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[0:43] Teresa Attridge: Welcome, everyone! Welcome, Barnacles! We are so happy to have you here with us today. It is Season 3 of Backstage Pass, and we are feeling fresh, rejuvenated, and dare I say, reincarnated? More on that later.

[0:57] Pauls Macs: We are so excited to have the team from the musical Seven Steps Around the Fire here with us today. Emielyn and Harrison, say hello!

[1:04] Emielyn Das: Hi!

[1:05] Harrison Lewis: Hi!

[1:06] Teresa Attridge: Don't they sound so cheerful and beautiful? They're like young and happy and rejuvenated as well. Let me tell you, I remember when I was young and rejuvenated.

[1:15] Teresa Attridge: Okay, well, we're so pleased to have you here. I found your piece, as I was reviewing it, to be really thought-provoking and deeply moving and also structured in a way that no other musical I've encountered is structured. I mean, listen, here's the thing. Once I saw it, one, this was queer. Two, this was Bay Area. Three, this was Asian. I was in it! I think it's especially fun when we talk about shows that explore narrative structure through culture as well, as sort of this idea of what is a traditional musical theater structure versus what is storytelling in general, and what are the ways in which those things marry one another, complement one another, and which are the ways in which they really get to shine in their differences. And I think the book of this show is very, very much in that lane.

[1:58] Teresa Attridge: How are y'all doing tonight? How are you feeling?

[2:00] Emielyn Das: We're feeling good. We're feeling very excited. I don't know, we kind of sit in our rooms and are in our own heads about this. And I've been working on this for so long, it feels like. And to hear other people get it is so exciting to us.

[2:14] Harrison Lewis: Yeah, we're just really excited to talk about it. We love talking about it.

[2:17] Emielyn Das: Yes, and we love listening. So this is truly like a match made in heaven, unlike some. We'll get there.

[2:23] Pauls Macs: There have been so many teases already. This is fantastic.

[2:25] Teresa Attridge: I mean, we love a little tease. I mean, you know what, what we shouldn't do is tease these beautiful writers, though, Paul, should we like get into their bio? Should we introduce the audiences to these like upcoming names that are soon just going to be rolling off their tongues all the time?

[2:38] Pauls Macs: Absolutely. Let's go for it. All right, Emielyn, we're going to do you first.

[2:41] Pauls Macs: Emielyn Das is a queer Indian American performer, composer, lyricist, librettist and playwright based in New York City. A recent cognitive science graduate from UC Berkeley and a writing and production for musical theater from Berkeley NYC. She is primarily interested in theater that unpacks the human psyche, lifts intersectional identities and inspires change from marginalized communities. As a theater writer, her work has been developed and produced through Berkeley NYC's Postmasters Fellowship, Drama Club Productions, Soaring Gardens Residency, Berkeley Repertory Theater's YWCC, Enact Arts New Musicals Incubator, Green Room 42, Theater Now, Soho Playhouse and more.

[3:17] Teresa Attridge: Wow, that's incredible. Look at all those amazing organizations. Yeah, come on, more.

[3:21] Pauls Macs: Come on, more. There's 20 more, but we cut them out.

[3:24] Pauls Macs: As a performer, some highlights include Aaliyah Chawla in Monsoon Wedding at Berkeley Repertory Theater, the world premiere production. Young Maya in the feature film The Valley from Wavefront Productions and Chandra in opera Ajita Thumi from Rising Sun Films. She also proudly serves as the program director of Enact NYC, the New York branch of Bay Area based South Asian theater company Enact Arts.

[3:45] Teresa Attridge: Yeah, Emielyn, that is a crazy, fantastic bio. And there's more.

[3:50] Pauls Macs: And there's more, babe. We are so excited to have you here with us today. Harrison, you're next.

[3:55] Pauls Macs: Harrison Lewis is a composer, lyricist and librettist based in Brooklyn, New York. He recently received his M.A. in creative media and technology from Berkeley College of Music, New York City, where he specialized in writing and production for musical theater and developed his two thesis musicals, Seven Steps Around the Fire with Emielyn Das and The Boy Who Painted the Sky with Katie Brady and Madeline Skye. He previously graduated summa cum laude from Northwestern University School of Communication, where he studied musical theater and had the opportunity to develop multiple of his original works, including The Dogwood Trees, Waterland with Matthew Millen and Behind the Mirrors, a play with music. He frequently collaborates with Chicago based artists Jessica Thebus and Julie Marie Myatt, writing music and lyrics for their devised projects, How to Know the Wildflower is a Map and The Beyond, the Vision of Georgia O'Keeffe.

