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[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing?

[0:25] Pauls Macs: Our mission is to give you an inclusive look behind the scenes. We are interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time. This is your Backstage Pass.

[0:44] Pauls Macs: This is amazing. Katie, you're an animal. You are incredible.

[0:48] Pauls Macs: Oh my God, I didn't move the clothes into the dryer. Soon there will be mildew. Lucky us.

[0:55] Pauls Macs: That feels so good, Katie. Do you like it?

[0:57] Pauls Macs: Now my mind's on fungus, which reminds me to pick up mushrooms. And are we out of Alka-Seltzer Plus?

[1:03] Pauls Macs: So soft. I'm going to go fast now, okay?

[1:06] Pauls Macs: Time is flying by me and I never learned Italian, which grandma always begged for me to do.

[1:11] Pauls Macs: Yes, yes, Katie!

[1:13] Pauls Macs: She's looking down and asking, hey, what happened to Italian? And who's that guy on top of you?

[1:18] Pauls Macs: Oh!

[1:19] Pauls Macs: That is just my husband and

[1:21] Pauls Macs: Oh!

[1:22] Pauls Macs: This is just my life and

[1:24] Pauls Macs: Oh!

[1:26] Pauls Macs: Good parts come and go when you live as man and wife

[1:30] Pauls Macs: Oh!

[1:31] Pauls Macs: After a whole decade

[1:32] Pauls Macs: Oh!

[1:33] Pauls Macs: I've tallied the receipts. I know the bit where there's a deficit is here between the sheets

[1:41] Pauls Macs: Oh!

[1:42] Pauls Macs: Oh!

[1:43] Pauls Macs: Oh!

[1:44] Pauls Macs: Oh!

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[1:49] Pauls Macs: Oh!

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[1:59] Pauls Macs: Oh!

[2:00] Pauls Macs: That's it!

[2:01] Pauls Macs: Oh shit!

[2:02] Pauls Macs: No, no, no, no, no Oh shit!

[2:11] Pauls Macs: You're listening to Oh from the new musical Unzipped.

[2:15] Pauls Macs: Welcome back to part 2 of our conversation with Douglas J. Cohen and Eva Margolies about this courageous new musical.

[2:21] Pauls Macs: You'll hear two more songs from the show and we'll delve deeper into how attitudes towards sex therapy have evolved.

[2:27] Pauls Macs: Listen all the way to the end for a game where we decide which musical theater character would be our ideal sex therapist.

[2:33] Pauls Macs: If I could ask selfishly, I guess, a question, well, first off, I wanted to point out that I have very little knowledge of sex therapy, actually, before I read your piece.

[2:42] Pauls Macs: I can think of two moments in my life where I've kind of been exposed to that and I absolutely love that there's a quote from Dr. Drew from Loveline in your script because I remember staying up late at night, listening to the radio, feeling kind of naughty, listening to Dr. Drew and Adam Carolla on Loveline, but, you know, I just wanted to throw this out there that Dr. Drew, I hope you know who that is, said, Unzipped is an original, wild, and courageous musical, and I totally agree.

[3:05] Pauls Macs: That's the word I think of, courageous, that brings to life our need for intimate physical connection and vividly captures the controversial era of the sex therapy revolution.

[3:13] Pauls Macs: A provocative and entertaining story of a challenging subject. So I love that.

[3:17] Pauls Macs: It does marry. It's both provocative but also entertaining.

[3:19] Pauls Macs: The other exposure I've had to it was my favorite television series in the 2000s, I'll say, was a show called Boston Legal.

[3:24] Pauls Macs: Shout out to James Spader and William Shatner, Friends of the Pod.

[3:29] Pauls Macs: They're not friends yet. We're manifesting.

[3:31] Pauls Macs: We're manifesting that.

[3:32] Pauls Macs: But on the show, there was a series of episodes where there was a sex therapist.

[3:36] Pauls Macs: She was in a custody battle.

[3:37] Pauls Macs: She was divorcing her husband.

[3:39] Pauls Macs: The therapist was played by Jane Lynch of Glee fame.

[3:42] Pauls Macs: And Friend of the Pod.

[3:43] Pauls Macs: Friend of the Pod, Friend of the Pod, manifesting.

