This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Eila Mell: Hi, I'm Eila Mell, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:04] Bruce Gotlieb: My mother calls me her little crybaby, and this is why.

[0:07] Eila Mell: Um, I play Effie White every night, and every Effie White was told that her talents will be better in the background, that she wasn't pretty enough, maybe not light enough, and that, you know, she could never be a star.

[0:25] Bruce Gotlieb: And every night when Effie White gets to sing that she wins, my confidence soars a little bit more.

[0:32] Eila Mell: And I hope anyone that sees a little bit of themselves in me and sees me standing on this stage. I hope that you're inspired. I hope that you know that you can do this if you really want to.

[0:55] Bruce Gotlieb: So that was Amber Riley accepting the award.

[0:58] Eila Mell: Was it best actress or best featured actress?

[1:01] Bruce Gotlieb: Best actress in a musical last year, 2023's Olivier Award.

[1:07] Eila Mell: Well, that sounds very prestigious, doesn't it?

[1:09] Bruce Gotlieb: I think so.

[1:11] Eila Mell: I mean, sir.

[1:12] Bruce Gotlieb: Lawrence Olivier?

[1:14] Eila Mell: Yeah, like the sir.

[1:15] Bruce Gotlieb: Like that's what gives it, I feel like, you know.

[1:17] Eila Mell: Yeah, it's got some gravitas.

[1:18] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[1:19] Eila Mell: Yeah, I agree with you. Like if I called you Lady Islamel.

[1:22] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, will you do that?

[1:23] Eila Mell: Sure.

[1:23] Bruce Gotlieb: I know a lady in real life.

[1:25] Eila Mell: Do you?

[1:26] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes, this woman, Lady Betty Grafstein.

[1:29] Eila Mell: Oh, hi, Betty.

[1:30] Bruce Gotlieb: And yeah, she had to go to England to the palace. And there was a whole not a coronation, certainly, but whatever the ceremony is to become a lady, she was.

[1:40] Eila Mell: I think we need to have Amber on and have a discussion about all of all things.

[1:46] Bruce Gotlieb: All things Olivier's.

[1:47] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[1:47] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, Amber, if you're listening, we know you listen.

[1:50] Eila Mell: We know you're our biggest fan.

[1:51] Bruce Gotlieb: Um, over.

[1:53] Eila Mell: Yeah, this is an open invitation. Whenever you're in town, we want you.

[1:58] Bruce Gotlieb: Exactly.

[1:58] Eila Mell: All right.

[1:59] Bruce Gotlieb: All right.

[1:59] Eila Mell: So I'm glad that's out of the way. Now we can move on because there's so much news, Bruce.

[2:02] Bruce Gotlieb: There's so much news.

[2:07] Eila Mell: So we are on the cusp of everything.

[2:12] Bruce Gotlieb: I mean, it is, we're in it, actually.

[2:15] Eila Mell: We're in it because Monday morning, Bruce and I went to the Drama League nomination announcement.

[2:23] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes.

[2:23] Eila Mell: And it was supposed to be Jordan Fisher and Vanessa Williams announcing it.

[2:28] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[2:28] Eila Mell: Then all of a sudden we got an email saying Jordan is not going to be able to be there, so Bebe Neuwirth is gonna step in in his place.

[2:35] Bruce Gotlieb: Due to a scheduling conflict, so now you don't scheduling, probably not.

[2:40] Eila Mell: That's never really scheduling.

[2:43] Bruce Gotlieb: But uh, we were thrilled just to be in the room.

[2:46] Eila Mell: We thought invited to the room.

[2:48] Bruce Gotlieb: That's right.

[2:49] Eila Mell: So we thought it was great to have Bebe, Tony winner.

[2:52] Bruce Gotlieb: Absolutely.

[2:53] Eila Mell: So that's fantastic. I'm pretty sure she's got two Tonys.

[2:56] Bruce Gotlieb: I believe you're right. I'll have to check my book for that.

[2:59] Eila Mell: That's right. Um, which was thrilling because we saw it in the Drama Bookshop.

[3:05] Bruce Gotlieb: We saw it at Theater Circle, where they said they're gonna put it in the window, so that would be amazing.

[3:10] Eila Mell: That is, and where else did we see it?

[3:13] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, the Museum of Broadway is getting it.

[3:15] Eila Mell: Yes.

[3:16] Bruce Gotlieb: So, yes.

[3:17] Eila Mell: So, and speaking of the Museum of Broadway.

[3:20] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, that's a whole, that was a whole nother event that we got to participate in, which was also thrilling.

[3:25] Eila Mell: Which is where we're bringing you our Chip Zien interview from. We had a live event at the Museum of Broadway.

[3:31] Bruce Gotlieb: It was our whole network. There were a number of shows that did live podcasting from that day, which was Podfest.

[3:40] Eila Mell: Yeah, and obviously the crux of most conversations, at least with us from people, were, you know, award season and what's going on.

[3:51] Bruce Gotlieb: So not to jump around all over the place, but so yes, we were at the Drama League announcement, and then I think it was the following day the Outer Critic Circle nominations came out.

[4:02] Eila Mell: So I think we should go through these. Buckle in.

[4:04] Bruce Gotlieb: I'm buckled.

[4:06] Eila Mell: I'm buckled, Bruce.

[4:07] All right, let's go.

[4:09] Bruce Gotlieb: So as far as the Drama League.

[4:12] Eila Mell: Yes.

[4:13] Bruce Gotlieb: So explain how that works because there's like 150 nominations.

[4:17] Eila Mell: There are.

[4:17] Bruce Gotlieb: So the distinguished performer category is a laundry list of names.

[4:24] Eila Mell: Right.

[4:24] Bruce Gotlieb: It's like 80 names because there's one award.

[4:27] Eila Mell: One person is awarded this honor, and you can only get it once in your career.

[4:34] Bruce Gotlieb: So once you're given it, that's it.

[4:36] Eila Mell: That's it out.

[4:37] Bruce Gotlieb: So there are people that I remember they had called attention to.

[4:42] Eila Mell: Yes.

[4:42] Bruce Gotlieb: Like Alfred Molina saying, we just would like to recognize these people who have been in the season.

[4:49] Eila Mell: Right.

[4:49] Bruce Gotlieb: They did great work this season. They're just not eligible because they've already won this award.

[4:54] Eila Mell: Correct.

[4:54] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. So we had a list of a mile long of all these names. Plus, then you have your standard categories, you know, play, musical, revival, and so forth.

[5:03] Eila Mell: Right.

[5:04] Bruce Gotlieb: But yes, so let me say one more time, just to clarify, if anyone isn't fully getting it, that there's one acting award, and it so they don't break it down between lead and featured and musical and drama.

[5:18] Eila Mell: I think that's worth saying.

[5:20] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes, it is. It is distinguished performance.

