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[0:00] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I'm Celia Keenan-Bolger. And I am Claybourne Elder. And you're listening to Behind the Awards.

[0:15] Bruce Gotlieb: Bruce, I have been waiting for this day for so long because I'm so excited to talk about my favorite show, The Gilded Age. That and Elspeth, you know, I love both of these shows. Yes, those are your top two for sure.

[0:28] Bruce Gotlieb: I know I talk about them way too much, but we are so excited to welcome our former guests, now current guests and friends, Claybourne Elder and Celia Keenan-Bolger to our show. Hello, you guys.

[0:39] Claybourne Elder: Hi.

[0:40] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Hello, hello. Thank you guys so much for doing this. We're so thrilled to have you.

[0:45] Claybourne Elder: Oh, my gosh. So Clay, when you were on our show last year, we said we invited you to come back after the season was over to talk about this season three of The Gilded Age.

[0:57] Claybourne Elder: Yes. And I think at the time I knew some things that were going to happen, but I couldn't tell you anything. And I was like, I want to tell I want to talk about it. I had to keep it a secret.

[1:08] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I wouldn't have let you.

[1:10] Claybourne Elder: No, no, I wouldn't let you tell me because had anything been spoiled, I would have been so upset. I never want spoilers. I like to go into every movie, play, TV show, not knowing even what it is.

[1:18] Celia Keenan-Bolger: So we should say, before anybody keeps listening, if you haven't finished watching The Gilded Age, maybe pause the podcast for just a moment, run to your TV, do a quick binge and then come back.

[1:31] Claybourne Elder: Yeah, because this is a deep dive, people. Spoiler alerts. Spoiler alerts.

[1:37] Bruce Gotlieb: So how far in advance do you guys get your scripts to like, oh, OK, this is what's going on? Is it like in advance? Is it a week before all of a sudden you're like, oh, wow, this is happening?

[1:51] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I mean, I think it sort of depends on where, you know, we I think we got those first four scripts at the you know, before any shooting had begun. And then you do a table read. I mean, one of like the amazing things about being on this show is that when you do a table read, you just like get on a Zoom with every person who is on the show. And the kind of pre-show table read is as good as the actual table read.

[2:11] Celia Keenan-Bolger: But what's crazy, I don't know if you feel this, Clay, but that what the table read is and then what the actual script ends up being, there is usually a big distance between the two. Like they really do, I think, a lot of refining and rewriting and restructuring after that initial table read. And because we block shoot.

[2:31] Claybourne Elder: It's so crazy. Block shooting is basically like how movies shoot, which is that we're not going episode by episode. You're doing it like you're going basically to a location and trying to shoot out all of whatever is happening at that location. So when we go to Newport, we are the Russell Kitchen is in Newport. So we film the first like we had those four scripts. We filmed all four episodes in the kitchen. And I was always just like, where are we? What's just happened? Like it's a strange way. And but then we didn't get this second four scripts until a lot later. And those we didn't do like all at once. It was just like we went one at a time. So we didn't know.

[3:31] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Is that because of the pace that they're writing it?

[3:35] Claybourne Elder: Great question. That's a great question. Yeah.

[3:36] Celia Keenan-Bolger: We'll have to ask the showrunner.

[3:39] Claybourne Elder: Do you get full scripts or do you just get your...

[3:42] Celia Keenan-Bolger: You get the full script. If you're in the episode, you get the full script. Did you get like, do you get episodes that you're not in, Clay?

[3:49] Claybourne Elder: I don't actually. I don't get well, you know, sometimes I do.

[3:53] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah.

[3:53] Claybourne Elder: And usually in the past, I have asked for them just to be like, can I just read what's going on in between, you know, to get a sense of what's happening just on the show. But as I was telling you before, I, in my last, after my last episode, they stopped sending me scripts. And I was like, I don't want them. Don't tell me. Because I want to be. So because I kind of like I went from one episode, I was like on the inside, and like, I'm in the show, and I'm on the cast. And then on the next episode, I was like, I'm just one of you. I'm just watching it. I'm just a person who's watching the show now. And so it was all a surprise to me. I was telling I told, like, I asked Blake not to tell me what happens in the rest of the storyline. And I did have some things. People did tell me some things, but I had a lot of it was a surprise to me, which was fun. It was really fun to be like, that's what happened.

[4:47] Bruce Gotlieb: So we should point out to our listeners, just in case they don't realize that, Clay, you played John Adams, and Celia, you're Mrs. Bruce.

[4:55] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yes, I am. I am not Mrs. Bruce. I know we get confused a lot when I'm in public all the time.

[5:04] Bruce Gotlieb: So Celia, just going back to what you were saying, you don't get a script if you're not in it. But what if they talk about your character? Do you get like that information? Because it might be, you know, relevant to how you're playing the part?

[5:16] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah, I mean, I think this season, even if it was like, for 10 seconds, I was in all of the episodes, so I was able to get, you know, I sort of knew what was going on. But I do think like, it's very, it's so different from theater in the sense that you are really trying to both like, build something within the episode and also build something where you don't know where the arc of the entire season is going. And on one hand, that's like a really fun and it like, definitely keeps your brain engaged in a way that I haven't necessarily dealt with before. And also, you're like, wait, what? I think I would have played that scene differently if I had known dot, dot, dot was coming. But I mean, that's also what's so amazing about editors.

I think that they really, you know, there's like that saying that theater is an actor's medium and television is a writer's medium and movies are directors. But I think I understand that more that like, the writing and the editing have such a huge impact on how the story is told. And I just think, I don't know if you feel this, Clay, like, I really have been trying, I watch Carrie Coon a lot to see what she is doing in her takes to give the editors a bunch of different ideas of how the scene can go.

[6:53] Claybourne Elder: Definitely.

[6:54] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And I think in the theater, what is really valued is that you are giving, that you are very alive with your scene partner, but that essentially you are trying to maintain the thing that you've built with the director at the beginning. And so it's really the muscle of keeping it fresh, but also keeping it very consistent. Whereas I think in television, something I am really learning is like, how can you give as many options to the editor and to the writers as possible so that they can then build something that isn't necessarily on the page?

[7:29] Claybourne Elder: Definitely.

[7:30] Celia Keenan-Bolger: It's such a fine line though, too, because, you know, you want to bring something different, but you also have to keep the same energy because they have to match.

[7:37] Claybourne Elder: Totally.

[7:38] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Otherwise, they won't be able to use what you're doing.

[7:41] Claybourne Elder: Right. It is, it's an interesting challenge that has a whole bunch of theater actors all working on a project together, too. It's nice because it feels, the safety of that for me feels very nice. Like sometimes, sometimes sets, especially like, you know, like procedural sets can get really bro-y. And I oftentimes feel very out of place. Like, I sometimes feel like, even just as a gay person, but also as a theater person that they know as a theater person, that they're like, you're not one of us. Or, you know, like, it's kind of a little bit like, we do things different here. But on this show, it is like, no, we're all meeting each other. Even if you're not primarily a theater person, almost, I mean, almost everybody has a theater background on the show, even if you don't think of them as being a theater person.

