This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Eila Mell: Hello and welcome to Behind the Awards. I'm Eila. I'm here with Bruce.

[0:19] Bruce Gotlieb: And today we have our awards expert, Matt Stachan, because it is our Tony Special number four.

[0:27] Eila Mell: Tony Special number four. Can you believe it? I feel like we've been talking so much about gearing up and, you know, the Tonys on the precipice of nominations and announcements.

[0:36] Bruce Gotlieb: It's like this build-up and then it's like over in a flash.

[0:39] Eila Mell: I know. They're around the corner now.

[0:42] Bruce Gotlieb: They are.

[0:44] Eila Mell: So we thought this morning before we dove into our categories, we would talk about maybe some missed opportunities that the Tony nominators left off their lists.

[0:57] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. If there was room for everyone, you know, the snubs.

[1:03] Eila Mell: So, you know, I made my list. I didn't think about who I would replace with these people, but I just think, you know.

[1:11] Bruce Gotlieb: People who could have gotten a nomination very easily.

[1:15] Eila Mell: OK, so why don't you kick us off with a little bit?

[1:19] Bruce Gotlieb: All right. Well, should we do one, you know, one each and go around?

[1:23] Eila Mell: All right. Why not?

[1:24] Bruce Gotlieb: All right. Well, I'm going to start things off with the set for Punch. I think that that really deserved a nomination. It was so great and really helped tell the story.

[1:34] Eila Mell: Yeah, it was. I felt it was useful, too. Right.

[1:37] Bruce Gotlieb: Like there was so much that the I mean, obviously, the director has a say in, you know, how everything's being created.

[1:46] Eila Mell: But it really I felt like it gave them such a more expansive playing ground.

[1:51] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, for sure.

[1:53] Eila Mell: And I also think that had the show come out later in the season, it might very well have gotten a nomination.

[1:59] Bruce Gotlieb: I think it was just a victim of being too early.

[2:02] Eila Mell: And that's always I guess the conversation behind the scenes is, you know, when do you come out? You know, you're waiting for a theater to be available. You want the timing to be right. There's so many factors involved. And if a theater is available as like the second show of the season and you want to wait, you might have just blown your chance for that season.

[2:21] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. And you really can't plan around a Tony Award.

[2:24] Eila Mell: Right. Correct.

[2:27] Bruce Gotlieb: That may never come anyway. So. Right. Right.

[2:31] Eila Mell: All right, Bruce, how about you?

[2:34] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, one of my picks and snub, I guess, might be a little bit of a strong word, but I was just really, really surprised that Lea Michele was not included.

[2:47] Eila Mell: I know it's a tough race, but what she's doing vocally is, I thought, just really, really, really special.

[2:55] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I think a lot of people expected her to get the nomination.

[2:59] Eila Mell: Yeah. And like I said, I don't know. Well, I might have a couple of ideas I might replace. But, you know, some of these races are a razor thin and it's like to sub one out.

[3:12] Bruce Gotlieb: You know, then that person becomes the next kick of this game, right?

[3:16] Eila Mell: Right. Exactly. Matt.

[3:19] Matt Stachan: My first one, I really can't believe she didn't get in there, except for the fact that the show was so long ago. It's Cynthia Nixon from Marjorie Prime.

[3:28] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[3:29] Matt Stachan: So it's the best performance I've seen her give in years in any medium, movie, television, anything.

[3:36] Eila Mell: Yeah, I think that the five actresses that are in this category were really a surprise. Not all of them, but a couple of them sort of got in unexpectedly because I think Cynthia Nixon was a lot of people's favorite.

[3:51] Matt Stachan: Yeah. You know, I think it was like 12 people for a five person category. So somebody had to get left out. It just it means she could have lost by like three votes. We don't know.

[4:02] Eila Mell: Right. So I guess picking up from their revival of the play Marjorie Prime, I thought that would get in. And that was a surprise to me.

[4:08] Matt Stachan: And when it was out, it had such buzz, such, you know, everybody was talking about it. And much like I guess the seasons, always once another show opens, that hype gets replaced or could get replaced.

[4:25] Bruce Gotlieb: And those really special shows continue the conversation, even if they've closed.

[4:31] Eila Mell: Right. And it's not like it wasn't remembered. It was remembered, you know, Danny and June Squibb got their nominations.

[4:38] Matt Stachan: So I just you know, they just went in a different direction. But that, you know, could easily have gotten a nomination.

[4:45] Eila Mell: Absolutely. Another thing that I was surprised that was snubbed was the set for Liberation. I thought that it was just the attention to detail was down to like such nuance that it was really, really special.

