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[0:00] Kevin David Thomas: Sit down, John.

[0:01] Robert W. Schneider: Sit down, John.

[0:03] Kevin David Thomas: For God's sake, John, sit out.

[0:05] Robert W. Schneider: Not so fast, John.

[0:06] Kevin David Thomas: I said that last night.

[0:07] Robert W. Schneider: Oh my god.

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[0:14] Robert W. Schneider: How does one do that?

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[0:30] Kevin David Thomas: Okay, after I do that, can I shoot some fireworks into the night sky?

[0:34] Robert W. Schneider: It's daytime, Rob.

[0:35] Kevin David Thomas: Go back to your throne, King George.

[0:36] Robert W. Schneider: Oh my god.

[0:37] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, I'm Robert W. Schneider.

[0:38] Kevin David Thomas: And I'm Kevin David Thomas.

[0:40] Robert W. Schneider: And this is Behind the Curtain Broadway's Living Legends.

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[0:56] Kevin David Thomas: What has our guest today not done?

[0:58] Robert W. Schneider: Okay, so here's a couple of things. She auditioned for Agnes Jamil, became a lifelong friend of Jerome Robbins, watched Mary Martin fly and Carol Channing descend the stairs, not to mention working for Fellini, helping films like The Last of the Mohicans come to fruition, and became a disciple of Stella Adler.

[1:14] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, her Broadway appearances include some of them High Button Shoes, Peter Pan, Hotel Paradiso, which we were just talking about, Jerome Robbins Ballet, USA, Sunday in New York, and Hello Dolly.

[1:25] Robert W. Schneider: And there are so many more things to talk about. Reuben Rubin, Mark Blitztein's Ruben Ruben, which we'll talk about.

[1:30] Kevin David Thomas: Okay, I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm so excited.

[1:33] Kevin David Thomas: To tell us what it was like to work with such legends as David Marriott, Phil Silvers, Maureen Stapleton, Marlon Brando, Burt Law, Goward Champion, Charles Nelson Reilly, so many more. Here is the original Tiger Lily and Miss Minnie Fay, the one and only SONDRA LEE.

[1:48] SONDRA LEE: Hello.

[1:48] Robert W. Schneider: Hello, SONDRA.

[1:50] SONDRA LEE: Sandra.

[1:51] Kevin David Thomas: Hello, Jack.

[1:52] SONDRA LEE: She's here and she's ready.

[1:53] Kevin David Thomas: Okay, SONDRA, I'm gonna ask you right from the get-go, what is the title of your autobiography?

[1:58] SONDRA LEE: Uh, it's called I've Slept With Everybody.

[2:01] Kevin David Thomas: Tell us.

[2:02] SONDRA LEE: So yeah, I was gonna say it's subtle.

[2:03] Kevin David Thomas: Subtle.

[2:03] SONDRA LEE: Lots of lots of lots of meaning in that.

[2:05] Kevin David Thomas: What does that mean, SONDRA?

[2:07] SONDRA LEE: Actually, what it means is not what it means. And so many people that have great, great writer friends have said, Oh, that's what I was gonna call my book, but they didn't. I did.

[2:19] SONDRA LEE: And when I was, you know, starting very, very young, when I was in High Button Shoes, which was my first show, and Jerome Robbins was just the choreographer at the time. Um, and oh, who's that wonderful old, wonderful director? George Abbott.

[2:38] SONDRA LEE: George. Yeah, nobody ever called him but Mr. Abbott. Nobody ever called David Merrick David. Mr. Merrick, and if they were, they were struck dead, is all I can say, because I've never known anyone who called him David.

[2:55] SONDRA LEE: Yeah, but anyway, to go back to just the title, people would say to me, you know, if you want a good manager and if you want a good agent, you know you've got to get in a bed with them. It was a show biz title. And I thought that's what I'm gonna call my book because I've had more agents, I've had more friends, I've had more experiences in the theater, more desires, and that's how the title got born.

[3:23] Kevin David Thomas: I love it. It's such a good book, too. So now we're gonna jump all the way back. Where'd you grow up?

[3:27] SONDRA LEE: Actually, I come from Newark, New Jersey. Yeah, and that's in my book as well, how I started. And actually, when I was a little kid, my Aunt Dinah came from a very poor family. My Aunt Dinah, who is a teacher, she took me to the Mosque Theater in Newark, New Jersey, and I saw Peter Pan.

[3:52] SONDRA LEE: And this is, I mean, you can't make this up. You can't. And what happened was that Peter was then on a rope that went flying through the air. And he said, Neverland, I'm going to Neverland. And I don't know, I was just a little kid. I got up and said, take me with you. And that's how it began.

[4:13] SONDRA LEE: And then we went to see the ballet. And I went backstage, the Ballarus de Monte Carlo. And the ballerina then was Alexandria Danilova. And I went backstage. I don't know how my aunt got me back there. And there she was, sitting on a trunk, eating a Hershey ball. This great Russian ballerina. Sophistication, yes. And I had seen Spectre de Lurose, which was a very famous ballet at the time with Iglevsky and Yuskevich.

[4:48] SONDRA LEE: And I said, I'm going to do that. And so my Aunt Dinah took me home. I went to the local dancing school and got a scholarship.

[4:58] Kevin David Thomas: And how old were you?

[4:59] SONDRA LEE: I'm sorry, I was a kid.

[5:02] Kevin David Thomas: Okay, yeah.

[5:03] SONDRA LEE: And I danced my ass off. And then I wrote a letter. And I said, I'm in a local dancing school, but I think I'm special. And I got a letter from Alexandria Danilova, and it's in my book, and said, Come dance for me.

[5:21] SONDRA LEE: And I got on the subway, which I think was a nickel, from Newark, New Jersey, through Secaucus. You could always smell Secaucus. I think you still can because they had the, that's where they, you know, they took animals and you know.

[5:37] SONDRA LEE: Yeah, and that's really that that was Secaucus. And then you knew after Secaucus was New York City. And I found myself in my roller skating skirt and a little palm beach blouse. And you're like a teenager dancing, like a and my Eurythmy shoes by acrobatics, and I danced for Alexandria Danilova, and she said, jump in the air and turn.

