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[0:00] Brandon J. Dirden: This is Brandon J. Dirden with Behind The Awards.

[0:12] Eila Mell: Hello and welcome to Behind The Awards. I'm Eila. I'm here with Bruce.

[0:17] Bruce Gotlieb: And good morning to you. How are you doing this fine day?

[0:20] Eila Mell: I'm good. Are we in the holiday season yet? I mean, is Halloween a holiday? What do you think?

[0:27] Bruce Gotlieb: I mean, I know many people that it's their favorite holiday. So I would have to say yes.

[0:33] Eila Mell: All right. You know, like, you don't get a day off for it. So is it an actual holiday?

[0:39] Bruce Gotlieb: But okay, let's well, so then we're in the throes of the holiday season, if that counts.

[0:44] Eila Mell: Oh, so to some people, it does. To others, you know, Thanksgiving is even a brush over. They just want to get right to Christmas.

[0:51] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, my gosh. Thanksgiving is better than Christmas, I think.

[0:54] Eila Mell: I agree. It's my favorite.

[0:56] Bruce Gotlieb: But Halloween is a lot of fun, for sure. I love the month of movies on American Movie Classics, I think AMC.

[1:05] Eila Mell: Sure.

[1:06] Bruce Gotlieb: It's so much fun, all the horror movies.

[1:09] Eila Mell: Well, speaking of holidays, you know, for the Broadway lover in your life, you always could go with, you know, a cast recording and yeah, or a vinyl they have, you know, some really cool, they're doing some really cool vinyl pressing with albums. I know the rent, they released one with the rent cast or the original. And it's just like really cool red. And it's, you know, they do some fun things with the vinyl.

[1:38] Bruce Gotlieb: They do. Although I mean, I don't know that people realize the limitations of vinyl. I know people think that it's superior in certain ways. Maybe it is until it gets a scratch or, you know, or it falls and it cracks. And you know, that's the end of that.

[1:52] Eila Mell: Right. I mean, that's true. So while most people don't have record players anymore, I guess maybe they're coming back a little bit. But maybe, you know, there was always the fun of you know, that crackle when you put the needle down. I know the record.

[2:07] Bruce Gotlieb: I know that noise. And also opening the jacket if it were like a one that opens.

[2:14] Eila Mell: Yeah, that was thrilling seeing the artwork and stuff.

[2:17] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, so you know, we have the original Broadway cast recording 30th anniversary edition, like I said, of rent, which is coming out November 13. From what I saw online. At the time of recording the Lost Boys actually the CD and vinyl both come out today, which seems perfect, you know, for Halloween upcoming. Yeah. If you do a little little vampire in your life. And then we have our favorite show, Voices of the Gilded Age, the Christmas album, which comes out on November 6. So people can, you know, mark their calendars and run out. It's a great Christmas gift. Plus, all of our Broadway friends that are on the show.

[3:08] Eila Mell: Yeah, no, they can sing. So I Christine Baranski. Yeah, for sure.

[3:12] Bruce Gotlieb: Audra. Yeah. Oh, hopefully she's singing something on it.

[3:12] Eila Mell: Yeah. So yesterday I had my own Gilded Age experience. I was going to see Rope. And as I'm walking down to see it, I passed Paul Alexander Nolan. He was just hanging out with a couple of friends.

[3:31] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, very nice.

[3:38] Eila Mell: So yeah. So I saw a tiny bit of the cast of the Gilded Age yesterday.

[3:45] Bruce Gotlieb: Nice. Well, you know, it comes back ready to rearing to go. So I know I've been waiting for it.

[3:53] Eila Mell: Oh, my gosh. What is going to happen with the Russells? He left her. I know. Shocking. There's drama and turmoil amongst New York City.

[4:06] Bruce Gotlieb: So, well, OK. Speaking of drama. Yes. Who is our guest today, Bruce?

[4:15] Bruce Gotlieb: We have the accomplished Brandon J. Dirden on our show to talk about his most recent directorial project.

[4:22] Eila Mell: Yes. He's actually like a no drama kind of guy, which I love. He keeps the drama on the stage.

[4:30] Bruce Gotlieb: That's right. That's right. Well, let's not make people wait a second longer and bring out Brandon J. Dirden.

[4:34] Eila Mell: Absolutely. Well, I saw The Imaginary Invalid recently, and it was the funniest thing I've seen in a very long time. And I'm so excited to welcome its director, Brandon J. Dirden. Hello there.