[5:23] Eila Mell: Right.

[5:24] Bruce Gotlieb: It could be a solo performance. It could be, you know, it's so it's open to everyone.

[5:28] Eila Mell: Yes.

[5:29] Bruce Gotlieb: But only one person's gonna get it.

[5:31] Eila Mell: That's right. Last year it was Annaleigh Ashford for Sweeney Todd, right?

[5:34] Bruce Gotlieb: That's correct.

[5:34] Eila Mell: Yeah, that must be a hard one to win because you're, there's so much competition.

[5:39] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[5:40] Eila Mell: And you're competing, like you said, you're competing with a solo performance. Plays against musicals. Things that are so different.

[5:45] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[5:46] Eila Mell: There is no, okay, well, it's a musical, so everyone now we can judge evenly.

[5:52] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes.

[5:53] Eila Mell: It's very much apples and oranges here.

[5:55] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[5:55] Eila Mell: But what an honor to get it. The show that is leading the nominations, um, including those that might be included in that distinguished list.

[6:04] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[6:04] Eila Mell: Is Merrily with five nominations.

[6:06] Bruce Gotlieb: So that's for the Drama League.

[6:08] Eila Mell: That's for the Drama League.

[6:09] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[6:09] Eila Mell: So that had best revival of a musical.

[6:12] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes.

[6:12] Eila Mell: Did it have best director?

[6:14] Bruce Gotlieb: I'm sure it did.

[6:15] Eila Mell: Yes. And then what else?

[6:16] Bruce Gotlieb: And then it had the three leads all nominated.

[6:18] Eila Mell: Was it Daniel Radcliffe, Jonathan Groff, and Lindsay Mendez?

[6:22] Bruce Gotlieb: Probably. I believe so, but I will be furiously looking this up.

[6:28] Eila Mell: I have put them on the spot here.

[6:31] Bruce Gotlieb: I didn't mean to.

[6:32] Eila Mell: But I thought that you could only nominate two from each show.

[6:36] Bruce Gotlieb: So maybe I don't understand the rules as well as.

[6:39] Eila Mell: That was my understanding as well.

[6:41] Bruce Gotlieb: But obviously not if it's the three of them, but let's see.

[6:45] Eila Mell: Uh, we have Jonathan Groff.

[6:47] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay.

[6:48] Eila Mell: We have Lindsay Mendez, and we also have Daniel Radcliffe.

[6:52] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay, so that must not be the rule anymore.

[6:54] Eila Mell: It's got the rules because then you know I know.

[6:58] Bruce Gotlieb: How to break it up.

[6:59] Eila Mell: Okay, so if anyone knows, you could drop us a note, a DM. We would appreciate that because you know, we don't know what's going on here.

[7:07] Bruce Gotlieb: So then aside from that, yes, we had a list of six, uh, seven shows, rather, all that had four nominations.

[7:14] Eila Mell: Right.

[7:15] Bruce Gotlieb: That these are the shows with the second most nominations. So you have O'Mary, which is transformation.

[7:20] Eila Mell: Oh, Mary is the talk of the town.

[7:23] Bruce Gotlieb: It really is. I haven't seen it, but I am very excited to see it.

[7:27] Eila Mell: Absolutely. What else?

[7:29] Bruce Gotlieb: Enemy of the People.

[7:30] Eila Mell: Okay.

[7:31] Bruce Gotlieb: Appropriate.

[7:32] Eila Mell: Yes.

[7:32] Bruce Gotlieb: SUFS, Cabaret, Gutenberg, and Stereophonic.

[7:36] Eila Mell: Okay.

[7:37] Bruce Gotlieb: So many of these shows are big, big, big leaders in the Tony race.

[7:42] Eila Mell: Absolutely.

[7:43] Bruce Gotlieb: Their conversations are had. And when conversations are had, these are always coming up.

[7:49] Eila Mell: I mean, we saw Stereophonic the other day.

[7:51] Bruce Gotlieb: We did.

[7:52] Eila Mell: And even in the theater, everybody was saying before it started, I hear this is going to be one of the best plays of the year. It's going to get the Pulitzer. It's going to get the Tony. It's going to get this and that. And everybody's going crazy over Stereophonic.

[8:03] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[8:03] Eila Mell: They're just handing out every award, basically.

[8:08] Bruce Gotlieb: So yeah. Now I will take us through the Outer Critic Circle nominations.

[8:15] Eila Mell: And this is much more traditional, where there's five in a category and it's broken down into a lot of categories.

[8:21] Bruce Gotlieb: The one thing I will say before you get started for our listeners is Merrily is not included in this because it was included in last year's Outer Critics because it was off-Broadway last year.

[8:34] Eila Mell: So for 2024, in the Outer Critics race, Merrily is not included.

[8:39] Bruce Gotlieb: I'm not sure I'm on board with that. Not that I have a vote in this, but I feel like the off-Broadway production was last year, and this is a Broadway production, so I don't know why it couldn't be eligible.

[8:50] Eila Mell: But okay. That's fine.

[8:51] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, I think one of the reasons is because it includes both off and on.

[8:56] Eila Mell: So maybe, okay.

[8:57] Bruce Gotlieb: And then I think also the question would be how much did it change? I don't know. It probably didn't change all that much. I haven't seen both productions. But you know, it was just a matter of months.

[9:08] Eila Mell: Right. I mean, listen, I'm sure those involved in Merrily would side with you and let themselves be nominated.

[9:14] Bruce Gotlieb: That's right. Why not?

[9:15] Eila Mell: All right. So I'll do what you did since there are so many nominations. Um, but this is the productions with multiple nominations. The leader here is really interesting. It's Dead Outlaw, the off-Broadway show.

[9:27] Bruce Gotlieb: Very interesting.

[9:29] Eila Mell: I know.

[9:29] Bruce Gotlieb: Andrew Duran starred in that. He was from Shuck. Do you remember him?

[9:32] Eila Mell: That's right, yeah.

[9:33] Bruce Gotlieb: Was his character Bo?

[9:35] Eila Mell: Yes.

[9:35] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes. Okay. So that had nine nominations, so that's a lot.

[9:40] Eila Mell: And then there's another list of the second.

[9:43] Bruce Gotlieb: It is.

[9:44] Eila Mell: Uh, The Connector, which I thought was great.

[9:48] Bruce Gotlieb: Yep.

[9:48] Eila Mell: Stereophonic.

[9:50] Bruce Gotlieb: Here we go.

[9:51] Eila Mell: So those had seven. And then the ones with six, Days of Wine and Roses, Illinois, and Tommy.

[9:58] Bruce Gotlieb: Very interesting.

[9:59] Eila Mell: And Illinois is coming in very buzzy.

[10:02] Bruce Gotlieb: That's what I've heard.

