This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Robert W. Schneider: Dear friends, we are so sorry about the ads. They are a nightmare in every way, but with your donations, we can get rid of ads someday.

[0:09] Kevin David Thomas: Beautiful Kevin.

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[1:24] Kevin David Thomas: Thank you.

[1:26] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, I'm Robert W. Schneider.

[1:28] Kevin David Thomas: And I'm Kevin David Thomas.

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[1:46] Kevin David Thomas: Now, if you are a male actor who grew up after 1988, then the man we are speaking to today most likely inspired you to get on stage. See, no matter what school you attended or where you grew up, there was a day your drama teacher put on the VHS cassette of Into the Woods. And in all of his charming neurotic glory, was today's guest. His acting choices did define a whole new generation, yes, but it wasn't just his work in Into the Woods that inspired us. Oh no. There was Falsettos, Grand Hotel, The Boys from Syracuse, which I saw and loved. It should have been you in trousers, A New Brain, The Miser Rob, which we did together. Isn't it romantic? Plus countless television and movie appearances, including being the voice of Howard the Duck.

Ooh, that alone, my God. Now, to tell us what it was like to work with such legends as Stephen Sondheim, Wendy Wasserstein, Bill Finn, Mike Nichols, Cleavon Little, Dustin Hoffman, and countless others, here is someone we all wish we could be when we grew up, CHIP ZIEN.

[2:44] CHIP ZIEN: Well, that was so much fun. You guys, I need you just to follow me around all day long. I've never felt better about myself than I do right now. But I mean, do you know that so many people got into this business because they saw you doing what you do so brilliantly?

[3:01] CHIP ZIEN: Well, I wish I had somehow absorbed that a little more at the time that I was in those shows that you talked about. No, I, yeah, it's been gratifying to a certain extent. I mean, when I was doing Into the Woods, and then we filmed it for Great Performances, I mean, the life of it was amazing. And I, through the years after Great Performances was on, I would get tapes of kids all over the country would send me VHS tapes of their performance in Into the Woods.

[3:43] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, how cool.

[3:44] CHIP ZIEN: But it was kind of, it was sometimes alarming because I picked up from them what I looked like to them. The caricature of what they, and basically I looked like this little sort of hunched over troll who was like completely freaked out and nervous, and you know, so it was really a funny thing to see that.

[4:05] Kevin David Thomas: So how did a guy from Whitefish Bay discover theater?

[4:08] CHIP ZIEN: Well, you know, well here's the thing. I was a boy soprano. I sung as a young boy.

[4:14] Kevin David Thomas: Were you really?

[4:17] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah, and when shows came into New York, well, let me put it this way: as much as you could have a stage mother in Milwaukee, which was, you know, there weren't that many opportunities, but as much as you could, my mother was that person, and they were basically, my mom and dad were basically somewhat concerned that I was gonna be short and that I wouldn't have a hobby. And I fooled them. I don't ever remember not singing. In fact, somewhere along the line, my sister, who was four years older than I am, for her birthday when she was probably like 11 or, you know, I don't know, somewhere in there, she got a record recording of Oklahoma as her birthday present. And years, you know, not actually, not too long ago, I discovered some letters that my mother had written to my uncle, her brother.

And in those letters, it was very moving. She said, you know, so Barbie didn't really care for that record. The recording was from my uncle of Oklahoma, and he said, my sister's name is Barbie. We were Barbie and Chip, which is odd because, you know, basically two Jews from the Midwest. Like, who were we? You know, I mean, it's like Barbie doll and Chip Bob. I don't know. So, but at any rate, in this letter from my mother to my uncle was a description that my sister hadn't really paid any attention to that recording, but Chip knew every word of every song.

[5:46] Kevin David Thomas: Huh.

[5:46] CHIP ZIEN: Which I didn't remember, you know, I didn't know. And I didn't remember that. But so I guess I must have had some sort of, I don't remember not being able to sing. So when did singing morph into musical theater performance acting?

[6:03] CHIP ZIEN: So then, you know, in my sort of mid-teenage years, I, you know, as I was saying, it kind of embarrassed me. And, you know, I went out eventually because you had this talent.

[6:15] CHIP ZIEN: Well, I just thought like it was like, you know, I remember my parents driving me to an oratorio that I had to perform in with the University of Wisconsin at this. And, you know, sitting in between my mom and dad in the front seat of our car, and like I'm going like I don't even want to talk about the fact that I'm like sing, I can sing higher than anybody I've ever known, and I'm going to sing in this oratorio, and my voice is so high.

[6:39] Kevin David Thomas: But you weren't teased for this, were you? Did kids make fun of you?

[6:41] CHIP ZIEN: Well, a lot of my kids didn't, they didn't really know about, you know, they weren't, they didn't know it was like having to, but then eventually what happened was that I went to camp. And at camp, I played all the famous leading women's roles. I mean, I played Lola in Damn Yankees, and I played Annie in Annie Get Your Gun, and then my mom called up and she said, you know, we're sending him to camp. Is there any chance that he could, you know, play a guy?

[7:12] Kevin David Thomas: And you were a stunning Lola.

[7:15] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah, I was an amazing Lola, and to this day, I mean, I played Eliza in My Fair Lady. I mean, I still use that accent whenever I can. That's how I learned this really bad Cockney accent because I was 12 years old playing Eliza Doolittle. Anyway, so I went, but you know, again, you know, that was cool. I was the lead in the show at camp, and eventually I got to play Harold Hill and other stuff.

[7:38] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[7:38] CHIP ZIEN: But, you know, I went out east to school and basically I was in pre-law. I thought I'd be a lawyer.

[7:45] Kevin David Thomas: The University of Pennsylvania.

[7:46] CHIP ZIEN: University of Pennsylvania, and but I was also chairman of the Mask and Wig Club, which is about this, you know, ancient tradition-bound all-male drama.

[7:57] Kevin David Thomas: The oldest comedy club in the country, I believe.

[7:58] CHIP ZIEN: Yes, it's the oldest in the country. And loved it, you know, and we thought of ourselves as being like a professional troupe of actors. We didn't, you know, and so there I was in pre-law, basically a history major, and then I was the chairman of the Mask and Wig Club, and basically what happened is that Vietnam interfered. I had been accepted at law schools, and I was gonna get drafted if I didn't do something that could, you know, I could for which I could get a deferment. So I ended up teaching school, taught school for one year. And I taught sixth grade, you know, 32 kids in a contained classroom. And at the same time, I was getting a master's degree in teaching certification. And you, it was, you know, so eventually the lottery system came into effect.

But then my path had been sort of broken of just immediately going to law school. I thought I'd take some time off, and my sister was running a theater, my stepsister was running a theater in Chicago, and somebody got sick and she, you know, she had known me and knew that I could sing, and she said, you know, can you come down here and fill in for this guy who's left our company? And then that theater burned down, and I ended up in New York, and that's how I became an actor.

[9:22] Kevin David Thomas: Well, thanks to the simple path.

[9:26] CHIP ZIEN: Nothing to it, nothing to it. Just follow your dreams.

[9:28] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, yeah. So, but you were performing, you know, and cultivating because you had the Mask and Wig, and it seems like you were an astute lawyerly student.

[9:29] CHIP ZIEN: I was on the very more left brain or the right brain side.

[9:42] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, well, I, you know, I really, I was a serious student. I mean, I worked hard and got, you know, good grades, and I got into really good law schools, and one by one, they, I didn't go. So one by one, they would, in subsequent years, they would drop out, and they would, you know. But my last, my safety valve law school was the University of Wisconsin, and they had accepted me five years in a row. And at this point, I'd been in New York for five years. I'd done some other shows, and You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown, where I got my equity, all these other shows, and I reapplied to law school, and it was five years after I had been acting in New York, but they wrote me a letter, which I have, which is that we've begun to doubt your sincerity. Dear Mr. Zien, we have begun to doubt your sincerity, and if you in fact want to pursue a career in the law, you have to show up in person and explain to us where you've been.

[10:41] Kevin David Thomas: Oh my goodness.

[10:41] CHIP ZIEN: So that was it. And that was the moment when I decided that I'm not going to law school.

[10:45] Kevin David Thomas: So you go to Chicago, and the theater burns down, you said.

[10:49] CHIP ZIEN: That's right. The theater, we went Sunday after we were living at the theater. It was like a resident repertory theater with actually people from the University of Wisconsin and me, who was not from there. And not from that school. And we went to a movie Sunday afternoon, came back, and the place was on fire, and our clothes, everything was in this lodge above the theater. We lived there. We were just a bunch of kids, you know, having a good time in West Dundee, Illinois. The Chateau Louise.

[11:20] Kevin David Thomas: The Chateau Louise in West Dundee, Illinois.

[11:22] CHIP ZIEN: And we did, you know, amazing shows there like John Dos Passos, USA and, you know, heavy-duty things, but also like, you know, stop the world and musicals and musical reviews and serious drama and, I don't know. But that burned down. Were you auditioning for any other theater in Chicago at this time, or you were just pretty much married to this company?

[11:43] CHIP ZIEN: I had one audition that I did do in Chicago, but I auditioned for Hair.

[11:49] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, so what is this?

[11:51] CHIP ZIEN: This is nine, this is like 1970, 71. I auditioned for Hair, and I was told that I got in, but it ends up being a scam. It evidently, every city they went to, they auditioned local talent, and they would tell them that they're in. I made the mistake of actually when the theater burned down of going into the Hair office that was still in New York at the time, or it had companies out around the country. And I said, you know, hey, I'm in Hair. I was, you know, I auditioned in Chicago, and I was told I'm in. I'm in Hair. And they said, you know, not only do we not know you, we have no record of that there were auditions in Chicago. So there's the doors. That was an eye-opener.

[12:36] Kevin David Thomas: That was an eye.

[12:38] CHIP ZIEN: That was an eye. That was the only thing I auditioned for. You came to New York then, and then you, other people had maybe gone to school for theater, or maybe had, how did you know what to do?

[12:47] CHIP ZIEN: Well, I didn't, well, that's really a good question because I didn't know what to do. Right. I stayed on, you know, guys that I'd gone to Penn with. I basically borrowed couches and I was staying with them. And, you know, fraternity, I was in a fraternity, and one of them had a really close friend who was a commercial agent in New York at the time, and he was dating her, and she lived above him, and she came down and he said, you gotta meet, you know, you're just, you gotta get off my couch.