[4:59] Brandon J. Dirden: Hello. Good morning. Thank you for having me.

[4:59] Eila Mell: Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy life to chat with us about this show, your career and all the Broadway things.

[5:13] Brandon J. Dirden: All right. Let's do it.

[5:13] Eila Mell: All right. Well, so is it fun getting to work with your wife? Let's start there.

[5:20] Brandon J. Dirden: You know what? I don't know what I don't remember a time that I haven't worked with her since I've been doing this. We went to grad school together and before, you know, we were romantic interests. I was a huge fan, you know, just in school. And I swore I'd never date another actor. It didn't work out. And then I see this woman. And the first play I we did together was Angels in America. She was a third year MFA student. That was the first year. And she was playing the angel in a couple of the roles I was playing Belize and Mr. Lies. And I just remember starting rehearsal and looking at this woman like, what planet is she from? She's just, you know, she just has this quality that is so singular and so uniquely her that, you know, I just got captivated from day one.

So to say fun. Yes, absolutely. But it's more than fun. It's just it's really a privilege, to be honest, to be able to work with somebody you greatly admire, even, you know, even as a young student and just to see the promise and the talent already fully formed in our early career and just to watch her and to be a partner with her for these last 26 years. It's yeah, it's beyond fun. It's essential now. So I have to work with her, not just because I want a happy marriage, but because she's just the best.

[6:47] Eila Mell: And just so people know, her name is Crystal A. Dickinson, and she is so wonderful in this play.

[6:55] Brandon J. Dirden: Yeah, yeah. And I'm so happy. You know, this is actually, you know, a lot of people think, oh, you cast your wife. She actually had the job before I had the job.

[7:00] Really? Bill Irwin is probably one of her biggest fans. And so when Bill Irwin was putting a reading of this together back in late November, early December of twenty twenty five, he approached her about reading Bailin for the very first, you know, table read that we ever had. This is before, yeah, you know, was scheduled to go to Broadway or anything. And she was unavailable because she was working on another project. And so when this came online and we were talking about casting, well, it was already settled. There was no discussion. It was going to be Crystal in this role, because that's who you pictured from day one. He didn't picture me as a director from day one because he didn't know when this was going to be produced.

Or I was actually an actor in the first reading. I was reading a few of the roles, I think, Bonifoy and Dr. Pregon in that first table read. So, no, she's been on board since before I've been on board as a direct person. I actually ran into Bill on the street the other day. And yeah. And he was just talking about how great you are. And he was happy that you were coming on this show.

[8:11] Eila Mell: Oh, how did the switch come to be then from, you know, the from being an actor in the piece to then being a director?

[8:19] Brandon J. Dirden: Well, what happened was I've been inviting Bill to I teach at NYU in the grad acting program. And I teach a course called text analysis. And I like to do a sample of a lot of different styles of writers in that course. And I'm not an expert in every genre or every writer. And so because I have access to people who are often will invite them in and Bill is someone I perennially invite into my text analysis course to do a couple of weeks on Beckett. And so this past fall, he was doing that. And he said, you know, I just finished this adaptation I've been working on for a while of imaginary invalid. Can I bring this into class and maybe just hear it aloud? This is before anyone had ever read it.

He's like, I just want to hear how it flows. And maybe just the students can do me a favor every summer. And I said, that would be awesome. But no, we don't have any more time in the semester. We ran out of time. I said, but I'll do you one better. I have to direct a play for the spring, a language-based play for the second year. Let's do that. And why you let's do this draft, this version, and you can workshop it. And it'll be great for their needs. You can be in the room as much as you want to be in. And so we'll just see what we have. And this is great. Again, this is before any thoughts of a professional production. And so we started to work on it that way as adapted me directing it for these students.

And so when Roundabout approached Bill about this play and they were thinking about direction, I guess Bill, you know, took the path of least resistance, like, well, I already got a director for this one. Let's just keep the party rolling and bring him on board for that. I imagine that's how it went, because it was certainly Bill's decision and Bill choosing me to sit down for the Broadway production as well. I mean, why he thought I would be appropriate, only he knows. I mean, but I got to tell you, it's working with Bill over the years has come on those become those things that just say, yes, sure, because, you know, you're gonna have a good time. And, you know, you're going to come out the other in a much better artist, but really a bigger human being to spend that much time with a man who was that generous and that skilled and that curious.