[10:03] Eila Mell: It's squeaking in at the last possible second to open and be considered. And it's just got this great buzz about it that it's, you know, the musical to see.

[10:14] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, I will tell you that Samantha from Survival Jobs, that podcast.

[10:19] Eila Mell: Yeah, she said it's gonna come in and sweep everything.

[10:21] Bruce Gotlieb: Wow.

[10:22] Eila Mell: She said, don't sleep on Illinois.

[10:25] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay.

[10:25] Eila Mell: Those awards to live by.

[10:27] Bruce Gotlieb: Apparently, I'm gonna have to hold on to those.

[10:28] Eila Mell: That's right. Well, she seemed to know what she's talking about. I think she has a good point here.

[10:33] Bruce Gotlieb: For sure. It'll be interesting. I like when something comes in and just surprises everyone.

[10:38] Eila Mell: Yeah, it makes it interesting, right? If you don't want a boring award show where it's the same thing winning over and over.

[10:44] Bruce Gotlieb: Uh-uh, when the Oscars, when they're all so predictable, it's not even worth watching.

[10:49] Eila Mell: But we have to.

[10:50] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, we have to, of course, because we love award shows.

[10:54] Eila Mell: You know, but it's not fun.

[10:56] Bruce Gotlieb: No, it drags a little.

[10:58] Eila Mell: But when do the Theater World Awards come out? When is that announced?

[11:02] Bruce Gotlieb: Because I didn't see anything on their website.

[11:04] Eila Mell: Um, I, but it's around the same time. I think they feel like everything's pretty much around the same time.

[11:10] Bruce Gotlieb: It's gotta be.

[11:11] Eila Mell: Those are fun because those are for debut performances.

[11:15] Bruce Gotlieb: So I guess you can only get that one once, too.

[11:17] Eila Mell: Yeah. Although they do have lifetime achievements too. I went one year and Nathan Lane got an honorary and he made a speech. It was the best speech I've ever heard in my life. He was wonderful.

[11:28] Bruce Gotlieb: Wow.

[11:28] Eila Mell: Totally win me over.

[11:30] Bruce Gotlieb: And you got to be in the room.

[11:31] Eila Mell: I got to be in the room.

[11:33] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, I do see here that the awards ceremony is going to be held on June 10th.

[11:38] Eila Mell: All right. Well, then they've got to announce it pretty soon. Who's getting those?

[11:42] Bruce Gotlieb: I think they know going in that they're the winners. I don't think it's nominees.

[11:46] Eila Mell: So there's no envelope and surprise.

[11:48] Bruce Gotlieb: I don't think there was no envelope when I was there for sure.

[11:52] Eila Mell: So, but that's a fun, fun night. And I think it's great. A lot of people, it was their first award.

[11:59] Bruce Gotlieb: Of course.

[11:59] Eila Mell: And you know, it was really like such an encouragement to them. So I love the Theater World Awards. I think it's a great idea.

[12:06] Bruce Gotlieb: So shall we talk about Podfest some more?

[12:09] Eila Mell: Sure, I'd love to.

[12:11] Bruce Gotlieb: We had a great event.

[12:12] Eila Mell: Great event.

[12:13] Bruce Gotlieb: We were so lucky. We had the best slot. We went last, which was just worked out by luck, but I love that we had that time slot.

[12:22] Eila Mell: Um, we had wonderful people there in our audience.

[12:25] Bruce Gotlieb: It was incredible.

[12:26] Eila Mell: And we had, you know, just an amazing guest, Chip Zien, who I saw the first thing I ever saw him in that I knew who he was was in the original cast of Into the Woods.

[12:38] Bruce Gotlieb: Sure.

[12:39] Eila Mell: Because he's the baker.

[12:40] Bruce Gotlieb: That's right.

[12:41] Eila Mell: And you'll hear him talk about being the baker in a little bit. And just, you know, some really great stories.

[12:50] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, you know, just such a rich history with theater.

[12:55] Eila Mell: Oh my gosh. Um, aside from just acting in general.

[13:04] Bruce Gotlieb: That's right. So I was on the Tony's Instagram account, and I talked to not just you know, Chip, although he yes, Chip, but also the other podcasts that participated in Podfest. And it was so much fun to meet with the other podcasters because most of them we had never met before.

[13:23] Chip Zien: Absolutely. And then also just to even get a moment with some of the people they were speaking with because it was great, yes. We got to, you know, have just a little conversation with creatives and that's right. So exciting.

[13:36] Bruce Gotlieb: That's right. So anyway, we're gonna post all of it on our Instagram. So just look for us behind the awards and you'll see everything. In the meantime, we are gonna bring you our live conversation that we had with Chip. It was so good. It was so good. And I can't wait to have him back to talk more because there's just so much more to talk about.

[13:55] Eila Mell: Absolutely. All right, so here without any further delay is Chip Zien.

[14:07] Bruce Gotlieb: So we here at Behind the Awards are very excited to welcome Chip Zien. Welcome, thank you for joining us.

[14:14] Chip Zien: It's great to be here.

[14:16] Bruce Gotlieb: Before we get really deep in, first, we wanted to just congratulate you. Two things. One, this year is your 50th year on Broadway. And the honor that you just received of your Sardi's caricature being just the other night.

[14:32] Chip Zien: Yeah, it's a dream come true. It's just an amazing thing. You know, I really something I really wanted to have happen at some point. Did you ever think it was going to actually materialize?

[14:43] Chip Zien: Well, I've had such great luck through the years, and but I started to no, I don't know. I thought, you know, what really gets annoying is when you've been around as long as I have, all your friends are there. Are they up on the walls? You go in there and you have to you suffer the indignity of sitting under Lewis J. Stadlin or one of my close friends or you know, Lee, all these guys that I started out with, and they're all there, and I'm going like, well, wait, well, where am I? Well, now you're there. So it's a treat to be up there. I was very honored, and we had a wonderful ceremony that was really an out-of-body experience because I knew every single person in the room, friends from all these shows, different shows. And it just was fantastic.

[15:28] Eila Mell: Was it like a this is your life kind of moment?

[15:30] Chip Zien: Yeah, I felt it was surreal. It was like, you know, if you have any sort of social anxiety in a crowd, this is an occasion to have that. I mean, it's because I felt like I had to sort of you know make everybody comfortable.

[15:43] Bruce Gotlieb: Right, you know like you're the host of this party.

[15:45] Chip Zien: Yeah, it's like that I'm the common link here.

[15:47] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[15:47] Chip Zien: That's why I don't give parties. It's too stressful for me. Yeah, it was great. Wonder so much fun, and Chris, my publicist, helped pull it together. It was fantastic. And Max over there at Sardi's like let us do it and honored me with that. And it was fantastic.

[16:05] Eila Mell: So I mentioned to you that I grew up with the mistaken impression that Hirschfeld drew all those caricatures at Sardi's, but it's not true. But you have a Hirschfeld story.