[13:22] CHIP ZIEN: But the woman that I'm dating is upstairs, and she'll come down and tell you to go back to Milwaukee. So he brought her down and she said, Yeah, you really don't look like an actor. She said, like, there's no hope. She said, What does your dad do? Well, my dad was in a plumbing business with his brothers, and she said, Good, go back. Go back because you are not you do not look like an actor to me. And she became one of my dearest and closest friends and my first agent. And she called me a couple days later. She said, Okay, this is insane, but like you fit the description of this character for this Planters peanut commercial. And she said, So you're gonna go, you're gonna make a complete fool out of yourself, pretend like you know what you're doing, and then I'll then I'm off the hook.

I don't have to do anything else for you. And I got it. I booked it. I booked it, yeah. I booked it. And it was like ridiculous. And then a couple weeks later I booked Charlie Brown. I saw I was into peanuts. I was basically there's some cosmic thing about peanuts. And that was your equity card was doing your Good Man Charlie Brown. Yeah, so I mean I was phenomenally lucky because in between that commercial and getting Charlie Brown, I was selling shoes at a store called Fred Braun Shoe Stores, which were in Midtown Manhattan. There's a chain of them, if you're old enough to remember. There was a little boutique. I sold shoes, I sold boots to Angela Lansbury, and I remember thinking, this like okay, I can go back to Milwaukee now.

I've just met Angela Lansbury. We're pals. You know, we're total friends, and I sold her boots and it's all good. It's good. I can go home. So um, but I closed that store at the uh, there was an audition for Charlie Brown, and I just thought, well, I'll take a chance. It's at the Booth Theater, and I was like on 50th Street in Broadway at this boutique shoe store, and I uh, there's one I was the only it's just me and the store. And I closed it, locked it up, put a sign, I'll be back after lunch. Oh my god. Ran to the Booth, and I said, like, you know, hey, I'm here. And they said, Well, these are callbacks. I mean, like, this isn't just show up. And I said, Well, I was told to be here, totally lying.

I said, I you know, they called me. I was I was told to be here. And somebody said, but this is early. This the in a way the earlier days in my time are so much easier than it is now. Yeah. You know, nobody there, you know, we didn't have conservatories. Juilliard didn't exist yet. I mean, there was Carnegie Mellon had the act, but you know, there weren't, you know, people, it was much looser, and people were. I mean, I was completely unprepared, really. And I walked, so I so they said, Yeah, well, it must be some mistake, but you know, you look right, and if we have time, we'll bring you out here. But you know, it's kind of weird, but so eventually, you know, I waited and they called me out on stage.

And I had nothing. I mean, I didn't know like what song do you know. You didn't have any music. I didn't have anything. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't have any chip. Taking chances. I didn't know what I would no, I had no idea. So there was a young woman standing there who was auditioning, and I said, Do you have any music with you? And she said to me, she's from Texas. She said, you know, we sort of prepare for these auditions, you know, and I I don't just hand out my music because I've worked with a coach and it's all marked up for me. And I said, Well, I won't I won't write on it. And I walked out, so she gave me her music, and in it was gonna build a mountain. You know, Anthony Newley gonna build a mountain, and I knew that song.

Which I knew, and I handed it to the piano player, and she said, Well, um, this is a weird key, you know, because it was for a female. And I said, Well, yeah, I mean, just uh, you know, what play the key that it's actually written in. And but the funny part about that was is that I didn't I thought she was testing me. I thought see, I didn't even know like what you do when you show up in audition. So I walk out on the stage of the Booth, which was really exciting. Yeah, on Broadway. I'm on Broadway. Like, you know, who knew? I've walked into the stage door of a Broadway theater, and this is the coolest, this is the coolest thing in the world. I walk out there, I face she's the pianos on stage.

I face her, the audience, if you can out there in Radio Land. Yeah, the I'm not facing the audience. I'm facing, you know, offstage in the wings. Yeah, downstage left. I'm facing to the left, with my, you know, sideways to the audience. And then it was the key was clearly too low. She started to transpose it, and I thought, well, she's testing my ear, you know. So I was just kind of I said, like, man, you're a phenomenal piano player. Like, I can't believe you can change the key like that, you know. And I finished singing the song, and then out of the darkness, Pat Birch, Joe Hardy, the original directors of this the last production of Charlie Brown that the original people did. And Joe Hardy, who was the director, came walking down the aisle laughing.

He said, like, okay, that was ridiculous. Okay, he said, like, I don't know who you are, I don't know why you're here, I don't know what's going on. He said, But here's a script. There's a character called Snoopy. Under the word Snoopy, there's a bunch of lines. Those will be the lines that you're about to read for me. Go off stage and look at it, and I got anyway. I got the part. And you did. I got the part. They hired me. And that young woman who gave me the music, Nancy Fox was her name, is her name. And she was cast as Patty. And we've been very close friends ever since. Like, one of my best oldest minds, but maybe like the first person I met in New York, and we're like still really close friends.

This is the best audition story. Yeah, we've heard epically like don't do this kind of thing. Right, but it couldn't happen now. I don't think it just wouldn't happen now. There's too many rules, the equity's much tougher. You know, I mean, I walked in with nothing. Nothing. No callback, no nothing. Meanwhile, that store stayed closed for a while. Then I'll be back. Well, that the end of it. Okay, footnote to that story. But these are too long. I don't know. No, not really. But the footnote to that story is that I went back running back to the shoe store. Because now it's like, you know, two o'clock in the afternoon. I've closed the store for a couple hours. And I run back there, and the owner of the chain is there.

And he goes, like, what the hell, Zion? What the hell are you doing? You closed the store. I said, Yeah. He said, It's the busiest our noon hour. That's when we do business. What are you doing? I said, I, you know, I had an appointment and I remember I didn't think it would, you know. He said, wait a minute, wait a minute. You're not an actor, are you? Did you have a wait a minute? Were you at an audition? I said, yeah. He said, no, don't. You're gonna go places in the shoe business. He said, we've got plans for you. We've got plans for you. And I anyway, I quit. That was the idea. That was it, yeah. That's amazing. I just picture Angela Lansbury outside with her boots. Yeah, just waiting. Where's Jim?

There's that lovely salesman. Loved her, loved her. So you go and you do your Good Man Charlie Brown off Broadway, correct? No, I do it at the Ford's Theater in Washington, D.C. In DC, okay. And then like the thing is they were gonna bring that company into Broadway. But and so I thought, oh my god, I'm gonna, you know, but it didn't, they didn't take our company because the confusion of having to rehearse a new group. The show went, it did go to Broadway during that time period and lasted for about a week. Right. Oh, okay. Yeah. Didn't work. Right. Or it didn't sell. Yeah. Before we talk more about the Charlie Brown experience. Let me ask you now. No, because I'm fascinated by all of this. I can't imagine what's gonna happen next.

What was the first Broadway show you saw? Do you remember? Very well. Yeah. Yeah. I came on a college tour. My sister was looking at colleges. So she was probably about 15. So I was like, you know, 10 or 11. And I saw Gypsy. And The Miracle Worker on three consecutive days. Oh my god. With the original people. Yeah. Ethel Merman, you know, with the, you know, and at the Sound of Music, I thought like I could be in this. I didn't think that I maybe didn't look right or I was the wrong guy. I thought like, wait a minute. Why I can be in The Sound of Music. And then I see like Patty Duke was like my age, you know. And I'm thinking like I can do that. And then when I saw Gypsy, I thought like my parents had made a terrible mistake.

They had taken me to a strip show and that I was not that somehow I wasn't old enough to be in here in the theater seeing this show where there were strippers. Right. And that I'm horrified, like they're gonna I'm gonna get thrown out. That I was embarrassed. Oh my god. Loved it, but I remember being like, oh my god, oh geez, I hope they don't discover me that I'm in here and I'm I'm not the right age. So those were the first, I mean, isn't that amazing? Those were the first shows I saw. What an introduction. Yeah. All right, so then let's jump back to Charlie Brown now. So what are you what are some of the big takeaway lessons you have from your first professional production? Well, one was that I didn't have a clue what I was doing.

I mean, I was going off of sheer, you know, sort of naivety and energy, and like, you know, I thought I was still in the Mask and Wig show at Penn and what I realized is and then I, you know, I met like actors, like you know, professional actors. And I realized I was a little that I was seriously not trained. And so I le I came back to New York and then eventually checked in with Wynne Hanman, who's still alive and teaching just down the hall here. Oh, really? Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, I mean, and that was really you know, I guess before that maybe I had started out with I went to HB Studios and Austin Pendleton who I loved and have loved through ever since and through all these years. I took his class and then I went to Wynne Hanman.

I just felt like I didn't really know what I was doing, but I was very lucky in those early years because I got work right away. Yeah. And but I felt insecure in my own head that I didn't know exactly what was required of me or what I was supposed to do. And you know, so I the training was helpful. But it was incredibly intuitive of you to know that you needed that acting training, not to just exist on the sheer. Well, I was embarrassed. Yeah, I mean, I felt I found myself being somewhat embarrassed by, you know, I was touchy too, like so like I remember somebody early on. I mean, I you know, if some if it's if a director or somebody told me to, you know, change something, I remember thinking, well, like why?

Why should I? Yeah. I just thought of this. I'm doing this, I'm gonna do this. And that probably stuck with me for many years, if you ask some of the directors I work with. But like, you know, yeah, that's good for somebody else, but I this is how I do it. I'm gonna do it this way. So you know, I was protected in a way by I was cocky, I was new, and it kind of worked at first, and then it seemed like that I needed more training. How do you approach a role? A script comes to you, you know that you're gonna play it. What's that process? Well, one of the things that that I mean, I first of all I read it like a hundred times. For me, when you know, in our class, you know, a lot of people say I have to sort of become that character, I have to be that character.

And one of the things that I learned from Wynne is that we didn't talk, he didn't talk about it that way. He said, you know, you are the character. You have to find within yourself what part of you is that character, not that you have to be somebody completely different. Yeah. And so I see that a lot when I see acting, and you know, there's sort of a rap on musical theater that we're careless about how we approach characters and stuff. And you know, you see it's I mean everybody now is so much better, but um so that's I spent a lot of time like thinking about like, you know, when am I sort of similar to this character? I guess is that sound cheesy? But that's it. So when am I what have I done in my experience that seems to be like this character, not like I'm going to be someone else or or I'm you know, and so I that's it's really that.