[6:04] SONDRA LEE: So I just with passion, you wouldn't believe, flew into the air and did a double air tour. And she said, do three. And I went for three and I fell. She never laughed. And she said, You are a dancer. I send you to dancing school.

[6:25] SONDRA LEE: And Alexandria Danilova, the great Russian ballerina, sent me. I and you believe it, I have the postcards. The postcards, I think, from Danilova, and they're in that little book.

[6:40] SONDRA LEE: And I slept with everybody, that's what I mean.

[6:43] Kevin David Thomas: Exactly, yes, of course.

[6:44] SONDRA LEE: And so she sent me to dancing school.

[6:47] Kevin David Thomas: Which was where?

[6:48] SONDRA LEE: In Carnegie Hall.

[6:50] Kevin David Thomas: So then you had to live in New York or did you dance?

[6:52] SONDRA LEE: No, you were. No, I was a little kid.

[6:53] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[6:54] SONDRA LEE: I wasn't out of grammar school.

[6:58] Kevin David Thomas: Oh.

[6:58] SONDRA LEE: And then I went home, my mother said, you know, why don't you get a job in the department store or something like that, you know. It wasn't exactly a supportive home.

[7:13] SONDRA LEE: And I sent her, she said, you can't go there. Yeah, that's no scholarship, you know. And actually, I sent her another letter to Alexandria, and she sent me to another school, which was Carnegie Hall, Studio 61, and as a little kid, I went every Saturday with a nickel in the subway.

[7:39] SONDRA LEE: I may get emotional. I'm sorry.

[7:40] Kevin David Thomas: So yourself?

[7:41] SONDRA LEE: Yes.

[7:42] Kevin David Thomas: Wow.

[7:43] SONDRA LEE: My goodness. Yeah. No, but I was famous for running away. I used to run.

[7:47] Kevin David Thomas: Really?

[7:49] SONDRA LEE: Yeah, I used to run away. I ran away all my life. All my life. But when I was that young, I used to run away downstairs in the basement and sit next to the furnace.

[7:59] Kevin David Thomas: Oh.

[7:59] SONDRA LEE: I don't know why. But I will, I knew I wasn't in the right place.

[8:04] Kevin David Thomas: So you were, it sounds like you were trying to get out at an early age. You were trying to go somewhere.

[8:11] SONDRA LEE: And when I got to Studio 61, how fortunate I was, because I had not the language of dance. I mean, really, dance. And they put me in the professional class because Danilova had sent me.

[8:29] Kevin David Thomas: Right.

[8:30] SONDRA LEE: And so on one side was Yuskevich, and the other side, you know, Andrey Yuskevich was there, and Andrey Iglevsky was in front. And we did grand battements and all this thing. I had no idea what I was doing. I kicked the shit out of both of them.

[8:48] SONDRA LEE: And but then this man arrived, whose name was Edward Caton. And Eddie Caton was this wonderful lifelong person. And he said, you dance for me. And he was really a character dancer teacher. And he ignited something within me because I ignited something within him.

[9:21] SONDRA LEE: And he taught me how to move, but not in a balletic way, but in an actor's way. And take the bird and put it in a nest, and then I don't know, he ignited my imagination, and as a result, I became very visually aware. I saw things differently, I smelled things differently. And they gave me a scholarship there, and that was the beginning of my growing.

[9:59] SONDRA LEE: Oh, and then afterward, I got a job in a Russian nightclub. The man who owned the Russian tea room at that time, his name was Misha Bessov. What a name. And the Russian tea room went from 57th Street through to 56th Street.

[10:18] SONDRA LEE: Oh. There were like two kitchens or whatever. But anyway, what happened was that I went to Washington, underage, I had no working papers, but I worked with a Russian group. They were all, you know, they sang the songs and did the things and everything. And there was a sword swallower, you know, and stuff like that.

[10:38] SONDRA LEE: But I was very lonely because they were older people. They were all Russians. And um, but I'd never been in the nightclub. I'd played the Borsch circuit, you know, Mrs. Ader's Walnut House on the Hill in the Catskills.

[10:48] Kevin David Thomas: The Catskills.

[10:54] SONDRA LEE: Yeah, I worked at Catskills when I was 12, 13, called the High Neighbor Review, which is a whole other story there. The High Neighbor Review, and what was hilarious. I mean hilarious, but we were like 10 100 watt bulbs, you know, and we sang and danced and did whatever we wanted.

[11:14] SONDRA LEE: But what I did was I come to think of it, when I was in the Catskills, I took that song that I heard. I went down to the St. James Infirmary. You know, people in the theater and in the arts are connected to their pasts, what they smelled, what they touched, what they remembered. They just do. And I did a dance at Mrs. Ader's Walnut House on the Hill in the Catskills to that song.

[11:44] SONDRA LEE: I got one of the waiters who was also the clarinetist. I mean, we don't know. And he played St. James Infirmary, and I danced. I did this, I don't know, Kaka Mammy dance on a table that I heard screaming, and I thought, oh, I'm a great success. And it was Mrs. Ader saying, Out, get her out. She fired me, she fired me, nobody, nobody's going to do doity dancing in my hotel.

[12:15] SONDRA LEE: And just like that, I was fired. And years later, the girl that actually replaced me, years later in High Button Shoes, was my understudy. Her name was Eleanor Trevor. Yeah. I mean, my whole life has been like that. A series of circles that never end.

[12:37] Kevin David Thomas: Do you remember the first Broadway show that you ever saw?

[12:41] SONDRA LEE: Yes. Yes. And it wasn't Peter Pan, because that was something. That was a tour. That was in uh at the Mosque Theater. But I did see my Aunt Dinah took me to see Best Foot Forward. Oh my gosh. Buckle down Winsaki. And you know who I saw in that? Nancy Walker. Oh, the good one. Who became years later a friend. Yes, of course. Oh my God. Greg, just had to know that. Just curious. I mean, it's really weird, isn't it? And we were in the two last seats in the balcony. Oh my goodness. I had read that you, or maybe I forget where I read it, that you actually met Robbins on the street. Was that true?

