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[0:00] Robert W. Schneider: Well, you guys, the time has come.

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[1:08] Kevin David Thomas: So I'm gonna ask you, WALTER, tell me about Two by Two Tony nominations.

[1:16] WALTER WILLISON: Well, um, it was incredible. Leading up to it, I should tell you, I should finish that story I started before.

[1:27] Kevin David Thomas: Yes.

[1:27] WALTER WILLISON: Because it kind of leads up to that. Um, you know, Danny did that terrible thing and said that terrible thing, and it was all over the papers, the magazines and like that.

[1:36] WALTER WILLISON: And I'm thinking, what do I do? Do I tell him off or do I never speak to him again? And decided you're, you know, 20, what was I, 21 year, 22?

[1:45] WALTER WILLISON: Yeah, 21 years old, 22, and you're too young to, you know, he's a big star. So I decided never to talk to him again.

[1:53] WALTER WILLISON: So I didn't. Um, and one by one, the rest of the cast, you know, the end of the year, nobody was talking to him.

[2:01] WALTER WILLISON: But the interesting thing was then he started to pull stuff on stage. He would like do things to screw me up.

[2:09] WALTER WILLISON: And but what he didn't know that was so cool was every night when he would do something that would screw me up, I would call Joe Leighton.

[2:18] WALTER WILLISON: And Joe and his wife Evie, if she was in town, they'd say, Oh, come over and have dinner.

[2:21] WALTER WILLISON: And after the show, I'd go over to that place. And Joe said, Now, you know, when he does this, you do this.

[2:27] WALTER WILLISON: So the next night I would go back, and of course, Danny always did things again. If he could pull something off, he'd never so he would try the same little trick, and I would have my little, I would top it, whatever it was, and he would get so angry, and he never knew that for a year I was actually being directed by Joe Leighton behind his back.

[2:46] WALTER WILLISON: Joe Leighton saved my life. So anyway, then that whole thing happened. I had stopped talking to him, and the Tony nominations came out, and I actually found out the night before at about six o'clock as Craig Zayton, wonderful Greg Zayton, was writing for After Dark then.

[3:03] WALTER WILLISON: So he was, and then we didn't have cell phones, so he had to go to Schubert Alley and the payphone and call me.

[3:08] WALTER WILLISON: And he was before they even called me, he said you're nominated. It was incredible.

[3:12] WALTER WILLISON: So I went, did the show that Tuesday night, and nobody knew. And I didn't tell anybody.

[3:20] WALTER WILLISON: And um Harry Gauz, in fact, and I was really Harry Goss had gotten stuck in traffic on the bridge, no cell phone, and arrived like eight minutes before the curtain.

[3:29] WALTER WILLISON: So it was a but I didn't tell anybody. Anyway, after the show, um, I was friends with Peggy Lee, who was playing the Waldorf, and I went to see Peggy's show, and I was at her suite afterwards, and she's saying, oh, congratulations, he says, and I don't want to be you tomorrow.

[3:43] WALTER WILLISON: And I said, What? And she said, He'll do something.

[3:47] WALTER WILLISON: And I said, No, he can't possibly do anything to me. He'll do something.

[3:52] WALTER WILLISON: So I thought, nah. So the next morning, my lovely agent Edith Ann Cleve calls me and says, You better um leave early.

[3:58] WALTER WILLISON: It's St. Patrick's Day. It was a Wednesday, because it's a parade.

[4:02] WALTER WILLISON: And I always left, and it was I lived on the east side, and it would take me half an hour, get there by cab, plenty of time.

[4:08] WALTER WILLISON: But I left an hour early, and I told my roommate, call the theater and tell them that I'm gonna be late because I might get stuck in the parade.

[4:16] WALTER WILLISON: Might not be mine. So I got there about nine minutes after half hour.

[4:22] WALTER WILLISON: Um, and I walked in, and the stage manager said, Uh, you can't go on tonight today.

[4:27] WALTER WILLISON: And I when he said, Well, you're you're nine minutes late. I said, But Harry was like, you know, he got there eight minutes before the curtain.

[4:33] WALTER WILLISON: He was like 22 minutes late last night. He said, Well, you can't go on today.

[4:37] WALTER WILLISON: And this is like, now we're like 12 minutes late, and I'm standing backstage, and down the stairs comes my understudy, who also happens to be the assistant stage manager who took that phone call, in complete body makeup and in my costume.

[4:52] WALTER WILLISON: And it took me like, you know, a half an hour to get all the makeup on because you wore body Texas dirt all over your body and make face makeup and he's already in costume.

[5:02] WALTER WILLISON: He comes out in Danny Kaye's dressing room, is I'm sort of standing backstage of the Imperial, and the stairs are the left, and Danny's dressing room to the right.

[5:09] WALTER WILLISON: He comes out of his dressing room, and as far as I am from you, like this close, I'm standing there crying, and he puts he does ignores me, puts his hand on the shoulders of the understudy and says, You'll be great because I know you'll listen to me.

[5:23] WALTER WILLISON: Oh my god. And then he goes his way.

[5:26] WALTER WILLISON: So I go outside, I'm like standing outside, Jerry White, wonderful Jerry White, who was um longtime stage manager for Rogers and Hammerstein, and he directed a lot of shows, and then he became Dick's assistant.

[5:37] WALTER WILLISON: He comes up to the theater congratulate me and says, What are you doing standing outside?

[5:41] WALTER WILLISON: You gotta go get ready. I said, They won't let me go on.

[5:43] WALTER WILLISON: And I, because I'm late, he said, Well, that's ridiculous.

[5:45] WALTER WILLISON: So he goes across, he goes in the stage door, goes across stage.

[5:48] WALTER WILLISON: I see him arguing with the stage manager, and he comes back and he says, I'm sorry, there's there's nothing I can do about it.

[5:54] WALTER WILLISON: He said, Danny refused to go on if you went on today.

[5:59] WALTER WILLISON: So there were no posters in front of the theater saying not Tony Nominee.

[6:04] WALTER WILLISON: He refused, he wouldn't let anything happen.

[6:06] WALTER WILLISON: Wow. I watched the first act so that people could see I was there, all the users said, We thought you were sick.

[6:11] WALTER WILLISON: I said, Nope, I'm here.

[6:13] WALTER WILLISON: And people would come in and then they knew from the show and they would look at me and say, Why is he back here?

[6:17] WALTER WILLISON: And when I saw that the kid, very nice kid though, didn't stop the show with the first song.

[6:23] WALTER WILLISON: I thought, oh, I feel better.

[6:24] WALTER WILLISON: And then when he didn't stop the show with his second song, I felt even better.

[6:28] WALTER WILLISON: And I knew Danny didn't like that, because even though he we may have had an animosity, he still wanted the show to work.

[6:35] WALTER WILLISON: So um I went across the street to see Maureen Stapleton, who was doing Gingerbread Lady, and I walk, you know, intermission.

[6:40] WALTER WILLISON: I walk in and I walk behind him, and she goes, Oh my god, I knew he would do something today.

[6:46] WALTER WILLISON: And I said, like everybody knew but me, Betsy von Wersberg said, We'll take him up on charges.

[6:51] WALTER WILLISON: But in 1971, you didn't take even, you know, today, he would have been, you know, forget it.

[6:57] WALTER WILLISON: It was on the social media alone. Talking about any me too, yeah, anyway.

[7:01] WALTER WILLISON: But here's the cool side story. Also, can I tell that?

[7:03] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[7:04] WALTER WILLISON: Okay. So um well, after I got the part, um, opening night, I met Larry Kurt, who was at opening night, who's a good friend of Marty Charnin, wonderful Larry Kurt.

[7:13] WALTER WILLISON: And I was at Sardi's, and I even after he left, and after he left, all of a sudden I get this announcement phone call for WALTER WILLISON over the speaker.

