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[0:00] Eila Mell: It's an age-old question. Where does the character end and the actor begin?

[0:05] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, as we've just seen, Meryl and Miranda Priestly are sort of like twins. Right?

[0:11] Eila Mell: I don't think I'm anything like Miranda Priestly.

[0:14] Bruce Gotlieb: No, no. That wasn't a question. Please, please. Do the honours.

[0:29] Eila Mell: By all means, move at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me.

[0:43] Eila Mell: Hello, and welcome to Behind the Awards. I'm Eila. I am here with Bruce.

[0:48] Bruce Gotlieb: Good morning, Eila.

[0:50] Eila Mell: Well, a reunion is always exciting.

[0:54] Bruce Gotlieb: Absolutely.

[0:55] Eila Mell: I mean, Devil Wears Prada. Who doesn't love that?

[0:59] Bruce Gotlieb: I know. And the three of them, you know, Emily Blunt and Anne Hathaway, you play off each other so well in the movie and even, you know, just imitating some of Meryl's most famous iconic lines from the show. It's so great.

[1:14] Eila Mell: And Devil Wears Prada 3 has been filming in Manhattan over the summer.

[1:20] Bruce Gotlieb: So that's exciting.

[1:21] Eila Mell: That's exciting. Very exciting.

[1:23] Bruce Gotlieb: Sorry, Devil Wears Prada 2.

[1:24] Eila Mell: Two. I'm jumping ahead.

[1:27] Bruce Gotlieb: Obviously, there'll be a third.

[1:29] Eila Mell: I was at Sister Act 3 on the brain, which is also coming.

[1:32] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, really?

[1:33] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[1:34] Bruce Gotlieb: I had no idea.

[1:36] Eila Mell: Whoopi Goldberg, Kiki Palmer. I forget who else is involved.

[1:40] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, that's great.

[1:41] Eila Mell: Yeah. Are you a fan of, like, you know, some movies come out like, you know, a trilogy, like, or, but then there's some that I feel aren't necessarily meant for sequels, but they keep going.

[1:56] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[1:57] Eila Mell: Oh, yeah. There's plenty that keep going and going and going.

[2:01] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[2:02] Eila Mell: Speaking of, I saw recently the last Final Destination movie, which I thought, you know, was going to be schlocky because, I mean, the movie is schlocky to begin with because it's just sort of the style of the movie, but it can be fun. But, you know, like there've been a lot of them and some of them were just, you know, not good. But this last one was so much fun. I mean, you would think the title itself lends to it being a one and done, the final, you know, anything.

[2:31] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[2:32] Eila Mell: Wouldn't get really, but no.

[2:34] Bruce Gotlieb: No.

[2:35] Eila Mell: I mean, if it makes enough money, they'll find a way to keep it going.

[2:38] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, that's a fact.

[2:39] Eila Mell: That's a fact. I know you're not a Final Destination fan.

[2:42] Bruce Gotlieb: No.

[2:43] Eila Mell: I mean, I feel like I might have seen one of them or part of one of them.

[2:47] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[2:48] Eila Mell: It's not your kind of movie for sure.

[2:50] Bruce Gotlieb: It wasn't for me.

[2:51] Eila Mell: No. Well, speaking of being a fan of something, I, for me, the love boat growing up was just must watch TV. How about you?

[3:03] Bruce Gotlieb: I don't know if it was must watch. I feel like maybe I watched something before and it would come on after and sometimes I would stay and sometimes I would just listen to the theme song and then leave.

[3:16] Eila Mell: Well, no one was cooler than Isaac the bartender.

[3:19] Bruce Gotlieb: Wow. Now he's, you know, Ted the playwright.

[3:22] Eila Mell: That's right. So we're so thrilled to welcome Ted Lange to our show. So let's bring him out.

[3:28] Bruce Gotlieb: Absolutely.

[3:32] Eila Mell: Well, Bruce, I mean, the kid in me is so excited because there's an icon from my childhood on our show today. Welcome, Ted Lange.

[3:41] Ted Lange: Thank you very much. So good to see you, Bruce and Eila.

[3:45] Eila Mell: Thank you so much for joining us, Ted. We're thrilled to have you. And congratulations on Lady Patriot.

[3:51] Ted Lange: Thank you very much. It's a play that I'm really excited about. I've been doing it around the country and now I finally get to bring it into New York. So I'm very excited about that.

[4:04] Eila Mell: How did this all come to be for you?

