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[1:24] Teresa Attridge: Welcome back to Part 2 of our conversation with Mike Ross and Dylan MarcAurele about this hilarious and informative new musical.

[1:31] Pauls Macs: You'll hear two more songs from the show, and we'll learn more about the writers' creative process.

[1:35] Teresa Attridge: Listen all the way to the end for a game where we decide which musical theater characters we take on a Lewis and Clark style expedition.

[1:41] Pauls Macs: And you'll also learn what happens next for Lewis Loves Clark.

[1:45] Mike Ross: You know, when we talk about sort of like where Lewis has started and where the story is starting, like we are dealing with like very heavy themes of depression, right? Like we, one, yes, we start with preventing a suicide, but two, we start with a very sad man drinking in a bar alone. So, I mean, we're really, we're really starting with like the heavy hitting moments here.

[2:02] Mike Ross: Even for a show that has like such a lively and fun and upbeat score. I mean, we're not shying away from these like bigger, sadder themes. Everyone's kind of starting in not the best place. I don't think we meet anyone and we're like, they're doing great during this musical. But famously, as like one of history's most beloved alcoholics, why did we choose to start Lewis in that environment?

[2:23] Mike Ross: And I would just add that, you know, I did read Undaunted Courage. There are these revered figures around the Pacific Northwest. But as I was learning about your show, I was thinking to myself, have I ever known this character? Have I ever known this person? This person is probably actually a mystery to me. I learned so much from the letters that you included in the script, but also music is its own language.

[2:45] Mike Ross: When I heard Drunk Sober, at least in your show, maybe not necessarily the real Meriwether Lewis, but at least in your show, I felt I suddenly understood this character. So if you could set up Drunk Sober, that would be fantastic.

[2:56] Dylan MarcAurele: This is another one where we had a different draft. Originally, it was going to be a song called The Great Unknown. It was more of an upbeat like Disney thing of like, I want to explore the great unknown. The Great Unknown really is so great. Dylan alluded to, this started as a much sillier show. It was originally called Bill and Meriwether's Excellent Adventure.

[3:11] Dylan MarcAurele: And once we shifted into like, Lewis loves Clarkland, we were like, we need to go back to the drawing board on this. What does Lewis actually want? And like, how do we show that he's in a bad place where he's desperate for something? Because that is how it feels when you read the history. Part of the reason Jefferson sent him on this expedition is he was worried about Lewis. He was like, Lewis was kind of his adopted like secretary slash son.

[3:31] Dylan MarcAurele: And Jefferson was like, you're very smart, but you are in my house all the time. And sometimes you are very sad. And I know that your dad died of being drunk and sad. And like, I don't necessarily want to see that happen to you. I do not have that extreme a history of depression and alcoholism in my family. But I have definitely had phases of my life where I have felt like Lewis where I'm not getting out of the house. I am drinking. I am wasting my days.

[3:54] Dylan MarcAurele: At least that's what my head is feeling like. And alternatively, the idea of distracting yourself by keeping crazy busy, which is ultimately Lewis's way out of it. Yes. He's like, how can I get this fixed? Not that he has this language. How can I get the good, clean dopamine without doom scrolling on Instagram? So those aren't lyrics. Crazy. And so we open on him in the bar.

[4:16] Mike Ross: And the other nice thing about setting it up with he wants the feeling of being drunk without actually having to get drunk and ruin his life. Then you have this great musical idiom of, OK, maybe he's in a bar. Maybe it's a drinking song. Maybe it's like a fun. Dylan was talking about trying to find variation with an Americana. I remember the prompt that I gave to him. This is another music first one.

[4:34] Mike Ross: So I was like, can we get a melody that is kind of like when Taylor Swift was doing red and pretending not to go pop, but like was trying to go. And like was pretending to be country and pop at the same time. And it somehow you're speaking my language right now. Mike and Dylan, you're speaking to me back. This amazing thing that is country and is pop and is arousing drinking song and is sad.