[5:09] Teresa Attridge: Oh, my God. Not Georgia O'Keeffe, my favorite. So cool.

[5:15] Pauls Macs: You know, when you like look back on your childhood and you're like, I was gay. When I was six, my favorite artist was Georgia O'Keeffe and I didn't know why, but I was obsessed with her. His work has been developed and produced with Writers Theater, Soho Playhouse, Theater Now, Enact Arts New Musicals Incubator, Drama Club Productions, Soaring Gardens Artist Retreat, Berkeley NYC, Green Room 42 and the American Music Theater Project at Northwestern University. In addition to his work as a writer, he is an experienced actor, musician, director, educator and nature lover. Find out more at HarrisonMLewis.com.

[5:18] Teresa Attridge: Those are awesome bios.

[5:20] Pauls Macs: This team is giving decorated. They were reacting so hard during that bio segment, looking at each other like, is this awesome? Is this horrible?

[5:27] Teresa Attridge: Truly, there are like seven lifetimes worth of achievements in here. Incredible.

[5:35] Emielyn Das: Oh, no, we're talking about this show again.

[5:37] Harrison Lewis: No, amazing. We know bios are really funny because it's just hearing everything you've done in like a wave can kind of like make you feel both self-conscious and very proud. So thank you both for your bravery.

[5:46] Emielyn Das: Thank you.

[5:49] Harrison Lewis: Thank you.

[5:50] Emielyn Das: Thank you for reading it with so much gusto.

[5:52] Harrison Lewis: I think, yeah, we look at it and we're like, oh, that's fun.

[5:55] Emielyn Das: No, but we always do. We always joke that Paul has positive vibes. And I feel like he really brings that to the bios.

[6:02] Harrison Lewis: Yes.

[6:03] Emielyn Das: Yes.

[6:04] Teresa Attridge: But I would be curious to know how you two came to meet and how you came to write Seven Steps Around the Fire. Does it have something to do with Berkeley?

[6:11] Emielyn Das: We don't know.

[6:13] Harrison Lewis: We'll find out. So we first met on a Zoom call in the summer before we started at Berkeley. And on that Zoom call, all the different people in class were like getting together and like sharing their first ideas for what they might want to make into a musical.

[6:30] Emielyn Das: And she shared.

[6:32] Harrison Lewis: Wait, I want to tell what was happening for me in the moment.

[6:35] Emielyn Das: This is backstage pass. We need to know this.

[6:37] Harrison Lewis: We need to know. We need to get backstage.

[6:40] Emielyn Das: Now that you've given me a pass to say everything and everything I don't get to say, I'm going to say.

[6:46] Harrison Lewis: You can cut out whatever you want, but we're going to like.

[6:48] Emielyn Das: I'm not cutting any of this.

[6:49] Harrison Lewis: We're giving you a backstage pass.

[6:51] Emielyn Das: Like literally it's writing itself.

[6:53] Harrison Lewis: Wow. Honestly, this is a musical now.

[6:55] Emielyn Das: Right.

[6:56] Harrison Lewis: Exactly. Like start playing.

[6:58] Emielyn Das: So I was in India and I had caught some disease. Like my American body just did not could not withstand. It was like crazy hot. And it was 3 a.m. And I had to join the Zoom for this master's program that I'm about to join. An hour before the meeting, they were like, you're going to be presenting your ideas for a show. And I was like, oh, my God, I don't I don't have like I was like, wait, are we allowed to swear?

[7:20] Harrison Lewis: Yes.

[7:21] Emielyn Das: Okay. Also, if kids are listening to this, educated.

[7:26] Harrison Lewis: Yes.

[7:27] Emielyn Das: We can't protect them forever. Sorry, mom and dad. I was like, fuck, I don't have an idea. And so I'm just like looking around my grandma's house. I was just writing something random, not random, but like a really half-baked idea. And I get on the Zoom. I'm like literally in the dark.

[7:39] Harrison Lewis: Do you remember that?

[7:40] Emielyn Das: I don't remember it being that dark.

[7:43] Emielyn Das: It was really dark. And I knew very clearly. So hot. I was like fanning myself the whole time.

[7:48] Pauls Macs: Emielyn, I'm viscerally there with you right now. This sounds like my nightmare. I have to meet my collaborators. It's 3 a.m. I'm sick and it's dark.

