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[0:00] Peter Gallagher: Hi, this is Peter Gallagher, and you're listening to Behind the Awards.

[0:13] Eila Mell: Hello and welcome to Behind the Awards. I'm Eila. As always, I'm here with my Tony-loving co-host, Bruce.

[0:23] Bruce Gotlieb: That's right. It is our season of joy. It's our season. It was very hard, but we refrained from a lot of discussions yesterday because we wanted our conversation to be on air and be, you know, kind of real-time experience for everybody.

[0:45] Eila Mell: I know. Well, let us also introduce our awards expert, Matt Stachan. Hi, Matt.

[0:52] Matt Stachan: Good morning. How are you?

[0:53] Eila Mell: Good. All right. Now the embargo is off and we can all talk.

[0:56] Bruce Gotlieb: All right. That's right. So what are we thinking? Tony nominees came out, surprises, snubs.

[1:04] Matt Stachan: All of them. We did actually hear also from one of our followers. She was upset about Jessica Vosk being left off, and that came from Laura over on our Instagram. She was not happy.

[1:17] Eila Mell: All right. Well, you know, I agree with Laura that that would have been a nice nomination and it wouldn't have been undeserved. Jessica Vosk, you know, Beaches is what it is, but Jessica Vosk is doing some really good work there.

[1:30] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I was surprised, but I can't say I was shocked by that one.

[1:36] Eila Mell: I know, but I don't know if you guys saw it. Jessica is such a class act. She made a video talking about how, you know, how she would have loved to have gotten the nomination and it was her first time being eligible, but how thrilled she was for everyone else who got nominations and she, you know, she made posts for all of the people. I mean, she's the best.

[1:58] Matt Stachan: Yeah. I mean, listen, you don't want sour grapes and a lot goes into this. A lot of things that most of the people that get nominated probably have no understanding of the politics or mathematics that people go into this to select their nominees. But, you know, just being in the conversation is huge for any of these people.

[2:20] Eila Mell: Exactly. I would, you know, I, you have to remember that you're so lucky to be in this position and, you know, and she did.

[2:27] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, so any who else were you surprised or snubbed?

[2:32] Matt Stachan: All right. Well, so first I've got a whole list. So hold on.

[2:34] Eila Mell: Yeah, really. I was surprised that there were four nominees and for Best Musical. So that was because of there were only six eligible shows. So there were only could be four nominees, but I thought there were going to be three.

[2:51] Matt Stachan: There must have been a tie.

[2:52] Bruce Gotlieb: No, six is the six is where if it's five eligible shows, it's three nominees. Once it's six, it comes up to four.

[2:59] Eila Mell: Oh, okay. Well, good thing we have our expert on. So and then I think that Titanique got that fourth spot and I'm glad that it did. It's such a fun show.

[3:10] Bruce Gotlieb: So much fun. All right, but let's talk about Best Actress in a Play.

[3:17] Matt Stachan: Yeah, no, Io Devery. She was really polarizing and I'm sure once we get to that category down the road, we'll go even more in-depth, but she was on my list of, you know, I don't want to say guarantees, but I really thought for sure she was going to be in even before I saw the show and when I did see the show, I thought she was outstanding.

[3:39] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, I mean, it's just a complete snub for Proof on the whole. They got zero nominations and that was a real surprise to me.

[3:46] Matt Stachan: But then I was talking to a friend yesterday who said, well, it was not good. So I don't know. I haven't seen Proof, to be perfectly honest.

[3:54] Eila Mell: I think it was very, you either liked it or you didn't. One of those kind of polarizing type of performances.

[4:02] Matt Stachan: Yeah, I think she was considered a sure thing until those reviews came out. And I think that's when, and that plus the fact that Actress in a Play was, in my mind, the most competitive category going in anyway.

[4:16] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, but did you anticipate Kelly O'Hara getting that spot?

[4:21] Matt Stachan: I'd heard rumors both of them were going to get in, but I honestly didn't really believe it till they announced all the names. I thought for sure Rose Byrne would get in. And then, yes, I heard people saying, well, if one gets in, they both have to get in.

[4:34] Eila Mell: Right. So, but, you know, but I was still was a bit surprised, something that I thought was a really nice surprise that Will Harrison got nominated for Best Actor in a Play.

[4:45] Matt Stachan: I know you're happy about that, Matt.

[4:47] Matt Stachan: I loved Punch. I'm so happy.

[4:48] Bruce Gotlieb: So did I. I'm glad it wasn't completely forgotten. I did think it should have gotten a set nomination, but there you go.

[4:56] Matt Stachan: But I'm glad that he got the nomination and a little surprised, but not, again, since the nominations came out, not as surprised that Adrienne Brody did not.

[5:06] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. I'm glad that just because someone's a big Hollywood name that it doesn't guarantee a nomination and, you know, nothing against Adrienne Brody, but the work should stand for itself.