[4:53] Mike Ross: And I was like, perfect. And I started writing to that. There is a precursor here. And that was the very first thing he said. And the entire song for me like exploded out of that. I was like, oh, I know exactly what that is. And that this is Lewis's I Want Some, Drunk Sober.

[5:06] Pauls Macs: All right. Here's Drunk Sober performed by Dylan MarcAurele.

[5:09] ♪ Musical number: "Drunk Sober" — performed by Dylan MarcAurele ♪

[8:26] Mike Ross: Okay, first of all, Noah Conhue. Noah Conhue, we're drunk. We're sad. We're vaguely on the East Coast. Come on.

[8:35] Dylan MarcAurele: That is right.

[8:36] Mike Ross: This song has so many contradictions in it. In fact, drunk sober, I just thought, sorry, grateful. I know you listed Stephen Sondheim as a reference. The role Kermit the Frog was born to play, but I digress.

[8:48] Mike Ross: But it's so much fun while discussing such serious stakes and such a serious problem. I want to feel good when I'm sober, but I just can't. And yet the melody is so, like, I could just sing it all day. That contradiction within the piece is just really, really interesting.

[9:02] Pauls Macs: From personal experience, is the song more fun to sing drunk or sober? You don't have to answer that.

[9:08] Dylan MarcAurele: Unfortunately, I have only sung it stone cold sober in my apartment into that microphone over there.

[9:14] Pauls Macs: All right. We're all hanging out. We're changing. It's a drinking game.

[9:16] Dylan MarcAurele: It's funny you ask, though, because I run every song that we write together through what I call the Marie's test, which is like, can I imagine a bunch of drunk people singing this together at Marie's? And if it's not, then it's not clean enough or not picky enough. And this is one where I was like, we did it. We hit a Marie's song. We did it.

[9:32] Mike Ross: If someone out there doesn't know, you're talking about Marie's Crisis, the bar in New York where everyone goes and sings musical theater songs. That's correct, Mike?

[9:39] Mike Ross: Correct. Yeah.

[9:40] Mike Ross: It is piano karaoke, but we all sing together. It is, I think, the closest we'll get to world peace.

[9:49] Teresa Attridge: I try to be the avatar for the listeners who don't live in New York and might not know all the musical theater lingo that we sometimes take for granted.

[9:57] Pauls Macs: Thank you for your service.

[9:58] Dylan MarcAurele: I just wrote down these lyrics. I don't know what happens in heads.

[10:02] Mike Ross: ...or in homes, or in beds, where it all feels okay, and for Lewis to share that, that's his problem. He's trying to feel okay, but he can't when he's sober. And so he tries to solve it by going on this wild expedition with his best friend. It communicates the problem of the character very, very clearly.

[10:21] Dylan MarcAurele: Yeah. It's also, I feel like musically the fact that it is such a bop, that's the thing is we're trying to capture the feeling of something good with something that's innately bad, right? I think anybody who has or knows somebody who has had a drinking problem, like straight up, not like a fun drinking problem, quote unquote, but like someone who's dealing with depression and addiction, is that you are not just chasing this idea of feeling better, you are avoiding feeling worse.

[10:45] Mike Ross: Absolutely. And I feel like, I feel so much of this in this song. Also sidebar, at the NAMT conference, we actually do, I don't really, I haven't really talked about this on the podcast yet, but each year I attend the NAMT conference where you go and you meet with all these different administrators from theaters across the country.

[11:04] Dylan MarcAurele: Yeah, it's a nerdier Comic Con.

[11:06] Mike Ross: It's nerdier Comic Con, because it's only focused on musical theater, but not even just musical theater, but like the business of running a musical theater in the United States, as well as the artistic nature of running the theater in the United States. We actually did a breakout panel about marketing, and we were discussing the best titles of all the shows at NAMT, and Lewis Loves Clark was unanimously agreed to be the best title because it just like captures the cultural awareness of Lewis and Clark, and then subverts it in such an interesting way, the audience is instantly intrigued and wants to know more. So kudos on changing the title.

