This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, I'm Rob Schneider.

[0:01] Kevin David Thomas: And I'm Kevin David Thomas. And this is BEHIND THE CURTAIN, Broadway's Living Legends. Don't forget to follow us on Twitter at Broadway Curtain and make sure to join our Facebook page at BEHIND THE CURTAIN, Broadway's Living Legends, and follow us on Instagram at Broadway Curtain Podcast. Plus, you can always listen to all of our episodes, old and new, on the Broadway Podcast Network, iTunes and Spotify. It has been said that before it was cool, today's guest did it, and they are correct. She was the owner of two cabaret spaces, was an unwed mother, an international sex symbol, a cougar, understudied and went on for Barbara Streisand, became an advocate for those like herself with DVT, and received Golden Globe and Emmy nominations for her work on both the large and small screen in such projects as These Are Our Favorites, My Favorite Year, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, The Nanny, Lust in the Dust, You Don't Mess with the Zohan, Beaches, and so many more.

But as prolific as her on-camera work is, today we are celebrating her countless appearances on stage in such shows as The Happiest Girl in the World, Bravo Giovanni, Funny Girl, My Favorite Year, The Government Inspector, Bermuda Avenue Triangle, as well as regional productions of A Little Night Music, Man of La Mancha, Gypsy, Hello Dolly, Fiddler on the Roof, and Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, not to mention her indelible recording career, which includes The Chanteuses Loose, Body and Soul, and In the Groove. To tell us what it was like to work with such legends as Julie Stein, Barbara Streisand, Peter O'Toole, Joe Bologna, Renee Taylor, Tony Randall, Frances Ford Coppola, and so many more, here is everyone's dream mama-la, Laini Kazan. Laini, how are you today?

[1:40] Lainie Kazan: I'm terrific, and how are you?

[1:42] Robert W. Schneider: Good, we're so happy to have you.

[1:44] Lainie Kazan: Thank you, I'm happy to be here.

[1:46] Kevin David Thomas: Good, now Laini, it was a shock, but I'm good. We're just, well that's okay. So Laini, we know that you're in LA right now, but we know you grew up in New York, in Brooklyn, right?

[1:53] Lainie Kazan: Okay, so while you were in Brooklyn, did your family ever take you to see any Broadway shows? Did you make the trip into the city?

[2:00] Lainie Kazan: Yes, my first Broadway show was South Pacific.

[2:04] Kevin David Thomas: Oh.

[2:05] Lainie Kazan: With Mary Martin. Oh my gosh. That was the first time I went to the theater, and it was, I knew then and there I had to be up there. I wanted to, that's what I wanted to do.

[2:21] Kevin David Thomas: That was the production, just that show, I mean like going to see that show, I mean really that was the moment.

[2:25] Lainie Kazan: That was the moment, well I mean I was singing from the time I was a little girl, I mean I was like four, and I was singing and dancing. I did my first live performance at the Brooklyn Academy of Music.

[2:38] Kevin David Thomas: Oh wow.

[2:39] Lainie Kazan: And I was about four or five years old, I did, I'll be down to get you in taxi, honey. And I was, you know, that was it.

[2:57] Kevin David Thomas: Was there a lot of music around the house when you were growing up?

[3:02] Lainie Kazan: Yes, my father and my mother both loved the theater. They went to see a lot of nightclub performers. They listened to a Porgy and Bess concert, I mean that was a show that was on Broadway at the time, and they went to see it and got the album. And my father listened to a lot of blues, a lot of country stuff. My mom loved the theater and all those legitimate performances.

[3:31] Kevin David Thomas: And what did your folks do for a living?

[3:36] Lainie Kazan: My mother was a housewife. She made reservations, restaurants. And my father was a bookie, a bookmaker. And until I was about, oh maybe 12 or 13, I thought he was in publishing. But he was a bookie.

[3:50] Kevin David Thomas: So what does that mean for those, the listeners who might be a little new to what that means?