But there are so many Broadway people that it is, it's fun to, to watch everyone work in this different way. And, you know, in the theater, we do just what you said, which is like, you're in the creation process during rehearsal. And not that you're not in the creation process during performance and the run of the show, but the, like the brainstorming, the building has all happened. Whereas in this, it's this constant build. And it feels much more to me like improvising the performance in that you have to just be listening to what you are feeling. And like, I don't know about you, Celia, but like, I will write out my script, can write notes in it and do all this stuff and then just throw it all away when I go on to set because I just have to do what happens.

You know, you just have to be there for what happens. You don't necessarily rehearse with the person you're acting with. And so you don't know how they're going to play and how, what their, you know, what their takes are going to be like and how you respond to those. So I feel like for me, I just read the script a bunch of times. Like I read it like 20 times, the whole thing, the whole episode, because you really do get a sense that, you know, like the writer is not just writing your storyline. If you took it all together and put it together, it wouldn't necessarily make a really nice cookie story. They're telling a story through the episode. So you have to know what happened before, sort of like, not that you're playing anything from the scene that happened before you, that has nothing to do with your character, but there is a tone shift.

There is like, you have to know sort of what's going to happen so that you, you can understand the flow of the thing. So I just read it a bunch of times and then you get in there and you just have to kind of be alive and, and see what happens.

[10:05] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I also think just that a real distinction from like what Clay was saying of other television sets is that part of what has, I mean, I've always, I think when you, when you come in as a guest star, you always feel a little bit like an interloper and you're like, they have this like machine that's going and I'm just trying to like not mess up anybody's day. But I also think there is this real sense that I've experienced of isolation on a television set, which is that you do the scene and then everybody either goes back to their chair or goes back to their trailer and goes on their phone. And there isn't this sense of like, we are building something together. And I think pro, I mean, I think there's a lot of reasons for this, but I do think a big part of it has to do with the fact that there are so many theater people on this, but like in between takes, I feel like the number of times that somebody is like, can we keep it down? We need less quiet on sets that everybody's just like, and like having this amazing communal experience that I think is so distinctive of this particular group of people.

[11:10] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, and a lot of you guys probably don't get to be in each other's company because you're always, you know, this project has you here or there, and this one's doing a run of a show and they're eight times a week. So they're hibernating for every other hour that they can. And now you guys are all in the same place. So you try to like get in as much time together as possible.

[11:27] Claybourne Elder: Yeah.

[11:29] Bruce Gotlieb: All right. I think we need to get into the plot because a lot happened this season.

[11:35] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I know we had mystery. We had.

[11:37] Claybourne Elder: I know. I mean, Celia, you were a detective.

[11:43] Celia Keenan-Bolger: It was so much fun, but I will get to that. But not since the death of Gary on 30 something has there been a more shocking death than John Adams?

[11:50] Claybourne Elder: Wow. Clay, did you know from the beginning of the season that your character was going to be killed off?

[11:58] Claybourne Elder: No, I knew they had talked about it, that it was one way they were talking about the story going. And but it was a surprise to me, you know, and like and it's funny because you can both be really sad about it and also know why it has to happen and that it's important for the storyline, you know, that it's like. It's not a personal decision, it's a very you know, like it's a thing that has to happen, but it's funny because when once the scripts came out. So I already knew, but then once the scripts came out, once we had the table read, we had the table read that after after it happened in the table read, it was like, what? Like, I got so many text messages from people that were like, what's happening? What are you talking about?

[12:46] Claybourne Elder: But then also then everyone starts to treat you like you actually do have a terminal illness. Oh no. So every time I would see like my costume fitting, it was like, hey, are you okay? How are you doing? How are you feeling? Like on set, people are like giving me long lingering hugs. Like, I just, I just want you to know I love you so much. Like, it's gonna be okay. Yeah, we'll see each other. But everyone, but it was so lovely. Like, I, you know, my last day kind of shooting a big group scene with everybody, just what Celia is saying about the community kind of aspect where we're all just like chit-chatty playful. And it was shooting something from it was shooting a party at shooting a party at someone's house from like the third episode.

And so a lot of people were there. And I said to everybody, it was like, Hey, can we, we're all sitting in the room together. And I was like, Hey, everybody, can I take a picture with everyone? Because I'm just about to die. And everyone was like, Oh, so we took all these pictures together. And it kind of like, turned into a little farewell party. And that that was when I was seeing all those people for the last time. And like, Donna Murphy gave me this hug. And I was like, you're gonna this is so great for you. And you're going to do something amazing. And I can't wait to see what the next thing is that you're going to do. And this needed to happen for the next thing to happen. You know, it's hard not to feel sad about it, just because it is like, oh, I'm going to miss everybody so much.

And they're and like, the thrill of hearing the fourth season is like, that's so incredible. And I want my friends to like, go on forever. I want it to have five more seasons, you know, but to be like, Oh, I'll miss everybody so much. Evil twin flashbacks, evil twin flashbacks. There's I mean, there's a medium in the show. You've already got a medium.

[14:27] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I just want to sit in the background as a ghost and say devastating things. Like, I just want to be like, around in the corner and get some of Agnes's cut lines. Amazing. I think you should. Um, you know, what's so great about this show is that, in my opinion, anyway, the most beautiful love story is really between John Adams and Oscar on this show. And then Oscar, I mean, I, I guess you must have watched the episode. But Oscar's reaction to John Adams death was just, you know, I'm so glad they dealt with that. And also that he couldn't express what he was going through to anybody. Yeah, did you watch?

[15:15] Claybourne Elder: I did. And you know, it's a really, it's a tenuous thing to write, um, write in a realistic way, what is happening at the time period. Because I love when people are like, you're the gay character. I'm like, yeah, that's how a modern audience needs to interpret that, for sure. But we weren't talking about gay or straight or queer, we were talking about like, this was a was a very different understanding of what sexuality was. And I think that one of the bravest things I saw the writer do in it was when John is like, in the second season, like, I don't know what my life means. But I'm going to try to live it in an authentic way. Because, and for us, as an audience, as a modern audience, we can translate that very easily.

But for a person of that time, where there were people that were doing that, you know, the gay world in New York at this time, it's fascinating. And if you don't know anything about it, and you're interested, go read some books. It is. And there's a queer history of Brooklyn, too, that is really interesting. And they're just like this really interesting subculture of things that really around the turn of the century, suddenly, we got a little bit more reserved and kind of the gay culture got cut back, especially during Prohibition, when one of the rule laws of Prohibition became homosexuality. Suddenly, we're talking about cutting down on the gay bars in New York City, which wasn't until the 1930s. But um, but so it was exciting to, to have that character, try to do something authentic with himself, which was just moving to me.