[11:35] Dylan MarcAurele: Thank you. Kudos.

[11:37] Mike Ross: We've had these great, great character songs, The Drunk Sober for Lewis, we've had Second Juweia's Lullaby. Now I'd love to hear more about William Clark. Can you please talk about the song?

[11:46] Dylan MarcAurele: I go either way.

[11:48] Mike Ross: Oh, William.

[11:49] Dylan MarcAurele: Or Billy Clark.

[11:52] Mike Ross: Yes. This was, again, based on a true moment, the only disagreement Lewis and Clark ever had in the entire expedition was they get to this river that forks, and they don't know which one is most likely to lead to the Northwest Passage. And they really dithered over this, and Clark especially dithered. And one of the things I most wanted to capture, both when it was just about, you know, Silly Gay Crush and beyond that, is the thing about the gay crush that keeps you holding on, and then also the thing about life that keeps you holding on when you don't know whether you should give up or not, is every once in a while you feel like you get this thing back where you're like, wait, hold on. Is this possible?

Could this be possible? What if this could happen? But then the next day, they're like, well, obviously not. I have a girlfriend, you know, and you're like, right, right, right, right, right, right. And I wanted to kind of put that feeling in a song to taunt Lewis as much as possible so that you really feel him going through it in a way that is very funny. And by this point, Clark hasn't really had a big establishing song about like who he is and what his identity is. And Clark's sin as filtered through Lewis Loves Clark is indecision about gigantic decisions that should be so clear and black and white and easy to anyone. And the fact that it is hard for him is already pretty damning. That gets explored more seriously in Act Two, but in Act One, we really have this opportunity to set it up in a funny way. And all of those things together go into I Could Go Either Way.

[13:05] Mike Ross: This is you singing as well, Dylan.

[13:07] Dylan MarcAurele: Yes.

[13:08] Mike Ross: All right. Here is I Could Go Either Way, performed by Dylan MarcAurele.

[13:11] ♪ Musical number: "I Could Go Either Way" — performed by Dylan MarcAurele ♪

[17:00] Mike Ross: Thank you to Michael Kocera as well, NAMMT's casting agent, for suggesting him and pushing for him and being absolutely right. Sam blew the doors off the building with this song in a way that I've been so nervous going up to it. I was like, that's so many words. So many of the words are ridiculous. How it's not fair of us to ask a person to try and sell this ridiculous, unwieldy song. He just nailed it. If you can sell a beaver joke, you're in.

[17:23] Dylan MarcAurele: Speaking of those words, yes, the prospect of the ocean does excite a strong emotion, and I long to gaze on some bewitching bay with swarthy sailors from the south and something salty in my mouth where often not is the thought on which I pray. Work. Also, what is it? I think it's like a box or two that I didn't mind being in. There's so many things in this that I look at and I'm like, that's exactly it. That it means almost the most to hear out of anything that's been said today. You mentioned that this is a song where it was like lyrics and then music, and I'm actually really curious for your writing process when you have that kind of collaboration, how often are lyrics first and music second or vice versa?

Do you find that you've had like a pretty even relationship with that? Doesn't lean more one the other? Do you send like voice notes of like this is kind of the melody or rhythm I was thinking, or do you leave it solely and openly to Dylan to interpret as he will?

[18:10] Mike Ross: So we used to do pretty much exclusively. I would write basically a poem and I would set it to music, and that was really the way we did things for a while. And then we were pushed through a little bit through BMI, which I made a brief appearance in and then in DGF to do music first as a way to create more musical diversity and more from the gut kind of writing. It just so happens that a song like this, a patter song tends to work really well lyric first because it's just so dense. And then I kind of just put a little bit of a Gilbert and Sullivan meets bluegrass kind of hoedown vibe on top of it. It is true that since DGF, we've been experimenting more with music first. We'll agree on a hook in advance and I will describe to him like three or four genres I'm thinking of, but also like solicit to him.