It is so infectious. And you get to see, you know, how greatness comes about. And it's not an overnight. It's not some just solely some innate gift, which he clearly has. But it is also his dogged approach. It is also his tenacity, his nonstop. Again, I use the word again, curiosity, his wonderment, his playful spirit and his joy, and sometimes his frustration in the room that he's unafraid of all the things, all the emotions. But above all, there's always going to be a bedrock of kindness and in an industry where that is not necessarily always rewarded or seen as a necessary ingredient to making something. It is so refreshing to be with someone who believes that that is at the heart of what we do.

If our objective is to be in community with other people, the audiences or other collaborators, I do think it's a good idea to, you know, have kindness as a hallmark of that. And the possibilities that come from being in a room full of just generosity and a kind spirit are boundless. So that was my whole idea is, you know, as a director, as a collaborator is how do we create a room where people can be free? And to do that.

[11:56] Brandon J. Dirden: I think you got to start with, you know, kindness. And as an actor, you come from the other side of the table. So, you know what rooms you thrive in as an actor and you can create that environment then as a director to help your actors do the same.

[12:13] Oh, 100 percent. I think, you know, my favorite rooms to be in. And I've learned so much from so many great, great, great directors. You know, I work with Ruben Santiago Hudson the most, probably out of any director I've worked with. But there've been so many Dan Sullivan and Syrett Scott. But the one quality that all those directors have is just an innate trust in their actors. And they say, hey, maybe it's not there on day one, but we'll figure it out. And I'll give you the space and the time and the advice. And that's really what directing is, as far as I'm concerned. And that's something Dan Sullivan told me. He's like, it's just advice. The actors can take it or they not take if it works for them. Great. But nothing a director offers is law or the way it must absolutely be done. It's just advice. And hopefully it's very considerate advice and advice coming from a vantage point to help you or encourage you to go down paths that will, you know, add to the whole of the event.

[13:13] But there is nothing like a director who trusts their actors and says, hey, you're here for a reason because you're the best person. But the job and I trust that, you know, what you discover, what you come up with is going to be the exact right thing. So, yes, I think being an actor and having that opportunity to be in these incredible spaces has given me a lot of information on how to create an environment where actors can thrive. And that's what they have to do it every night. The script doesn't change. The lighting plot doesn't change. The set doesn't change. The only thing that changes from night to night are the actors in the audience. Right. And so those actors have to be malleable enough or nimble enough to, you know, to invite that audience on the right, whoever the audience is.

And we got to move together. But to do that, you got to have a lot of trust in yourself and your fellow collaborators that we can wrestle this beast every night. We can discover something for the first time real in this moment.

[14:36] You know, there's some irony in the fact that Bill is known as a physical actor and he's sitting in a chair. Ninety-nine percent of the play. But you do start off with him moving. Was that your idea, Bill's idea?

[14:52] It's a little bit of both. You know, Bill is I've described it this way. Working with Bill, it's like being on an episode of Chop, right? You know, that cooking show. Well, he just comes with this baskets of ingredients. He's like, I got this idea. I got this idea. I got this idea. And none of them are ingredients for breakfast, a lunch or dinner. They're just hodgepodge of everything from any course. They're all edible. But you're like, how do I fit these different ideas into the same plate? And, you know, they do because he's a genius and it just takes some time and questioning and real imagination to find that thread of how all of these. It could be an image. It could be a word that he has. It could be a sound that that is stuck with him. And you just take all this information and you say, okay, I can't use it here, but I'm going to hold on to this because I never know when I'll need it.

[15:51] And so that opening, it was his idea to start, you know, with a traditional commedia, with the staff, you know, the calling of order. It was my idea. I thought we would be most successful and really embrace this idea of an ensemble of a company. That's what Moliere was writing for. You know, again, he wasn't these plays weren't star vehicles for himself. Argonne, he played he played in Tartuffe. He didn't play Tartuffe. He played Argonne. You know, he played the kind of the butt of the joke a lot of times. But he wrote to the strengths of his company and he let them shine. And, you know, not that he he not that he wasn't an integral part of the storytelling himself in those roles, but it wasn't about him in these roles. It wasn't about Moliere in these roles. It was about the community. It was about the ensemble of actors very much from the commedia form, which he was borrowing from in which he was, you know, seeing in the day traveling with his troop.

[16:55] And so I knew I wanted to honor that spirit of the play. And Bill had an almost an allergy to the idea of this being a Bill Irwin and Friends show, you know what I mean? So he would do everything to try in and and take off some of the attention from himself. And I think that was wise in that he knew that the success of this show would hinge upon everybody being recognized and seen because it's a family story and we have to see the family and we have to see the obstacles, not just the central figure of Argonne. So with that in mind, him starting wanting to start with the staff at the beginning, I had this idea of if we're going to lean into ensemble, let's watch this ensemble bring us into this world.