And, you know, I think that any gay person can understand that the story and like me as growing up a gay Mormon in a very reserved way, Heidi, who I was for, you know, a lot of my life, to feel, to see anyone try to live authentically is really moving and lovely. And I think that it could have been very easily to turn like Oscar and John into a like, competitive, you know, there was sort of that at the end of season one, where it's like, are they gonna hate each other and ruin each other's lives? I think it's so much, it's so much more lovely to be like, no, they're going to love each other and maybe not be in love with each other, as in romantic ways, but they will always love each other. And John would do anything for him because he loves him.

And that was evident. He gave him a house. He even came to him and said, you know, here's money, I'm going to invest, I'm going to like rebuild you in your career up and with so warm and touching that, you know, this character had this, you know, this heart and this love for this person beyond anything that society would accept at that time and didn't. Not that they not that your character didn't care. But that was secondary to lifting this person up.

[18:06] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I think this season really dug into I was just listening to this panel with four black women who are talking about the show. And one of them said, well, kept saying, the respectability politics of the time of just like what that that was in play in so many different dynamics, I think certainly between Oscar and John Adams, between the like colorism themes of the DNA and Jordan Danica story, the the new money respectability of just like what it is in a time period where these social spheres are so sort of encoded in the culture and what it is to move outside of what is deemed respectable or the norm. And I think the show took a big leap this year in really trying to dig into that even more. And I found it, I think with the divorce themes, like it really, it started to try.

I mean, I think what was what's so amazing about this show is that it had a lot of groundwork to lay because there are so many characters. And now we're reaping the benefits of all of this sort of foundational backstory. And it does feel like the show. It's not I don't think it's a coincidence that it had its most successful season at a time when it was also willing to really try to push into some of the themes and cultural tensions of the time.

[19:50] Claybourne Elder: Yeah, sure. And it mirrors what's going on today, too. I was gonna say the cultural tension, all the tensions now. It's no different. Right. So Mrs. Bruce had a lot to do this season. So Celia, you know, you build a character and as an actor, you do your homework. But at what point? So you found out we all found out she was still married. I didn't find that out for a long time. But how did that change the character that you had been building for two seasons?

[20:13] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Well, that is like that's a great that's a perfect example of like playing something one way. I had always imagined that she wasn't married. And then you're like, oh, no, he's in a mental institution. I was like, okay, that's where we go with this. But that's also it's like, I think that's where the kind of imagination of an actor is like such a gift to be like, that's, you know, that that gets instead of it being like, well, what have I been doing this whole time? But it's like, instead, it just sort of opens up this whole other space of what you get to imagine the life before this and what the like, life that we don't see on screen might look like of this character. So it really mostly just felt like a big gift.

And you know, your romance was unrequited. Now, you know, we thought, you know, when we talked to you last, we said, it looks like you're about to have a big romance. And you said, Well, maybe it will say you said it looks like that. Yeah. And I will even say at the beginning of the season, the costume designer was like, I have a few costumes for you. But I'm not allowed to tell you what they are. And I was like, like a wedding dress. And she was like, I can't tell you. But then I think we did take like a six week hiatus or a like a month hiatus in the middle where I think they started to realize that there was a chance that they could get into their season. And they rewrote the back four episodes.

And so I think there was just a lot of you know, that for all of the characters, but I know for for Borden and Bruce, that the way that I think that story was going and then where it ended up going, had a shift. And so I think that's another like, just what we've been sort of saying this whole time of like, both the flexibility of saying like, I just have to be open to wherever this goes and the most important thing I can try to do is be present inside of this scene, like really play the stakes of what's happening in this moment. And that I think, you know, in a lot of ways, that's like real life, like we don't know what's coming. And so all you can do is try to meet the moment with what you have.

And then when you find out things that are like, I would maybe play that differently. It's just like, that's neither here nor there, or that you're just really trying to stay. And I think that's the other part. Clay, I think said this that I never understood the value of a scene partner on television, in the way that I have until this show that I'm just like, if you have actors, like the actors that are populating that world, all you have to do is just like, check in with them, because I think you will get everything that you need.

[23:09] Claybourne Elder: Well, you and Douglas Sills and Jack Gilpin, detecting and figuring out this mystery of the leak was so much fun. Was that just a thrill to play?

[23:20] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Well, it was also so fun, because I feel like you basically see those characters, like I do think we serve a big function, both of like, there's a fair amount of exposition that we have to kind of slip in that is helpful for the show. But also so much of our identity is just like, buttoned up, once in a while, little side conversation. And this had some, I think, also, there was like real hijinks, or like real kind of silliness. And that Sally, who directed that episode, really wanted us to lean into and I was like, is this gonna look like Dum Dums? And she knew exactly what she was talking about that it's like, it's so shouldn't, I think it is fun. Anytime on the show, you get to see people a little bit outside of the thing that we watched them like, in a in a certain role.

I mean, it's like, what's so delicious about what's happened with Agnes and Ada that we're like, oh, we've like seen them, like set in these roles. And now we get to watch them push outside of I mean, that has happened so many times in the seasons with Bertha and George. And it's just it's fun once a show gets to run for a certain amount of time that you have these real idea, ideas of who the characters are. And then we get to watch them like push outside of that. And I think that's that was just like, what was so fun, both about performing, but also about watching all of the scenes trying to figure out who the mole was.

[24:46] Claybourne Elder: And honestly, I'm trying to think I'm not sure we knew for a little bit who it was when I was like, it's Adelheid, it's Aaron Willemy, I feel certain. And then as like scripts kept coming in, I was like, French maid, it's her. So well, Bannister told you, you know, that's right. But early on, very early. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And that's Simon Jones. Oh, my gosh. He's incredible. Yes. Every I mean, I grew up going watching him on stage. Oh, he is. I mean, he's another one where I'm just like, you know, his what he has to do is limited, but it there's so much power and wisdom behind.

[26:33] Celia Keenan-Bolger: What's also been so great this season is that people don't react the way that audiences are taught to expect them to react. So like you were saying, Ada and Agnes, when Agnes gave Ada the head seat at the table, you know, it was so gracious. And you know, but then also with John Adams, for us audience members, we were so mad at Maude Beaton. And he's and he told Oscar, but you were doing the same thing to her. And you know, I don't think Oscar realized that, but me as an audience member, I didn't even realize that. You know, there's a line, speaking of how the scripts develop, we oftentimes there's their lines, there are things that get cut in editing, based on time, based, you know, like, they sometimes need to cut things down.

