This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Martín Acuña: Hi, everyone. I am Martín Acuña, and you are listening to Backstage Talk.

[0:19] Martín Acuña: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Backstage Talk. Today's guest is the incredible Ed Bell. He is a songwriter, author, and music educator with Christian Duhamel. He wrote the Cleveland Award-winning musical My 80-Year-Old Boyfriend for Broadway actress Teresa Bertels. The show has been run at the Merrimack Repertoire Theatre, the Arizona Theatre Company, and the Human Race Theatre Company in Dayton, Ohio. Ed is also the author of seven popular books on songwriting, including the best-selling book The Art of Songwriting. He was previously an artist-in-residence at Pearl Animation Studios in Shanghai, China, and he's worked on projects across the world at theatres including London's Soho Theatre and Crazy Cox, New York's Signature Theatre and Duplex Cabaret Bar, Leeds Playhouse, and at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Ed, I am really, really happy to have you here. Welcome to Backstage Talk.

[1:27] Ed Bell: Hi, hello. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[1:32] Martín Acuña: So, Ed, what did I miss from your bio? Tell us a little bit more about yourself.

[1:37] Ed Bell: Yeah, sure. So, I mean, you know, like most artists, I do tons of different things, but basically I'm mostly a writer, a musician in different ways. So, I do a fair amount of theatre work, particularly composition, lyric writing, writing shows. I also do a lot of education work. I have an online business called The Song Foundry, where I teach people songwriting either one-to-one or through content and blogs and the books that I have. And yeah, I think that's the kind of the main things that I do. So, it's a nice mix of songwriting, but also kind of related writing work.

[2:16] Martín Acuña: That is incredible. And yes, as many of us artists, we need to be like multi-hyphenates. So, it's incredible that you have your education business, but you also write and write not only lyrics, but music. And you have your book. So, that's incredible. So, what would be a random fun fact about you?

[2:30] Ed Bell: Well, I had a little thing about this and there's a couple of different things I could say, but I'm going to tell you my super cool, super New York theatrical story. There was one time, so you might be able to tell I have a slightly mixed accent. I have a slightly weird accent. People often can't tell where I'm from. I was born in the UK. I'm in the UK right now, but I did live in New York full-time for three years, a few years ago. And during the time I was there, a friend from London at that time was working on a few different TV projects as a TV producer. And basically, he managed to get, at that time he was working with Ian McKellen on this project, and managed to get me and a couple of other friends invited to this super cool party on this very New York kind of party on the Upper East Side in New York.

And I think I was partly invited because there was a, well, there was a piano there, but it was a super special piano. It was the piano that Oscar Hammerstein, so obviously had passed down through family and generations. So the piano was there and my friend was like, well, nobody really plays it apparently, so we'd love you to come and maybe you can just sit in the corner and do some of that. So I did, but as I said, so yeah, so Ian McKellen was at this party. It was super fun. And there was a moment he was just like, he gave a little speech and he just wanted to sing. He decided he wanted to sing I Am What I Am from La Cage Aux Folies. I didn't know it. I had to pull it up on my phone for the chords, but so basically Ian McKellen led the whole room in song while I got to play Oscar Hammerstein's piano in the corner. So it was definitely one of my coolest stories.

[4:00] Martín Acuña: That is amazing. I mean, yeah.

[4:06] Ed Bell: I mean, it's a bit random. It's like, it's one of those, you know, those New York stories that is super random. I did not see that coming. I did not think that was going to be on my life, you know, my life card, but that's what happened. So that was super fun.

[4:18] Martín Acuña: Yeah. And that's just amazing to like play the same piano.

[4:25] Ed Bell: That was the thing. That was the thing. So, so yeah, I wish I'd got a picture. I didn't get a picture, unfortunately, but it was one of those. Yeah. One of those New York moments.

[4:34] Martín Acuña: I love it. So let's double click on musical theatre and your craft as an artist. So what, when, when did you know, when did you have that, like that magic moment in which you said, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life?