[7:21] WALTER WILLISON: And I went, what? Who's calling me on opening night? Like, and I picked up the phone and it was Larry, and he said, I just wanted to be your first phone call at Sardi's.

[7:29] WALTER WILLISON: Such a great guy. So Larry, that um I went out to dinner with him.

[7:33] WALTER WILLISON: I went over his house, I guess I had to dinner over his house one night, and he says, you know, originally Two by Two, they had thought Larry was gonna play my part.

[7:42] WALTER WILLISON: And uh that that's who kind of it was originally conceived for.

[7:46] WALTER WILLISON: Marty Charnin had in West Side Story with him, and he was the hot leading man at the time.

[7:50] WALTER WILLISON: And um, he said, But you auditioned like 10 in the morning, and that night, the first day at 10 o'clock, Marty Charnin called him and said, I think you lost your part.

[7:59] WALTER WILLISON: He said, This kid came in who really is that kid, who really is young, and he said, Um, I'm sorry, Larry, you lost your part.

[8:06] WALTER WILLISON: And so Larry goes to a party.

[8:08] WALTER WILLISON: Hal Prince is at this party, and Al Prince says, What are you doing, Larry?

[8:12] WALTER WILLISON: And he said, Well, I thought I was gonna be doing Two by Two, but they found this new kid.

[8:15] WALTER WILLISON: And he says, Well, how would you feel about covering Company?

[8:19] WALTER WILLISON: And he said, Sure, why not?

[8:21] WALTER WILLISON: So he does it. They're unhappy with Dean Jones.

[8:24] WALTER WILLISON: Six weeks into the run, they replace him with Larry.

[8:26] WALTER WILLISON: Well, the Tonys come around.

[8:29] WALTER WILLISON: They don't want to nominate Danny for the reasons I told you.

[8:32] WALTER WILLISON: So there's Hal Linden, there's in uh Rothschild, there's Bobby Van.

[8:37] WALTER WILLISON: And they need at least a third one.

[8:38] WALTER WILLISON: There's nobody else.

[8:40] WALTER WILLISON: And but then they decide that for the first time ever in history, before or since, they're gonna nominate a replacement.

[8:48] WALTER WILLISON: Right.

[8:48] WALTER WILLISON: And they nominate Larry Kurt for a Tony Award for Best Actor in a Musical.

[8:53] WALTER WILLISON: So we both got to be for best.

[8:55] WALTER WILLISON: You got the Tony Awards for the board.

[8:56] WALTER WILLISON: Everybody wins nominations, yeah, which was like great.

[8:59] WALTER WILLISON: You know, he like it works.

[9:00] WALTER WILLISON: So everything works out.

[9:01] WALTER WILLISON: The universe works out.

[9:03] WALTER WILLISON: So it was a pretty and after the Tony Awards at the party, Joan Copeland comes up to me and says, Um, you know, I have to say I didn't win, obviously.

[9:12] WALTER WILLISON: I was so glad King Curtis won, by the way.

[9:13] WALTER WILLISON: He became such a good friend.

[9:15] WALTER WILLISON: And he said to me at the party, you know, you're gonna win, but I've never been even nominated for anything, so it's great.

[9:20] WALTER WILLISON: And I so I kept thinking, if I don't get this, I really want him to get it, and he did, and he deserved it.

[9:26] WALTER WILLISON: And um, so Keen got it, and after the party, Joan Copeland comes up and says, You know, best thing that ever happened to you was you're nominated for Tony.

[9:26] WALTER WILLISON: Best thing that ever happened to you was you didn't get it.

[9:39] WALTER WILLISON: And I said, Why?

[9:40] WALTER WILLISON: And she said, Well, Danny has his plane already at the airport, and if you had won the Tony tonight, we would have closed tomorrow.

[9:49] WALTER WILLISON: Yeah, he was ready to hop on his plane, walk out on the show, and fly to LA.

[9:55] WALTER WILLISON: Incredible, right?

[9:57] WALTER WILLISON: Well, but you know, and here's another thing.

[9:58] WALTER WILLISON: Over the weekend, I watched The Mad Woman of Shio with Catherine Hepburn and Danny Kaye, which came out in 1969, same year as Dear World right before Two by Two.

[10:07] WALTER WILLISON: Yeah, Two Mad Woman with Shio things happening at once, and I had not watched it since I saw it before the show, you know, because I didn't want to watch him then.

[10:17] WALTER WILLISON: And you know something?

[10:19] WALTER WILLISON: He was brilliant in that movie.

[10:22] WALTER WILLISON: He is so touching, so brilliant.

[10:24] WALTER WILLISON: And he had then he has a big monologue in the second half where he is bombastic and he's just brilliant.

[10:31] WALTER WILLISON: And it's the Danny Kaye that I knew, and we started Two by Two, and it's the Danny Kaye as Danny Kaye was when we opened in the show when he was really brilliant.

[10:41] WALTER WILLISON: And you know, I for the rest of those nine months, I I've since played the part twice, you know, no, three times.

[10:49] WALTER WILLISON: And um, it's really demanding and it's really exhausting.

[10:53] WALTER WILLISON: It's like playing Mama Rose.

[10:54] WALTER WILLISON: I mean, you never stop and you sing and you act, and you become your 600, you're 90, you know.

[11:00] WALTER WILLISON: It's a killer role.

[11:01] WALTER WILLISON: I don't know how he had time to screw around because it's I don't know how I was exhausted after the performances, you know, because it was like draining.

[11:01] WALTER WILLISON: I don't know how he had time to do that and screw around.

[11:13] WALTER WILLISON: And it's a shame because when he was good, he was really good.

[11:17] WALTER WILLISON: Um, the capper and the end of the story, I guess, is that you know, Jones told you about what he did to her, the things he did to her on zipping her dress on stage and silly things.

[11:27] WALTER WILLISON: Um, but I had Joe, and Joe was out of town, I called Marty Charn, and Marty would give me some advice.

[11:32] WALTER WILLISON: Um, so that went on for nine months, and then this thing happened.

[11:38] WALTER WILLISON: Um I told you I'd met Leonard Bernstein on opening night too by tourist.

[11:43] WALTER WILLISON: So I get this call saying, Lenny wants you to come up to his apartment at the Dakota after the show tomorrow night and have dinner with him.

[11:51] WALTER WILLISON: Casual.

[11:52] WALTER WILLISON: Yeah, my agent Edie called and said that.

[11:54] WALTER WILLISON: Now, see, and you have to understand that in those days, unlike today, it was not uncommon for celebrities or producers or directors who wanted to meet something to call your agents and say, Hey, I'd like to meet that actor, send him over.

[12:07] WALTER WILLISON: And you would go to their apartment or for dinner or whatever you did.

[12:10] WALTER WILLISON: So it wasn't like or lunch, you know.

[12:12] WALTER WILLISON: Sure, right.

[12:13] WALTER WILLISON: It wasn't like today, it would kind of people would think, well, that's strange, or calling my agent because they want to meet me for dinner, you know.

[12:19] WALTER WILLISON: But it was not like a weird thing.

[12:21] WALTER WILLISON: Anyway, so I go to the Dakota after the show, and um, and he had we have dinner, and he says, Well, I've written this piece for you, and it's called The Mass, and it's gonna open the Kennedy Center.

[12:35] WALTER WILLISON: And I've written I wrote the role of the celebrant for you, but because I was a musical comedy guy, they thought I'll never hold up eight shows a week because it's an opera.

[12:45] WALTER WILLISON: So they thought, so they they've cast Alan Titus.

[12:48] WALTER WILLISON: So I've written this other song for you, which is the second, like it's a big song called I Don't Know, It's a Big Confession.

[12:54] WALTER WILLISON: And he said, and then you'll you'll understudy Alan.