[5:17] Eila Mell: Right. I agree. And they've been leaning towards that in a couple of years for the last couple of years. If you remember last year, Steve Carell was not nominated for Uncle Vanya. It was William Jackson Harper who got the nomination.

[5:29] Matt Stachan: Yeah. So they are kind of, you know, I've watched interviews. One specific one I remember is when, I don't even know how many years ago it was, Daphne Ruben Vega was the nominator and I saw an interview with her where she was talking about the process of how she picked them and she was being very serious about how none of that mattered. It was about the work and about making sure the Tonys represented the best work and not just the biggest stars. Otherwise, it becomes like the Golden Globe Awards, you know, let's get the stars in a room and have a party.

[5:56] Bruce Gotlieb: No, that's totally right. But, you know, Bruce and I, you know, we often talk about how if you are a big name, though, you have more opportunity to get in front of the nominators because you get to be on talk shows and stuff. So I'm glad that they didn't forget Will Harrison, who is fantastic.

[6:14] Eila Mell: I don't know if this is on your list, Isla, but one of my surprises and I would even venture into the snub area was Lea Michele being left off of lead actress in a musical. I thought that when I saw it, I was really blown away. I mean, her vocals are unparalleled and I thought she did a really really great job with the piece and I was surprised that a couple of the other acting people that got in like Bryce Pinkham was a pleasant surprise.

[6:44] Matt Stachan: It was a real shot. I really thought that Lea I thought she would have been there.

[6:49] Eila Mell: Um, you know again, I think it's that was next on my list actually. So yes, I did have that. I think Stephanie Hsu got that spot. I think she's great in Rocky Horror, but I think Lea Michele could have been a good nominee there too, you know, I don't really have an opinion on which of the two I think deserved it more.

[7:11] Matt Stachan: I don't know. I think Florence is a little bit of a thankless part. Sometimes so I don't know but yes, it was a surprise Matt.

[7:20] Matt Stachan: I many I was surprised. I mean, I was surprised but I wasn't shocked. She wasn't on the list that I would pick. She wasn't in my top 5 Lea or Stephanie Lea.

[7:35] Matt Stachan: Stephanie. I honestly even after seeing the show, I still think it was a featured role and I think the one who really got put out of that category is Jessica Vosk.

[7:44] Eila Mell: Yeah, but there was a lot of love for chess chess wound up overperforming in a lot of ways and underperforming because it didn't get in Aaron Tveit didn't get in although he really wasn't expected to write and it didn't get Revival which that last spot for Revival everything I saw everything I read was between chess and Rocky Horror for that third spot.

[8:06] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I I knew it wouldn't get it just because Rocky Horror has been gaining steam.

[8:11] Matt Stachan: Yeah, but I think it should have you know, I I'm not a fan of this production of Rocky Horror as much as I wanted to be I would agree with that statement. I think that even with the revised book and it not being as strong as I think people had hoped with chess.

[8:27] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I still think it was a better production than the production that Rocky is for sure. And honestly, if I had to pick one to go back to I would go back to Rocky Horror first.

[8:36] Eila Mell: Okay. Well, I might go back to it just to see if it's tighter because I saw it in the fifth preview.

[8:43] Bruce Gotlieb: So okay. I spent very early.

[8:45] Matt Stachan: That's true. So hopefully it's gotten better since then because it I you know, there was a lot to work out.

[8:51] Eila Mell: Yeah, I do have one surprise for me. It's a happy surprise because actually it was through F especially after seeing the show. I was thrilled Rachel Dratch got in.

[9:00] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay. I was surprised at that.

[9:02] Matt Stachan: I was surprised by it also, but it was a very happy surprise. I know when we talked about who we would nominate. I hadn't seen the show yet having seen it. I was really impressed by how deceptively hard her part is because really what she has to do especially in this production is control that audience and all of the call-outs that they've made their decisions of when they're appropriate when they're not and it's all falls on her to keep the show going and to keep the momentum going and to make sure the audience that she doesn't lose the audience by them not doing the call-outs.

[9:37] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, I think that's a fair statement. I just think that's a problem that anyone has to control the audience. I think that's where they're missing a lot of the fun in this production.

[9:46] Matt Stachan: Yeah, I think she's incredibly deserving.

[9:49] Eila Mell: Okay, very fair. But that yeah, I agree. That was a surprising nomination and I love Rachel Dratch. I was also really really happy that our guest Hannah Cruz got her nomination in that same category.

[10:01] Matt Stachan: Yeah, and surprised that Shana Taub and Tempest Chastity Moore did not get in. I will say Tempest was on my pre prediction list just based on what I had seen then after seeing the show. I probably would have subbed her out for somebody else.

[10:19] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay, just based on the performance the day that I was there. I do also think that I would have probably subbed out Rachel Dratch as well. I think that that featured category was so stacked that I would have put somebody like Mackenzie Kurtz in I just think going down the list of shows. There were definitely some other folks that I would have slid in there. Unfortunately, I think as amazing as Shana Taub is I think her being out of the show, you know for medical reasons. Unfortunately, I don't think everybody was able to see probably the performance that she did.