[13:23] SONDRA LEE: What happened was I didn't meet him on the street, but I had auditioned for, I forget what the name of the play was, but Agnes DeMille was the choreographer. I don't know, it's something about skyscraper or something like this. I think Allegro. I had read that it was Allegra. Maybe Allegro. And she was the choreographer. And they lined us up, you know, as they do in a and uh, and then she said, somebody said to me, Whatever they ask you, you say yes. So she said, Who do you study with? I was obviously amusing the shit out of the people sitting out there. And uh was it was Allegra, and and she said, Who do you study with? And I remember, I remember Martha Graham, and I remembered uh oh what was it?

Uh wonderful black dancer, and I said, Oh, Catherine Dunham. And I said, I studied with Martha Dunham. And there was a lot of laughing out front. And she said, Oh, good. And she said, and who do you uh she can you do a swastika? Which is it's a it's a modern gesture. And I said, yes, because everybody said whatever they say, you say yes. And she said, do it. I said, well, why don't you come up here and we'll do it together? And she said, thank you, thank you very much. And I was excused.

[14:54] SONDRA LEE: Oh my god. That's it. So I went up Schubert's Alley, and and there were a bunch of dancers out there, and I said, What went on then? So, well, we were just in there with Robins. And so I opened the door. Did you know the name Robins at the time? I had no idea. Okay, okay. And so I walked in the door, Schubert Alley. So it must have been like the Schubert Theater, then. It was. Yes. It was the Schubert Theater. Okay. And there were auditions. That wasn't. And so, but nobody was there. And this little guy came up and said, Oh, I said, Who's Robins? And this this voice said, I'm Robins, who are you? And I said, I'm Sandra. And I just auditioned for I think it was Allegra or whatever that was, with uh, and I said, and and they didn't take me, so I'm going home to commit suicide.

Okay. And he said, don't. He said, dance for me. There's nobody in the theater. It's black. It's black. Just that one, you know, night. Ghost light, yeah. And I don't know what happened, but I flew around like with Danilla. And he said, put her in group A. No, put her in group B. No, put her in Amazons, which was his joke because I was so small. Which is how my nickname at that time became Peanuts.

[16:22] SONDRA LEE: Peanuts. He, yeah. But anyway, what happened was because this is really off the top of my head, um, I didn't hear anything. I didn't know what finals were. I got a card that said you're in the finals. Okay. And I went to the finals, you know, and like there were hordes of dancers coming like this. And then I came and we were supposed to put our foot in the water, and then say, ooh, it's cold, and then say, Oh, there's my husband. Okay, this was part of the audition. And I didn't know what anybody was doing, so I went out there and I did my version of that. And for some reason I did a double take when I saw my husband. And the place started to laugh, and then I got applause. And then I heard, I saw uh uh it was Monty Proser, Joe Kipnas, and Jerry Robbins all talking.

Okay. And and when I saw Jerry, I waved at him. I thought he was like my uncle, you know. And uh and they were talking, I knew they were talking about me, and I thought, I'm gonna be a star. There were 11 dancers who were hired, and and uh 11 girls and 10 boys. I was the 11th girl. Jerry got his way, Jerry got his way. And then things happened. I mean, that then the baby crook came from there, and then uh the the baby crook in the Max Senate Ballet. Yeah, so this is High Button Shoes. Yes. High Button Shoes. Yes. My first show. And I'm talking about green, talk about not knowing what in the world. And this was this was in a theater that was near Central Park. It was way, way uptown. It was not part of the Broadway scene at all.

But then I he started calling me Pinuts, Peanuts. And finally one day I said, Mr. Robbins, you know, why do you call me who what's peanuts? He said, from the Charles Schultz cartoon. Peanuts. You are I said, which one am I? And he said, Sandra, you're all of that. Oh no. And that name, Peanuts, I was called Peanuts for years, until people who I didn't know started calling me peanuts. And that's when I cut it. I never used it again. Yeah. I never used it again.

[18:47] SONDRA LEE: Tell us some stories about working on high button shoes. Phil Silvers and Nette. Oh, he was a joy. Yeah. And then Ned Fabre was too. Those people were great. And then I I didn't have my name on the program. You know, I wasn't, I don't know what I was, you know. But but Lois Lee was in it. And and you know, that they had the the big affish, you know, the her name was on it. So when I when I showed friends of mine, I would stick my finger over Loeth and take a picture. Yeah, like it was me. But I was never in it. But then the reviews came out, and they said something about a sawed-off youngster named Soder Lee or something like that. So even then you got singled out in the reviews. Yeah, but it I owe my life to Jerome Robbins.

[19:37] SONDRA LEE: So tell us, you know, even we're never gonna get to know him uh unless it's through your stories and other stories that we've heard. We I we've never talked to anyone that really knew him the way that you do. Can you tell us a little just give us personality? What was it like to hit to watch him choreograph? What was it like to put his choreography on you? What was it like to be in the room with him? You know, I must say that of all the people who've worked with Jerry, I don't know exactly why I had this thing with Jerry. In fact, next week uh I've been invited to NYU. They're doing, and and this this thing that I wrote about Jerry for the Jerome Robbins Foundation. Oh, that's what it's for, yes. Actually, uh they it's been assigned to them to read so that I can speak about it. Right. Uh, because I saw him, I saw him in a different way. I saw him, I knew I I just saw him.

[20:44] SONDRA LEE: You knew him outside of work, it seems too. I mean, you knew him personally. Oh, yes, deeply personally. Yeah, you know, so you got to see a side of him that most people don't get to see, even if you were in a show with him, right? I think what was he like behind closed doors? I mean, you know, a lot of the animals. He was, first of all, when he got nervous, he was a stutterer. And I had no ideas what kind of affection that he had for me, but it was obviously a special thing because he introduced me to his family. And through the years, they've always treated me as somebody very special. And when Jerry died, I was brought to the house. And that's in my book, actually. Watching him in his bed, you know, in his room, which he loved.

And he was a very simple man who was interested in everything, which I think instilled that that thing within me. I'm interested in everything. As a result, I'm a painter, I'm a designer, I'm now a director, now a writer. And I think he did that.