[17:43] So how do we have all these eight actors create this space? And I think a lot of times people have an idea of what Moliere is supposed to be. So there's a version of this where it's curtain up and we see, you know, the opulent home, this that. But. So. Let's let's make an entry point. Let's invite the audience to discover what this version of Moliere as adapt about Bill Irwin wants to be. And also, let's embrace the theatrical art form of it all. I think we have so much sophisticated technology now to where we can present. Excuse me. We can present plays almost as if we're watching a movie, right? Yeah, things are so realistic. And I think, you know, to do this play, which is not exactly a farce, it's more satire, but it's certainly melodrama.

You know, it all takes place in 90 minutes with no jump cuts. Like this is real time action. And so the amount of that is packed into this hour and a half can only happen in a theatrical way. It's not a movie. It's not a TV show. And so I wanted to embrace this thing that we can only do in the theater.

[18:50] I want to embrace the theatricality of it all while still, you know, using the technologies that we have available to us with awesome lighting and sound and costume and design. And but never forget that we are in a theater. And so what better way to make this thing happen before our very eyes to invite us almost like if we're stepping through a portal into something that is not quite now and it's not quite then it's this fusion. So, yeah, it was a hodgepodge of his ideas. My intention is of how do we invite the audience and how do we celebrate the ensemble and this theatrical experience?

[19:27] And design wise, that opening is so interesting because it's pretty much like a bare stage at first. And the lighting does a lot of work. And it's really interesting. It just moves so fast that it feels like you're moving quickly from place to place. And I'm all good. Right. And then the set, you know, we see it come together. And, you know, let's shout out Beowulf for it. Just immensely talented. And it's just you can't believe that you're seeing this really opulent room come together before your eyes. It's very exciting.

[20:02] Oh, I'm so happy that I get. Yeah, that was a specific challenge for that. I gave to Beowulf. He was excited because I'd never done anything like this. But he's done a million and one shows. Yeah. But to have a world appear almost out of thin air was quite a challenge that, you know, used a lot of black arts magic with this and that. But he was I think he was really game from day one. His forced perspective that he uses. Right. I think it was just genius because there's also, you know, it's a very large stage is a Broadway stage, but it's like in one room. So the challenge was, how do we bring the action forwards and push it down to where the audience can be with us, but also still luxuriate in the opulence of this very wealthy man's home?

[20:48] Right. So this forced perspective, actually, it cuts almost cuts the stage in half while still giving us this feeling of grandeur in the in the in the space that the actors don't get swallowed up in. Right. It's a really cool trick for the eye and a feast for the eye, too. And then you completely forget that you saw it come together because you just accept that it's this room that has always been there.

[21:12] You know what I really love about it all, because the one thing and we can move on, sorry, but the one thing that I have to give a shout out to Beowulf is that I wanted this to be an analog world. Right. I mean, there's a there's another version of this where it's all automation. And again, we do projections and this and that, where we can celebrate those new tools that we have in theater. But it felt most appropriate to to that this is man manipulated, that we watch these actors, these these humans pulling this thing together and not some, you know, magical machinery that that is pull us into this world. But know that this is human hands that are saying, come on in, guys. We're going to we make we made this just for you. So if it still feels very analog, the entire world.

[22:06] I am Laura Bell Bundy, and behind the awards will be right back.

[22:13] Brandon J. Dirden: Were there, I guess, challenges with this show being done so recently and your adaptation or Bill's adaptation is completely different than the one that was on last season, but I'm sure you're going to get comparisons because obviously it's the same title.

[22:31] Sure. What type of challenges did you guys find that you had to tackle with that being so close in time?

[22:39] Yeah, you know, it's not something that we even consider, to be very honest. I did not have the opportunity to see that production last season. But the. Bill is such a singular artist in terms of his point of view. And I felt like, listen, the story itself is not a new story. Right. Right. It's we traffic in tropes and that's and, you know, Moliere's rightfully and often credited as, you know, the founder of or the the father to modern day sitcoms. Right. And you turn on any sitcom and and there's stories that are just repetitive, right, because they work because the story works. What's what makes it interesting is not a new story, but how this group of artists and their sensibilities match with the story.