There's a line that got cut from that scene that I wanted to be in so badly, where he is like, I gave my money to a prostitute. And I said, let us at least call her a former prostitute. I was like, Oh, John Adams, let us at least call her a former prostitute. And it got cut. And I was like, No. But I think you're really right that there's so much subverting of expectations, I think, particularly, there's because of the time period, we just have this sense of how people will act. I mean, I think the best example, especially I mean, this was even in the first season, with George and Bertha that you're just like, Oh, this guy, he's gonna have sex with the maid, we've heard we've seen, we've seen this story once we've seen it a thousand times.

And that there is instead this like, they're a power couple, they have this allegiance to one another and are building each other's brands as it were, with each other so that that it felt so outside of expectation. And I think which is also part of why at the end of this season, and throughout this season, it's felt like, Oh, God, no, what's happening? Like, this is all falling apart in a way that I'm not sure. But you know, they just set us up for something different. And it I think, you know, for something that feels so in some ways, like by the books, I do think their ability to subvert our expectations is like, greater than you might expect going in.

[29:01] Claybourne Elder: I think George has been a little unfair to Bertha, though. 100% agree. He set her up with Paul Alexander Nolan. He told her to charm him. And when she did, he got upset. And then, you know, I think she was right about Gladys definitely not marrying that first guy. He really wants his name away. Yes. Thank you, Carlton. I think. Yeah. Vicki Clark. He was not for Gladys. Yeah, Vicki Clark. That's right, right. Well, that was also fun. Toward the end, you get to see Gladys emerge more like her mother than you ever thought she would be, which is, I'm assuming going to be a springboard for next season and see how that develops. But it gets, you know, a little juicy something. Is she pregnant? Again, as an outsider who is now not on the show, just a fan, whose baby is that? I don't know. Are you big into soap operas?

[30:56] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Speaking of feelings, Clay, though, here's a question for you. Both as somebody who embodied this character, so you have certain feelings and now as a watcher of the show, what do you think of the last scene that now all of a sudden he's going to enter into this relationship? I mean, I was so surprised by that because they both kept it from me and I'm friends with both of them. But I do love again, like we are not talking about we're not talking about modern day. This might be the best one can hope for, and especially for her to be like for her to have come from her background to been rocketed to this status, all this stuff. It's kind of beautiful. These two outcasts might find each other and help each other. I'm kind of like, OK, I can see that. Ghostly John Adams, who will haunt them, can support this in the wedding.

[31:54] Claybourne Elder: Yeah, exactly. What are you doing? You know, I think it's I think it is a really interesting turnabout. And and, you know, I think that it's it's fun to see, you know, there are all these rules, society rules, etiquette rules. And it's really been interesting to see when we play with them and when we break that, because, yes, we have these rules of what they were, but also everybody was also breaking rules sometimes. And so I'm interested. I'm just interested to see what they do and how they play it. I also think like for that partnership, this idea of like women and power on the show that your power, I maybe talked about this the last time we were we were together, but that I think I remember Michael Engler, who is the executive producer and directed the first two episodes.

But he said, you know, these women nowadays would be senators. What is it to be a woman with a huge brain, enormous ambition, ideas about the world and to be put in a place that is basically like the only thing you can do is throw parties and raise money? And it's like, what impact does that have on one sense of self, of one sense of agency in the world? And I think that's where like the conversation of Bertha being like, you got to marry a Duke. And she's like, I don't want to that. I think it's like it is it's messed up, but it is also and she says this. She's like, I want to give you opportunity. And like, it may feel like I'm marrying you off. But what I am trying to do is give you agency in this world.

And like, I think the same is true with Winterton and Oscar that it's like, how can she leverage power? That is based on like where she has come from, and she's like making her way. And, you know, you may not like her motives, but I just think it is very easy for me to give a lot of grace to any woman of that time period because they were relegated to such small role in society. And that I think even I came in with a kind of judgment about like. What am I going to wear or like whose ball is going to blah, blah, blah, like what party? It's just it all felt so shallow and so surface. But I think if you really dig into the time period and you think about what women were able to do, it totally shifted my lens on the way that women were functioning during that time.

And, you know, yeah, Mrs. Bruce has a very interesting line, one of the most interesting lines of the whole season that stuck with me when they were talking about, you know, an arranged marriage. You know, Celia, you got to say, I don't remember exactly, but something, you know, love marriages don't always work out so great either. Yep. Yeah. So, you know, so I think that Bertha has been a great mother to Gladys, actually. And when Gladys needed help, she was right there. I didn't see George going to help her. No, George was having surgery on the dining room table. Well, that came later. She was already trying to get that copper in those mines.

[34:27] Montego Glover: This is Montego Glover and behind the awards, we'll be right back.

[34:32] Claybourne Elder: All right, Clay, can we deconstruct that death scene? Because you did that. That was no stunt man. That was you. It was. And, you know, when they called me to ask me about it, I was like, yeah, yeah, if I'm going to die, I want to do it. Let's do it. You know, and we had like stunt rehearsal and I got the harness on. I was like, this is going to be fun. It's going to be fine. And then we got to doing it. And they like tied me into that thing and got my suit and my everything over it and how it was shot. Like I there was a camera like robot that was like sitting there and it followed me as I walked to the curb. And then it also followed me as I flew up into the air and then hit the ground. And so we had to do it like 10, 15 times just to get the camera moving in unison with me before we even started, because it was a huge move.

You know, like to get that to line up was really challenging. And then we started filming it and they were always like, are you OK? You're OK. And I was like, yes, I'm fine. Yes, I'm fine. I was in it for probably four or five hours. Wow. And towards the end, I was like, I can't feel my arms or my legs and I need this to end. I need us to do this. But my hat kept falling off in a weird way and we kept, you know, but it was it was really fun to do it. And it was my last day on set with the last thing I did. And so after I after we did it the last time, they were like, all right. They did the like, hey, everybody, this is a wrap on Claybourne Elder for the series, you know, and and I said a few words for a minute, but I mostly was like, and I have to leave now because I can't feel anything. And so that was actually kind of good, you know, like it actually kind of helped. I was crying. I was sobbing, you know, but I was like, I have to go. It made it no long goodbyes.

[36:17] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah. Yeah. When you're filming that, are you like is it is it choreographed to like because I'm assuming if this harness is lifting you in the air and throwing you, your body's just going to want to do things organically without thinking.

[36:29] Claybourne Elder: Yeah. But they might not want that because you could be flailing and an arm is in the way or so. Do you have to be mindful of what your body's doing as you're airborne?

[36:35] Yes. And actually, the stunt guys try and like trained me on all of it and like how to how to make my like flail my legs so that it looks like I'm flying and how to like make it look like I've really hit down hard. And, you know, and also it's just it takes so much concentration that at the end of it, when I hit the ground, you have to not be concentrating because you're dead. You know, it's like, right. It's not it's not acting until that moment, because until then, basically what happened was there's like this beep, beep, beep that goes that plays really loudly, like the first three tell you when to go. And then there are six beeps before you fly up in the air. So it was like beep, beep, start walking, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep for you.