Are you thinking of anything else? Is there anything you want to talk about? You've sent me as many as like six or eight ideas before, and I'll go through and I'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that one, that one or like can we twist the knob to the right on this? And I do think it has made some of our best work since then, and I'm really excited about it. So thank you to the Dramatist Guild Fellows. Any writers listening, do apply. Such a good program.

[19:24] Dylan MarcAurele: This is basically just like a really long ad. I mean, truly, we have been so lucky with these incubators. NAMT, which Pals has referred to a bunch of times, and Dramatist Guild Fellows, as well as the Rogers. These things have been huge game changers for us. That is because the people running them really put their time and energy where their mouth is and give you the Zoom meetings and the question and answer sessions and the resources that you actually need to get stuff started when you don't know how to get anything started. And now New York Theatre Barn, that I know runs this podcast, is giving us this Barn on Fire residency this June, where we will get to do some of this dramaturgical work for 10 days. You know, they'll be feeding us. They'll be giving us lots of time to work on the writing. Thank you, New York Theatre Barn, if you are listening to this podcast. And you're welcome.

[20:02] Mike Ross: They are. We're listening. I know you're very welcome.

[20:05] Pauls Macs: No involvement other than the podcast. You're welcome. Yeah, this is all I do. No, you're gonna have an amazing time on Fire Island. Teresa is born on fire alumni and can tell you how great it is. It rules. Well, my friends, I think we've been on this incredible journey together. And I think we're coming to the end of our journey. But before we end our journey, what is that I see on the horizon? Is it a game? I believe it is. Oh, my goodness. Do you want to set this up? Game Master Teresa?

[20:31] Teresa Attridge: Sure thing. This is onward! Exclamation point. The musical, the game. As we know, famously, it takes a village to get from North Dakota all the way to the Pacific Northwest. Lewis had Clark and Lewis and Clark had Sacagawea and Lewis and Clark and Sacagawea had York and so on and so forth. So for this game today, if you are going to make your crew to go on an expedition of musical theater characters, you can only pick from the musical theater canon. Who are you taking with you on an expedition to new and exciting places? Who do you choose? I think we said two, but you can find we said two because it's Lewis and Clark. But like, listen, I'm not going to stop you. An adventure is an adventure.

There's an other category, right? The Fellowship of the Ring was nine, which leads into my answer, which is I'm bringing Aragorn because Aragorn is a ranger is aware of like plants and the earth can hunt gonna shoot me a deer gonna sing me a song about Baron and Luthien gonna keep spirits up while also keeping us alive. That's my pragmatic choice. I am going to bring Elwoods. Elwoods is my second pick. I'm bringing Elwoods and I'm bringing Aragorn one because I want to see what any conversation between the two of those people are like.

[21:43] Mike Ross: I knew you're gonna bring Elwoods. I knew it. I knew it. I knew I've been avoiding saying Elwoods as my answer for weeks when she's the perfect answer to every prompt. But one of the other reasons I bring Elwoods is one I think that L is very resourceful. I think L is very positive. I think L is very much focused on the idea of learning and reciprocating bigger ideas and supporting others. I think that you want someone who's going to be a positive team player invested in sort of learning about everything that's going on. And you want the hardened grizzled, I'm going to make sure we stay alive. And then L is like, I'm going to make sure we have a reason to feel alive.

[22:18] Pauls Macs: I love that is inspiring. Go. And so well said and I initially was like, Oh, really? Elwoods again, but the way you defended it, I fully accept that that's the right answer.

[22:28] Mike Ross: I'm an Elwoods defender to the day I die.

[22:30] Dylan MarcAurele: And she is technically an Elwoods defender as well, depending on if she's prosecuting or if she's, you know, working for the defense. So would you like to go? Or would you like me to go?