[5:03] Matt Stachan: And I thought for sure we were going to see that come nomination time.

[5:09] Eila Mell: And I was surprised we didn't. And I mean, you know, it told the story for sure.

[5:14] Bruce Gotlieb: There's not more you can do with that set.

[5:16] Matt Stachan: Yeah, no, not at all. I'm going to go for a performer again. Junior LaBeija for Cats.

[5:23] Bruce Gotlieb: He was the heart of that show.

[5:26] Matt Stachan: He was the soul of that show as much as I think Andre DeShield leads the show as much as he is like the center of the show. Junior LaBeija's performance as Gus the Theater Cat is the heart and the soul of the show.

[5:40] Bruce Gotlieb: It is the reason this incarnation of Cats exists is for him and for his story.

[5:46] Matt Stachan: And I think he's brilliant. And I think he very easily could have been nominated.

[5:51] Eila Mell: You know, and also knowing that he is the real thing.

[5:54] Bruce Gotlieb: Exactly.

[5:55] Matt Stachan: Yeah, it just brings it to a whole other level. And his whole song is just beautiful with the projections.

[6:02] Eila Mell: And yeah, it's a really great moment in that show.

[6:06] Bruce Gotlieb: All right. Well, I am going to go with Adrian Brody for Fear of 13.

[6:13] Matt Stachan: Say what you will about this show. I think his performance is excellent.

[6:18] Bruce Gotlieb: I agree.

[6:19] Matt Stachan: I think he was great.

[6:21] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I don't know what I expected, but I didn't. I got something I didn't expect, you know, which is always surprising and special when you sit down to see a show.

[6:33] Eila Mell: Because whether you know the piece or you know the actor from other mediums, you know, your brain automatically is kind of building something out for you.

[6:44] Matt Stachan: Yeah.

[6:45] Bruce Gotlieb: I'm trying to remember. Did he leave the stage at all during the show? I know Tessa Thompson did at points briefly.

[6:51] Matt Stachan: Yeah, I think he had. Oh, he was on stage even when it was her scenes.

[6:55] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh yeah.

[6:57] Matt Stachan: There was just lighting.

[6:58] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[6:59] Matt Stachan: Because she was talking to him.

[7:00] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[7:01] Matt Stachan: Yeah. Or she was talking to the audience and there was just like a lighting change.

[7:05] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[7:06] Matt Stachan: OK. Yeah. I don't think he left the stage the entire show.

[7:09] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. It was a big ask of him.

[7:11] Matt Stachan: Yeah. You know, he definitely delivered. For me, another, although this show was not honored very much at all this Tony season and there was some division amongst people who've seen it is proof.

[7:24] Bruce Gotlieb: But for me specifically, the lighting design. I thought what Amanda Zev was doing with the lighting was really, really special.

[7:33] Matt Stachan: The way that the house itself became translucent at certain points of the show to see some action going on inside the way that they use that almost like paint stroke like they did in Lempicka, where the light looks like it's being painted.

[7:52] Bruce Gotlieb: And it was time to the scene change. So when the time the paint ran through the entire perimeter of the house, the next scene began.

[8:01] Matt Stachan: And it wasn't until it happened a few times where I was like, oh, it's actually timed out. But it was really, really special and really unique. And I was surprised it didn't get some more tech love.

[8:14] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[8:15] Matt Stachan: Or love at all. I thought proof could have come in in a bunch of the categories, to be perfectly honest.

[8:20] Eila Mell: I know. I think that many people expected Iowa Debrie to get a nomination and she didn't.

[8:27] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[8:28] Matt Stachan: But just for it to get zero nominations was a real surprise.

[8:31] Eila Mell: Yeah. Agreed.

[8:33] Matt Stachan: All right, Matt.

[8:34] Bruce Gotlieb: All right. I'm going to go tech at a show that mostly got forgotten. But I think in this aspect, I think the sound of Waiting for Godot was phenomenal.

[8:45] Matt Stachan: Jamie Lloyd shows can be very divisive. But one thing you can't disagree on is technically they are impeccable.

[8:53] Bruce Gotlieb: And everything tech about Godot was outstanding.

[8:57] Matt Stachan: The set, the lights, the sound. And I think the sound design of that show specifically could have and probably should have gotten in.

[9:04] Eila Mell: Do you think it was just too early?

[9:06] Matt Stachan: I think it might have just been forgotten.

[9:08] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[9:09] Matt Stachan: I do think, you know, the fact that supporting actor in a play has the six nominations. I think Brandon J. Dearden was one of the tie that got that last slot.

[9:18] Eila Mell: But I think if the show would come out later in the season, I think it would have been represented much more.