[22:12] SONDRA LEE: I think as we grow older, I think I disappointed Jerome Robbins as he disappointed me. I mean, when he did Ballet's USA, I had had a very serious accident and and an operation. And he wanted, when we did ballet's USA back here on Broadway, I was still healing. And I had a limp. And I didn't want, I didn't want to do it. And he was very angry with me. And I didn't want a limp. I didn't I didn't, if I couldn't do it like it should have been done, I didn't want to do it. But Jerome Robbins was perhaps a cipher to many people. The secret of getting along with Jerry outside of knowing him personally, was wanting his approval. And if he smelled that in you, he could be vicious.

[23:24] SONDRA LEE: That is in line with so many stories we've heard of people who wanted his approval you could tell. And if they just realized that that was the one thing he didn't want to deal with. Which makes sense when you walked into that theater, that dark theater, and you were just you, and he just saw this little little peanuts come in in, you know, then it makes sense that he would be attracted to that because you were just you have this energy that is you don't care what you think. But you know, I I I saw him over the over the years in so many different ways, you know, where I didn't even know why I was there, frankly. You know, that's why I think that's why I think when when I write about him in my book, or when I when I wrote about him in that one, in that one thing that yes, uh, yeah, I I wish there were there were just things that I saw him do.

But you know, and he he was never fancy, you see. Like he used to have a place on 55th Street off Park Avenue, you know. That was really ritzy bitzy, you know. And uh he had a little room that had a chair, and he said there's a ghost. And he he believed in that ghost, that that ghost should come and sit in that chair. And I saw that ghost. I didn't, you know, I I knew Jerry. That's I can't, and he knew me. I I don't know exactly why. But he cared about cooking, he cared about you know, geniuses, you'll never figure them out. And there was a person next to that genius. A human, yes, yeah. Yes. You know, I I have visions of him just trying to play Chopin or doing something like anybody else, you know, or that he was really worried that he made a meatloaf and it wasn't really good. You know, he needed that.

[25:15] SONDRA LEE: Let's talk. Can we talk about Ruben Rubin and the Markstein?

[25:20] SONDRA LEE: I have a huge fascination with Mark Blitztein. So if he was in the room, I'd love to hear about it, but I also wanted to hear about the story. I'll tell you, when I first came to New York, these are stories I've never told anybody. Thank you. Yay. That's what, yes, because we want when I came to New York through Marlin, actually, which is a whole other thing. When he saw me in dancing school and then in Washington, I read in the paper that he was in a play called The Eagle Has Two Heads with Tallulah Bankhead. And I said, Oh, his name is not Marlo Dugo. His name is Marlon Brando. So I he was the guy that came to your class. So I went backstage and said I was from Alga Turasova's class, and that I was the Russian nightclub, and he invited me to come see him in the play with Tallulah, which by the way, he was fired from.

And I have letters in that book from him about that time. And we he would he would meet me at the Russian nightclub Balalaika, and he would we would go and he showed me Washington, and we would climb the pilgrim's statues and put, you know, a donut in their hand or something. Yeah. Goofballs, I love it. Yeah, but just you know, and he took very good care of me, and then once he wrote me a letter and said, May I sleep with you sometime. Yeah, and because I was just about ready to do it. Sure, yeah, and that's how he became my first lover. First of all, that's right. They read the book about my first. I didn't see that coming. I didn't see that one coming at all. Oh so then how did I get you to then Ruben Rubin?

Uh what happened with Ruben Rubin was that when I first came to New York, I heard this record, and it was called No for an Answer. Yeah, Carol Channing, yeah. No, no. No, I don't think so. This was way before. And it was No for an Answer, and there was a song in it that was just like Nancy, Nancy, and it haunted me. And wherever I went, I would say, Do you know Mark Blitztein? I have to meet Mark Blitztein. There was an audition for Ruben Rubin. I was already in a play, I forget which one it was at the time, and I came out on stage, and Bobby Lewis, Robert Lewis was the director, and he said, SONDRA, you're in a play, what are you doing here? And I said, I have to work with Mark Blitztein. And this little guy got up and said, I want her.

And that's how I ended up in Ruben Rubin. Oh my goodness. And with Hanya Holm, who I didn't even know who it was at that time. And it was one of the most spectacular musical experiences I've ever had in my life. I wonder why it never came to New York, why it didn't make it, you know, to New York. I mean, I knew it was. No, Bobby Lewis ran away. There it is. He ran away. The director ran away. Ran away because he had another show that he was gonna do. And Hanya, Hanya never recovered in a way either. And Eddie Albert and I became very good friends. And I thought Eddie was wonderful as well. But it and a wonderful singer, Alan Case, George Gaines was in it. Evelyn Lear was eventually did Morning Becomes Electra, the Met.

I mean, what a cat. Because he wrote in a theatrical, I mean he did Cradle La Rock before, but this was he wrote in almost he wrote an auto regina. This was but he sat in this dressing room and said to me, SONDRA, this one I'm not afraid. I am unafraid, he said. How does Peter Pan come into your orbit? Peter Pan. That well, I was originally well, that was Jerry. Uh-huh. And Jerry was then beginning to direct, direct. And I was again, it was a show nobody knew what they were gonna do with me. And he he was thinking of me as one of the little lost boys. He just wanted me in that show. But then what happened was that things just began to be something else and be something else because people came and went, you know.

Oh, tell us more. Oh yeah. The original score was Moose, who I adored. And um, no, they came much after. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Carolyn Lee? Carolyn Lee. They were the two original. Yes, that's right. They were mostly and I loved that score. Jerry Robbins was directing now. Yes. Jerry was directing. And then I became a little lost boy. But when I they were rehearsing in California, and I came from New York there. I I don't remember exactly why, but you know, you traveled on a train and or on uh the in the old days you know, they put you on a train. Yeah. What happened was we opened in San Francisco, and the reviews were not very good. And one of the reviews said that Cyril Richard, who I loved madly, uh ran away with the show, who was closely followed by Tiger Lily, who was closely followed by Mary Martin.

So then things started out. This part was not like that at all. And I had a a song called We Come Get You Beware that was cut. And uh, and then she played. Because of Mary, did Mary have you get that song cut, do you think? I mean I don't know, it wasn't Mary, but it certainly was her husband. Which we've heard. The black pearl. We used to call it the black pearl. Oh man. Yeah. And uh so they cut your song. They took my song, and but then she played the fiddle and I played the frying pan. And then things began to change. And that's when Carolyn and Moose sort of they didn't know. They kept they kept their songs, and their songs are still in it. Right. But then came people, you know, and when you're working very hard and you're very young, and you're not a scuttle butt person, you know.