[4:50] Ed Bell: Right. Yeah. A hundred percent. That's a really good question. So I'd always kind of, you know, even as a kid, I think like, like a lot of us, I'd, you know, I'd been to shows with family and that was a thing I enjoyed. And I took piano lessons, you know, when I was like seven years old and I'd always done this, you know, I used to write songs when I was like 10 years old and things like that obviously, you know, never got performed, but were just fun things for me to do. But the big moment I had when I sort of decided that I wanted to make musical theatre my specialism, I was actually doing, I was living in London at the time. I was actually doing a master's degree. So I was super lucky to be able to do that in, in like contemporary or classical composition.

Cause that's really kind of what's available in the UK. If you want to study music writing, it's kind of in that world. And so I was doing that and there was one moment I remember going home to speak to my parents and I was like, you know, I'm really, I'm enjoying the course. It's really interesting. I'm learning a lot, but I don't know. I don't know. I just feel like I want to do theatre more. That just seems more interesting to me. And it sounds really crazy now, but like my parents were just like, well, why don't you do that? Like, what's the, what's the thing? Cause I think I was in this kind of parallel world, you know, that was interesting and fulfilling me in different ways, but wasn't kind of my main thing.

So that was the moment I was like, oh yeah, no, I can do this. And this, you know, theatre writing can be a thing to specialize in. And yeah. And so, so that was that really, I started working on more projects specifically in that world. And yeah, that's kind of how we got here. As you know, this is like 12, 13 years ago now, but, but that's it basically.

[6:30] Martín Acuña: That is incredible. And since then you've done a lot, like you've done your business, you've written a lot of books, you've written shows. So that is incredible. And in all this like sphere of theatre, why musical theatre? Right. Because you can also do music for like straight plays or other types of theatre, dance pieces, but why specifically musical theatre?

[6:46] Ed Bell: Right. Yeah. That's a really good question. And it really has been a thing that I absolutely focused on. Like, I don't, you know, I would never say never, but it's never interested me as much to write, you know, like background music, incidental music. I have friends that are very good at that. I have friends who do a lot of like film music or TV, and that has never really appealed to me in the same way. I mean, I think that there's a ton of things with theatre. I think one is, one is that it's live. It's just like, it's a one-off, you know, even the, even these kind of like Broadway, Western shows I've run for 30 years or whatever, you know, it's like, it's a one-off, it's a happening there in front of you.

It's different every night, depending on the audience and how it, you know, how it goes and stuff like that. So that's definitely part of it. But I also think part of it is when you bring songs into a story in a really kind of integrated and meaningful way that it's not, the music is just not an extra thing. It's a like really important part of what goes on. And, you know, that's the whole thing with, with a great musical, you have the music and the story and the songs and all the visual elements, costumes and lighting and whatever, that it's just, for me, it's just a much kind of like deeper emotional experience. You know, it's just, and I think that's the thing when people, you know, you go to Broadway, West End, or it doesn't even have to be a show, you know, in a theatre that's that big.

When it's a good show, you come out and you're just like, yeah, I really felt something. I saw things that were exciting. I heard these, you know, these amazing songs, this amazing live music. And it's just the way you can kind of, like, there's kind of no art form like it, right? There's no art form with so many different things that you kind of push together to make one thing. And when it's good, it's really good. So I think that was the, that was the thing. It took me a while to figure that out. But I think that was the thing underneath that was kind of pushing me.

[8:38] Martín Acuña: I love it. That is, yeah, that is incredible. So what's your writing process like for a show? Because you write lyrics, you also write music. Where do you start? Or, yeah, I want to pick your brain a little bit.

[8:53] Ed Bell: Yeah, no, that's another really good question. And I think, I mean, the first thing to say is every, you know, I talk about this a lot in my songwriting education work as well. And I don't just work with musical theatre writers, actually, most of them, but it's the same whether you're doing it, whether you're talking about it, that there really is no like one size fits all process. It really depends on the project. It depends on who you're working with. And like you say, sometimes if you're writing, sometimes I'll write just the music, sometimes it'll be music and lyrics. A fair occasion, it's just the lyrics. It doesn't happen that often. But what I will say with musical theatre is usually the first thing is to figure out the story, is to figure out the plan, is to figure out like kind of what the big, the big picture of what you're trying to create or achieve is going to be.