[3:56] Lainie Kazan: It means that he took bets. And he, it wasn't legal at the time. Now it is legal. But it was a business that was undercover. And we lived a very hectic life. We lived in Brooklyn in the summers, not in the summers, but in the spring and fall. In the winter, we lived in Miami Beach. And in the summers, I went to camp, Chenawa, in the Adirondacks. And all of that nurtured my dream, you know, all of it. Because when I was in New York, of course, we went to the theater. And I saw Peter Pan with Mary Martin as well. And Once in Love with Amy, what was-

[4:49] Kevin David Thomas: Where's Charlie?

[4:50] Lainie Kazan: There's Charlie. I saw that. I saw a lot of Broadway shows after I saw South Pacific.

[4:58] Kevin David Thomas: Did you have an idol? Was Mary Martin one of your favorites?

[5:02] Lainie Kazan: Judy Garland was my idol. I mean, I went to see her, I think, five times at the palace. My mom, with my mom, we both loved her. And, you know, later on in life, I got to meet her and go to her home.

[5:16] Kevin David Thomas: What was that like, sitting in the living room with your idol?

[5:20] Lainie Kazan: It was incredible. I got a call. I was on the Dean Martin show at the time, and she called me backstage. I had somebody call me backstage. And they invited me to her home to a Christmas party. And of course, I went. And I took my husband to be with me, who was Peter Daniels. And he and I went to Rockingham Road in Bel Air. And she opened the door. And I seriously almost fainted. I almost jumped out. It was like, oh, my God. And she sat next to me all night. And then she asked me if I would sing for her. I said, oh, no, no, no. She said, please, if you sing for me, I'll sing for you. And I sang. I sang. I don't remember what I sang. I was so nervous. And then she sang Somewhere with the Rainbow. My husband played it for her on the piano. Oh, it was incredible evening. It was an evening that I'll never, ever forget.

[6:24] Kevin David Thomas: What a magical, magical night. What is what about her performing style that do you still take with you to this day? Or maybe in some way, try to?

[6:31] Lainie Kazan: I think so. I think it was. I felt that she loved everyone in the audience. And, and they loved her back, you know, they worshipped her. And I think there's some part of me that wants that communication. And I think I get it. And I think I don't try. But I think it's embedded in me. I think it's something that is instinctual. I think maybe because of her. I also love you know, I loved a lot of those. I love Betty Hutton.

[7:13] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, yeah, live in Miami Beach. I saw her live. She was funny.

[7:23] Lainie Kazan: Yeah. And my daddy was funny. He was hysterical. My mother had absolutely no sense. But, but my my dad was hilarious. And he took me to see all the Abbott and Costello movies.

[7:41] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, wow. You know, just that was his, you know, take on life. So how did they react when you say, Listen, I'm gonna do this. This is going to be very supportive.

[7:49] Lainie Kazan: Oh, good. I got Yeah, I went to college and my parents wanted me to go to university. I got a scholarship to Hofstra University. And I, I that's why I went there. And so I graduated with a BA in theater. And, and it didn't, it didn't stop me. While I was in college, I did a show called Leave it to Jane for three years. So I was in that show, I auditioned in my sophomore year, and stayed throughout. And I in summers, I did Westbury, Westbury Music Fairs. And, and I, I also did The Happiest Girl in the World.

[8:35] Kevin David Thomas: And where did you get your equity card? If I may ask?

[8:39] Lainie Kazan: The Happiest Girl in the World.

[8:40] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, that was your equity card. Wow. Broadway debut. Nice.

[8:46] Kevin David Thomas: So Lainey, just so I understand, so you were in college and still doing Leave it to Jane at the same time?

[8:50] Lainie Kazan: Yeah, I would take the train, the Long Island Railroad, back to school at night, the 10 something train, and I would get up in the morning and go to classes. And, and then get on the train at like four o'clock in the afternoon, put my makeup on on the train. And I was skilled. I knew I mean, I didn't I put my makeup on. And it was perfect. And I would get off the train and put my costume on and I go, Leave it to Jane, Jane, Jane.

[9:25] Kevin David Thomas: And they made a recording of it, right? I think there's a cast recording.