It I just I used to opening nights, I would find my way into the theater in my bedroom slippers. I mean, I didn't know about getting dressed up and opening nights and all that. It it never occurred to me, and still doesn't. At this point, you know, you'd been on Broadway twice. Uh was mom supportive now of what you were doing? Was your family supportive of you doing this? I had my mother banned from the theater because straight out of Gypsy. She she came. Well, I once found my mother. I can say it now, in my dressing room, in my costume. And this was in High Button. We said, guess who could be your understudy? Oh. What oh my gosh. That's a true story. Now that I'm a much older person, I realize what it meant to her, I'm sure, you know.

Why? Having never been acknowledged as anything here. And here I I I ran away always, so I never really grew up in a family or with family traditions. My family are my friends, are my theater friends. And I and and I I'm in awe of them who have children and who have families. So you did you did Peter Pan and they're changing it on the road. They would change it. Yes, things came and went. And you would hear the tick tick tick tick of typewriters. That's what I heard. I heard it everywhere we went, I heard that. And that's when Adolf and Betty and those new songs came in. And uh the the one song though that I remembered called When I Went Home, I again fearlessly went into her dressing room and said, Miss Martin, why are you cutting when I went home?

It's it's a very famous story, but it's true. And she said, no one applauded. And I said they didn't for the Gettysburg address. You are amazing. So fast too. That's just I did say that. And it and people quoted, yeah. It wasn't the guys for the next one. I didn't think it was I didn't think it was smart ass. No, I know, it's true, you're right, you know. You're just trying to prove a point. And you because you loved it that much. And uh, I'm amazed that she had, I mean, of course, she had that much power that she could have a song taken out. I mean, I've got to be. But you know, it's but that song, and I may I say Mary sang it exquisitely. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. Um and then it comes to Broadway, and it's a hit, correct?

Yes, but but that but it was it opened as a limited run. Oh, on Broadway. Right. I remember that. And uh I remember that because it's the only one that I've ever done that was like that. Okay. It was like it was supposed to be for a short period of time. And so what happened? It just got so popular. Oh, wait, I'll tell you though, what happened was so then we became the sensation, you know. And and I, and that's when, after that, that's when they did the TV. And at that time, it was the first time that six million people saw one show. At one time, yes at one time, and we went to Brooklyn and shot it. And and it was funny because the orchestra was a one room. I mean, it was really weird. They shot it again in color, right?

The second one, the second five. Second, the the next one was in color. And you're in both. Yes. I mean the original black and white, which they never could find. And then, and then those, yeah. Wow, wow, wow, wow.

[36:14] Robert W. Schneider: Hey, podcast listeners. Are you looking for a place to rehearse in New York City that is clean, spacious, and most importantly, affordable? Come check out Shetler Studios and Theatres, our wonderful host for these podcasts. Shetler is centrally located on West 54th Street between Broadway and Eighth Avenue, right in the heart of the theater district. Right in the heart, you'll find music, dance, and acting studios complemented by two black box theaters and six presentation venues. The professional facilities, inspired environment, and expert industry staff combined to provide the New York artists with an unparalleled studio experience. Visit their website at ShetlerStudios.com. That's S-H-E-T-L-E-R Studios.com. Shetler Studios and Theatres is our home for recording the legends of Broadway, and we hope that you make it your artistic home too. That's Shetler, S-H-E-T-L-E-R-Studios.com. See you here.

[37:15] Kevin David Thomas: Did you realize that when you were working on something like Peter Pan that you were in the golden age of musical theater? Did you realize that there was just I never think of I I just I work? I just no, it was I I wanted as I became more and more an actor um I I do my homework and Peter Pan was actually never called Peter Pan. It was originally called Wendy's Dream, and it was a play in five acts, and I have a copy of it. Oh my god, I didn't know that by the way. Yes, James Barry. And he said, people in their dreams, which has to do with psychoanalysis today, show up in their dreams as different people.

[38:00] SONDRA LEE: And the only one who doesn't, like Mr. Darling chastises the children and the dog, Nana. They in Wendy's dream become the Crocodile. Yeah, Nana becomes a crackodile. And um, and Mr. Darling makes all the children go to bed. You know, can we say, no, no, no. And what happens is that she becomes Captain Hook. The only one who doesn't change, as far as James Barry is concerned, is the mother. And Mrs. Darling never shows up again in that dream. Wonder why? Because mothers never change. That's that was so. I mean, when you read, you know, more and more about James Barry, the more you understand. And Tiger Lily didn't exist. She became the maid, but Mary wanted her daughter to be in the show. So she became the maid, and I became Tiger Lily.

[39:12] Kevin David Thomas: How interesting. You did a show called Hotel Paradiso. And I just want to talk to you about some of the cast members. Carlton Carpenter, a former guest, James Coco.

[39:23] SONDRA LEE: Yeah, Jimmy Coco. Angela Lansbury, which I think was her first Broadway credit, I believe.

[39:28] Kevin David Thomas: Actually, I think it was.

[39:29] SONDRA LEE: Yeah, it was like 62 years ago. This is a nice group of people. What was this experience like?

[39:34] SONDRA LEE: It was a remarkable experience. I never stopped laughing, I tell you. And I you know how I got that job? I had been in Paris with Roland Petit with the Ballet de Paris. And I when I was in Peter Pan, this we were in California, and this car came by. We had opened in San Francisco, and we then we played LA before we ever came to New York. And this car came by, and this French guy stands up and he said, You, I want you. I said, Who are you? He said, Roland Petit. And I said, Oh, okay. He said, You'll hear from me. And I got this offer to course, a guy in a car rolled up and was like, you, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it was him. So when I came back, um, I auditioned for Hotel Paradiso, and there was a woman who was already a star on Broadway. Um, but I had done Ruben Rubin with George Gaines, her husband.

[40:34] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, yeah, George Gaines, yes.

[40:36] SONDRA LEE: He was in Paradise. It was quite a group. I've never done anything that was not quite a group.

[40:42] Kevin David Thomas: Was this your first play?

