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[0:00] Joe Barros: Experience The Musicals of Tomorrow today. Get a glimpse inside the blueprint of an original musical being developed in real time with New York Theatre Barn's podcast, The Musicals of Tomorrow. I'm Joe Barros. And I'm Jen Sandler. And we're the hosts of The Musicals of Tomorrow. As the Artistic Director and Associate Artistic Director of New York Theatre Barn, we make space to speak in community with musical theatre writers and their creative teams. Lifting up songs from original culture-shifting musicals in development and introducing them to a global audience has become a major part of New York Theatre Barn's evolving story.

[0:45] Joe Barros: Each original musical's intention, content, and journey are unique and extraordinary to the storytellers who create them. We believe that there is no formula for musical theatre except authenticity. We recently spoke with the writer of I Don't Want To Talk About It, Ben Kaplan, and the writers of Mommie Dearest, Christina Crawford, and David Nehls. Our first musical is I Don't Want To Talk About It, which has book, music, and lyrics by Ben Kaplan. I Don't Want To Talk About It takes a deep dive into the complex world of mental health as told by a troupe of mercurial performers to an unnamed protagonist. Through fourth-wall-breaking sketch and song, the protagonist explores the subjects and stigmas of this taboo topic alongside the audience.

But as the show goes on, the fourth wall begins to close, and the narrator realizes that the troupe isn't there for the audience; they're here for him. Through humor, empathy, and brutal honesty, this rock musical pushes the boundaries of how society discusses mental health.

[2:12] Joe Barros: And now here's our conversation with the writer of I Don't Want To Talk About It, Ben Kaplan.

[2:16] Ben Kaplan: All right. How are we doing tonight?

[2:19] Joe Barros: We're doing great. How are you?

[2:21] Ben Kaplan: Doing well. Happy to be here.

[2:23] Joe Barros: Awesome. Can you tell us a little bit more about your show?

[2:25] Ben Kaplan: Absolutely. So, I Don't Want To Talk About It, it's exploring the world of mental health and mental illness through various vignettes and songs and sketches as seen through the eyes of an unnamed protagonist. And as the protagonist is guided through all these different issues along with the audience by this protean theater troupe, the protagonist realizes soon enough that the troupe isn't there just to teach the audience, but they're there also for something much deeper that they're trying to accomplish.

[2:54] Joe Barros: Yeah. Can you tell us a little more about the show's development?

[2:58] Ben Kaplan: Absolutely. We had a concert of selections from this show at Fine Science 54 Below featuring some fantastic performers. Originally, this was just meant to be a 12-song song cycle, and the feedback we got was so positive. And after the show, the song cycle had ended. The next day, I realized that there was so much more to discuss when it came to this issue and that there was so much we could make into a full-length theatrical piece dealing with an issue that a lot of people think is so taboo. And that's one of the main things I discuss in the piece is that because people think it's so taboo, we're not doing everything we possibly can sometimes to really attack the issue and help people.

[3:49] Joe Barros: Awesome. So you have two songs tonight, right?

[3:54] Ben Kaplan: I do. I've got two songs tonight. I'm not going to try to talk a ton about them.

[3:59] Joe Barros: Because you don't want to talk about them?

[4:03] Ben Kaplan: Because I don't want to talk about them. I'm going to let the songs keep talking for me. So the first song you're going to hear tonight is the title song of the show. It's the opening number, and it's sung by this unnamed protagonist.

[4:11] Ben Kaplan: If you could see what's in my head, you'd see a great big mess that I've been making.

[4:31] Ben Kaplan: A giant mass of flaws and fiction, and other things that keep my mind from breaking. But it's going to take a long, long time, so long, long, long, to tell myself there might be something wrong. Somebody force my hand, because I don't want to talk about it. Somebody read my mind, because I can't bear to tell. I don't want to say its name out loud, not something that I'm proud of. So, so, I don't want to talk, don't want to talk, don't want to talk about it. You wear a face, you faint a light, so people won't believe that you're in trouble. It isn't fun, but keeps the peace, and you're not looking to burst someone's bubble. A searching heart you might just find, to your frustration. A door that hides an emotion, borders dream vacation.