Because I know I might talk a bit more about it later. But when we were working on My Actual Boyfriend, which is this one woman, one actress musical. And so it's a full length musical. It's about 100 minutes long. So like a full length with an intermission. No, that's a lie. It doesn't have an intermission. How did I not know that? But one of the big things about writing that show is we spent a long time being like, what is the story? Or like, how do we want to use music to like tell this story? Like, what's the whole point of having this stuff here? And lots of conversations about what we wanted the kind of show to be. So I think, you know, it's that joke, like in musical theatre, which comes first, the music or the lyrics?

And you're like, no, it's the book. I think there's a lot of truth in that, that very often you want to be like, like, what? What are we writing about? What's the good, you know, especially when you have multiple collaborators in the room, like, you know, I can't write one version of a show. And the people I'm collaborating with can't write a different version of the show, because then you end up obviously with a total mess. So, so yeah, usually there's a lot of conversations about kind of what's going on. You know, what's the plan? And then I think from there, I think I heard Steven Schwartz say this about was it writing Wicked or something like that? You kind of often just start with like the path of least resistance, like what is the song?

I know a few times with my H.O. boyfriend, with my co-writer, Christian Duhamel, often, he'd be like, oh, yeah, I have an idea for the like lyric of this song. And so he'd go off and do that. And so I'd be like, well, great, bring that back. And then he might be like, don't really know about that song. So what's that? How do you feel? I might be like, oh, no, I have an idea. Let's roll with that. So you really just like, you know, it takes a long time to write any show, you know, even even a relatively short show, there's obviously a lot of stuff to throw in there. So often, yeah, once you've kind of got a plan, it's like...

[11:26] Ed Bell: What feels like an easy first start and it's usually not the opening number. Opening numbers are often written last. That's the thing people, you know, aren't always aware of. Sometimes, you know, it's the big ballad song or it's just another moment that feels like, oh, that feels like a good jumping off point. And then you just do that and then you see if it works. And if it works, great, it stays. And if it doesn't, which it usually doesn't, then you rewrite it, you change it, you kind of mix it up. And if you do that for long enough over and over again, eventually you have a show, you know, that's more or less ready to share with the world, you know? Yeah, absolutely. So let's dive a little bit deeper on this award-winning musical of my 80-year-old boyfriend. How was that process like, working with Christian and writing, rewriting, doing trials, doing workshops?

[12:05] Ed Bell: Right, right, exactly. So this show is interesting in some ways that it was actually conceived. So we wrote the show for this actress, Carissa Birtle. She's a Broadway actress based in New York. And she kind of originated the idea for the show. Carissa's an amazing actress. She also does work in production, but she's kind of a new musical theatre specialist. Like, she wears lots of different hats, but the kind of common theme is new musicals. And she was thinking about projects that she wanted to work on. And so in real life, she had an 80-year-old friend. So obviously, you know, so she kind of jokes about it being an 80-year-old boyfriend. In real life, she's married, but she basically had this real-life 80-year-old man when she was a 30-something actress, who was this kind of, like, surprising, again, like, only in New York, one of those stories.

A very different friend that she kind of, like, contrasted with, and they just managed to, they learned a lot from each other, and there was just a really interesting, unique friendship. And she just had this moment of, like, this is what I want to work on. This is a story, and, you know, there's tons of different parts to the show. But she was like, this is a story that needs to be told. This is a story that needs to exist in the world. So how am I going to make this happen? And so Christian, my co-writer on the show, is a really good friend of Carissa, one of Carissa's best friends. And so she brought him on, and they started talking about stories and stuff like that. Christian was like, okay, this is great, but I think we should work with, you know, with a separate composer and potentially co-lyricist, which is eventually what I became.

And Christian and I had met through a program in New York called the BMI Lehman Engel Musical Theatre Workshop, which you might be familiar about. Some of you guys listening might be familiar about. And yeah, so I just moved to New York to do that program. We'd met through that. Christian and I sat down and had a chat about the show, and it felt like a good fit. And so that was that. That was the kind of very beginning of it. But from there, if I remember rightly, there was like, there's like a New Works Festival in New York. There's tons of, you know, London, New York, have all these kind of places where you can just try ideas out. And we applied for that, not sure we would get it. And we did.