[3:45] Pauls Macs: But basically, it was a conversation about sex therapy that educated a lot of people because the father of the child basically said, oh, she can't be with her mother.

[3:54] Pauls Macs: Her mother's a prostitute.

[3:55] Pauls Macs: It was basically educating the audience about the benefits of sex therapy, what it's really like.

[3:59] Pauls Macs: I was so delighted, I guess I'll say, or so excited to be reintroduced to this subject through your show.

[4:05] Douglas J. Cohen: It was really fun to write.

[4:09] Douglas J. Cohen: It was fun to concoct these various twists and turns, some of which are really hilarious.

[4:16] Douglas J. Cohen: And it was great to have a resolution where all's well that ends well.

[4:22] Pauls Macs: What does that feel like? What does it feel like to hear about people's problems?

[4:26] Douglas J. Cohen: What does it feel like to help them fix their problems?

[4:30] Douglas J. Cohen: Which is, I have to say, from my personal experience, a life-changing kind of experience.

[4:36] Douglas J. Cohen: There was a lot of help that I gave to people who I know would not have had the lives that they went on to live had they not had sex therapy.

[4:45] Pauls Macs: Can you comment on how the attitudes towards sex therapy have changed and are in the modern era?

[4:51] Pauls Macs: My two points of reference are from like the 90s and the 2000s.

[4:55] Pauls Macs: I haven't really thought about it.

[4:56] Pauls Macs: I would imagine that it's something like we can more openly discuss it or it's more acceptable.

[5:02] Pauls Macs: But if there were any other insight that you were like, oh, this is how the conversation has really changed.

[5:05] Pauls Macs: I would be fascinated to hear your perspective, Eva.

[5:09] Eva Margolies: I think Dr. Ruth totally changed the conversation.

[5:13] Eva Margolies: Shout out Dr. Ruth.

[5:14] Eva Margolies: She was extremely knowledgeable, but just had this way of making everyone feel comfortable.

[5:20] Eva Margolies: And she spoke about sex matter-of-factly.

[5:22] Eva Margolies: She was terrific.

[5:24] Eva Margolies: And since Dr. Ruth, there have been many more shows, broadcasts about sex, sex therapy.

[5:32] Eva Margolies: But the other thing is even people like Phil Donahue, who I don't think many of your listeners will necessarily know who Phil Donahue was, but he brought a lot of these things to the forefront with his daily syndicated show that would interview people with a lot of very sensitive problems.

[5:48] Douglas J. Cohen: Wouldn't you say, Eva, that that was also a big factor in helping America to normalize some of these situations?

[5:55] Eva Margolies: Yeah.

[5:56] Eva Margolies: I think whenever people get public attention and are speaking about something, it takes the edge off.

[6:01] Eva Margolies: When I was touring the country, I got to speak all over the country, East Coast, West Coast, Middle America, South, exposing people to this in a way that hopefully made them feel comfortable.

[6:14] Eva Margolies: And I think that that does open the conversation.

[6:18] Eva Margolies: With that said, there seems to be a wave of conservatism where people are less inclined to talk about sex.

[6:25] Eva Margolies: Our hope is that we can open up the conversation again.

[6:31] Pauls Macs: I feel like that's a great way to sort of transition into Unzipped, which is when we meet some of these clients that Katie is working with, these men who are trying to see a sex therapist for various reasons.

[6:45] Pauls Macs: We learn through the song the reasons that someone might go to see a sex therapist and this particular anxieties that they have around sex.

[6:52] Pauls Macs: Do you want to talk a little more about what it was like to write this piece?

[6:55] Eva Margolies: Getting into the heads of these men was something that I'd been doing for a long time.

[7:03] Eva Margolies: So I kind of had a feeling about which problems I wanted to explore.

[7:10] Eva Margolies: Some of them are not the most common sexual problems that men have.

[7:14] Eva Margolies: So I wanted to not disqualify those people who had different problems because everybody knows about premature ejaculation and erectile dysfunction, but they don't necessarily know about some of these other things that plague men.

[7:27] Eva Margolies: We came up with the idea of three scenarios, three different types of patients.

[7:32] Eva Margolies: One, a very successful executive who's tall, handsome, but has a part of his body that is out of proportion to the rest of him and his shame about that.

[7:44] Eva Margolies: Another client we thought might be interesting to have a Latino because those men are especially ashamed if they're not macho.