You know, so you're just like it is all technical. You're like sitting there counting beeps, trying to make it look like you're not sitting there counting beeps. But mostly it was my back. So it was fine. But having never done any of that kind of stunt work, it was it was an adventure and really like fun. You know, we don't get an opportunity. There aren't a lot of stunts happening on the Gilded Age. So it was, you know, so it was fun to get to do that. It was really fun. And also they layered it too. So they all I was shooting was just me. There was no horse. There were no people. There was no carcass, apples or whatever is there. All of that they layered on later. So I couldn't see what it was like at all. And then I got called in to do ADR, which is like the voice sounds, you know, for the season. And they needed a sound of me going.

[38:20] Claybourne Elder: So I got to see it for the first time and I was like, it was so shocking what they did, you know, like, it surprised me how violent it was. And they said they had to get, they had to get other people in there for reaction sounds and everybody who watched it was like, oh my god, it's so violent and scary. It was very shocking. And it also looked like you were propelled into the camera. Yeah, because that camera was there following me. I mean, it really, it was, yeah. So well done. And then is that so that's the birth of the crosswalk, you know, look both ways. There was a meme someone sent me the day after of it's me holding a sign that says look both ways before you cross the street. And I posted it on Instagram.

I was listening to an expert on that time period and they said that these kind of deaths were very common because the streets were actually it was like New York City traffic now but with horse and buggies back then it was just happened all the time. They don't have numbers counted in the United States at this time period or in New York at the time period but in London at the time period there were 3000 horse carriage being hit by a person or hitting a person accidents not deaths, accidents where a carriage would hit a person in the street 3000 were reported around that year. And that's got to be very underreported too. Yeah, you know, you never know but it was yeah it was a common thing to happen.

[39:50] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Now Claybourne, correct me if I'm wrong but I think I saw your husband on an episode this season. Sorry, did he buy the clock?

[39:56] Claybourne Elder: He may have. Maybe. It was so you know he auditioned for the show at the very beginning when all of us did and then like never heard anything and then just got a call that was like hey you want to come play Mr. Weston and he was like I don't know what that is and he was like I guess there's like something with the clock and I was like are you gonna buy that clock and he was like I don't know but I will say like watching that episode together in our house I and I also just thought that you know I guess he had the one episode where they like pitched it to him and then they had the episode where he actually bought it and the one where he bought it I just thought was like a really really good episode and we were like I can't believe that we get to be on this show together in this wonderful episode and also Blake who plays Oscar his wife is Lady Sarah and so they're really like I feel like they're taking care of you know the spouses and where it's like if you have all this talent why don't you just like bring them in but that was so it was I will also say like our families were pretty excited about that to be like oh yeah everybody's everybody's excited just knowing you and seeing him absolutely so wild.

[41:18] Claybourne Elder: Yeah now Lady Sarah what do we think of her whoo she's tough.

[41:23] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I do think that she is a spicy yeah she is so good I think she even I remember in the table read I was like who dis and they were like it's Blake's wife like oh my god she is she's really really talented and she's an incredibly accomplished theater actress in London and god she was so good she was so good in those episodes and what a fun character yeah I'm so curious like where are that's going that's what I know is she coming back we don't know it's sort of set up that they shipped her off which was fun to see her get hers but oh I love the scene at the table where when she gets up oh and then they put her in place are you not well it's so great so glad I was wrong and it was so fun to see Gladys get some like get her you know like get some power oh it was so good but I love the non-verbals with her and uh Carrie Coon.

[42:22] Claybourne Elder: Yeah yeah it's like watch me I'll tell you what to do I think like a good like there is an interesting dynamic there because and I'm and Gladys has said this a lot she's like I'm not you yeah so what it what is it to be the daughter of this like unbelievably powerful woman and it's like what parts is she gonna metabolize and try to like bring forth in herself and what parts is she gonna be like I don't want to be like that but I think it is like I you know in these families with all of this power and all of this money like what is it to be the child of very significant members of society I think it's like pretty complex and I think especially it's sort of hilarious to me that like you know Larry is like I want to marry Marion and they're like no and they're like she came over and helped on the on the table on the living room table she seems great okay but with the woman it's like no no no this has to be so specific and so exactly like the right not even person but right position and like how hard it would be to be just born into something and like okay now what am I gonna do with it what is what's gonna be expected of me.

[43:50] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Well also Bertha said you know I was no one that's right that's not you you know you're different so Merit Weaver showed all of us what she really came from yeah yeah I love about her yeah yeah these costumes are me not Celia yours might not be of course as a laugh you don't think some of the other ones just my black just my black pinstripe black I get to like change my jabot that's like where they're like I have like four of them they're like what are we feeling today I was like this is where it begins and ends for Mrs. Bruce.

[44:24] Claybourne Elder: Oh well that's right but Celia like you have you know you're a man of the world so you have a little bit more to to choose from any of those wind up home with you I don't know what you're talking about um I you know it was so fun when we started the show they kind of built a closet for us for the men like the women are getting the women of the high society are getting new things made for them a lot but they sort of built these closets for all of us as men and let us pick out some things and like ties and things but then also the prop people had all had like walked us into this room and they were like great here's all these family rings here you're going to need a ring you're going to need a watch you're going to need a cane you're going to need a dress cane you're going to need all these things pick out what you want and so we got to kind of just go even before we knew the characters that well go in and be like all right so I chose this family ring that had a lion on it because my son is a Leo and I was like okay that's a nice thing which I have at home and now and um I didn't take things expensive things like the pocket watch because they were all the vintage things they were real you know oh but it was so fun to have those things you know for the past four or five years always in my dressing room with me um like making this little world you know that was like that was my time to like get into John and see these things all the time it was really nice.

[46:00] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I think it cannot be overstated the level of artistry on that set like and I'm talking from like the guys who are setting up the lights to the cameraman to the props people to costumes like it is truly I think we I feel so spoiled I was filming a television show for AMC and it was a wonderful experience but I was like I couldn't believe how spoiled I am on that show where it's not just like execution but that there is this real pride and level of taste and artistry of like world building that I think every single crew member and creative on that show is invested in and I also think that that is just and and working like you know in a lot of cases there would be tandem sets so like people we would be trying to film a bunch of things all at once and like one house would be filming over here and the other would be over here which meant that the costume people were running back and forth in some cases and really long hours but I just I think whatever we see as viewers where we're like god this show is so beautiful like it feels important to just say like all of that is made by all of these tiny people who are not tiny people but people with seemingly small jobs who are at the very top of their profession that they are like that is why the show looks the way it does it's not just that Kasha our costume designer who is a straight-up genius like it's but it's not just her it really takes a village and I think that that is the part of the show that when people are like oh it's just like so good to look at which it absolutely is like the number of people that make that happen and their own particular investment and and their own artistry and taste is like part of what makes the whole thing the thing and the attention to detail is like right that's not and for everything everything you see there are five things you didn't see like it always amazed me we would walk onto a set to shoot something and I would like open a drawer and there'd be letterhead with my name on it or like even down to the costumes would be like you would never see it but the costumes were embroidered with my initials because that was a thing they would have done like on my shirt um one time during the first season I remember I we were shooting we were shooting one scene we were going to shoot another scene in the afternoon we were just sort of chatting about the scene for the afternoon and I said like the prop guy was like what do you want to be doing because you're sitting and waiting for for Oscar to show up and I was like well it'd be great if I could be reading Leaves of Grass by Whitman who famous gay you know uh author and they brought me Leaves of Grass that afternoon they brought a copy of it that afternoon that they had already managed they had already thought ahead to be like yeah maybe that's something he would read as a as a queer person they just omit incredible amounts of thought and attention and detail that is like beyond nobody is being paid enough to care that much you just have to care and and they really do people they the the crew and and the designers really care about um about the artistry.