And I think we had like three or four weeks to like come up with 40 minutes of material. So we really just, we just really did that thing of like fail fast, you know, throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks. And we came up with, yeah, it was about 40, 45 minutes of material, maybe like five or six songs, like four songs and other bits and pieces of other stuff. And we put up this very rough and ready version of the show. There was maybe 20, 30, 40 people in the audience. I don't remember exactly. Tons of friends, you know, people like that. And once it was done, people were like, yeah, this feels like a thing. This feels like, you know, this feels like a thing that is worth, you know, spending, you know, a lot of you guys listening probably, you know, will know it takes a long time to write a musical.

Like the average often, you know, six, seven, eight years is a not super long time, you know, to write a musical in less than like two or three years is very fast. So, you know, so it's obviously like, did we want to keep going with this and see where it went? And we did. And the people, you know, the people that were there responded to it in a way we were like, oh, yeah, I think there's something in there. So that was that. And then basically over a period of kind of the next, I think, two years, we did a similar thing a couple of times, obviously, with new songs, more material, things like that. And eventually got to a stage, we did a full presentation, invited kind of really casually, actually, a couple of producers, we knew it wasn't even like an official showing or an official tryout or anything like that.

And from that, we managed to engage a commercial producer. And that's kind of how everything went on from there. We got the show in front of people and in front of theaters and stuff like that. So yeah, it was just really a lot of, again, trying stuff out. What's really interesting is from the first, very first reading we did this 40 minute version, it was very rough, is I think there was like two songs that pretty much sailed through all of the developments and didn't change at all. So a few maybe like maybe tiny changes to lyric or like, you know, like an extra key change and, you know, something like that. But on the whole, yeah, there was these kind of two songs in particular, the closing number, and there's like a big ballad number called The Love Left Behind, which for whatever reason, they just seem to kind of sail through while everything around them changed.

And there's about we have about at least half a dozen full songs we wrote out that were cut at some point, you know, whatever, but but tons of small changes to just kind of like send the story in a slightly different direction or there was a whole, oh my god, I remember there was a whole song called, there's a really beautiful moment in the show where Carissa is this, you know, this younger actress buys Milton, the older man, like a cordless phone because he keeps tripping, he's got a wired phone and he keeps tripping up over it in the apartment. And now that's like three lines of dialogue and it works great and he's like enchanted by this phone. But originally we had this whole like four minute song called Crazy Space Age Magic and it was just about like all the things in the world right now that like someone in their 80s might like know exists but not be familiar with them.

It was a really fun song, but it was just like, we don't need to, you know, it was like a moment that's like, it's not worth exploding for three minutes into a song. It's a fun moment for about 15 seconds of dialogue. Like, so that was that. So there's a few things like that. And the song still exists somewhere. I could pull them out at some point. But, but yeah, I think that's pretty representative of developing new musicals, you know, just again, because there's so many different elements you're trying to get right. And there are so many. I think it's also that thing of like, when you start a new musical, especially something that's original, it's not based on like a novel or a film or something like that.

You can kind of do anything, which is amazing and freeing and super exciting. But that also because you can do anything, you're also like, well, what's the best thing or how, you know, there's so many different ways to kind of crack an egg. Is that the phrase? I don't know. There's so many different ways to go about it with something like that. So it means just trying a ton of stuff out and seeing what works. And that's the only way to kind of do it. But luckily, Christian and Carissa, my co-authors on the project, both amazing artists, but also incredible, you know, incredible artists for like new work. And, you know, we really found ways to support each other and get into a space where we would just try something out.

And even if it totally sucked and totally failed, that's just part of the process. And then it goes, you know, it goes in the trash can, you try something else, or you like, you don't put it all in the trash can, you put half of it in there and figure something out. So, so yeah, it was just really like a lot of that over a period of years that it came together. But that's incredible. And where is the show now? Are you?