[4:06] Ted Lange: Oh, okay. Interesting story. I play poker. Well, I used to play poker on Tuesday night with a bunch of old Hollywood guys. Some were writers, some were directors, some were producers. And so we would meet and then we would tell stories. And one was a writer named E. Jack Kaplan. Now, Jack was, he worked on Laugh-In. He worked on Tony Orlando and Dawn. And so we would talk about writing. He knew that I was a playwright. I knew that he wrote television. And so one day he gave me a book on a woman named Elizabeth Van Loo. And so he gave me this book and he said, look, I think you'll find this interesting because you like to write history. He knew that I wrote a play about Harper's Ferry and I wrote another play about George Washington.

So I call myself a footnote historian because I like to write about historical events we all know about, but sometimes we don't realize that black people were involved in the event, like Harper's Ferry or like being with George Washington during the American Revolution. He had a favorite slave called William Lee. And so I would write from their perspectives and usually the way you found out about them was in the footnotes. So I call myself a footnote historian. Anyway, he gave me this book on a woman named Elizabeth Van Loo. And Elizabeth was a patriot for the North, even though she lived in the South. She did not want to secede from the Union and I'd never heard that, right? So anyway, he gives me this book and about three months go by, he says, have you read the book?

And I said, no, Jack, I'm gonna get it. I'll get to it, I'll get to it. I had a couple of things on my plate. And then six months go by, he says, have you read the book? I go, no, I haven't read the book. I'm doing this and I'm doing that thing over there. He says, well, then you don't know about Mary Bowser. And I said, who's Mary Bowser? He said, well, she was a slave girl that they put in Jefferson Davis' White House and she was a spy for the Union. Oh my gosh. And I go, Jack, why didn't you say this? Right. He never believed.

[7:00] Ted Lange: Yeah. He said, well, I wanted you to think that you discovered it. So I then immediately read the book and I saw the play almost at once. I saw the play. And so that became Lady Patriot because it's really the story of three women's patriotism. And I asked the question, what then is patriotism? Because Verena Davis was the first lady of the Confederacy. She wanted to secede from the Union. Elizabeth Van Loo was a Southern socialite. She was white. She didn't want to secede from the Union. She wanted to stay in the United States. And so that's her patriotism. And then the third one is Mary Bowser, who was a slave girl, a black slave girl, who knew that this was the moment to free everyone. And that's her patriotism.

So it's the convergence of these three different approaches to what is patriotism. And everyone didn't know that Mary Bowser, although she was black, they didn't know that she could read and write. So she was the perfect person to be in the Confederate White House getting information and sending it to the Union.

[8:27] Eila Mell: Wow, they underestimated it.

[8:28] Ted Lange: Yes.

[8:29] Eila Mell: Yeah, really.

[8:30] Ted Lange: And I've got scenes in there where they're talking about their plans, and she's serving them coffee. She's giving them tea. You know, it's perfect. It's the perfect thing. You see how confident the South was and how they misjudged slavery.

[8:53] Eila Mell: Right.

[8:54] Ted Lange: Yeah, and now with the present administration and what they're doing with history, this play becomes even more important than when I wrote it. Because when I wrote it, it was like, you know, we do it in February, Black History Month. I bring out Lady Patriot. But now they're banning books. So you can't find out anything about Mary Bowser. You know, you can't find out anything about Elizabeth Van Loo, who the South knew that she was a spy for the Union, but they kept it quiet.

[9:35] Eila Mell: Really?

[9:36] Ted Lange: Wow. Yeah, yeah. They kept it. They knew what she was doing. She said what she was doing, you know? After the war was over, she said, hey, I was fighting for this the whole time.

[9:49] Eila Mell: Huh.

[9:50] Ted Lange: So they knew, but the South kept it quiet. They kept saying, you know, Yankee aggression, states' rights, you know, and all of this is in the play. So I'm trying to give an unbiased approach. Like, I don't, I would never want the Confederacy to win. But I still have to talk from their point of view. I have to, for it to be relevant, I have to expand on why they wanted it, you know, why they wanted to succeed. And so I tried to be just in the telling of the story from the three points of view.

[10:36] Eila Mell: Right.

[10:37] Ted Lange: Nobody thinks they're the bad guy.

[10:39] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, exactly right.

[10:40] Ted Lange: Exactly right. We did it, I did the play in Richmond, Virginia.

[10:45] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, interesting. How was that?

[10:46] Ted Lange: It was the capital, right?

[10:49] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[10:50] Ted Lange: It was the capital of the Confederacy. I did it and a woman came up to me after seeing the play and she says, it's good to see a play where there's no bad guys.

[11:02] Eila Mell: Oh.

[11:03] Ted Lange: Okay.

[11:04] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay.

[11:05] Ted Lange: Wow.

[11:06] Eila Mell: Wow.

[11:07] Ted Lange: Yeah, wow. But you know, yeah, yes, that's what she says. Good to see a play where there's no bad guys, you know.

[11:14] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, at least she came.