[9:22] Bruce Gotlieb: OK.

[9:23] Matt Stachan: All right. Well, I am going with Lauren Latoro for chess.

[9:29] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[9:30] Matt Stachan: I thought that was great choreography. I have to say that there are some shows this season that I am scratching my head as to why they got choreography nominations.

[9:43] Bruce Gotlieb: And this one was so clearly.

[9:45] Eila Mell: Oh, great.

[9:46] Matt Stachan: Yeah.

[9:47] Bruce Gotlieb: Names.

[9:48] Matt Stachan: Well, I don't know. You know, there's a couple. It's not even just one.

[9:55] Bruce Gotlieb: I'll say Rocky Horror. I didn't love the choreography for that.

[9:59] Matt Stachan: And even Lost Boys didn't have a whole lot of choreography, to be honest.

[10:03] Bruce Gotlieb: I'm assuming Lost Boys, the flight choreography was part of it.

[10:06] Matt Stachan: So it had a little bit more.

[10:08] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, flight, you said the aerial choreography.

[10:11] Matt Stachan: Yeah.

[10:12] Bruce Gotlieb: OK. Did they do more than just go up and down, though?

[10:15] Matt Stachan: I don't know.

[10:16] Bruce Gotlieb: At some points they did.

[10:17] Matt Stachan: Yeah.

[10:18] Bruce Gotlieb: OK. I mean, it looked beautiful when they were flying.

[10:25] Matt Stachan: But OK, I'll leave it that. But anyway, I think that, yeah, Lauren Latoro's choreography. I don't know why she's not in there.

[10:31] Eila Mell: I feel very small.

[10:35] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes.

[10:36] Matt Stachan: Yeah. I mean, we even said it in talking about the show. It opens up and that ensemble is just blasted out of a cannon. And they're, you know, going all out. And the movement is so precise and, you know, is needed to tell the story. So I would agree with that.

[10:54] Eila Mell: And to get Chita Rivera nominations for some of the performers. So, I mean, it's true. I don't know. Seems like a miss.

[11:02] Bruce Gotlieb: I think Lauren Latoro in general. I think we talked about this in another episode. Lauren Latoro has never been nominated.

[11:10] Matt Stachan: Yeah.

[11:11] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. I don't know why.

[11:13] Matt Stachan: Yeah.

[11:14] Bruce Gotlieb: She's consistently pretty great.

[11:15] Eila Mell: Absolutely.

[11:16] Bruce Gotlieb: So.

[11:17] Matt Stachan: Yeah. All right, Bruce.

[11:19] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, for me, I know we've talked about this and it's kind of a category of it is, I guess, bunched together with another. But I am going to say I am giving an overall snub for a wig category because I think that the wigs, especially like Liberation's wigs.

[11:40] Matt Stachan: So, period.

[11:41] Bruce Gotlieb: So, like, help tell the character arc of the people like each one was completely different. And the fact that each actress had two mic packs in those wigs and you couldn't even tell.

[11:56] Matt Stachan: Yeah.

[11:57] Bruce Gotlieb: Is deserving of an award in and of itself.

[11:59] Matt Stachan: So, is it fair to say that it's a whole snub of an entire category that there should be?

[12:04] Bruce Gotlieb: That's what I'm calling it.

[12:06] Matt Stachan: Yes.

[12:07] Bruce Gotlieb: I'm on this.

[12:08] Matt Stachan: I'm on this train.

[12:09] Bruce Gotlieb: Let's do it.

[12:10] Matt Stachan: Let's do it for the wig designers.

[12:12] Bruce Gotlieb: I know because it's really it's, you know, it's kind of costumes. But it's, you know, it's a different skill for sure.

[12:19] Matt Stachan: Yeah.

[12:20] Bruce Gotlieb: And I know, like, for Jaja's African hair braiding, the wig designers got a special Tony. It wasn't included in costume.

[12:26] Matt Stachan: Yeah.

[12:27] Bruce Gotlieb: So, no more special Tony's category. Let's just have a Tony for it.

[12:32] Matt Stachan: Agreed.

[12:33] Bruce Gotlieb: And production. I mean, listen, they're doing the work.

[12:36] Matt Stachan: Right.

[12:37] Bruce Gotlieb: I mean, some of these stories are really hinge upon what it looks like.

[12:42] Matt Stachan: Yeah.

[12:43] Bruce Gotlieb: You know, it's not just coming out with your hair blown out the way whatever it is.

[12:49] Matt Stachan: Right.

[12:50] Bruce Gotlieb: You know, it's really specific to the piece.

