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[0:09] Eila Mell: Hello and welcome to Behind the Awards.

[0:11] Bruce Gotlieb: Hi, Bruce.

[0:12] Eila Mell: Hi, Eila. I'm so excited that it's Tony season.

[0:15] Bruce Gotlieb: It's Tony season.

[0:17] Eila Mell: The ramp up has been feverish.

[0:19] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh my god.

[0:19] Eila Mell: And now we're in the thick of it all. It's so exciting.

[0:23] Bruce Gotlieb: Um, there are so many things to discuss. There were some snubs this year.

[0:25] Eila Mell: We did, and if you haven't listened, please go back.

[0:30] Bruce Gotlieb: Our reaction, which was minutes after.

[0:30] Eila Mell: Minutes after.

[0:34] Bruce Gotlieb: It's just our quick take immediately following the nomination.

[0:39] Eila Mell: So, you know, we were worked up to a frenzy at that moment.

[0:41] Bruce Gotlieb: We were.

[0:42] Eila Mell: And now we've had a chance to sit with it, have let our feelings, you know, resolve a little bit. We're a bit more clear-headed.

[0:47] Bruce Gotlieb: I'm not quite as upset over Chip's Science Snub.

[0:53] Eila Mell: I wanted it so bad.

[0:54] Bruce Gotlieb: I know, I wanted it for him. Um, but now we're gonna take you into a deep dive.

[0:58] Eila Mell: We're gonna go every category.

[1:01] Bruce Gotlieb: Yes.

[1:01] Eila Mell: Not all today. We're gonna, so we have a series of episodes leading week by week leading up to the actual Tony Awards.

[1:09] Bruce Gotlieb: So we'll be coming to you every week with a bunch of categories that we're gonna go through and give our predictions.

[1:15] Eila Mell: Yes, so on top of our weekly episodes, which are our regular interviews that you've grown to love, you're now gonna have these little features.

[1:22] Bruce Gotlieb: That's right. And we have help because we called in the big guns.

[1:26] Eila Mell: We had to bring an expert in.

[1:27] Bruce Gotlieb: That's right. Even though we like to tout ourselves as experts, we're not in comparison.

[1:33] Eila Mell: Well, you know, we are experts. I mean, you know, I did literally write the book on the Tonys.

[1:38] Bruce Gotlieb: Literally.

[1:39] Eila Mell: I that I just in stores near you. I said that to be a little obnoxious, but only for fun.

[1:44] Bruce Gotlieb: Um, no, Matt Stashin is our guest, and he's wonderful.

[1:48] Eila Mell: First of all, he's seen almost every show that's out this season, right?

[1:53] Matt Stashin: Yeah, yeah.

[1:53] Eila Mell: Fair enough to say.

[1:55] Matt Stashin: If we haven't, and chances are he has.

[1:58] Bruce Gotlieb: That's right. And he is a Tony historian. He knows his stuff.

[2:01] Eila Mell: So I actually called him in for some help when I wrote the Tony Awards book.

[2:08] Bruce Gotlieb: So who better to go to for some expert advice?

[2:12] Eila Mell: Exactly. So let's say hi to Matt.

[2:14] Matt Stashin: Hi, everybody. How are you?

[2:16] Eila Mell: Welcome to our show.

[2:17] Matt Stashin: Thank you for joining us.

[2:18] Eila Mell: Thank you for having me here. We're going to in this episode do some deep dives.

[2:23] Bruce Gotlieb: The categories that we've chosen to go into today are going to be featured actor in a play, sound design of a play, choreography, orchestration, and then featured actor of a musical.

[2:37] Eila Mell: So we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna go in first with featured actor in a play. Isla, do you want to share those nominees?

[2:46] Eila Mell: I would love to. I'm going to play the role of Renee Elise Goldsberry as well as Jesse Tyler Ferguson today and announce the nominees for Best Performance by Featured Actor in a Play.

[2:58] Eila Mell: We have Will Brill from Stereophonic, Eli Gelb, Stereophonic, Jim Parsons, Mother Play, Tom Pasinka, Stereophonic, and Corey Stoll, Appropriate.

[3:10] Bruce Gotlieb: All right, Matt, let's dive in.

[3:12] Matt Stashin: All right. So what are your thoughts on Will Brill for Stereophonic?

[3:17] Matt Stashin: I really liked him in that show. I mean, having the three of them was kind of interesting because you have kind of the antagonist of the story, the villain of the story, which was Tom Pasinka.

[3:27] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[3:27] Matt Stashin: And who really emerges as the hero of the story, which is Eli Gelb.

[3:31] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[3:31] Matt Stashin: And then Will Brill, who just had this character arc as the show went on.

[3:35] Eila Mell: Did you see three supporting actor nominations coming for this category?

[3:39] Matt Stashin: I didn't either. That was a real surprise.

[3:42] Matt Stashin: I kind of expected, maybe because his was the performance that I really walked out loving. I expected Eli Gelb. I was not expecting three.

[3:52] Matt Stashin: So Will Brill, I think he's great. I really, I loved him from The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, where he played Mrs. Maisel's brother. I fell in love with him there.

[4:02] Matt Stashin: He was in the revival of Oklahoma. That was very controversial. Um, I think he's a great actor. I think he's fantastic in Stereophonic.

[4:12] Eila Mell: Agreed. I what he does with his role is unexpected and fun. Do you think this is a well-deserved nomination?

