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[0:00] Michael Chernus: Hey, this is Michael Chernus, and you're listening to Behind the Awards.

[0:12] Eila Mell: Hello, and welcome to Behind the Awards. I'm Eila. I'm here with Bruce. Hi, Bruce.

[0:18] Bruce Gotlieb: Hello there.

[0:20] Eila Mell: So, Bruce, you know, we had just had Jackson Parker Gill on, and we've gotten such great response. People love him. He's 11, and he's starring as the little boy in Ragtime. Who went to visit him at Ragtime?

[0:30] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, I mean, she did call him out in the video, but, well, not call him out, but singled him out when she was speaking. But Oprah was there this past weekend. And, you know, he met Michelle Obama. Now he's meeting Oprah. I mean, I would love to be in his shoes for a minute.

[0:50] Eila Mell: I know, at 11. Good for him.

[0:53] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, yeah. I mean, he's meeting all the icons.

[0:56] Eila Mell: She gushed about the show. She loved it so much.

[0:59] Bruce Gotlieb: I know.

[1:00] Eila Mell: All over social media, how much she loved it.

[1:02] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. I love that she does that when she goes to a show, because, you know, what she says carries a lot of weight with a lot of people. So.

[1:09] Eila Mell: Yeah. That's great. Maybe it'll bring people who aren't, you know, necessarily going to go to a Broadway show to this show.

[1:16] Bruce Gotlieb: That's very possible. They still have some time to see.

[1:19] Eila Mell: A little bit. When is Ragtime scheduled to close?

[1:21] Bruce Gotlieb: Looks like it's August 15th is their final show.

[1:26] Eila Mell: All right. So people have, you know, a good amount of time to go see the best revival of the musical this year.

[1:33] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, for sure.

[1:35] Eila Mell: So well, speaking of best of so soon, the Emmys are going to announce their nominations. Right. And I mean, as soon as I saw the devil in disguise, I said, well, Michael Turner should definitely get a nomination for playing John Wayne Gacy. He is so chilling. He presents him as, you know, this sort of likable guy, not as likable as he probably, you know, as John Wayne Gacy probably thought he was, but just really fascinating portrayal of this person that, you know, we only know as being like this killer clown, but we get to see a lot of different sides of him in the devil in disguise. So I'm so excited to welcome Michael Turner. People will know him from obviously devil in disguise, but also Severance and Orange is the New Black. And he's definitely a familiar face.

[2:28] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. And we had a great conversation with him. So let's get everyone into that interview. Without further ado.

[2:36] Eila Mell: Well, first, you know that I'm a big fan of devil in disguise. I watched it when it came out. And because I knew we were having Michael Turner on our show, I did something maybe no one should do. I binged it in the past, like.

[2:51] Bruce Gotlieb: Twenty-four hours, I watched all eight of them in a row.

[2:53] Eila Mell: Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

[2:56] Bruce Gotlieb: I know. So let's welcome Michael Turner.

[2:59] Michael Chernus: Thanks for having me.

[3:01] Eila Mell: We're thrilled to have you. Thank you for joining us.

[3:02] Michael Chernus: Thrilled to be here.

[3:04] Eila Mell: So, you know, I'm not in a dark place either. I thought I would be, but I'm not.

[3:08] Michael Chernus: That's good. I'm glad. I'm glad. Yeah, I usually don't recommend binging it, but you seem OK.

[3:17] Eila Mell: You know, women really we respond well to true crime dramas. I think it's because, you know, well, the theory anyway, is that we find it a cautionary tale as to what not to do. And, you know, we use it well of, you know, education for sure. Sure. Yeah. How did that part come to be for you?

[3:36] Michael Chernus: So way back in spring of twenty twenty-four, I got a voice message from my agent saying there is interest in you meeting for this show about John Wayne Gacy for the role of John Wayne Gacy. And she was like, we should talk about how you feel about potentially playing John Wayne Gacy. And my agent very smartly was like, before you make an audition tape or anything else, we should just talk with the showrunner about what the approach is going to be, because, you know, there are a million different ways you can kind of approach these stories. And so our brilliant showrunner and executive producer, Patrick McManus, and I had what was supposed to be like a 30-minute zoom that turned into an hour and a half long conversation.

And I knew right away then that I wanted to do everything I could do to get this role. And the reason was because he said all the things that made me feel, well, first of all, comfortable and second of all, excited and that this could be different from other versions of serial killer shows, namely that we would be trying to focus on the victims as much as possible. We wouldn't be showing any murder on screen and that there would be these sort of short stories in every episode where you'd meet some of John Gacy's victims before they ever crossed paths with him. And so then I went through a series of auditions, a couple of zoom sessions with Patrick, and then we met in person in New York City on the day of that big solar eclipse. I don't know.