[7:52] Eva Margolies: And we wanted to show that men can explore help no matter what their background is.

[8:02] Eva Margolies: And his problem is inexperience.

[8:05] Eva Margolies: He's 30 years old, he's a virgin, and he's a little bit delusional about his looks.

[8:10] Eva Margolies: And then finally, we end with an older man married to a younger wife who's having stamina problems with her.

[8:18] Eva Margolies: And even though he's well-to-do, it doesn't make up for the fact that he can't be with her the way that he would like to, the way that she would like him to, which actually translates into her wishing that he were 25 as opposed to 60.

[8:33] Douglas J. Cohen: So I want to just add that in terms of writing, this was probably the toughest song, I believe, that we took on because Eva had a very particular high bar for this song.

[8:46] Douglas J. Cohen: I think the fact that the title song was huge, you know, we want a good title song.

[8:51] Douglas J. Cohen: I just remember this was during the pandemic.

[8:53] Douglas J. Cohen: And I was like going out of my mind writing so many different hooks, so many things that I put in front of her.

[8:59] Douglas J. Cohen: And she would say, not quite it, not quite it.

[9:04] Douglas J. Cohen: And then we had one version that we actually decided was good.

[9:08] Douglas J. Cohen: And then I wrote it and she said, I don't like it.

[9:12] Pauls Macs: Oh, man.

[9:13] Douglas J. Cohen: But that's communication, right?

[9:15] Douglas J. Cohen: That's what this is all about.

[9:17] Eva Margolies: Collaboration.

[9:18] Pauls Macs: Yeah.

[9:19] Eva Margolies: Well, the other tricky thing about this song lyrically was that we wanted to make the song funny, but we needed to be very careful for the audience to not feel as if we were making fun of anybody.

[9:31] Eva Margolies: Absolutely.

[9:33] Eva Margolies: The thing you were saying earlier, that people are not shamed in this musical.

[9:37] Eva Margolies: And yet, and yet the people that have the problems seem to have a sense of humor about it.

[9:43] Eva Margolies: So they use that sometimes as a defense mechanism.

[9:49] Eva Margolies: If I can make light of it, that somehow the problem isn't as serious.

[9:53] Eva Margolies: So we do have those moments where they kind of laugh at themselves, but we know that it's more painful than what they represent or present.

[10:03] Douglas J. Cohen: Actually after the New York Theater Barn showcase, a few men came up to us and said, I'm that person.

[10:09] Douglas J. Cohen: And it was interesting.

[10:11] Douglas J. Cohen: And they said they felt totally open to hearing about it because they feel underrepresented.

[10:19] Eva Margolies: But that's good that they came up to the sex therapist.

[10:22] Douglas J. Cohen: No, I mean, the right person to talk to.

[10:25] Douglas J. Cohen: But also what a powerful moment for you or what a courageous moment for them to share that with you.

[10:31] Douglas J. Cohen: And what a transformative moment for musical theater, that it's still changing people's lives.

[10:37] Pauls Macs: We'll talk about changing people's lives in the next song, that they would feel comfortable enough to share that with you is really fantastic.

[10:43] Eva Margolies: It is.

[10:44] Douglas J. Cohen: It was.

[10:45] Pauls Macs: Well, who is performing this song?

[10:47] Douglas J. Cohen: So here we have again, as Katie, the ubiquitous Kirsten Scott, Chandler Sinks, Pablo Torres.

[10:54] Pauls Macs: Yeah.

[10:55] Douglas J. Cohen: Adam Grupper, who's a veteran of Broadway and off-Broadway.

[10:58] Douglas J. Cohen: He was just in Joy.

[10:59] Douglas J. Cohen: And so these are three wonderful performers.

[11:02] Douglas J. Cohen: We're very blessed to get them.

[11:04] Pauls Macs: Here is Unzipped performed by Kirsten Scott, Chandler Sinks, Pablo Torres, and Adam Grupper.

[11:10] ♪ Musical number: "Unzipped" — performed by Kirsten Scott, Chandler Sinks, Pablo Torres, and Adam Grupper ♪

[11:15] Douglas J. Cohen: I guess it takes a lot of courage to show up and say, help me.

[11:19] Douglas J. Cohen: Look, it's the problem of being tall.