Somebody force my hand, because I don't want to talk about it. Somebody read my mind, because I can't bear to tell. If I do not have to name it, then I keep you from my pain, and that's why I don't want to talk, don't want to talk, don't want to talk about it. Somebody made me, see through all my bathtub and my pride. Just try again, and once you take a look inside. The time has come, for me to speak, but what I need to say, I'm still deciding. The nerve's afraid, and it is tense, because who is ready to come out of hiding? And I know it's not a good thing to keep concealing, but it's so hard to tell you how I'm feeling, what I'm feeling. You gotta force my hand, because I don't want to talk about it.

Somebody read my mind, because I can't bear to tell. So you tell me that I have your ear, and you are here to hear me say it. Are you gonna, are you gonna talk? Oh, oh, oh, don't you wanna, don't you wanna talk? I'll tell you time and time and time again that I don't want to talk about it.

[8:17] Joe Barros: Yay, that was great! So we have another song for you, right?

[8:22] Ben Kaplan: Yes, so we've got our second song for tonight. So after I, the night after this song cycle premiered, the next day, I realized that I didn't have a very important issue tackled in the concert, and I sat down and wrote the first draft for the song you're about to hear. So the second song you're gonna be hearing takes place in Act 2 as part of a vignette that deals with a very important topic, that there are millions of people all over the country, all over the world, who are dealing with mental health issues every day for which the proper health care is not accessible to them. And it shows the disparity between those who have and those who have not.

[9:00] Joe Barros: Sounds familiar.

[9:01] Ben Kaplan: Yes. So this song is called Brother, Can You Spare Me a Brain? And performing is my wonderful friend, Bryn Williams.

[9:38] Bryn Williams: You're a man, there's no good way to say it. I need assistance. My head is broken, the battery's low. I've got no cash and no place to go. I'm running on fumes, and fumes run so slow. But before you go...

[10:11] ♪ Musical number: "Brother, Can You Spare a Brain" — performed by Ben Caplan ♪

[15:05] Ben Caplan: Thank you, Jen and Joe, for having me. I really appreciate it.

[15:08] Jen Sandler: Our second new musical is Mommy Dearest, which has music by David Nels, a book by Christina Crawford, and lyrics by Nels and Crawford.

[15:17] Joe Barros: Based on the best-selling novel by Christina Crawford, Mommy Dearest is told primarily from the coming-of-age point of view of a brother-sister pair as they grow up, struggle with adversity, and try to remain family even as they are forced down different paths.

[15:32] Jen Sandler: Issues of family violence brought to light then have yet to be resolved today, and this true story still stands as a catalyst for change.

[15:41] Joe Barros: The musical explores three decades of American culture. And now here's our conversation with the writers of Mommy Dearest, Christina Crawford and David Nels.

[15:52] Jen Sandler: Christina Crawford is waiting on the phone for us.

[15:54] Joe Barros: So Christina Crawford is the adopted daughter of legendary film and television actress Joan Crawford, and David Nels is the composer-lyricist of the great American trailer park musical and its sequel, among other shows.

[16:06] Jen Sandler: When it was first released in 1978, Mommy Dearest made an indelible impression on America's cultural landscape.

[16:13] Joe Barros: It enjoyed 42 weeks on the New York Times Best Seller list.

[16:17] Jen Sandler: It spawned a cult film classic based on the book and placed the issue of family violence in the national spotlight.

[16:24] Joe Barros: Yes, and it's one of my favorite movies.

[16:26] Jen Sandler: Christina Crawford is also an advocate for adoption reform, the rights of women and children, and a pioneer in making family violence an issue of national concern.

[16:35] Joe Barros: Right, and I've had the great privilege of being a part of the development of Mommy Dearest over the past three years, working closely with David Nels and Christina Crawford as the director.

[16:43] Jen Sandler: And I can say that the musical is very different from the movie.

[16:48] Joe Barros: It's a lot like its original source material, the book written by Christina.

[16:52] Jen Sandler: Let's meet Christina, who's joining us over the phone from her home in Idaho.

[16:56] Christina Crawford: Hello, Idaho greets you.

[16:59] Jen Sandler: Christina, thanks so much for joining us. Can you tell us why you decided to make Mommy Dearest a musical and why now? Why does the world need Mommy Dearest the musical?

[17:05] Christina Crawford: You know, Joe, I think that music can reach people's hearts and minds in a way that is unique. And for me personally, writing has always been a very solitary pursuit.

[17:16] Christina Crawford: So working on a musical where you see the words suddenly become lyrics and the scenes become live with music and action and dance and these wonderful performances, I mean, it's been just a joyous experience for me.

[17:42] Christina Crawford: But to go back to why, Mommy Dearest at its core is about abuse of power. And that is something that a lot of us are seeing around us every day.

