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[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing? Our mission is to give you an inclusive look behind the scenes. We are interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time. This is your Backstage Pass.

[0:56] ♪ Musical number: "Not Today" — performed by Emma Ashford ♪

[2:11] Teresa Attridge: Okay, okay, okay. You're listening to Not Today from the new musical Miss America. Welcome back to part two of our conversation with Emma Ashford about this moving new musical. You'll learn more about the world of the show and the characters that populate this dystopian world that unfortunately mirrors our own. Miss America, a dystopian musical tragicomedy, tells the story of Eve, a driven, idealistic, and accidentally pregnant Indiana 17-year-old on the eve of her freshman year at college. After a failed illegal abortion attempt, Eve ends up at the New Life Center, a pilot prison created by the McGowan administration, which has codified abortion as murder. Over the next eight months, Eve, alongside her fellow inmates, must reckon with parenthood, purpose, and the gendered expectations that confine all of us.

With comedy, heart, and a sweeping score of pop rock and pastiche, this uniquely American coming-of-age musical nods to hits such as Orange is the New Black and The Handmaid's Tale as it confronts what the reproductive laws of today could mean for us tomorrow. Listen all the way to the end for a game where we decide which musical theater characters would be in prison with us and why. Speaking of being a little embarrassed, I do love Officer Peck. In case the Barnacles are curious, that is Officer Peck singing on his own towards the end of the piece, so in a very heavy piece, you have to introduce a little bit of levity, and I love that, that again, he provides that function. It is really true that it's really helpful to make them laugh before you're trying to make them cry.

[3:46] Emma Ashford: Yeah, yes. He's also just happy to be included, you know? Just happy to be there, be part of that song. He got to join in, you know, and that was kind of exciting for him. He got a little too excited, unfortunately. It's almost sad, really, right? Patriarchal values do isolate a lot of men who would otherwise be so, like, comfortable and confident, like, just indulging with people.

[4:07] Teresa Attridge: Yes. You know what I mean? Just without the rigidity of rules and stuff, just being able to be like, oh, I can, like, indulge in these kind of fun things, too.

[4:18] Emma Ashford: Yes. But no, you have to be and talk and act a certain way, and again, it's very interesting because you both really hate Officer Peck, but also feel for Officer Peck. You're like, oh, I know why you're like this, but you need to stop, right?

[4:30] Teresa Attridge: Yes, yes. That is the hope. Yeah. We've talked about so many of these nuanced characters that you've created in such a, you know, rich, dystopian world that feels true but untrue, but going back to our main character, Eve, and her journey with her own daughter and her journey as she's becoming a mother, there's a really moving exploration of her relationship with her unborn daughter. I would love for you to talk more about how you chose to explore that and that journey that she goes on.

[4:59] Emma Ashford: Yeah. So a little bit later on in the show, she goes and visits the doctor in the facility. This doctor is actually a bit of a, you know, an ally amidst all this, as much as she can be, and so she asks Eve whether Eve wants to see the biological sex of her child on the ultrasound, and up until this point, I think she's just turned 18 and she's still in the facility. She's been very, like, I don't want to think about it. I don't want to talk about it. Her mom's asking her about it. Her boyfriend's asking her what's going to happen, and she's kind of been a little bit, you know, immature, and she's a child. She has just decided that she's not going to think about the fact that she's pregnant, but she is sort of confronted with this reality when she looks at the ultrasound and sees that her child is going to be biologically female, and in that moment, she has this wave of realizing that, you know, she is, in fact, going to have this child, you know, no matter what, and kind of this moment almost humanizes what's to come, and, you know, she suddenly feels this wave of emotions that she kind of hasn't allowed herself to feel, even though she has these very strong aspirations and goals, and she still wants to hold very true to them. She's a human being, and she contemplates motherhood for the first time in this song, and that's what you'll hear in Forever.

[6:20] Teresa Attridge: Well, thank you. Yeah, that was a perfect setup for that song. I would just offer that for someone who is a parent, but that experience of seeing this ultrasound photos the first time you see your child move, it does profoundly affect you. Again, I'll talk more about that on the other side. Who was performing Forever?

[6:34] Emma Ashford: It is me. Again, yes, I thought so. Well, Emma was great. This song is gorgeous, and I can't wait for the barnacles to hear it. Here is Forever performed by Emma Ashford.