That's the only reason why I want to see, you know, Hamlet again. Not just for the story itself, but to see what does that what does that group of actor that director, what do they highlight for me? How does it resonate with them? Right. And I think it's important. I think it's very important that we we make space for different interpretations of a singular story and that.

[24:09] Brandon J. Dirden: I think it's useful to know that we all deal with the same obstacles as humans, right? But how we approach those obstacles is really what the lesson is. And I think with Bill's sensibilities, and he often talked about this, his aim for this one was kind of a blend of Molière meets David Mamet, right? This kind of fast-paced attack on the language and where the stakes are really high. And I really dug that. I really dug it because we can lean more into, again, less of the slapstick, although there's a fair amount of that in this production and needs to be. And I think it's inherent within the world of Molière. But there's still also space for some really pertinent conversations, like the conversation he has with his brother Beraud about, you know, artists' health and what it means to really question these things that you take for granted in terms of your own personal care physicians and the advice that you just blindly take or you turn on the TV and you get sold this pill and that pill, but just to have curiosity.

I don't think this play is landing on one way or the other to say you shouldn't go with modern medicine or you should. It's not about that. It is what agency do you have in your own experience? Or are you just looking for the next remedy that's going to save you all from dying? And at the expense of relationships with other people in your family, right? So I think with Bill being so interested in using this as a way to say, hey, come back to family and him being really centered on this notion of let's try and strip away those distractions, those unnecessary distractions in our lives that are creating obstacles from me actually seeing the people in front of me and allowing those people who mean actually mean well for me.

How do I let them back into my life? How do I make space for that? What are those things that I'm obsessing over so much, right? And for him, for this hypochondriac, it's medicine, it's the spirit of death. For some of us, it's, you know, social media or other, you know, things that just take up so much bandwidth where we can't see the people in front of us. So that's a long answer to your very simple question of how we compare to the other production. I don't know how this compares to the other production, but I do know what Bill was most interested in and what excited me most about this production is, is what does a 350-year-old play still have to offer us today in terms of finding ourselves in better relationship with the people we love?

[27:00] Brandon J. Dirden: I really love the adaptation that Bill did, you know, like not the prologue, let's call that, but on the first scene, you know, he starts his monologue and immediately, you know, the rules of this play. So you understand that it's very based in the period, but the language is modern day. He uses terms like primary care physician and things like that, that you don't expect to hear in Molière, but, you know, but it gives people a way in. It certainly did for me. I've seen the play before. I actually did see it last season. And it is a very different adaptation. So anyone who thinks, well, I just saw that you really didn't, because this is a very different version of the show.

[27:39] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, thank you for that. I'm so happy that you found an entry point from the very beginning. And that's, you know, that's, that's, that's the notion is, is we, that's the first question that we have to ask ourselves. I ask myself as a director is why are we doing this? And, and, and how we in service, are you trying to be useful to the audience, you know, finds her who we're so lucky to have, you know, in, in the theater and spend a couple of hours with, like, what is it, what is it that we want to, to offer them or have, or what questions do we have that we would like for them to consider, but to be able to ask that question that we first have to invite them in to, to the world in a real way so that you found yourself in, in, in this world so soon, it means the world to me that we had the opportunity to, to speak to you directly.

Right. Because it connects to your everyday life because, you know, we all have primary positions and it just, I don't know, it makes it so just personal preference. I am not someone who likes flowery language, flowery language. I like, you know, realistic modern days things for the most part, you know, very much like the Americans. I like that.

[28:51] Brandon J. Dirden: Yeah. And, you know, let's talk about that because what a huge success for you.

[28:59] Brandon J. Dirden: Oh, life-changing. It really was. And I'm sure people are still discovering it because it's streaming.

[29:06] Brandon J. Dirden: Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting pandemic where it was a whole new surge and wave of, of that, you know, we've been off the air for a few years by the time pandemic hit, then people discovered that again. You know, it's fun because it was, it was a great critical success and, uh, you know, got a bunch of awards like the Golden Globes and this and that, but it didn't, but it wasn't on a major network, you know, at the time FX is a, but it wasn't on one, you know, HBO or things. And so it was this niche show, but the network really believed in it. And John Landgraf was president at the time, was really going for prestige television. And, and this was such a risky move because it's a slow burn.

Right. You know? And so to have the trust of a network that says, Hey, however long it takes to tell the story, we're going to give you the runway because we believe in the story, even if it isn't doing huge, huge Game of Thrones numbers. Right. But so that w and it was a bunch of playwrights in the writer's room, which made it so delicious for actors who understood, you know, relationship and not just like, well, I mean, but it did have its fair amount of, you know, of, of violence and gore and like tantalizing moments at those. But, but, you know, but by and large, you're left with the conundrums of these people in these relationships. Right. So, um, so it's interesting that, you know, three years after the finale during COVID it spikes again.