[11:15] Ted Lange: But yeah.

[11:17] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, yeah.

[11:18] Ted Lange: And the other thing I try to do is I added comedy because I've always had a bone to pick with some of the white historians that do black slavery, you know, slavery from the slave's point of view. I have a bone to pick because, and I have a character that embodies the Uncle Tom, but is he really? You know, is he really? And how they survived, you know, in the midst of this peculiar institution, which the South liked to call it, you know, it's a peculiar institution. But by the same token, how do you survive, you know? And that's what the immigrants are going through now. Right now they're trying to figure out how to survive this administration's assault on immigrants, both legal and illegal. Because it's not just illegals that they're deporting.

[12:30] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[12:31] Ted Lange: They're taking citizens. They're taking people that have been here because of how they look.

[12:37] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[12:39] Ted Lange: You could have written this play with today's politics in mind, but I'm guessing you didn't because plays take a while to develop.

[12:45] Eila Mell: Exactly.

[12:46] Ted Lange: But it became relevant with this new administration. I was just trying to entertain and inform people about American history. That's what I was doing. And now they put the kibosh on us learning anything. And already, I mean, like I call myself a footnote historian because the black American.

[13:14] Ted Lange: American contribution to our history is hidden in the footnotes. If you're writing about George Washington and you find out he had a great relationship with his slave William Lee, you've got to go through not one biography but a couple of biographies to get a cross-section to find out. Because one book will tell part of William Lee's story and then another book will tell you something else that the other guy missed. And then you can put a picture together. So that's why I say I'm a footnote historian. I combed through these books. For this play, I went through 27 books just to get a bead on what was going on with Mary Bowser and Elizabeth Van Loo. And so sometimes people say, well, I don't agree with that.

Or I don't agree with what you said in this play about that. I say, well, if you look in your program, there's a bibliography of the books that I read. So if you have a bone to pick, when they first read, which one don't you agree with? I don't know. Well, then we can find that book right there because you'll find it there. You know, we were able to find any ancestors of any of the real-life people. Yeah. Mary Bowser's story was interesting because after the war was over, the family was scared to death. They were afraid of retaliation once they found out that she was a spy. As a matter of fact, Verena Davis said, well, I don't know any Mary Bowser. I never knew her. And it's a lie. Yeah, it's a lie.

And but it's in the play so that the audience can see. I want them to see what the deal was. But anyway, she kept a journal and the family was so afraid they burned the journal. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. Because they didn't want it to fall into anybody's hands. Yeah. They feared the retribution from the South on what Mary had done. I mean, that's fascinating. It is, you know. Yeah. Yeah. You're like a detective and a playwright at the same time. Well, you end up being a detective when and then you've got to put yourself in their shoes, you know, and that's where the acting comes in. You got to put yourself in their shoes. And so I'm actually Mary Bowser in the play and I'm Elizabeth Van Loo in the play and Verena Davis.

I have a speech in the last scene that Verena Davis gives to a journalist. And it was the hardest thing for me to write because it's everything I hate about what the South did to African-Americans. Right. But she is a patriot. And she believes that she's married to the president of the, you know, of the United Confederacy. But so I had to do her justice. I had to let her have her say. But at the same time, I then come back with the union point of view. So it was good, but it was hard for me to write her speech. You know, I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. And so in the cast are some old friends and some familiar faces to people who watch The Love Boat. You have Fred Grandy and Jill Whelan. Yes. Yes.

That's very exciting. Oh, man. It's wonderful because they're supporting me. They know this is a dream of mine. I asked them to get on this train ride with me and they said, of course. Well, they didn't even hesitate, you know. And what's wonderful is you get to see their talent because they're not playing Vicky and Gopher. Right. You get to see them as actors and they're wonderfully talented people. We did about six months ago. We were in Dexter, Michigan, and we did I'm Not Rappaport. I love that show. Oh, man, it's a great show. So I play the old black guy, of course. Fred played the old Jewish guy. Right. And Jill played the daughter. Oh, perfect. Yeah. It was so we got standing ovations.

They went, I can't believe that Vicky is done. I can't believe Gopher is, you know, it was we had a great time. And so I wanted to open up this opportunity and let people see them in a dramatic as well as comedic vein. And then I've got the original girl that I had as Mary Bowser from when I first did the play. Her name is Christy Farris. She agreed. The guy that's playing Jeff Davis is a pal of mine. He was the original Jeff Davis. They're coming on board. Then I have the girl as Verena. I've known this actress for 40 years. Her name is Josie DiVincenzo. So talented. She's so talented. So they're all my friends are coming on board to help me tell this story. Count Stovall is playing an old black guy, House Slade, named Old Robert.