[6:50] ♪ Musical number: "Forever" — performed by Emma Ashford ♪

[11:48] ♪ Musical number: "Miss America" — performed by Emma Ashford, Alisa Finnegan, and Nina White ♪

[21:02] Pauls Macs: Emma, it's a really moving ballad. I've said it already, but I think this is probably why you were drawn to the musical form. Because music has that X factor of communication where somehow, through the music, there are words okay. The music helps me understand the deepening relationship with her unborn child.

[21:28] Pauls Macs: I shared this anecdote again before we started recording, but my wife, you know, when we first saw our son Charlie on ultrasound, we were told that he was as big as a gummy bear. He started moving and dancing around. We nicknamed him GB. We hadn't named him yet, so we just called him GB during the pregnancy.

[21:45] Pauls Macs: I'd be working and I'd get a text message that said, GB has hiccups right now. That feeling, that connection you feel is from what I have observed to be absolutely transformative. And to see Eve, who was so like, I want to do these things with my life. I don't want to be like my mom. To go on her own motherhood journey is just really, really moving and really powerful.

[22:05] Pauls Macs: I think there's also something to be said when we get into the question of when does life begin, right? Whether you believe it's at conception or after birth, that doesn't stop the fact that in the midst of the pregnancy itself, even if someone is or is not or will or won't be, there is a version of them that you create.

[22:25] Pauls Macs: Because what you're doing is you're imagining, you know, a version of what this thing or this baby will be, depending on how you feel about it, depending on where in the process you are, how you choose to identify what is growing within you. For Eve to kind of have this moment of reckoning of being like, right, yeah, like I am having you, whether or not I believe in XYZ, like you are real, I am having you, that means that you and I are going to be in the world together.

[22:50] Pauls Macs: And what kind of world will that be, right? And sort of, you know, all of the normal sort of things a parent will be like, well, I want to give you this and I want you to have this and I want this. But also for Eve to be like, I literally can't give you this. Like the world is not where I want you to be. And hearing it's a girl when she is in this facility, being unable to make these choices just because of her biological sex and the reckoning of that as well to be like, this is the world I'm bringing you into when I am in this facility.

[23:15] Pauls Macs: You know, I think that there's a lot of really beautiful nuance to this song. I'm curious, in terms of when you write a song for a character who is going through such a strong sort of emotional shift, what are sort of the devices you turn to? Or what are some of sort of the like either musical or lyrical inspirations and roots for that sort of thing?

[23:37] Emma Ashford: These were so cruel. Breathing, breathing, American Jewels.

[23:41] Pauls Macs: Well, step right up, inmate.

[23:43] Emma Ashford: Yes, hi. Eve Randolph, Fort Wayne.

[23:46] Emma Ashford: Only 18, but I already have a criminal record.

[23:49] Emma Ashford: I speak Spanish, Arabic, and elementary French.

[23:52] Pauls Macs: Oh, how thrilling. What for?

[23:54] Emma Ashford: I'm going to be a politician.

[23:56] Pauls Macs: Charming.

[23:57] Pauls Macs: Well, by all means, demonstrate.

[24:00] Emma Ashford: What tu fais centre.

[24:01] Pauls Macs: And what does that mean?

[24:03] Emma Ashford: I love morning sickness.

[24:05] Pauls Macs: Me, too.

[24:06] Emma Ashford: No, me, too.

[24:07] Pauls Macs: No, really, you can tell me.

[24:08] Emma Ashford: No, I'm just mad that I'm here.

[24:10] Emma Ashford: Oh, and you can bet that it all goes round and round.

[24:15] Emma Ashford: Another kid in another broken home.

[24:21] Emma Ashford: Seems they had so much to say about my child yesterday.

[24:26] Emma Ashford: But now they've gone and left me all alone.

[24:35] Emma Ashford: Huh!

[24:39] Emma Ashford: Huh!

[24:40] Emma Ashford: Huh!

[24:41] Emma Ashford: Huh!

[24:46] Emma Ashford: Who's that scarlet harlot looking broken and disgraced?

[24:54] Emma Ashford: Got herself to blame now if she only had been chased.