[12:57] WALTER WILLISON: Would you do that?

[12:58] WALTER WILLISON: So I said, Of course, right?

[12:59] WALTER WILLISON: So he sits at the piano, he says, I wrote this for you.

[13:01] WALTER WILLISON: And he plays simple songs.

[13:03] WALTER WILLISON: And I'm like, Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.

[13:06] WALTER WILLISON: And then he plays the other song he wrote for me.

[13:08] WALTER WILLISON: And it's like, can you imagine? I mean, I no, I cannot imagine. I used to lie to get out of my house to go see West Side Story when I was in high school because I saw the movie six times in a row. You're in the Dakota, you're in Bernstein's apartment, he's at his own piano, he's playing a song he wrote for you. I mean, I don't know, like tick it all off. That's pretty incredible. It's pretty incredible. And um, and then we go into rehearsal, and the very first day of rehearsal, there's this he introduces everybody, and he says he says something really. I have a recording of it. I found a little cassette recording and I had it running. And he says, We have great stars in this show, like WALTER WILLISON and David Cryer, and then he's interested.

It was like an Alan Titus from opera, you know, so he always gave me like equal time with Alan. He was really sweet in that way. The first break, he and Gordon Hunt, who are directing, come up to me and say, Well, um, we want to ask you about something. Um, we decided that Alan can't do eight shows a week either. So we're gonna alternate you. Would you do that? And which was incredible because there were 22 Broadway people in the cast, and there were like 11 solos for the Broadway people. Mind you, there was also the Berkshire Boys Choir and a gigantic choir and the Alvin Ailey dancers. There were like 200 people in the show. I swear. 200 people. And so he said, So the Broadway people, you either had your solo or you were just in the ensemble.

They switch back and forth. In my case, I would either do my big solo, it's sort of the anti what he represents, which is Jesus or Kennedy, whatever you have or you want to see it, um, but a religious leader and um spiritual leader. So it's an incredible show. It's an incredible show. It's about you know, it's about a man who, a kid who's a boy playing a guitar, singing that song that the people kind of follow. And then every time he tries to teach them something, which it's spaced like a Catholic mess, he has to put on some accoutrement because he needs power, right? And he keeps getting more power, and he puts on more crap and more crap and more crap. And finally at the end of the show, and he every time he does a number of people have an answer for it.

He's at the top of this gigantic staircase. He's completely in like robes and talus and everything and all these things, and the people are just screaming and fighting, and my other character is like you know, screaming, I don't know. How do you do this? And everybody's doing this whole fantastic Leonard Bernstein thing. And I'm at the top of the staircase, and finally he screams and he goes mad, and he has this mad scene that's like Rose's turn. It's incredible. Then disappears into the orchestra pit. And the people left alone, they go, Well, now what do we do? We don't have a leader. What do we do? And they have to find it in themselves. They start singing a piece, though, and they find, they connect with each other and find their spirituality in each other.

And then of course he reappears as one of the people again. So it's a killer role. The first four performances, the first week, I think we did three or four performances. That was all like the Kennedy, the Kennedys and all the politicians. My first performance was the first performance the following week, which was a Wednesday matinee, and all the Broadway people came, like Hal Prince, Stephen Sondheim, you know, Ethel Merman, and I mean Keith Baxter, who was in Sleuth at the time, and all my friends. It was like, can you imagine? I mean, like, it was like incredible. At Kennedy Center, which it just oh, it had never it opened. We rehearsed, we couldn't find rehearsal half the time because you were looking around for the it was so huge, and it was under construction.

So this opening night happens, and this is Leonard Bernstein, kind of in a nutshell. So, you know, everybody bows, and then I have the final bow, and I take my final bow, and they're standing up, and I'm like, oh my God, crying, and these people are here, all my idols. And I indicate the conductor, wonderful Maurice Perez, and he bows. And then what you're supposed to do when you play the celebrant is go, oh look, there's Lenny. And he's like in the presidential box, and then he bows to the audience, and then he goes, Oh, all right. And he, I will run down to the stage. He leaves the box, he runs down the side of the stage, the entire side of the theater, runs up on stage and like kisses 200 people, you know, as he's coming along, and he finally gets to me in the center, and he's like holding his arm around me and going to the audience and making gestures and goes, Isn't he brilliant?

Isn't he brilliant? Oh my god, oh my god, I'm a god. Then he hugs me and he whispers in my ear and said, Oh my god, it's the first time I've cried since opening night. You know, you really don't know that last song. We have to rehearse it. Like on stage while you're hugging. In my ear, while the audience is standing, while I'm crying, while he's just said, Isn't he brilliant? Isn't he brilliant? He's like, You're brilliant. But we gotta rehearse that last song. You don't quite know it. And then he lets me go and goes back to look at the audience saying, Isn't he brilliant? Oh my god. It was that's that's amazing. That's it. Can you imagine? Couldn't wait till we got on stage. Couldn't like and then let me see.

You want to hear what's next? Pippin is Pippin next. No, actually, I came back and did a show immediately, went into a show called Wild and Wonderful. Yeah, which was neither Was it Wild and Wonderful? No, but the sad thing is Julie Budd was originally going to be my leading lady, who was incredible. She was like, you know, 20 years old, she was a kid. Well, I was a kid too. And um, and it was an interesting show because it was a show where the cast all supported each other and knew what everybody we'd have meetings and say, you know, Julie needs another song. You know, WALTER needs another song. Somebody else would say it. It wasn't like you were fighting for yourself, but it was a show where like the director wanted to be the star, the choreographer wanted to be the star, the musical director wanted to be the star, and then none not the director, Bertie Frederick, she was great, but the poor cast was kind of left floundering, except it was a great cast.

Um, Ted Thurston, Larry Small, um, and Julia left before we opened, and a wonderful girl named Laura McDuffie replaced her. It was one of those shows that I got like this incredible review from Clive Barnes that was like so it was he in those days that when they panned a show, they used to really do it well. They didn't just do some nasty review, you know. Um he said something like WALTER WILLISON, I remember this one right. Of course, you remember. He said he throws in the kitchen sink, the dishwasher. No, to say nothing of the garbage disposal. And even he can't make it work. And if he can't make it work, nobody can. Now come on. I'll take that. I mean, come on, right? So, but uh in that show, the second day rehearsal, I'm laying on a bench.

Uh no, uh like a yeah, it was not a bench, it was like a trunk on stage during a break, and this girl is dancing around, waving her hands behind her, you know. And I said, she'd been in Coco, and I said, My God, I said, You're the perfect Fosse dancer you've ever worked with Fossey. And she said, Oh no, but I really love to, right? So um, jumping ahead, because I'll tell you how it happened, but jumping ahead um the first day of rehearsal, I walk into Pippin, and I had out of and the I would there was rehearsing the chorus in the you know room because the dances had started like a couple weeks early, and the door opens for the break, and out comes Ann Reinking saying, Oh my god, you told me a year ago we should I should work with Fosse and I were both working together, and you're covering Pippin and I'm covering Catherine.

Is that like incredible? So um how I got how Pippin happened was Bobby said in the papers he wanted a male Liza Manelli, right? So I'm reading this and thinking, hmm, that was that was kind of like that. Um and but I really didn't have any desire to work with Fossey. I didn't have any desire to do it. I thought it was a dance show, which it was, and um, but I thought it was pretty cool. So there were these items in the column, like Ray Harris and somebody else, some Sue would Sue May, not Sue Mangers, that's the agent, Sue, um, whatever her name was. They were, oh, he wants a male Liza Millie, so obviously WALTER WILLISON's gonna do this part. I had an audition for the part. And then he even talked at one point about Liza having playing it herself as a boy.