[40:43] SONDRA LEE: I I can't, I think uh first Broadway play. No, Sunday in New York, no. It was either I don't know which came which. Because I'm thinking, you know, sometimes Hotel Paradiso because I just came back from Palais de Paris. So I was still dancing seriously. I'm impressed that, you know, in this business sometimes we get pegged as like dancer, that's it. And then all of a sudden here you are in this play. I mean But I I just come from France, so I knew French. And I know that they made me a black wig, which I loved. You know, I was really coquette. I was super and I played with Carlton Carpenter.

[41:20] SONDRA LEE: Yes, the wonderful Carlton Carpenter. Bert Lahr. What was the Bert now? You know, and and I must say that that his family is extraordinary. But Bert was extraordinary. He was a hypochondriac. And you would find him on the phone as you came into the if if if he had a cold, we all had to have a shot. Um he he was unbelievable. That's a great name. I mean he was unbelievable. He was a hypochondriac, really. But and but you could throw him a line from another from waiting for Godot, and he went right into it.

[41:55] Kevin David Thomas: That I believe as well. And then Jimmy Coco. I love Jimmy Coco. A fabulous actor.

[41:59] SONDRA LEE: He was, but only, and then I think I had a small part. But uh, I mean, the whole thing was Faye Doll. I mean, how often can you get the opportunity to do Fey Dolphins?

[42:12] Kevin David Thomas: So true. Now, I have to ask on on because it's on your resume. Federico Fellini's La Dolce Vida.

[42:19] SONDRA LEE: Okay. I was in Spoleto, actually. I was in Spoleto. First I had gone with Jerry with Ballet's USA. And then I went back with John Butler. And uh and Michael Kakayanis was there. And Michael Kakayanna said, You look like Cassandra. Will you do the Trojan women? And I said, Well, nobody knows, but I'm a member of the actor's studio, and I'm a very serious actor. And he said, It's yours. And so I did it with. Yeah. And that's how I became a Greek tragedy actress with Mildred Dunlock.

[43:13] Kevin David Thomas: So so you were. I can't. So okay, so you were in that, and then Fellini saw you and said a friend of his, whose name just went out of my head, but it's in my book, saw me, and he told Fellini about it. And Fellini said, I want to see her. Because at that time they said she's she's like Gilletta Massina. So he's he sent for me. Uh and at that time Gloria Swanson was hanging around. She was trying to get into Gor Zorba. Okay. She wanted to do Zorba. I mean, we're all in Spoleto. Spoleto was an amazing place. Magical. It was. And we, and when we went with Jerry, it was just when it opened. Yeah. You know, they used to carry us through the streets on their shoulders.

[44:04] Kevin David Thomas: Really?

[44:04] SONDRA LEE: Oh my God. Yeah. And so you get into the I can't. When did you join the actor's studio?

[44:10] SONDRA LEE: Um I joined the actor studio because of trying to see. How did I get there? I think because of Lee, uh Lee Strasberg and and um and everybody. Uh Jerry Page, and they just said I I never auditioned. I just so you you just started going to these classes.

[44:39] SONDRA LEE: I I had Lee, but my teacher was the great Stella Adler, who Marlon Brando, when I said, I really don't want to just dance, I want to act, I want to act. And he said, I'll take it to my teacher. So Marlon took me to his teacher, who became my teacher. Yes. And I taught for Stella for 15 years.

[44:58] Kevin David Thomas: So what was it like being in a classroom with Stella Adler?

[45:05] SONDRA LEE: One of the great experiences of your life. She was the most seductive, knowledgeable, well traveled, seductive, spoiled, and proud of it. I I don't know.

[45:24] Kevin David Thomas: What made her such a good teacher? Or what lessons from her do you take with you when you direct or coach actors? Because the the actors you've coached, my God. Do you mind if I read down the list really?

[45:34] SONDRA LEE: Please do. Uh such people on her coaching list include Jane Fonda, Marlon Brando, Dustin Hoffman, Cindy Lauper, Sally Fields, John Malkovich, L. McPherson, Donna Hanover, Amy Adams, Sean Combs. My God, this is Puff Daddy, the of all three names. So what did you take from her? And rock and roll. I would rock and roll that. Oh my god. What do you what did you take from her that you now use when you're teaching or directing?

[46:01] SONDRA LEE: Wonderful, because what she what she did as a teacher is that you know, there are two there are two schools. Um is the actor's studio, which says, it's Lee, if you're working with Lee, find the pain. And Stella would say, Yes, I could I could play uh the woman in the village, just as long as I'm the queen. And that was the kind of mentality. She would say, go to museums, travel, have lovers, um, paintings, whereas the studio was find the inner, find the whole, yeah. And uh it's it's it's the difference of two different techniques, but they all taught the same thing. They were all members, you know, uh of that one group.

[47:00] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, the group theater.

[47:02] SONDRA LEE: Yeah, and each one of them became directors or whatever, but they found the one thing that they did best in order to relate to an actor. And that is Sandy had repeat, you know. I like your hair, I love your hair. You like my hair, I like your hair. Well, whatever it was, each one, hers was much more intellectual. Hers was go out and find the background, do your homework. Whereas the studio is really find the core. You know. And it makes the combination is what makes a fine, well, well-rounded actor. And Stella was truly Marlon's teacher and inspiration. And um when Stella died, he asked me to read that letter that he wrote about her. You know.

[48:01] Kevin David Thomas: And uh she was a remarkable woman, remarkable and seductor, like we wouldn't believe. You wouldn't believe. And it's so wonderful that her her teaching style is now living on through you and through others, obviously, but and through her school.

[48:17] SONDRA LEE: And through the school. But I have very little to do with the school because I don't I don't know what they're doing. I you know, I I know what she what she ignited in me, that works. If I can pass that on, I will. Or if I'm working with someone, let's say, whether uh like a Dustin Hoffman or uh uh Jane Fonda, Sally Fields. Yeah. Well, I I yeah, because um th those were movies too that I work with uh on those. And uh and to this day though, uh, you know, somebody will call and say, I I'm stuck. I said, well, let's let's go look through the script.

[48:55] Kevin David Thomas: Is there a difference between coaching an actor for a stage performance as opposed to an on-camera performance?

[49:00] SONDRA LEE: Absolutely.

[49:02] Kevin David Thomas: Can you explain what some of the differences would be?