[4:20] Matt Stashin: I do. I absolutely do. Uh, he does what a good performance should do. He keeps the audience guessing.

[4:24] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, that's true. Bruce, what are your thoughts on Will?

[4:28] Bruce Gotlieb: I thought he was good. I um, of the three of us probably liked Stereophonic the least. I just didn't feel myself rooting for a character, which is normally I either what you either should hate them or root for them.

[4:42] Bruce Gotlieb: If they're a villain, obviously you want their job is that you loathe them by the end of the show. I just felt very neutral to them, and I wanted to go in feeling more maybe I was overhyped by some of the buzz around it.

[4:56] Matt Stashin: Um, I think all of them gave decent performances. I just wasn't super captivated by them.

[5:02] Bruce Gotlieb: You know what I liked about his performance is that he was like this, the wild one of the group in this show, and I thought he brought so many different levels to that.

[5:12] Matt Stashin: There was absolutely that. But then he was, you know, he had these quiet moments that were great. And just I again, unexpected. The performance was just I don't see anyone else doing it that same way.

[5:25] Eila Mell: Agreed. And to piggyback off of what Bruce said, like you have people you genuinely like, and I get like none of these people were without flaws. The characters.

[5:32] Matt Stashin: But exactly. I know the actors, I'm sure they're all wonderful people. I don't know any of them. But to walk out, as Bruce said, you know, you walk out, if there's somebody you walk out truly disliking, like that was what Tom Pasinka did so well in the quote unquote Lindsay Buckingham role.

[5:48] Bruce Gotlieb: If we're gonna compare it all to Fleetwood.

[5:50] Matt Stashin: Yeah, I think it is. But um, that's what he did so well was he played the villain and he antagonized everybody else on that stage from moment one to the curtain call.

[6:01] Bruce Gotlieb: Especially Sarah Pigeon.

[6:02] Matt Stashin: Absolutely. Um, yeah, that's a tough role because the audience is not going to like him.

[6:09] Bruce Gotlieb: Exactly.

[6:10] Matt Stashin: And you know, you can't stand next to the character as the actor and show that you're good, but the character's bad, right? So you have to really dive in.

[6:17] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[6:17] Matt Stashin: If the actor does that, the performance will not work.

[6:19] Bruce Gotlieb: No.

[6:20] Matt Stashin: And he committed. And there are people that have made a career for being villains. I mean, there's a way to do it. And you know, there have been there have been actors who have been quoted to say how much fun it is to play a villain.

[6:32] Bruce Gotlieb: They love that, you know, to put on that mask and to just, you know, be a little nasty, and what a great way to be able to stretch yourself and do something that maybe you wouldn't do outside of your real life.

[6:43] Eila Mell: And when she walks away at the end of the show, his reaction to that, Tom Pasinka is just so good, right?

[6:50] Matt Stashin: Absolutely.

[6:50] Eila Mell: Yeah, that I think those moments were his finest agreed in the show. So that was for me a surprise nomination, but a happy surprise.

[6:58] Matt Stashin: Absolutely. And then um, well, let's close out Stereophonic with Eli Gelb, who I think is the heart of the show.

[7:04] Matt Stashin: Agreed. I think he is a standout in this excellent cast.

[7:09] Eila Mell: Agreed. Um, you know, it's not a showy role. He does so much with it, and he's just you just root for him, you pull for this guy.

[7:18] Matt Stashin: He has to take a lot from the other characters.

[7:21] Eila Mell: And oh, it's a great performance. So much of his performance was reacting to what other people were doing rather than driving the story himself, which is probably a harder job.

[7:32] Matt Stashin: Yeah.

[7:32] Eila Mell: I would say so. And I know I was left with I said to Isla after the show, because we went to see it together, I said, Why was his nose pink the entire time?

[7:45] Matt Stashin: Not that it affected, I he definitely of the three of them, if I had to pick, I would pick him.

[7:50] Eila Mell: But it was just funny, he got like redder and redder as the show went on. It was a very interesting choice.

[7:54] Matt Stashin: And if we ever get the opportunity to speak with anybody on that show or even him, that's that's the uh kind of cutting uh edge questions I have.

[8:03] Eila Mell: The nose.

[8:03] Matt Stashin: Yeah, I don't know why his nose is red at the end, but it but it was.

[8:07] Bruce Gotlieb: Is it possible he just had a cold?

[8:08] Matt Stashin: Uh, anything is possible.

[8:10] Eila Mell: All right, but so tell me about Jim Parsons and Mother Play.

[8:13] Matt Stashin: Oh, Mother Play. Okay. Um, through this entire series, you are going to I will I will probably extol the cast of Mother Play. I think all three of them, quite honestly, are doing some of the best work of their entire careers.

[8:25] Eila Mell: So in and Jim Parsons had to go from, you know, uh obviously younger than he is, teenager I think he's 14 when the show starts.

[8:35] Matt Stashin: You know, through an adult life. So did that did that give you any, you know, does that inform your decision about his job as an actor, like that he had to have this range?

[8:47] Eila Mell: I mean there's definitely a l a huge character arc that he ages probably 30 years over the course of the show.

[8:53] Matt Stashin: Sure.

[8:54] Matt Stashin: And both he and Teal Keenan Bulger do it fairly effortlessly.