And then now since Kerry Russell's on the diplomat and what another, come on, you talk about somebody who can just pick them. Yeah. Listen, if ever I'm offered an audition or an opportunity and there's like Kerry Russell's guys like, Oh, this is going to last for a while. This is going to work. She is. She just has great taste and she's a dynamite artist is particularly for that medium. So now with a diplomat being so popular, people are going back and watching the Americans because like, Oh, what's another Kerry Russell thing. So now I'm getting stopped again on the streets because we just did a rewatch or, Oh, right. I use, I was a family diplomat. Now it's discovered the American. So, uh, you know, it's, I love how it's staying, how it's staying in the public consciousness, uh, even, you know, decade after we, we finished.

[31:17] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. What a gift. I'll watch anything with wigs and fake mustaches. So I was all in including Molière. Cause we got some of that.

[31:23] Brandon J. Dirden: That's right. That's right. Oh, well your cost, the costumes and imaginary invalid. Let's talk. Wow. I mean, I can't even say which is my favorite. Cause they're all so gorgeous.

[31:34] Brandon J. Dirden: Yeah. You know, this Karen Perry, who was criminally underrated, she's our custom designer and I've, she's the artist I've worked with more than any other artists in my career, uh, as an actor, she's, she's maybe put clothes on me in a dozen shows as an actor, maybe, um, as she's my go-to designer as a director. So she designed maybe half a dozen shows I've directed if not more. And the thing about Karen Perry is she gets story. You just get story. And so the costumes are always functional for the actors to tell their story. She is always looking at how do I help this actor with their piece of the puzzle? And it's never, you know, she's going to get her shine because their designs are always impeccable and always beautiful, but that is secondary to making sure the actors are comfortable and they, and they really mesh well with the characters that they have in mind.

So she spends a lot of time, not just talking to me, but really with the actors and what those actors want to do and how they intend to use the, you know, the, the clothing. It's one of those cases where I know if Karen Perry signs up and she agrees to design a show, that's like a third of a show. I don't even have to think about it because she's got it so well covered and I'm never going to be better at her job than she is. Um, you know, so we'll have initial conversations about who is this character and what do you want him to do, but then she just takes it. And with this production in particular, it was a little different because a lot of the shows I'm used to working with Karen Perry on are like a lot of August Wilson or more grounded kitchen sink dramas or some Arthur Miller, but to do this heightened world in this historic world, both she and I, well, I can't say for her, but I'm definitely stepping out of the box of what I'm normally asked to do as a director and as an actor.

But she just took to this world like a fish to water. And with a lot of her clues she got was from Bill's language, right? Is that, yes, we want to honor this 17th-century world, right? With these social dynamics, but the language suggests that we're in this other time, this more present, vibrant time. And so she's like, these costumes have to sparkle to suggest that we aren't in some dusty recreation of a period. This isn't a museum piece. This is something that kind of has crossed through a portal from the then to the now, and it has to have some pop to it. And that's what her costumes do. They, you know, even from the lighted ruffs and the prologue with these Dottore, you know, commedia figures, right?

It's not a look that is so, the word I'm looking for is static, right? There's a movement in all of these pieces and they're interesting. And it's just the details that she creates with are so mind-blowing and so current and so present that you just can't, you can't look away.

[34:43] Bruce Gotlieb: I know. Even like the bows on the shoes, really, they tell you so much. I mean, that's why the costumes are so important because there's a lot of characters and some people play multiple characters. So you have to know immediately who this person is by what they're wearing.

[34:58] Brandon J. Dirden: That's right. That's right. And it happens every time. As soon as that new character makes an entrance, the audience has a reaction, not because of something they said, but just how they look. Here's a brand new energy coming to this world. Let's see, you know, how they're going to change the proceedings of the day.

[35:18] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah. And then just to sort of add to that, Brandon and I are huge fans of Niki Amathus. And the day I saw your show, I had earlier that day seen School Girls. And so she did both of those shows and she does, obviously, the wigs. Oh my gosh. So completely different types of work. She's just brilliant at what she does.

[35:39] Brandon J. Dirden: She is. Again, another designer who understands story because, you know, she's an actor as well. And that's how I first met Niki.