I read the show a lot. I sit I have a chair, I like to sit in in my bedroom by a window and a lamp that I like, and I, you know, I read it over and over again, and then I go out there and I'm either terrible or it works out.

[26:25] CHIP ZIEN: I think it works out. You know, I think it works out. Sometimes it works out well, and other times it's not as great as I would like it to be. But you know, that's I think that's what I do. I try to find within myself what seems like that character.

[26:41] Robert W. Schneider: Interesting.

[26:41] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah. Um, and we'll talk some more about some of those characters a little bit later on. Right now, I think it's time to ask about your Broadway debut, yeah, which is Ride the Winds at the no longer existing Bijou Theater.

[26:52] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. How did this come into your orbit?

[26:55] CHIP ZIEN: Well, uh, well, there I you know, I had done Cuckoo's Nest in Philadelphia, and directed by Lee Sankovich. Okay. And uh the next thing I know, Lee is directing a show called Ride the Winds. A musical. A musical is the Bijou Theater about, you know, it's a 15th century parable about samurai swordsmen, and it's a Japanese story written about Musashi, the Japanese somebody, and uh in the 15th century, and uh and I was playing Inari, a Japanese samurai sword master, priest, somebody typecast again, type, you know, naked from the waist up. And um yeah, and I thought, like, oh my god, this is the dumbest.

[27:51] Robert W. Schneider: So you knew, even then, you knew.

[27:54] CHIP ZIEN: Uh I thought like, well, no, I can't say that I actually know. The first inkling I had that it was really terrible was I've told this story before, but it was Danny DeVito. Danny DeVito was cast in this show as a mute person, as a small mute person, and it was an important part in the show. And uh after the table read, like our first day of rehearsals, you know, this is very exciting. Lee gave his speech, and you know, everybody and we said we're gonna read the script, you know, as we always do at those first days or so. And after the reading was over, Danny DeVito took the script and he folded it up and he handed it back to Lee Sankovich. And he said, No, thank you. And left the room. And so, you know, that was it for dead. Years later, I said that that was one of the best things I've ever seen. You know, I've so funny if you think about it. But um it was a complete disaster this show.

[28:52] CHIP ZIEN: Uh we were rehearsing, uh Lee disappeared. There was a guy, Jay Norman, who was the choreographer who was in one of the original companies of West Side Story. Great guy. Jay Norman took over, and uh he said, Look, it's basically every man for himself. And he said, you know, um it was just a complete bomb. The uh John Simon in the New York Times called me Jimmy Durante. He said there was this miserable excuse for Jimmy Durante playing a samurai swordsman, and he said the best thing in the show is the dog that barked on cue in act two. That we had a dog in the show that barked on cue, and John Simon said that was the best thing in the show. That was my Broadway debut.

[29:38] Robert W. Schneider: Wow. Nowhere to go but up, I think, at this point.

[29:41] CHIP ZIEN: So now you've made your Broadway debut.

[29:43] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, what happens next for you?

[29:45] CHIP ZIEN: Well, uh, I've lost track. Uh as you're in seventy-four now. It's a long time ago. Well, I end up getting Charlie Brown. I end up not Charlie Brown, I end up getting Moon. Well, I meet Dustin Hoffman. I run into my wife who was in the New York City Ballet. And we're in a pet shop on Lexington Avenue near Bloomingdale's, that American Kennel place. And uh I was doing How to Succeed in Business at the Equity Library Theater at the time.

[30:12] Robert W. Schneider: Let's talk about the Equity Library for a second.

[30:14] CHIP ZIEN: Uh because it's no longer here anymore.

[30:16] Robert W. Schneider: It should be.

[30:17] CHIP ZIEN: It should be. It was, you know, it was a great, you know, it was my, you know, it was a really important experience for me. Uh I got, you know, cast as Howard, uh was it with Finch. Uh Finch, yeah. What's his name? JP Pip Finch Finstein, I always say in my case. Um so I, you know, and uh um uh opening night, Dustin Hoffman's name is on the guest list. And I literally was sick from it. I thought like this is such a, you know, the Dustin Hoffman is coming and he's gonna see me do this. And uh, you know, I was literally, you know, I was sick to my stomach. I was so nervous.

[30:55] CHIP ZIEN: And um so a couple days later, it was on the, you know, day off of the show, a couple days later we're in this American Kennel pet shop next to Lexington, next to Bloomingdale's and um and he uh you know, my wife was talking to this uh tall, blonde, attractive woman, and the next thing I know there's a shoulder, the hand on my shoulder saying like, uh you're talking to my wife, and like, you know, I turn around, it's Dustin Hoffman. And I felt like, oh my God. Oh my god, this is I can't even believe this. Well, turn his wife at the time, Anne, had been in the New York City Ballet, was good friends with my wife. And so he said, Well, hey, you know, let's let's walk over to our let's go have a drink at my house.

So we walked to his house, and uh I'm walking with him, and my wife is walking with Anne, and he said, Like, what do you do? And I said, Well, uh, you know, I said, I I don't know, I work at night. Uh, you know, I I'm in, I, you know, he said, No, well, what do you do? And I said, Oh, this is really embarrassing. I said, I I'm in a sh I'm in a show at the Equity Library Theater, and I think you were there like last night. And he said, Oh, no, no, no, it wasn't me. It was my partner, Stanley Beck at the time he had this. He said, We're trying to, he said, no, Stanley uses my name to get tickets. Oh, and he said, So I wasn't there, but let's call Stanley. Right, we'll get to our house. We'll call Stanley and we'll see if he liked you or not. And I'm going, like, no, no, no, no, let's just have a glass of wine. I'm going home. Yes, everything's good. Everything's good. You know, let's just go, we're just going.

[32:27] CHIP ZIEN: It's social, it's fine. Don't do anything. And he goes, No, no, no, no, no. We'll call Stanley. So he calls Stanley back, and Stanley, you know, had thought I was okay. And um the next thing that happened is that Dustin Hoffman was directing Oliver Town, written by Marish Iskill on Broadway. And um, I don't know, things had happened in between, but uh at some point I, you know, I'd been in Hotel Baltimore, and um, but there was a one of my best friends was also in Hotel Baltimore, um Zayn Lasky was this actor's name. And uh Dustin Hoffman called me and he said, You know, you write for the lead in this show all over town. He said, like, uh, you know, is it something you'd be interested in doing? I said, like, what are you kidding me? Oh, yeah. He said, Yeah.

[33:16] CHIP ZIEN: And he said, Well, okay, well, I'm having auditions. I think you're right for it. And um, but let's stay in touch. And and uh, well, the next thing I knew, I was doing Moon Children in Boston, and he called me up and he said, Look, you know, he said, I I'm gonna go with Zane Lasky for this part. Well, I I knew Zayn really well, and uh, you know, I was devastated. I hadn't even auditioned, I thought, like, well, so he said, uh, I'm gonna go with Zane. Would you be willing to understudy? And in my mind, I thought, well, yeah, because like, you know, I maybe I'll uh you know, I can I'll get in there somehow. You know, whatever. So uh so that's how I got that. And then eventually Zane left the show and I took the part over. So that was my Broadway debut.

[33:58] Robert W. Schneider: Oh my god.

[33:58] CHIP ZIEN: My real official. I call I call that my official, yeah, that was it.

[34:01] Robert W. Schneider: So what's it like being directed by Dustin Hoffman?

[34:04] CHIP ZIEN: Well, that was crazy. I mean, um, you know, he's been in the press a little bit lately.

[34:10] Robert W. Schneider: Yes, yes.

[34:12] CHIP ZIEN: He's um I mean he was maniacally creative, uh, you know, and and uh but capable, I think I mean he he I l I loved him, yeah, but uh there were indications that have come out recently. I mean he was he could be inappropriate, and and he had a puckish quality about him. So at the time, I you know I I didn't think it was anything more than that, but you know, it was so um you know the well, I mean, like an example of Dustin Hoffman. There was a in this show as a farce, and there were lots of doors on stage, got a typical sort of French farce set up with millions of doors. And at one point, a jewel thief that climbs in through a window and uh has to go past all these doors and go all the way across to the second level of the set and then all the way down the first level and then walk over and grab a phone and cut the phone wire. And uh Dustin, and it just took forever. It was a long path to walk on the set.

[35:10] CHIP ZIEN: And Dustin said, This is so boring. What can we do to make this fun? And he said, you know what? I got an idea. Let's make him blind. I'll never forget that. I thought this was just brilliant, a brilliant comedic touch. He said, Let's make this guy blind. So the guy crawls in the window on the second floor, and Dustin jumps up on stage and shows how to do this. He said, Like, you instead of just walking the this route that you're taking, he said, you're gonna have to feel along the wall and along the banister, because you can't see. He said, You're gonna feel your way all the way from stage right to stage left, down the steps, to stage left to stage right, down the steps, and over to the phone, and it was brilliant. And I remember thinking, see, that's why he's great.

[35:50] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, that's funny.

[35:52] CHIP ZIEN: The blind, the French blind jewel thief. Like it was like perfect. It's incredibly inventive. Like, how did you think of just amazing? And but also, like, you know, at one point he said he was saying to the cast, You you all do you don't respect me. I I can I know Mike Nichols, I can get him in here. You know, and you're thinking, like, it's okay. No, no, we do. It's okay. We like you. And he would run up to me, and I was, you know, depressed because I'm in the back of the theater watching, and he would go, like, this is killing you, isn't it? This is gonna kill you. I said, Yeah, kind of.

[36:21] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, it's rubbing it in.

[36:21] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah. Um, but let me ask you what it was like watching some of these great character actors work. Because I mean, you had Barney Martin and Polly Holiday and Cleveland Little. What's what's this like?

[36:30] CHIP ZIEN: Well, the look, uh, Barney Hughes. Oh, Barnard Hughes, too. Barney Hughes was just, you know, Barney Hughes, you know, seeing these people was just a complete treat. I mean, Barney Hughes was the one of the loveliest guys I've ever met on the planet. And uh, he actually told my dad, my you know, my dad came to see my Broadway debut when I took the part over. And Barney said to him, he said, You know, don't worry about Chip. Chip's gonna be great. He's gonna be, it's okay. He's gonna have he's had he's he's good. It's gonna be okay. All right. And my dad thought, like, because my dad was always saying to me, he said, Like, you know, I saw you do this stuff at camp. What why is this any better?