Oh, wow. And um, so but then I did the um, they called me out of the blue and said, Would you do the table read? So I did the first table read with people who didn't end up in the show, Marilyn Sokel playing Catherine and um oh that wonderful character woman playing Irene's part. And um, you know, that we read the script and and Steve played it, and it was very much then scene by scene, and it was kind of more camelot, you know, like traditional musical theater, traditional musical theater, same songs, yeah, but Bobby was sitting there and Stuart Oster was sitting there and thanked Julie. Bobby meaning Bob Fosse. Yes, Bob Flossy. So Julie, Julie has the one that called me, and afterwards I said, you know, this is a good part.

Maybe I like to do this after all. And she said, Well, she said, you know, we just cast John Rubinstein, this new kid, John Rubinstein, who you know, there's a group of people you know as kids like Nikki and Judy, and my group of people was John Rubinstein and Judy Kay, you know, and um the three of us and a couple other people that ended up and are still friends to this day. So Johnny got the partner that's done. But then I read in the paper, I was standing in my, I remember vividly. I opened up the paper, and there was this little article saying, Irene Ryan cast to play Granny and Pippin. And I thought, oh God, I really want to work with her. I love the Beverly Habilities, I love her. And I thought I really want to work with her, but you know, it's cast.

Well, then I get a call saying, Will you do, will you stand by? And in those days, you have to understand standby is different from understudy. Because in those days it was really cool, and I think they still do it somewhere, some shows. If you're an understudy, you choose to be somebody in the show or somebody that stays at the theater all night, um, or swing or whatever. A standby, they hire you. You show up once you do you rehearse through the rehearsal period, just show up once a week to do a run through, and the rest of the time you're home, you go wherever you want. All you have to do is call them at 6:30 and say, Oh, I'll be in throw C watching a show at this other theater, or I'll be having dinner at my friends.

No cell phones, right? You just had to let them know where they could find you if you had to go on that night. Um, so it was also great because there were two rehearsal studios, and Bobby liked to rehearse in both studios. Uh so one would usually be the dancers, and the other would be the acting scenes. So, like Irene's scene, I only Johnny ever did it till the run through because that was stage with me. Um, and then he was because he was busy working on the big dance number in the other room. So I was lucky because I also got to rehearse, right? Yeah, which usually you don't get to. Once we got to Boston, it would or Washington, it was different, but there you got to rehearse. It was great.

So um, so what happened in Pippin? Pippin was really good that I was cast because of Irene Ryan. She hadn't been in New York in like 30 years, and they left her alone. I mean, the first day of rehearsal, they say, Here, go down to the village and get your shoes fixed, and she's 72, which seemed very old back then when you're 22. 72 was much older in 1972. That's true. Yeah, so um, so we became great friends, and we hung out together all the time. We had dinner after the shows, you know. We did she was just the most incredible loving, supporting woman, and she would get an ovation for that number that lasted like six minutes, and I have it on tape. I mean, she really literally broke because she was so full of love and just so full of of joy.

She was an incredible, incredible person. And um there's also this legend that I would like to clear up because you read on gossip columns, oh, Irene Ryan died on stage. And then you read all these people saying, Oh, she had a stroke and I saw it. Well, they didn't because she didn't die on stage. Um, in fact, what happened is that weekend she was supposed to go home on Sunday to spend a couple days in California at her home because she missed it. She'd been in the show for six months. Um she started having some weird problems that week. Uh I think she called me on Thursday and said she was waiting for her limo, and and it was Thursday. She thought it was Wednesday. And and then she called me Saturday morning and said, Honey, I can't make it.

Can you come over? And she was staying at the windows. So friend of mine, Margaret Cowia, who's in, she was in um what um went on the the show. Cried the beloved country. Lost from the stars. Yes, that's it. So she was getting ready to do, yeah, she was getting, yeah. So anyway, she'd been in that. So she came over and we got Irene to the theater, and I said, We better stick around today. Let's take the car and just have lunch or whatever, and then come back. So um went out, you know, because I wasn't on that day. Um and oh, I didn't even tell you when I first went on. That was really cool. Or did I? I said it last time, right? That the first time, yeah.

[26:17] WALTER WILLISON: The changed my life knowing Lucy Arnez, she was incredible, did really. Did really um so anyway, um, she goes on, and I come back after the show, and the stage manager says, WALTER, something's wrong with Irene. She she didn't do any of her moves. She just stood there, and I the numbers still stopped the show, but the boys basically ad-libbed around her, the choreography, because she just stayed in one place. And I was Irene, honey, what did you do? What happened? And um, and she said, I did my number, it stopped the show. I said, Did you do all your moves? Yeah. So I thought, hmm, something's wrong. So I called her manager, he said, You tell her she doesn't do the tonight night show tonight.

She gets in the plane right now. I want her home. Took her took her, packed her up, took her to the airport, um, put her on a plane, and two days later she was in the hospital, and they found out she had a brain tumor, aneurysm, brain tumor, whatever. And um, nobody knew. They wouldn't tell anybody in the show. Ostra didn't want to tell the press because he didn't want anybody, he didn't want to lose ticket sales, and she was in the hospital dying. They knew after the operation she was never coming back to the show. I knew it. Oster knew it, Bobby knew it. Nobody else knew it. The public didn't know it, the cast didn't know it. They they didn't even say on the Tonies, we wish you good luck, you know.

And she was nominated for Tony, and Australia wondered, he said when she left, he said, Can you get back in time for the Tonies? Because all the you know, voters will be coming in the next two weeks. The Tonies were earlier then, they were like back in May. Um, April and May. I think May, I guess. And uh no, when was St. Patrick's Day? April. So it is April, May, yeah. So um, so anyway, she lost the Tony, she died, but she was incredible and fantastic, and what a way to go. Yeah, and she did something incredible. She always did a lot of incredible things. Opening night of Pippin. I didn't want to go to the party at Sardi's because I wasn't in the show. I was standing in the back watching it.

And my agent at the time was Ed Robin said, You have to go. You can't not go. You have to go to the opening night party. So I went, and I was sitting at a table with Ed and some friends, and two tables away was Irene with her press agent Frank Lieberman and his wife Pat Lieberman, Pat Harris Lieberman, and her manager Kingsley Colton. And Pat comes over to me and says, Oh, Irene tells me you're really great in the show. And I said, Well, thank you very much. You know, I thank you, you know. And um, that was Tuesday night. Wednesday morning, my agent calls me, and I have an offer to go to Hollywood to star in a TV series called The Magician to play the juvenile. Wow. Thursday, Millie Gussie, the head of M of uh of Paramount Casting, comes back, interviews me, we talk about the script, and offers me a seven-year contract for Am Fred Paramount with development deals.

You know, if you just do it this long, and you every if that series didn't work out, another one, and every year it went up, which Irene said was a great contract, great offer, um, beginning with that series. But the condition was they wanted me to come out like a couple um, I can guess the next week for a couple days for a makeup test. And of course, the show had just opened, you know, and they said there's no way he can get out there for two days and then fly back. And but this, and they said, okay, we'll skip the makeup test. He just needs to be here for the first day of filming, which was in three weeks. Right. I had out of town negotiated my contract down from two years to getting a month out.

Ostro wouldn't let me out of my contract. I said, But you have to replace me anyways. But the show just opened. What happened if you know Johnny gets sick? I said, he won't get sick. Yes, but you I said, so three weeks, four weeks, what's the big difference? You know, but he wouldn't let me out of the contract. I told Johnny never knew this. I told him like a couple years ago when he was doing a weekend. He said, Why didn't you just walk? He said, I would have walked for that for a seven-year contract, screw it. But you know, whatever. And it was a good thing because of that. I was there for Irene, and I could be there to help her when she needed it. So there's a higher purpose for everything.

But good stuff happens and other good stuff happens, and better stuff happens when when what you think you wanted, like the Rothschilds. When I didn't get the Rothschilds, what do I get? Two by two. Exactly. So yeah, sorry in my life. So then I went to LA.