[35:49] Brandon J. Dirden: Almost 20 years ago as an actor, and she's been one of my favorite actors, and now she's one of my favorite designers because she loves actors as well, and it's never about drawing attention to the design. It's always how is this in service to the story and how is this functional for the actor? Yeah, and I'm just that bowl haircut tells you so much about that character immediately; it's just brilliant. I mean, it is funny because if you look at just your everyday life, you're walking down the street or you're in a room somewhere and you see somebody walk in there, you're not maybe interacting verbally with them, but their look, that is put together clothes, hair, it tells you what you need to know before you approach somebody.

So, oh, speaks volumes, and he's Ram Delgado. Oh, he works that much. He works it. He is so good in this show. I've never seen him in anything before, so for me, this was such a huge discovery. Fantastic, I'm so happy because I think he deserves to be known far and wide in our community. You know, we did a first met him, I guess actually right before the pandemic, we were in rehearsals for Take Me Out. He was one of the ballplayers in Take Me Out, criminally underused. Well, not really. I mean, it's the story, right? Yeah, but spending time with him in rehearsals then, it's like this guy, this guy is a secret weapon. Yeah, I cannot wait to see what else he does, and so when this opportunity came, I mean, he was automatically, I got a real good feeling.

Yeah, that he can thread this needle. I mean, those three very different roles, I mean, not only do you need a versatile actor, but you need a team player, you know, who can pop out, who can disappear, who can be willing to be a master today in the beginning and the end. He can do it all; he's a utility player. There's nothing that he can't do, but most importantly, what I love about this actor is just his joy in the room. He's so cool, he's so positive. Anytime you give him another cause, yeah, I love that. I love it. Yeah, that's right. I love that, and he goes, and he doesn't just do the note that you ask him, but he ingests it and he makes it even better than what you know you've offered because he makes it his own, and so he filters it into the DNA of the character he's creating, not just some tagged-on idea.

You know, he's such a deserving actor, and he thanks me. I was like, oh man, thank you for this opportunity. I said, listen, I didn't do you any favors. This is well-learned, and I hope it's just the beginning of many, many, many more opportunities that you get like this because you're special.

[38:38] Brandon J. Dirden: I had no idea how funny he was going to be from the first character he played. Oh, yeah. All right. Yeah, and that's the thing, right? To have the discipline to sit in the cut with this first character where it's really, I mean, it's humorous, but it's not Tomas funny, right? It's bona fide character; it's more informational, you know? It's a character in service to helping us understand what the main obstacle is, right? He's in partnership with Baylene, and we start to see, all right, this is what our God is up against. This is what we're up against, the scheming wife, right? He so he aids in this subplot, this B plot, right? But it takes a real disciplined artist to not chase down and spin and blow the whole funny, you know, up front with that character, right?

To say, okay, I'm going to be serviceable and we'll move the story along. This other thing is where it needs me, right? And then to come in the third time as Florent the apothecary and, you know, and do something completely different there. It just takes mastery, right? And I'm so excited that, again, that audiences are responding to what he's doing because it's very deft. What are you doing? My friend, who I brought to the show, didn't realize that it was him playing those three roles. Yeah.

[39:57] Brandon J. Dirden: Yeah, that's a celebration of him, of Karen Perry, and the Kia. Yeah, so you guys are running through the 22nd. Any chance? Is there a room for extension in there? Is that conversation? No, you know, Roundabout has a subscriber series, yeah, season, so we gotta get out so you can, you know, make space for the new Dominique Morisseau play coming in with Ruben Santiago Hudson and carry on. And listen, I am NOT gonna hold them up. Those are brilliant artists that, oh my gosh, no, no, no. No, they are gonna set that stage on fire. So hopefully, we just leave some positive energy for them, some good vibes in the theater. But no, we got to pack it up, you know? I would love to; we're gonna save the chair.

Okay, it's Bill. I think what's so great about this production is every day I go, you watch these actors find more and more and more and more life inside of it without messing with the integrity of what we built. I think that's the genius of a company of actors like this who actually want to be with each other is that the longer you go, the more lived in it's gonna be, the more opportunities they're gonna find to connect with the material and with the audience. So I would not be surprised if this thing has another life. Bill certainly is; it's having the time of his life with it. So we're gonna hang on to the chair. I can't probably the guy still well, I think the costume should go to the, you know, Museum of Broadway or Missoni, and that just think there's so special.