[5:16] Michael Chernus: Yeah. And so I got off the subway and everyone was standing on the corner of the street, you know, with the glasses on looking at the sun. And I was on my way to this very different sort of experience. So, yeah. And so then after that audition, very shortly after that, I heard that I was offered the role and began my intensive research at that point. My favorite part about Devil in Disguise is at the very end of each episode where you meet the actual people, the victims and their families too, in some cases.

[5:50] Eila Mell: Yeah. I know it was very important to Patrick that at the end of every episode we show either some pictures or footage of the real people. I find probably the most moving moment of the show is the end of the final episode, especially when we focus on there are still a number of victims who haven't been identified. And the unidentified remains are in different cemeteries throughout the Chicagoland area with the words, we remembered on the gravestone. And so for our premiere in New York, my stylist had we remembered embroidered onto the lapel of my suit jacket. And my great hope is that maybe, you know, through our show or through just like the continued awareness of this case that maybe one or two of those victims are identified soon. Because the Chicago PD is still very actively working on trying to find out the identities of these missing boys and young men. Were you a true crime fan going into this? Is that something you found interesting just in your own time?

[7:01] Michael Chernus: It absolutely was. And I would say the thing that got me hooked initially was the podcast Serial. And when it came out, like many of us, I just I gobbled up every episode as they came out. And then during the sort of the beginning days of the pandemic, my wife and I were just, you know, trapped inside like all of us. And so we started binging every documentary on all the streaming platforms and just trying to, you know, find things. I don't know why during one of the darkest times in my memory, we sought out some of the darkest material to consume. But somehow that was comforting. But I will say that since we made this show, my appetite for true crime has shifted. And I find myself if I'm consuming any crime documentaries at all, it's I'm trying to seek out ones that are done in a little more of a thoughtful way that tries to shed light on the victims.

[8:06] Eila Mell: So, you know, your portrayal of him, we've seen John Wayne Gacy so much. We don't really know him personally. Right. We know things about him. And so you give us a full person. It's not just like you're almost never the clown. There's just like a flash of being the clown. What was your way in to finding him? Because, you know, obviously you are not like him as Michael.

[8:29] Michael Chernus: Yeah, I certainly hope not. But, you know, like any actor, you try to find ways that I mean, I don't want to say that you're similar, but, you know, common points of, you know, basic humanity. And I will say that's where I try to start with him was that he was a human being. And I don't mean that in terms of like my goal was not for the audience to have sympathy or empathy for him, but to kind of take him off of this pop culture mantle that I feel like he's been on. You mentioned the killer clown image, and I feel like that's unfortunately the thing that got tied to him. And I think it made him stop being a human being and kind of turned him into this larger-than-life figure that we could then distance ourselves from.

If he's this clown figure, he's almost like a comic book supervillain. And then we don't have to wrestle with the fact that he was actually just some guy, some unremarkable guy in the Chicago suburbs who had like a somewhat successful small contracting company. And he did these awful unthinkable things. So I tried to start there. I mean, I'm from Cleveland, Ohio, which isn't the same as Chicago, but there's kind of that Midwestern blue-collar, you know, my last name Chernus is Hungarian, and Gacy was Polish. So that sort of Eastern European immigrant kind of sensibility. And yeah, I just did as much research as possible and read all of the books and watched all of the documentaries and listened to all the podcasts and tried to fill myself with information.

And then it eventually reached a point where I had to stop doing that and focus on these scripts. I would say one of my goals was to try to dismantle some of the myths that we've come to know and believe about him in this story and try to find a more human version of it.

[10:33] Eila Mell: What's really interesting is that in the script, you talk about with one of the detectives, how you didn't have a great childhood, you didn't have a great relationship with your father, but then, you know, also the cop didn't either. And so as the audience we see, you know, that's no excuse, because one person went one way and the other person went another way with similar backgrounds.

[10:49] Michael Chernus: That's exactly right. And I thought that was a really brilliant piece of writing. Yeah, we talked about that a lot, because, you know, there's this saying hurt people hurt people. And I think there's a lot of truth to that. But I don't think that is an excuse, especially for crimes this disgusting and violent. Because, you know, as you pointed out, there are unfortunately millions of people who had, you know, an unhappy childhood, or in this case, you know, an alcoholic, abusive father, and they didn't murder 33 boys and bury them under their house. And so it did help me find ways in as an actor. And, you know, I don't know that I ever fully understood him. And I don't know that I could, because my sort of theory is that he didn't understand fully why he was the way he was and why he did the things that he did.