[30:45] Kevin David Thomas: So you did go to LA.

[30:46] WALTER WILLISON: Oh, wow. Yeah, I let Pippin. I left six months later. Um, left Pippin, went to LA. Um, had a first thing I did was wonderful Lee Theodore, who was the original Anybody's and West Side Story. Dance Machine, right? Yes, American Dance Machine. She was doing a commercial that was a musical, and she always thought I was a dancer, even though I always danced as a kid and all these things. I never studied, I just danced, right? So she asked me to play like this Gene Kelly in this takeoff of say this little, and then it's on YouTube to a 60-second commercial, a musical with like all the people in California who were hot at the time. You don't have power played the Debbie Reynolds sort of character, and I was sort of the g and we danced around and we sing this big song, and it it we ended up getting this big, like what the Clio for best commercial.

And it was directed by Bob Giraldi, who's true, he became the director of Thriller, Michael Jackson. What was the product? How do you think it's thriller, and became one of the Commonwealth has? Oh, this is the cool thing. How do we look it up on YouTube? Look it up as bank. Look at it, me and Judana Power. Look up Bang or Bang, I think it's WALTER WILLISON and Yudown Power or Bank of the Commonwealth. Okay, good. The cool thing is um this is funny. It was originally gonna be singing in the rain, was like the song, right? Yeah. That they were gonna use. Right. But they couldn't get the rights. So they decided to use a Noel Coward song instead. So they used I'll be seeing you. So we were doing like a kind of takeoff on singing in the rain, at least stylistically, but singing lyrics about a bank to an old coward song. It's like, take, take my advice, my dear. Deposit your savings right here. Bank of the commonwealth has the big umbrella. Nothing could be swell. Oh, wow.

[32:35] Kevin David Thomas: So no, it's no, it was a great, great, great.

[32:42] WALTER WILLISON: Hey, podcast listeners, are you looking for a place to rehearse in New York City that is clean, spacious, and most importantly, affordable? Come check out Shetler Studios and Theatres, our wonderful host for these podcasts. Shetler is centrally located on West 54th Street between Broadway and Eighth Avenue, right in the heart of the theater district. Right in the heart, you'll find music, dance, and acting studios complemented by two black box theaters and six presentation venues. The professional facilities, inspired environment, and expert industry staff combined to provide the New York artist with an unparalleled studio experience. Visit their website at Shetler Studios.com. That's S-H-E-T-L-E-R-Studios.com. Shetler Studios and Theatres is our home for recording the legends of Broadway, and we hope that you make it your artistic home too. That's Shetler, S-H-E-T-L-E-R-Studios.com. See you here.

[33:38] WALTER WILLISON: Then I got the series, which is like a dream. Because it was also one of those parts. Every part I ever got, which people should know, people said you're wrong for it. You know, and they wanted like who they went, Donald O'Connor went in. And they I think Donnie Most was my up for it. They went somebody short or whatever. Yeah. But I got it. And it was great. It was called McDuff the Talking Dog. And it was about a 200-year-old ghost sheepdog that only the ghost that I only I can see and that talks to me. And I'm a vet, and I live in a farm with a housekeeper who thinks I'm crazy and a little sister. And there's a banker, Gordon Jump, who's trying to steal and his assistant who are trying to steal the farm.

So it was sort of the Beverly Hillbillies meets topper. Okay. Is what it was. It really was. And the effects were by the people who did I Dream of Genie. They we had incredible. And it was on film. It was the last TV Saturday morning series done on film until like Pee-Wee Herman, like years later, like 10 years later, whatever. And um the thing that was, and it was great, it was really great to be in it. And um, so we get the highest ratings of anything. They keep moving the time stop, but we're getting these incredibly high ratings. This is Hollywood. We're getting the incredible high ratings, even outranking the late night shows, even though they're switching us around. And then they changed heads of programming at NBC. And the producer called me and said they're canceling the show. Wow. Unprecedented. Yeah. So you know, we did one season and that was it, but it was great.

[35:04] Kevin David Thomas: So what happened after you picked up?

[35:06] WALTER WILLISON: Did some shows of the Mayfair with Marsha Lewis? Oh, lovely. Wonderful Marsha Lewis did a lot of stock. Worked at the Muni. Did um well, first thing I did there was Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. With Leslie Easterbook, who ended up in the police story movies, and she was on Laverne Chile playing Snow White because she was very tall. Me as Prince Charming, and we had real, real little people playing the little people, you know, real dwarves playing dwarves. But famous ones like Jerry Marin, who was in The Wizard of Oz. Oh my gosh. Yeah, and uh and Felix Sella, who was on uh Buck Rogers TV show. Like the most famous, they were incredible men. They were just incredible. And Les I was staying at the big hotel.

Leslie was staying for some reason at a motel, and so were the seven dwarfs, the seven men. And so every day, the can you imagine people in the lobby would see this woman leaving to get a limo with seven little men following her? It was but but this is we became friends. Actually, my dad, who like my dad was great. My dad didn't care if you were, you know, Lucio Ball or or the you know he loved he talked to everybody and loved everybody, and he was always interested in the people, the pretty much people weren't talking to. And he loved these guys, and he became really friendly with them, and he ended up, he was a car salesman. He was the fleet manager for Chevrolet Dealer, won awards the highest ranking fleet manager in the United States for many, many years.

And he would have special cars made for these, they had special cars, so the pedals were very high. Wow. So yeah, and we I did golf tournaments with that. We were great guys. So that was incredible. It was gonna be Disney's first Broadway show. And then for various reasons, they instead truncated it from because Jay Black then had written additional songs, it was great. And they I wrote a real white charger, by the way. And um, they had they had truncated it, and then they ended up doing Radio City with like again, people, little people wearing big heads instead of instead of real people, real actors. And it was fine, but it wasn't it wasn't what we did that was really good. It was really good.

Anyway, um did South Pacific, that my dad's favorite show. I did a lot of South Pacifics. Yeah, did it for Josh Logan. I was working on an original musical with Josh Logan that he was writing back in the 70s. We became great, great friends. And so I was sort of in the 70s, the go-to guy for South Pacific did it with Mary Travers doing her first ever musical, and she was terrific. And Jerome Hines and it and Ken Page was his first job. He was Stupa. And my dad loved this production because of course it's a Muni. It's like you really have Bally High. I heard about it from Ken. Yeah, you really have Bally High. And for some reason, my dad said, How did they do that thing in the second act? When they say the planes are taking off, an actual plane flies over the theater.

Well, it was just an accident. It just happened that the plane leaving off at the airport in St. Louis that happened to shoot over the theater. The planes are taking off, and a real plane flew over. So it was an incredible experience.

[38:06] Kevin David Thomas: Were you living on the West Coast?

[38:07] WALTER WILLISON: Living on the West Coast. Well, I started some of them when I was back. The first one it's Snow White, I did between between two by two and Pippen. But the other ones I you know was on the West Coast to do. Flew back to do the 25th anniversary of South Pacific with Oh my God. Sitting at a table at the Players Club, and they never let women in before, but sitting on the main, and Josh basically told stories, and then we would do scenes from the show. The cast was Nancy Dassault, as annoying, Jerome Hines, myself, a woman named Nancy King, Zefendor's Leot, and some of the original CBs. Um and at the table for dinner before, I sat with it was Richard Rogers, Dorothy Rogers, James Mitchner, his wife Maori Richner, Joe Meltziner, Josh Logan, Netta Logan.

It was like, oh my God. You know, it was like just incredible. I got to do it again for Josh's tribute that you know, see, you know, today I do a lot of gallows and tributes and benefits. I'm like to the direct them and I'm in them and whatever. Back then, I was the new kid on the block. So I got to do these shows that Anna Senko produced with and down with Donald Saddle directing and Colin Romoff with like Mary Martin and Ethel Merman. We did a Rogers one with everybody who ever did a Richard Rogers show, and Mary Martin was the headliner.