They call him Old Robert. I'm so excited to see him in the show because he was the first interview I ever had in my career. Is really Count? Count was. Yeah. So he's very important to me. Oh my goodness. And I know you guys are old friends. Yes. Yes. We started out together. And, you know, he came to New York and then he settled in New York. And I said, Cal, I'm going back to. These winters are killing me, buddy. And yeah, he is so good. Wait till you see Cal in this. Well, Bruce and I already have our tickets, so we're so excited. I'm going to say hello to you. We're going to say hello to Cal. We're going to, you know, we're so excited to do that. Oh, excellent. I'm going to tell them that we talked.

Oh, good. Good. Good. It was a long time ago. Do you know what night you're coming? I think we're coming September 9th. Is that right, Bruce? I believe so. I think that's the opening night. Yeah, that's the opening night. So I'm going to put some pressure on him and say, you know, Eila's in the audience. You got to get good, you know.

[20:47] Kevin Solak: Hi, this is Kevin Solak and we'll be right back with Behind the Awards.

[20:52] Ted Lange: So does Fred Grandy bring a unique perspective to the show, having been an actual politician? Well, yeah, he does. As a matter of fact, he's a Republican and I'm a Democrat. So we have some feisty conversation. Yeah, I'm sure. And the thing about it is this. Fred is a writer. He wrote episodes of The Love Boat. I wrote episodes of The Love Boat. Then I veered off into playwriting when the show ended. He veered off into politics when the show ended. But like we respect each other. OK, regardless, we respect each other. So he called me up and he said, you know, I got an idea for the character. What do you think of this? And he's spot on. And so I say, OK, let's add that. And what I do, Eila and Bruce, is because I'm an actor, I say to my actors, I said, look, when you're researching your role, if you find something that's not in the play that you think I can use, let me know.

And we'll put it in. You tell me why you want it in. And if I don't agree, I'll tell you why I don't agree. But if I do agree, I'll thank you and take credit. So, for instance, when I did George Washington, the actress I had, her name was Connie. She found that Martha Washington used to call him Papa. She didn't call him George. She called him Papa. So we put it in, you know, and it's things like that because actors do their if you have good actors, they'll do their own research. And I can't discover everything. But if it fits into the framework of what we're doing, I am not opposed to rewriting and adding it in. And that's part of the fun of doing a play like a history play, because somebody comes in and says, hey, you know, they used to call it the peculiar institution.

That's pretty good. Where can I where can I use that? That's, you know, and you put it in. And I guess that's the beauty of you directing the piece as well as writing it. You have the ability to just sit down and tweak where you need to. Not that you wouldn't do that as a writer, but from your own vision of what you're looking the piece to translate to. Yeah. And I always say to the actor, this is why I say yes. And this is why I say no. So like if maybe they might come in with something that doesn't fit in the structure of what we're trying to the story we're trying to tell, and I'll show them why it doesn't. You know, I just did a play just before I left Los Angeles. I have a comedy with four black women.

It's called Four Queens, No Trump. Okay. Yeah, it's a good play. And we got a standing ovation. We did it in L.A. just before I left. We got a standing ovation. Everybody loved it. But the actress we were we did a reading of the play and in it takes place in 1997. And so the girl says, well, why don't like instead of putting on a record, why don't I put on a cassette? I said, no, I don't want you to put on a cassette. Well, cassette is what was happening in 1997. And so I just real, real simple, just put on a cassette. And I said, well, the playwright would like you to put up. Because he wrote it in 1997 and then 1997. That's what we did. We put on a record. So let's stick with what the playwright wants.

Yeah. Oh, it was always a choice. It was always that it wasn't just that one or the other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's easier to sing a pantomime of a record than it is a cassette, you know, and that's the other thing. So, yeah. Anyway, so but that's what you do. That's for me, the fun of collaboration, of working with actors and having them free enough, feel free enough to add to the mix, you know, and I want you to add to the mix. And if it works, everybody knows it, you know, everybody can feel it, can see it. And I think it also then gives the actors confidence to go the extra yard, you know, for sure. And it also brings an element that you never could anticipate when you start out because it's another perspective. So exactly, exactly. Eila, that's right on the money, baby. That's right on the money. Yeah.

[26:03] Eila Mell: So I'm so impressed because, I mean, obviously everyone knows you from The Love Boat, but clearly that's not where your career started. And I know that you were involved in some very important plays in New York. So you were involved with Hair, the original Hair.

[26:17] Ted Lange: Yes, yes. And it's supposed to die a natural death.

[26:20] Eila Mell: Yes, yeah. Oh, wow. Eila, I'm impressed. Yes, that's very true.

[26:28] Ted Lange: What was it like working on those shows?