[12:53] Matt Stachan: And almost, not everyone, but almost everyone in a Broadway show is wearing a wig.

[12:59] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[13:00] Matt Stachan: Right. Even if you don't think they are.

[13:02] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. I mean, Cats, look at the amount of wigs and work that went into that show.

[13:06] Matt Stachan: Oh, yeah.

[13:07] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[13:08] Matt Stachan: Yeah.

[13:09] Bruce Gotlieb: All right, Matt.

[13:10] Matt Stachan: All right. I'm going for a big one for best play. Punch.

[13:12] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes.

[13:13] Matt Stachan: Punch was such a powerful piece of theater. I can't fathom it didn't get in.

[13:20] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. I think, you know, I think we're lucky we got the Will Harrison nomination.

[13:25] Matt Stachan: Yeah.

[13:26] Bruce Gotlieb: Otherwise, it would have been completely snubbed. And I think that would have been a real shame because not only does that set, it's not on my list, but the set and Victoria Clark's performance and Lucy Taylor's performance and the direction, like so much about this play was so good.

[13:44] Matt Stachan: And I think it was just a victim to how early in the season it was. But even I know I can think of one play nominee that I will not mention that I enjoyed. I didn't dislike it, but I liked it far less than I enjoyed Punch.

[13:59] Bruce Gotlieb: And it was also from very early in the season.

[14:02] Bruce Gotlieb: And I think they could have swapped those out very easily. And you don't want to say, "Oh, it's Little Bear Ridge Road." Okay. I liked it. I liked it. It was not a bad play. Yeah, I think I like Punch better. Little Bear Ridge Road was one of the best-reviewed shows of the season, though. It's just very interesting. And yet that's all it got is Best Play. It is not nominated anywhere else for any.

[14:27] Matt Stashin: Yeah, okay. Yeah, we're more on that list. I actually have two more, but I'll go with the set for the balusters. I think that that set just had so much to it. And it really was very pivotal to the show because it represented the whole neighborhood and what the neighborhood looked like and felt like was a pivotal part of that play.

[14:46] Bruce Gotlieb: Was that Derek McLean?

[14:48] Matt Stashin: It was. I did hear somewhere, I don't remember where I heard it, that it was actually based on David Lindsay-Abaire's home.

[14:55] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes, not the sort of decoration of the house.

[14:57] Matt Stashin: Yes, exactly. I don't know why that didn't get in. I'm really surprised. I thought it would. I actually kind of assumed it was going to. I was very surprised it didn't.

[15:10] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. And you know, it's not a knock against any of the other nominated shows, but I think that it did more than some of the other shows.

[15:17] Matt Stashin: My next one is Dundee Joseph Jr.

[15:20] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, yeah, he's great.

[15:22] Matt Stashin: I thought that his performance in Cats: The Jellicle Ball was—I couldn't take my eyes off him. Every time he got on that mic, I was all in and captivated. I just thought his performance was outstanding. Great singer, and he's on that mic for so much of the show.

[15:43] Bruce Gotlieb: He really is leading that show.

[15:45] Matt Stashin: Really? And at the end when they're doing the curtain call, it's—oh my God.

[15:50] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, go ahead.

[15:51] Matt Stashin: And it's time. Like, it's not like he's just spouting like it now. Riven Mick, it's, you know, I'm sure getting that under in pace during rehearsal was a lot.

[16:06] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, no, you're right. That didn't even occur to me. And you're so right. Because if he doesn't, you know, the show is not going to work because he really is the anchor.

[16:17] Matt Stashin: Right. And I feel like his energy—if he starts flat, it's gonna start flat. Like, yeah, got to guide to get himself psyched up every single show to come out there and deliver, and he does.

[16:34] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I think so. It's a little bit of a thankless role, too, because, you know, it's not as flashy as the dancing and stuff like that. But it's super important.

[16:46] Matt Stashin: Yeah, it's almost his job to make sure everybody else looks good.

[16:50] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Good one, Bruce.

[16:56] Matt Stashin: Yeah, thank you. All right, Matt.

[16:58] Bruce Gotlieb: I'm gonna stay with Cats. I'm also gonna lump two together if that's okay.

[17:01] Matt Stashin: Okay.

[17:02] Bruce Gotlieb: For Featured Actress in a Musical, Emma Sophia and Nora Schell as Buster for Jones. I both of them, either one could have easily gotten in. I mean, the entire cast of Cats: The Jellicle Ball, I know, just spectacular. But those two really stood out to me. If I had to pick one over the other, I think I'd go Nora Schell first.

[17:23] Matt Stashin: Okay, two of them are really close together. I think there's just so many great performances in that show.