[10:55] Matt Stachan: Yeah, I think that hurt her for sure as they went through.

[10:57] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. I also think that Isabelle McCalla would have been a good choice in this category too.

[11:01] Matt Stachan: 100%. You're right. There's so many people that could have so, you know, it's no diss on the people that got in but there's just so many that could have. I was also thrilled to see six featured actor in a play nominees, which means we had a tie in there somewhere as well.

[11:18] Eila Mell: Yes. So that was very exciting. But and I was very surprised that Charlie Thurston didn't get in and also Elliot Levy from Giant who seemed to be like a real frontrunner early on.

[11:30] Matt Stachan: Elliot Levy surprised me a lot. Charlie Thurston not as much.

[11:33] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay, again, just the sheer number of people in that category and that show is all about the women.

[11:39] Matt Stachan: No, I agree. I was thrilled that they got recognized.

[11:42] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. No, for sure. And I wish more of them could have been nominated because any of them, any of that ensemble gave a Tony-winning performance. It could have, it literally, they could have filled the entire category with every single cast member. And I know, I think most, well, at least we would have been fine with that.

[12:02] Eila Mell: Exactly. But so I'm very glad that Ruben Santiago Hudson got a nomination. He's wonderful. And Richard Thomas and amazing that the incredible Brandon J. Durden got in there. That was a real surprise. I didn't know that they were going to remember Waiting for Godot. Matt, did you, I know that you like Michael Patrick Thornton the best.

[12:26] Matt Stachan: I did, I did. I liked his performance a little bit better, but I was very happy that Brandon J. Durden got in.

[12:33] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, and I'm sure he was excellent. Very deserving.

[12:35] Matt Stachan: Yeah. I mean, he's a great actor and it's certainly his time. He's been like a journeyman actor for a long time. So this is great for him.

[12:43] Eila Mell: I thought that best featured actress in a play was also very surprising. No Cynthia Nixon, no Cara Young. That's a first for Cara, who is one of the best actresses out there. But I was really thrilled that Mary Louise Burke got in. I think she's doing great work in The Ballisters.

[13:04] Bruce Gotlieb: She was great in The Ballisters.

[13:05] Matt Stachan: Yeah, and Aya Cash also for Giant got in and I hear I haven't seen Giant yet, but I'm seeing it very soon and I hear that she's just incredible in this show.

[13:15] Eila Mell: Yeah, it's going to be an interesting conversation as we deep dive into some of these categories for sure because there's a lot of, you know, nuance. There's a lot of, you know, certain things are asked differently from different people. And, you know, how do you weigh that against what one person is doing versus another? So it's going to be really fun to, you know, dig into all that.

[13:36] Matt Stachan: I'm celebrating so much that Leighton Williams got a nomination for Titanic. He's just incredible.

[13:41] Bruce Gotlieb: Hot off the heels of his Olivier.

[13:46] Matt Stachan: Exactly. And wow, what a performance. No Jim Parsons or Constantine Rizzoli. I'm a little bit less surprised about Jim personally.

[13:56] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay. Than I am about Constantine, but I wasn't so shocked that either of them didn't get it.

[14:01] Matt Stachan: Okay. I thought that if they were going to, if they were going, my opinion, they were going to feed, if they were going to call out somebody in a featured spot in that show, it would have either been Leighton Williams or Frankie Grande, my opinion, because they're just a little bit more of the, they're just a little bit more flashy. And when you're looking at a featured role, in my opinion, you're looking for someone to come in, you know, light the stage on fire and kind of run away.

[14:27] Bruce Gotlieb: So, okay, fair enough. I did think that Jim Parsons was hilarious in that role. But you know, I think the right person got the nomination this time around. I mean, Constantine Rizzoli did get two nominations because he wrote the book and he's one of the producers.

[14:41] Matt Stashin: I know so good for him. He's fine. He's more than fine plus he gets, you know, now he gets these royalties. So that's the real award. Okay, revival of a play No Marjorie Prime. I felt like I think that timing just hurt that one. Yeah, I think that it was a great play. I loved it. It was when I saw at the time I had seen that it was probably my favorite play of the season and then subsequently I saw the play.

[15:12] Matt Stashin: Things that didn't make me forget about it, but it just elevated it and it happened to be fresher, you know, I in my mind time wise. I'm very glad that every brilliant thing got in because I love that and a little surprised that Fallen Angels did and that's not a criticism of the show. I just thought that Marjorie Prime had a lot of steam going into award season. Yeah, director of a play and Kaufman did not get a nomination. I thought that was a little surprising. But again, you know, it's the whole Marjorie Prime actor, but very glad that our guest Kenny Leon got a nomination for the balusters. Yeah, I think a lot. It's funny when you look at, you know, when the shows open in a season and I think, you know, the timing is everything.