[19:02] Ed Bell: Well, right now, I can't tell you any specific details because we don't know what's going to, there's a couple of theaters that we're potentially talking to. We've done three full productions now. So like three kind of, they've been slightly different lengths, but typically like three or four weeks or five, five weeks, I think we did in Arizona. Um, but yeah, so there's a couple of things we're kind of, um, sounding out, but there's nothing official I can share with you yet. But, um, but yeah, that's where we're at with it.

[19:30] Ed Bell: Love it. Love it. So what, like seeing your whole journey in the industry at a high level, how would you summarize it? Right. How would you summarize your journey in this industry?

[19:43] Ed Bell: Yeah, sure. That's a really good question. I mean, I think, you know, I've been doing this 10, 11, 12 years now. Um, and the kind of crazy thing, it's kind of like, what's that phrase? Like, like hindsight is 2020. It's kind of a bit like that, that when you look back, you can kind of see the pieces coming together when you're living it. It's really hard to connect things like that. But it really just has been a kind of like step by step, this thing led to this thing led to this thing led to this thing and it kind of really, really small way. Um, because yeah, one of the things that led to, you know, my HR boyfriend, I made this decision, and I was lucky that I could, you know, move to New York to do this program to be on my program, which is how I met Christian, which, you know, is how all of that happened.

So yeah, it really just is. I think that's one of the hardest things when, um, when you starting out is you feel like you have to do something big, you know, you feel like you have to like turn up at some like Broadway producers house and be like, I've written the best new musical you'll ever see. And like, they're like, yeah, you and like 100 other people, but like, you know, so, so that that's not how this thing works. And again, you know, we keep talking about broad, I keep talking about Broadway and West End, there are obviously two types of theatre that, you know, particularly get a lot of visibility, but there's certainly not, you know, the only types of theatre. Um, but yeah, it really is.

It's kind of like, or I say sometimes with the songwriters I work with, it's really like looking, you know, you can only see so far ahead, but like that, your kind of next challenge is right in front of you is one way you can say that it's like, what, you know, what can you do to take a kind of step forward, you know, because I think a lot of us are focused on where we want to end up, you know, and part of it is in this world of theatre, you know, we don't get that much say in where that happens, there's so much luck and things coming together at the right time, and mostly not coming together at the right time, there's a lot of waiting around and waiting for things to happen. But yeah, I think the biggest thing, you know, being where I am is you just see that it is just like, you know, even small things that help you move forward are the things that lead to the next thing, you know, and I think pretty much everyone's, everyone's trajectory as an artist is kind of like that.

And luckily, not all of the time, but most of the time when you do things, it tends to lead to other things. And that's kind of what, you know, what you do. And if you do that long enough, fingers crossed, it kind of, you know, it works out to some level of stability, though, though, you know, even being 10, 11, 12 years in this, there's not anywhere near as much stability as I thought there might be, that makes sense, you know, that there's that, like the joke, you know, even big, even big Broadway Western stars sometimes finish a show and they're like, I don't think I'll ever work again. I don't know if I'll ever work again, because you don't know, you know, you don't. So yeah, I think that's pretty much it, how this kind of panned out.

[22:32] Ed Bell: I love it. I love it. And you basically just gave a piece of advice, but I want to re-ask you, what would be a piece of advice you would give to someone starting in this industry, or that is currently like, stuck in any artistic process, or just...

[22:53] Ed Bell: I'm really excited to be here and share my journey with you all. It's been quite a ride, and I can't wait to dive into the details of my experiences in musical theatre.

[23:23] Ed Bell: One of the things that I love most about composing is the collaboration with other artists. It’s incredible how different perspectives can shape a piece of work, and I’ve been fortunate to work with some amazing talents throughout my career.

[23:43] Ed Bell: I remember the first time I stepped into a rehearsal room. The energy was palpable, and I knew right then that this was where I belonged. The magic of live performance is something that you can't replicate anywhere else.

[24:03] Ed Bell: Over the years, I've learned that every show has its own unique heartbeat. As a composer, it's my job to find that rhythm and enhance it through music. Each note is a part of the story we’re telling.