[49:04] SONDRA LEE: I can. And that is one is projection. And oddly enough, in the theater, you break that wall, you know, even within a play. But you know that there are people out there. Yeah. It's vocal. A camera records thought. A camera, if you allow it, if you allow it, goes in and gets. Whereas you project in the theater, whether it's vocally or whether it's a theme. And you when you make a movie, you shoot out of sequence very often. So you you have to really know what begat that that scene. Also, to one is verbal and the other is visual. And until you really understand that, theater people can adjust much more easily to film than film people who suddenly don't have.

[50:00] Kevin David Thomas: I agree.

[50:00] SONDRA LEE: Because they have a they have a mic. A mic on the whispering in film.

[50:04] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, they're whispering.

[50:05] SONDRA LEE: Yeah, or or or and the great ones allow the camera in. Or you have a director who understands the medium. Marlin, oddly oddly with Gadge, really understood that. You know.

[50:25] Kevin David Thomas: But also he was a phenomenon anyway.

[50:29] SONDRA LEE: Oh, absolutely. As an actor. Absolutely. And he did his homework. And the tragedy about Marlin is that when he did Shakespeare when he attempted it, he was he was really slandered.

[50:41] SONDRA LEE: Which was so stupid, you know, because he could have been our Mark Rylance.

[50:47] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, absolutely.

[50:48] SONDRA LEE: I mean, to think of all the things that he could have done. I mean, I'd love to have seen his King Lear, I would love to have seen a McBeth out of him.

[50:53] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, there's so much.

[50:55] SONDRA LEE: So much, but unfortunately, bad reviews took him away from that.

[50:58] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, and he was very vulnerable.

[51:02] Robert W. Schneider: Did you stay in contact with him up until his passing?

[51:04] SONDRA LEE: Yes.

[51:06] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[51:07] SONDRA LEE: Yeah. It's great when that can happen. We never quite remain exactly the same.

[51:14] SONDRA LEE: But you know, I could yell at him and he could yell at me.

[51:17] Kevin David Thomas: I think we should ask about Hello, Dolly.

[51:19] SONDRA LEE: Hello, Dolly. This is the only part I've never had to audition for. I was in Spoleto. I think I was with John Butler's company then, a great, great choreographer. And I got a call from Gower. And he said, and I didn't know, I mean knew who he was.

[51:38] Kevin David Thomas: Right.

[51:39] SONDRA LEE: He said, this is Gower Chapman. And I have this script. I'm gonna send it to you. I said, terrific. So he, I was flattered beyond belief. He sent it. Um and I read it, and then I called him and I said, I can't find it. And he said, What? The script? I said, no, the character. He said, that's why I called you.

[52:05] SONDRA LEE: Yep. And so he left. Actually, that character. For you to like put your mark on him. And then he, he originally, she, uh, Minnie Fay was to wear, uh, an accordion and play the accordion. And I thought, oh no. Uh-uh, honey. Oh no. And, uh, and they, I said, I can't, I will not, I cannot. Uh, you know, I said, you know, Minnie Fay is talking about, you know, cherries and feathers. That's what she's talking about. And she's never had a date, and I know exactly what her clothes should look like. And they said, okay, okay. And, um, but how about the accordion? And I said, no. And they said, why not? I said, because my boop gets caught in it. And they said, that's a good enough excuse.

[52:59] Kevin David Thomas: Fair enough.

[53:00] SONDRA LEE: Out. Out. And then it became much more dancing or whether it's a good thing.

[53:04] Kevin David Thomas: Yes, it is, of course.

[53:06] SONDRA LEE: But Gower was one of the cleverest people I have ever worked with.

[53:10] Kevin David Thomas: Yes.

[53:10] SONDRA LEE: Really?

[53:11] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[53:12] SONDRA LEE: Not a genius like Jerry, whose vocabulary was endless. Endless. His interests were endless. But Gower. He was a tap dancer. We didn't even have the same rhythm. We used to argue about rhythm. It's interesting. But I loved him. And I love Mar March Champion. It's going to be 99 in September.

[53:40] Kevin David Thomas: 99.

[53:41] SONDRA LEE: What incredible people.

[53:43] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[53:44] SONDRA LEE: They are, were.

[53:46] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, still are.

[53:47] SONDRA LEE: Will ever be. When you were out of town with Hello, Dolly, how was it? How was it out of town? How was it putting the show on? Because I think that it actually, you forget, you know, that there was a president who was annihilated.

[54:01] SONDRA LEE: And what I did that time, we were in Detroit. Yes, the fisherman. And I remember so well. I wrote about a little bit about it. They were all huddled around a little radio. And I remember, I remember Eileen with her pink curlers.

[54:16] Kevin David Thomas: Eileen.

[54:17] SONDRA LEE: Eileen Brennan. Uh-huh. Were you guys?

[54:19] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[54:19] SONDRA LEE: Oh yeah, yeah. We were all bonded. Yeah. Because we didn't know what we were doing. We, and we were such, this was really one of the great gifts of Gower. That casting. Yeah. I mean, we were so unlikely, you can't imagine. And yet somehow, Vorton Wilder, we hooked in. We knew, we knew.

[54:43] Kevin David Thomas: So you were, they were listening around the radio. I interrupted you.

[54:44] SONDRA LEE: Oh yeah, they were huddled around the radio talking about what had happened to Kennedy. I mean, and then we heard Carol on the phone talking to the Johnsons, saying, We're gonna keep, she was very close to the Johnsons and that we're gonna keep going and I couldn't believe. And I at that time had a friend who became, well, he was famous, I guess then, but we never thought about it like that, and that was Jimmy Baldwin. And I called Jimmy and I was crying, and I said, Jimmy, what should we do? What should I do? And he said, go out and get some groceries. I'll never forget his voice. Go out and get some groceries.

[55:34] SONDRA LEE: Just called him up like that.

[55:36] Robert W. Schneider: Did Hello, Dolly change a lot out of town?

[55:39] SONDRA LEE: Yes.

[55:39] Robert W. Schneider: In what way?