[15:55] Eila Mell: Yeah, you know the balusters came in and opened it like just the right time not to take anything away from the work that's going on stage. But I think, you know, that coupled with when it came out. It was just, you know, and how good it is. Yes. Yes, exactly.

[16:11] Bruce Gotlieb: Agreed and score surprising that two straight plays got nominations for score. So this let me know that they were just not going to give anything. So I wasn't that surprised about Jessica once I saw the score nomination.

[16:59] Matt Stashin: But I think in those categories. I think it wouldn't have been out of place. But once I saw it didn't get into score. I knew it wasn't getting anything. I knew they wouldn't get a costume nomination not because they the period costumes were gorgeous, but they were a sort of ghost designed by William Ivey long and I think people didn't like that. So, and then my final surprise and I'm sad about it is that the balusters did not get the set design nomination. I think that's gorgeous gorgeous that it was I mean Derek did a beautiful job with it. Yes, I was ready to move right in. I know.

[17:36] Eila Mell: So, you know, that was a little disappointing, you know, but that's anyone else have anything.

[17:44] Matt Stashin: I do have one more I was a little bit of a sad surprise that the Jellicle ball only got the one acting nomination for Andre De Shields. There were at least besides even temp tempers chastity more that a lot of people were predicting, but even for featured actress I think Emma Sophia a skimball shanks and Nora shell is Buster for Jones easily could have gotten in. And I know there was a lot of buzz around junior LaBeija and Sydney James Harcourt getting in for featured actor with Andre De Shields, you know, I think that the fact that there are so many choices hurt everyone except Andre who is in a category by himself.

[18:22] Eila Mell: He's a legend. So, so I heard I was talking to a friend yesterday who works on cats and he said, you know, the first day when people come and introduce themselves Andre De Shields said, my name is Andre De Shields I play old Deuteronomy, and my pronouns are King legend and Broadway deity.

[18:46] Bruce Gotlieb: How great is that.

[18:48] Eila Mell: Right. I wouldn't expect nothing.

[18:51] Bruce Gotlieb: Amazing. Amazing. And they're all true.

[18:54] Eila Mell: That's right. That's so funny. I know. I love that. All right, well, is it time Bruce should we. It's time. All right, let's jump into our predictions.

[19:06] Matt Stashin: Hi, this is Beth Level and behind the awards. We'll be right back. Don't go anywhere. Don't do it.

[19:14] Eila Mell: We are going to dive in so episode one, we are going to be covering, and not necessarily in this order, choreography orchestrations featured actor and play featured actor in a musical and sound design of a play.

[19:33] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay, so why don't we, why don't we start with sound design. Let's do it. So sound design of a play we have Justin Ellington for Joe Turner's coming gone.

[19:44] Matt Stashin: All right, well, I'm going to jump in, I'm going to say that I have to eliminate Justin Ellington, which I hate to do, because, you know, his work is always fantastic but I thought that it was kind of hard to hear some of the dialogue in Joe Turner in the beginning of the show.

[20:13] Eila Mell: So I did struggle a bit. I mean, when you're talking sound. Yeah, there are many components but you know what people are saying is probably one of the top. Right. That's pretty important and especially when you're trying to absorb all the exposition.

[20:28] Matt Stashin: So I'm going to go with Oedipus because I think that the video component was really well done. You know, you could hear every word, it seemed, I just thought that overall, it was just a big job and it was handled really expertly.

[20:46] Eila Mell: Okay, so that's your will win or one that is my, I'm going with both for that one.

[20:54] Matt Stashin: Oh, okay. I predicted. Who's next?

[21:02] Bruce Gotlieb: I'll go next. I agree with you my want to win is definitely Oedipus that was far and away the best thing I saw on Broadway this year was that production I want that sound design to win, especially because for all the reasons you said, I'm going to predict it's going to go to death of a salesman though.

[21:19] Matt Stashin: Yeah, I think that that could happen.

[21:21] Bruce Gotlieb: That is one of the rare times I just as a blanket rule. I can't imagine that Tony's are going to want to let anybody up on stage to say thank you Scott Rudin.

[21:32] Matt Stashin: Well, it could happen.

[21:35] Bruce Gotlieb: But I do think in this category it'll be death of a salesman, you know, I think that it could very well win because the lack of a traditional house set for that show makes the other categories do more work and sound is definitely, definitely a huge component and makes it very haunting the sound Bruce.

[21:58] Bruce Gotlieb: I am going with Josh Schmidt for bug is my will and want. I think that there was a lot, you know, with the ambient noise with, you know, certain things that had to put the audience on edge and feel a little bit of unease.

[22:15] Matt Stashin: There were other factors that had to go into that too. But I think the sound in order to create that environment, just from a sound perspective, really took some special nuance.

[22:26] Eila Mell: Yeah, I'm so glad that you picked that because I love bug and that that was a great aspect of the show and I'm so glad I got that nomination.

[22:35] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, for sure. All right. So how about orchestrations. Let's see how we feel about that.