[26:58] Ted Lange: And I said, you know, Tom, I'm thinking about being a director. Is it all right if, if you if I become your mentee and you kind of show me what and why are you doing these things? Because he was directing a lot back then. He directed Lenny after Hair. And he said, No, Ted, I don't want to do that.

[27:24] Ted Lange: What? What? Come on, man. What are you talking about? He said, The best way for you to learn is to direct. Go out. Don't be sitting behind me over my shoulder asking me questions. Just go out and do it.

[27:40] Ted Lange: And that was actually some very sound advice, because then you start seeing what another director achieves and you find your way, not his way. You find your own way of achieving your goals.

[27:59] Ted Lange: So that was the thing about Hair is I got to work with Tom Horgan and the cast. What all went on? Ben Vereen, Meat Loaf, all of these guys went on to bigger and better things.

[28:13] Ted Lange: And then I did Ain't Supposed to Die a Natural Death. And they at that time, they were the finest black actors in New York City in that play. And I got to be counted with those guys. I got to put my talent on the line with some of those guys.

[28:39] Ted Lange: And some of those guys were impressed. And that's how I became a playwright. Oh, I'll tell you a real quick story. There was a guy I understudied six people. One of them was a guy named Sati Jamal, and he was going to NYU and he was studying directing.

[29:00] Ted Lange: And here was my life lesson I learned. So I went on for Sati one time and everybody said, Wow, you're good, man. You did a great job. And it was different from Sati. It wasn't a carbon copy. You know, we like what you did. And so I thought, I'm going to be a star tomorrow.

[29:20] Ted Lange: Nothing happened. Nothing happened. So I wrote a one act play. And there was another actor in the show with me. Felicia Rashard was understudying and a guy named Roger Robinson who went on to get a Tony.

[29:39] Ted Lange: Yes. Years later, he got a Tony for the Lincoln Center production of an August Wilson play.

[29:47] Ted Lange: Was it two trains running?

[29:48] Bruce Gotlieb: Joe Turner's coming on.

[29:49] Ted Lange: Oh, Joe Turner. Okay.

[29:52] Ted Lange: Yeah. And so I write this one act play. And I go to Roger because he has a, he's over new playwrights at the Negro Ensemble Company. And I say, Hey, Roger, where do I submit my play? Because I want to, he says, You got a play? I say, Yeah, I want to submit my play. What kind of play? It's a one act play.

[30:17] Ted Lange: Well, let me read it. Let me read it. I said, Oh, okay. And then I'll put it in if I like it. I said, Oh, okay. So he takes my play, reads it, comes back the next day, gives it back to me. He said, Ted, this is the worst play that I have ever read.

[30:36] Ted Lange: Oh, no.

[30:38] Ted Lange: Yeah, I'm gonna do you a favor. We're not going to submit this play. This is terrible. You have cockroaches talking in the play, and you have a girl from another planet that is a plant.

[30:53] Ted Lange: Oh, wow.

[31:24] Ted Lange: I said, No, Sati, this isn't a good play. You don't want to. He said, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me read it. Let me read it. So I said, Okay. So I gave him the script. Okay. He reads the same pages that Roger Robinson read.

[31:40] Ted Lange: And beat you up over.

[31:42] Ted Lange: Yeah, he comes back and he says, This is the greatest play I ever read.

[31:49] Ted Lange: Oh, my gosh, how funny.

[31:51] Ted Lange: That's such a good lesson.

[31:52] Ted Lange: Yeah, it's a great lesson. You have to write what you see. You can't write for an audience. You can't write for what you think someone else wants.

[32:02] Ted Lange: He says, I'm in the directing branch of NYU. I have to do a master's thesis. I want to direct this play.

[32:12] Bruce Gotlieb: Wow.

[32:15] Ted Lange: I said, Fantastic. But that was my life lesson right there. There's one guy that totally hated it, another guy that totally loved it. So don't apologize. Just write.

[32:30] Ted Lange: It's one of my favorite things about theater. I say it all the time is, you know how subjective it is and you can go see something with 10 other people and nine of you have different theories.

[32:41] Ted Lange: You know, all 10 of you really have different thoughts about the same thing that you saw some like it some don't and everything in between.

[32:48] Ted Lange: Yeah, I saw Suffragettes. Did you guys see Suffragettes?

[32:52] Bruce Gotlieb: Bruce did.

[32:54] Ted Lange: On Broadway?

[32:55] Ted Lange: Yeah, yeah. Remember, this is about women getting the right to vote. Well, came back after intermission, all these white guys had left.

[33:05] Ted Lange: Right.

[33:06] Ted Lange: They all left. They got mad. And they got up and walked out of the play. And I said to myself, What did you think you're gonna see?

[33:14] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, why go then?