[17:28] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, almost like they cancel each other out. You just can't really pick.

[17:32] Matt Stashin: And I think that wound up actually hurting the number of nominations it got. Like they all split the vote from each other. So yeah, other people got in.

[17:36] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I think so. Can I throw in one extra?

[17:43] Matt Stashin: Sure.

[17:44] Bruce Gotlieb: All right. I would have loved to see Ben Allers get a nomination for Death of a Salesman. I think he's wonderful in this show.

[17:50] Matt Stashin: Okay. You know, I mean, Christopher Abbott has, you know, I see why Christopher Abbott got the nomination. And I completely support that because he's incredible in the show. But Ben Allers is really great, too. So that's all. Just honorable mention there.

[18:10] Matt Stashin: One honorable mention also, then.

[18:12] Bruce Gotlieb: Go ahead.

[18:13] Matt Stashin: John Bernthal in Dog Day Afternoon. I know, again, say what you will about the show. He's great. He was incredible.

[18:19] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[18:20] Matt Stashin: Yeah, I agree.

[18:28] Beth Level: Hi, this is Beth Level, and Behind the Awards will be right back. Don't go anywhere. Don't do it.

[18:37] Bruce Gotlieb: All right. Well, we have to get to—

[18:39] Matt Stashin: We do, we do.

[18:40] Bruce Gotlieb: Let's dive on in. All right, our categories that we'll be discussing today in no particular order. Or it's a heavy one. Director of a Musical, Costume Design of a Musical, Lead Actor and Lead Actress of a Play, Lighting Design of a Play, and Revival of a Musical.

[19:00] Matt Stashin: Okay. So Bruce, as always, you're in charge.

[19:09] Bruce Gotlieb: Take a deep breath and let's go with Lighting Design of a Play.

[19:18] Matt Stashin: Okay. And our nominees are Isabella Byrd for Dog Day Afternoon, Natasha Chivers for Oedipus, Stacey Derosier for Joe Turner's Coming Gone, Heather Gilbert for Bug, and Heather Gilbert for Fear of 13, and Jack Knowles for Death of a Salesman.

[19:35] Bruce Gotlieb: All right, well, I'm going to jump in if you don't mind. I, for me, this is easy. I think that it's got to be Jack Knowles for Death of a Salesman. The lack of set really relied on the lighting to help tell the story. And boy did it. You know, this production is very much—you get a real sense of that it's in Willie's mind a lot of it. And that, you know, memory is a very strong component. And the lighting is really key in that. And also, the ghosts seem very ghostly in this show. And you know, again, it's the lighting is doing so much of this work. So that's my pick.

[20:31] Matt Stashin: Your want and your will?

[20:33] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes. Okay. Yeah. I did really like the lighting in Fear of 13, but I think just Death of a Salesman is doing way more.

[20:38] Matt Stashin: Okay. My will and my want is Bug. I thought it needed—like I did, like with the sound, the lighting played a really strong role in making sure that you knew the type of spot you're in. The other type of—you're not in the Ritz Carlton, you know, you're not in some flashy place. And as the show went on for it to continue to mold and shape the environment that we were in, to give you that ease, that uneasy feeling to really put you in that world, I thought was really important. I thought really effective.

[21:18] Bruce Gotlieb: And that's both for you, right?

[21:20] Matt Stashin: Both for me. Yes.

[21:21] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I love Bug.

[21:24] Matt Stashin: My want is actually also Bug. I, for all the reasons Bruce said, I think the lighting for that show was spectacular. Horror thrillers are really hard to do on stage. They work so rarely, and Bug really did. And the lighting was a big part of that. I think it could win. I think the will win—I'm going with Natasha Chivers for Oedipus, especially the last half hour of that show. The lighting, again, the lighting amped up the tension so much. And even, you know, if you know the play, you know what's coming. And it's still—the audience still gasped every step of the way.

[22:05] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, yeah. Oh, good choices.

[22:07] Matt Stashin: Well, we're gonna tiptoe over to Revival of a Musical. We have three nominees: Cats: The Jellicle Ball, Ragtime, and Richard O'Brien's The Rocky Horror Show. To me, this seems like it might be an even stretch across the board, but I'll start and say, I think it will be and I want it to be Cats. Although I do think that Ragtime is such a beloved piece, and this production is beautiful. So I could see a world where that does get honored. But I do think that in the sense of a revival, Cats is in the truest of it of the word.