[49:28] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Um Claybourne what's the deal Adelheid and Bridget they're stealing your hairdo what's going on there you don't think they all go to the salon like who's doing that hair who's getting them dressed in the morning I was like what's this I literally asked this I was like would we be asking each other to get us into because I have to try I was like let me see if I can get myself in this corset it's like you can't I don't know how you do it and so I'm like if you're downstairs were you just like I'm ready and like somebody comes and is like whoa but like how were hair dressed like what would that look like could you imagine having to do your hair like that every single day I mean I didn't even put on any makeup to do this so you know it's like that wouldn't work back then but you're right how did they ever have any time to work when just getting dressed was such a task and that like upstairs they're changing their clothes there was like that line that Bertha had the season when Carrie Coon was like this and this and then I do this and this it's like four outfits and I was like but she has help yes but that's still like a lot of the picking out what you're gonna wear that's a lot of dresses it's a lot of yeah it's a lot of laundry.

[50:50] Claybourne Elder: Yeah correct yeah she's just making more work for you guys not fair that's right I cannot imagine no I also feel like you obviously your husband we've discovered this husband is away but even if he wasn't I feel like you would never see him anyway because you're at the house all the time and I also feel like you guys are on 24 7 if.

[52:06] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I think also that was more I felt like I learned a lot about that from Downton Abbey of just like the upstairs downstairs, like what is the life of the downstairs? And because you know, we got to watch that show, I had a better sense of what was going on there, but it is definitely like, and just how much a part of the family you are and the expectations. And I think there was a lot of talk about like what, because they're new money, like how are they picking their downstairs versus, you know, what Agnes and Ada have? Like, is there a difference in the way that they're trying to build out their servants? And you know, I think there's all of those decisions are just like so interesting. And then also for someone like you, that if this is the role you want, is it advantageous to take a job with the new money, right?

As opposed to being with somebody who's established? Is that a good career? Seems like she thought so. And also that, you know, they were saying, you know, she probably would have been doing this since she was like 14 years old. Like she's been working on houses, she knows like how all of this works and has known that for like many, many years. And so, you know, I just think to be, I think the part of me that is nosy and interested in other people's lives, like I can imagine it would be really interesting to work in a house and try to read people's needs and preferences before they have to say anything. Like that it's not just about like executing and being able to like run the house. I was also just like, what does a housekeeper do?

What does that mean? Because I'm not cleaning, but like, and I was like, am I like the stage manager? Just terms that I was like, yeah. And they were like, yes, that is right. That you're doing a lot of, you know, ordering and making sure things, but I think also anticipating needs and making things a certain way without anybody having to say it. Like there is something that is very interesting to me about that of like, what is that dynamic of like knowing a family so well that you're able to like know what they need before they even know it or before they have to ask for it? You had a great scene with Carrie Coon where she's telling you that she doesn't know if George Russell is coming back.

And you could see that, you know, that you had to make the decision to say very well, you know, but there was so much behind that, you know, because I'm sure you, Acelia, that would not be your reaction if someone told you that.

[55:05] Claybourne Elder: I think also, and also I just love Carrie so much and I want more, like I want so many scenes with her. And we had a whole bit where she would be like, Mrs. Bruce, come sit on the bed with me and let's just talk. But like that, I do think there is probably that impulse to be like, can I also be a friend to you? And also understanding like, don't cross that line. Like that will create a dynamic that she is not looking for. But that you're right, that me as a person would have definitely been like, let's get into it. Let's just, let's see what we're up against here. I also feel like Mrs. Bruce, also being a little detective and all this other stuff that's been going on, she takes that information and like there for later when we're downstairs. Yes, yes, who am I going to share this with later?

[55:53] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah, I just want to give a big shout out to the Scott family and then Felicia Rashad. We had her on our show recently, we're thrilled. She's wonderful and Brian Stokes Mitchell, amazing. I mean, it's been such a great season for so many different characters. I really, I think the thing I feel the most proud of to be a part of this show this season is that storyline. I think both in the representation of an elite Black culture in New York City, which is something that we basically have never seen on a big mainstream television show. It is 2025, how is that possible? But also then these dynamics of colorism, of what it was to be a free slave to make their way to, you know, for Mr. Scott to make his way as a pharmacist and to face this internal, I don't know what we would even call it, but colorism that's just like, you're not good enough for your family is not good enough for my family.

To see those dynamics and then to see Audra and Peggy or Audra and Danae, that last scene on the stairs, I was like, Danae better get an Emmy nomination for this because this is beautiful. Yeah, just, and I think this idea of worthiness, particularly in 2025 when all of these marginalized communities are, there is this real question in our culture right now about who is worthy and who is not. And I think the resonance of that time for a Black mother to say to her daughter, like, you are worthy of love. I just wept as that was happening. And I was like, it's not just about that time, but it also like that is a story that I think really is transcending like generations and that like is very meaningful right now and important for the culture to have that story in the zeitgeist.

[57:59] Claybourne Elder: And then there's also within the community, the juxtaposition of who is then worthy within themselves. And you have Audra and Felicia's characters going at each other, which looks so good. But you also, there's that balance that has to, you know, be restored or, you know, when Audra was like, I am not from here, I am from Brooklyn. I was like, okay, we're in, we're in. Yes, hold all of my earrings. Yeah, there we go.

[58:34] Celia Keenan-Bolger: All right, so this has been amazing. So let's forget the parameters of real life and, you know, what's actually happened in this show. In your wildest dreams, what would you want for each of your characters' resurrection?

[58:48] Claybourne Elder: You know, if I was going to say John Adams didn't die, I would like to say, you know, there were hints that he had had, like he found another person, he'd found a man that he was with. And I think that I would have wished for a happy ending for he and Oscar where they went and lived at the house in the country together somehow and defied the odds and became old together. That was sort of always sort of my dream, you know, that they would find a way back together despite Oscar's ambitions. But alas, now I'm dead, so now what I hope for Oscar? Yes, you know, Oscar's had so many bad things happen to him, some that he's really himself, yes, most that he's brought on, most that he has sought them out.

