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[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing? Our mission is to give you an inclusive look behind the scenes. We are interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one eleven o'clock number at a time. This is your Backstage Pass.

[1:01] ♪ Musical number: "Round and Round Again" — performed by the Company of Seven Steps Around the Fire ♪

[1:49] Teresa Attridge: Welcome back to part two of our conversation with Emielyn Das and Harrison Lewis about this groundbreaking new musical. You'll hear two more songs from the show and learn more about the characters that Emielyn and Harrison have created. Seven Steps Around the Fire is a new musical that follows Karina, a young queer Indian American girl who has to figure out how to break the generational cycle of denial when her queer relationship is threatened by the cultural expectation of arranged marriage. When she unearths secrets surrounding her mother's own identity, she must make the impossible choice between her family and breaking free from the endless karmic cycle holding her down. Featuring a contemporary folk pop score fused with the sounds of Indian classical music, Seven Steps Around the Fire explores Hinduism through the lens of sexuality, asking the timeless question, what will we sacrifice in the name of love? Listen all the way to the end for a game where we decide who will be our musical theater aunties. If you don't know who the aunties are, well you'll just have to listen.

[2:42] Pauls Macs: So we've been talking about it throughout the podcast, but also I'd love to talk about the aunties, the role that they play in the story. One of the most exciting structural elements of the story for me, something that I have not encountered before. Can you share about the conception of the aunties and the role they play in this piece? Especially in exploring the karmic lifetimes, which we also haven't really gotten into yet.

[3:03] Emielyn Das: We were actually just talking about this today, like how this idea of going through these past lifetimes came about. And it came about for me just saying once, which might sound crazy, but I was just like, I feel like I've lived this life before, but I just need to get it right this time.

[3:18] Harrison Lewis: That was one of the most formative moments in this collaboration, was that random day we were just hanging out in the park and you just said, I feel like I've lived this before and I have to get it right this time. And the stakes are so high. And I don't know why.

[3:32] Emielyn Das: How we frame the flashbacks is that first opening sequence of Pathway to Brahma-Nirvana is Karina's soul, not Karina, but her soul is getting married to a man she doesn't love. I guess the premise of the show really is the seven steps around the fire, the saptapadi, which translates to seven steps around the fire in Sanskrit, is a common ritual in Hindu marriages where you take those seven steps around the fire and it is said you're bound to them for seven lifetimes to come. So in that opening sequence is when Karina's soul has been bound to a man. The present day Karina that we're seeing, Karina, is her eighth lifetime. So the reason why the stakes are so high is because this is the first life that she's out of the curse.

[4:10] Harrison Lewis: And so the aunties have stepped in because they're like, this girl's been bound for seven lifetimes. We know she doesn't want a man, but she might fall in again and she might not know where she's going. So we want to step in and try to lead her down the right path.

[4:24] Emielyn Das: The other thing with the aunties that I think was really important to us was this distinction between religion as like institutionalized religion as we know it and how it has evolved and changed over hundreds and thousands of years and how it has been manipulated. And this is the case for all religions, but how it has been manipulated by people in power to get across certain moral messaging and trying to kind of strip that away and present these deity figures as genuinely loving, gay friendly and supportive and really wanting the best for Karina. Which is what confuses her so much because the reason why they show up as aunties, you know, there's just these spiritual forces. But the reason why they show up to her as aunties is because that's what she would understand. In her brain that's recognized.

[5:21] Harrison Lewis: How they manifest to her.

[5:21] Emielyn Das: Yes, exactly. So they're like a manifestation of her psyche. And so she's really distraught with how they seem like they wouldn't be supportive, but are trying to push down this path or trying to explain to her this. And the thing that relates to the moon from Kingdom is the three aunties. We have Urvi, Soumya, and Arushi. So Urvi means the earth, Soumya means the moon, and Arushi means the sun. Arushi is like the old kind of cynical, like, oh, I've seen humanity before. You guys suck.

[5:46] Harrison Lewis: Yeah, she doesn't have faith in humans, but Urvi is the earth and she's kind of this kind of like a foil to Ma. She's this motherly figure in Kareena's mind. And then Soumya is the youngest, who's the moon, and she's really like the love.