He was driven by compulsion, and psychopathy and this bloodlust. And so, you know, I felt like there was always this sort of final piece that I couldn't reach, you know, or I shouldn't say, I mean, I hope that I conveyed it. I just that I couldn't fully as myself, Michael understand, because I think these psychopaths have a different brain chemistry. But that's where imagination comes in. And, you know, acting, I think that his childhood made him feel like he was always less than and that he was always, as he said, many times, dumb and stupid, and that there was something wrong with him. And so often, his victims were the ones who made him feel threatened, or made him feel judged. The ones who, in his words, would change the price after they had agreed upon and negotiated on price for a sex act, or who would threaten that they were going to out him, or would deny him, you know, a sexual favor.

If he felt backed into a corner, then he would do these horrible things. Because by all accounts, he took maybe hundreds, maybe thousands of men back to his house over the decades. And it's only the 33 that we know of that he killed.

[13:17] Eila Mell: So one of the big questions is, why did he let some people go?

[13:21] Michael Chernus: Yeah, right. What did you find? I know, we've spoken with, you know, stage actors and, you know, when they're playing a character that is maybe a little dark, and they have to go into a certain place, but they also have to have an out. For once, you're leaving the set, you know, you have to be able to shake this and go back home and kind of exist. Michael, did you have, you know, certain methods that you use to kind of back yourself out of the character?

[13:47] Michael Chernus: I did have some, and I had some that were certainly conscious, and then some that were maybe unconscious decisions, but that paid off for me. I will say that I felt like

[13:56] Michael Chernus: My background in the theater really was so helpful in this job. I started in the theater. I did a lot of theater in Ohio when I was in high school and trained at like a children's theater school in Cleveland. And then I went to Juilliard and then spent the bulk of the beginning of my career doing new plays off-Broadway. And I just returned to the stage recently and did Well, I'll Let You Go with a number of our Devil in Disguise cast. Cricket Brown was in both the play and in the Devil in Disguise. And then Quincy Tyler Bernstein, who plays the psychiatrist. And then Quincy had to leave the show early this summer. And Marin Ireland took over for her for like the last couple of weeks, who was Elizabeth Piest in Devil in Disguise.

So we had a weird amount of crossover with that play. But yeah, I felt like having come from the theater, there were a couple things. In my trailer, I kind of had everything set up almost like a theater dressing room. And I had some little crystals and talisman and some good juju to try to ward off some of the bad energy. And then I had all of the names of his victims written down. In some interviews, I've said on a piece of paper, but truth be told, it was like a three-fold poster board, like you would kind of get for like the science fair when you were in junior high, you know, you'd fold it open. And so I had written down all of the names of his victims and the day that they went missing and the age that they were when they were killed.

And I would put it in a drawer in my dressing room table. And when I got to work, I would open it and unfold the trifold thing and put it down on my dressing table and look at it and read the names and just kind of meditate on that for a minute and remember that's why I'm doing this thing. And then at the end of the night, when I got out of costume, I would fold it back up and put it back in that drawer. And that really just helped center me and give me a larger intention for what I was doing. And then there was a lot of vocal stuff that I was doing. I really wanted to focus on Gacy's voice and not only sort of the Chicago dialect, but the odd way he had of speaking. He had this sort of slightly high, almost effeminate voice sometimes.

He had this kind of sibilant S. He had this very flat way of speaking, but it was a very melodic voice. And I think some of that was his Polish background. I think he used that folksy, Midwestern kind of aw shucks quality to disarm people and make himself seem non-threatening and safe and likable. So there are some scenes where I really consciously was trying to do the voice a little thicker when he's trying to win over the cops or when he's alone at home with the victims, some of it drops because he's a little more predatory then and he doesn't really care what they think of him. And so when I would get to work, I would really try to start warming up my voice and using the dialect as a way in. And then the end of the day, I would really try to drop it. And if I'd ever creeped up at home, my wife would be like, uh-uh, uh-uh, he's not welcome here.

[17:17] Michael Chernus: Now, another part of it, I'm sure, is that you have a family. So it's one of you anyway, you have to be there for that. That was sort of the unconscious piece was we shot the whole series in Toronto and I live in New York. And we decided that my whole family would come, we would all go together, we would move to Toronto for six months, which not all the cast did. Some people chose to go home on the weekends or their family would come for little visits. And we rented this beautiful townhouse in the annex neighborhood of Toronto, which is a really beautiful, quiet neighborhood. And my daughter was one and a half at the time. And we brought our furry rescue mutt, Murray, who's sitting on a couch right over here next to me, sleeping.