[22:40] Pauls Macs: I would love it. I think that would be so cool. Absolutely. All right. Well, here are my choices. My first is a little bit of a cheat. But I decided Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz at any time she clicks those heels together and says there's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place like home. I'm gonna like jump and grab onto her and she's gonna transform me back. So that's kind of my loophole answer. But if magic isn't acceptable for this answer, or that's not a thing in the reality that I'm in, then I also chose Timon and Pumbaa because apparently talking animals are within this reality that I've chosen for myself. Absolutely. Because Hakuna Matata, they'd help me feel good.

They'd help me feel positive as I'm on this journey. But also from a very practical standpoint, they'd help me know which bugs I could eat to stay alive. If it really came down to survival, a problem free philosophy, but also like both the characters, all three of the characters you've named are famous for journeys. Dorothy went all the way, you know, in a foreign land and back and made it kind of a colonist mindset, you know, killed some of the locals, which is not great, but did survive, which is it sounds like your goal here. And then Timon and Pumbaa. Also, we see them go on a vast journey. You know, they've survived out in the middle of nowhere. I think it's a practical as well as an emotionally sound pick.

[23:47] Mike Ross: Yeah. And Simba who ran the whole way back to Pride Rock didn't even notice they were right behind. Yeah. Like those are trackers, baby. I don't know how they kept up and how Simba didn't notice them. But that's, that's absolutely a seminal. Fantastic. Dig a tunnel. Perfect opening. I've never seen that one. But everyone, it's not the first time.

[24:10] Dylan MarcAurele: I yeah, Harrison and I think talked a little too much about Lion King one and a half. I think it was like one of the big formative musicals for me just totally being honest.

[24:18] Mike Ross: Legitimately. I like it. Yeah. 100%.

[24:20] Pauls Macs: All right, Mike, Dylan, you got to stop stalling. You got some answers? Or we can we can figure it out.

[24:25] Dylan MarcAurele: I can go Mike, do you have?

[24:29] Mike Ross: Dylan's leaping in.

[24:30] Dylan MarcAurele: Oh, I have a like, boring answer. And then I have a more fun answer. My boring answer is Elphaba because she's magic. And absolutely. She's a broom. She's very determined. And she Elkanamon. Exactly. She's got that blood. Then my like more fun answer is I feel like Grizabella.

[24:48] Pauls Macs: And survive any she's been through hell and back. Also just cats like are good sort of out there in the wilderness and good at surviving and like I'll make sure she doesn't like get in the water or anything. And I feel like she'll help hunt and those are great choices. And yeah, so I'm gonna go with Elphaba and Grizabella.

[25:08] Mike Ross: I love also probably great at tracking where you are via the sky. She's always staring at the damn moon.

[25:13] Dylan MarcAurele: Definitely. She's always looking up at the sky.

[25:16] Pauls Macs: Well, and cats famously sort of like find their owners after they move and stuff. Do you know this thing that happens?

[25:22] Dylan MarcAurele: Oh, I have a cat. She'd find me.

[25:23] Pauls Macs: Will she also eat your corpse? Possibly.

[25:26] Dylan MarcAurele: I honestly hope so. I don't believe in waste.

[25:30] Mike Ross: Insanability, baby.

[25:31] Pauls Macs: I have been thinking about this. You took one of my answers, which is I was fully gonna say Elwood's because I was like, we might wind up in a city at some point. I need a legal advisor, especially somebody who has squatting rights and you know, things like that. But since you said her, I will say earlier, we're talking about Sackett's Way and how I based Sackett's Way on a lot of my friends. I really love just a practical woman, you know, just like a, so the two that were left that I also think legitimately would be hardy and at least one of them we know is good in a desert environment. And the other we know is good on a long journey through the wilderness. Dina from The Band's Visit, I think can take anything twice throws at her.