[39:26] WALTER WILLISON: We did one for Josh with like again, everybody. We did a South Long South Pacific segment with Betsy Palmer and Ray Walston. You know, I mean, we did everybody and Ethel Merman did the big finish. And we did one for, oh, we did one for um George Abbott, Mr. Abbott, with um Liza and Sherla McLean and Cannon Ebb, you know. Oh wow. I got to sing his favorite song, Artificial Flowers. And I got to sing some of the time my son of Osado danced to ballet. It was incredible. At the time I used to think, God, all these people know each other because they all were friends. And I can't wait till I'm older and they'll know me better, you know, and I'll be like part of this. Well, they all died, yeah. You know, I mean, and now, but then you realize I've been doing these.

I was on stage once and I was watching Leroy, watching Heather McRae we've known since we were kids, and going, oh my God, we are those people. We are now those people. So um that's wild. Yeah. Even in LA, we did an incredible gala for um for Anthony Newley and Leslie Bricas, and they gave me this song to introduce, which I introduced on national television. This was like with, you know, my god, Florence Henderson, Tony Newley, Tony Bennett, whose favorite song is I Do not know a dad didn't love you. Really? It is, he will tell you that to this day. His favorite love song is I do he's the he covered it, you know what he does. He's favorite song. So we did this great Inc. John Davidson, everybody's in this gal, and they gave me this song that I got to introduce from their newest show, which so I was the first one on national TV on a show called Celebrity Review that was syndicated to sing this beautiful song called A Song Called Love, which was written for Peter Pan.

And guess who the star of it was? Danny Kay Peter Pan. Oh my gosh. And Mia Farrow sang the song, but I got to sing it first, so which was lovely. And when I saw two and Tony backstage, he said, you know, I know what you went through with two by two, because Danny Kaye thought Peter Pan was called Captain Hook. Uh uh. So they had he has more songs than her, I think, in the show. But uh, yeah, I almost did good old battle days with Tony too and and Britt whenever they were going to do it in New York. But another show that never got produced. Um so, yeah, they were ready to do it in New York. Um, yeah, very quickly. Um, at the end of the 70s, I was working on a musical based on a William's property.

And because of it, because of Lucy Arnaz being in an elevator with Audrey Wood when she was auditioning for Any Get Your Gun. I had written the script for this musical. I wasn't originally supposed to write it, somebody else wrote the score, somebody else wrote it, and then I we my partner and I took it over. We had written a film called Fantasies, which starred Bo Derek, became a big art film in Europe. Um, and I sing songs and that. And so I was writing this show, and I let Lucy read the script and said, Oh my God, you have to write this. She's in an elevator with Audrey Wood. Audrey Wood is the agent who discovered William Inge, Arthur Miller, William Gibson, Robert Anderson. She was the playwright's agent back in the day, and she was with ICM.

She became my agent. So I was really blessed because Edie Van Cleve had been my first agent. Now Audrey Wood was my literary agent, right? So in working on that, it didn't, the show obviously went through many, many things and hasn't happened maybe yet. But I ended up in Independence, Kansas, William Inge's hometown in 1980 with the for the Niwala and for the opening of the Inge archives. Because I'd met his sister in California. His sister had this garage filled with all these boxes all in Greece and said, Will this help you in your research? And I said, My God, put them all together, put labels, figured out what went with what, put you know, and they ended up being the beginning of this William Inge Library.

And Margaret Goheen said, We want to do something to honor William Inge. But we don't know what to do, maybe a playwrighting contest. And I said, Jerome Lawrence will know what to do. And I had met Jerry because George Oppenheimer invited me to lunch in New York and said, When you go to California, you have to meet Jerome Lawrence. He became like a mentor to me as a writer and an actor. He was a good root friend. So I said, Jerry will know what to do. So we all got together and created the William Inge Festival, which to this day, 38 years later, is it through 560, yeah, 6'7, I think it's 38. Um honors our greatest living American playwrights and composers and lyricists. You know, in the beginning we did Robert Anderson, we did Gars and Canaan, we did um William Gibson, Lawrence and Lee, obviously, more recently, um Jones and Jones and Schmidt, you know, and Susan Watson and I were in that one, and and we did um Bach and Harnik, which was really incredible.

It was Susie Watson and Rita Gardner. It was great. And yeah, and we did we've done Michelle Panc went back, we did Chris Durang. And so I go back occasionally, like for the twenty, I was there for the 35th anniversary, and uh everybody should know about this. It's like a really great thing. They have seminars a week, it's like five days of seminars and plays and workshops, and it's a great thing. So I'm very proud of that. Then I went, but then I did a little show in California. The first show I wrote called Front Street Gaieties, was very successful, came back to New York, and this producer said, We want you to do Front Street Gaieties in this space. Looked at the space and said, This is not right.

This should be a speakeasy. So I wrote the uh Broadway scandals of 1928. And cool story. Sunday I decided to write this show and think if I could just talk to Ruby Keeler, but I haven't seen Ruby Keeler in since two by two, and she had an operation, you know. And two days later, I get a call from the Ziegfeld girls saying, We're doing a gala, would you host it? And um Ruby Healer's gonna be the guest star. Wow. So Ruby told me the dish. I put it in the show, and she hosted opening night. The reason that happened was because I skipped something. There's this movie in California called Ziegfeld, The Man and His Women did that, um, which was my dream because it was like an MGM musical, you know, Ingus Swenson, Ron Husman, all these people play the stars.

You know, Catherine Jacobi. We all played the, who's now Laura Parker, we all, and Pam Pedon, we all played the Ziegfeld stars. It's like the biography with all these musical numbers. And I almost didn't get it because at the time I had switched agents, and the agents said, There's no part for you. There's no part for you. And I said, Yes, there is. It says here, they went to Matinee Idol. I got a review saying that from the Mayfer. I must do the show. So, no part for you. I sent a letter to the casting director, delivered at hand delivered, because I knew him, and I said, Al Honorado, this, you know, I would love to audition for this. Here's my review. Next day at 10 o'clock, the agent calls and says, How dare you contact a casting director directly?

I told you there's no part for you, but they want to see you tomorrow at 10 o'clock. So I went in. The producer. Yeah, the producer, my uh Mike Frankovich, and Miriam Nelson choreographing it, and Buzz Coolig directing it, and Tad Tadlock assistant, and they said, you know, we always envisioned you in this part from the beginning. We had you in mind, and we couldn't figure out well, you weren't coming in to audition. We thought you didn't want to do it. So the part's yours. But first, we have to get approval from Irving Berlin. Oh. Because I was singing a pretty girl is like a melody, and he had approval over my Frank Carter, who played Marilyn, who was Marilyn Miller's husband. So we did it was they did a video, overnight it to Irving Berlin in New York when you actually had a pouch that went overnight and arrived the next day.

And Irving Berlin said yes. He said, I want him to play the part. So I never got to meet him, but by long distance, he gave me his blessing. I love that. I'll take that. Yeah, I know. Pretty good, right? Yeah. So come back to New York because of Larry Kurt. I came back to New York for a visit, ran into Larry Kurt at a Canternet benefit. So, what are you doing? And I said, I really want to come back to New York. He said, Well, I'm doing a show at the uh St. Regis about Irving Berlin with Andrew McArdle and Terry Burrell and um Debbie Shapiro. But I'm leaving for a couple months to take a vacation. It was called They Say It's Wonderful. You should take over for me. And they had already hired Harry Growner, but he got them to actually give Harry Groner another show, and I replaced Larry.