[11:22] Douglas J. Cohen: There's no part of you allowed to be small.

[11:25] Douglas J. Cohen: Anatomically, I'm like a Ken doll.

[11:27] Douglas J. Cohen: Not at all what women expect.

[11:28] Douglas J. Cohen: Let me show you.

[11:29] Douglas J. Cohen: I thought that's what we did here.

[11:30] Douglas J. Cohen: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Rob.

[11:30] Douglas J. Cohen: No, in your surrogate sessions, you'll explore these things.

[11:33] Douglas J. Cohen: Here we just talk.

[11:35] Douglas J. Cohen: Well, fine.

[11:37] Douglas J. Cohen: When you take off your three-piece suit, you don't want to hear, my, it's cute.

[11:42] Douglas J. Cohen: So 1-800-HOT-GIRLS is where I connect.

[11:46] Douglas J. Cohen: Mom, I'm sure the problem isn't as big as you think.

[11:49] Douglas J. Cohen: I mean, as bad as, it's not just the size of the boat, it's how you sail it.

[11:56] Douglas J. Cohen: You just don't get it.

[11:58] Douglas J. Cohen: Unzipped and ill-equipped, sex becomes a horror, and I'm the star of the show.

[12:07] Douglas J. Cohen: Your average Joe has more below.

[12:10] Douglas J. Cohen: Sadly, I don't rank.

[12:14] Douglas J. Cohen: They want kielbasa, but they get a cocktail frank.

[12:22] Douglas J. Cohen: My fragile ego's stripped, and they're tight-lipped when I'm unzipped.

[12:35] Douglas J. Cohen: I've got the holy trinity, looks, brains, and masculinity, but still I have my...

[12:43] ♪ Musical number: "Unzipped" — performed by Kirsten Scott, Chandler Sinks, Pablo Torres, and Adam Grupper ♪

[16:55] Eva Margolies: Kind of as she's discovering why it's so important. I think she's empathizing more with Donald, understanding how men with... who can't satisfy their partners, how much they suffer. And it is one of those things, too, I think, where the expectation for men to be Casanovas, to be experienced, to, you know, have this dominant role in sex, and have that be something that they're, like, an expectation they're not fulfilling, is definitely something that, yes, like, the song does present it in a very funny way, but it helps with making sure that I think talking about the men and their experiences first and then getting into the women who actually assist with the sex therapy I think was very smart.

I really love that this song transitions into a dance number between the patients and the assistants who, you know, they are teaching them through dance, which, again, this idea of, like, music and sex therapy and dance and theater and how that all sort of intermingles together. You know, it's just so true, speaking very openly, you know, speaking in drafts as a man, the one I'm most familiar with is the pressure to make your partner orgasm. In movies, in television, this idea that if you can't make your partner cum, then you're somehow not a man, that you're a failure. And then the whole idea of if your partner's faking it, there's so much of your self-esteem that's tied up into your sexual identity.

And to move past that, to have that discussion of it's more than that, you know, that's what Donald is experiencing. The way that Katie's journey with her sex therapy, her practice, then is able to help her relationship with her own husband, Donald, grow. And I see even more now through our conversation how those two things are so closely intertwined throughout the entire show.

[18:40] Douglas J. Cohen: Yeah, it defines the masculine role, really, in many ways. The song "Unzipped" is kind of angst sent to music, because there's this cry for help. Where the song builds, they are no longer intimating, they're demanding, in a sense, relief and release from their problems. And so it does, I hope, as you just said, Pals, that it sets up the male counterpart in this equation, because we certainly know Katie's point of view, but through these men, I think we get to better understand Donald. Also, I'd like to say that the end of the song is an expression of what Doug just said, because there are two lines, "I'm through pretending," meaning they no longer want to hide what's happening, "I'm through pretending, oh, where's my happy ending?" Which double entendre yet again.

[19:31] Eva Margolies: Absolutely. Yes, that's what we try to do, because they're expressing all this angst, after that there's a laugh. It was fun. It's fun for you, it's fun for us. So, the three assistants. When you do sex therapy, most of the time, you see a couple. And you work with them, you send them home to do homework assignments to resolve their problem. But what about all the men who don't have a partner or a cooperative partner to work with? You can't solve these problems reading a book. You can't overcome performance anxiety reading a book or by yourself. And so there's a modality within sex therapy called surrogate-assisted therapy. And it's a very structured program where the steps that you would work with, with a couple up to a certain point at least, are similar steps, where they're learning to relax, where they're learning to focus, learning to be in sync with their partners.