[22:44] Matt Stashin: Doug Besterman and Mike Morris for Schmigadoon. We have Kyler Englund, Adrian Gonzalez, Ethan Popp, Gabriel Mann for The Lost Boys, Trevor Holden, Doug Shant, Andrew Lloyd Webber and David Wilson for Cats at the Jellicle Ball, Lux Pyramid for Two Strangers Carry a Cake Across New York, and Brian Yousefer for Chess.

[23:10] Bruce Gotlieb: I'll go first. My will and my want are the same thing for this one. It's Jellicle Ball. They absolutely updated, redid that entire score to fit this new setting. They revamped the whole thing and still kept the core of the music. And the music was always the best part of the show.

[23:30] Eila Mell: So the fact that they were able to keep the core of it to keep it as good as it is and still update it to this new setting I thought was remarkable.

[23:37] Matt Stashin: So I agree with you on both. I want it to win and I think it will win for the same reason because yeah, it's a complete redo of a classic even though many people don't like the original. I do have to say that I think the dance was the best part of the show, but that's okay.

[23:54] Bruce Gotlieb: But yes, I think that's the right way to go. And boy, what a show. I just saw it last night. I loved it. Bruce?

[24:03] Bruce Gotlieb: It's very boring. I did pick the same.

[24:05] Matt Stashin: Now do we give any points to Two Strangers for being something very original in this category? Do you think that that will help it?

[24:13] Bruce Gotlieb: I think it's going to help it other places. I don't know that it helps it with orchestration.

[24:17] Matt Stashin: I think in this case going up against Cats and Chess that was also music that was already known and even Schmigadoon that people would know from TV. I think in that case this actually hurts the Lost Boys or Two Strangers because there's nothing to compare it against. Like the orchestrations, the changes are not as obvious.

[24:36] Bruce Gotlieb: To be clear, and you obviously know this, this isn't a category about changes necessarily. We know that. We understand that.

[24:49] Matt Stashin: But what I meant was the work they did was more obvious.

[24:53] Bruce Gotlieb: Absolutely. I get that. But also, you're right. Reimagining a classic is a big job.

[25:02] Matt Stashin: It is. And I think also one of the things to me that I was going back and forth in my selection was Schmigadoon because the task is creating an environment within the songs, within the orchestrations that sound like something you know, but isn't something you know.

[25:21] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. Well, that's a specific skill to you. You're right.

[25:24] Matt Stashin: Yeah. So that's why I was back and forth between Cats and Schmigadoon for that reason because you have to sound like the song that you're referencing or paralleling without being that song.

[25:36] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. And then if you get it wrong, then people don't get the references easily.

[25:41] Matt Stashin: Correct.

[25:42] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. No, that's true. That's a really good point. I hadn't considered that. All right. Well, we'll see.

[25:47] Eila Mell: All right. Well, we're chugging right along here.

[25:49] Bruce Gotlieb: I know.

[25:50] Eila Mell: Let's talk about some dance because you just brought that up, Isla.

[25:54] Bruce Gotlieb: One of my favorite categories.

[25:56] Eila Mell: Best choreography. We have Christopher Gattelli for Schmigadoon, Christopher Cree Grant and Lauren Yolongo Grant for The Lost Boys, Arturo Lyons and Omari Wiles for Cats the Jellicle Ball, Eleanor Scott for Ragtime, Anya Taj for Richard O'Brien's The Rocky Horror Show.

[26:18] Matt Stashin: Okay. Not to be a sourpuss about Rocky Horror, but I don't know why this got nominated. I don't think that the dance was substantial enough for this. Where is chess in this category? I think they should switch those two.

[26:31] Bruce Gotlieb: No, I agree. I agree. I thought there was far more dance or movement in general in chess than there was in Rocky Horror.

[26:40] Eila Mell: And it served the story so much better.

[26:42] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. No, I would agree.

[26:44] Matt Stashin: No one's jumping into a pair of pants in Rocky Horror.

[26:47] Eila Mell: That's for sure.

[26:49] Bruce Gotlieb: But for some reason, except for the COVID year and Jagged Little Pill, Lauren Lotaro has never been nominated.

[26:56] Eila Mell: I know. And she has deserved to be nominated. I don't know what they have against her. Too talented, maybe.

[27:02] Bruce Gotlieb: Maybe. They're jealous.

[27:05] Eila Mell: I loved what she did with Heart of Rock and Roll. I know that show didn't get nominations, but I thought she should have for choreography.

[27:15] Matt Stashin: I didn't see it, unfortunately.

[27:17] Eila Mell: No, I did see it. I agree.

[27:20] Bruce Gotlieb: But I'm thrilled that Christopher Cattelli got into this category because that is some beautiful dance in that show.

[27:29] Eila Mell: Just absolutely gorgeous and expanded so much from the TV version of Schmigadoon.

[27:35] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, based on what he had to, you know, obviously different people bring different things to the table. But what, you know, the Danny Bailey role is with Max Clayton in that part as a dancer versus Aaron Tveit brings to the table on the TV show is, you know, is a completely different aesthetic.