Wow. And get this. Got to light the Christmas tree in Matt in Rockefeller Center in a sled with Andrew McCardle and Terry and Debbie singing a medley of you know White Christmas and it's happy holidays. This is on YouTube, you can see it. I mean, could you imagine coming back to New York? It's kind of a big way to come back to New York, right? And again, Irving Berlin. So that happened and scandals, and then did lots of carousels and carnival, my favorite show, and sure. And lots of you know regional theater. And I told you I'd met Tommy Toon in the last time. Yes, in the last one, yeah. And he said we're gonna do the show and had dinner, and you know, when people a lot of people say, Oh, a late, I you know, there might be something for you in it, but of course then you never hear again.

Well, six months later, I get the phone call. I had that wonderful audition and did the show. Now, Grand Hotel was the most incredible experience because it was a really creative process. Tommy didn't cast, you know, here's the third chorus girl from the left and whatever, and just I'll give you dances and be anonymous. He cast all people for the most part, there were a couple people that were newcomers, but for the most part, they were people who had real credits and he knew would really make something out of whatever they had to do, like Ken Jennings, who had done you know, Sweeney Todd and had that huge part and been brilliant as Tobias. You know, he had like one line in the show, but he was brilliant as a bell boy because the can the thing is we were all on stage for the whole show.

We all had to be alive, we all had to we created our own characters, we named our own characters, and we all made our backstories up, and we interacted. So when you were watching the action in the center of the stage, there was all this stuff going on on the surround, as we called it. Consequently, one day you'd have a big part, the next day it would be smaller. It was like bigger, smaller, because he had to get the show focused, right? Kathy Moss, who was did be Italian in nine, you know, had that little part, but she had a consistent through line. When people do the show today, they don't get it. Because each of those characters, even like there were four operators that had like a couple lines, and Lynette Perry, who took over for Jane, was one of those.

They had a through line. So all these people that might not have had lines, you saw 30 people, but you saw 30 stories. Yeah. And we were playing scenes, you know, in the round. It was it was and because of that, I think, with maybe one exception. Um, who we don't who we have, well, the original we've all become very close and remained very, very close. You know, we came together for our and it was incredible. We we did the Tonies, we did the Macy's Parade, but we we stay together, and if anybody needs anybody, doesn't matter if you haven't seen each other for two or three years, like our anniversary was yesterday, everybody's emailing everybody. Why do you think that is? Why why this show? You know, because we all done tons of shows, and we've all had good families, but like well, because of Tommy, because Tommy Toon is brilliant, and he sees talent, and he would come up to you on stage and say, I don't know what you're doing, but do it.

You know, I love what you and Kathy are doing here on the surround. He's brilliant at casting, he has an eye for talent, and he lets he let you be creative. He he's not just like okay, walk here, walk there, you know. He really lets you be creative, and we became he called us the Berliner Ensemble after the Blue Hunter Ensemble in Berlin, and we became very, very tight. Um, and then you know, we became I over the years, some of us have worked together when Kathy Moss was very ill. We did a big we got together, and you call everybody and they show up. Yeah, we I combined nine in Greece and Grand Hotel, and we did a big galloph, and Kathy watched on Skype because she was in the hospital, you know, very ill.

And we did all our big numbers, and I mixed them all up, and it was incredible night. I mean, Lilian was in a Karen Acres and a Shelley Birch, all the nine girls, you know, were in it was just an incredible night. So we come together when we did the 25th anniversary at Studio 54, which was one of my most favorite things ever in history. You know, you call them, they're all there, you know, and and the best thing about that, one of the well for me, apart from the fact that it was really I loved it, was um Lillian Montevecchi. I'd worked with her, you know, as an actor, and there was a certain group of people that we would have dinner together when the show was going on, you know. And uh, but and you know, maybe once in a while every two years, but you didn't I didn't seen her.

When I did that show, this woman was on my rock. She was at every rehearsal. When other people thought, because we were in a rehearsal room, we're not in the theater, but I was saying, you know, there's a little bench over there's a little table over here, and there's this over here, you're gonna be here. They thought they didn't half of them, I sure didn't know what the hell I was doing. She, if I had said Lilian, we stand on the roof and sing the song, she would have done it. She was my rock, and she was you saw it, she was in fucking credible. She was just everybody was, but she was phenomenal and the heart of the show. And consequently, we became very, very close the past three years, and very close because and I realized why Tommy Toon calls her his muse.

[52:40] WALTER WILLISON: Because she inspired him and she inspired me. You know. And what can I tell you? I mean, what do you want to know about? We were gonna do I'm her loss. I mean, her death is just pretty devastating to everybody. It's been really, really tragic. And there was talk. Doug Dennoff there was, he does want to do, he's talked about finding a space to do expand what we did at 54 and do a full production, but I haven't been able to find the space, so nothing is it needs to be revised. No, I can't even do it. It does, and well, because nobody gets it because you know, as I told you, all those things that are in the show, that interaction, they're not in the script. So they don't know why the scullery workers are there.

They have four guys sing a song, what maybe nobody listening knows because they're too young when you listen to the cast album. Their purpose is that I'm always falling down when I was played the scullery worker, then eventually I took over the Baron with Xena Beth Yoon. But initially I was a Scully worker, so I really know. They fall down, they are complaining, but at the end of the show, when they come in, suddenly they're singing in German, suddenly they put their crates down, they stand on their crates, and they're standing upright, and everybody else is making an exit through the door of the Grand Hotel. They're resolved, Tommy Resolved, all the little stories are being resolved as people go out, but they're walking around in a circle like the forgotten man scene in that movie in 1933, because the Nazi Party is rising, and it represents the rise of the workers.

Well, that's not in the script. So, unless you saw the original show or you have the Bible of the original show, people don't know. So I'm yeah, so a question for you, which is you know, you said the rehearsal process was very experimental. Um, when you said that you created a backstory for your character, did you have to sit down and share your backstory with everybody else? No. So it was just something for you to have, and it didn't have to be up for discussion. No, Tommy knew. And you were in a or unless we felt like it on the surround, we could talk about stuff. And you said we this was rehearsed in a ballroom? Is that right? Yeah, because Tommy had a dream. Um you know, it happens. Um sometimes you dream things that happen.

And he had this dream. First, he he he woke up in the middle of the night and Grand Hotel was on, and he saw, you know, um Garbo, and he said, This would make a great musical. And he called uh Morrison said, This would be a great musical for Lily On. And he called Jack Lee, and Jack said, Oh, right and forrest have already written it. Um, and then he had a dream, and he had dreamed about a space for that in the dream he heard a voice saying, This is a good place to make a show. So they're looking for a space for Grand Hotel, and he looks at all kinds of spaces, and they end up at the Diplomat Hotel Ballroom, and he walks in, and it's exactly what he had dreamed in the dream. Oh wow exactly. So that ballroom, if you see pictures of it, Tony Walton brilliantly designed the set.

So those four pillars, they are that's yeah, that's that's the ballroom. See, it's a brilliant, beautiful version of it, but that's the ballroom, you know, we rehearsed in. So we rehearsed in the space when we did it when we took our break and then came back in the fall to rehearse it. The set was the mock set was built on the stage of um we're halfway through the show anyway. Tommy did the workshop, went to the end of to the the love scene, and it stopped. That's as far as we got in the six weeks, and then we did the rest of it, and we were, but we rehearsed in a studio, but then we had the actual Richard Rogers Theater with that mock-up set on stage to work on. And then we saw the set in Boston, it was like, oh my God, it was brilliant.

Tony Walton, you know, who again he did Pippin. We did money things. I love Tony Walton. I just think and Santal LaQuesto. Oh my God. I mean, it was visually stunning. This is the other thing, good thing about Tommy. Tommy has an eye, he's also an artist. So he has a visual eye, not only for staging, you know, Mark Saltzman who did the movie Mrs. Santa Claus about with uh Angela Lansburg. I was talking to him last week, and he also was working on a show called 54 Studio 54 with Tommy. Again, they never were able to find a space, but they did it with the college in Florida, in Florida. And he said Tommy used to say, um, take away, take away, take away was this mantra, which is the same thing as Joe Layton saying, simple is best, simple is best, do nothing.