[16:14] Chip Zien: Yeah, you know, Hirschfeld through the years, you know, he does all the caricatures on the really famous fantastic drawings. Yeah, there's some in the museum. You know, you look through and you try to find his daughter's name, Nina, in the drawings, and they're fantastic. And early on in my career, I was in a show called March of the Falsettos. It's a hundred this is over 150 years ago. It was a really cool thing because he drew a caricature every Friday in the Friday Times. And there was always an article about an actor, and his Hirschfeld was in the article. And I, you know, I got asked to be that person on a Friday in that Friday column, and I was so excited about it because that's also really a cool thing to do.

[17:00] Chip Zien: You've arrived for acting.

[17:01] Chip Zien: Yeah, that's really amazing. You know, we sent him a production that he looks at production shots or he draws from pictures, and then they do a long interview. So I had done the interview the day before the it was the Friday, it was Thursday. I get a call from the theater saying, like, we have a problem. Do you have a headshot? We gotta have a headshot because we need a headshot to run in the article because it has to go with your article. I said it's a Hirschfeld, it's supposed to be a Hirschfeld, a headshot. You know, headshot eight by ten, thing your face, your picture. It was all theater crack.

[17:34] Chip Zien: Yeah, they know it. So what happened is that Hirschfeld drew the wrong person. Something, some there was some snafu where he drew my compatriot Allison Frazier.

[17:45] Eila Mell: What?

[17:46] Chip Zien: And so he thought you were Allison Fraser. He saw somehow the signals got crossed, and it was a very awkward moment because Alison said, Why don't they just change the interview, which would have made a lot of sense, and she was right. And you know, you already have my drawing, so let's run my drawing, Alison. Anyway, a long it was a long thing. Years later, I got a call from what was the name of the woman who ran the Hirschfeld Foundation. Do you remember it?

[18:12] Eila Mell: I don't, I can't think of her name, but there's a museum of Hirschfelds, and every so often I have some other, I did eventually have some other ones.

[18:20] Chip Zien: Oh, good. A bunch, actually, so which is phenomenal. Of course. But I got a call asking me if I wanted to buy my caricature from March of the Falsettos. And you know, by this point they're really expensive. And I said, I there is no caricature of me from March of the Falsetto. She says, I'm looking at it right now. I said, What does it say? What is it? She said, Oh, you know what? There is a weird thing here. It says it's a drawing of Alison Fraser, and underneath it, it says Chip Zien in March of the Falsetto.

[18:56] Eila Mell: That's what happened.

[18:56] Chip Zien: Wow. But you know, actually, if you go into the Hirschfeld Theater now, there's a really beautiful Hirschfeld of the cast of Into the Woods that is a lot of us, and it's watercolored. So it's like it's one of the rare Hirschfelds that's actually in color.

[19:13] Eila Mell: That's amazing.

[19:13] Chip Zien: And it's beautiful.

[19:15] Eila Mell: So you mean the original cast of Into the Woods that you starred in as the baker?

[19:19] Chip Zien: Yes.

[19:19] Eila Mell: The role you created?

[19:20] Chip Zien: Yeah. Oh yeah, that I was the baker. I always hear my it's it has become a every cast I've been in since, it's like a joke because I run around and I just say that off the cuff whenever I always you know I was the baker.

[19:41] Eila Mell: That's your go-to iceberg.

[19:43] Chip Zien: Not just that. It's like if I don't, you know, if I'm commenting on how the scene is going, and I've you know I'm upset about any it doesn't matter what the occasion is. I just go like, can we just pause for a moment? I'm the baker. I was the baker. I do it all. It's famous. It's a famous thing. Let people know. People who have had the fortune or misfortune to work with me close up.

[20:05] Eila Mell: Well, so what was it like creating a role in a Sondheim musical?

[20:10] Chip Zien: Unbelievable.

[20:11] Eila Mell: Yeah, right.

[20:11] Chip Zien: I always say, like, you know, I'm from Milwaukee. And I ended up in New York getting to work with Steve Sondheim, Stephen Sondheim, and on his 80th birthday, we did this show at Lincoln Center, and Mandy Patinkin was there.

[20:28] Eila Mell: Wow.

[20:28] Chip Zien: And Mandy and I were very close friends at that time in our lives. And he was from Chicago at some point. I'm from Milwaukee. And when I came off stage, Mandy was crying. And when he came off stage, I you know, we were just just crying, both of us, like what we're you know, I'm from Chicago, I'm from Milwaukee, and somehow we were here at Lincoln Center. It was unbelievable.

[20:50] Chip Zien: I got to meet Steve because James LePine had been at Playwrights Horizons. He did all of the falsettos, you know, he kind of created sort of reason out of chaos. I mean, he made he kind of made those shows make sense. And Bill Finn, who you know wrote the musical, but James worked with Billy Finn, brought me into the whole Falsettos family, and then LePine came on board. And then all of a sudden LePine was working with Stephen Sondheim.

[21:20] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[21:20] Chip Zien: And I, you know, and these were relationships that you make when you're young. And you know, the good fortune of James taking me with him first to Merrily We Roll Along. Oddly, we did. There was a production after the Broadway production of Merrily in La Jolla.

[21:37] Eila Mell: Yeah, that's a pretty famous production because it actually did better than the Broadway production.

[21:42] Chip Zien: Well, I loved it. People liked it more than the Broadway. I mean, I thought it was great. Heather McRae and John Rubinstein and myself, we were the three sort of principal actors. You know, it was kind of amazing because John Rubinstein, being the son of the most famous piano player possibly that ever lived, played the piano through the whole show.

[22:05] Eila Mell: For real.

[22:06] Chip Zien: Wow. John was incredible, and Heather with her pedigree, you know, my dad was a plumber. Well, I always say that. How'd you get in there? That's the point. I'm doing interviews with Heather McRae, who's Gordon McRae's daughter, Gila McRae, and John Rubinstein and his father Arthur Rubinstein, of course. My dad was Al Zion, from Zion Plumbing and Heating.

[22:27] Eila Mell: Well, that's important too.

[22:29] Chip Zien: Yeah. And I always that was always amusing to me. And he was Pippin.

[22:34] Eila Mell: Yeah, and John was Pippin. Incredible.

[22:37] Chip Zien: Yeah. So I ended up I was in Merrily, and then Merrily, we thought maybe we would actually come back to New York, but we didn't. I was invited for a day in the country at James LePine's summer home. I got out of the car with my wife, and he said, Is your have you talked to your agent? I said, No, what's up? He said, Yeah, Merrily's we're not gonna it's not gonna happen. And I, you know, the color I just really almost fainted to be honest.

[23:04] Eila Mell: You hadn't been the baker yet.