[7:55] Harrison Lewis: Meanwhile, I'm with you. I'm just intrigued. I just heard the idea and everyone was giving ideas and everyone's ideas were nice. But this idea, from the moment I like saw and heard her voice for the first time and heard her say this, this is like the best idea I've ever heard. I didn't even think that I would be a part of it, but I was just like, dang, like I wish I could be a part of it. This is going to be great.

[8:14] Emielyn Das: And then it kind of just went from there.

[8:17] Pauls Macs: What do you mean? It just kind of went from there. Then you met in person. Was it this idea or was it a different idea, Harrison? Tell me more.

[8:23] Harrison Lewis: The suspense is killing me. In the first few weeks of Berkeley, I mean, you've probably heard this before. Basically, in all these grad programs, you sort of speed date each other. You write a bunch of different songs with each other. We had a speed date together, which was great. But even before that, we were like just kind of becoming friends, talking a lot, and we kind of immediately bonded. I remember we went to dinner. We were just hanging out. We went to get ramen. He goes, so what's the deal with your family?

[8:50] Emielyn Das: Love. Get in there, Harrison. Get right in there.

[8:54] Harrison Lewis: We had a lot of shared passions about the relation between queerness and family and culture and religion. We also just had a very similar aesthetic style of writing. We liked the same kinds of lyrics, and that was all very clear early on. So I think we were just sort of immediately drawn to each other. And then I'm going to expose us. They can always edit it out. But we kind of broke the rules at Berkeley.

[9:17] Emielyn Das: I love that.

[9:18] Harrison Lewis: We broke the rules. The Berkeley-NYC program director was on the NAMT episode. I think she knows.

[9:24] Emielyn Das: I think she knows.

[9:25] Harrison Lewis: Yeah, and you know what? She's probably proud of you. So let's start there.

[9:28] Emielyn Das: She probably knew. We weren't supposed to really get into writing anything until we were officially paired together, which is done through—

[9:38] Harrison Lewis: How dare you.

[9:39] Harrison Lewis: We rank each other, and then they kind of pair people together so that everyone kind of gets someone in their top five, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But we had a very massive dump document. It was probably like 50 pages, 60 pages. And we would work on it in class. Before we'd even gotten paired together, we were just spewing all of this down. Because I think we were sort of like, if we don't get paired together, we'll still do this at some point. No one can stop us from having passion.

[10:07] Emielyn Das: Yes.

[10:08] Harrison Lewis: So we just really kind of immediately started working on it super fast with our entire force of being. It took a second for me to be convinced on the idea, honestly.

[10:19] Emielyn Das: Wait, but I thought this was your idea.

[10:21] Harrison Lewis: Also, it was 3 a.m. She was feverish. It was hot. My canteen had sprung a leak, and I was thirsty. She was coming up with the idea on the spot. She hadn't written this down before. She was just saying it out loud for the very first time.

[10:31] Emielyn Das: Yes.

[10:32] Harrison Lewis: And so I wasn't thinking anything of it. At the very beginning, I wanted to write a show that was, like, hyper-pop, that was about the San Francisco queer scene. It was going to be, like, once, once, once, you know?

[10:41] Emielyn Das: Yes.

[10:42] Harrison Lewis: Yes, I do. We did have a few songs like that. And I remember, like, in those first few weeks of school, he came up to me at the—or we both were at the vending machine at the same time. And he was like, so are you going to work on that idea that I said was really good? And I was like, I don't know. And I just, like, walked away.

[10:55] Emielyn Das: It's hard. Human relationships, navigating those, it's tricky.

[10:58] Harrison Lewis: I know.

[10:59] Harrison Lewis: I really do. I mean, I guess also if you're a genius, every idea is good. And you're just like, that's another drop in the bucket for me.

[11:05] Emielyn Das: I don't know.

[11:06] Emielyn Das: I don't know why. I just, like, wasn't—I wasn't there yet. But then we started talking more.

[11:10] Emielyn Das: And I was like, I know I really want to work with you. And I know that, like, let's, like, talk about this idea more. And then I remember we started this document. And I just was in class. And I was, like, supposed to be paying attention. But I was like, oh, my God, I actually have so many ideas. And then in class, he was standing, like—or he was sitting, like, two tables in front of me. And he was, like, commenting back on the things that I was writing in real time. And we were, like, we're on to something.

[11:30] Harrison Lewis: Honestly, a shared document is so sacred. It is the best way to get away with talking in class because you look like you're working.