[27:53] Eila Mell: Right. And then even from when you guys saw it at the Kennedy Center, it's more dance.

[27:58] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. Yeah. It was Ryan Vasquez at the Kennedy Center.

[28:01] Eila Mell: Yeah. And also the ensemble, their dance is gorgeous. And it adds, you have to have it, you know, for this kind of golden age satire.

[28:10] Bruce Gotlieb: So, you know, the show won't work without that high level of dance.

[28:15] Eila Mell: However, I would give a Tony for every dance number to the choreographers of Cats if I could, because that is just they're doing ballet.

[28:26] Bruce Gotlieb: They're doing classical Broadway dance and they're doing, you know, ballroom and they're doing it's just a hybrid of so many different styles of dance.

[28:35] Eila Mell: I think that it's just unparalleled the work that's going into that show dance wise.

[28:40] Bruce Gotlieb: So is that your that is that your selection?

[28:43] Eila Mell: That's my selection. And I think it's going to be rewarded.

[28:46] Bruce Gotlieb: That's your want. I want them to win twelve Tonys for choreography.

[28:51] Eila Mell: OK. All right. So yes, I can't be any clearer, Bruce.

[28:56] Bruce Gotlieb: I love the choreographer. I mean, the choreography for that show.

[29:01] Eila Mell: OK, as good as a lot of the other nominees are, there's only two categories this year that are absolutely just lock them up. It's done. This is one of them. Cats is winning and it should.

[29:15] Bruce Gotlieb: And what's maybe we're not covering it this episode, but what's the other lock category?

[29:20] Eila Mell: Director of a musical.

[29:22] Eila Mell: OK, well, we'll have that later, but you know, I had to know. I couldn't wait. Of course.

[29:30] Bruce Gotlieb: So Matt, what do you think? Is that your want? Also?

[29:35] Matt Stashin: Absolutely. Cats deserves it. The whole show, the way they've set up the whole show is around that dance. So if the dance didn't work, the whole show falls apart and it succeeds brilliantly. It does. And how thrilling is it just when just even in the very beginning, when they fought, you know, when they that moment when the lights come up fully and there it's like they've arrived at the ballroom and they they take away the velvet rope and they're all at that famous, you know, Jellicle Cats. It's just thrilling. Oh, my gosh. I also think that it will win. I will say that it's not my want, though. My want is Schmigadoon. I get it. Loved it so much. It brought so much joy and so much. Not that cats didn't. It just was in a different way that I just want it.

It's yeah. I mean, listen, if there were no cats, I would be saying the same thing about Schmigadoon because I love that choreography. That was, you know, for me, the best part of a great show. I love the show. And just the choreography was so gorgeous. You know, in some of these categories, like I said, there's just, you know, the finest of lines between what we think is going to be or what we want to be or what will be, because either the ask is so different or it's just you're really splitting hairs in terms of what what's going to you know, what's going to sway people.

[31:01] Eila Mell: Yeah, I agree. You know, it's almost not fair in a lot of categories because because, you know, a category like ragtime is just not set up to have as much movement or dance as some of these other shows. Right. So, you know, it's great that Eleanor is nominated for choreographer. Yeah. And it's you and there's some beautiful movement that's happening there. It's just compared, you know, comparatively.

[31:23] Bruce Gotlieb: Exactly. And it serves the story really well. But how can it win next to a show that's a dance show? You know, I don't know. Maybe it can, but maybe it would be very surprising, I think.

[31:34] Matt Stashin: I agree. Are you ready for the next category?

[31:40] Eila Mell: I think so. All right. Featured actor in a play. All right. Who do we have here? Our six nominees are Christopher Abbott for Death of a Salesman, Danny Burstein for Marjorie Prime, Brandon J. Durden for Waiting for Godot, Alden Ehrenreich for Becky Shaw, Ruben Santiago-Hudson for Joe Turner's Come and Gone, and Richard Thomas for The Ballisters.

[32:08] Matt Stashin: I mean, Matt, where do we start? So many great choices here.

[32:14] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, yeah. I'll start. Okay. I think that Christopher Abbott is going to win. I want Alden to win. He was just, in my opinion, so exceptional. He did so much with that character. You hated him. You thought he was cringy. You also felt for him. There were so many layers to it. In tradition, I was like, give this man a nomination. I just was all in with his performance. But I think the buzz with Death of a Salesman and all the love that it's getting for the performances that are going on is going to hand Christopher the trophy. But I really want Alden to get it.

[32:56] Matt Stashin: Now, do you think this is one of those cases of the lead being snuck into a supporting category?

[33:02] Bruce Gotlieb: A little bit.

[33:03] Matt Stashin: Yeah. Because that always helps that out.

[33:06] Bruce Gotlieb: For sure.

[33:06] Matt Stashin: Yeah.