[6:09] Emielyn Das: Romantic.

[6:09] Harrison Lewis: Yeah, she's a romantic.

[6:14] Emielyn Das: Oh, yeah. If love be blind, it best agrees with night.

[6:14] Harrison Lewis: Right, right. Exactly. And so at the end of Kingdom, that scene, we actually hear her singing, Soumya singing. And so that's when Joanie says, don't you hear the moon? And so that's the sound of the moon. Gorgeous. But yeah, these three aunties basically show her these different lifetimes where she's wanted to be with her love, but couldn't. Showing her this timeless queer struggle over history and trying to be like, girl, how many times are you going to do this?

[6:39] Emielyn Das: At least seven.

[6:39] Harrison Lewis: At least seven, right. At least seven, girl. And that's what we see in the song, Pathway to Brahma Nirvana, that is part of the ritual. It has been foretold by the ritual in the seven steps that she takes. There's a lot of people singing on this song, right?

[6:54] Emielyn Das: Oh, yeah.

[6:54] Harrison Lewis: Is this a classic?

[6:54] Emielyn Das: The Company of.

[6:59] Harrison Lewis: The Company of. Yeah, I think it is. Did you want to list anybody or shall I just say The Company of Seven Steps Around the Fire?

[7:04] Emielyn Das: Yeah. An amazing South Asian ensemble. Fantastic. Here is Pathway to Brahma Nirvana performed by The Company of Seven Steps Around the Fire.

[7:09] ♪ Musical number: "Pathway to Brahma Nirvana" — performed by The Company of Seven Steps Around the Fire ♪

[12:23] Teresa Attridge: This is such a powerful beginning. Come on, opening number! So rich. The build, you know, we introduce so many characters. The fundamental stakes of the show are laid out, but we don't fully understand them yet until we see the transformation into modern day. Another word I think about when I think of this piece is just the layers, and this first layer really sucks you in. Marriage is certainly part of what's at the heart of this piece, whether it's like we are getting married, or we are spiritually married, or we're going to be in a loving relationship for eternity. I love that that's kind of a framing device right at the beginning of the piece. We're already questioning what does it mean in our lives?

What does it mean beyond our life, in our next life? That is outside of my context. I don't think of marriage like my next seven lives. So to already be thinking about that was a really fresh way to start this musical. I think also, we talk about this a lot, that opening numbers are often the hardest one to write. And there's so much going on in this opening number, right? And I feel like you've inseminated all the information we need to feel confident that we'll be able to follow. Do you know what I mean? Like it feels very immersive, but I don't feel lost.

[13:34] Harrison Lewis: Okay, good. Seven Steps Around the Fire is so interesting because not only is it a tradition, right, or it's this belief that you do this, but we have this character who is doing the opposite of that Western phrase, like walk through fire, which is to go through peril or to go through hardship. And this idea of like, we're walking around the issue or the thing that we have to face, because she can't walk through it in order to get to what she really wants. And so I think that it's like, right, you're both like, Okay, is that what you got? Like, until the eighth until the eighth, and then you can, yeah, and then you can, I think when we talk about fire and symbolism of like, what it means to go around to go through so much of this is like, what are we talking around?

And what are we talking through? What am I feeling around the circumstance? What am I going through? And I feel like so much of this show is set up in this idea of that first image of, again, it's cyclical, it's around, and it's around, and it's around, but what happens when we actually have to be reborn into fire, like, when we talk about like, the Phoenix is a symbol of being reborn in flame. It's so fun, I think, from like, a textural standpoint, like what fire means in this show, what it means to people individually, like is Korean and Aries? I don't know. Kidding. But it's just one of those things where this is set up in such a way that from title to opening number, like I was like a light is what I mean.

It's so much of the undertone of this is that energetic force. Yeah, you know, that we are both immersed in but trying to examine at a distance. We have talked in circles, funnily, about what fire means for the show. And I think we never really hit it right on the dot. But you just did it, Teresa. We're gonna use a professional dramaturge. Oh, God, I'm getting an honorary degree for Berkeley, you guys. You heard it here first.