[11:39] Teresa Attridge: Sorry if our professors hear this. And if your professors hear it, guess what, this is part of the creative impulse and this is exactly what you're trying to teach. So if anything, y'all are doing a great job. You guys- I would argue that your musical theater graduate program is designed to encourage your passions, not discourage them. Yeah, this is an undergrad. They don't have to follow the rules. Right, exactly. What do I- I didn't go to college. I don't fucking know. It really is true that sometimes it's another person who can show you that your idea is the one worth exploring. In fact, I don't think I've ever said this on the pod, but I've always considered that to be one of my artistic superpowers, is that I can hear 30 ideas and I can be like, that one, that's the one that should be explored.

That's the one we need to actually do. Because, you know, people in the theater spitball ideas all the time. Wouldn't it be good if we did a brush of City of Angels, blah, blah, blah, or whatever it happens to be. I've been able to hear in my artistic career, the 20 ideas and been like, this is the one we're doing. So the show is the show, Seven Steps Around the Fire. Is that correct?

[12:34] Harrison Lewis: Yes.

[12:35] Teresa Attridge: Yeah. Well, why don't I read the synopsis so we all know what we're talking about. And now that we know all seven steps it took to get here. Seven Steps Around the Fire follows a young Indian American woman who must interpret visions of her past seven lifetimes as her queer relationship is threatened by the cultural expectation of arranged marriage. When she unearths secrets surrounding her mother's own identity, she must make the impossible choice between her family and breaking free from the endless karmic cycle holding her down. Featuring a contemporary folk pop score, fused with the sounds of Indian classical music. Seven Steps Around the Fire explores Hinduism through the lens of sexuality, asking the timeless question, what will we sacrifice in the name of love?

[13:19] Harrison Lewis: I don't think that's synopsis.

[13:20] Teresa Attridge: Yeah. So you've got this document, you decided to work on it. You know, you've been putting it into a shared doc or something. Now, Harrison, what did you see in it that you were like, this is the one I want to work on?

[13:28] Harrison Lewis: The combination of arranged marriage with this woman who is with another woman having to choose felt just so deep and layered to me. It was just something I had never heard before, just this combination of factors. It just immediately hit me as like deeply sort of viscerally emotional. And like, it's kind of hard to explain, but just like instinctually in my gut, I was just like, like I got emotional with before we even started writing it. I just felt like, oh, that's like a crazy story to tell.

[13:53] Teresa Attridge: Yeah. You're like watching him respond in the shared document, but you're sitting behind him. You see a shoulder shaking. He's weeping. You see him like sobbing in class.

[14:02] Harrison Lewis: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And people are just like, wow, you're like really into musical structure. Like whatever you're like learning like that day.

[14:12] Teresa Attridge: Yeah. Listen, sometimes, you know, you have to be your own hero in order to figure out where that journey is going.

[14:19] Teresa Attridge: Exactly. I'd love to talk with you about the character of Karina. I want to know how you created that character fleshed out that story. And I'm asking this with great sensitivity. I'm thinking of Harrison be like, so what's up with your family? I don't want to be like, Hey, Emily, is Karina you? You kind of already alluded to there's at least some autobiographical elements to the creation of that character. But perhaps there's not maybe there's just threads of it. But I'd be so curious to know more about the creation of Karina.

[14:43] Emielyn Das: Yeah. Well, in general, coming into writing musical theater, I was a performer before I started writing and am still a performer. I really felt first of all, just kind of creating or, you know, creating a character like this, I really just felt like there weren't roles that I saw myself in. And, you know, I was tired of maybe auditioning or envisioning myself in the same few roles that I didn't feel like were very developed characters of color in the canon. Really, the thought process behind applying to Berkeley was, I guess I'll just write it myself, because I didn't feel like anybody else would, and anybody else would care to. So I was like, I guess I'll just write it myself. So with Karina, I really wanted her to be, you know, this strong queer character of color in the canon.

Excitingly, the first queer South Asian character that we've come across. But in terms of yeah, her connection to me, I mean, the story of a mom being closeted and having gone through the arranged marriage and sorry, spoiler. Oh, is that bad? Are we not? I'm just kidding. I'm so sorry. But I will be I will be the avatar. I will sometimes speak for the listener in terms of clarity or the avatar of the listener for clarity.

[15:51] Teresa Attridge: Yes. In the story, we have Karina, who is in a queer relationship with Joni.