[9:30] Lainie Kazan: Yeah. I mean, what a great first entryway job. It was so interesting, because I was with my girlfriend, and we were in the village. And it was a Saturday afternoon. And I, she said to me, Oh, look, there's auditions today for a show at the Sheridan Square Playhouse. And I said, Oh, I don't want to do that. She's I said, We're in Bermuda shorts. And I'm not up to that. She said, Oh, come on, let's go in. So there was a dance audition, and we both made the first leg of it, so to speak. And, and then Joe Baru, who was the producer of that show, asked me if I would, asked us if we would come and, you know, did I sing? I said, Oh, I sing a little. And he said, you know, could you come to my my home on Sunday tomorrow, and we're having singing auditions.

So I went with my girlfriend, Ellen, who's still my dearest friend. And we went and I got the job and she did. And yeah, sorry, Ellen. And then the rest was history. I met some friends that I still relate to and talk to and communicate with. And I have people who are in my life still. That's the magic of theater.

[10:50] Kevin David Thomas: Do you remember what song you auditioned with?

[10:54] Lainie Kazan: I used to sing all the time. I'm not at all in love. Not at all. And then I used to sing some ballad. I don't remember what it was. I don't remember. I don't remember. Maybe that same song slower. Who knows?

[11:10] Kevin David Thomas: You know? So tell us a little bit about, well, let me ask you, when you were doing this, were you also going to HB Studios at the time? Or did that come later in your life?

[11:19] Lainie Kazan: You know, HB Studios was not where I went. I mean, I don't know what that story is. But he was a dirty old man. And he used to hit on me. I went there like three times. And I said, that's it for me. I just, yeah, I didn't deal with him. I mean, I know he had a great reputation, but I never studied with him. Not really. I stayed with Sanford Meisner.

[11:45] Kevin David Thomas: Okay. So let's talk a little bit about Sanford Meisner.

[11:48] Lainie Kazan: He was my hero. He got me ready for my audition for Funny Girl. He was my hero. I mean, he used to take me to his hotel and work with me. And he just loved me. He called me Gadge. And I didn't understand why he called me Gadge, but they called Ilya Kazan Gadge. And I don't, I still don't know why. But I do want to find out if you ever find out why.

[12:20] Kevin David Thomas: You'll be the first one.

[12:22] Lainie Kazan: Gadge.

[12:53] Lainie Kazan: Sandford said he was a method teacher but he was much more structured. I think I combined the two techniques as a professor, as an adjunct professor. That's what I teach. I teach acting for the singer. And I teach at UCLA and I have taught at NYU. But my home is here so I teach here.

[13:18] Lainie Kazan: I hate to ask you this without giving you some sort of compensation for it because you're a teacher and deserve to be paid, but what are some of the things that you impart onto your students when they take your class? I tell them about my life a lot. I give them information to get through life with. I try and impart the problems I've had so maybe that they will escape those handicaps. I try and I teach them all sensory work, how to go inside themselves. That going inside and then presenting that finished product is much more exciting than somebody who's dazzling you. Somebody who is really feeling and truly working the method, I believe, is the true actor. I know that a lot of people hear the method and they say, oh my god. But I believe in it wholeheartedly. I think all our great actors were method actors. And for a listener who might not be familiar yet with the method, how would you define it as an acting style and acting education?

[14:50] Lainie Kazan: It encompasses reliving a lot of things in your life. Reliving. Reliving. Going back to your experiences and bringing them to the surface so that you can use them in whatever you're playing and identifying the characters in your own life so that the character of, let's say, Gittelmoska in Seesaw, is that closer to you or is it somebody you know and that you can actually absorb that character and you become that character and you have experiences as that character by doing these exercises. They're sensory work, animal exercises, because sometimes you can just be an animal and that will give you a character. You know, if you're a bird and the bird has a nervous twitch or a tiger, and you approach the character as an animal.

And then, of course, you dissect the script and you know what your beats are. It's a very, very difficult process to act. To sing a song. And I think that most people just sing the song. They don't live the words. And that's what I teach. And I had a lot of success with my students.