Absolutely. Like if I am panicking and falling to pieces, which is almost guaranteed, she is not going to be sure. She has her shit together, and also has survived harsher climates her whole life than I have. And then the baker's wife, we don't know she can survive a journey into the wilderness, but that's not her fault. That is not because she like, there's no giants, we have not specified, there'll be giants on this journey that we know. But I do believe I would have a better chance with Dina and the baker's wife. I also would just kill to hang out with the two of them at once. Oh yeah, like that would be the most fun conversation I could ever have. Those are the kind of people she's like, listen, there are shouldn't and shouldn't. Yeah. And Dina's like, you know, I don't know. That is both my answer of who I think would both be practical on a journey and also like desperately who I wish would hang out with me.

[26:48] Teresa Attridge: Oh yeah, a lot of powerful women were chosen. And I think that that's not only appropriate, but necessary.

[26:55] Pauls Macs: Yeah, well, Mike, Dylan, we touched on this a little bit before you're gonna be at Barn on Fire on Fire Island with New York Theater Barn.

[27:01] Mike Ross: Yes, which people can go see by the way, if you ever want a day trip out.

[27:05] Pauls Macs: There was a half hour presentation on the last day. It's like the early 20s of June. You won the Richard Rodgers Award. Talk about what that is number one, because I don't think we've talked about this on the podcast yet and share whatever you can share.

[27:16] Mike Ross: So basically, it's this award that we got very much to our surprise a couple years ago, and it gives us a certain amount of money to do a stage reading at a nonprofit theater somewhere in the country. And so we haven't made all the arrangements yet. But that will probably happen perhaps even in the fall of next year. Who knows?

[27:35] Dylan MarcAurele: Well, it'll be kind of the Lewis Loves Clark's first real official public presentation in fall. We were so lucky to present the first half at NAMM in a kind of abridged format, but this would be the whole thing. And so we're really, really excited and grateful.

[27:50] Mike Ross: Yes. Oh my god, it's Uncharted. By Sarah Burrell. It's a great song. This was a really exciting thing for us. It was early 2023 when we won it. It's $62,500 specifically to go to a stage reading which we're really excited about. That has to be done through Richard Rodgers himself's stipulations at a nonprofit theater, which I think is really cool. And we had this wonderful resource. It was a great boost to our confidence. We still didn't really know how we were going to like tangibly apply it. And then we got into NAMM, which thank you Dylan, who did our entire NAMM application and got us in. And thank you to NAMM for giving us just this incredible platform, cast, rehearsals, incredible training for how to set it all up.

And then based I think off that presentation, we were finally able to meet some folks. And now like Dylan says, when he says fall of next year, this probably comes out in January. So fall of this year, maybe 2025 fingers crossed. I am really excited for this upcoming year for the show in terms of possibly doing some more development with the writing, getting the stage reading up, having more folks come in and seeing act two kind of up on its feet. And then from there, we'll see. I don't want to jinx anything.

[28:49] Pauls Macs: Well, Mike, Dylan, thank you again for being here with us today. It was such a pleasure to see your presentation at NAMM. From my perspective, it really was the hit or one of the it's hard to say the hit but like one of the hits of the other. I'll say it. It was a hit. For those of us that weren't there though. I'm excited. There's another opportunity to see y'all both over the summer at Phi Pa for Barn on Fire and in a yet to be discovered location. Isn't that appropriate? Wow. Wow. Yet to be discovered by us.

[29:19] Mike Ross: Well, thank you, Mike. Thank you, Dylan. Thank you barnacles for listening. Our fans. We call them barnacles. That's true.

[29:25] Teresa Attridge: Oh my gosh, all this talk about barnacles and we didn't even talk about the whale. Oh, looks like y'all are gonna have to check out the show to see what we're talking about.

[29:31] Pauls Macs: That was a tease. All right. Thanks for listening. We'll see you again soon.

[29:35] All: Bye barnacles.

[29:40] Teresa Attridge: Thanks for joining us on New York theater barns backstage pass hosted by Teresa Attridge and Pauls Macs. And if you believe in supporting original culture shifting musicals, please like subscribe and share.