[16:02] Emielyn Das: Joni. Joni is her girlfriend. Changing my major to Joni, honestly. We thought of that. But Ma and Baba don't know about this. You know, Karina's parents don't know about this. But then in the course of the show, they come to find out and they disapprove, especially Karina's mother deeply disapproves of this. But in the course of the show, we come to learn that Karina's mother is also queer, had a dance partner that there was a relationship with. I just wanted to clarify that like that discovery is a huge moment of connection and also separation. Try to navigate the mother daughter relationship, which again, I felt was very delicately and felt authentically explored. It's a huge part of the story.

[16:43] Harrison Lewis: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I'm so glad that you got all that. It feels so good. Yeah, that that song that Baba sings the top of that. That's heartbreaking.

[16:55] Emielyn Das: Exactly. Where he's, you know, like, I have just tried to love this woman who can't love me. This story of like a mom being closeted and kind of passing this on is in my family. It's been a conglomerate of different stories that we've just kind of whittled down. I am closest to Karina. Or, you know, I would say that that's pretty, pretty close. But the stories of both Ma and Karina are taken from a bunch of different stories in my family that I just kind of was like, Oh, we're all something. We're all as my conservative Filipino grandmother, like when my mom was trying to explain to her that I was bi, and she's like, What do you mean, you know, and it's like, she's like, Well, Nana, it's like, she likes she likes girls and boys.

And she likes gender nonconforming people all the same. Yeah, she's attracted to everybody goes, Nana's like, Okay, so what? And she you know, and she's like, she's like, like, she like, she thinks boys and girls are both attractive. Nana goes, I think boys and girls are both attractive. And my mom was like, Oh, so I mean, you what? Which we call my grandma Nana. So I am bisexual. You know, she's like, I am also bi. And my mom was like, Yeah, I guess you're bi. And Nana was like, I am bi. Like, you know, she was. And like, is she still like, weirdly conservative? Yes. But at least she like now knows she's gay. So like, but it is kind of I think queerness, especially is something that in a lot of Asian cultures, we don't realize how prevalent it is, because it's very much a like, everyone suffers silently, or no one wants to burden others with their problems.

That's like a huge, a huge thing. And also to go against tradition and family. One of the things I really appreciated about this show was that it didn't do the like, well, if you just give up everything you've ever known, and you follow this, it'll be great. It was so realistic about being like, I'm giving up my family, my culture, and my traditions and my parents, like it's the gravity and the weight of this, I think was really beautifully done. It didn't feel prescriptive. You know what I mean? Like, it didn't feel like you were telling people how to navigate this situation as much as we were watching someone in a very specific circumstance, navigate it and trying to figure out how we felt about that, you know, without being told how to feel.

[19:07] Teresa Attridge: I'm gonna be avatar again. So once Ma and Baba learn about Karina's relationship with Joni, it puts Karina in the middle of those two pressure points, where she wants to have this deeply authentic love that she experiences with Joni, but also being separated from her family is heartbreaking.

[19:24] Emielyn Das: Yeah. She even tries that for a while. She and Joni move in together and try to make it work. I think also Joni being low to no contact with her family.

[19:36] Harrison Lewis: Yes. That perspective, I think was really important. And also this is another one of those things where not only are they like interracial, they're interfaith as well, right? Whether they're practicing that faith or not. And I know Joni mentioned hell, but was Joni meant to be like a specific, like kind of Christian or Catholic, or was it a vague kind of like, she believes in hell or her family believes in hell, but we don't need to get into the specifics of it.

[20:00] Emielyn Das: I think it's something we're still kind of workshopping, but I think she definitely doesn't super believe in any of that anymore, but she definitely raised in a traditional Christian household of sorts.

[20:12] Harrison Lewis: Oh yeah, no, that's it's clear. And again, it's one of those things that it doesn't have to be specific. What we know is that she no longer is, and that she's not like she was able to say, I no longer want anything to do with like this part of my culture, this part of my family. And because she was able to do it, it's hard to see Karina not be able to do that for her.

[20:32] Emielyn Das: Exactly. It's interesting, because it is genuinely, it is so different. You know what I mean? Especially, you know, given just when you have such a rich sort of like identity, and it's how do you hold these multiple identities that don't seem to go together? You know, and that's, I think, where Round and Round and Round is like, beautiful.

[20:48] Teresa Attridge: There you go. I think we should meet Karina. I think that'd be awesome. Will you please set up Round and Round again for us?

[20:53] Emielyn Das: In Round and Round again, this is the second number in the show, she has just woken up from an insane dream, which is our opening sequence. She is waking up, we have a short scene where there's a day in the life of her household, and we basically see her go through her whole day. She is basically expressing this frustration of this double life she's living, where she starts out the day in her home, it feels good for a moment, but then she has to leave and live this double life. And eventually, she always keeps coming back and going in this circle of leaving, staying, leaving, staying. And she just wants that to end and to land somewhere.