Why are you any better now? That was sort of my dad's and sadly, my father also said to me, He said, You know, I there's nothing I can do in show business to help you. He said, if you came back to Milwaukee, I could I could open all sorts of doors for you. Here in New York, I'm totally useless.

[37:16] CHIP ZIEN: Barney Hughes had a great thing. He did a that I always loved that I tell stories about was he had a triple take that was just priceless. Like, you know, uh you know, I retained silly little things. But he had a thing where he would do like this just amazing triple take, and end up, it ended up staring at the audience like you know, like what? You know, but it was you know, and it was just genius, you know.

[37:40] Robert W. Schneider: It's great.

[37:40] CHIP ZIEN: It's brilliant. Uh Barney Martin, you know, just a terrific guy. Uh there was a guy, Bill La Messina. Yes, a great actor who could imitate a cow. He did he had this thing where he mooed on stage like a cow. Oh and it just brilliant. I mean, the guy was so funny, you know. And and Clevan Little, just the greatest, nicest man on the planet. He at some point, um, I was still understudying, but Zayn, but my my cohort was it was in the first act, and he went up and he was remembering lines from the the end of the play. And Clevon Little said to himself, stop right there. Stop, don't say another word. And he ran off stage and he got the stage manager's book. This is during the show, and like came on with a script and he said, Here we are, we're on page 15. And the audience was almost a standing ovation. It's one of the funniest things, but he was a really sweet man and and died way too soon.

[38:36] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[38:36] CHIP ZIEN: Just just the you know, it was a great group of people.

[38:40] Robert W. Schneider: It's a great.

[38:41] CHIP ZIEN: I wish I could have seen this.

[38:42] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, wish I could have seen it.

[38:43] CHIP ZIEN: It was really fun. Uh, you know.

[38:44] Robert W. Schneider: And you were also doing a lot of regional work at the same time, right?

[38:48] CHIP ZIEN: Well, not so not not so much. I mean, I I, you know, um, not not really. I mean, I I mean, I took all over town.

[38:58] Robert W. Schneider: We went out of town.

[38:59] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah, yeah. And that that that tour died a miserable death.

[39:03] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, really?

[39:04] CHIP ZIEN: Clobbered. We we by the time we got to Detroit, we did two two cities. We were supposed to be out for a year. We did Chicago and uh Detroit, and then it just was it just fell apart. You know, I it was, you know, I don't know, didn't last.

[39:19] Robert W. Schneider: How does Bill Finn come into your life?

[39:21] CHIP ZIEN: Uh that's that's a good story too. Billy, um about 78, somewhere in there, I'm dry. I'm I've decided that I've got to change my career. I had a bad one my 1978 was the terrible year for me. I couldn't, I didn't find any work. I've been so lucky up to that point, and all of a sudden I thought I'm never gonna work again. 1978. This is so long ago, it's embarrassing. No, but how old are you? So a lot of people can relate to that feeling in their lives. So it's like I, you know, I had been in New York for what seven years or so, and all of a sudden it just I thought I was just over. And um I decided I was gonna go to LA. So I so I um I was literally driving out to Kennedy. I mean, I went to JFK, I was gonna go stay with friends in Los Angeles, and uh when I w went up to uh the American Airlines counter, there was a note for me to call my agent.

What? Yeah, and um I said, Oh God, what's this about? So I called my agent, and um he said, you know, there's this really interesting show at Playwrights Horizons called In Trousers. He said, they're very interested in you for the lead role. And he said, you know, I know you've made this decision to go to LA, and it's a good idea, but is there any way you'd postpone it? I said, but I'm at the airport. Yeah. He said, well, yeah, I know. But he said, you know, I could deliver the, it was on a cassette tape. He said, I can send the cassette over to your apartment. Is there any chance you'd come back and just delay your trip? Wow. And I did. I came back and uh, you know, schlepp my suitcase back and went upstairs and and um listened to this tape.

And I remember just sitting in the kitchen going, like, this is fantastic. I love this. I don't know what this is. I love it. I, you know, and then I went in and to audition. I had to audition. I went in, and this really strange, tall, crazy guy was sitting there, Bill Finn. And uh I started in those days I sang Jackie from Jacques Brel. Oh like a hundred. I also played it on the piano. I could play it on the piano. So I I um I would sometimes accompany myself on the piano, and he and he he was shouting from the back of the room, yeah. Stop it, I hate that song. I've heard it a hundred times. Stop singing that song. And I, you know, and so he said, just stand up and sing happy birthday or something.

And and then I uh eventually I was singing, I think I was singing happy birthday. Put my he said, and put your hands in your pockets. I don't like what your hands are doing. And then he said, uh now stand on the piano. So I was singing some song, like standing on the piano. I thought, okay, you know, this guy, this is crazy. Right. But um, I got the job. Bill was directing it. Oh my god. And um, you know, so and and you know, he had done workshops of it. So I became quickly known that he was big Bill, and I became known as Little Bill. Right. And I was basically playing, uh, and that's that's how we met, and we did In Trousers. That for me, that production of In Trousers, which was dismissed by the New York Times as a show about syphilic sailors, Richard Eder, the critic of the New York Times, hated the show and just ripped it apart.

And I think if Frank Rich had been the critic, he became the critic like a year later. Yeah, yeah. Had he been the critic at the time, I think everything would be different in a in a way. I think. Well, I mean, I don't know what it, you know, how do we know? But I think he might have liked it. It was one of the best things I've ever done, at least in my head. And um, you know, we were it was devastating. We got completely dismissed by the New York Times. And a year or two later, we were doing March of the Falsettos upstairs at Playwrights Horizons, and uh Frank Rich came in and the rest is history. Who was in that uh in Trousers cast with you? Allison, uh Frasier, Mary Testa, and Joanne Green.

And um, you know, they had done a lot of that show with Bill in a like a workshop setting. And Bill would play him. And Bill played himself. And um, you know, there was a lot there was a there was a song called uh, you know, uh Marvin Takes a Shower. There are all these really strange songs. And uh, you know, if Mary and Allison got mad at me, they would put cold water, they they were literally pouring like water on my head and out of like a can uh uh watering can, a sprinkling can you use for flowers, and they were sp sprinkling it on me. And if they were like mad at me for any given reason, any cold shower. They would put really ice cold water in the thing, and and um I I you know I look back at that that was as pivotal a moment in my life as one could ever have.

I mean, I I might never have done it but for a little piece of paper at the check-in desk at American Airlines. You know what I mean? It's like it's like it's really crazy. You know, and then I was devastated after that because eventually, you know, Billy didn't want me to play Marvin. He you know, he they he wrote Mendel for me. And um Why did he want you to stop playing Marvin? Well, his claim, I think he just didn't I don't think I think he well, I don't I don't I don't think he thought I was too small. I mean one of the things he always says is you were too small to play Marvin. Uh I don't know uh that that mattered, but that's what he would say. I think he you know he didn't he just didn't believe me in that as that character and um I never did it again.

You know, at one point they were uh they were doing uh when when second stage came into its existence, they uh I was very good friends with Carol Rothman at that time. And she asked me like what show did I think should have a second shot, and I said in drowsers. I and she said, Yeah, let's let me talk good to get put get me in touch with Bill, let's do it, you know. And I thought I was gonna do it. And um I found out that uh, you know, I thought I was gonna do it, and then I found out that J O Sanders was gonna do it. Oh and Bill Finn said, Well, like, of course he's left. I said, Billy, this is I didn't I make this happen. I think I made this happen, and you've you've you've uh you know abandoned me.

And he said, No, no, you're too small. He said, you know, that's why Jay I want J O to do it, you know, and that's who did it. And I, you know, and then by the way, I didn't talk to Bill for about a year and a half after that. Yeah, it's one of our first uh major arguments. You know one of them can still work with you because he created Mendel. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, stuff happens. I mean, uh uh, you know, b Bill Finn and James Lapine, without them, I have no idea what my life would be. Yeah. You know, and and but we were also like a family. There were moments when we didn't agree with one another. And there were difficult moments. But you know, Le Pine, I mean, you know, uh Finn brought me to Le Pine, and Le Pine said to me when we were doing um March of the Falsettos, he said, I don't really know, you know.

I remember I had to have lunch with him on the Upper West Side. He said, You know, I don't really know you. He said, But Bill really wants you. And uh he said, I don't know, I'd probably have auditions and I'd look at some other people, but if he really wants you, I guess we'll just have you. That's a vote of encouragement. You want to feel I feel so good now. Please I'm not sure. But but you know, he's one of my most important, uh, you know, uh you know, I mean, I love him. I without I don't know what my life would have been. I mean, I you know, and and and you look back on it now and you realize how hard it is to get parts. I mean, I look at younger kids who are auditioning and trying to get some traction in showbiz, and I think like they hired you know, Le Pine hired me and stuck by me.

I mean, then I do Merrilly. Oh, yeah. I did Merrily Roll Along in La Jolla. Right uh for Le Pine, and well, so Le Pine brings me to Sondheim, you know, and uh I get merrily re rolling along and and and uh I'd actually turn down there was at the same time that Merrill was going to California, there was a production of um Sweet Charity that was gonna be on Broadway, and I had got I'd been offered that. And I uh oddly, I was I was offered it on the spot. Uh um uh Bob Fossey directing it, said to me, he said, Look, I don't want to fool around with your agent. I was at the you know, I finished my audition, he said, Look, I I don't want to mess with your agent. He said, But I what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna offer you the job right now.

And if you and I need you to take it right now, otherwise I'll move on. Wow. He said, I'm not gonna wait for anything, uh agents or anybody else. And I said, you know, I I can't do that because you know, I have to talk to my agent or he'll drop me in that relationship. He said, No, no, you're not hearing me. This is by Fossey, you know, and I don't know, you know, right. But what I was holding out for was Merrilly in La Jolla. Right. I thought that was more important that I thought I should work with Sondheim if I have the chance. Yeah, but I didn't know if I had the that part yet. Wild. You know, so I turned down, you know, so I t I turned on Fosse and that, you know, and by the way, you know who got that part was Michael Rupert.