[15:24] Teresa Attridge: Well, there's one other character I'd love to chat about.

[15:29] Harrison Lewis: Oh, we have to. It was very charming. I think it was partially the role that he's supposed to play in the story. I found the character of Abhi so charming, and such another pull Karina is experiencing. Can you talk about that character and how he plays a part in the story?

[15:38] Harrison Lewis: I think for us, the moment I like realizing him was the line, he's a good guy. First, I think the instinct was to make him kind of a villain. And then we were like, no, the story is so much more interesting if he's not a villain, because it's really not his fault. It's not any one person. It's the, you know, the system society, but he is a great guy. He would be a perfectly fine husband. It presents a genuinely hard choice. Well, so Abhi is like a family friend of Ma and Baba, the ideal match if they were arranging their marriage. He shows up at the time when they're like Karina, Abhi, you guys should hang out with each other. Yeah, they're like, we were in the neighborhood every year. Oh, we just thought we'd drop by.

And the thing is, really cute outfit for no reason. Also, someone had just got here. Right? Totally. But then they kind of do start hanging out with each other. And then they have like a bond that develops and the way that tracks through is really interesting. I think it's so fun to see too, because obviously, there are parallels to one another, right? They're like, Hey, you and I can have these conversations about what it means to be, you know, second generation or first depending on where they were born, right? Second generation, first generation, the expectations of our families and what they sacrifice for us to give them their dream. Because a lot of times when we talk about the American dream, and the American dream is something you also inherit, right?

Like sometimes it's not yours, like someone gives it to you. And so this is a struggle that they both very much understand. And he represents what does it mean to just kind of like give in and do it. He did the good thing. He gave up what he wanted to do to get the better job. He's a catch. He's so funny and charming and honest and all these things where it's like, if you chose this life, it wouldn't be a bad life. But would it be an authentic life? Is it enough to have something that is a good enough compromise, especially when you see that life mirrored in your own parents' life?

[17:37] Teresa Attridge: Exactly. I think it's just such an interesting part because we're also talking about her karmic life cycles. We're also talking about like generational cycles as well and about how this plays out and her seeing her parents and it's like, do I want my own life is like such a weird question to have. That's also the central question of the show.

[17:59] Harrison Lewis: Exactly. A hard question to answer. I think this song does a really great job of again, like I love the show doesn't tell you how to feel about it. It doesn't spoon feed like what is the choice? You really understand where they're coming from the sense of like, actually, would this be okay? Is this what we're going to do? Am I going to throw myself a marigold as it were? Would you please set up that song for us?

[18:18] Teresa Attridge: Wait, I just want to give one more thought for it. I love your thoughts, Harrison. Give me every thought you've ever had. Harrison, don't stop giving thoughts. Harrison, truly, the world is a better place with your thoughts. I just wanted to mention, there's also a really interesting parallel that we're trying to build between Abhi and Baba in that they are essentially the same. And there's a scene later on, we may have cut this, but I think we should bring it back if we cut it, where Abhi and Baba have a conversation about this, and where they're- What? When? Sorry. Do we not have that anymore? Oh my god, Barnacles, we're getting backstage exclusive information. Now this is like, it's happening right in this moment.

Even the other writer doesn't know. We may- We've had so many. I can't keep track. But anyway, even if it's cut, it still lives on in my brain. I'll add it back. I'm like, come on, duet. Oh, that's what you're talking about. I see. Yes, yes, yes. They had a duet. Yeah, just that Baba is a future version of Abhi, if Abhi chooses to go down this route. And I think Baba, now in his 50s, 60s, is really regretting this life, and is having to feel the whole weight of that come crashing down so late in life. It's soul crushing to realize the person that you've been with for so long, to have realized that both she and you have been in denial for so long.

[19:31] Teresa Attridge: A character we think about a lot is Bruce Bechtel.