[21:30] Teresa Attridge: Yeah, she wants to find some place to land. And who is performing this song?

[21:34] Emielyn Das: Emmalyn, this is you. See, this always happens to me is that I have like asked that question. And the writers were like, it's me, pals, obviously. But this time, I know, we also have. So we have me as Karina. And we also have three aunties on our album. So you hear them towards the end of the song where there's they're like, there she goes again, you know, they're rolling their eyes. We have three amazing South Asian performers as our three aunties. We have a new Mysore. We have Swetha Vissapragada. And we have Devika Cabasa. Here is Round and Round Again performed by Emielyn Das, Swetha Vissapragada, Devika Cabasa, and a new Mysore.

[22:22] ♪ Musical number: "Round and Round Again" — performed by Emielyn Das, Swetha Vissapragada, Devika Cabasa, and a new Mysore ♪

[23:17] ♪ Musical number: "Round and Round Again" — performed by Emielyn Das, Swetha Vissapragada, Anu Mysore, and Devika Bhaise ♪

[25:50] Teresa Attridge: Okay, first of all, and we got to talk about these vocals. We got to talk about these vocals.

[26:02] Harrison Lewis: I think we said too much.

[26:04] Emielyn Das: You're a good singer too. You might have been in the world premiere production of Monsoon Wedding.

[26:08] Harrison Lewis: Yeah, it's almost crazy. It's almost like people can be so multifaceted and so talented and here we are with a true multi-hyphenate.

[26:16] Teresa Attridge: No, but Harrison, what you said, I thought was very well communicated in the song, going through the day and being caught between the two worlds. And I love how it's got this slow intro, but then the energy builds and it's building and it's building. And then suddenly, suddenly Ma asks, do you have a boyfriend? And like everything changes because it's that moment, right? Of like, oh my gosh, everything was going so great. And then the uncomfortable question comes up and suddenly I'm now code-switching or I'm like caught between the two worlds. That feeling was very much in the song. Like you're saying, it's like the way that it builds. There's sort of like this pulse that's like underneath that. We start to feel quick in like a heartbeat, like when the nerves start to kick in and when like the questions come.

[27:01] Harrison Lewis: Yes. So it's almost like the idea of like we're studying ourselves. We're going to do it. We're going to go to the plate. We're getting it ready. And then the trigger happens and you're like, oh, God, I'm a fraud. I'm a liar. I don't know what's going on. Like it's emotionally so telling and feeling it through the music because, of course, like the music sets like the emotion. Right? It's so clear and it's really easy to like you can feel it in your body when you listen to it. You're like, oh, I'm in this with you.

[27:25] Teresa Attridge: We've said it a few times in this podcast, but, you know, the best way to meet a character in a musical is through music. And we understand her through this song very clearly.

[27:34] Harrison Lewis: I mean, it was it's so funny with this song. We in grad school, if our professors are listening to this, they told us to write an I want song and we did it. We didn't write this song. I know I use it. It's like this I want song. And I'm like, oh, I see it. But funnily enough, I wasn't thinking about like I want to be a Broadway composer or I want to be. But that's what this show is about. It's about someone who can't have what they want. Why would you write an I want song for someone so like well said that's so so trying so hard to not want. So like character-wise, of course, it's not an I want song.

[28:08] Emielyn Das: One thing that I was so struck by when I was reviewing this piece was the balance between universality and specificity. And in actuality, I think the more specific you can be very often makes it more universal. Sometimes it gets so specific that it can feel like you're excluding people. I did not feel that way at all in this piece. I have seen many stories that explore the experience of coming out to your parents. And those are all very valuable stories. I want to make sure that's clear. But the way that you were then able to place it in the context of this Hindu family in this spiritual context, Harrison, I can absolutely see what you are seeing, that there is a power to the storytelling that elevates the story in a way that is just so hugely resonant. And I think will be deeply affecting to people who are looking for a different lens to that story, if that makes sense.

[28:58] Harrison Lewis: I think on that note, when we talk about specificity and universal themes, the moment I read that the show opened with aunties, I was like fully in. OK, no, I know what it means to be like these are the aunties, especially like Asian aunties. And of course, like I'm Filipino. Right. So it's like a little different. But that through line of being like, OK, I understand that this perspective is not only very specific, but I immediately look at them and I'm like, oh, those are my aunties. Like I was like, oh, no. So it's the idea that even if it's not my literal aunties, those are my literal aunties.