[23:05] Chip Zien: Yeah, no, I have right so that big role. He said, Well, but LePine, he said, No, don't worry about it. He said, I'm working on something else. It's about fairy tales. And he took me upstairs. He had an old K-Pro computer. Remember this?

[23:17] Eila Mell: Yeah, these old what we used to think of as being portable, but they weighed about 400 pounds.

[23:23] Chip Zien: It was like the with a little four-inch screen. They were just like clunky, right? That was high tech.

[23:27] Eila Mell: Yeah, that was the highest tech. Everybody loved we thought those were great.

[23:32] Chip Zien: And he showed me scenes from Into the Woods, and that's how I first became aware of that. And I think I foolishly said to him at the time, yeah, but this is about like fairy tale people. We've got like a real show with real people that has all this history and Meryl, you know, and I said, Why can't we? He said, No, no, no, I'm on to this project now, and the rest is history.

[23:52] Eila Mell: So was it an immediate you trusted him based on your experience with Falsettos, or were you like uh gonna see how this unfolds?

[23:59] Chip Zien: I then now that's an interesting story too, because when I did a reading of the first act of Into the Woods at Playwrights Horizons, there wasn't any music, it was just James, his script of the first act. And I played Rapunzel's Prince.

[24:17] Eila Mell: Oh, really?

[24:18] Chip Zien: Yeah. And I was fantastic. I just crushed out. I've never been funnier in my life. And LePine came up to me afterwards and he said, like, what are you doing? What are you doing? He said, It's not this that's the wrong style of comedy. It's not, it's not, you know, beyond the fringe or one of those, you know, you know. I thought, well, I kind of blew my shot there. I guess that's not gonna happen. I was then in California doing a TV series that nobody saw.

[24:48] Eila Mell: Was it Love, Sydney?

[24:49] Chip Zien: No. But no, it was after that. But it was called it was called Shell Game. Hands on CBS.

[24:56] Eila Mell: No, nobody says.

[24:57] Chip Zien: This is a visual, there's not a one hand.

[24:59] Eila Mell: Yeah, there's nothing.

[25:01] Chip Zien: Nobody saw it because it was dead last in the ratings.

[25:05] Eila Mell: Really?

[25:06] Chip Zien: Yeah. Now, but I didn't know that. I was shooting it at the time out in California, staying at Oakwood, if you've ever had the honor of staying at Oakwood. It's this furnished place, it's usually divorced parents or it's a really sorry. I shouldn't say that. I love Oakwood. I love Oakwood.

[25:22] Eila Mell: Big advocate of Oakwood.

[25:24] Chip Zien: Yeah, huge advocate of Oakwood. And I get a call from that's actually Ira Weitzman, who was casting Into the Woods to go to San Diego. And he said, Um, how would you like to play the baker? And I said, uh, ooh, that would be how did that come about? You know, I said, that would be incredible. And he said, well, here's the thing, LePine's gonna call you momentarily. But my advice is he wants to he wants you to fly back to New York and audition. And Ira said to me, he said, don't do it. He said, tell them you're busy, tell them you're shooting, your schedule won't allow it. Don't come back, because if you come back, they're so confused about who they want to cast in this role.

[26:02] Chip Zien: They may change their mind once they get you back here. So Le Pine called and I said to him, I said, James, I mean, you know, I'd give it anything to play that part, but I've got this problem. I'm shooting Shell Game, you know, this big series for CBS. And I just can't make it. He said, Well, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. And so, you know, so Ira after that, he said, No, that was what you did was perfect. Basically, the point of the story is I lied my way into Into the Woods, which is all about character and morality. That's right. The whole thing I did was just an outrageous lie. And eventually Le Pine called me back and he said, Well, I don't know what to do. I said, We're just gonna offer it to you. It was kind of how it went. You know, that's a good ending. I said, Perfect. So that sounds great. And that's how it happened.

[26:57] Chip Zien: I came back to New York, it was going into rehearsal right away. Joanna Gleason, who I already knew at this point, was there. And you know, it just um the luck. I mean, I you know, people say, Oh, you know, we have to, you know, I am telling you there's so much luck in show business that happens to you, and you kind of have to, I guess, show up at the moment that you're it's required. But I mean, really, the fact that that sequence of events took place is remarkable. But it's also having the relationship. The relationships mattered, and yeah. I mean, you know, the next thing you know, you're standing at Sondheim's house and you're setting keys, you know, to make it fit your voice, your vocal range, and you're in his den, and it's like wow.

[27:44] Chip Zien: Yeah, this may you know that this is cute too, is that Steve Sondheim's house, his brownstone, was next to Katharine Hepburn's brownstone.

[27:53] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh, really?

[27:53] Chip Zien: Oh wow, yeah. I was in a movie with Katharine Hepburn, which was also like unbelievable, but it was possibly the only bomb that she ever made. So it's like everybody, my every, you know, a character actor like myself was trying to get this part, and I saw I got this part, but I had to go meet Katharine Hepburn at her house. She met me at the door, and then she said, let's go walk. There's a garden in the inner courtyard of where she lives, and this in Murray Hill, there's this garden that all of the brownstones back up against, and it's historically preserved from like 1917.

[28:30] Chip Zien: Wow. And she was unbelievable, she said, you know, this is the glass that Spence drinks out of. Do you drink scotch? And I said, No. I but I I mean I said yes, but I I didn't. More lying. You know, I said, what was I gonna do? We get out in the park and she said, you know, there's this guy who lives next to me.

[28:47] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[28:47] Chip Zien: I said, really? I said she said, Yeah, have you ever heard of Steve Steve somebody, Stephen Sondheim or something. I said, Yeah, yeah, I've heard. I've heard of him. She said, he's terrible. He's a terrible person.

[28:59] Bruce Gotlieb: Really? What didn't she like about him?

[29:03] Chip Zien: He plays his piano at three o'clock in the morning, and I have had to crawl up. There was a rose trellis on the side of Sondheim's house, and she said, I've climbed up there, and the back of his house was like a uh uh uh what do you call it, all glass enclosed, like uh in a garden house? Like a greenhouse. And she said, I pound on the glass. I said, Stop playing the piano all the time. Stop playing the piano. If only there were video of that. That would be amazing. Now I'm now I get to be in Sondheim's house. And you know, I I've met his neighbor and Sondheim says to me, you know, you know who lives next door? Unbelievable. She's horrible. She climbed up one night and was pounding on the glass in the middle of the night, scared the hell out of me.

[29:46] Chip Zien: And the thing is, in Into the Woods. Now, this may or may not be true, so I you know don't don't count on this. It's historically accurate. I'm gonna pretend to be a little bit more than that. But there is a line in Into the Woods, which is it's the witch from next door. Who knew who that was basically? I've always had a hunch about where that line came from.

[30:11] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh my gosh. So what movie were you in with her?