Many people say, isn't that like prostitution? They bear no similarities. Prostitutes get paid for a service. Sex-assisted sex surrogates, sex surrogate partners, get paid to help males solve their problems. And I got to tell you that when I worked with surrogates at times, men were really anxious for their therapy to be done. It was not fun. It's not let's go in and have some kind of crazy sexual experience. It was kind of boring because sex therapy in a sense is boring. It's a step-by-step process, learning to breathe, learning to relax, learning to focus on what you're feeling in your body, learning how to communicate with your partner, all of these things that are critical to sexual function but that men need to learn in a not very interesting way.

[21:23] Douglas J. Cohen: One of the things I wanted to do was to make sure that people understood this was quite a different type of job. It's not one that everybody would take, but having nothing to do with prostitution. There's an international surrogate association, IPSA. They know what they're doing. They're trained. They're trained by a sex therapist, but they know what they're doing. And sometimes they would present information to me about noticing a patient who would hold his breath at a certain point, for example, that very much helped guide me in terms of the instructions for the next session. With that said, there are a lot of boundaries, no kissing, no exchanging of fluids. So it's like a therapist who is vulnerable enough to expose that part of herself for the purpose of helping people. It's used widely for people of disability who have disabilities. And so I find these women and what they do profoundly interesting and profoundly courageous.

[22:31] Eva Margolies: Yeah. I think it also relates back to this idea that sex is not always about orgasm and sex is not always about finishing. When you go into sex therapy, it's the idea of when you strip away that end goal or when you strip away sort of like the carnal pleasure or release of it, and you're actually getting to the work, to the therapy more than the sex. I mean, yeah, a lot of people are like, I want this to be over. I want to be able to be fixed. I don't want to deal with this anymore because what you're doing is you're sitting in your own discomfort, the thing that's causing the problem. I think especially when it comes to something like sex that we sort of convince ourselves, we're like, oh, we're animals.

This is natural. We do this right. That it does make you feel like a part of you is innately broken or that you're doing something wrong. I think there's something really beautiful about the fact that these women in this story, you know what they're doing is they really are holding like these very vulnerable parts of these men and being able to create a space in which they can safely kind of like take the mask of the masculinity off and really figure out what's going on.

[23:35] Douglas J. Cohen: Right. And I think that them feeling the reward of that work led to this very beautiful song that you wrote. Would you mind telling us a little more about "Healers"?

[23:43] Eva Margolies: My personal favorites actually. And it's sort of the song that I think of as being the heart of the show. In many ways, it really does attempt to let us into the mindset and soul of the people that are these healers, these people that we tend to judge, but we don't really think about what their ultimate end game is. It's a lot of it is about changing the lives of the people that they come in contact with. I probably gave away the song a little bit by saying that, but these are people that are sometimes misunderstood or are misrepresented, or we tend to just think of them in very stereotypical ways. And I think Eva gave me this lyric and it was a lovely lyric that really does get inside their minds and hearts.

[24:37] Douglas J. Cohen: Yeah. It was a song that made me appreciate why I chose Doug as a collaborator because it's a heartfelt song. And so the music that he wrote, I thought completely got the emotional tenor of what I wanted to say. And it was also, I thought provocative in the sense that people do all kinds of things in this life that they think are super duper important. So you might be the president of a company or you might have some sort of big job. And yet these women had this sense of being able to change people's lives, which isn't something that everybody feels they are able to do or that they do do in their lives.

[25:24] Pauls Macs: This song does feel like the heart of the show. Absolutely, Doug. Who is performing "Healers"?

[25:30] Douglas J. Cohen: So once again, we have Kirsten Scott, E.J. Zimmerman, and Talia Balucci.

[25:35] Pauls Macs: I'm really excited to share this one with the audience, and we'll talk more about it on the other side, because I have a few things to say. Here is "Healers," performed by Kirsten Scott, E.J. Zimmerman, and Talia Balucci.