[8:58] Eila Mell: Yeah, I mean when the show does start, you know, he's skipping around stage a little bit. There is this whimsy about him that is more adolescent than you know that of a 30-something year old where when as the show goes on.

[9:13] Matt Stashin: Uh, so I think he did that well. I think he was able to bring some youth because they don't do anything costume-wise, uh, with makeup, hair, anything like that to inform you, to let you know that you're dealing with somebody who's, you know, playing a 14-year-old.

[9:31] Eila Mell: It is purely on him to to paint that picture and to bring you in and let you know that okay, wait, this isn't Jim Parsons sitting in front of me as Jim Parsons. This is the character, and this is a 14-year-old as the story starts.

[9:47] Matt Stashin: It's so hard to compare, right? First of all, it's art. So, you know, it's just really opinion. But also, what each role asks of the performer is so different.

[9:57] Eila Mell: So it's really, it's any of them could win and it would be great. But you know, but we have to make hard choices. Let's talk about Corey Stoll, who I think was excellent and Appropriate.

[10:09] Matt Stashin: Absolutely. You know, he's like sort of the grounded one in this family. And, you know, that costs him a lot, and we get to see that as the show goes on.

[10:20] Eila Mell: There's like a slow burn he does.

[10:22] Matt Stashin: Absolutely. And um, you know, I mean, he's a great actor.

[10:25] Eila Mell: Yeah. I just, you know, he he's been in many things, and he's just it's a great time for him to have this role.

[10:32] Matt Stashin: Um, you know, if he won, I wouldn't be surprised. What do you think, Matt?

[10:36] Matt Stashin: I agree. I mean, I think this is it could go five different ways, and it wouldn't be all that surprising.

[10:41] Eila Mell: I feel like I'm gonna say that a lot this year.

[10:43] Matt Stashin: I know. But that's the thing that's so exciting to me about this season is that it there's no real favorite, except maybe in the revival category.

[10:52] Bruce Gotlieb: Agreed.

[10:53] Matt Stashin: You know, I think there was so much great work across the board. You know, there you could take out all five nominees in some categories, replace them with five other people, and they would all still be completely deserving.

[11:05] Eila Mell: Right.

[11:05] Matt Stashin: There were so many choices.

[11:07] Bruce Gotlieb: All right, so now it's time to make that call, Matt. Who is going to win?

[11:11] Matt Stashin: Of these five, I think it is going to be Jim Parsons.

[11:18] Matt Stashin: Part of me still thinks Eli Gelb will pull it out, but I I personally would vote Jim Parsons.

[11:24] Eila Mell: So that's who you think.

[11:26] Matt Stashin: I think he's going to win.

[11:27] Eila Mell: Going to win. Okay.

[11:28] Matt Stashin: All right. Just want to make sure.

[11:29] Eila Mell: So I I would agree with that. I think his um I think his arc is just so much greater than any of the other actors that I think that helps him stand out.

[11:41] Matt Stashin: Like you said, it's subjective, right? It's art. So someone can get up there and do a mime production and be, you know, favored to win over somebody who you know was a one-person show.

[11:52] Eila Mell: I just think the arc that he takes you on is uh just more compelling.

[11:57] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, I'm torn. I think it could be either Jim Parsons. I think the Stereophonic people are going to cancel each other out.

[12:05] Bruce Gotlieb: But I think Corey Stoll could also get the win because Appropriate is such a great show, and he's such a solid actor.

[12:14] Eila Mell: So I'm gonna be bold and I'm gonna go with Corey Stoll. That's who I'm predicting.

[12:17] Matt Stashin: Okay.

[12:19] Eila Mell: All right, now who do you want to win?

[12:21] Matt Stashin: I mean, my personal favorite performance of the year was actually not nominated.

[12:26] Eila Mell: Oh, so who was it?

[12:27] Matt Stashin: I I'm gonna go all the way back to last summer with The Cottage and Alex Moffat.

[12:32] Eila Mell: Okay.

[12:32] Matt Stashin: I absolutely loved everything he did in that chat.

[12:36] Eila Mell: That was a that was a great performance for sure.

[12:38] Matt Stashin: And I think better than I had expected it to be. Uh, so I I can get behind that.

[12:44] Eila Mell: My want is very much just it's it's Jim Parsons.

[12:48] Matt Stashin: So it's it's not as it's not as fun a tale.

[12:51] Eila Mell: Well, okay, but Matt, uh, I like that you're throwing out Alex Moffat in there. That was uh such a hilarious performance.

[12:59] Matt Stashin: It was so good.

[13:00] Eila Mell: Absolutely. I had only ever seen him in Saturday Night Live.

[13:03] Matt Stashin: Same.

[13:04] Eila Mell: So this was great. I love seeing him on stage. I hope he does more theater.

[13:07] Matt Stashin: I hope he does more everything.

[13:09] Eila Mell: Absolutely. Um, of the list we have, who do you think you want to win?

[13:14] Matt Stashin: I I would I would be torn between the same two, with Jim Parsons or Eli Gelb.

[13:18] Eila Mell: Okay.

[13:18] Matt Stashin: Uh, I'm gonna stick with Jim Parsons, though, as my personal favorite performance of the five.

[13:22] Eila Mell: And I'm going with Eli Gelb. I'd like to see him win, but I wouldn't be upset if Will Brill won either.

[13:28] Bruce Gotlieb: Just because I like him so much.

[13:30] Eila Mell: But for this show, I think Eli Gelb does it for me.