Yeah. Okay, and Michael Rupert won a Tony Award for it, and Michael Rupert came to see me in Merrilly all along in La Jolla, which is where we did it, and he said, I feel so bad for you. This show still doesn't work. He said, he said, it still doesn't work, and I'm gonna win a Tony Award. Yeah. I'm gonna win. I'm gonna win. Oh, and uh and he did. Yes, he did. He did. You know, so but the relationships of the business are. Yeah, well, and again, like you know, Rupert, you know, Bogard is this is really like an extent, like I mean, you know, it sounds corny, but I think of it as family. I mean we were we spent a lot of time working on all the falsetto things, and and Bill Finn and and um and and James and so many experiences together, and they do you know genuinely is sort of part of what I view as my extended family.

Oh yeah. When you were doing March of the Falsettos, was there a sense of is the audience gonna understand what the hell this is? You know, this is something that Bill Finn would, you know, would just scream at me about because I at some point like um I went into Andre Bishop, who so we're at Playwrights Horizons and the old playwrights before it was you know re redesigned. And I went in at some point there's an issue about are we actually gonna open? When did we want when did the actors want to open the show? And should we have the New York Times come in? You know, what did we want to do? And I said, absolutely not. We are not ready to open. The show's barely written. Uh you were tweaking it a lot.

You were Yeah, things were changing, and and uh, but but um you know Finn will never forgive me for this because like you know, so at some point I'm in Andre Bishop's uh office saying, like, no, we cannot open this show. I said, like, you know, look, I I'm an experienced actor. Okay, this show is not ready to open. And and and Andre Bishop's response was Bill Finn was in was in the room, he said, Look, Bill, he's your friend. Deal with him. And they and they opened the, you know, Frank Rich showed up, and the show was a big hit. If they listened to me, you again, who the hell knows? You know, I was dead wrong. I mean, it was like ridiculous. I was completely wrong. But but you know, it was interesting because what when they brought Le Pine in to work with Bill, that that that dynamic uh was an amazing thing.

I mean, uh Le Pine has this sort of laser-like vision. He's very um clear headed and uh knows what he wants, and and you know, music would come in. Bill would be at home writing stuff, and and Le Pine would hold the piece of paper and he'd look at it and he'd go, like, no, no, this is not what I asked for. And he would just crumple it up and throw it away. And and um, and we had cards, we had like index cards on a blackboard. And uh, you know, they would be shifted around, you know, that was the structure of the show and different songs and what order they were, and he would shift them around. This goes here, this goes here, this goes here, this goes here. And we have no way to get to here. And so, you know, he would give Bill these assignments to get it get us from point B to point C. And uh a lot of times uh, you know, he would send them back to rewrite stuff, and and that that collaboration was unbelievable.

I mean, you know, it was you know, it the two of them together were unbelievable. Wish we could have been a fly in the wall for that. Yeah, I mean, it was like it was amazing. Wendy Wasserstein. Yeah. Isn't it romantic? Well, um, so this was a really important show for me, I'll tell you, but for because uh one of the reasons is is that uh I I had been mostly associated with musicals on stage at that point. And now I'm in this play, and uh Jerry Gutierrez directing it, who could be really mean, but but also we've been talking to him. We just talked about him yesterday. Yeah, I mean, he could be really mean, and and um I mean I remember him yelling at me at some point saying, like, what are you doing?

You know, can you do the same thing twice ever, please? You know, oh and I said, like, uh, you know, I but so Wendy and Jerry were very close friends. Wendy I had known because she was part of that playwrights group, and she was like good friends with Bill, and she was always at everything.

[52:32] CHIP ZIEN: I felt like she was a pal, like a friend. And um I was very excited to be cast in that show, and I had a I um and Wendy, the group of playwrights at Playwrights Horizons, there's Peter Parnell, there were other people in that time, Mammoth, not Mammoth, Chris uh uh Durang.

[52:55] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, yeah.

[52:55] CHIP ZIEN: And uh Wendy was in a funny way, was the leader of the pack. I mean, she she advised them, she took notes, they all waited for her opinion, uh to you know, to if they needed to rewrite their shows or whatever was going on. They they really did rely on her. And uh, you know, she was just a lovely, funny, warm-hearted person, and I was really um proud to be in as in Isn't it romantic? And the way in which it changed my life was that it went well for me. I mean, I I I you know I got a whatever, I got a drama desk nomination.

[53:31] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[53:32] CHIP ZIEN: And um Le Pine came backstage and he said to me, I I've never seen you do something like this. This is this is like really important when you know, this is really good acting. I've never seen this.

[53:46] Robert W. Schneider: Wow.

[53:48] CHIP ZIEN: He said, I, you know, and I thought like, well, what was I doing before? I I don't know what you're talking about, but that's what he said, and that led directly to Into the Woods. That that's that's why I don't think I think that had a huge impact on the fact that I ended up in Into the Woods.

[54:03] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, I think it changed his right.

[54:05] CHIP ZIEN: Well, I think he saw me as in a larger capacity than he had thought of me.

[54:09] Robert W. Schneider: Right.

[54:10] CHIP ZIEN: Interesting.

[54:10] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[54:11] CHIP ZIEN: Before I know Kevin's gonna want to ask a lot of questions about Into the Woods, but before we get into that, I have to ask you, it's beyond the purview of our podcast. But would you talk about Howard the Duck?

[54:21] CHIP ZIEN: You know, uh, it's so beyond what we do. Okay, huge. It was like now here's the thing. Here's the thing. I'm doing Merrily, We Roll Along in La Jolla. No, this is fun. Uh I'm doing Merrily, We Roll Along in La Jolla. And uh you know, Merrily, that show, like that was everything. I mean, like you know, playing uh Charlie and you know, and we were supposed to love that show, and we were supposed to come to Broadway. We thought we were coming to Broadway. It was retooled, it was Le Pine now, and we you know I got out of a after we finished the run in La Jolla. I went to have break uh uh to have uh spend a day at Le Pine's summer home.

[54:57] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah, and um we were you know spend the day together in the country, and um I got out of the car and he said, Have you talked to your agent? I said, No, he said, you know, we're not gonna do it. We're not gonna do it. I said, What do you mean we're not gonna do what he said? No, we're we're not gonna do Merrily on Broadway. He said, I just I can't uh this still has problems, we're not gonna do it. And I thought we were gonna do it. And I the my wife said to me, it's the first time I've really understood what it meant when somebody says the color has drained from your face, is drained from your body. I thought, like, oh my god, I gotta spend all day now grilling swordfish, you know. I mean, like and like drinking wine, and like uh what are you talking about?

But by the way, also at that moment, Le Pine took me upstairs, and on his capro little screen old-fashioned portable computer that we had in those days, he had pages of Into the Woods, we're little animals and we're running around in the snow.

[55:50] CHIP ZIEN: And it was an early, early draft of Into the Woods.

[55:54] Robert W. Schneider: Wow, yeah.

[55:55] CHIP ZIEN: But I said to him, I said, look, why why are you fooling our little animals and dwarves and things like uh when we have Merrily? What are you doing? He said, No, no, no, we're moving on. It's like I don't like you know, but Howard, so Howard the Duck. I I went off on a tangent.

[56:08] Kevin David Thomas: Oh no, no, no.

[56:09] CHIP ZIEN: Howard Howard the Duck, um, I'm doing Merrily in La Jolla, and after one of the shows, this person comes back, knocks on my door, she says, She's head of casting for Universal. I said, Oh, you know, I'm yeah, come on in. Tell me how good I am. Just yeah, let's sit down. Talk. She said, You know, I really don't like the show, Merrily. So I don't really get it. She said, but you know, you sound like a duck to me.

[56:32] CHIP ZIEN: And uh, you know, we're doing this show called Howard, this movie called Howard the Duck, and I wondered if you'd be interested in coming in and auditioning. And I said, you know, it's really nice meeting you. It's like, goodbye. You know, thanks. Yeah, thank you, and uh goodbye. And uh I call my age, I said, you know, can you believe this? Some woman came backstage like from Universal and said that they'd like to see me for Howard the Duck. And he goes, My agent goes, Oh my god, you're kidding me. He said, You know what that is? I said, No, I have no idea what that is. He said, It's a cartoon, it's a comic book, and they're turning it into it's a major, you know, George Lucas film, and it's a big deal, and they're seeing everybody in town, and it's a huge job, and you have to go in and audition.

[57:12] CHIP ZIEN: I said, You're kidding. I he said, No, you've got to go in. So I went in, and then I went in about five times. Uh-huh. And then I Merrily closed. I'm back in New York, and then they had me fly out to San Francisco to audition again, and then fly. I auditioned maybe seven times.

[57:28] Kevin David Thomas: Like a voiceover audition, yeah.

[57:30] CHIP ZIEN: You'd you're they'd give you a script. Eventually, what what they would do is they give you little short segments of the film and you would try to loop the film.

[57:37] Robert W. Schneider: Oh.

[57:38] CHIP ZIEN: And uh, and then what happened is is that um uh you know, I found out that I didn't get it, that it was um oh god, come on.

[57:50] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, he's fa so famous.

[57:51] CHIP ZIEN: Uh Robin Williams.

[57:53] Kevin David Thomas: Oh.

[57:53] CHIP ZIEN: Robin Williams got it. And I I thought, like, you know, at one point, like Judd Hirsch was gonna do it, they're offering like hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's like you know, the agent said, You have no idea this is worth a fortune. This is a huge thing. So and I didn't get it. And Robin Williams got it. And then it was what's the late what's the beginning of summer?

[58:12] Kevin David Thomas: Labor Day?

[58:13] CHIP ZIEN: Memorial Day, Labor Day, which is which?

[58:15] Kevin David Thomas: Labor Day.

[58:16] CHIP ZIEN: Memorial Day is in May.

[58:18] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[58:19] CHIP ZIEN: Yes, yes. No, what's in May?

[58:20] Kevin David Thomas: Memorial Day.

[58:21] CHIP ZIEN: Okay, so that's so on Memorial Day. My agent I'm getting phone calls from my agents trying to find me. And uh he said, Look, sit down. You gotta sit down. He said, You gotta get on a plane. You are now Howard the Duck. You gotta get on a plane right now. He said, Um, Robin Williams quit.

[58:38] CHIP ZIEN: And uh and they they want you right away. You're you're it said, you know, have your wife's and clothes out, but you gotta you gotta just go to the airport, get on a plane and go.

[58:51] Kevin David Thomas: Oh my god.