[M:SS] ♪ Musical number: "Healers" — performed by Kirsten Scott, E.J. Zimmerman, and Talia Balucci ♪

[29:03] Pauls Macs: That was so lovely. And Eva, what you said earlier really resonates. You said that these people are so, I think you said profoundly interesting or profoundly courageous, and they're fascinating. Learning about them, truly hearing why they do this work. I've told you that I have listened to or been exposed to some sex therapy, but I've never truly understood the perspective of why someone would engage in that work. And that's what the song accomplishes. And I think it also validates the fact that men who have sexual problems and who don't have partners or cooperative partners to work with deserve to be acknowledged. Without this particular form of treatment, they'd fall through the cracks.

[29:43] Eva Margolies: Absolutely. I also feel like we really fall in love with these women throughout the course of the show. With Takimi, Ramona, Lila, they're all so different. I really appreciated that it's women from all these different walks of life and experiences, and that they didn't really expect this is where they were going to be, but that they found something very rewarding in their own plan B. This was no one in the story's ideal or first choice, but it was something that they found that they were able to get satisfaction and joy out of doing, out of being a healer, of being of service. And I think that's really wonderful.

[30:23] Douglas J. Cohen: It really is wonderful. And they also know going in that this isn't going to be their life's career. And so it's a plan B, but they know that they have a plan C. So very few people do this work for a really long time. And they talk a little bit very specifically, I'm going to quote some lyrics at you, but when you're naked in a room with a stranger who doesn't care about some flab or any ugly scar, it's a special feeling knowing you're accepted as you are. For example, if they could take someone who's very focused on outcome-based sexual activity and help them see, no, it's more about actually connecting with your partner. And if you get so focused on that, you might drive them away. And then through that process, they find fulfillment and maybe even some healing. That's what this song really showed me. And I think that's why Doug, you're correct. I think it's the heart of the show. And they're being healed as they're healing their clients in some ways.

[31:18] Pauls Macs: When they were doing the work, their physical appearance was not very important. They were not raving beauties. They came in all shapes and sizes. I remember one woman was about six feet, and she was just a big, just a big woman. Nobody objected to her. The only people they objected to were people who they felt were not helping. And so I found that very interesting. You know, you don't get shoes and say, well, I like the way this one looks. I don't like the way that one looks. It doesn't work that way, because that's not the dynamic that helps people.

[31:56] Douglas J. Cohen: And we circle around saying this, but that last lyric that's so powerful, but not everyone on earth can say, I changed a life. I changed a life today. That's something I think that carries into theater, too. You know, we all strive for that, at least, that in any artistic form, we want the possibility of transformation, which is what Katie is after in the show and what Donald, ultimately, their relationship is transformed. And that's, I think, what the power of theater, the power of art is, is the possibility of change.

[32:26] Eva Margolies: Oh, Doug, I totally agree with you. I've never shared my artistic statement on the podcast before, but I am primarily a director, actually. I direct work that's designed to offer healing to the audience. You know, I'm not proclaiming that I can heal them through my work in any sort of way, but what I've learned as I've been making work through that lens is that the work can only be really successful if I'm myself, I'm getting healed through that work as well. So that transformational experience on both ends, you're right, there is a symmetry there with theater. And that might be the perfect segue, actually, to our theatrical nerdy game that we always play, our fan favorite segment. Teresa, do you want to walk us through the game this episode?

[33:07] Teresa Attridge: Yes, this is the first time, Barnacles, I did not think of the name right before. So for right now, I'm going to call it off the top of my head, drum roll, please. It's going to be called Text Therapist.

[33:19] Pauls Macs: No, I love it. I love it. Which we all need because we've all been in horrible text sessions. Also, I think at the end of the day, these surrogate performers, are they not sort of like the tech people that are helping us perform? So this is also about the people who are coming in to support. And I'm always going to support the tech crew and how they support the performers. So that's what I feel like these assistants are doing. So the game is, if you had to pick a musical theater character to be your sex therapist, who would you pick? Now I had two for this one. My first one was Lola from Damn Yankees. Because what Lola wants, Lola gets, and I feel like we can all learn from that sort of sense of confidence and self-assertion and like stepping into your sexuality. But my other one was Captain Von Trapp because he has nine kids and something is working there.

[34:12] Douglas J. Cohen: There we go. Doug, Eva, do you have answers to this question?