[13:34] Bruce Gotlieb: We'll be right back. We have to listen to some commercials.

[13:41] Bruce Gotlieb: All right, Bruce, what is our next category?

[13:44] Bruce Gotlieb: Best sound design of a play.

[13:47] Bruce Gotlieb: So we have Justin Ellington and Stefania Bulbarella for Ja Ja's African Hair Braiding, Leah Gelp, Mary Jane, Tom Gibbons, Greyhouse, Bray Poor and Will Pickens for Appropriate, and Ryan Roomery for Stereophonic.

[14:09] Eila Mell: So, uh, of the three of us, Isla, I think you're the only one that actually saw Ja Ja.

[14:17] Eila Mell: So can you share a little bit about sound design?

[14:20] Eila Mell: I would be happy to. Yes, I did see Ja Ja. I loved it. Um, I think that this sound design very much helped put you in that hair salon. Um, it did its job. It's solid. You know, I think sound design is a category that if you don't notice it, it's doing its job well. So it's not a flashy category. Typically, although this year we do have one flashy one in there with Stereophonic.

[14:47] Eila Mell: That's the nature of that show, obviously.

[14:50] Eila Mell: Yeah, I think Justin Ellington is great. Stefania Bulbarella, she's great. You know, I this would be a good choice. And I would love to see Ja get more love than it's getting even.

[15:03] Bruce Gotlieb: But what about the sound for Mary Jane?

[15:07] Eila Mell: Uh, if I'm, you know, full disclosure, I haven't seen Mary Jane yet. Um, so I really don't know a lot about it, but I know like the reputations.

[15:14] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[15:15] Eila Mell: And I'm sure it's phenomenal.

[15:17] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[15:17] Eila Mell: You know, it's the same kind of thing where it has to put you in that show, in the world of that show. So, you know, sound design is a subtle category. It's hard. A lot of people don't understand what it even is. I was absolutely one of them until I started talking to sound designers and learning about it. So, you know, I'm certainly no expert in sound design, but I feel like I at least have a handle on what it is a little bit more now.

[15:44] Eila Mell: Greyhouse, you know, Tom Gibbons did that, and I feel like he absolutely put you, you know, created a mood of creepiness.

[15:53] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, you actually spent that time feeling like you were inside a haunted house.

[15:57] Eila Mell: Yes. Even when there was not anything happening on stage, those moments of stillness, but just yeah, there was sometimes the absence of sound, but then also the sound itself really put you in that space.

[16:10] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, there was definitely an air of creepiness through the entire show.

[16:14] Eila Mell: Which I would give to the sound designer, also to the director Joe Mantello.

[16:18] Bruce Gotlieb: Absolutely, yeah. They did their job well of just creating a creepy atmosphere for the entire show.

[16:25] Eila Mell: So yeah, which you needed for that show. Uh, if you don't have that, then the show doesn't work.

[16:29] Bruce Gotlieb: Exactly.

[16:29] Eila Mell: So that's really important there. Bruce, why don't you talk about Appropriate, the sound design?

[16:34] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, there was some like a little bit of like ambient noise in between each scene, which I thought was effective. Uh, the cicadas were out to play. They showed up to the party. That was, you know, so the sound design in total for the show itself, like you said, was subtle, but they did have these little pieces that came through to highlight or to elevate the experience um of the theatergoer, right? Like you said, with Greyhouse, you want to feel creepy. So you wanted to feel certain things. Um, and I think Bray Poor and Will Pickens did that effectively with adding just little nuanced sounds to the show.

[17:16] Eila Mell: Yes, the sound was less subtle for this because, as you said, in between scenes, we had obvious sound, right? We heard these cicadas. So absolutely they're doing something with sound here, they're using it to create a mood to, you know, to separate scenes to do a lot of stuff. So that's interesting too. So it is subtle when it's part of the story, and then it's not subtle when it's not meant to be. So, you know, that's an interesting use of sound.

[17:46] Bruce Gotlieb: Um, but now here's the big story for sound, right? The obvious, the showy one this season is Stereophonic, because where does it take place, Bruce?

[17:56] Eila Mell: In a sound booth.

[17:58] Bruce Gotlieb: So you're, you know, you're in a recording studio, you're in a sound booth, two places where sound has to be right. And I think with Stereophonic, if it's not right in and of itself, like you know, we've all read reviews where, you know, somebody's out to see a show and they're writing a review for a publication and they say, "Oh, the sound was off." With Stereophonic, yes, you're at live theater, so could the sound be off? Sure. But when you're when you're taking place, your location is a sound booth, and your location is a recording studio, uh, I don't think it can be. And you're playing live music. So you have, so we're hearing that sound in real time, right? That's live. There's no recordings for that for the music in the show.

[18:43] Bruce Gotlieb: I agree with you guys totally. I mean, Stereophonic, if you don't have outstanding sound design, the show does not have a chance of working.

[18:50] Eila Mell: Right, because it's about the recording of an album.

[18:53] Bruce Gotlieb: So yeah. All right. So do you think Stereophonic is the obvious one or then?

[18:57] Eila Mell: I think you could make a case for Greyhouse or for Appropriate, but I think Stereophonic's gonna take it.

[19:02] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I think this is a very easy conversation. I think it's going to win.

[19:07] Eila Mell: Bruce?

[19:08] Bruce Gotlieb: I agree, same.