[19:36] Harrison Lewis: No, I'm really glad you said that, because that thread of the story is also heartbreaking, but also beautiful in a way. The idea that Baba has chosen to love Ma as deeply as he possibly can, with the knowledge that she may never love him back, in its own way, that is a love that is pure, and also heartbreaking, and is true to life. Those things happen. People get older, they realize, oh, I've been living this lie my entire life, or I've been in denial this whole time. How do I reconcile that with the time I have left? And we see that complex layer. Again, this piece, I just think of layers, is going on at the same time as well.

[20:09] Teresa Attridge: Who sings this song, though?

[20:12] Harrison Lewis: Yeah, so this song is in the second act, when Karina is feeling a little bit of a strain with Joni, and feeling like she's missing home. She really wants to get on the good side of her parents again. She agrees to see Abhi for one hangout. He comes to the museum where she works, and they walk around the museum together, and they seem to get along. And they basically question whether they can see a life with each other, and whether they can learn to... I won't give away the lyric at the end. You'll hear it.

[20:42] Teresa Attridge: All right, well, who's performing this song?

[20:44] Harrison Lewis: So we have the lovely Sabrina Shah singing, as well as Ruchir Kazanchi. Here is ♪ Musical number: "Throw Me a Marigold" — performed by Sabrina Shah and Ruchir Kazanchi ♪

[24:47] Emielyn Das: From the moment I heard the drums I was down for more. Also, I was like, oh my god, not me rooting for them. I don't know, that's so true. But that's the device we have to like him enough that we're like maybe we also entertain this for her. Well, it's actually, it's really interesting. It's kind of to me playing on a very classic musical theater trope of the classic couple that hates each other at first and then they're trying to figure out there's something between them. Yeah. But what makes this context interesting is like they're asking the question of do I really have feelings for this person or am I actually attracted to them just because this fulfills my parents' fantasy of who I'm supposed to be with?

Which is a very specific circumstance but reads very clearly. And then I love the fact that, spoiler alert, hopefully or maybe not, that they don't end up together. That they actually decide we're better as friends and he actually says that's an upgrade. I was your potential arranged marriage interest and now I'm your friend. The way that it plays against that kind of trope is really interesting. It's fun to write a love song that isn't about love. You know what I mean? A discovery song and getting to know each other song where it's like maybe I could. There are relationships where it's like you don't start out like super into each other and then people just fall in love. Yeah. And like is that a possibility here?

But at the same time we're like, but what does that mean for the cycle? And what does that mean in terms of the story? And we're like one of the really beautiful things about the show and we touched on this earlier. I think it's really hard for some people to understand when you're someone who's not just giving up one facet of yourself. You have to give up a whole identity or a sacrifice for something. It's like you have to give up your queerness. You have to give up your religion. You have to give up your racial identity. Especially if your race and your religion are very intertwined. I feel like we don't talk about that a lot but like ethno-religion or the idea of like a lot of times it feels very one in the same.

You know what I mean? Like when she's at Joanie's and she's like I don't have my tiger balm. All I want is doll and I don't know how to make it. And Joanie's like, I mean I can make chicken noodle soup and she's like, no. It's this idea of like oh yeah I've truly given up everything because for Joanie it's like of course it's always hard to go no contact but it's not as like stripping of every other part of yourself. It is this idea of like even if she's exploring faith and exploring religion and it was a part of her she let go of she's like okay but like it's not like she no longer identified with being whatever race she is or at least that we know of. It depends on what her culture is. You know what I mean?

But it's really interesting to see someone who's truly like is love enough for me to give up everything else. Like literally everything else. One of the most classic musical theater songs is Do You Love Me from Fiddler on the Roof which is an arranged marriage where the discovery is like oh yes after all this time I really do love you. In this arranged marriage context which is not often discussed in musicals though they decide you know this is really not right. It's better for us to be friends. And with that golden age musical theater reference I think Game Master Teresa is it time for our game?

[28:04] Teresa Attridge: It is time for our game now that we're thinking about other musicals. Although I will say this show it's not referential to other things but man does it bring up a lot of other good musicals I love. So this game Barnacles, you know I love a play on 5678 but this is 567-aunt because we got to honor these aunties right? So the idea is my loves, my friends, my barnacles. If you had to pick three musical theater characters to be your aunties to guide you through like seven cycles of this karmic undertaking who are you choosing right? And I know it's a tall order pals. I know did you think of something?