[58:51] CHIP ZIEN: So I did. And um so when I finally saw like a whole reel of the film, I thought like, oh, this is terrible. It looks like uh, you know, a person in a duck bag or something. It's like this can't possibly work. But by the third day, I thought this is the greatest film ever made. This is fantastic. This film, you know, is and also like right off the bat I signed contracts that were you know more money than I'd ever it was like winning the lottery.

[59:22] CHIP ZIEN: I mean there were there uh Howard the Duck was gonna be the spokesman for ATT. There were gonna there were movie sequels, there was merchandising involved. There it was just so much money that it was beyond belief, you know.

[59:36] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, jaw dropping.

[59:37] CHIP ZIEN: And um, so then I I looped the film, it took a couple months and I was there. And then I got in this big, they put me Willard Hyke, Gloria Katz, who wrote this thing, also from Indiana Jones fame. They were like a big deal. And I I I love them. I love them. Willard Hyke, I spent in this enclosed sound stage. You know, we were in this, just it was like it when the you got to the point where like when somebody opened the door and there was like suction in the air, you know, you didn't want any interference while you're like looping this movie.

[1:00:09] CHIP ZIEN: And um, and I had totally bought into it. I thought this is the greatest thing ever made. And uh and when I finally had to leave, they put me in this big stretch limousine, and you know, I rolled down the window to thank them. And and I remember Willard Hyke saying to me, He said, You know, you're Howard the Duck. And I rolled the window up and I thought, yeah, but what if I'm in the Delacourt and I'm doing Shakespeare? That's how neurotic, right?

[1:00:36] CHIP ZIEN: No, no, wait a minute. This is the greatest thing ever. But like Shailog sounds familiar to me. Wait, that I know that voice. What is that voice? And so uh and then the rest is history, it's the biggest disaster ever made of its time. And uh I I saw it, I saw it, you know, all of a sudden there's no screenings. I'm not invited to the opening, nothing, you know. And I go, it opened on 83rd and Broadway, and I and there were like six people in the theater, and and five of them were mothers with little kids.

[1:01:04] CHIP ZIEN: Oh and um I went up to them and I said, You know, this is not so good for little kids. Okay, this is scary, there's scary stuff. And then they would say, How do you know? I said, Well, I you know, I I I've seen it. I you know anyway. So that's my that's what happened. And and uh yeah, I mean, you know, uh it it was That's the story.

[1:01:24] Kevin David Thomas: It's a cult favorite of people.

[1:01:26] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah, yeah, it really is. A lot of there are young men of a certain generation who grew up on that film, one of whom is my son-in-law, who uh one day said to me, uh, we were pretty drunk, and he said, he said, Wow, I think wait a minute. And he realized I was the voice of Howard the Duck.

[1:01:44] Kevin David Thomas: He never knew.

[1:01:47] CHIP ZIEN: That's cool.

[1:01:48] Kevin David Thomas: Jack Pa. You're the coolest father in law there is.

[1:01:50] CHIP ZIEN: Wow.

[1:01:51] Kevin David Thomas: You were Howard the Duck.

[1:01:52] CHIP ZIEN: So that's the one. So getting back to Into the Woods then. Um that was a nice intermission of your stage. Um did you have to audition? I mean, I'm sure you didn't, but this was a you were carrying the show, basically.

[1:02:05] CHIP ZIEN: Well, yeah, well, um, Into the Woods. Uh the I did a reading of it. Although Le Pine denies this, but he's wrong. I did a reading of it where I played uh Cinderella's Prince.

[1:02:19] Kevin David Thomas: Oh.

[1:02:19] CHIP ZIEN: And uh I I was fantastic. Uh but Le Pine came up to me afterwards. He said, like, well, what were you doing? I she said, it's not it's not really a Monty Python sketch. I said I said, Well, I was killing, I killed it. You know, I crushed it. I was fantastic.

[1:02:34] CHIP ZIEN: He said, No, it's terrible. Anyway, um, and a wonderful actor for that reading, Ray Gill was playing the baker. Uh eventually, um, what happened? So then they were working on it, and then I I get a series in LA, and I'm out in LA, and um I get a call, then I hear that they want uh, you know, what I really wanted to do is play the Baker. I realized like that that's would be the you know, that would be great, and uh and the right part for me.

[1:03:03] CHIP ZIEN: And um I got a call from uh Ira Weitzman, I'm in LA, and he said, Well, uh Le Pine, you know, and still they want you to fly back here and audition for Into the Woods the Roll of the Baker. He said, but he said, but wait a second. He said, but I said, well, that's great. He said, yeah, but listen, if you come back here, I don't think you'll get it.

[1:03:27] CHIP ZIEN: He said they're they're really, they don't know what they're doing. They they really wanted um uh uh what's his name? Um Amadeus, uh uh uh the the lead, uh you know, he's a producer now, famous.

[1:03:39] Kevin David Thomas: Tom Holtz.

[1:03:40] CHIP ZIEN: Tom Holtz, they really want Tom Holtz, they want Tom Holtz. He said, but they're not gonna be able to get him because he's he's too busy now on film. And uh he said, they think maybe you're the right person. He said they really are kind of stuck, but I think if you come back, the you know, who knows? The the you know, they're fickle.

[1:03:58] CHIP ZIEN: So um he said, Le Pine's gonna call you. He said, tell him that you know your shooting schedule wouldn't allow you to come back, and uh, let's see what happens. I said, but Ira, Ira. I said, like, wait a minute. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. He said, No, no, I'll mon I'll monitor this. I'll I'll stay on top of it. Don't worry about it. I'll stay on top of it.

[1:04:15] CHIP ZIEN: And um so Le Pine called and I said, James, I'm so sorry, but the schedule, you know, I obviously I give anything to play that part, but I lied my way into basically so what so I you know, and um I didn't come back, and finally Le Pine called me a few days later, and he said, Look, we don't have any more time, we're gonna hire you to do this, and uh, you know, how soon can you get back?

[1:04:38] CHIP ZIEN: And I actually started like a day uh like this day after they had started rehearsals or something. Because I did have to finish filming this show. And uh, and then about five days after that, we had some like sort of sketchy run through of act one, and Le Pine said to me, He said, You know, I don't think it's working. And I thought, like, well, uh, you know, I don't need this. I'm on a TV series.

[1:05:02] CHIP ZIEN: And uh, so it turned out that that series, Shell Game, was dead last in the ratings. Shell game is called Shell Game, was dead last in the ratings. And um uh and then the next day, Le Pine uh we did it again, and Le Pine said, Oh, I'm so sorry. He said, You know, I was just in a bad mood yesterday. I think it's gonna be great.

[1:05:23] Kevin David Thomas: Okay.

[1:05:25] CHIP ZIEN: So it was essentially what he said. So and and so then we go to we go to San Diego. Yeah, and uh, you know, and uh these were you know huge moments that you just looking back on it, you know, and there was a moment, you know, I I've tell the story a lot, but you know, no more, the song No More was not in Into the Woods when we started rehearsing.

[1:05:46] CHIP ZIEN: And uh and it you know, we had done these things where you go to Sondheim's house and you sit by his piano and he's working out keys and things, so he he he really gets a good idea of what your range is, and and it's Sondheim and it's his house, and you know, it's fantastic.

[1:06:00] CHIP ZIEN: Catherine Hepburn is next door. I don't know if I ever told you that. Did I ever tell you that story?

[1:06:04] Kevin David Thomas: No.

[1:06:05] CHIP ZIEN: So I was in a movie called uh well, look you can look it up, it's horrible. I was in this movie, and uh they live next door to each other. Yeah, and uh so let's see, how do I tell this story first? So Sondheim, you know, basically said, You know who the witch next door is, like who lives next to me is Catherine Hepburn and when I had to meet her to be approved for this film, she said, You know who lives? There's this guy who writes music who lives next to me. She said he plays his piano at four o'clock in the morning. She had to climb up his rose trellis. I had to climb up the rose trellis. You know, and and because she's playing the piano, she said, What kind of what kind of a nut plays his piano at four o'clock in the morning?

So it was really funny because they've over next to him. But but it's so at some point Sondheim comes into the rehearsals of Into the Woods and he's and he has written a song called No More. And he takes this you know huge packet of sheet music and spreads it out on the piano so it's falling off on either side of the of you know the music holder. And I'm still I'm there, uh Paul Geminiani's standing there, I'm standing there, and Tom Aldridge, who's a great guy, wonderful guy. And we're standing there, and he starts singing and playing no more. And I turn around, I mean, you know, we we're just all like I turn around. Paul Geminiani is a big bear of a guy, just tears streaming down his face.

You know, these are things that you don't get to see. Sondheim singing away. Uh it's like a Bill when Bill Finn sings his own music. It's really fun to see it too. Um, but Sondheim singing away, and and um we were just all crying. Yeah, you know, and then I thought, like, oh my god, I get to sing this song. Yeah, and then later on, when we're so we go to San Diego, and no one is alone is not in the show. We open the show without no one is alone. And uh at some point we're we go to the his Sondheim comes in again, same thing. We go downstairs at the old globe, and and uh he spreads the music out on the piano. And he said, Oh, listen, okay, so this is for uh the baker for Cinderella for Jack and for uh little red.

And I'm Joanne and I were sharing a car. We were staying at Oakwood, and she was there. And she almost, you know, Joanna said, What? What? What do you mean? And and uh she's you know, so he sang this unbelievable song, and then I had to drive home with Joanna, who was furious. She said, like, wait a minute. Why did I have to die? Wait a second. What why am I dad? Why am I dying so soon? Like, don't I get to sing this song? Eventually she did. Yeah. Um, but uh you know, um you know, I the whole experience of it was just unbelievable. And then we we did take too much time between uh San Diego and and New York. They they went back into we went back into workshops.

[1:08:49] Kevin David Thomas: You did, yeah.

[1:08:49] CHIP ZIEN: And you know, they hired uh uh uh you know Betty Buckley.

[1:08:53] Kevin David Thomas: No, I don't know this.

[1:08:54] CHIP ZIEN: I'd heard that she was Oh yeah, it was unbelievable. I mean they hired Betty Buckley, who who would have been great, but it didn't work out. She was there were some issues there. Uh that's all the stuff of folklore. But I know one of the incidents was that Betty um I just saw 54 Below, we had the nicest conversation. But um Betty Buckley was saying uh she she was you know the witch starts out ugly and then becomes beautiful. Right. And Betty Buckley had her like one of her costume fittings that was fairly far along in the process. And she she went she went in and said, you know, um I have I've I've I have a different concept of how this is gonna work. She said, I think the witch is gonna start out beautiful and then become even more beautiful.