[41:38] Brandon J. Dirden: Yeah, not that you're not, but we're not busy at all. But anything else coming up on the horizon that you can talk about that you have coming? You know, well, there's a couple of series that I shot this past year and the year before that are finally premiering. The latest season of P-Valley, which Katori Hall, as you know, created a show ran. I did an arc for her, and that's gonna be premiering, I think, in November on Stars Network. And then I just finished a series with Claire Danes and Ewan McGregor called The Spot. That's gonna be on Hulu, and that's good. I think it's early January that's coming out, so you can look for those, I guess next month and in early 2027. And then I'm a full-time faculty member at NYU Grad Acting. Hey, Crystal.

[42:37] Brandon J. Dirden: So, so, but now my students are like, come on, Mr. Fancy Broadway man, when you coming back to class? Back in the classroom now, which was where I love. I mean, teaching brings me the greatest joy. It's so important that next generation of artists. Well, listen, it's so important to me that I learned from them. Yeah, you know, they, I mean, they have access to so much information in their minds. I mean, I didn't grow up, you know, with, you know, the supercomputer in my head. The way they're wired is so exciting because it's fearless. They have a fearless take on their interrogation of things, and so their sensibilities keep me honest. They keep me fresh. It keeps me, again, useful to a whole new generation.

And so I tell them all the time, I'll learn way more from you than you'll ever learn from me here. I'll just try and pass down the nuts and bolts of good storytelling that I learned from the masters, and I'm just sharing advice, but you all teach me innovation every day.

[43:38] Brandon J. Dirden: Just before we go, I have to just talk about your work with August Wilson's work. Oh sure, I mean, what an honor to get to be directed by Ruben Santiago Hudson doing August Wilson. I mean, he is the clear successor to Lloyd Richards. So if you're gonna work with Lloyd Richards on August Wilson's work, it has to be Ruben. I think so. What was that experience like for you? You know, it's funny that you mentioned Lloyd because Ruben often in both in both Lloyd in the room, and see I've done one, two, three, four, maybe five August Wilson plays under his direction, that wonderful Jitney. Yeah, and that was the second Jitney I did with Ruben. I done one years earlier where I played Youngblood telling to River.

We did The Piano Lesson at Signature and Ma Rainey's Black Bottom. I think the thing about Ruben, which makes him such a great interpreter of August Wilson's work, is because August was interested in history. He was interested in the curation of a culture. He was interested in, you know, August has a quote in the beginning in his opening to Seven Guitars, and it's a paraphrase, but it's I'm gonna paraphrase it, but in a nutshell, he says the contents of my mother's pantry are worthy of the telling, right? So to take these people's lives, these stories as community and say this is stage work, this belongs, you know, on any stage in the world. This is world-class storytelling, and to respect that the way Ruben does and the way he honors not just the artists in the room, but our lineage and our history and celebrates that and not sanitize it and not try to make it all just beautiful, but make it, you show the ugly part, show the people, show it all, the full spectrum of humanity.

But more than anything, what August was really interested in was showing the indomitable human spirit, and that's what Ruben leans into, says no matter how hard it is, no matter how what you're up against, we are more than just survivors. We are warriors. We are capable of creation. We have all its higher community that we need to honor and to go back to because we are enough. We are enough. And so to be that empowered as an artist in the room to say it's all in the play, and all I got to do is show up and trust it and let this thing make me up, and I get to honor him, you know, from the South. I get to honor the way my uncles taught, the way my grandmother, you know, told stories to me, our peculiarities as a people, and that's valuable, and that's interesting.

It's again, I talked about this in the beginning of our conversation where I just want to create a room where people can be free. There is nothing more freeing than walking in knowing you are enough, and we just have to live in that. So yeah, working with Ruben is a direct lineage to working with August, to working with Lloyd, and it's something that must be passed down, and I'm so honored to now be in that lineage. And so when I direct August Wilson, you know, people just say, is that Brandon? Is that Ruben, or is that Ruben? Is that Lloyd? Is that Lloyd? Is that August? And I had a chance to work with August directly, too. Amazing. So, you know, I feel not just an honor but actually a responsibility to make sure that his wisdom, his advice is passed down to subsequent generations as long as I can.

[47:19] Eila Mell: Oh, well, thank you so much. This was just such a great conversation. I hope I'll come back.

[47:28] Brandon J. Dirden: Absolutely, anytime.

[47:30] Eila Mell: Meantime, everyone go and get your tickets to The Imaginary Invalid. You have a few weeks left, so you will get to see this wonderful show. It's well worth it, and we'll see everyone next time on Behind the Awards. Oh, thank you.