[30:13] Chip Zien: No, no, no, no. Was it like the Shell Game of movies?

[30:18] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, yeah, it was equal. It was just uh it was um it's out there if you look for it. I literally it got to be somewhat controversial because it was so badly received and it was Hepburn and you know the New York Post called me and asked me like what happened. Really? You know, reporters. I'm going like, no, I don't I don't know. Anything was great, I had a great time. Can't I gotta run?

[30:39] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[30:40] Chip Zien: You know, it was like so you know, but yeah, if you go on IMDB, you'll see what you know. Now we'll have to do some searching later. Yeah, I'm yeah, but I I just can't even I can't. I can't but it's there.

[30:52] Chip Zien: All right. I mean, there's so much to talk about. The thing about well, you you know, the thing is, is that the director of this film was a guy by the name of Tony Harvey. You know, I love this guy. He was just British and funny and dry, and I loved him. But Hepburn would rehearse, and so I I was um I rehearsed it was then the Mayflower Hotel, which no longer exists. We rewrote the scene. I have all these scenes with Hepburn, and like you know, it's terrifying to know that you're about to act with Katharine Hepburn. I mean, come on. So we had rewritten all the scenes. When we got to shooting my scene, which was shooting these scenes, which was a few months later, I had learned you guys know that you get like white pages, usually the original scripts on white pages, and then as the versions of the script come in, they're all different colors, pink pages, green pages, you know, different colors.

When we get to shoot the scene, Tony, the director said, Explain to Kate why we've rewritten the scenes. And I thought, you what I'm supposed to explain. I'm just you know, no, I've I'm supposed to explain. Right. And so um and eventually Kate Hepburn said, These pages may be great for you, but they destroy my, they ruin my character. Oh we'll do the we'll do the original white pages. I don't know one word of the original white pages, and about five minutes, you know, from that point we had to shoot the scenes.

[32:18] Chip Zien: Oh my gosh. So here I was in this amazing job with Katharine Hepburn. And I didn't know, I didn't know my lines. It was a nightmare. But she was happy with the scene as we played it. Well, we we did the original version. Yeah, I I I could have been better. If you look this up, you'll notice I could have been better. I had very big hair though in that era. So that's it. Maybe you think it isn't me. I huge hair.

[32:44] Bruce Gotlieb: So we should talk about Harmony. You were just here the other day because of Harmony.

[32:45] Chip Zien: I loved Harmony. We just had this great event yesterday that put us in the we're in the window. In the window out front, we're in the window out front. Harmony was the for me was just the roll of a lifetime. It just couldn't have been. I uh you know, it it it's come at this point. I guess I had to be this age to do it. Yeah, sure. But you know, to think I had you know that this happened to me at this point in my career, that you know, I get a call from Warren Carlisle, our wonderful director, who said, you know, like, uh, we think you're this is good for you. And then Barry Manilow calls, and I think, like, God, yeah, you know, he actually he knows my name. Let alone. And then, you know, I mean, the whole thing was unbelievable.

He said, Barry sent me like like 30, it's about 37 clips, little short audio clips of my entire of all the stuff that I sing in the show. You know, I used to take my cell phone. I've told this story before, but I used to take my cell phone at the time I was doing uh I was in Caroline, or Change for the Roundabout. Right. But it I I would take my cell phone in front of that cast and like drop it on the floor, so that hopefully, you know, I'd put Barry Manilow's uh phone call to me on there with his name, and I'd drop my phone and go, like, oh damn, look at that. I dropped my phone. And I look down and I say, like, you look at that. Oh gosh, who is that? Oh, that's Barry Manilow just called. Right.

[34:08] Bruce Gotlieb: So you literally literally name drop it.

[34:12] Chip Zien: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good. You know, and then you know, the whole thing, we we did a reading of it in September. I look, I just loved the show. Yeah. And I'm really opinionated. You know, but I thought I really think it was a great show, and I I wish we were still running. I really do. I I know. I think it should have gotten more love than I think. I think it should, yeah. I mean, I just um, you know, it was a tough time with uh international things that are important and big issues came up. So I I had to sing, I sang a song at the end of the show that's very emotional and kind of complicated. We were doing this reading before we did the show off Broadway. Yeah. And I really was struggling to learn it.

Warren Carlisle asked, you know, Chip, you how do you know it? I said, No. He said, Well, don't try it anyway. I said, No, I I and you know, the whole cast is sitting around. And I just was absolutely it was like the actor's nightmare. I had to sing Threnody is the name of the song, and I had to sing it. I didn't have a clue what I was doing, but I I got through it. And this wonderful supportive company of actors was, you know, they were very nice. I loved that somebody entrusted me with that song. And I find it so compelling. I felt a real responsibility to deliver it every night as best I could. The whole show, I just I you know, I'm just I'm repeating myself. I just be it's a beautiful show, I just loved it.

And I think the one of the other things people I th I you know, I think people were maybe a little confused about what maybe it was, you know, out there in the theater going audience. But but you know, Barry Manilow wrote a score that uh there's beautiful songs in it. Yeah, I mean it's so tuneful, and it's and it's also period specific. You know, Barry Manilow is one of our greatest pop songwriters that has ever lived. Everyone knows him. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows all of his songs. But the score is a real Broadway score. It was really fun to perform, and it's i it's beautiful. I just love it.

[36:17] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, you wouldn't know that it was Barry Manilow's score.

[36:19] Chip Zien: Right. You would you wouldn't uh and I so many of my friends who came to see it, I think were surprised. They didn't know what to expect. Yeah. I think a lot of people outside peripherally think it's gonna be something very poppy. Yeah, because his name's attached to it, but it is like you said, it stands on its own. Yeah, it's it's its own thing. And also, you know, it had a there was a band of six guys. Right. And those actors were all great. And they they are they, you know, the whole thing. One of the great things about being in a show is actually just being backstage. Yeah. The audience gets to see 50% of what's actually going on. Those six guys were so great, and Sierra Boggess, who I just adore.

You know, it's really fun backstage. Julie Banco was there, and and of course, and and Sierra and I are really close friends. But the guys, you know, each one of them was individually hilarious in their own way. They're very smart. And they're all they're they're all triple threats. They could dance, sing and act, and I really miss it.

[37:20] Bruce Gotlieb: Now is Copacabana ever going to be in the show?

[37:24] Chip Zien: Well, I used to joke. I I joked about it. I said when I one of my agents first called me about it, I said, Well, wait, wait a minute. I had said I don't want to play rabbis anymore. I said, I said, can't we cast a wider net? I mean, is that isn't there something else that you know terrible that I said that's a good one? Well, this was the rabbi. And they said, Well, I I think you want to look at this. I said, Well, what's this I mean, like Barry, it's gonna be, you know, Hoopa Cabana. I mean, like, really? I mean, what do we what's and who knew? I mean, I didn't know. Yeah, and I feel terrible that I I had any thoughts that doubted what Barry was capable of doing. But I knew. But like, seriously, it's one of the best scores I've ever had the joy to be able to sing. And it was around for years. They were developing. Well, a long, long time. We'll be right back. We have to listen to some commercials.