[33:07] Bruce Gotlieb: The meatier the role, the more substantial their time is and time with everybody. You know, I think that the part, you know, when you think of, we'll use Becky Shaw, everyone assumed that Becky Shaw and much like with Marjorie Prime, everyone assumed that those were the name of the play. So therefore those characters were going to be the lead of those shows and neither one was.

[33:30] Matt Stashin: Well, especially with Madeline Brewer playing Becky Shaw.

[33:33] Bruce Gotlieb: Correct.

[33:34] Matt Stashin: Yeah, you're right. You know, it's interesting the way that it parses out because really the lead of that show probably was Alden.

[33:44] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. And I just have to say, I still love him so much in Weapons. My favorite movie from last year. Matt, you want to jump in?

[33:53] Matt Stashin: My should and my will are the same person. It's Alden Ehrenreich. I thought he was absolutely fantastic in Becky Shaw. I do think he and Lauren Patton were both leads, not featured. But it was close enough that it's very much an ensemble show.

[34:10] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[34:11] Matt Stashin: I mean, this is an actor that has been in movie after movie after movie for like a decade or so by this point. And the movies really had no idea what to do with him, how to show him off to the best of his ability. So now he's coming to the theater. He's absolutely knocking it out of the park. His performance is brilliant. So I think he should win. And I actually do think he's going to win.

[34:34] Bruce Gotlieb: OK, he could. That would be I don't know if it would be a surprise, but it would be sort of like the little engine that could.

[34:41] Matt Stashin: Yeah.

[34:42] Bruce Gotlieb: So I struggled between two actors and it was Christopher Abbott and Danny Burstein. I think that they're both giving such heartbreaking performances. Danny, I think, is not going to win because it's almost he's too good for his own good because people expect that level from him again and again and again. And that's why he gets so many nominations. I think it's going to go to Christopher Abbott.

[35:12] Matt Stashin: I agree. And I think I would pick Christopher Abbott. What he does, his role of Biff is sort of cut in half because he shares it now. But I mean, when he's on, he is just devastating. He's so good in this role. And I mean, it's a performance that has stayed with me, you know, for weeks now since I've seen it. And I just I think about it a lot. And he was just so destroyed by his father's choices. And I think that that performance will and should be rewarded.

[35:41] Eila Mell: Okay. All right. So the next is Featured Actor in a Musical. And our nominees are Ali Lewis Borsgi for The Lost Boys, Andre DeShields for Cats the Jellicle Ball, Bryce Pinkham for Chess, Ben Levy-Ross for Ragtime, and Leighton Williams for Titanic. Who would like to start?

[36:10] Matt Stashin: I'll start. I am so torn in this category. As I start this sentence, I'm not sure who I'm going to pick for my want. I loved Ben Levi-Ross in this in Ragtime in this category so much. But then I saw Titanic. And I really love Leighton Williams and what they're doing is so different. It's so it's really hard for me to pick who I think should win. I think I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Leighton Williams will win. I think people are going to cheer on that performance more and more. Oh, it's so hard. I don't know. Can you come back to me for my want?

[36:56] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I mean, sure. I'll go. Okay. I will agree with you. My want is Leighton Williams. I thought he was fantastic. I just thought he brought the house down. And it's the exact opposite situation of what you were talking about with the lead having a better chance. Like, he has this tiny little role, he comes in, he stops the show cold, and just goes on his way. And sometimes that's all you need to do. Come in, show them how good you are, and then let them pick up the pieces afterwards. He just brings down the house every single day. He's even great before he gets to the iceberg.

[37:29] Matt Stashin: Yeah. Oh, 100%. He's my want to win. I want him to win. I do think he has a very good chance to win. I'm not going to predict him. But if he does win, you might hear me yelling from wherever you are watching, because I will be so happy. I think the will win, I think is going to go to Ali Lewis Borski.

[37:47] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay. It's a really hard role. He absolutely nails it. And I do think the Lost Boys is going to have a lot of strength overall going into the awards.

[38:02] Matt Stashin: Interesting. I also struggled. I went back and forth with certain things. I don't know what to say. I know, this category is so hard. This category is hard. I actually do. I do think that Leighton Williams will win. I do. I am going in a completely different direction. Although I don't think that if something is going to be rewarded, I don't think it is going to be this person. But I am going to go with my want actually is Bryce Pinkham.

[38:37] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay. I think that the way that the role is constructed, and what he's doing with the part is so different than and kind of has stuck with me since seeing it. Not that Leighton hasn't, because it's just so much fun. I just feel like a minuscule amount of over the edge being that I would like to see Bryce get rewarded for this narrator type role, which also you could consider it a lead because he doesn't leave the stage, and he's the one that's kind of masterminding the whole story. And he brings the humor to the show.

[39:16] Matt Stashin: He does, and I like some humor.