And so when I came home every day or every night, I just had to drop it. I couldn't bring it in. And I had to be dad and I had to be a husband. And I really think that if I was just alone in a hotel room or in some sad one-bedroom corporate apartment, I could have gone off the rails very quickly. But I was surrounded by love.

[18:30] Brandon Uranowitz: Hi, I'm Brandon Uranowitz and Behind The Awards will be right back.

[18:37] Eila Mell: So I'm just going to shift gears a little bit and I have to ask you, what kind of a name is Rickon? What is that?

[18:44] Michael Chernus: That is a great question. It's a made up name as far as I know. I don't know any other Rickons. That comes, I think, from the amazing mind of Dan Erikson, the creator of Severance.

[18:56] Eila Mell: Well, obviously, you're one of the main characters on Severance. Such a huge hit, such a fantastic show. And actually, our friend and guest, Donald R. Ritter, one of yours, and in your world on the show, because sometimes you show us someone you don't work together.

[19:07] Michael Chernus: Yeah, he plays Patton. Yeah, he is in our little world. There is a great group of actors who play sort of friends and hangers on. And most of those folks come from the theater world. And I think that's very on purpose because I feel like Rickon is very theatrical. And I certainly thought of people I know from my theatrical background when creating him. And I've seen people online on Reddit and whatnot be like, Rickon just, that seems so unreal. No one would be like him. No one would talk like him. And I want to respond, have you ever met anyone in the theater? I think he has cult leader potential.

[20:04] Eila Mell: Yes, that too. Yeah, absolutely. I also, yeah, thought about many cult leaders. But there's a kind of, and I say that with complete love, because I'm a theater person, but there's a love of, and maybe not just even theater, any person of letters, any sort of literary person. And I know so many writers, just the love of language, the love of relishing in words and sometimes over pronouncing words and creating an event like a no dinner dinner party that's focused on dialogue and discourse and not so much on serving courses, but serving discourse just feels innately theatrical to me. So yeah, I, as you can probably tell, I adore Rickon. I adore playing him.

[20:49] Michael Chernus: So much fun. And did you get to see Jen talk?

[20:52] Eila Mell: I sure did. A tour de force performance at Playwrights Horizons. I love Jen. I think she's just an incredible generational talent, and I'm glad she's finally sort of getting the attention she deserves. And I mean, she's such a good foil for you on the show.

[21:09] Michael Chernus: Yes.

[21:10] Eila Mell: But I first got to know you from Artistry Black. I think many people did.

[21:15] Michael Chernus: Yeah. Another great show that, well, first of all, that was the very beginning of the streaming days. And so when I was offered this part, and I think all I was given was the pilot, which Cal, I think has one line in, and they said it was a Netflix show. It sounds ridiculous now, but at the time I was like, what? That's the thing where you send away for the DVDs? And I was like, this is going to be like some web video, some web series. And we just had no idea. House of Cards hadn't come out yet. But I got that job because a lot of the writing staff were theater writers. And a lot of my TV and film careers happened that way, because I just knew so many playwrights when I was young, and those playwrights went on to be staffed on TV shows.

And supposedly, this could be totally untrue, but they had a board just in the writer's room of ideas and collage of things. And they were like, Piper has this hippie brother who lives in the woods, and someone had put a picture of me, not really for casting, just like he should look like this, this long-haired bearded guy. And eventually, they were thinking of casting him, and one of the writers was like, well, we could just cast that guy. He's an actor. And they're like, he's an actor? He's not just like a fish head out on tour with the Grateful Dead or fish or something? So that job kind of just fell out of the sky, and then ended up being this seven-season journey.

[22:43] Eila Mell: Yeah, this huge thing. You know, on Severance and Orange is the New Black, you kind of are part of the B stories, right? You weren't in the prison, and then on Severance, you're not in the office with them. So that probably, I would think, anyway, that affords you a lot of freedom to figure out what your world is.

[22:59] Michael Chernus: It does, and to tie it all back to the Devil in Disguise thing, I think it really helped me in playing John Gacy, especially in the way that our show was written. I'm, for lack of a better term, I'm a character actor, and I've played a lot of supporting parts, which I love. I love carving out my corner of a world and my corner of a story, and sometimes those characters are much more interesting than the leads. Like in Shakespeare, I'd rather play the clown than the protagonist. I don't want to be the ingenue, or even, I don't want to be Romeo. Give me Mercutio. Give me the...