He has sought out the bad things. He needs to make better choices. That's all he needs, somebody to shepherd his choices a little bit. But I do, I'd hope that, I think that part of the reason why John needed to die is that something that drastic needed to happen in Oscar's life to really actually change him. And I think that I hope that he is changed and I hope that what happens is, you know, he does seek some sort of authentic self. And even within this lavender marriage, if that's what happens, you know, that he does find some happiness and that he misses John for the rest of his life and has a giant portrait of him in his house.

[1:00:24] Celia Keenan-Bolger: That's right, perfect. You know, I can't wait to see that play.

[1:00:36] Claybourne Elder: I know, I hope it's fancy.

[1:00:36] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah. All right, Celia, what's Mrs. Bruce's?

[1:00:42] Celia Keenan-Bolger: You know, I think based on what we were just talking about, I feel like my dream would be that something that Bertha really needed an ally and she's like, I can't trust all these society bitches. And so I gotta go to the housekeeper and I gotta like, we have to solve this together because I do think Mrs. Bruce is like, if you were like, bring the shovel and ask no questions, she would be like, no problem. But I'm like, yeah, I would like, you know, that I love that dynamic. And I think, you know, obviously the whole thing with Borden feels so full, but I think I appreciate that that is one of those, that is one of the stories where it's like, it doesn't necessarily have to end in like a romance, but that there are all of these different expressions of love on the show and that so many of them are about like partnership.

And, you know, also in the time that was what was expected, but this idea that they can continue to have this like real connection wherever that goes, but that it doesn't necessarily have to be romantic. I actually think is like something a little bit different for the show that I appreciate.

[1:02:02] Claybourne Elder: Yeah, I love that because, you know, a romance is almost the easiest way to go and it's beautiful to show. I mean, there are so many relationships that people, you know, souls are connected and it's lovely. I will say this, just I haven't told this story, but at the beginning before the third season started, I had a conversation with Julian and I had a kind of, and with Michael Engler, who's one of the producers, and I was like, listen, the gayest thing that could happen would be you put John Adams in a room with Train Daddy. We don't have to, it doesn't have to be romantic. It doesn't have to be, our shirts can stay on. It doesn't have to be, he's not, I'm not saying that he's got, you know, questioning things.

Just put us in a room together. That's right, the internet will explode. I was like, just do it. And you know what? I did leave that, didn't happen, but I did leave one little Easter egg, which is in this scene I talk with Oscar at the party. I'm like, oh, the bank is back and it's all thanks, and I look over and I go, and it's all thanks to Mr. Russell. That's important now, that's what's happening up in here.

[1:03:12] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Cool, good to know. Well, the internet is already a, you know, a flurry with you have two things, clock twink and you have everybody wants this Downton Abbey crossover age crossover. It can happen, the musical episode that feels like the other musical. I mean, I don't know how that would ever happen, but yeah, I don't know, a dream, a dream. John Adams comes back and has directs and hosts.

[1:03:38] Claybourne Elder: That's right, there you go. He's at the piano and next up is Mrs. Bruce. Thank you very much, sing for us, sing a song from Spelling Bee.

[1:03:53] Eila Mell: The two of you are angels in real life. Not only do you have these amazing careers, and Celia, you have a second career as this end-of-life doula, which is incredible. What a thing to do for others. But you also both have charities where you are helping people.

[1:04:15] Eila Mell: So, Clay, can you talk about yours? I know we talked about it last time, but let's remind people what you're doing.

[1:04:21] Claybourne Elder: Yeah, it's called City of Strangers, and we partner with community organizations to bring people into theater and to Broadway who don't have access to it or don't feel welcome in the space. So we partner with them. We bring in public school teachers, youth who are experiencing homelessness. We bring in all sorts of people who really wish they could be at the theater and can't be there.

[1:04:46] Claybourne Elder: We also give away tickets sometimes on our Instagram to random people, sort of in the spirit of how the organization started as well. Yeah, I love it.

[1:04:55] Eila Mell: How can people donate and how can people get tickets through you?

[1:04:59] Claybourne Elder: Go to www.cityofstrangers.org, our website, and you can find all the information and you can connect with us on Instagram, which is where we do the giveaways for tickets.

[1:05:08] Eila Mell: Wonderful. Yes, absolutely.

[1:05:11] Eila Mell: Celia, by the way, congratulations on your second Tony Award.

[1:05:17] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Thank you.

[1:05:19] Eila Mell: Now, the Isabel Stevenson Award is the most meaningful because it talks about who you are as a person. So let's talk about this fellowship you have and tell us what it's called and why you started it.

[1:05:32] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah, it's called the Gavin Creel Fellowship, and I'm partnering with the American Theater Wing, who has the Jonathan Larson grant and also does this amazing Andrew Lloyd Webber grant for high school students who are looking to, from under-resourced families who are looking for summer theater arts opportunities.

[1:05:54] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I think a big part of how you get into college and how you sort of grow yourself is in these summer camps, and a lot of wealthy families have options to send their kids there, and a lot of kids from all over the country don't have that.

[1:06:12] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And so I thought, oh, they already have so much of the infrastructure in place, and when Gavin was dying, we had a lot of conversations. You mentioned that I trained as an end-of-life doula, and a huge part of that training was trying to talk to the person who is dying about their legacy and how they wanted to be remembered and what they were worried about that might go away when they had left the earthly plane.

[1:06:41] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And so I said to Gavin, can we start a foundation for you? And he was like, I don't think so.

[1:06:46] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And I was like, what do you mean, why not? And he was like, because then someone would have to run it. And the truth is, I really appreciated that foresight. That is a big job to run a foundation, and I have a lot of things on my plate already, and I'm not sure who would run that foundation.

[1:07:07] Celia Keenan-Bolger: So I was like, okay. And I was like, but if we did have a foundation, like if somebody else ran it, what would you want? And he just said, you know, I wish that people who came from the means that we came from when we were moving to New York City were able to have the kind of support. It was just, you know, we've moved to the city in 2000 and in 1998 when the city was so much cheaper. We lived in an apartment together on the Lower East Side.

[1:07:37] Celia Keenan-Bolger: We each paid $600. It was a two bedroom. And we just had so many opportunities to do things for free or to make a little bit of money and be able to live. And I just think now he just said he was like, I want people who don't come from money to be able to move to New York City and be an actor. And I think the truth is, is that the theater space is so much richer if we have people coming from all sorts of different social, racial backgrounds.

[1:08:07] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And that if the only people who can move to New York City are people who come from money, that all of a sudden our world and our ability to tell stories gets so much smaller. And so when I started thinking about the American Theater Wing and this, I had been asked to do a panel for the Andrew Lloyd Webber summer placement. And I was like, I think that they have the infrastructure in place and that thing that Gavin was saying, which is like, who would run it? And they, without blinking twice, were like, we would be thrilled.