And so like we're gonna have to throw out all this, all these costume designs because we're I you know I really am this is really important. This has to be changed. Oh and uh and um they called Le Pine and Le Pine said, Okay, that's it, I'm firing her. And and uh that was it. And then Bernadette showed up.

[1:10:00] Kevin David Thomas: Wow.

[1:09:58] CHIP ZIEN: And uh relatively late to the process. Well, we were we were still we were at 890, so like yeah, it was kind of yeah, it was we were well into rehearsals. Right. And you know, we kind of backtracked a little bit so that she had time to learn the show uh and Bernadette was just great to be around and you know Joanne and I would drive up 8th Avenue sometimes we take a cab we rehearse at 890 Broadway and you know Joanna and I would like to drive up we both lived on the upper west side and we drive up 8th Avenue and all of a sudden the boot is over the theater our names are over the title and and you're going like wow this is kind of what we always had hoped would somehow happen and it's unbelievable that it did.

[1:10:41] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah so you know lots of people way after we're all gone are going to keep doing this show and they're gonna keep playing the baker so what words of advice do you have for future generations that are gonna inhabit the role?

[1:10:54] CHIP ZIEN: Learn your lines talk loud enough to be heard. You'd be surprised those are valuable I always say you know because I it you know it's it's an ensemble show but I always I always whisper to the bakers when I see them like at a stage door some kids come up to me and they say they're playing the baker and I said you're the lead don't tell anybody nobody will believe you but you're the lead. So um it's true it's ensemble but he is but um you know Austin Pendleton told me you have to you have you know there's a lot of trickery in Into the Woods and you have to figure out what what tricks each person to get that object like Little Red how do you appeal to them how do you and each person he said you should be able to find like a different way to appeal to each person in order to get the the magical things that you need.

And uh I always think that's a really good note. You have to get, you know, a good sort of objective. Try to be like, how do I get through to you? Right. Yeah. You know, and uh, so that was fun. One of the one that's one of the things I always thought about. And and um, you know, there's a great scene that Le Pine cut very close to opening, which which was my almost my favorite scene in the whole show, which had to do with the fact that Joanna and I, we Little Red, uh, we free her from uh the wolf who's eating her, and then we rescue her, and then Joanna and I are sitting on a log, and we're going like, well, you know, what do we do now? We uh, you know, and and Joanna says, I think we have to take her in, and she has to live with us.

And I and I my line is that you know I don't like her. And it was a great scene. I was like, I'm no, no, I no, no, no, we're not taking her in. I don't like her. She's you know, and I it was a great, it was one of my most favorite scenes in the show, and it ended up being cut.

[1:12:44] Kevin David Thomas: What do you look for out of a director?

[1:12:46] CHIP ZIEN: You know, there's different kinds. I mean, uh, you know, and it's a little bit different. Uh um like James has a there's a lot of clarity with James. You kind of know what he wants, and uh, and that's always helpful. I mean, you know, and and uh I like it when they're nice to me. Uh that's always important. Some of them are not yeah, I mean, like um, yeah. You can tell the story of Gutierrez. I mean, well, Jerry could be terrible, but but eventually, you know, uh, I grew to love him because he he also changed my life, but he was very hard on me. Um you know, I talk a lot about Tommy Toon. I mean, like I I took over for Michael Jeter. And Grand Hotel in Grand Hotel. And and uh, you know, Tommy Toon, uh it the his visual sense of what is good in theater is just was just astounding.

I mean, he had some strange ability to know what is theatrical, what's fun to watch. Yeah, and uh and I loved him. I mean, he he sent me little notes saying like, you know, I was in the theater a couple nights ago, you were fantastic, or you know, just little thoughtful things like that. Or I just I'm I'm in Washington. I just talked to some friends who were at the show the other night and they thought you were great. And stuff like that. Um and but also you knew that if if he you know he made he he he choreographed stuff that that just you know I'm not a dancer. Uh and Jeter had that phenomenal ability to throw his legs around his rubbery and there's nobody I mean he was you know it was did you know him personally I knew him well for a long, long time.

Yeah we should probably celebrate yeah the man who was Michael Jeter since he's no longer with us yeah no Michael Jeter was right and I mean he was took over yeah uh he uh you know is it was a a great I mean he first of all that he was unbelievable in that part but he was good in so many things. The what's this what's the movie about f the flooding when the world is covered with what with water world.

[1:14:41] CHIP ZIEN: Water world is that the Water World yeah Water World and Jeter's in that film. It's one of it's he's he's phenomenal at it the the crazy uh no yeah he's in the he's in the hold is where the fuel is like and he's fantastic in it. I mean he's he was such a good actor and at some point he was skydiving I ran into him and I I guess what was I doing at that point in my life he was talking about being in LA and skydiving and uh, you know he he was a great guy. I I actually knew him really early on because of commercials oddly like when we were both really young like going to J. Walter Thompson on a Disney for commercial Jeter of you know and so we I had known him a long time. But uh so Tommy Toon like the thing with Tommy is that you always felt y he was you were gonna look good.

You had the confidence of knowing that that you know and the thing about Grand Hotel was is that it was so choreographed all the way through that you couldn't stray too much from from the for timing and for all sorts of you know the blocking was down to each square that was on the stage so Tommy Toon and like James Lapine are like the yin and yang of directors. I mean you know Tommy is all about theatrics and what looks you know thrilling and he's a choreographer. You know Le Pine famously came in he he auditioned choreographers for Into the Woods and famous choreographers and he would say to them things like and we and we came in to work with the choreographers and then Le Pine would come in to like approve or disapprove of that material or to and to either hire that choreographer or move on to somebody else and there were like five or six of them and put famously you know my wife is in the is in the New York City Ballet so I had been around dancers a lot but Le Pine would come in and he would say to choreographers I love what you've done he said if just if you could take out the steps take he said just if you could just take out all the steps then I think it would be better.

And the choreographers would turn around and go like what the steps steps are all I've got. Steps are my vocabulary would you take out all your lines oh my God you know and so but but Le Pine also um he always said to me and I and I loved him for it he said you know I won't let you be embarrassed you know and so uh but they were very different they they've they came from completely different disciplines and uh and I I love them both they were very different now you know there's another director I worked for who's just an icon, who's a genius, but he he was so mean. Uh I don't know if you've heard of Mike Nichols, but I shouldn't even talk about this on the block. But he, you know, he was I I've just he was so he was so mean.

I mean, it was like, wait a minute, you know, and uh and I was the recipient of some of that meanness until until I wasn't, and then he was lovely. But man, it was like, oh my gosh, you know, uh please just calm down. You know, I'm not trying to hurt anybody, okay? You know, playing pretend up here.

[1:17:36] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah, yeah, which is just a play. And you know, it's only a play, as Terrence McNally said. Um wow, you know, uh interesting, you know. But but again, like like with Mike Nichols, at one point I had a little thing where I uh where I exited a scene and I bowed. I bowed to Morgan Freeman, and this was the country girl, terrible you know, also bombed. But um, or well, I don't know if a bomb, but we didn't run. And uh he he uh I had a thing where I was the mean producer who was being rough on Morgan Freeman, and and at the end of it I had to sort of obsequiously uh um be supportive of Morgan because it turned out he was great, and and uh I had to do this little sort of curtsy as I was leaving the dressing room.

This is in you know in the play, and it got always got a big laugh. And and um Mike Nichols, and one night I didn't get the laugh, and Mike Nichols came running up to my dressing room to fix it for me. Oh god, he said, you know, it's very hard. He said, like to get to find that you found that laugh. And he said, and I know what the difference, I know it was wrong, but he did. He did fix it. Oh, really? And I thought, like, man, that's really cool. You know, so I mean he he he was brilliant and could be terribly mean, but he was brilliant.

[1:18:48] CHIP ZIEN: It's, you know, I don't know how to, you know, in the current environment that we're in, it's hard to know where the lines are exactly. It's just being mean.

[1:18:59] Kevin David Thomas: Um, Falsettos comes back.

[1:19:02] CHIP ZIEN: Well, yeah. So it's wild to revisit something for so many years. You know, that was frustrating because it wasn't going to be us. You know that whole story.

[1:19:11] Kevin David Thomas: We had Evan Pappas on, he was telling us.

[1:19:13] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah, I mean, Evan, so those guys had all done it, and Adam Heller and Evan and, you know, all those guys, and, well, Barb Walsh had done it with them. And that was a tough time. I mean, that was another moment where like family issues cropped up, and it was like, you know, why is that coming in? Right. You know, why is that happening and not us? I mean, if it's gonna happen. And there were all kinds, yeah, there were a lot of phone calls.

[1:19:43] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

[1:19:44] CHIP ZIEN: And oh, yeah. We've heard, yeah, and, you know, eventually it came back to us. But I think Billy, you know, Billy's feeling was that I think he thought that the other production was maybe friendlier in some way that it could, I don't, I don't know. I mean, but that was tough. That was a really tough time. Lepine found himself on one side of that too. I mean, like he, you know, enlisted our support, which was great, and Billy had gone off on a tangent, but then Andre Bishop with, there were so many cross currents. Lincoln Center was involved, and the idea of a proscenium stage and in the round and then like whose production can go where. I mean, it was really tense. And I talked to a director who was a friend of mine, but I don't think we've spoken since.

Who said, I said, you know, it's been, he said, what's going on? I said, well, I mean, I've been a little upset because I'm thinking that Falsettos is coming into Broadway and we're not going to get to do it. And he said, well, why should you get to do it? And you know, looking back on all of it, you know, he maybe had a point. But I remember saying at the time, well, because I spent my whole life, my whole career, like, you know, 15 years of my career working on it, because I feel like a lot of it was written on us and around us, right for us. And like he said, you have no ownership of that show. And I, you know, so it's two schools of thought.

[1:21:14] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, and you know, Adam Heller, these are really close friends of mine. I mean, you know, they have feelings about and I totally, you know, it's a mess. It was a mess.

[1:21:22] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah, it's the unfair side of the business. I mean, that's what it is.

[1:21:25] Kevin David Thomas: But you were the ones who ended up on Broadway at the end of the day.