[29:32] Emielyn Das: Yeah. You know, I mean, that's how we wanted you to feel. And I think like part of the reason why I was first maybe a little like, oh, I don't know about this was because it really is such a mirror to my own life. And it felt so up close and personal. And, you know, aunties and and a lot of this in the dialogue, this flipping between the Bengali and the English, like that's so natural to me that it didn't feel visceral. And so I didn't realize that this specificity, you know, could tell this universal story. So it's been as I've been writing it and as we've been writing it, like finding people who, you know, are not of this culture feel like they resonate with the way that the Baba character speaks or just random. I thought were way too specific for the American canon. It's been really empowering to feel like my very specific lived experience is something that I can relate to a larger audience.

[30:18] Harrison Lewis: And yeah, and I will say that it is actually one of my favorite parts of your script is the fact that that seamless transition between languages, because one, yes, that's like so realistic and very lived. But I think when you're writing a show about your personal experience and you're like, yeah, this is just how it is for me. I think sometimes we forget that when this is performed for some people, it's the first time hearing their own language on stage or it's the first time that they've like experienced a mirror. It's also one of those beautiful things where your lived experience is somebody's first experience sometimes. Right. And sort of the beautiful cycle of that specifically with something like language, I think.

[30:57] Emielyn Das: And I will say that you guys, first of all, this is one of the most comprehensive scripts I've ever read, like from a dramaturgy perspective. There are annotations, annotations.

[31:06] Harrison Lewis: Oh yeah, no barnacles like take notes because they did.

[31:09] Emielyn Das: The script is fully annotated. So like there were translations, there's like definitions, like the immersion in just reading the script itself as someone who normally like as a dramaturge, I'm like, OK, I gotta like pull out my laptop. I've got to look all this up. It's all provided in such a way that I was like, OK, yeah, even like on the page. This is so comprehensive. And in that I was like, OK, yeah, I don't feel as if this is something that I'm going to have to be like, oh, no, like am I not prepared? Am I like not going to understand what's going on? I was like, not only do I, this is done in such a way that because the script is written the way it is, the content itself doesn't have to compromise. You don't have to spoon-feed what this is to the audience because the actor already knows what to do. Like if anyone ever gets a chance to like get a hold of this book, do it. Right. When it's mass produced, buy it. It's gorgeous.

[31:57] Harrison Lewis: This is actually like a huge thing that I would want people writing in like multiple languages and, you know, different cultures to hear. This was a big like Harrison has put in all of those annotations. And when I'm writing like I don't want to stop and I just will keep going, going and he'll just follow me and put in the translations. And that is all him. But it was a big thing about in grad school when we were presenting our work, we were like, oh, the Bengali feels really important. And some of these specific words throughout the script and the lyrics feel really important. But we don't know how to ensure that our, you know, at the time readers, but also like listeners are able to understand what's going on.

And so on the page, figuring out how to do those translations and knowing that like annotating everything would make our readers feel included. And also just learning how to phrase the Bengali in a way that when it's spoken, you're getting the context through the English. And the Bengali is mostly just like interjections and more emotional things that the message can be related through tone.

[33:02] Emielyn Das: We have had a lot of conversations about authenticity and also being able for that authenticity to be understood by everyone. And just how to do that, because I think also a large part of the show is the visual storytelling and like the dance as a means of representing history and time. And all these things where it's like when you're just doing like a reading with music stands and half of it is in a different language. People, I feel like, may not always understand. That's why, yeah, we wanted to put those annotations in there. Because we see it all in our heads. We see the entire picture of everything on stage. We both think like super visually.

[33:30] Harrison Lewis: That's clear from the script, by the way.

[33:32] Emielyn Das: Which is, again, that's very hard to do is to create visual through language and then have them take language and turn it into visual again.

[33:41] Harrison Lewis: Great. That's like so good to hear.

[33:43] Emielyn Das: I would just also offer that specificity can also just be very humorous and deeply humanizing. Like I wrote that in this exchange in Act 2, I think, between Baba and Uncle, where he's like, Hey, I saw you at Costco last week. Oh, really? The TVs were so cheap. I know. I bought three TVs. I also love Costco. Like, I just felt so connected.

[34:02] Harrison Lewis: I also love Costco.

[34:03] Emielyn Das: But I also felt like I could just see that conversation happening so clearly. And, you know, is probably drawn upon from lived experience.