[25:02] Emma Ashford: Funny how she thought she could avoid a woman's place.

[25:09] Emma Ashford: No more a waste.

[25:11] Emma Ashford: She's Miss America.

[25:15] Emma Ashford: Can't you see? Can't you guess?

[25:18] Emma Ashford: We promise this is not a test.

[25:20] Emma Ashford: And you're the guest at Miss America.

[25:33] Pauls Macs: Now for something completely different.

[25:35] Emma Ashford: Oh, my God.

[25:36] Pauls Macs: I love the satirical tone of this song.

[25:38] Emma Ashford: Oh, my God.

[25:39] Pauls Macs: It's like a doo-wop that points out the contradictions that we've been talking about this entire time, right?

[25:44] Pauls Macs: Within the viewpoint that abortion should be illegal.

[25:46] Pauls Macs: The people who don't think through what's actually going to happen when they make it illegal.

[25:51] Pauls Macs: I mean, again, we talk about musical theater as sort of like a device to get people to learn the lesson.

[25:55] Pauls Macs: In the same way that propaganda is learned, in the same way this malicious compliance is also being absorbed.

[26:01] Pauls Macs: This idea of, like, hey, yeah, we're playing these roles, but, like, we're telling it like it is, right?

[26:05] Pauls Macs: It's done in such a way that you're really absorbing how serious it is and what we are leaving these people to do and, like, the situation that they're in.

[26:13] Pauls Macs: It's so interesting that you use that device with so many different lenses and contexts, right, through this musical.

[26:19] Emma Ashford: I wrote down, who's that girl with auburn hair whose smile once was sweet?

[26:22] Emma Ashford: Smiling now for no one but the toddler at her feet.

[26:25] Emma Ashford: Works two jobs but can't provide the health care her son needs.

[26:28] Emma Ashford: Of course, you see, that's Miss America, that complete disconnect.

[26:31] Emma Ashford: Okay, we're going to make abortion illegal and then we're going to take away your health care.

[26:35] Pauls Macs: How does that possibly work in their minds?

[26:37] Pauls Macs: At least some people who are not politicians could say something like, I never thought about that.

[26:42] Pauls Macs: But these politicians, that is their job.

[26:45] Emma Ashford: Yeah, it leans into the idea of the perfect victim as well, that you have to be this, like, very glossy idolized version of what it means to be in a bad position in order for people to feel bad for you, right?

[26:57] Emma Ashford: So the pageant also brings that sort of image up to me as this idea of, oh, well, I mean, if you're suffering in the right way, if you're suffering beautifully, if you're suffering under these guidelines.

[27:07] Emma Ashford: We're like, oh, your case is different.

[27:09] Emma Ashford: You're the exception to this rule.

[27:11] Emma Ashford: You, we can help.

[27:12] Emma Ashford: It's weird to see this pageant form because we're seeing that, like, there is no such thing as the exception to the rule when the rule is bad.

[27:19] Emma Ashford: Everybody is suffering.

[27:21] Emma Ashford: Every single person in this pageant is dealing with something truly horrific, but they are not going to be taken seriously unless they are packaged in such a way that people will want to consume their pain.

[27:32] Pauls Macs: Which, again, we talk about the consumption of the body.

[27:35] Emma Ashford: Yeah.

[27:36] Emma Ashford: So it's just all of these, like, insane parallels.

[27:39] Pauls Macs: Like, it's giving writing, Emma.

[27:41] Pauls Macs: It's giving writing.

[27:42] Emma Ashford: Damn.

[27:43] Emma Ashford: Well, and then we won't spoil it, but some crazy stuff goes down.

[27:47] Emma Ashford: Some very crazy stuff, but also some very tragic things.

[27:50] Emma Ashford: We won't spoil it, but you'll just have to see the show.

[27:52] Emma Ashford: You'll have to see the show.

[27:54] Emma Ashford: You'll have to support the show.

[27:55] Emma Ashford: You'll have to support someone's right to choose.

[27:58] Emma Ashford: That's the law for enjoying this musical.

[28:00] Pauls Macs: That's the law.

[28:01] Pauls Macs: That's the new law.

[28:03] Emma Ashford: If only that were the law.

[28:05] Emma Ashford: Emma's law.