[28:34] Harrison Lewis: I did, I did, but okay I'm gonna let you go first.

[28:38] Emielyn Das: They're thinking hard. Okay great, well so it's a big question. It is a big question and I chose the most stereotypical musical theater characters ever. So I mean I was like of course I need Auntie Mame. We need a little Christmas when I'm feeling down. I've talked about Aunt Eller. True auntie like Aunt Eller like the voice of the community who steers everything right when everything is breaking apart in the end of Oklahoma you're going to be okay. But then I also threw in and maybe it's because my mind is on Fiddler on the Roof but I threw in Tevye actually just because I was like he made me think so much of like tradition without getting I don't want to talk too much about myself but I have felt often the tension between living a traditional lifestyle and living in a more modern context. So those are my answers and so hopefully those are like very golden age and I'd love to hear other interesting answers.

[29:14] Teresa Attridge: I love that. Do either of you have answers? Do you need more time? Do you need a moment which is totally fine?

[29:24] Harrison Lewis: I'd like some time.

[29:26] Emielyn Das: You'd like some time? Harrison how are you feel? Are you new? We can also noodle out loud together like this can be a workshop.

[29:34] Harrison Lewis: Yes, let's noodle. I would love to noodle. Noodle so because I have two and then I keep debating on my third. Okay right so why don't we start there. So my first one Dolly Levi. We're bringing her back. Dolly has been really prominent in the games. The last three games I'm going to Wisconsin in two weeks to help with the production of Hello Dolly so it's been on my mind. We're going to gossip about it later I prom. But yeah Dolly Levi because that bitch loves steering a ship. I actually thought of Dolly Levi and I said I can't. I named her the last two games.

[30:03] Emielyn Das: Yeah no but this is where I come in because like we will not she will not be ignored and I will not start that trend. I of course brought back a classic favorite Elle Woods.

[30:08] Harrison Lewis: Oh my god.

[30:09] Emielyn Das: Elle Woods is one of my aunties because one I love you need a lawyer on the team. You need someone who knows the rules. You need someone who knows about the fuego acolyte in your hair. She's that mix of like pragmatic and positive. Do you know what I mean? And intelligent and great and I feel like she and Dolly would kiki. And then I really struggled with the third because I wanted to go in two very different directions and the first was I was like I need someone who's a little more young a little starry-eyed. I need an ingenue or straight up a child. So I like cycled through. I had Matilda if I want someone to help me be true to myself and believe in my own power and also give me a sense of quiet because with those other two I might need like a break.

[30:50] Harrison Lewis: Yeah yeah if I get overstimulated.

[30:52] Emielyn Das: I also had Annie because I'm like the sun will come out tomorrow famously famously but if I went the other direction I wanted someone older pragmatic no nonsense like I also thought of Aunt Eller give me like an old woman with a rifle and nothing approved to anyone. Let's start there but I also was like truly and he does not get enough love to the point that I'm literally forgetting his name right now. We have to figure it out. What is the name of the elder fatherly figure in Guys and Dolls who sings that one song to Sarah Brown no one likes Irving Irving Irvine am I making that up something like you know what I'm taking it all back actually I'm just I've just had a revelation I've just had a revelation it's happening because we're noodling my third person is the emcee in Cabaret.

[31:40] Harrison Lewis: Oh my god I thought of that too because someone has to keep it real someone has to keep it gay and someone has to keep it political I thought I'd say that so the emcee in Cabaret, Dolly Levi and Elle Woods are my three aunties and that's very that seems very you that's very you.

[31:56] Emielyn Das: Thank you I feel like that's truly my sun moon rising if we're being completely honest and Harrison you were saying you also thought of the emcee in Cabaret.

[32:05] Harrison Lewis: Yes I don't think that's my final pick though.

[32:07] Emielyn Das: That's okay it's mine those are my god it sounds like you've got picks though let's go this time has given me time to solidify my picks incredible controversial yet brave let's do it my first pick is Lucille Frank from Parade.