[22:53] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I think I have to agree with you. And I—a lot of the stuff I'm reading says it's really close between Cats and Ragtime. I don't think it's as close as a lot of that is saying. I think Cats is the clear choice. It's what I want to win. I think it's what will win because it does reimagine and reinvent the show. Ragtime does a minimalist version of the show, but it doesn't revive or reinvent the show. Cats completely reinvents the play. And as somebody who, to be perfectly honest, never liked Cats and loved this—that says something.

[23:33] Matt Stashin: Yeah, I agree. With both of you. I think my want and my will is also Cats. Not only did it reimagine the show, but it made it better. So it seems like it should have always been this way. Obviously, it couldn't in the beginning. But yeah, I think it's just a wonderful way to tell the story. And also, I think, you know, as beautiful as Ragtime is, I agree with that. I do—for me anyway—and I don't think I'm alone. It's still in the shadow of the original production, which is so absolutely perfect.

[24:04] Bruce Gotlieb: Agreed.

[24:05] Matt Stashin: Yeah. So, but I didn't think it would be Ragtime for a very long time until Cats. As soon as Cats announced it was coming, I kind of had a feeling it was over. But before then, yeah, I mean, it was Ragtime's to lose.

[24:18] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[24:19] Matt Stashin: All right. Well, that was easier than I thought it would be. I thought we'd have a little more disagreement. Is there any chance that Rocky Horror is going to take it?

[24:29] Bruce Gotlieb: I say no way. Not for me.

[24:31] Matt Stashin: Yeah.

[24:32] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I don't think so. I really think it's just between the two shows.

[24:35] Matt Stashin: Agreed.

[24:36] Bruce Gotlieb: No matter what that third slot was going to be, if it was Chess, if it was Rocky Horror, if it was Mamma Mia, it would have always been between Cats and Ragtime.

[24:44] Matt Stashin: Yeah, agree.

[24:45] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. And I also do think, you know, knock against it, but there are two shows I would have put before Rocky Horror to begin with.

[24:51] Matt Stashin: Well, there are only two shows, so we know what they are.

[24:55] Bruce Gotlieb: No, I'm talking about—and they're not even nominated.

[24:57] Matt Stashin: No, no, we know.

[24:58] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, we get it.

[25:00] Matt Stashin: I agree that it wouldn't have been my choice. I would have put Chess in.

[25:06] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. But this is how it went down.

[25:08] Matt Stashin: That's right.

[25:09] Bruce Gotlieb: I'm actually with these three as the nominees. But it's definitely Cats, Ragtime, and then right—my hand is so far down Rocky Horror. I know they might as well have just nominated the two shows.

[25:21] Matt Stashin: Right.

[25:22] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. Okay. Where are we going next?

[25:27] Matt Stashin: Let's go over to Costume Design of a Musical.

[25:30] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, my God. This is so easy.

[25:34] Matt Stashin: Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. Let's announce some games.

[25:39] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay. I'm getting too excited here. Do you want to go first on this one, Eila?

[25:43] Eila Mell: I don't have to.

[25:44] Bruce Gotlieb: No, no, absolutely. Go for it.

[25:49] Eila Mell: All right, Bruce. Our nominees are Linda Cho for Ragtime, Linda Cho for Schmigadoon, Qween Jean for Cats: The Jellicle Ball, Ryan Park for The Lost Boys, and David Reynoso for Richard O'Brien's The Rocky Horror Show.

[26:07] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay, as much as like, I think it is definitely a clear winner. These are the right five nominees. I think these were the five best costumes.

[26:14] Eila Mell: Okay, just very clear first, but I think this is definitely—this is one category where I think they got it absolutely right.

[26:21] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay, so the costumes in Schmigadoon, gorgeous. They tell the story they do, you know, everything they're supposed to do. Another season could be an easy winner. But come on, what's happening in Cats is just far and away blows everybody out of the water. I'm sorry. All due respect to everybody else. It's just they had the opportunity that the other shows didn't to really let loose, and Qween Jean is fantastic. And she is the absolute right designer for this show. And just forget about the quality. I bet you can't. But let's just say the amount of costumes that she had to design is off the charts. And she killed it with every costume. I mean, there's a fashion show in the show. And it's great fashion. Usually, you don't get that on stage. And oh my gosh, I could see these things going down a runway. And for so many reasons, my want and my will is Cats.

[27:28] Eila Mell: Agreed. I—you're absolutely right. I think in any other year, Ragtime or Schmigadoon both could have been easy winners. Especially Ragtime. I think those costumes are fantastic. But no, Cats is far and away the best choice here.

[27:43] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, I will say that I do think Cats is going to win, but I want Schmigadoon to win.

[27:49] Eila Mell: Okay.