[38:22] Chip Zien: So I was the rabbi. I was added in just for this production. And it started downtown off Broadway. My part was played originally by one of the harmonists who was a young guy, and he would step out as that character and sort of do some of the narration, which I did in the show. So they divided the part up. And so there was a young Danny Kornfeld played me or played the rabbi as a young man. Yeah. And I was the narrator and then threaded in and out of the action and then got to play like a lot of the people that they met.

[38:57] Chip Zien: You know, I got Strauss and Albert Einstein and, you know, it's really fun things that just were exciting. I couldn't, you know, I just kept running back out on stage. I mean, it was so much fun. And then it gets like really deeply serious and important as the second act particularly goes forward, and it's an arc that every actor gives his left arm to play. I mean, to be able to do to be funny and then be really seriously not funny, to take that journey, it was amazing.

[39:32] Eila Mell: Yeah, what a gift of a role. What a gift. Did you have a similar working experience when Barry came out to the project like you did with some of the pieces of music and sitting down?

[39:32] Chip Zien: Barry was great. I mean, at one point, you know, I was worried about my voice and losing my voice and all that stuff. There was one rehearsal where I was pretty shaky and maybe I, you know, I did every show on Broadway. I was never out, so I'm very proud of that. But I found a way to navigate, but I was just learning. Barry said, "Look, this is impossible to sing all this stuff. If you need anything changed, change it. I can lower it, I can raise it, we can change the notes. We can do anything you want." And he said, "Just call me." It was unbelievable.

[40:27] Eila Mell: Did you take that as a challenge or did you actually make changes?

[40:29] Chip Zien: I was determined. I made a couple changes in "Therinity," but sometimes I didn't always. There were some nights when I had optional notes. I could sing optional notes. Occasionally I had to do that, but very rarely. I was just determined to do it as I had heard it originally, which was so impressive.

[40:50] Eila Mell: Well, so I mentioned "Love Sidney."

[40:52] Chip Zien: Oh my god, I love that show. I remember I watched that. "Love Sidney." Oh, that's unbelievable. Does anyone else know "Love Sidney"?

[40:59] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[40:59] Chip Zien: Are you serious? Was that one of your first?

[41:05] Eila Mell: You're not alone. No one is alone.

[41:08] Chip Zien: Okay. Was that one of your first big jobs?

[41:12] Chip Zien: Actually, you know, because I'm the age I am, my first big job on television was when "Love American Style" was still on the air. I shot what they called at the time a backdoor pilot. It was three guys. They were gonna be like my three sons, a version of that kind of story. But "Love Sidney" was unbelievable too because it was shooting in New York originally. I was a guest playing Tony Randall's boss. I got really friendly with Tony after that, and Tony Randall, we'd walk around on the Upper West Side where he lived, and he would always say, "We have to keep moving fast, move quickly, walk faster." I said, "Why?" He said, "If I get stopped, I get mobbed."

[41:57] Eila Mell: No.

[41:57] Chip Zien: Yeah. He said, "We can't slow down." I did a guest shot. Tony, you know, he's just great. He said, "You helped the show, you helped the show. You know what? Let me, I think I want you back." And I thought, like, yeah, you know, you always hear this. The next day, my agent got a call from Warner Brothers saying, "Tony wants him on the show." So I ended up on a show that filmed where I now on 81st where Staples is on 81st and Broadway now. That used to be the Reeves sound stage, and "Love Sidney" filmed right there. I lived at the time on 68th Street, so I could walk, you know, nobody gets to do this. Walk to do like a half-hour show, just walk uptown a few blocks and be on this show.

[42:49] Chip Zien: And then "St. Elsewhere" came around. You remember that show?

[42:53] Eila Mell: I do remember that show.

[42:54] Chip Zien: Okay, so "St. Elsewhere." I'm now doing "Love Sidney," but I had done a movie before that, and "St. Elsewhere" offered me a role that I played in the film to be on "St. Elsewhere."

[43:00] Chip Zien: It's sort of based on a movie that was called House of God. It's, uh, which is, uh, was a, um, what do we call that? It was a, uh, sort of an English translation of, uh, Beth Israel Hospital. So th—they offered me the

[43:17] Eila Mell: Oh really?

[43:18] Chip Zien: Yeah, but I had a, you know, by this point I thought, well, I have a daughter, I live in New York, I'm walking to a half-hour show, and it's fantastic. So that decision wasn't always the best because then "Love Sidney" moved to California when I went with it, and then it got taken off the air, and then "St. Elsewhere" ran for 10 years.

[43:41] Eila Mell: A long time.

[43:42] Chip Zien: Yeah. I mean, maybe I would have sunk "St. Elsewhere" too. There's no way to know. But then who knows if "Into the Woods" would have come your way.

[43:50] Eila Mell: Well, that, yeah, I mean, you know, everything. Even "Falsettos."

[43:54] Chip Zien: Right. Let's talk about that.

[43:56] Chip Zien: Even "In Trousers." For anyone who knows about this, "In Trousers" was Bill Finn, William Finn, who's this just brilliant composer, Tony winner, several times, as he tells me every day. He wrote this show called "In Trousers," which was the beginning of sort of the whole Marvin trilogy thing. I was going to California. I was frustrated. I thought, well, I'm gonna go to LA and try to get a TV pilot. This is before cell phones. I get to the airport and go up to get my ticket to go to LA. The desk said, "Somebody's trying to reach you, Mr. Zien, and here's the phone number." It was my agent saying, "Could you delay the trip? Because there's this sort of interesting young composer and this interesting material.

He's written a show called 'In Trousers,' and they're interested in you for the lead." I could have said, "Well, I'm already at the airport," but I went back. I just turned around and went home and then heard the most amazing cassette tape of a show called "In Trousers" that I still have. I mean, it's Bill singing all of his songs.

[45:01] Eila Mell: I was gonna ask him.

[45:02] Chip Zien: Yeah, I mean, and it's like he's a real character. I thought, wow, this is unbelievable. And then that led to everything, you know, everything that happened. That was also sort of a stroke of good fortune.

[45:16] Eila Mell: Oh, because you didn't get on the plane.

[45:17] Chip Zien: I didn't get on the plane. Was it just a gut feeling that you needed to stay for this?

[45:21] Chip Zien: I was always torn about traveling and, you know, and what, yeah, which couch am I gonna sleep on in LA and like what am I doing? I had a child and a life and a family and my wife back in New York, and what am I doing? I never quite knew what I was doing, but it all just kind of happened.

[45:44] Eila Mell: It worked out, yeah.