[24:23] Ed Bell: Education has also played a significant role in my life. Teaching songwriting has allowed me to give back to the community and inspire the next generation of artists. It’s rewarding to see my students grow and find their own voices.

[24:43] Ed Bell: I often tell my students that songwriting is a craft that requires patience and practice. It's not just about talent; it's about dedication and the willingness to learn from every experience.

[25:03] Ed Bell: One of my favorite projects was a collaboration with a group of young performers. We created a new musical from scratch, and watching their creativity unfold was truly inspiring. It reminded me of why I fell in love with this art form in the first place.

[25:23] Ed Bell: I think it's essential to create an environment where artists feel safe to express themselves. When people are comfortable, that's when the best work happens.

[25:43] Ed Bell: The journey to Broadway is not an easy one, but every step is worth it. Each audition, each rejection, and each success contributes to the overall experience.

[26:03] Ed Bell: I’ve faced my fair share of challenges, but I’ve always tried to view them as opportunities for growth. Resilience is key in this industry, and it’s important to keep pushing forward.

[26:23] Ed Bell: I also believe in the power of networking. Building relationships with other artists can open doors you never knew existed. Collaboration is at the heart of what we do.

[26:43] Ed Bell: Social media has changed the game for many artists. It’s a platform where you can showcase your work and connect with others in the industry. I’ve met some incredible people through these channels.

[27:03] Ed Bell: I encourage everyone to put their work out there, even if it feels scary. You never know who might see it and want to collaborate with you.

[27:23] Ed Bell: As we move forward, I’m excited about the future of musical theatre. There’s so much talent out there, and I can’t wait to see how it evolves.

[27:43] Ed Bell: I think we’re going to see more diverse stories being told, which is essential for the growth of our art form. Representation matters, and it’s time for all voices to be heard.

[28:03] Ed Bell: I’m also passionate about the role of music in storytelling. It can elevate a scene and evoke emotions that words alone cannot express.

[28:23] Ed Bell: I’m currently working on a few new projects that I’m really excited about. Each one has its own unique flavor, and I can’t wait to share them with the world.

[28:43] Ed Bell: Thank you for having me on the show. It’s been a pleasure to share my thoughts and experiences with you all. I hope to inspire others to pursue their dreams in musical theatre.

[29:03] Ed Bell: Remember, every artist has a story to tell, and it’s important to keep telling those stories. That’s what keeps our art alive.

[29:23] Ed Bell: If anyone wants to reach out or collaborate, I’m always open to new ideas and connections. Let’s keep the conversation going!

[29:43] Ed Bell: I appreciate the platform you’ve created here to highlight the voices behind the scenes. It’s crucial to recognize the hard work that goes into every production.

[30:03] Ed Bell: I look forward to seeing how the industry continues to grow and change. There’s so much potential out there, and I’m excited to be a part of it.

[30:23] Ed Bell: Thank you again for this opportunity. Let’s keep supporting each other and pushing the boundaries of what’s possible in musical theatre.

[30:43] Ed Bell: I hope everyone listening feels inspired to chase their dreams and make their mark in this beautiful world of performing arts.

[31:03] Ed Bell: It’s been a joy to share my journey with you, and I can’t wait to see what the future holds for all of us.

[31:23] Ed Bell: Let’s continue to uplift each other and create magic on stage together.

[31:43] Ed Bell: Thank you for tuning in, and I hope to connect with you all soon!

[32:03] Ed Bell: Remember, the stage is a place for everyone, and there’s room for all of our stories.

[32:23] Ed Bell: Keep creating, keep dreaming, and never stop believing in yourself.

[32:33] Ed Bell: Until next time, take care and keep the music alive!

[32:43] Ed Bell: I’m looking forward to what’s next for all of us in this incredible journey.

[32:53] Ed Bell: Thank you once again for having me. It’s been a pleasure!

[33:03] Ed Bell: Let’s keep the conversation going and support one another in our artistic endeavors.

[33:23] Ed Bell: I’m excited to see where our paths will lead us in the future.

[33:33] Ed Bell: Take care, everyone, and keep shining your light!

[33:43] Ed Bell: Until next time, stay inspired and keep creating!

[34:03] Ed Bell: Thank you!