[27:50] Bruce Gotlieb: Torn between the two. They were, you know, by far my top two choices. And I just loved everything that Linda Cho did with Schmigadoon. The colors, the

[28:04] Eila Mell: Welcome back to another Tony deep dive.

[28:34] Bruce Gotlieb: We're excited to continue our discussion about the upcoming Tony Awards.

[29:04] Eila Mell: Today, we're diving into some of the major categories and sharing our predictions.

[29:34] Bruce Gotlieb: Let's start with the Director of a Musical category.

[30:04] Eila Mell: For me, that gives them the edge, and I think they will win too.

[30:34] Bruce Gotlieb: I agree. And honestly, I don't even think it's close. This is one of the couple that I would bet money on. It's going to be Cats.

[31:04] Eila Mell: It will win. Should win. Because with everything you said, they reimagined, they reinvented the show, and a whole host of people, myself included, who didn't like the show now love it because of their work.

[31:34] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I would easily go see it again.

[32:04] Eila Mell: Yeah, I think far and away it is the best directed show of the year.

[32:30] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I do have Cats down as well.

[32:34] Eila Mell: For both.

[32:41] Bruce Gotlieb: For both. I went back and forth with a couple of other choices. But, you know, each of these shows, like you said, Eila, are all, you know, the one thing if we're nitpicking on things, the one thing, in my opinion, you can't dispute the fact that it's directed beautifully.

[33:05] Eila Mell: You know, each of these shows are directed so, so well that any other season or if Cats wasn't here, I think it becomes a really like you'd have to be splitting hairs to decide who it would be.

[33:30] Bruce Gotlieb: Because, you know, what Christopher Gattelli is doing, it's just everybody's literally at the top of their game. And it makes it exciting because you want to know, well, what are you going to do next?

[34:13] Eila Mell: Right. What's going to be the next project? So on the one hand, it might be an easy decision, but it makes it really exciting for what's to come for Broadway going forward, I think.

[34:37] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, you know, on our we have an episode with Jaylen coming up and he gives a little scoop about something very exciting that he's doing next. So we'll just tease that.

[34:48] Eila Mell: You know, I have to say, though, let's not discount Michael Arden only because of the way that show is so carefully directed.

[34:59] Bruce Gotlieb: It's just, it's so seamless. It goes from scene to scene and location to location and it never misses a beat. And also just the fact that we learned that it was his idea to add that coda at the end.

[35:13] Eila Mell: It's just, you know, and he designed the lights with Jen Trever. So, you know, he could do it all.

[35:19] Bruce Gotlieb: Really? I mean, literally, he's putting everyone else out of work. I think he's going to get a Tony anyway, because I think he will win for the lighting.

[35:28] Eila Mell: OK, I think. Yeah.

[35:30] Bruce Gotlieb: So I just wanted to point that out. But, you know, all the directors are great.

[35:35] Eila Mell: Yeah, I know. You know, that also stood out to me too. But it's just Cats is just a phenomenon, I think.

[35:42] Bruce Gotlieb: Agreed. Any other year, I think Michael Arden would probably be the clear winner.

[35:45] Eila Mell: I think I agree with you.

[35:47] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. All right. Is there one more category, Bruce?

[35:52] Bruce Gotlieb: There's one more and I saved the women for last, lead actress in a play.

[35:58] Eila Mell: OK, so we have Rose Byrne for Fallen Angels, Carrie Coon for Bug, Susanna Flood for Liberation, Lesley Manville for Oedipus, and Kelli O'Hara for Falling Angels.

[36:13] Bruce Gotlieb: All right. Who wants to jump in?

[36:16] Eila Mell: I'll start for me. I don't know. I don't know if she will win. I'm going with my will win for Lesley Manville just because of all that I've heard.

[36:27] Bruce Gotlieb: I did not see the piece, but all that I've heard about it. My want to win is Susanna Flood. I just I can't stop thinking about it every time I see a clip.

[36:38] Eila Mell: I don't care how long the clip is. I will watch what she's doing from the moment she steps out on that stage to the last beat of the show is an award-worthy performance, in my opinion. And I would be so thrilled if she won on the 29th.

[37:00] Matt Stashin: Yeah, Matt, I completely agree with Bruce. My want to win is Susanna Flood. It's close because I did see Oedipus and Lesley Manville is breathtakingly good.

[37:13] Eila Mell: Yes. And I will be so happy when she wins because I think she's going to.

[37:18] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. Well, so I also agree that Lesley Manville is probably going to win. I think, you know, she has certain stature as an actor at this point. And I think, you know, she totally delivers in this role.