[45:45] Chip Zien: Yeah.

[45:46] Chip Zien: So "Falsettos" started as different plays.

[45:50] Eila Mell: Right.

[45:50] Chip Zien: They weren't merged together yet.

[45:52] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[45:52] Chip Zien: Well, "Falsettos" was "March of the Falsettos" and then "Falsetto Land," and those two were merged together to be "Falsettos" on Broadway. You know, "In Trousers," yeah, it was a whole family. We did so many weird iterations of those shows, but each time they seemed to be pretty successful.

[46:10] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[46:10] Chip Zien: I actually had said when we did "March of the Falsettos," I was really cocky when I was younger. We were rehearsing "March of the Falsettos." Andre Bishop said, "So, what do you guys want to do? Do you want to have critics? Do you want to just perform for an audience? Do you actually want critics to come in?" I said, "You know, I actually followed him into his office and I said, 'We are absolutely not ready to open. This show is not ready. We cannot open this show. I know exactly what can work and what can't. This show is not ready to open.'" Andre just kind of looked at me. Andre is not, you know, has for years just retired as the head of Lincoln Center. One of the most important producers in the world ever, and smart as a whip. I think that night Frank Rich came because he was friendly. There was a group of friends, the authors who worked at Playwrights, and he reviewed it. It was a rave.

[47:09] Eila Mell: That's all you needed.

[47:09] Chip Zien: And like I had just, and so it was a huge joke through the years about my judgment about certain things.

[47:17] Eila Mell: If they had listened to you.

[47:18] Chip Zien: If they had listened to me, yeah, yeah. If they shouldn't. They should. They've learned not to. A lot of times when things like that would happen, James Lapine or Bill Finn, they would just say, "Can someone run out and get Chip a sandwich? Because apparently he's hungry." Because he gets cranky like this when he hasn't eaten.

[47:37] Eila Mell: Let's take a minute to hear a word from our sponsors.

[47:44] Chip Zien: So can you tell everyone what you told me about how you got started in theater? We had this wonderful conversation done. It was an amazing moment.

[47:54] Eila Mell: I know.

[47:55] Chip Zien: I’m from Milwaukee and I was watching the Tony Awards, and I was thinking maybe about being an actor, but I was also really thinking about going to law school. I was in Milwaukee. The reason I was in Milwaukee was because I was teaching sixth grade.

[48:13] Eila Mell: Oh.

[48:13] Chip Zien: Because that was a deferment when law school and acting were not.

[48:20] Eila Mell: Okay.

[48:20] Chip Zien: So I'm watching the Tony Awards. Ken Howard won a Tony Award that year for a show called "Child's Play," and he thanked the law schools that had inadvertently encouraged him to go into acting.

[48:39] Eila Mell: By rejecting him.

[48:50] Chip Zien: By rejecting him. And later, the director of that show walked up on stage and he also won a Tony Award. His name was Joseph Hardy. My very first audition in New York that mattered was for "You're a Good Man Charlie Brown." Out of the darkness of the theater, Joe Hardy walked forward, this director who I just seen on the Tony Awards win for this play, and I thought, oh my god, this is unbelievable. But the point of the story is that in your book, you know, it's—

[49:15] Eila Mell: Well, so as Chip was telling me the story downstairs—

[49:25] Chip Zien: You finished it.

[49:26] Eila Mell: I know where you're going with this.

[49:28] Chip Zien: This was unbelievable.

[49:28] Eila Mell: No, I didn't know anybody else who remembered or it's in the book.

[49:28] Chip Zien: It's in the book.

[49:31] Eila Mell: Where's the book?

[49:32] Chip Zien: Oh, the book is—my friend Rory is getting it right now, hurriedly.

[49:37] Eila Mell: This is unbelievable.

[49:39] Chip Zien: So yeah, so I have the—this book is the quote from the speech.

[49:46] Eila Mell: That's right.

[49:46] Chip Zien: Which is, I had no idea that anybody else had clocked it like that.

[49:49] Eila Mell: I did.

[49:50] Chip Zien: I thought it was, you know, so in the book I wanted to take some acceptance speeches. There's not a lot of them, so I could only pick my very favorite, and that's one of them.

[49:59] Eila Mell: Unbelievable.

[50:00] Chip Zien: So now we've got to do that.

[50:01] Eila Mell: I love that.

[50:02] Chip Zien: Yeah, so your one of your pinnacle Tony moments happened to be one of her favorite Tony moments, which is a nice little book edit.

[50:09] Eila Mell: Isn't that great?

[50:10] Chip Zien: Yes.

[50:10] Eila Mell: And that's why awards are important.

[50:13] Chip Zien: Yes.

[50:14] Eila Mell: But it changed your life, the Tony Awards.

[50:16] Chip Zien: Absolutely.

[50:17] Eila Mell: So that's amazing.

[50:18] Chip Zien: Absolutely did. And it also makes me really nervous.

[50:20] Eila Mell: Well, we're not even going to think about it.

[50:23] Chip Zien: Think about that, okay.

[50:24] Eila Mell: We have good thoughts about it, but that's all we're gonna say.

[50:27] Chip Zien: Good, good.

[50:28] Eila Mell: So we are—we good on TV? We have a couple more minutes.

[50:30] Chip Zien: We have a minute.

[50:32] Eila Mell: So anything new and exciting that you can talk about, maybe?

[50:36] Chip Zien: Well, let's see. My next event is Encores. I'm doing "Encore." I'm in "Titanic."

[50:40] Eila Mell: That's so exciting.

[50:44] Chip Zien: Playing the owner of Macy's, Isidore Strauss, and yeah, opposite Judy Kuhn, which is pretty cool.

[51:00] Eila Mell: I know the original Cosette from "Les Miz."

[51:02] Chip Zien: Yeah. Have you done Encores before?

[51:05] Chip Zien: I did. I find, you know, it used to be a lot easier because you used to stand at music stands with a script. Now it's a full-on production. It got fancy. There was a time, there was an interim time when you weren't allowed to put your script down even if you weren't at a music stand, you had to carry the script around. Now it's staged like a complete production. You have two weeks to learn the whole thing and get out there and do it, and it's scary.

[51:31] Eila Mell: Yeah, it's intense.

[51:33] Chip Zien: Yeah, it's scary. We're gonna come see you and support you in that.

[51:37] Eila Mell: Please.

[51:37] Chip Zien: All right. Be generous.

[51:38] Eila Mell: I absolutely thank you.

[51:40] Chip Zien: Well, thank you so much for being our guest.

[51:42] Eila Mell: Thank you.

[51:43] Chip Zien: Thank you for the stories.

[51:43] Eila Mell: Wonderful stories.

[51:43] Chip Zien: Thank you.

[51:48] Eila Mell: So much fun.

[51:49] Chip Zien: Thank you so much.