[23:40] Eila Mell: Right.

[23:41] Michael Chernus: But because we were centering on the victims so much, it was this thing of like, even though his name is in the title, and he is the main character, and I was number one on the call sheet, and it was the first time I was ever the lead on a show, I tried to approach it in the same way I do playing a supporting character, in that I'm not wanting to be the center of the initiative. I'm not wanting to be the main focus of the story, and so how do I create this guy who kind of hides in the shadows and only shows parts of himself sometimes, and that we never really fully understand him at the end? It's that strange thing of when you're the lead, you're almost always the protagonist. And so in this show, I was the lead, but I was the antagonist.

I was the bad guy. I feel like I kept saying the play is called Othello. It's not called Iago. And so how do I play the villain and still embody the sort of lead character energy? And I think I was really aided by a career of playing supporting roles. And I'm sure also a career in the theater helps too, because when you're on stage, you can't keep stealing focus. It's about the entire picture.

[24:56] Eila Mell: That's actually a fantastic point, because being a lead in a play is a really different thing. You don't have the camera directing the audience's eyes, saying like, here's a close-up, here's an extreme close-up, look at this person. The audience can look at whatever they want. They can watch a piece of furniture for the whole play if they want. And so yeah, even if you're Hamlet, you can't be upstaging someone when they're speaking. And I think that's a different mentality, that sort of company mentality. And we had that on Devil in Disguise because there were so many actors with theater backgrounds. I mentioned the great Marin Ireland earlier, but Marin and I go way back, probably 20 plus years. And there was this sort of built-in understanding of how to be there for each other and support each other and support the larger purpose of the story.

[25:43] Michael Chernus: You know, one acting twist that you made that I think is really smart is that you never really show us what he's capable of. We see flashes of his darkness, but we really don't see how scary he actually was. We see it in the victim's reactions to him later.

[25:58] Michael Chernus: That's great, because that's really what we were going for. I mean, not only just like morally did we not want to show any murder on screen, we didn't feel like it's been done before. We didn't need to see the monster. It's much scarier to see the reaction on the victims and just see the fallout. I guess we weren't interested in making a scary show, but more of showing the impact of it and the tragedy of it. And I think we really wanted to stay away from the mustache twirly sort of, you know, anytime it got into the like, I'm playing evil now. We were like, okay, no, that's not our show. And we called it an experiment. We were going to see if the audience, if the American audience, if there was an interest in a different way of telling these stories.

And I do want to say, I believe there's room for all different kinds of storytelling. No shade on any other serial killer show. I think there's room to make the shows that are all about the killer and that are very scary. And then we wanted to carve out space for a different way of approaching these.

[27:01] Eila Mell: Well, I think it's more successful because we're so used to that other kind of storytelling. So without that, this doesn't succeed in the same way.

[27:10] Michael Chernus: Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to be the same thing. You want, you know, people, as much as they enjoy a certain thing, there's also too much of a good thing. So you do have to just be a little different to stand out with so many viewing options out there, no matter the time.

[27:25] Michael Chernus: Yeah. The time that this came along to the public, there had been so much hype about another serial killer show, which was Ed Gein, Ryan Murphy. Ed Gein was also out around the very same time. And I had watched that. And this is my opinion, not yours. For me, that was just way too sympathetic towards Ed Gein. And so when I found Devil in Disguise, this was just an antidote almost to that, where

[27:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[28:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[28:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[29:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[29:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[30:03] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[30:13] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[30:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[30:33] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[30:43] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[30:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[31:03] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[31:13] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[31:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[31:33] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[31:43] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[31:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[32:03] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[32:13] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[32:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[32:33] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[32:43] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[32:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[33:03] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[33:13] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[33:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[33:33] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[33:43] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[33:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[34:03] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[34:13] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[34:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[34:33] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[34:43] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[34:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[35:03] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[35:13] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[35:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[35:33] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[35:43] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[35:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[36:03] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[36:13] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[36:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[36:33] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[36:43] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[36:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[37:03] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[37:13] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[37:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[37:33] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[37:43] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[37:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[38:03] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[38:13] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[38:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[38:33] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[38:43] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[38:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[39:03] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[39:13] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[39:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[39:33] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[39:43] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[39:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[40:03] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[40:13] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[40:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[40:33] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[40:43] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[40:53] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[41:03] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[41:13] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[41:23] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[41:33] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?

[41:43] Michael Chernus: Did you watch Ed Gein?