[32:17] Harrison Lewis: Oh nice we're pulling out big guns.

[32:19] Emielyn Das: I feel like she is the heart of the story and she's like always has your back fights to the bitter end for you bitter bitter bitter bitter believes in you when you can't believe in yourself.

[32:29] Harrison Lewis: Yeah my second pick was Hermes.

[32:31] Emielyn Das: Oh good good call Harrison you're really out here just like spitting spitting laying the game out here like Hermes is a little bit of like tough love action sometimes but needed you know I really want aunties you know I want people that are like gonna stay how it is love and then my third pick I wasn't sure about so this is sort of a rogue answer and no one's gonna understand probably except for those of us that try me so Illinois's the Sufjan Stevens musical recently was maybe one of my favorite things that came out recently and it was really influenced our show a lot with the dance element and how we're now incorporating and it's gorgeous the lead character's modern day partner who they had to dance together on the Tony Awards oh when they like when they're like I remember that viscerally yes the main character is doing all this and like is having a really horrible time and like the partner is just like always there just like giving them a hug that's who I want my third auntie to be.

[33:36] Emielyn Das: Harrison I cannot like you are really slaying this game right now like no one wins this game but maybe you did and with that girl what are you thinking Emielyn that's hard yeah good luck no I you guys all of these answers are like way amazing I feel like I would just have like second choices for these all like I feel like my first choices are I love Elle Woods you like we can have the same god you can have the same answers famously there are people who worship the same god right exactly Elle Woods is our religion.

[34:06] Emielyn Das: Thank you I have a Harvard sweatshirt it's legally blonde merch so funny oh no I love Elle Woods Hermes famously we've talked about that a lot some other people I thought of was Mama Morton in Chicago.

[34:16] Harrison Lewis: Oh that's great great choice.

[34:18] Emielyn Das: She really cracked down I mean when you're good to Mama Mama's good to you is that not karma is she not like a karmic god if you really think about it exactly that's literally karma in her song it's actually Chicago's about karma yeah it's I mean what's the one conclusion we can bring that number to love love her and then oh I was thinking about just in terms of like I don't know when I like picture the aunties like when we picture it we picture them like up on this with our million dollar budget up on this form above the stage aim higher 20 million right thank you 100 million let's just do it with like the band around them and they're just kind of like you know they're in their regalia mm-hmm and they're just kind of they like move really well and I was thinking about someone who like moves like that and I was thinking of Shug Avery from The Color Purple.

[35:05] Harrison Lewis: Oh I just oh have like really good presence and like you just want to listen to her you know you just want to like do what she says.

[35:11] Emielyn Das: Yeah sometimes you need a little glamour magic in your pants on yes and I think the aunties have that element of like girl just have some fun like those are my two just to say that Sugar Avery is a queer character who I feel does not get acknowledged enough you know let's talk about that it's like we never acknowledge that queer storyline in The Color Purple and how groundbreaking it was we like never talk about it or very rarely talk about it I should say yeah but those are great answers look at that I feel like this also was so indicative of our personalities on accident do you know what I mean I was like hey everyone this is a fun question but can you like bear your soul for just right I know it was oh my god gorgeous and we got to share you beautiful souls with our barnacles today and yeah Harrison it was so brilliant talking with you about this piece thank you so much for being here really truly yeah new friends new friend I'm gonna find you on Instagram don't worry yeah anyone can follow our Instagram at seven steps musical and TikTok follow the journey oh the phone is out the phone is out we're warming up our TikTok right now but we have a few videos from our concert up on there or go on YouTube check out Emily you can see clips of this show whoa okay everyone get on the internet right now if you're listening no you're not you're doing both at the same time actually you are listening and doing we are multifaceted beings yes we are well thank you so much for being here barnacles thank you for listening we will see you again soon bye barnacles.

[36:44] Teresa Attridge: Thanks for joining us on New York Theatre Barn's Backstage Pass hosted by Teresa Attridge and Pauls Macs and if you believe in supporting original culture shifting musicals please like, subscribe, and share.