[55:41] SONDRA LEE: Uh again, uh the life of a musical changes mostly the composers. And also, there was one character that was changed, and I never understood why. Barnaby. Every five minutes there was another Barnaby. It's like not, he's not the biggest character in the show. I mean, it's, I mean, he's Glenn Walken. I think of, uh, Glenn Walken, I think his name was, was the first Barnaby. He was gone. They came like to jupe. You couldn't keep up with many fee. Yeah, unbelievable. I mean, he was always, there was always a new one.

[56:17] Kevin David Thomas: What was it like working with Carol Channing and David Burns?

[56:20] SONDRA LEE: David Burns was the most hilarious person ever. That's okay and a great actor. But every once in a while, if you would pass the scenery, if there was like a hole in it, it was best to go by it because he put something in there. I mean, you, he was hilarious. Hilarious. And I mean, he just, but you know, I've I'd seen him in so many plays, and he was a wonderful actor and really a loving human being. Really, it was very nice.

[56:52] Robert W. Schneider: And then how did you get involved with being a consultant to film directors?

[56:57] SONDRA LEE: What a, what anything. That was Robert Benton. That was the great Robert Benton from the world. I, I was painting. I also, I'm a painter. So, and I had a couple of shows. And I, I was painting, we, we were studying with someone, uh, Sally Benson, who is a great painter. And Sally said, My husband would like to meet you. And I said, I'd like to meet him too, you know. And um, and so I did, and he said, I'm not comfortable speaking with actors. And I said, Well, let me read the script. And I, I don't think I've ever told anybody this, but I, because we're now very good friends, yeah. We still are good friends. I did six movies with Benjamin. And I read the script, Places in the Heart, and I said, Benson, the way I see the script, is that places in the heart are through the eyes of that little boy.

And he just burst into tears and he said, You've just saved my movie. He said, There's only one person who has to know that, and that's Nestor Alamandros. The cinematographer. And I said, no one will ever have to know that, but you, the director has to know that. That that's, that's how that movie got born. And Nestor again was such an incredible cinematographer, you know. And you just, you learn. I mean, it took great courage for Benton, because there's no, I, they said, oh well, you, you could be the script, uh, person. I said, no, I'm not. I want consultant to the director. Nobody has to know. It's such a, uh, an old boys' club out there, you know. They didn't have a, they didn't have a title.

I said, and I want a chair with my name on it. Or those actors will know in five minutes who I am and what I'm doing there. And we would, we would rehearse a scene or something for camera, and then they, they would say, Are you and Benton going for a walk? And we'd say, Yes, we are, and we would go and just discuss.

[59:26] Robert W. Schneider: This has been an absolute pleasure, SONDRA. I hope you had as good of a time as we did. But you know, you're welcome back on the show anytime.

[59:34] SONDRA LEE: Oh, no, you asked me back, I'll come back.

[59:36] Kevin David Thomas: Amazing. And once again, we just want to remind our listeners it's a fantastic book. It's called I've Slept With Everybody, a memoir by SONDRA LEE.

[59:45] SONDRA LEE: And the first of that was Marlon Brando. My God.

[59:47] Kevin David Thomas: You can go to Amazon.com to buy it or other places.

[59:50] SONDRA LEE: Amazon.com. And it's, it's, uh, I, I, it's probably even less than what it was when it came out. But it's 20 bucks.

[59:57] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, I want, I'm, I'm gonna go home and buy it right now.

[59:58] SONDRA LEE: Yeah, the photo, the photos are fabulous. It's, it's broken up perfectly.

[1:00:02] SONDRA LEE: Oh, can I read you something?

[1:00:03] Kevin David Thomas: Yes, please.

[1:00:04] SONDRA LEE: Yeah, we'll go out on that.

[1:00:06] SONDRA LEE: Yes. Why I called it that. A reading by SONDRA LEE. I cannot say that people in the arts can't work it out. Yet the levels of rejection, frustration, humiliation, and low self-esteem make it difficult to survive when you know in your heart of hearts that you're gifted. Is it about winning or creating drama in order to be noticed and approved of? Is it about applause and public approval? What is truly schizoid, crazy existence? If you paint, you have to exhibit. If you write, someone has to read it. And if you perform, someone else has to see you. It is the sense of community, knowing that a community exists. This has been the single largest appeaser and nourisher for most of us. This life, this wonderful life in the arts, is what has kept me going and why I will keep going.

[1:01:17] Robert W. Schneider: Sondra, thank you so much for that. That is absolutely beautiful. And great advice to all of our listeners that want to pursue this passion of theirs. And you can see by SONDRA's great life and legacy that, uh, that, uh, it's, it's, it's so fulfilling and it's absolutely so rewarding. Thank you so much for sharing everything with us today. And thank you for sharing that. And once again, please buy the book. It's really lovely. SONDRA LEE, I've slept with everybody. It's available on Amazon, it's available on Kindle, and I'm sure in many.

[1:01:46] SONDRA LEE: And there's a difference between when somebody says they always say, Oh, I slept with everyone. I said, No, no, I slept with everybody.

[1:01:52] Kevin David Thomas: Everybody.

[1:01:52] SONDRA LEE: Yeah.

[1:01:53] SONDRA LEE: Um again. Goodbye, everybody.

[1:02:02] Robert W. Schneider: Today's episode was recorded at Shetler Studios on two forty-four West 54th Street. Visit Shetler Studios to book your room today, and you could be as cool as us. That's S H E T L E R Studios.com.

[1:02:15] Robert W. Schneider: And a big thanks to our sound editor Daniel Schwartzberg and social media manager Bethany Ann Solecki. And friends, don't forget we want more folks to hear these incredible stories, and that's where you guys can come in and help us out.

[1:02:27] Kevin David Thomas: Yes, in order for people to find out about us, we need lots of ratings on iTunes. The more ratings, the more they'll come up in search us. So head on over to iTunes, search for Behind the Curtain: Broadway's Living Legends, click on our logo, click on ratings and reviews, then write a review and leave us five stars and make us feel as special as Eliza Doolittle on Eliza Doolittle Day.

[1:02:50] Robert W. Schneider: Or you can leave us one star and make us feel as bad as Annie did in that weird production in Boston where Annie dreamed about being adopted and then ended the show back in the orphanage. True story, Rob was there.

[1:03:02] Kevin David Thomas: I saw it. So head on over to iTunes and make us feel even more special than we already do.