[1:08:37] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And so if you're interested, if Gavin Creel meant something to you, a way that you can participate in his legacy is you can donate to the Gavin Creel Fellowship and you can just text Gavin to 44321 and make a donation there.

[1:08:56] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And I will also say like such a huge part of who Gavin was, was a community builder. And what has been so moving to me about this fellowship, like the number of $25 donations that we have gotten, it's thousands of people. And so that this idea that we are not just giving this financial whatever we can, but also that we are like community building around this fellowship also just feels very much in the spirit of him.

[1:09:29] Celia Keenan-Bolger: So, yeah, that's where a lot of my energy is being focused right now.

[1:09:35] Eila Mell: Well, that's a good place. And I, you know, from experience, I know that the American Theatre Wing, they're a wonderful partnership to have. So you couldn't be in better hands and they know what they're doing.

[1:09:42] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah, they really, and I didn't realize, I always just thought of the American Theatre Wing as like Tony Awards, when in fact, like their reach is so much greater than that space. And that the Tonys in some ways is like the kind of cherry on top, but with the actual work that they're doing.

[1:10:04] Eila Mell: Yes. And they are so much behind the scenes.

[1:10:08] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yes. You know, ever since the beginning, you know, they had a school, an acting school. And, you know, so many of our best actors have come from them. And, you know, they've been doing that all along. And yet people just know the Tony Awards, which is amazing, but that you're so right. And they really care about the arts and about new voices and new artists. So, you know, it couldn't be a better organization.

[1:10:34] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[1:10:35] Eila Mell: So aside from that, not that you guys aren't busy, any other projects, things coming up that our listeners should look for?

[1:10:43] Claybourne Elder: I recorded an album in the spring, the late spring. And so I'm working on finishing it right now.

[1:10:46] Eila Mell: Oh, congratulations.

[1:10:51] Claybourne Elder: Thanks. And it's sort of it's it's I do this kind of solo show that's about the nature of goodness and what kindness is. And so it's the music from that show. And then there'll be kind of a deluxe version where you can hear the stories, which is part of the story of how City of Strangers started is in that story. But so, yeah, so I'm working on putting that together and it'll be out later this year, this fall.

[1:11:15] Eila Mell: Well, when it's when it's available, let us know and we will do something for it.

[1:11:19] Claybourne Elder: Great. Thank you. Yeah.

[1:11:20] Eila Mell: We know we know that you are going to be in a show with the public. You want to talk about that?

[1:11:26] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yes. Tony Shalhoub and I are doing a an adaptation of the Greek tragedy Antigone, which I have to say, if I'm really honest, I think when I first heard about it, I was like Antigone feels like a play for people with a higher education and a different taste in theater than me. And I was like, I don't really think that's for me.

[1:11:48] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And as I have, I think also because it's an adaptation, it's it's set in a much more modern, maybe even postmodern dystopia. But that I do think the thing that the Greeks were trying to do was communalize grief and trauma, that they were trying to make sense of the times that they were living in. And the way that they would do that is they would gather in the amphitheater and they would watch these stories about and particularly like the tragedies where the people inside of the stories learned a lesson too late.

[1:12:30] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And what it is in this moment to get to be a part of something that I really believe is trying to bring us together and communalize our collective grief and trauma of living through these times through this like very ancient text. But that I think has so much humor and resonance and richness. I'm so I feel really, really proud to be a part of it and really excited to do it.

[1:12:58] Eila Mell: And when does that run?

[1:12:59] Celia Keenan-Bolger: We don't start until January. So I've got a minute.

[1:13:02] Eila Mell: You've got some time.

[1:13:03] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah. Yeah. I also just have to say, Clay, when we were in season one, Clay and I were in Newport together and we had been it was the pandemic. So we none of us had really seen any people outside of our little pod. And to get to like I had known you for a long time, but we hadn't ever like really sat at a table and gotten into it.

[1:13:30] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And we talked about like parenthood and singing was like a huge part of what we both talked about, which is like that we had these careers that started with a lot of singing. And then we had done these plays. And so and so much of what the Gilded Age has given me are these like new friendships inside of the community where we have people that I already like cared about and respected. But like to be on this podcast where Clay is talking about putting out an album when just like five years ago, he was like, I don't know if I even want to sing anymore. It's like unbelievably moving to me. And that like that is how far we have gotten to come, both together but also like in that journey. It's like, it feels really, really special that you had both of us on here.

[1:14:20] Claybourne Elder: Now I'm crying.

[1:14:24] Celia Keenan-Bolger: No, I mean, I think, you know, Celia, one of my, one of my favorite experiences on the Gilded Age was not on camera, not working, was times with lots of people sitting at tables at places and getting to know people. But that time in Newport was really, really special to me and our conversations and getting to know you in that way and in a new way was really meaningful to me. So this is lovely. Thank you for having us both.

[1:14:51] Claybourne Elder: Yeah, truly. I mean, not knowing that all of that behind the scenes even was a thing. We just, you know, community and you guys knew each other and, you know, to know that all of that is underneath and so rooted in what just the community is and what all this is is so special. So thank you for letting us be that conduit.

[1:15:10] Eila Mell: Yes, and we have such special feelings for both of you. So, you know, of course, we want you to come on and yeah, together for sure. We love that. You know, it's more fun to do it like this for sure.

[1:15:22] Eila Mell: And, you know, as I was saying to you before, Clay, when we asked you, it was last year, we had no idea that the whole world was going to be talking about you.

[1:15:32] Claybourne Elder: I was going to get hit by a carriage. I was saying to them, Celia, I was in Berlin when it happened and I sort of like knew, I remembered that it was airing and that it was the time but also I was busy doing other things and went to sleep and woke up the next morning to all of these, like, and I was like, there's been an earthquake. New York burned down. Something horrible has happened. I was like, oh no, I'm dead. That's right.

[1:15:57] Celia Keenan-Bolger: You just got hit.

[1:15:58] Claybourne Elder: I'm dead. It was last night.

[1:16:00] Celia Keenan-Bolger: That was funny.

[1:16:02] Eila Mell: Oh, well, I hope we all do this again. And we'll find a reason, you know, just to just to chat, just to catch up.

[1:16:10] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Now we've set a precedent. So, yeah.

[1:16:13] Claybourne Elder: That's right.

[1:16:14] Eila Mell: You know, maybe around the holidays, you guys can both come back and we can talk about charities again and maybe talk about your upcoming play because people will be able to buy tickets at that point.

[1:16:24] Claybourne Elder: Great.

[1:16:25] Eila Mell: And so we will reconvene then. So thank you so much and thank you all for listening and we will see everyone next time on Behind the Awards.

[1:16:34] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Bye-bye.