[33:15] Ted Lange: Right.

[33:16] Ted Lange: You know, it's about women getting a chance, you know, and women complimenting women. And I think they did it in a wonderful way.

[33:26] Bruce Gotlieb: They did.

[33:27] Ted Lange: They had women playing men. They had, you know what I mean? They had this, they had a woman in a wheelchair. You know, they, it was a perfect commentary on life in America and how the women had to struggle to get some equality.

[33:46] Ted Lange: But these guys, I saw these, because you know, somebody would do something and they go like this, you'd see a guy sitting in front of you going, just nodding no, wow, no. And then you come back from intermission, that guy is gone.

[33:59] Ted Lange: Wow. See, our struggle is not over.

[34:02] Bruce Gotlieb: No, the struggle is not over. And that's why someone asked me, well, why isn't this about Jeff Davis? It's not. It's about the women. It's four women, about women, and three different female personalities. They're not, you know, they're not all the same.

[34:21] Ted Lange: Yeah.

[34:22] Ted Lange: You know, so I wrote this play, Four Queens, No Trump, about four black women. And at the end of the thing, we did a Q&A and the audience said, how did you, how could you hear the voice of these women, these four black women? I said, I love women. I don't have anything against them.

[34:46] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[34:47] Ted Lange: And when they tell me something, I don't resent it. If they tell me their truth, I don't resent it. You know, I try to understand it. And then I put it in the mouth of one of the characters, so that when you're sitting in the audience, you go, damn right.

[35:04] Bruce Gotlieb: But of course, right?

[35:07] Ted Lange: Damn right. That's right, girlfriend. Tell it, girlfriend. Go on, girl. You know, put your hands on your hips and shake your head, huh?

[35:18] Ted Lange: Playwrights only wrote from their own perspective. We'd have very boring plays with no conflict.

[35:23] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, or we'd have propaganda.

[35:26] Ted Lange: Right, exactly. Right.

[35:29] Ted Lange: Wait a minute, you know, men are always right and men don't do this. And then you don't see the reality of that.

[35:36] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[35:37] Ted Lange: You know, like when you see a cop movie, the cop is the good guy most of the time.

[35:43] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[35:44] Ted Lange: You know, you don't see him shooting a black person 16 times. You don't see that in the play. You know?

[35:51] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[35:52] Ted Lange: Or you see the cop being the hero, you know, so that consequently, when someone says Black Lives Matter, they don't think about the victim. They think about the poor cop. That's what's going on now.

[36:08] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[36:09] Ted Lange: You know, they think about the poor cop.

[36:11] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[36:12] Ted Lange: You know, they're doing these terrible things. They're saying, well, we're going to ban these books because it doesn't make us look good. You know, it doesn't make the American white male look good.

[36:24] Ted Lange: Now, first of all, it's not about every American white male. That's the first thing.

[36:29] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. Correct.

[36:30] Ted Lange: Second thing is, what are those guys that are in charge doing?

[36:35] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[36:36] Ted Lange: They're still doing terrible things.

[36:38] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. But now they just want to cover it up.

[36:40] Ted Lange: Yeah, yeah. You think when you ban the book, they're going to say, well, that was slavery or that was 1955, you know?

[36:48] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[36:49] Ted Lange: Oh, that was 1960s civil rights. No, you guys are doing it right now to immigrants.

[36:55] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. And we see it every day.

[36:58] Ted Lange: Yeah. So you think your kid isn't watching that?

[37:01] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[37:02] Ted Lange: And you're going to get mad and not let them read Huckleberry Finn.

[37:06] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. What's that going to do anyway?

[37:09] Ted Lange: Yeah, yeah. Come on.

[37:11] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[37:12] Ted Lange: You're talking about one of the great American writers of our time who wrote this thing, and it was a commentary on his time.

[37:21] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[37:22] Ted Lange: You know, so he uses the N-word. You want to change it to slave? No, you don't get to do that because that's not what you did then.

[37:32] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[37:34] Ted Lange: You used the N-word, and that's what my play does. I have a scene early on where the heroine calls this guy everything but a child of God.

[37:47] Ted Lange: And they're all terms from 1800s, 1865, 1860. They're all terms that were used about Black people.

[37:57] Ted Lange: And I put that in the first 10 minutes of the play.

[38:00] Ted Lange: Wow.

[38:01] Ted Lange: If you can't handle that, get up now and go. But there are other things that I resurrected, like Black slaves used to say, gwine.

[38:13] Ted Lange: I'm gwine to go get a pitcher of milk. I'm gwine. I put that in. Hot tamari no.

[38:20] Ted Lange: That's an exuberant reflection of a good situation where a slave would say, hot tamari no.