[19:09] Eila Mell: Okay. So that, you know, very non-controversial here. We all feel the same way. But what do you want to win, Matt?

[19:16] Matt Stashin: I would probably agree. I would say Stereophonic.

[19:18] Eila Mell: Yeah, me too. I mean, yes, I Greyhouse is sort of I don't know, yeah, is giving me a little bit of pause, but I think Stereophonic just has accomplished so much.

[19:29] Matt Stashin: Agreed.

[19:29] Eila Mell: In sound design for this.

[19:31] Matt Stashin: Yeah, I would agree with that. The only other one that I might, you know, tilt a nod at would be Ja, just because, like you said, they're putting you in this beauty shop, which is a vibe in and of itself, right? Especially, especially just a woman's, a woman's uh salon. If you're in a unisex haircutting like a lemon tree, you're not getting the same vibe as you are.

[19:55] Eila Mell: Yeah, it's no lemon tree, but you also, you know, you also get a sense of the neighborhood, which is also important for that show. So yeah, I mean, if that one, amazing. But I think we all know what where it's going.

[20:10] Bruce Gotlieb: All right, Bruce. What is next?

[20:12] Bruce Gotlieb: We have best choreography.

[20:15] Bruce Gotlieb: So Camille A. Brown, Hell's Kitchen, Annie B. Parson, Here Lies Love, Rick and Jeff Cooperman, The Outsiders, Justin Peck, Illinois, Jesse Robb and Shayna Carroll, Water for Elephants.

[20:32] Matt Stashin: Matt, what are your thoughts on Camille A. Brown?

[20:35] Matt Stashin: I think the dancing in Hell's Kitchen. I mean, all of these are terrific choices. I mean, this is one of those categories where you could have had five completely other shows in there and it would have still made sense. You know, I loved the choreography in Once Upon a One More Time. I loved the choreography in The Wiz. I loved the choreography in The Heart of Rock and Roll. Tommy. I mean, Tommy also. I mean, you could have had five completely different nominees and still have felt everybody was worthy. You know, Camille A. Brown, this could be her time. She's such a talented woman.

[21:07] Eila Mell: 100%.

[21:08] Matt Stashin: And, you know, I feel like she will get a Tony at some point. It could be for this very easily.

[21:15] Eila Mell: It could be, because the choreography in Hell's Kitchen was outstanding.

[21:18] Matt Stashin: And what about the choreography in Here Lies Love?

[21:20] Eila Mell: I loved it.

[21:21] Matt Stashin: Yeah.

[21:22] Eila Mell: I loved it. I mean, honestly, and you know, because we saw the show together, Isla. I loved everything about Here Lies Love.

[21:27] Matt Stashin: I know. That was so much fun. And, you know, there was a lot of choreography because they had to encompass a big space.

[21:35] Eila Mell: So that's a little include the audience.

[21:37] Matt Stashin: Yes. Yes.

[21:38] Eila Mell: And so that is a little bit of a different ask from this job.

[21:44] Bruce Gotlieb: So Bruce, why don't you give us your thoughts on the choreography in The Outsiders?

[21:49] Bruce Gotlieb: I really liked it. It was different. It pushed your traditional dance to another level. Uh, there were some uh acrobatics, there was some I wouldn't even call it modern or contemporary dance. It was just um almost lyrical, but lyrical with the grit and sense of urgency that the story of The Outsiders brings you. So I that was something that I really appreciated in it. I think that it helped tell the story uh in a different way. What I really appreciated about it is that it was so fresh. So there's a rumble in the show, but it's not anything like your West Side Story rumble. You know, this choreography, it's just it's different. It could almost have been in slow motion. And to speak to the rumble and the dancing that happens, not to give anything away, but it happens.

I'm not even gonna say it rains on stage. It pours. There is a downpour, and these actors are dancing their ass off, and the, you know, the fight choreography and everything is so interwoven while being completely drenched.

[22:58] Matt Stashin: Yeah.

[22:59] Bruce Gotlieb: I mean, it was innovative, I thought for sure.

[23:01] Matt Stashin: What about the choreography in Water for Elephants?

[23:06] Matt Stashin: It's interesting because the choreography, I mean, in addition to the traditional choreography itself, which was terrific, you also had all of those like the circus acts and all of that that really was just innovative and astounding, honestly.

[23:20] Eila Mell: Yeah.

[23:21] Matt Stashin: So the circus choreography was the most beautiful part of Water for Elephants, which is a good show. So that's saying a lot. It was just, you know, it takes it's a different skill. That's why there are two choreographers. One is for the circus choreography. It's just it's a beautiful, beautiful show to look at, and the choreography really is the reason why.

[23:44] Eila Mell: Rounding out the category, you have Justin Peck for Illinois that is a dance show. Uh, in all intents and purposes. It's primarily that's that's the medium that they're using to tell the story. So if it wasn't included in this category, uh, I probably wouldn't be opening on Broadway.

[24:03] Matt Stashin: Right.

[24:03] Eila Mell: If it's not gonna get a nod here, then what's the point of it?

[24:07] Bruce Gotlieb: So do we think that Illinois is the clear winner?

[24:10] Matt Stashin: I don't know. What do you think, Matt?

[24:12] Matt Stashin: I don't think it's I think he will, but I'm not entirely sure it's clear, because I think Water for Elephants could surprise everybody.