[16:41] Lainie Kazan: It's, you know, it's so interesting that you say that because before we went on the air and, you know, in the process of doing research, I came across you singing Copacabana and your performance of it is so acting intensive. How do you go about approaching a song or approaching a character? Or does it change depending on what the material is?

[17:04] Lainie Kazan: No, I approach everything in the same way. Like, for example, Copacabana for me was a play. It was a play. It was a whole play. I saw Lola. I knew who she met. I knew where she was. I was at the Copa. I had a boyfriend who was like Rico. So I used him. And then I lost my mind as she was a drunk. And that's and, you know, Barry Manilow came in to hear me sing. And that's when he put the whole Copacabana, that whole piece as a play.

[17:46] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, wow. That's very, that's very cool. That is very, very cool. Let me go back if I can, Lainie. You said that Sanford Meisner helped you in your audition for Funny Girl. In what way? How did he help you?

[17:59] Lainie Kazan: Well, he taught me how to act. That was he gave me technique, a technique. He had his rules. He was had an independent activity. So you were always doing something. So you weren't just sitting there. You always had some kind of an activity to do. He always had an emotional memory, you know, and there were all these little like techniques that I put into my audition, and I took the time. And I, I really learned my role, my words. And I, I remember auditioning for The Understudy. I didn't audition for the play. I got to play my what happened was Garson Kainan, the director, and Carol Haney, and I worked together one summer in a production, an Oldsmobile industrial show. And we became friends.

[19:05] Lainie Kazan: I love Carol Haney. Yeah, I'd love to hear more about her.

[19:05] Lainie Kazan: She was a choreographer and a great dancer, just great. A Jack Cole dancer. And she was, oh my God, she was so great. And she said, you know, I'm doing a little musical based on Fanny Bryce, and my father loved Fanny Bryce. So I knew all about Fanny Bryce. I had a little, little shtick she used to do, and I dressed like her. I had a big bow and a short skirt, and, you know, kind of like, you know, one of her characters. And I took pictures like that. And I, I knew her sense of humor, and I knew what she did, and I knew about my man and how she sang. And I really identified with her. And I didn't know that Barbra Streisand was the lead. And then when I found out, I had gone to school with Barbra Streisand. I didn't know her. I did not know her.

[20:07] Kevin David Thomas: You were like, she was like a freshman when you were like a senior or something like that?

[20:10] Lainie Kazan: Yeah, something like that. Sophomore or junior. But anyway, to make a long story short, I, I, I was singing at a little club called The Living Room, which was on Second Avenue in Manhattan. And they had a trailer outside, like, because it was The Living Room. So I had a press agent, and he said we should get a trailer, and we'll have milk delivered, and we'll have, we'll do a whole little shtick. So I did that, and I caught a lot of attention. And I got written up every day in the newspaper. It was the newspaper strike. And so there was only one paper, The Post. And I was in The Post every single day. And, and they came in to hear me sing. Carol Haney brought Carson Kane in, and musical director, and Carol Haney. And they came in to hear me, and they hired me to play a part, Vera, in the production of Funny Girl.

[21:19] Lainie Kazan: So I came to the first rehearsal, and Ray Stark came in. Ray Stark was the producer. And he, and also David Merrick at the time was also one of the producers. And when I came to rehearsal, they pulled me over on the side and said, would you like to audition to understudy Barbara Streisand? I said, oh, I don't know. I know about understudies, and it's not a very, it's not a very gratifying job. It's not very, you know, it's not that it's not productive, it's productive, but it's not, it's not art. I don't want to have to, like, put my foot down where she put her foot down every night. And I want to do it my way. And if I can do it my way a little bit, I'm not saying I'm going to change the, you know, the play, but I would like very much to have creative abilities.

And so they said, okay. And I auditioned, you know, once I auditioned, they said, okay. And I did the job the way that she was doing it. And I was very loyal to the part of Fanny Bryce. And I, but I changed certain things that were just me. And so I was prepared from the get go, you know, to go on. But that's another story. You want to hear it?

[22:48] Kevin David Thomas: Yes, please.