[38:30] Ted Lange: So, you know, I'm trying to put you in the frame of mind of that time period. And it shouldn't be erased. It should be examined. It should be looked at.

[38:45] Ted Lange: You know what I mean? Just because Mark Twain wrote Huckleberry Finn, you don't let the kid read the book and then not talk about it.

[38:53] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[39:01] Ted Lange: The whole thing is education. You want to talk about it. Well, why do you think Twain did this? Why did he call him that?

[39:09] Ted Lange: You know, why did the Huckleberry Finn or Jim that? You know, what was that? That was prevalent at the time.

[39:15] Ted Lange: Let's not excuse it. Let's look at it and let's examine it and let's move on.

[39:20] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. If we don't know that it ever happened.

[39:22] Ted Lange: Right. We can't evolve.

[39:29] Ted Lange: You have to understand where we came from. What molded all of the things that are happening now come from what you learned in the past.

[39:33] Ted Lange: Exactly. And that is my point with Lady Patriot. You'll have to come. Hopefully you will come see it and you'll learn a point of view of the South that is not.

[39:42] Ted Lange: And general was Jewish. Oh, wow. That's shocking. Yeah. People don't know that. And then he had a third act. He told Jefferson Davis, this is how we get out. And his name was Judah P. Benjamin. He was a Jew and he was the right hand man of Jefferson Davis. People don't know that. Wow. And what? Talk about going on. He got out of America, went to England and had a third act as a barrister in London. Huh. Oh, my. And wrote laws for the English. Come on. That's good stuff. Wow. You know, I could have put it in the play, but it doesn't time, you know, the time frame. But that's the stuff you discover, you know, when you're a footnote historian. Oh, my gosh. But you could write a whole play about all these little things.

So, yes. Yes. Good. Because well, yeah, I think so, because Verena Davis didn't like the fact that he was the attorney general and tells Jeff Davis that, you know, and then Judah focuses on her. Jeff says, you got to you got to you got to smooth things over with my wife because we got to be able to win this war. And he does. And if you ever take a tour of and I did this, I was probably the only black guy. Oh, I was the only black guy on the tour. I did. I toured the Confederate White House. Oh, wow. And I after I had done all of this research, so I was kind of a pain in the butt to the docent who was taking us around in this room here, that room there. And I think about this and what about that?

And she was getting frustrated with me. But, you know, Judah Benjamin became he told Verena his plans for Jeff. And after they win the war, what they were going to do and that sort of thing, that she changed her opinion about Jewish people. Really? Huh? Yeah. Yeah. She trusted him. Very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So all of this is in the play. So I figured out a way to give you the information and yet be entertaining. Well, that's the most I want you to. Yes. Yes. And that's also how people, you know, absorb and retain. If it's a heavy subject, if you can find a little humor, you can find ways to navigate into their brain. It'll sit there and it'll and they'll retain it. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And so that's that's kind of why it's quite a popular play around the country, because I did it in Richmond, Virginia.

I did it at Fisk University and I've done readings of it, you know, in February at different places. You know, there's what I call the Chitlin Circuit Theater, which is black theaters around the country. You know, a caramel. Yeah. Yeah. It's the Chitlin Circuit, because then people say, well, Ted, what are you doing? I said, well, you remember how James Brown, before he became famous, he was doing Chitlin Circuit in nightclubs and he was honing his skills. Right. Oh, yeah. I said, well, I'm honing my skills on the theater Chitlin Circuit. Well, but we're very excited that you're back in New York. That's great. We get to see you. Hopefully. Yes. So everybody will have a chance to come to Theater Row September 6th through the 20th.

And how do we get tickets? How do people get tickets? Well, they can go online, Theater Row. They can get tickets. And let's say the title one more time, Lady Patriot. Lady Patriot is exactly right. It sounds like something that we should all know about. But we'll have fun learning. So that's the best experience, I think. Yeah. And it is entertaining. I got some first class, wonderful New York actors and they're solid, talented people. And I'm so happy that they agreed to be in my play. And I think you're going to be entertained. I think you're going to have a wonderful time and you're going to find things. There were things that were hidden that I exposed and I try to expose them so that you get an idea of what that time was like, you know, because I saw a film on John Brown and most of the time when they do stuff on John Brown, they talk about his sons.

You know, he lost his son. There were five black guys with John Brown. And I don't know if you know this, but Harriet Tubman was supposed to be at Harper's Ferry. No, no. Frederick Douglass was supposed to be at Harper's Ferry and Frederick Douglass's bodyguard. They go to me. There was a secret meeting between Frederick Douglass and John Brown and John Brown tried to enlist him and Douglass could see that it was a trap. And he told John Brown that he said, that's a that's a perfect steel trap. You won't be able to get out. He's like, no, no, I've been doing this and I know how to do that. Come on, Frederick, I need you. And Frederick, no, I'm I'm not doing it. He turns his bodyguard to go and the bodyguard says, I think I'm going to go with the old man, meaning he was going to go with John Brown because he liked what he heard.