[24:20] Eila Mell: But you think it will be Illinois.

[24:21] Matt Stashin: I think it will be Illinois. I think it probably should be Illinois.

[24:24] Eila Mell: Okay. Um, yeah, I think it will be Illinois mainly because it is a dance show. So there's there's more dance in it in the other shows.

[24:34] Bruce Gotlieb: So yeah, Bruce, what are you thinking?

[24:36] Bruce Gotlieb: I think the same. I think it's hard to have a dance show and not give it an award, especially a dance show, you know, on Broadway, which is these people are at the top of their craft. So if you're putting on a show and it's a dance show, I gotta think that's what's gonna win. Um, Matt, what is that the same as what you want to win?

[24:59] Matt Stashin: Yeah, I think I'm gonna go with Illinois.

[25:01] Eila Mell: Okay, as you want.

[25:03] Matt Stashin: My want to win isn't on this list, which would be Once Upon a One More Time, because I loved it so much. And I would have been perfectly okay with that. I think the choreography was great, but my of this list of nominees, my want would be the Cooperman Brothers for The Outsiders. I loved it.

[25:18] Bruce Gotlieb: That would be a great way to go.

[25:20] Matt Stashin: I kind of want Water for Elephants. I just think it's so different from what you normally see. And what I liked also was that the circus performers and the dancers in the show, you couldn't tell who was who. So the circus performers could dance, and they trained the dancers to do the circus stuff also. You know, it was very seamless, and it was just a really great effort, I thought.

[25:45] Eila Mell: So that's where I'm going on that one. Let's take a minute to hear a word from our sponsors.

[25:55] Bruce Gotlieb: Next category to dive into is best orchestrations.

[26:01] Bruce Gotlieb: So the nominees are Timo Andres for Illinois, Will Butler and Justin Craig, Stereophonic, Justin Levine, Matt Hinckley, and Jamestown Revival for The Outsiders, Tom Kitt and Adam Blackstone, Hell's Kitchen, Jonathan Tunick, Merrily We Roll Along.

[26:23] Eila Mell: So let's get right into it. Illinois, uh, Timo Andres orchestration. It's a dance show, so obviously music is super important. Aside from that, I personally haven't seen the show. I would love to have the opportunity to get there before Tony Time rolls around. I don't know whether I will. Um, but obviously the importance of orchestration is paramount because you don't have, you know, lyrics to drive a story, it's being driven by the dance, which is obviously relying heavily on the music.

[26:55] Bruce Gotlieb: After that, we have stereophonic orchestration, and it's a play that's, you know, kind of wrapped up in all these other musicals. So what do you think?

[27:04] Matt Stashin: I wish I could say I knew more about how orchestrations work to be able to like intelligently discuss the five nominees. I mean, I can definitely appreciate the work they did on stereophonic because it was, they absolutely captured the feel of the 70s rock music perfectly.

[27:20] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I mean, it's unusual for a straight play to be in the orchestrations category for sure. So Bruce, tell us what Tom Kitt told us about orchestrations.

[27:31] Matt Stashin: The one thing I felt that was interesting when we did chat with him is that you're taking, you know, for in his scenario when he was working on the story came from his working on Jagged Little Pill, that you're taking somebody whose work, whose music is well known. And similarly with Hell's Kitchen, Alicia Keys' music, and you're, you know, kind of not twisting it, but you're just rearranging it a little bit to help tell this story and to put you in that mood, in that scene. So it has to take on a different life. And you know, luckily for, you know, not that theater goers don't know who Alicia Keys is, but if you're taking someone who maybe isn't of the same fan base, now you're opening up somebody else to fall in love with a song in a different way.

And I think that that's really, it's really kind of cool to hear your song, possibly that you've never heard of that can move you in the same way a song that maybe you heard of before that didn't resonate now is resonating different just because maybe there's a tempo change, maybe there's a gradual build, maybe, you know, there's just different ways to highlight a piece of music. The instruments that you're assigning to the music, you know.

[28:46] Bruce Gotlieb: I mean, that's interesting in itself. You know, we're very glad that Tom Kitt is nominated along with Adam Blackstone. That's a great nomination for Hell's Kitchen. And what about the music for The Outsiders?

[28:56] Matt Stashin: I mean, for me, the orchestrations for The Outsiders were wonderful. It really, you know, again, helped tell that story, helped put you in that place, that time.

[29:08] Bruce Gotlieb: So I'm big on The Outsiders.

[29:10] Matt Stashin: I am too, and it gave you, it was a vibe, right? It was putting you there and it was giving you the same feeling as it should that the lighting or that the set, all of these other non-acting characters, I'll call them.

[29:27] Bruce Gotlieb: Right. Right? You know, you have a character up on stage that's gonna inform you through either song or through an acting, a monologue, what have you. This is doing it in and of itself, and it's creating an atmosphere.

[29:41] Matt Stashin: Right. It's bringing the pages of this classic book that I certainly love and I know many people love. You're just bringing music to it, and you know, what a beautiful thing to get to do. What else is in this category?

[29:52] Bruce Gotlieb: Uh, Merrily.

[29:54] Matt Stashin: Merrily, well, I mean, that has a newcomer, Jonathan Tunick.

[29:58] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh yes, we've never heard of him before.