[28:06] Emma Ashford: We all enter into the world and then are thrust into these gender roles that I don't think anybody chooses, whoever you are.

[28:13] Emma Ashford: And in this song, I just wanted to create a moment where they're in control of putting on those identities or taking them off and poking the absurdity of them and having fun with that as opposed to having to perform for someone else.

[28:26] Pauls Macs: It's like they're performing for each other.

[28:28] Emma Ashford: Yes.

[28:29] Emma Ashford: I kind of also in old musical theater references, I realized recently it's kind of like it's kind of giving Officer Krupke.

[28:36] Pauls Macs: It is giving Officer Krupke.

[28:39] Pauls Macs: Yes.

[28:40] Pauls Macs: In sort of that celebratory aspect.

[28:42] Pauls Macs: It's a good time, and I'm glad you guys enjoyed.

[28:44] Emma Ashford: Oh, my God.

[28:45] Emma Ashford: I love that you're using those Golden Age musicals as a reference, not to say that they're perfect, but there's good things in there that you can take and absorb into your craft for the modern musical.

[28:54] Pauls Macs: Oh, yeah.

[28:56] Pauls Macs: Speaking of other musicals, should we get into our game, you guys?

[28:59] Emma Ashford: Please.

[29:00] Emma Ashford: I can't wait.

[29:01] Pauls Macs: So Barnacles, this week's game is called Center Stage.

[29:05] Pauls Macs: Get it?

[29:06] Pauls Macs: Because they're in a center.

[29:07] Pauls Macs: It's a facility.

[29:08] Pauls Macs: The idea for this is if you were going to be in some sort of holding center or you and three musical theater characters, who are they and what are you in for?

[29:19] Pauls Macs: What is the thing that ties you all together?

[29:21] Pauls Macs: For example, for me, it's going to be Matilda.

[29:24] Pauls Macs: It's going to be Malkior Gabor.

[29:26] Pauls Macs: And it's going to be Anshurla, because it's just a bunch of students really disrupting the status quo.

[29:32] Emma Ashford: As you did in your classroom.

[29:34] Pauls Macs: As I did in my classroom, just trying to lead the revolution from the ground up with the other kids, this idea of challenging establishment from a young age.

[29:43] Pauls Macs: And we'd all be sitting in there just pouting and quoting books at each other, and then all of us trying to figure out how we're going to break out.

[29:52] Emma Ashford: That sounds so intellectual, but also so fun.

[29:55] Pauls Macs: It's just a bunch of nerdy intellectuals in a building being like, this is so unfair.

[30:00] Pauls Macs: How are we going to get out?

[30:01] Pauls Macs: That's what I feel like my sort of crime would be and who else would be joining me in the musical theater canon.

[30:09] Emma Ashford: I got kicked out of religion so many times.

[30:12] Pauls Macs: That's amazing.

[30:13] Emma Ashford: If we had more time, both my sister and my mom got kicked out of Catholic school.

[30:17] Emma Ashford: So I have great respect for the tradition.

[30:19] Emma Ashford: I just didn't end up going.

[30:20] Emma Ashford: And they kind of were like, OK, we should have put her through that.

[30:22] Pauls Macs: Love that.

[30:23] Emma Ashford: Two didn't work out.

[30:24] Pauls Macs: It's giving cycle breaking, to be honest.

[30:26] Emma Ashford: Yes.

[30:27] Emma Ashford: Giving cycle breaking.

[30:28] Pauls Macs: Let's break the cycle.

[30:29] Pauls Macs: But I respect that energy.

[30:30] Emma Ashford: OK.

[30:31] Emma Ashford: I sort of have one.

[30:32] Emma Ashford: It's not as good as yours.

[30:33] Pauls Macs: Well, you could also, you could, I could go, or you could just tell us your crime.

[30:38] Emma Ashford: OK, but tell us your crime.

[30:39] Pauls Macs: What are you guilty of?

[30:40] Pauls Macs: Yeah, I love a crime.

[30:41] Pauls Macs: What are you guilty of?

[30:42] Pauls Macs: What are they putting you in for, Emma?

[30:43] Emma Ashford: OK, you can tell me if I should come up with a different crime.

[30:48] Emma Ashford: But I would say my crime is being a crazy soprano.

[30:52] Emma Ashford: Not crazy soprano like, not like, oh, she's so crazy.