[22:53] Lainie Kazan: I was a year and a half in the show. I was a Ziegfeld Shop Follies showgirl. I was, we were like the backstage beauties, you know, everybody wanted to go out with us. We had Manhattan was ours. And we had the best time. But every night I would come to the theater and go, Oh my God, is she sick? Is she not sick? Am I going to go on tonight? I would watch and finally I, oh, and everywhere I went in New York in that year and a half, people would say, you know, if you ever go on, call me. So I had a little book and I write their name and their number down. And I finally got the call.

[23:36] Lainie Kazan: After a year and a half? After a year and a half. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And it was a Wednesday, it was a Tuesday night. And I came, they called me up and said, Barbara has strep throat. You have to come in and go on stage with the real actors. I had never been on stage with the actors. I was just, you know, I always work with the understudies. So I was schlepped from pillar to post, you know, uh, Sidney Chaplin was incredible to me. It was just a dream. And I, I, I rehearsed, I went into Barbara's dressing room, dressed in her costumes. I mean, I had her housekeeper helping me and Oh my God, I was in paradise, but I was a nervous wreck.

[24:33] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah. I mean, a nervous wreck. And I, Oh, by the way, I called everybody on my list and they all showed up and suited Barbara and Barbara went up and Barbara was in.

[24:45] Lainie Kazan: In the wings and I was waiting in the wings and she walked right past me and walked onto the stage and I was devastated. Devastated. I went next door to the coffee shop. There was a little coffee shop and I just cried my eyes out. I went back to the theater because I had to and I went home that night. When I got up in the morning, it was headlines all over the newspapers. Show goes on but Lainie doesn't. It ain't funny, girl. Oh, my God. They call me up for this double matinee and evening performance. You are going on today. You cannot call a soul. I said, can I please call my mother? And my mother had a duplicate list and she called everybody back. Yes, she did. And they all came. Not all but a lot of the people came back and they wrote me up in Time Magazine.

It was just an amazing success and I gave my notice after that. I gave a two-month notice because I got a record contract. I got books all over the whole universe. I got a manager. William Morris signed me up. It was actually overwhelming. It was just a little too much for me. How did you keep yourself together and your feet on the ground? I did. You did not. I was handled. I was handled by a lot of very powerful men who expected me to do whatever they said. What they wanted. Yeah. And I was privileged to watch Barbra Streisand deal with a success at 19 years old and she did not handle herself with the kind of softness that I had. I was very soft and very fragile. And she was a ballbreaker. She would tell Garson Kane, well, fuck you.

But it was a difficult time. And I said, I love Barbra. She is a great woman. She had a big, big job. And I really respect what she did. I mean, I can't imagine myself at 19 years old carrying that kind of responsibility and doing what she did. She was amazing. And I learned so much from her. I learned some good things and some bad things. I became tough like she did. You know, and it didn't work for me. It just became I was a bitch. She wasn't a bitch, but she didn't look like, you know, she didn't have big breasts and was a sexy girl. You know, you know, that wasn't they didn't like me. They didn't like me when I was tough. They didn't like me. I mean, I'm talking about the press. Yeah. So I went back to who I was, but it took a long time.

It took a long time for me to understand. I mean, when I say I learned so much from Barbara, that was my that was my example of what a star did. I didn't know anything else. She was difficult. She was very, very knowledgeable. She knew what she wanted and she got it. She would say, I'm not doing it that way. Oh, just listen to me. This is how I want it. That's what I want the end to be. And she would get it. She would change all the music. She would change all the dialogue. She was unbelievable. And it was great because it was intrinsic. It was something was coming from her. And it was that's why she was so brilliant, you know. Mm hmm. And I thought I could do that, but I couldn't. And now I can do it now. No, of course. Of course. It took me 80 years.

[29:23] Lainie Kazan: Hello there. This is Eva Gabor and Eddie Albert. Yes. Before we were on Green Acres, we were both Broadway babies and we love listening to Behind the Curtain, Broadway's living legends. And don't forget to tell them to put pasties on and a pastry. No, don't put pasties. Go to Patreon.com and set a donation. Yes, Patreon.com. Oh, do it for me, not for Zsa Zsa. Welcome to the theater, darling.