[29:59] Matt Stashin: Never. I mean, so Jonathan Tunick is the very first Tony winner of the orchestrations category. I know Steven Sondheim was a big proponent that there needed to be a category for orchestrations and there finally it was and he got the first one. They were longtime collaborators. Jonathan Tunick is the veteran of this group and he certainly would be a worthy recipient given the award.

[30:27] Bruce Gotlieb: He definitely knows what he's doing.

[30:29] Matt Stashin: Absolutely, and the music is different in this Merrily than it was in other versions. So it's not like he just plugged in the same old same old, you know, obviously he is very talented.

[30:41] Bruce Gotlieb: I think I agree with everything you're saying. I think that almost he's the one to beat because of his history, you know, like you're going up against, you know, someone who's like the world champion and it's like everyone else while they're, you know, so richly talented in their own right, you're going against somebody again like you said that to win the first ever, you know, how do you, how do you, you can't discount that.

[30:43] Matt Stashin: So Matt, yes, let's get down to it. Who do you think will win? Who's the winner?

[30:43] Matt Stashin: As much as I do think Jonathan Tunick is deserving, I actually think in this case it's going to be Hell's Kitchen. I think taking very familiar music, putting that musical theater, not necessarily musical theater spin on it, but making Alicia Keys's music work for musical theater.

[31:32] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[31:32] Matt Stashin: Is an accomplishment.

[31:34] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay.

[31:34] Matt Stashin: I think it's gonna be Illinois. I'm gonna go there. I think, you know, there was a lot to do there, and that's my pick.

[31:42] Bruce Gotlieb: What do you think, Bruce?

[31:43] Bruce Gotlieb: I think that's an interesting perspective because you require so much more of the music in that show. I think it's gonna be Jonathan Tunick. I think he's gonna continue along his merrily little way.

[31:58] Matt Stashin: Um, so is your prediction your want, Matt?

[32:03] Matt Stashin: Of these five, yes. I would have loved to have seen Tommy get in here, though, if I'm being perfectly honest.

[32:09] Bruce Gotlieb: Okay.

[32:09] Matt Stashin: I think for the same reason that I'm choosing Hell's Kitchen, taking this very familiar music and changing it up.

[32:16] Bruce Gotlieb: Sure.

[32:17] Matt Stashin: My want of these nominees, I think, is The Outsiders. I love the way it helped tell the story. And of the newer shows that we're talking about, I think that kind of stayed with me the most. I'm gonna root for Tom Kitt and Adam Blackstone for Hell's Kitchen.

[32:34] Bruce Gotlieb: All right, Bruce. Next.

[32:36] Bruce Gotlieb: And is it next and final? Our next and, as Eila said, final is featured actor in a musical. And the nominees for that are Roger Bart for Back to the Future, Joshua Boone, The Outsiders, Brandon Victor Dixon, Hell's Kitchen, Sky Lakota Lynch, The Outsiders, Daniel Radcliff, Merrily We Roll Along, and Steven Skybell for Cabaret.

[33:05] Matt Stashin: So starting with Roger Bart, who obviously Back to the Future's still running, but opened so long ago in Tony season. So I know some of the conversation surrounding Back to the Future and some other shows. Obviously, it helps that Back to the Future is still running, but there's so many new shows that opened over the span of like two weeks recently that it's almost, it feels like it was last season that Back to the Future opened because it was so long ago. What are your thoughts on Roger Bart in this category?

[33:39] Bruce Gotlieb: I was a little bit surprised he got nominated, but I'm not really disappointed he got nominated. He takes what Christopher Lloyd started and then kind of does his own spin on it, which you'd have to do. You have to make it your own.

[33:51] Matt Stashin: Exactly. So I definitely think he's a worthy nominee. I'm not gonna lie, I'm surprised. I was that he got nominated. Very surprised. My jaw dropped. I did not expect him to get nominated.

[34:00] Bruce Gotlieb: I agree with you, I was shocked that he was there. Somebody that, I mean, you could plug and play, like we've been saying this whole Tony season is a lot of that. The one person who I thought that might have, I don't think that he would have won. I could have seen Justin Guarini in there as somebody that could have put in that same spot that did a lot with what they were given.

[34:23] Matt Stashin: Yeah, I believe they had him pegged as a lead though.

[34:26] Bruce Gotlieb: They did, and that's so I think he would have had a better shot getting in a supporting and I think the role really was supportive. Cinderella was the lead role in that show. And Justin was great. He was hysterical. You know, I don't know that he would get in with this category for a show so early, the first musical of the season, and long close, so that's really hard to get notice for that. But you know, his work was certainly very good. You could say the same for somebody like Conrad Ricamora for Here Lies Love.

[34:59] Matt Stashin: Yeah.

[35:00] Bruce Gotlieb: I thought he gave a phenomenal performance. I mean, that's shocking that he's not in this list.

[35:05] Matt Stashin: I really thought that's a surprise. I thought he had a very strong, I actually thought he was a shoe-in to get a nomination.

[35:12] Bruce Gotlieb: I agree with you. I thought he was as well. So then next up we have Joshua Boone for The Outsiders. And you know, then the question that we've been kind of going back and forth in our own discussions and on here is when you have shows that have double nominees. Because you have both him and Sky Lakota Lynch for The Outsiders that are both up for feature. Do they cancel each other out?

[35:31] Matt Stashin: I think in this case, they unfortunately do. Joshua Boone is great as Dallas. He has a great song at the end of the show. I mean, he's really outstanding. I'm very glad he got nominated. I'm glad The Outsiders is getting attention because I love the show. But yeah, I think as good as he and Sky Lakota Lynch are, their roles are very similar in size.