[30:56] Emma Ashford: Good.

[30:57] Emma Ashford: Like crazy like you're fucking insane.

[30:58] Pauls Macs: Insane.

[30:59] Emma Ashford: Yeah.

[31:00] Emma Ashford: And like, you know, it shatters glasses irresponsibly.

[31:02] Pauls Macs: Who is in there with you?

[31:03] Emma Ashford: You're like at a party and you're singing and like everyone's house wear breaks.

[31:06] Emma Ashford: Tupperware breaks too.

[31:07] Pauls Macs: Exactly.

[31:08] Pauls Macs: Just like, oh my gosh, you're doing so much.

[31:10] Emma Ashford: At college, we had these jerseys for like senior entrance thing.

[31:13] Emma Ashford: And anyway, so mine was shattering glass ceilings in parentheses.

[31:17] Pauls Macs: Ah, that's so perfect.

[31:18] Pauls Macs: Wait, I'm upset.

[31:19] Pauls Macs: Wait, does that mean everyone in the facility with you has a matching jersey?

[31:22] Emma Ashford: Absolutely.

[31:24] Emma Ashford: OK, so I'm thinking I gotta be Joanna in there.

[31:27] Emma Ashford: Gotta be Joanna.

[31:28] Pauls Macs: Yeah.

[31:29] Pauls Macs: I love her.

[31:30] Emma Ashford: Your mascot is a green finch or a linnabird for sure.

[31:33] Pauls Macs: That's the mascot.

[31:34] Pauls Macs: I don't know the name of the character, but she sings Glitter and Be Gay in Candide, right?

[31:38] Emma Ashford: Oh, yeah.

[31:39] Pauls Macs: It all comes back to Candide.

[31:41] Emma Ashford: I'm tying it back to Candide.

[31:43] Pauls Macs: I'll look up that character name.

[31:44] Emma Ashford: But Crazy Sopranos, that immediately popped into my head.

[31:47] Pauls Macs: You're absolutely right.

[31:48] Pauls Macs: Is that Kunuganda?

[31:49] Emma Ashford: I think so.

[31:50] Pauls Macs: That is Kunuganda.

[31:51] Emma Ashford: Yes, thank you.

[31:52] Pauls Macs: Kunuganda.

[31:53] Emma Ashford: Yes, and we all knew that.

[31:54] Pauls Macs: I didn't know it.

[31:58] Pauls Macs: I was reminded of it.

[31:59] Pauls Macs: And I've always said that.

[32:00] Pauls Macs: Kunuganda.

[32:01] Pauls Macs: I don't think we've done Candide in the game before.

[32:05] Emma Ashford: No, you're the first person to mention Candide ever.

[32:08] Pauls Macs: I think my third, well, I'm just thinking of Sondheim's so good at making Crazy Sopranos.

[32:13] Emma Ashford: But Anne Ackerman in A Little Night Music.

[32:16] Pauls Macs: Oh my gosh.

[32:17] Pauls Macs: Love her.

[32:18] Pauls Macs: Can't be tamed.

[32:19] Emma Ashford: Honestly, this sounds like a very fun place.

[32:21] Emma Ashford: Like, obviously, we're all in prison.

[32:23] Emma Ashford: Mine sounds like a really angsty place.

[32:26] Pauls Macs: And yours just sounds like a place where people are riffing on each other, literally.

[32:31] Emma Ashford: They're queening out.

[32:32] Pauls Macs: Queening out.

[32:34] Pauls Macs: OK.

[32:35] Pauls Macs: Joanna's already been in prison, so.

[32:36] Emma Ashford: Work.

[32:38] Pauls Macs: All right, and Pauls, what about you?

[32:40] Pauls Macs: Oh, mine aren't as good as yours.

[32:40] Pauls Macs: I'm a director, and the crime that I thought of myself is that I always do that thing where I tell people, oh, run it one more time.

[32:44] Pauls Macs: Run the scene one more time.

[32:46] Pauls Macs: Pauls.

[32:48] Pauls Macs: And I'm like, ugh, I hate that I have to do this, but we're going to have to run this one more, beyond that, you know.

[32:53] Pauls Macs: I try not to do it anymore, but I have done that in my life.