[17:49] Christina Crawford: The musical itself, Mommy Dearest, focuses on the relationship between the adopted brother and sister. How they survive abuse, abandonment and even total destruction at the hands of a narcissistic, sociopathic Hollywood woman.

[18:05] Christina Crawford: While at the same time, movie magazines were portraying these children as having tremendous privilege, which couldn't have been further from the truth.

[18:28] Christina Crawford: So these two kids that we follow through the musical from childhood to adulthood survive because they stick it together. They never give up. They love one another.

[18:40] Christina Crawford: And the last lyrics in the finale for the musical are, no more secrets, no more lies. We are all accountable.

[18:59] Jen Sandler: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Christina. Wow. When you put it like that, it seems like Mommy Dearest was always destined to be a piece of musical theater.

[19:06] Christina Crawford: Yes, but not without David.

[19:09] Joe Barros: That's right.

[19:10] Christina Crawford: Hi, Christina.

[19:11] David Nels: David says hello, by the way.

[19:12] Christina Crawford: Hi, David.

[19:13] Joe Barros: All right. Well, we're going to let Christina go now and we're going to talk to your collaborator, David Nels.

[19:18] Jen Sandler: Thanks so much, Christina, for being here.

[19:20] Joe Barros: Thank you, Christina. Have a good night.

[19:22] Christina Crawford: Thank you, Theater Barn. Thank you very much. And be safe, be well, and just know that I send my love.

[19:29] Joe Barros: Thank you. All right, David Nels.

[19:31] David Nels: Hi, everybody. Can you tell us how you became involved in Mommy Dearest and how the project has evolved since you've come on board?

[19:38] David Nels: Well, Christina and I had worked together on a New Works Festival here in Denver at an old theater, the historic Elitch Theater. She had created an award for female playwrights.

[19:47] David Nels: And a few years ago, she came out during the New Works Festival to present the award. And she and I got to talking during a party.

[19:59] David Nels: And, you know, she said, I've done a treatment for a musical of Mommy Dearest. And would you do some spec work? And I said, sure. Next thing you know, we're doing a reading in New York City with you directing.

[20:12] David Nels: And it's been a terrific experience working with Christina because we're collaborating on the lyrics, which is not something I would normally do.

[20:22] Ben Caplan, Christina Crawford & David Nehls:

[25:33] Ben Caplan: Awesome. Let's move on to the second song.

[25:37] Ben Caplan: So the next song is what we would call the 11 o'clock number, you know, in musical theater terminology.

[25:42] Ben Caplan: It's a song called "It's Over." It's sung by Christina at the crucial moment where the relationship with her mother is over.

[25:51] Ben Caplan: Now, this is taken from an actual poem that Christina wrote at the time that this happened.

[25:58] Ben Caplan: So this is one of those lyrics that I have nothing to do with. It is all Christina. It is completely from her heart, completely from her own authenticity.

[26:06] Ben Caplan: And yeah, so it has that definite feeling that it is for real.

[26:13] ♪ Musical number: "It's Over" — performed by Christina Crawford ♪

[29:16] Ben Caplan: Wow.

[29:17] Ben Caplan: I just love Tina Scariano. The first time I ever saw her, she was an immediate replacement for Mona Nichols in Prosper Theatre Company's "Death for Five Voices." I thought she was amazing. She didn't know me. She came in and auditioned for a show for me and I wanted to cast her as the lead.

[29:34] Ben Caplan: But the producer told me I couldn't, as good as she was, because he had pictures from another woman who had done the role already.

[29:41] Ben Caplan: So then I remembered her and wanted to work with her.

[29:44] Ben Caplan: And when "Mommie Dearest" came along, she's the first person I thought of and she's been incredible and awesome. Thank you so much.

[29:50] Ben Caplan: And we want to thank Christina Crawford as well. Thank you.

[29:56] Ben Caplan: If you enjoy "The Musicals of Tomorrow," please rate, subscribe, and share.

[30:00] Ben Caplan: The podcast is co-produced and edited by Paul Smock and Hector Flores Jr.

[30:05] Ben Caplan: Our theme song, "The Music of Tomorrow," was written by Lynn Shankle and Sarah Cooper for their all-female identifying musical, "Perpetual Sunshine and The Ghost Girls."

[30:19] Ben Caplan: Join us next time for more of "The Musicals of Tomorrow."

[30:25] Ben Caplan: See you then.