[34:20] Eva Margolies: What came to mind was I forget the name of the character, but Julie Andrews came to mind either as Eliza.

[34:25] Douglas J. Cohen: Oh my gosh, Mary Poppins as a sex therapist is just Dr. Ruth.

[34:29] Pauls Macs: That's where my actually crossed my mind as well. Mary Poppins is a great choice. She's a great listener. You know, and she seems to have a solution for everything. She's very encouraging.

[34:39] Douglas J. Cohen: I would confide.

[34:41] Pauls Macs: Yeah, she also has that.

[34:42] Douglas J. Cohen: And she has that black bag.

[34:43] Pauls Macs: That's exactly what I was going to say. God knows. God knows what the sex toys are in that bag.

[34:48] Douglas J. Cohen: I, my mind automatically went there.

[34:51] Eva Margolies: Teresa, we are on the same wavelength.

[34:52] Douglas J. Cohen: Doug and I are right here.

[34:54] Pauls Macs: Oh man. Oh my gosh, that I'm blushing. Doug, is that the perfect time for you to answer this question? Voice is getting higher as we continue talking.

[35:02] Douglas J. Cohen: Hell, that's okay. This is about communication. Talking about sex destigmatizes it. I'm almost ashamed to tell you that my knee jerk reaction and there's so many, I, you know, I've loved musicals since I was two years old, but the person I thought of was Professor Harold Hill. And I know that he's something of a charlatan, but think about it. He does know the territory. He seems to break down people's defenses. He finds common ground, which unites people, right? I mean, Mary and the librarian is frigid. And by the end of the show, she is really into him. And she is like no longer a bookworm. She's leaving with her heart. She's leaving with her passion. He's getting, awakens the passion in the town, in the kids expressing themselves through music. I just think he'd be a great therapist.

[35:51] Pauls Macs: A facilitator of many types.

[35:53] Douglas J. Cohen: Get rid of the other part. Yes, a facilitator. That's it. It's that's it. So I'm going with Harold Hill.

[35:58] Pauls Macs: All right. And Pauls, what about you?

[36:00] Pauls Macs: There was one character that came to mind, and that is Dolly Levi from Hello, Dolly.

[36:07] Douglas J. Cohen: Oh my God, incredible answer. I love Dolly Levi. She was an answer last time too. She's having a moment.

[36:14] Pauls Macs: Hello, Dolly is my favorite Golden Age musical. I just think it's just so wonderful. But there's something in that show that I find is often missed. It really is about a person who's learning to live again, who is struggling to get past her first marriage. And you know, while she's helping all these people in the show, she herself is finding her own healing. I just feel like with her life experience, that I could talk with her and confide in her. And she could help me if I was struggling, learn to live again, or explore again, or get out there and try again. That's my answer.

[36:45] Eva Margolies: I love that.

[36:46] Pauls Macs: And you get to walk down that great red staircase with her.

[36:49] Douglas J. Cohen: I'll put on some Sunday clothes. I'll be in my best, you know.

[36:52] Pauls Macs: In fact, I think it's now canonical that all those waiters singing "Hello, Dolly" were her former clients.

[36:59] Douglas J. Cohen: That's perfect.

[37:01] Pauls Macs: That's why they know her name. And they're like, that's why they're all doing like having a great time. They're also well adjusted, all those waiters.

[37:10] Douglas J. Cohen: Also, you know, she's been met, you know, she's experienced.

[37:12] Pauls Macs: Well Doug, Eva, thank you again for being here for sharing "Unzipped" with us. Such a great discussion that I can say with confidence is unlike any other discussion we've ever had on this podcast.

[37:22] Douglas J. Cohen: Thank you for inviting us. We really had a great time.

[37:25] Eva Margolies: Fun is what we go for.

[37:27] Pauls Macs: Absolutely. We can't wait for the Barnacles to hear your piece. We're so excited for them to listen.

[37:31] Pauls Macs: Barnacles, thank you for listening. We'll see you again.

[37:34] All: Goodbye, Barnacles.

[37:40] Pauls Macs: Thanks for joining us on New York Theatre Barn's Backstage Pass hosted by Teresa Attridge and Pauls Macs. And if you believe in supporting original culture-shifting musicals, please like, subscribe, and share.