[32:56] Pauls Macs: So I was just thinking about musical theater characters that stretch the truth.

[32:59] Pauls Macs: So I thought about Harold Hill from The Music Man.

[33:01] Emma Ashford: Oh my gosh.

[33:02] Pauls Macs: I thought of Billy Flynn from Chicago.

[33:04] Pauls Macs: And I thought about the emcee from Cabaret.

[33:06] Pauls Macs: And also just, like, being confined with those three individuals.

[33:09] Emma Ashford: Oh my god, that's just four bards in a room.

[33:12] Pauls Macs: Really, four bards in a room.

[33:14] Pauls Macs: It seems like a great time.

[33:15] Emma Ashford: All right.

[33:16] Pauls Macs: I love that we straight up went, like, Disruptive Students, Crazy Sopranos, bards.

[33:22] Pauls Macs: Like, we went, do you know?

[33:24] Emma Ashford: That's an amazing room.

[33:25] Pauls Macs: Yeah.

[33:26] Pauls Macs: Honestly, maybe if we all band together, we can finally fight for the things that we need, both in the theater, in the world.

[33:31] Emma Ashford: Using illegal and legal means.

[33:36] Pauls Macs: Yeah.

[33:37] Pauls Macs: Like with Matilda and also Billy Flynn.

[33:38] Emma Ashford: Let me tell you, again, like, not to be this person, malicious compliance.

[33:42] Emma Ashford: Let me tell you, if you're afraid to break a rule, bend a rule.

[33:45] Emma Ashford: Or follow the rule the wrong way.

[33:47] Emma Ashford: There is always a way to join the revolution, whether you are standing straight up against something or whether you are just shifting the site a little bit towards you to let other people get stuff done.

[33:58] Emma Ashford: But there is always a way that you can help and be there for the people you care about and the people that should be cared about.

[34:03] Pauls Macs: Sometimes you just got to say, that's so well said.

[34:05] Pauls Macs: Hell fucking yeah.

[34:06] Emma Ashford: Hell fucking yeah.

[34:07] Pauls Macs: Hell fucking yeah.

[34:08] Pauls Macs: We swear on the pod.

[34:09] Emma Ashford: Two ways to say it.

[34:10] Pauls Macs: Two ways to say it.

[34:11] Pauls Macs: You can fucking swear on this podcast.

[34:12] Pauls Macs: Emma, thank you so much for being here.

[34:14] Pauls Macs: It was such a delight talking with you.

[34:16] Pauls Macs: What a thoughtful process.

[34:17] Pauls Macs: What a journey we've been on together this evening.

[34:19] Emma Ashford: Yeah.

[34:20] Emma Ashford: We're so grateful to you for sharing your time and your energy with us and for sharing your peace with us.

[34:24] Pauls Macs: You are my Miss America, Emma.

[34:26] Emma Ashford: Oh, thank you.

[34:27] Emma Ashford: You too.

[34:28] Pauls Macs: So, I need to get kicked out of Catholic school, like, all over again?

[34:31] Emma Ashford: I'm going to be so honest with you, it is not hard.

[34:34] Pauls Macs: Well, thank you guys both so much.

[34:36] Emma Ashford: It was so fun.

[34:37] Emma Ashford: You're both so fun and it's a treat to be here.

[34:39] Pauls Macs: Thank you, Emma.

[34:40] Pauls Macs: All right.

[34:41] Pauls Macs: Thank you, Barnacles, for tuning in.

[34:42] Pauls Macs: Including our international Barnacles.

[34:44] Pauls Macs: We love you, but to all Barnacles out there.

[34:46] Emma Ashford: Yes, Miss America, Miss UK, Miss Australia.

[34:49] Pauls Macs: All the Misses.

[34:50] Emma Ashford: All the Misses.

[34:51] Pauls Macs: Bye, Barnacles.

[34:52] Emma Ashford: We love you.

[34:53] Pauls Macs: Bye, Barnacles.

[34:54] Emma Ashford: Bye-bye.

[34:59] Pauls Macs: Thanks for joining us on New York Theatre Barn's Backstage Pass, hosted by Teresa Attridge and Pauls Macs.

[35:05] Pauls Macs: And if you believe in supporting original culture-shifting musicals, please like, subscribe, and share.