And so Tommy knew when to, you know, people tend to over choreograph the show because they think it's choreographed, they don't really, it's because it's constantly in movement, not necessarily choreography. The two ballroom dancers, Pierre and Yvonne, who did all their stuff, were in fucking credible, you know, and and we'll take a glass, and the show builds to that. But he's very, very specific and clear, and and you know, like I said, it was like a puzzle that had to be put together. So we it would change from day to day. Okay, here's a story of change that maybe people will relate to. You might want to use. Um, so the scullery workers had the have the opening number, some have, some have not, which is theoretically, Tommy said the theme of the show.

Yeah, because everybody's supposed to be rich, but they don't, they're not. And we think everybody's rich. So we sing this song. We did it in the workshop, he staged it in the workshop. We did it for six weeks. Then we come back in the fall. From the beginning of rehearsals, all through out of town, all through rehearsals back in New York, all through previews. He didn't change it. He had changed the entire show. Everything else is re-choreographed. He added the Charleston. There was no Charleston in the show originally. He added the Charleston. I think that happened out of town. No, it happened before we went out of town. But he added things, but change, change, change, change. And on a Wednesday night, before we're opening on Saturday, I said to the guys in the dressing room, because the four of us shared a dressing room, you know how lucky we are.

I said, everybody else, up to yesterday, everybody has changed, changed, changed. All the numbers are changed, new lyrics, new arrangements. Maury rewrote this. Today we're gonna work on your number. So I went, oh my God. So we spent all day going up from the pit, coming down this while, coming in, change the change, change. Add the people behind us. We finally ended up with a version, right? And I think now Thursday night, well, nothing else he can do now. All my security, you know. We now we have a new number to do on Saturday. Frank Rich is coming Saturday night. It's Thursday night, but okay, fine. This is what it is. And it was great. I mean, you did the right thing. Friday at 5 o'clock, we're sitting, having having a music rehearsal with Jack Lee in the basement.

I'm sitting on a metal chair, leaning back, you know. And Peter Stone comes in and says, Oh my God, oh my God, Moria's had this brilliant idea. You're gonna sing the finale in German. Now I literally fell over backwards in my chair and hit my head on the floor, like literally, it was, and I'm not, I wasn't joking. It just like, what? We go upstairs, he gives us the German translation, and now, but the thing is it doesn't scan the same. So now we have to sit on the edge of the orchestra pit at like six o'clock, 5 36 o'clock, the four of us. Now we have to sit there, and they have to reorchestrate the vocal to match the orchestration because you can't reorchestrate. And you see, the whole show is based around those four guys because all during rehearsal, they would give us stuff to sing and put the four harmonies, and then if it worked, they would add the other people, would pick it up and they would add all of us to it.

So but all the things were based around those four voices. So, which is um Henry Grossman, David Elledge and Bill Ryle, and myself. So now we have to change the whole thing and learn it in German. So, oh my god, oh my god. Mori Essence on the thing, we have a line every bum and bitch in all Berlin is rich except for us. It's chanted. It's now Yeah, Kerl und Bumle im Berlin aus Reich. And I hope I said that right. So um, I probably didn't, but he's saying it over the loudspeaker. We're in the dressing room, we have it written on our costume, we have it on our sleeves, we have it everywhere. To look, I'll look at this on stage, I'll know what that is. So we get on stage and we go on, and the first part we have to say, God, and we have to say monhat's manhat's nickname, which is somehow, some have not.

Well, we get through that because manhat's manhat's Mannhaxnik, Barum, which was fine. Then it starts, we're all on our benches, the Nazi Party rises, Tommy Toon is at the back of the theater, it's Friday night, Frank Rich is coming Thursday. Oh my god. And we all go, Yader Carol. Uh-oh. And I swear to God, it's like nothing is there. None of because we thought when one guy'll get it, the other will pick it up, somebody'll have it. I see Tommy slide down the balcony back banister at the back of the theater, oh my god. And I'm thinking, oh my God, I'm back on Broadway after what, you know, 19 years, here I am, and oh my god, I don't Frank Rich is coming, and I have not a fucking clue what to sing.

It was incredibly humiliating. But anyway, obviously, we did it the next day, and we did it that night, and it's on the record. And to this day, when I talk when I will talk to people after the show, he used to go and say, I tell them this story about learning the German, and they will say, Oh, and they didn't do that, right? And I say, Yeah, we sing it in German every night. I say, Oh, we just thought we couldn't understand it because of the sound system. But now you hear it on the record. You now you hear it on the record. Ain't that show business. We even got back together and did the record, you know, long after the show was done, and poor David passed away. And um here's another story about the record, about that section.

So there's um, we're all on stage, Peter Matz produced it, and he just, you know, David, David Um Elled and I are on one mic on stage left. The other two guys are stage right, and everybody's around us doing their thing. So we get to that section, and you have to chant Yader Kerolum Bumle im Belin, ausis reich, Also Uncis Right. Yeah, and you have so many of them, right? David Elledge and I do an extra one, and we go, we suddenly going, and we look at each other, our eyes are popping because we realize, oh my god, now we're supposed to be singing the other thing, and we're doing this, and everything. So we finish, and it's a great take. And more, and I said, Peter, uh, we maybe need to do that again because you know we did an extra thing that's not supposed to be there.

David and I said, Oh, don't worry, we'll fix it in the mix. It is the loudest thing I do on the entire record. Great. I'm gonna go back and listen now. They can always remember WALTER that way. Absolutely incredible. This has been so much fun. Oh my god, thank you so so much.

[1:03:59] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, wait, we'll get you, we'll get you back, I'm sure, for a third time. Maybe a big thing is happening.

[1:04:04] WALTER WILLISON: Yeah.

[1:04:04] Kevin David Thomas: And first of all, we have to tell our listeners, WALTER has brought us gifts. Um we've now got four CDs from WALTER. So this means WALTER is welcome back anytime he wants. We love gifts.

[1:04:14] WALTER WILLISON: We love gifts.

[1:04:16] Kevin David Thomas: But thank you so much for sharing so much with us. Um, it's such an incredible history.

[1:04:20] WALTER WILLISON: Yeah.

[1:04:20] Kevin David Thomas: Till next time. Bye, everybody.

[1:04:27] Robert W. Schneider: Today's episode was recorded at Shetler Studios on 244 West 54th Street. Visit Shatler Studios to book your room today, and you could be as cool as us. That's S-H-E-T-L-E-R-Studios.com.

[1:04:40] Robert W. Schneider: And a big thanks to our sound editor Daniel Schwartzberg and social media manager Bethany and Selecki.

[1:04:46] Robert W. Schneider: And friends, don't forget, we want more folks to hear these incredible stories, and that's where you guys can come in and help us out.

[1:04:52] Kevin David Thomas: Yes, in order for people to find out about us, we need lots of ratings on iTunes.

[1:04:56] Robert W. Schneider: The more ratings, the more they'll come up and search us.

[1:04:59] Kevin David Thomas: So head on over to iTunes, search for behind the curtain Broadway's Living Legends, click on our logo, click on ratings and reviews, then write a review and leave us five stars and make us feel as special as Eliza Doolittle on Eliza Doolittle Day.

[1:05:14] Robert W. Schneider: Or you can leave us one star and make us feel as bad as Annie did in that weird production in Boston where Annie dreamed about being adopted and then ended the show back in the orphanage.

[1:05:25] Kevin David Thomas: True story, Rob was there.

[1:05:27] Robert W. Schneider: I saw it. So head on over to iTunes and make us feel even more special than we already do.