[39:20] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. All right. I guess it's back to me, and I still don't know. Usually, I'm very disciplined with myself, and I just pick somebody. I think that what Ben Levi Ross is doing is much more subtle, obviously, than what Leighton Williams is doing. Of course. And I don't think that that should be forgotten. And I've been thinking about him for months now, since I've seen Ragtime. For me, he and Shaina Taub were the standouts, which is odd because there's so many great performances in that show. Oh, but Leighton Williams was so, so great. Oh, I don't know. Leighton Williams, I guess, if I have to.

[40:00] Matt Stashin: If you have to.

[40:04] Bruce Gotlieb: All right. Now, I will say, you know, nothing against Andre De Shields and all the adjectives that he brings to the stage. If they had nominated someone else from that show in this category, I can think of a couple of people that then this conversation would have went differently for me.

[40:23] Matt Stashin: Well, who is that? You can't throw that out there and not follow up.

[40:28] Bruce Gotlieb: For me, I loved Dudney Joseph Jr. So captivating and so outstanding, in my opinion.

[40:35] Matt Stashin: Yeah.

[40:36] Bruce Gotlieb: In Cats.

[40:37] Matt Stashin: It was fantastic.

[40:38] Bruce Gotlieb: Everything, like I held on to every word. I loved his performance. And, you know, of course, the popular thought there would be Sidney James Harcourt, also as Rum Tum Tugger.

[40:49] Matt Stashin: Yeah, he was terrific. I think it would be a very close race if he were in.

[40:53] Bruce Gotlieb: He was. I will say, if Junior LaBeija had gotten it, I think it would be over. I think he would be the clear winner. I mean, he's sort of the heart of the show, even more than Andre De Shields. And he's the real deal. So how do you not respect that so much?

[41:08] Matt Stashin: He was actually part of the Paris is Burning documentary that was a production.

[41:12] Bruce Gotlieb: Of course, a huge part of it.

[41:13] Matt Stashin: Yeah. I have to say that I loved Mr. Mistoffelees, too.

[41:19] Bruce Gotlieb: Robert Silk Mason, I think his name is.

[41:20] Matt Stashin: Yes. Yes. Thank you for that. I forgot. But yes.

[41:23] Bruce Gotlieb: But you're right. There's so many that they just cancel each other out because it's just one excellent performance after another.

[41:31] Matt Stashin: So, boy, well, this was tough.

[41:34] Bruce Gotlieb: Wow.

[41:35] Matt Stashin: It's only going to get harder from here.

[41:37] Eila Mell: Right. Exactly. But I love that. I mean, this is a really interesting year, don't you think? There's some real competition.

[41:45] Bruce Gotlieb: There is. There is some real competition. It was, you know, so many different things as far as like, you know, especially in the play categories. I felt like every year, like one like plays or musicals, one kind of overshines another in a way. And there's just such heavy competition as far as plays are concerned.

[42:05] Matt Stashin: Yes. You know, I feel like the real contest is in the best revival. I really think it's a ragtime versus cats kind of scenario. Which way are we going to go? Traditional or, you know, a new kind of wave.

[42:20] Eila Mell: So. So, Matt, what do you think about that?

[42:23] Matt Stashin: I 100 percent agree with you. I think no matter which show got that third spot, it was going to be the third spot. It's ragtime versus cats. I don't think Rocky Horror's got a chance. No matter how cats and ragtime split this vote. I think Rocky Horror's still going to be, you know.

[42:39] Bruce Gotlieb: And you're right. Even if it were Titanic or any other show.

[42:43] Matt Stashin: Yes, if it were Chess, Chess would still be running third.

[42:46] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. Yeah. These two shows are just too good.

[42:48] Matt Stashin: Oh, right. Titanic wouldn't be in this category. But yeah, these two shows are just. Yeah, they're the shows of the season, I feel like.

[42:57] Eila Mell: It might be a little early for this conversation, but I know Titanic only got four nominations. I can see a path to it winning all four of those nominations.

[43:06] Bruce Gotlieb: You think it could win Best Musical?

[43:07] Matt Stashin: I think it could. I think it is so split and none of the nominees have that overwhelming support. It absolutely. I think all four of them have a chance.

[43:16] Bruce Gotlieb: OK, well, that's interesting. I mean, we all knew Marla Mindell would get a nomination. I think she could win. I really do. And I think it could win Best Book.

[43:24] Matt Stashin: Yeah, why not?

[43:25] Bruce Gotlieb: And what's the fourth nomination?

[43:26] Matt Stashin: Leighton Williams.

[43:28] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, I think that's the best shot there.

[43:32] Eila Mell: All right, well.

[43:33] Bruce Gotlieb: All right.

[43:34] Eila Mell: Well, some of these conversations will be to be continued in a future episode. And as always, we would love to hear your thoughts on this.

[43:44] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes.

[43:45] Eila Mell: Who do you want? Who do you think will?

[43:48] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. DM us and let us know and we'll bring you into the conversation on air.

[43:54] Eila Mell: And we will see you next time on Behind the Awards.

[43:57] Bruce Gotlieb: Bye-bye.

[44:01] Eila Mell: Bye-bye.