[34:12] Harrison Lewis: Yeah, I can't wait to see the site-specific reading of this at Costco. It's gonna be incredible.

[34:17] Emielyn Das: Yeah, well, no, but I think that's also a great way to set up Kingdom in the Sky. We've been talking a bit about Karina and Joanie. There's this relationship between the two. We've already talked about how, like, Joanie has given up contact with her family. But Karina is not ready to do that. But can you just talk about, like, the conception of their relationship? They are working together, or how they met.

[34:35] Harrison Lewis: Yeah, so they are two Ph.D. students at UC Berkeley. Totally random, UC Berkeley. Totally random. I've never been there. I don't know what that is. So they're two Ph.D. students, and they're both working on...

[34:56] Emielyn Das: Once upon a time, I used to say their Sanskrit words over and over blinded by the veil of doom, circling in an endless loop. Every single time I held the art, the eye got burned. What makes me different? Why am I different? I've been told there's a kingdom in the sky where those secret answers lie, where the river flows, lotus grows, and emeralds shine. But if one thing stays true, then my karma stayed with you, and if you're not there, that is where I draw the line. Hey, you know I'm not going anywhere.

[40:33] Emielyn Das: Once upon a time, I used to lie awake each night straight through the morning, trying to pray my sins away, scared to face his judgment day. Maybe we're alone, maybe it's a sea of black up there, but sometimes I wonder, with you I wonder. I see a kingdom in the sky when I look into your eyes. I believe again, it's easy when your hand's in mine. Who knows what God might have meant, but our corner's heaven sent. Can we trust in that, live in that, that's our divine?

[41:21] Harrison Lewis: Do you really believe all that?

[41:32] Emielyn Das: I think so.

[41:34] Harrison Lewis: That's really nice of you to say. It's beautiful that we have something to believe in at all, don't you think?

[41:49] Emielyn Das: She's older this time, she looks like she could be my vida. What is she wearing? She's in a white sari, sitting by the water, a river, I think.

[42:02] Harrison Lewis: Why? Like for a funeral?

[42:05] Emielyn Das: Yeah, pouring her lover's ashes in the river.

[42:13] Harrison Lewis: How do you know it's her lover?

[42:20] Emielyn Das: Listen, that's what she's saying. Take my love to somewhere better, but she's still here, they're not together. Tale as old as time. Isn't that why people bathe in the Ganga, to get to somewhere like heaven?

[42:46] Harrison Lewis: Yeah, that's what she, that's her prayer. If only she could see us now. If there's a kingdom in the sky, with a place for you and I, we should sail away, sail away into the night. And if it's cold out on the sea, you can warm up next to me. If we stay awake, wide awake, we'll find light. Cause our love is pure, pure as the Ganga. It's a current flows from God, the rest is just the world's facade. So let's walk down to the riverside, arm in arm, gaming with pride and find a way, find a way home to our kingdom in the sky.

[43:59] ♪ Musical number: "Kingdom in the Sky" — performed by Sierra Lancaster, Kenzie Elizabet, and Meetu Chilana ♪

[44:37] Emielyn Das: The moment that they arrive at, this kind of enduring love that they pledge to each other, but how that mirrored in that experience of her former life and that longing that's there. And the storytelling you have with them, sort of like, and their conversation about the moon that ends the song as well. And this idea of like, it's the sound of the moon, she's singing for us, just for us. And this idea, not only is the moon sort of this, it is a heavenly body which we look up, and we like, universally we all have the moon to gaze on. To incredibly sapphic, there is nothing more gay than the moon.

[45:09] Harrison Lewis: But I think that one of the beautiful things about it too is that the moon is in itself a constant in that it is always changing and that the moon goes through phases. And so it's this idea of like, we have these phases of Karina's past lives that are playing out. We have these phases of like, which identities we identify with or how much, or how little, when do we feel full and when do we feel like we're waxing and waning personally. I think that that symbolism for the nature of their relationship and about what the song also represents. Again, we're talking about you guys taking visual to script to visual again. Like, am I just a sucker for the moon? Yes. But I think symbolically, the fact that it ends with that under this symbol of both something that is constant and something that must change in order to be what it is, I think is so indicative of their relationship while still leaving us with the sense of like, but what phase are we going into?

[46:07] Teresa Attridge: Thanks for joining us on New York Theatre Barn's Backstage Pass hosted by Teresa Attridge and Pauls Macs. Join us next time for part two of our conversation with Emielyn Das and Harrison Lewis about their new musical Seven Steps Around the Fire. Get your Backstage Pass.