[35:56] Bruce Gotlieb: Sure.

[35:56] Matt Stashin: And in what they're asked to do. So I do think they cancel each other out. And then you have Brandon Victor Dixon in the conversation for Hell's Kitchen. Now don't underestimate him. He is such a talented performer.

[36:10] Bruce Gotlieb: He really is.

[36:11] Matt Stashin: Oh, so you know, he could do it. I mean, I don't know that he has the buzz that someone else in this category does, who seems to be the obvious choice who we'll get to. But if he got it, it would not be disappointing.

[36:26] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, he has very limited stage time in Hell's Kitchen, but he makes the most of every single second that he has.

[36:34] Matt Stashin: Yeah, but you know, that could be a detriment, but not necessarily.

[36:37] Bruce Gotlieb: No, sometimes that is what you remember.

[36:40] Matt Stashin: The Oscars love that.

[36:41] Bruce Gotlieb: Absolutely. Judy Dunch won for what, eight minutes?

[36:43] Matt Stashin: I don't even know if it was that much.

[36:45] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, right. So you never know. But I think we all know that Daniel Radcliff is the favorite to win right now.

[36:53] Matt Stashin: Agreed. I mean, that buzz started off Broadway and it hasn't slowed down any. And Merrily is just this juggernaut.

[37:01] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[37:01] Matt Stashin: It's the first successful production of the show. Everybody's excited about it. Everybody loves it. Everybody loves Sondheim. There's so much going for it. I don't know that you can stop Daniel Radcliff or anybody involved with Merrily.

[37:14] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[37:15] Matt Stashin: I definitely think he's the one to beat right now.

[37:18] Bruce Gotlieb: Oh yeah. Plus, you know, star power goes a long way too in these things, unfortunately, because I don't think it should be based on that, but I think that does play a role.

[37:29] Matt Stashin: What do you guys think?

[37:30] Bruce Gotlieb: I think I'd agree with that statement. I think that I hate to say it, it behooves the Tony Awards to have name recognition. And not that any of these, you know, people on this list aren't, but they're recognizable in the community. And when you can get recognition outside and stretch your fan base a little bit, it only serves the Tony's purpose, and it only brings more people to the theater. And more people coming and going to the theater keeps theater alive, and that's what we all want. And what's not gonna hurt is that he actually is wonderful as Charlie. And it's a role that people love. It's a lovable character. And it really is such a performance. So if he got it, it would be well deserved.

[38:15] Matt Stashin: Yeah.

[38:16] Bruce Gotlieb: Matt, what do you think about Steven Skybell and his buzz for Cabaret?

[38:20] Matt Stashin: He has a ton of it. And this is if there's one character you walk out of Cabaret having empathy for and like feeling for, it is Herr Schultz.

[38:30] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[38:30] Matt Stashin: It's such a, he's a good guy. He really is. Some not very nice people.

[38:33] Bruce Gotlieb: Absolutely.

[38:34] Matt Stashin: Because I mean, as much as everyone loves Sally Bowles, she's not always a likable person.

[38:38] Bruce Gotlieb: No.

[38:39] Matt Stashin: As much as you, you know, you feel for Cliff, he doesn't always make the best choices in his life.

[38:43] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah.

[38:43] Matt Stashin: Herr Schultz is just this good person trying to survive in this world.

[38:47] Bruce Gotlieb: Right.

[38:48] Matt Stashin: Yeah, at a very difficult time in history.

[38:51] Bruce Gotlieb: Absolutely.

[38:52] Matt Stashin: So yeah, you know, were you surprised that he got nominated, Bruce?

[38:56] Bruce Gotlieb: I wouldn't say I was surprised. I wouldn't say I was surprised at all. I think it is, like you said, likable. It's a likable character. Everyone, you know, everyone does. It's a sweet character, you know. So I wasn't surprised.

[39:10] Matt Stashin: Yes.

[39:12] Bruce Gotlieb: Feet to the fire. Who's gonna win?

[39:14] Matt Stashin: I wish I had, is there even a conversation? Harry Potter's winning a Tony.

[39:18] Bruce Gotlieb: Yeah, I mean, do why even have this debate?

[39:21] Matt Stashin: And I think we should, yeah.

[39:23] Bruce Gotlieb: Um, should he?

[39:25] Matt Stashin: Yeah, I think he should. And I think I, yes, I think he should, and I think I want him to.

[39:32] Bruce Gotlieb: I agree.

[39:33] Matt Stashin: I would agree with that. I just don't, I would be shocked if it went any other way. I think that would be the conversation. If it goes any other way, I think that's it. Again, nothing against the other people in the category. They all did a wonderful job. It's just his performance was that outstanding in a production that people are loving.

[39:50] Bruce Gotlieb: Absolutely.

[39:52] Matt Stashin: So that combination is very unbeatable. And that puts a wrap on this week's episode, Eila.

[39:58] Bruce Gotlieb: Well, we've said it all.

[40:00] Matt Stashin: And then some.

[40:01] Bruce Gotlieb: And then some. And we'll say more next week when we bring you some more categories. We're gonna have a lot of opinions next week too. Matt will be back with us, and we will see you next time on Behind the Awards.

[40:12] Matt Stashin: Bye bye.