[1:21:29] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah. Did you know it was gonna be this huge juggernaut?

[1:21:34] CHIP ZIEN: You know, it's the first time in my life that I sort of didn't care. It's the weirdest thing. Like, I, you know, I can be really nervous on opening nights and sort of lose my focus and, you know, surrender whatever, you know, self-reliance I have to the showbiz gods. And, you know, I was sitting with Jack O'Brien at a show at the Manhattan Theater Club, and he had a really funny thing on Broadway World, an interview where he talked about how much he hates the audience. It was during when The Nance was opening. Like I said, I hate it. The audience comes in and they spoil my fun, and the critics, he said, I hate them all. I hate them all. And I remember laughing because I have that feeling too.

It's like, wait a minute, why do you have to interfere with all the fun we're having? You know, get out of it. So, but with Falsettos, it was such a sort of a family event. That's how it felt that it was, I think the only of all the shows that I've been in and opened, it's the only one where it seemed to be more important than the fact that critics were showing up and that it just seemed like the culmination of our life and of our careers, and it was kind of glorious, and, you know, not to be corny, but it was a glorious moment that was much bigger than the normal show business concerns, and it was at a critical time in the history of our profession. And, you know, so it was very special, really nothing like it.

[1:23:19] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah. In the original production, tell us a little bit about the audience reactions.

[1:23:23] CHIP ZIEN: I mean, we are thank God removed so much from so many people dying of HIV and AIDS. You were in the middle of it.

[1:23:32] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah, we were in the middle of it. No, it was terrible. I mean, like people came backstage. I remember walking in that alleyway at the Golden, and there were, you know, people who we've lost who were still with us who were just sobbing, and we would stand and like, you know, lean against that wall and that coming out of the back of the Golden, and, you know, it was brutal. It could be just brutal. And people sobbing in the audience at the curtain, and yeah, you know, it was, I can't believe we've gone through this time. I mean, I can't believe it happened. When we started Falsettos, we were all carefree, and you know, when we started March of the Falsettos and Trousers, it was all big. We were all carefree and stupid.

[1:24:19] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[1:24:20] CHIP ZIEN: Um, and that terrible scourge that happened. I mean, it's just, you know, it was unbelievable. It was very, very hard to go through that.

[1:24:32] Kevin David Thomas: But you know that you provided so much comfort to so many people in a trying time.

[1:24:36] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah, I think I like to think so, but yeah, yeah. But it was a tough time. And then you went back to Into the Woods, but in Central Park.

[1:24:48] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[1:24:48] CHIP ZIEN: And this time playing your father.

[1:24:50] CHIP ZIEN: Yeah, that was fun. You know, those guys had a completely different idea about how the show should go.

[1:24:57] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[1:24:57] CHIP ZIEN: Right. So there were a lot of tricky moments in that whole thing. You know, was it hard for you not to say, oh, I mean, I, you know, the red floor.

[1:25:06] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, like where's the red floor?

[1:25:08] CHIP ZIEN: No, but in the, where's the way this, the sliding hill that we had, you know, the sweep. We called it the sweep. Where's the sweep? I don't know where to go, where to stand. Yeah, I mean, they had a completely different idea about, and partly they had this idea of sort of naturalism that I, you know, I question. I mean, you know, but I, you know, and Lepine, every once in a while emailed me during that process going like, what's going on there? And at some point, like when we were previewing, I got an email from him saying that like, I'm, you know, I'm coming to the theater and to the Delacorte and I want to, I'm gonna talk to the cast. Or no, I didn't hear from him, I heard from our company manager of the Delacorte of that production saying we're having a meeting at like, you know, half hour with Lepine on the stage.

And I thought like, uh oh, what could that be? What's that gonna be about? Yeah. And I remember I was, I was eating, I was at a Japanese restaurant with my wife on Amsterdam, and I said, like, I don't even know why, what's gonna happen. What could that be about? And Lepine had, he had some, you know, he had some notes. Oh, he, he, it was kind of cute. He said, you know, like there, he said, I think, you know, the book can work better if we kind of move through it. You know, he said, I don't, you know, and, but he was very sweet about it, he was modest. Yeah, and, but you know, it was complicated to relive it, but for me what was really fun is that everybody was trapped, they had to talk to me, all those younger actors.

They had to hear every single story, they had to sit there and deal with me, and I got to tell all these stories and why this is why it is and what where this came from, and, you know, so I had a great time. One night all the ladies in the cast came over to my apartment and I had no food to offer them. They tricked me, you know, Amy Adams, all that whole group of actresses and Sarah Stiles and, you know, and Jesse Mueller, all those great casts, and they were so much fun, and they were, they, I walked home, I would always leave and not go out for drinks because I had a new puppy at that time, a little duck. And they decided to sneak over to my apartment to follow me. And so one night they came up to my, it was so embarrassing. There was like nothing in the refrigerator. And, but it was fun. They were, they were trapped and I got to tell stories over and over again.

[1:27:50] Kevin David Thomas: Well, pay it forward.

[1:27:51] CHIP ZIEN: Yes, just like you're doing today.

[1:27:53] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, yeah.

[1:27:53] CHIP ZIEN: Just like you're doing today.

[1:27:55] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, yeah. And we do not feel trapped at all. We are so grateful that you even came to spend any time with us.

[1:27:59] CHIP ZIEN: I don't know. It's fun to tell a story.

[1:28:01] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[1:28:01] CHIP ZIEN: I have to, you know, I'm gonna speak on behalf of so many young people out there. You know, thank you so much for all you've given us because this video, this, you know, imagine if it wasn't recorded, but thank God it was. Everyone watches your performance and it inspires so many people to get into this business. So on behalf of all of them, thank you for all you do and all you continue to do.

[1:28:24] CHIP ZIEN: That's very kind. Seriously. Thank you.

[1:28:26] Kevin David Thomas: Thank you.

[1:28:27] CHIP ZIEN: Um, what's next for you, Chip?

[1:28:30] CHIP ZIEN: Actually, you know what? I don't know. The, um, I've done this, um, I've done a million readings this year.

[1:28:38] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[1:28:39] CHIP ZIEN: Some of which I've been thrown overboard on, which is always depressing. But a few which are supposed to go, one of which has to do with Lerner and Lowe. There's a, there's a, um, oh yes, I've heard of this Roman. There's a Susan Stroman directed sort of docudrama musical thing.

[1:28:47] Kevin David Thomas: I've heard of this.

[1:28:57] CHIP ZIEN: And it's supposed to, we were supposed to go in February and March and film for PBS. It's basically to be filmed for television. And um, so that's what I'm hoping. Now they're saying maybe not until August.

[1:29:12] Kevin David Thomas: Okay. Well, we'll keep our fingers crossed.

[1:29:13] CHIP ZIEN: So that's supposed to happen. And um, this other, I don't know, I've been working on a whole bunch of things. I know you're, I've also, here's the other thing. I was on House of Cards this season.

[1:29:22] Kevin David Thomas: Yes.

[1:29:23] CHIP ZIEN: Except that it, you know, it has disappeared momentarily. But I did, I just got called last week that I think maybe my stuff has been salvaged somehow because they are, they've checked my availability in, uh, at the end of this month in February. So I think, you know, who knows?

[1:29:39] Kevin David Thomas: You're always working.

[1:29:40] CHIP ZIEN: And hopefully a sequel to Howard the Duck.

[1:29:42] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[1:29:43] CHIP ZIEN: At some point we'll keep up. You know.

[1:29:45] Kevin David Thomas: Why don't I get to go to Comic Con?

[1:29:47] CHIP ZIEN: I was gonna say hello! Nobody ever invites me. Is anyone listening? Invite me to Comic Con.

[1:29:52] Kevin David Thomas: We're tweeting at Comic Con. Chip wants to be there.

[1:29:54] CHIP ZIEN: But seriously, thank you so much for everything.

[1:29:57] CHIP ZIEN: Thank you.

[1:29:58] Kevin David Thomas: Bye.

[1:30:01] CHIP ZIEN: Good day, Mr. Thomas.

[1:30:02] Kevin David Thomas: Good day, Mr. Schneider.

[1:30:05] Robert W. Schneider: Well, it has happened. We finally hit over 100 iTunes reviews, and would like to thank each and every person who took the time to do so.

[1:30:13] Kevin David Thomas: Huzzah. Now we want to climb those charts even faster. And that is where you lovely folks who have not yet rated us come in.

[1:30:21] Robert W. Schneider: The process is very simple. On your podcast app, tap the search tab, enter our name Behind the Curtain, Broadway's Living Legends, tap the search key, tap our beautiful logo, tap the reviews, tap write a review, then tap your way into our hearts.

[1:30:37] Kevin David Thomas: Tap your troubles away.

[1:30:39] Robert W. Schneider: That's nice, Rob. Once you were there, you can rate us from one star to five stars. Think of one star as Hervey V—Rob, how do you say this name?

[1:30:47] Kevin David Thomas: Herve Villechaize.

[1:30:49] Robert W. Schneider: I walked right into that one. Think of one star as Herve Villechaize and Ima Sumac in Sideshow and five stars as front row seats to the opening night of Gypsy.

[1:30:59] Kevin David Thomas: But they keep me.

[1:31:01] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, they keep me for the third time. I thought that was pretty good.

[1:31:07] Kevin David Thomas: Excuse me, Arthur Lawrence.

[1:31:08] Robert W. Schneider: Excuse me, but trying to liven up our commercial ads a little bit.

[1:31:13] Kevin David Thomas: Eight-minute long commercial.

[1:31:15] Robert W. Schneider: It's an infomercial at this point.

[1:31:18] Kevin David Thomas: I'm gonna be like that lady that sells you the copper pots. Look at this. You can put 400 pounds of manure in it and it slides right out. Then you can make an omelet.

[1:31:26] Robert W. Schneider: You got another line, Kevin?

[1:31:29] Kevin David Thomas: I'm waiting for you to say, plus, you can leave your comment and let us know if you like and what guests were like.

[1:31:29] Robert W. Schneider: Plus, you can leave a comment to let us know what you are liking, what you're not liking at this point, or what guests you'd like to hear next. So head on over to iTunes and let us know what you think of our little show.

[1:31:44] Kevin David Thomas: Speaking of little, I'll tell you a story about Charles Laughton later. Thanks, guys.