Wow. I think I'm going to go with the old man. And so he went with him to Harper's Ferry. Shields Green is his name. Langston Hughes's uncle, you know, Langston Hughes, the yeah, sure. Yeah. His uncle was at Harper's Ferry. His name was John. Wow. He was one of the guys. So they caught two guys and they hung them with John Brown. Two guys, two black guys. I'm talking about the black guys. Yeah. Two black guys were killed the first day of the that they were at the ferry. One guy got away. It was a black guy named Osborne P. Anderson. And so I wrote a play called The Journals of Osborne P. Anderson. And he he got away, served in the Union Army during the war, came back on John Brown's birthday to the farm in New York and visited the family.

They saw this black guy standing at a white picket fence and he was kind of looking at the family and they were like 50 yards away from the fence or whatever. They said, well, who's that? Who's that black guy over there? Go, go. And she said that Mrs. Brown said one of the boys go see who that is. They go. This is Osborne. It's Osborne. And they bring him in and there's everybody celebrating John Brown's birthday. And they said, well, how'd you get away? And Osborne tells them how he got away. And they say, well, you should write that. You should write a book or a pamphlet on how you got away. And he said, well, I don't know. There's nothing to write it. He wrote it. And the South said, this guy's lying.

He was never there. Wow. Wow. I mean, what can you do? What can you do? Yeah. He had all the knacks. He knew everybody. He told the situation. He told how he got away. Yeah, he was. He was running with another guy. Him and a white guy were trying to get away. And the white guy had bad feet. I think he had blisters or something. And the white guy says, you go on without me because they're looking for a black man and a white man together. He says, you go on without me and get away. And so Osborne said, OK. And he gets away. They capture the guy with the bad feet, with the blisters on his feet. And he's one of the guys that got hung at Chris Ferry, along with John Brown. And so I find these, there's so much fascinating history that we had.

It's amazing all this stuff that we just don't know. Yes. And we don't know it. And the only way you can find this is to look at the footnotes. That's right. We appreciate you dissecting the footnotes for us.

[52:01] Ted Lange: Thank you. Thank you. You know what's a good idea that I haven't got to that I think could be examined is Lewis and Clark. And they had a black guy named York. Do you ever heard of this? No. Yeah, they had a black guy named York. It's a fascinating story. Nobody's done it. So I'm putting it out there for someone, even if it isn't me, if I can't get to it, maybe someone in your listening audience will examine it. Because York is fascinating. I mean, the Indians gave York, because they hadn't seen the black man. The Indians gave him their women. He got them out of different scrapes when they got it. Sacagawea and York are the two people that are largely responsible for them getting there and getting back.

So they come back. And while they were on the expedition, Lewis and Clark said, everybody gets a vote because this is so dangerous. Their lives are in jeopardy. So they come back from this, Lewis and Clark. And I forget whoever's slave, whether it was Lewis or Clark's slave, Lewis calls the other guy and says, I don't know what's wrong with York. And the guy says, what do you mean? He doesn't want to do anything anymore. Well, you treated him like a man. And now you come back to civilization. You're going to start treating him like a servant again. And he wasn't having it. It's fascinating. That is. You know, and the guy couldn't do it. Yeah, the guy couldn't. He doesn't want to do it. He's giving me gruff and all that.

But he bailed them out of different bad situations, you know. So American history is the best. We got the best stories ever. We got the best stories. And the guy that knows that is Taylor Sheridan, you know, Yellowstone, 1883, 1920. He's quoted. That's another historian guy. I watch those shows because I just love how he handles history, you know, with a fictional family. I mean, Jesus, this guy is amazing. But we have great stories. And some people don't want that story told. They want to always be the good guys. You can't always be the good guy. No, you know, absolutely not. Well, Ted, we're keeping you way too long. Thank you so much for joining us. We're so thrilled to have you and even more thrilled to come see Lady Patriot in just a few weeks. So we will be there. Yeah. We hope our audience will be there with us.

[52:18] Eila Mell: Yeah. If you're in the New York area, head over to Theatre Row, grab your tickets from their box office, from their online website, whatever is easiest for you to come and join us. The address is 410 42nd Street, near Ninth Avenue. So right across from Laurie Beachman Theatre, you can buy a drink. Come say hi. I'm going to be there the entire run. So please come say hi. And Fred and Jill will be there.

[52:48] Eila Mell: All right. Well, thank you, Ted. And we will see everyone next time on Behind the Awards. Bye-bye.