[37:31] Matt Stashin: But I agree with you. I want Susanna Flood. I mean, the second she steps on stage, she's so convincing.

[37:41] Eila Mell: I don't know if it's Susanna Flood talking to the audience or the character talking to the audience. She's just, I mean, the woman is literally running naked on the stage. She's fearless. I believe every second of her.

[37:57] Bruce Gotlieb: The moments that she has with her husband, with her mother, they're just so gorgeous. You know, it's just such a great performance.

[38:07] Matt Stashin: And the fact that the ensemble is every bit as good just makes her shine even more. I mean, it's just it's such great work.

[38:18] Eila Mell: So, yeah, I mean, it's funny because when you said that you don't know who she's playing, there were some people that before they realized they actually thought it was best on stage.

[38:27] Bruce Gotlieb: So that's right. Yeah. So, you know, Liberation is just such a great play. I wish it were still running because I would see it many more times.

[38:36] Matt Stashin: Yeah, I would as well.

[38:38] Eila Mell: So, Matt, do you think the fact that Lesley Manville won the Olivier gives her an edge also here?

[38:43] Matt Stashin: I want to say yes, because she definitely was fantastic. John Lithgow won the Olivier also for Giant. So that might actually be both of them up.

[38:50] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I think it doesn't hurt. It's not an even playing field. Liberation obviously wasn't eligible for an Olivier.

[39:00] Eila Mell: Correct. And, you know, the others too. But I do think people respect the Olivier.

[39:05] Matt Stashin: Yeah, they do. One hundred percent. And I think that could lift Lesley Manville up over the others.

[39:12] Bruce Gotlieb: I think definitely Rose Byrne and Kelli O'Hara might cancel each other out. They might steal votes from each other. They're both wonderful and hilarious.

[39:21] Eila Mell: But I think they will. I think you're right. Carrie Coon, like I said a little bit ago about Will Harrison, with Bug left out of Best Revival of a Play. And that hurts her, which really does leave Susanna Flood and Lesley Manville, which are two early in the season closed shows.

[39:37] Matt Stashin: I don't know that it's going to be for voters down to those two. I mean, I hope so, but I don't know. Carrie Coon is really strong.

[39:45] Bruce Gotlieb: So I don't know. Maybe, you know, we're never going to know who came in second.

[39:50] Eila Mell: But if only. Right. That would be interesting.

[39:53] Matt Stashin: I'd love to.

[39:55] Bruce Gotlieb: The other thing that's interesting, too, is because we do talk about, you know, shows that open at the right time or are or closed, you know, and they remembered and really Rose and Kelly are the two that are still performing their shows and currently still performing.

[40:10] Eila Mell: So voters are going to have them in their mind fresh. You know, so could that help one of them and hurt one of these other women that remains to be seen?

[40:22] Matt Stashin: And it's going to be on Broadway HD so people can see it, I think, right before the Tonys.

[40:27] Bruce Gotlieb: So, I mean, these two women are so good in this show. I mean, they're hilarious.

[40:34] Eila Mell: And Kelli O'Hara is unexpectedly, I think, you know, because she has played a lot of very serious roles. She's hilarious in this. She's so good.

[40:42] Matt Stashin: She's as good as Rose Byrne. They're both so great. If either one of them gets it, I think that's good, too. You know, there's no bad choices in this category.

[40:52] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, it's out of our hands, unfortunately. If only we could tell everyone what to do.

[40:59] Eila Mell: If only we could vote. I just want one vote.

[41:02] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, not one vote. I want the ability to vote.

[41:05] Eila Mell: Yes. Right. Because how could you pick just one? Which category?

[41:09] Bruce Gotlieb: I know. It's too much.

[41:12] Eila Mell: All right. So, one special episode coming up, one Tony episode left, and then it's the big night.

[41:20] Bruce Gotlieb: So, all right. Gear up, you guys. Make sure you get your outfit designed for your viewing parties.

[41:27] Eila Mell: I mean, listen, you want Qween Jean designing your Tony outfit.

[41:31] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, absolutely. Not that she has time, but, you know.

[41:34] Eila Mell: She probably doesn't.

[41:35] Bruce Gotlieb: I don't think so. I think she's probably working on her own outfit.

[41:39] Eila Mell: That's not true.

[41:40] Bruce Gotlieb: Which will be spectacular. That's easy to predict.

[41:43] Eila Mell: Absolutely. I'm sure.

[41:45] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, we'll see everybody next time on Behind the Awards.

[41:48] Eila Mell: And don't forget to send in all your thoughts, who you're rooting for, who you think is going to win, who are your snubs. We want to hear it all.

[41:58] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes. Bye, everyone.