[30:05] Lainie Kazan: So your career is taking off. You have all these wonderful albums coming out, club dates everywhere. You even posed for Playboy, I believe. Well, that was that was interesting. I was doing a movie. It wasn't my first movie. Dayton's Devils was my first movie. And I wanted to do Dayton's Devils, not because the script was great, but because I wanted to know what it was like to step in front of a camera and, you know, and be on in a movie set, on a movie set. I was doing this movie called Romance of a Horse Thief with Eli Wallach and David Opatashe, who was in Bravo Giovanni with me. And he would always say you're going to play my grandmother, who was a madam in Poland. And I want to write the script for you.

So and I did. And he hired Yul Brynner and Eli Wallach. And it was the first time I really understood what acting was and, you know, film. And it was a great experience. So there was a cameraman on the on the set who said, you know, you could do for the Jewish woman what Sophia Loren did for the Italian woman. Take her out of the kitchen. No more matzo balls. No more, you know, no more election. And, you know, make you a beautiful, sexy woman riding on a horse in the desert. I'm on. I said I'm on. And so when we got back to New York, he asked, it was Larry Schiller who wrote, very famous author and photographer. He had photographed Marilyn Monroe and Susan Atkins. That was his big claim to fame.

Susan Atkins from the Manson family. And, you know, Marilyn Monroe. And so that was it. And so he wanted to photograph me. And I thought, wow, I'm so lucky. You know, this guy wants to photograph me. He said, it'll be like Rubin paintings. And he did. He photographed. They were gorgeous photographs. And I thought, what can I do that Barbara Streisand can't do? I can do this. Possibly she could have done it, but she wasn't going to at that time. And so I did it. And I did it because I was an artist. I thought my body was beautiful at the time. It was like a work of art. And I never thought of it as being naked. I didn't think of myself as doing something, you know, smutty. No, I thought of it, it's beautiful.

And some of the pictures were a little smutty to be honest with you, but they weren't, they weren't bad. They were just above the waist. They're stunning. Beautiful. And is this what sort of leads you to Hugh Hefner and the jazz clubs or unrelated? Well, yeah, well, in a way, in a way, it was Seesaw first. So let's, let's talk about that. So you've been doing club dates. You were on Dean Martin, numerous times. I was on numerous, 26 times. And you said he was a doll to work with you. Oh God, I just did a documentary that Scorsese is doing on Dean Martin. So I just did it, a piece for them. I loved it. I loved him. And is that, is that what sort of led you into the world of Seesaw? Well, then I got pregnant, and I was having my baby, who's now going to be 50.

Oh my gosh. That's crazy. I have a two year old. And so I can't even imagine, you know, knowing that they grow up. She's 90 years old. And I remember carrying her around like a football. Totally. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, she's, she's a great girl. And I was taking some time off. I was really exhausted. And I read in the papers that Stuy Coleman, who I dated, when I lived at the Whitby apartments on 45th Street and 8th Avenue, used to buy me my groceries, and take me to all these parties and have the woman on his arm. Oh my God. I would go to parties with Stuy Coleman. I said, you're doing Seesaw? Gittel Mosk is my favorite character in the whole world. I am Gittel Mosk. I don't have to go very far.

I am. He says, fly in and you can just meet everybody and we'll audition you. So I came in. I sang a song. I think I sang The Man That Got Away. I did a scene from the play. Michael Stewart was there, who wrote the book for Seesaw. And they hired me. And I was working like, I was taught, slowly, going inside myself. I would not learn my lines like, you know, like wrote. I would learn my lines as I worked, which I now don't do anymore. But that was the way I was taught. So they started getting nervous. We were, you know, I was not learning my lines and I need to lose weight. And I, they put me in a, they wrapped me in plastic and put me in a, some kind of a heating thing to lose weight. And I would ride on a bicycle every night.

Like, you know, indoor bicycle, they would send me to a gym. They butchered me, they tormented me. I would study my lines every night, wrapped in cellophane. Seriously, I was wrapped from head to toe, so that I would perspire and lose weight. And I lost a lot of weight, but I was not feeling well. I wasn't, I was very tired, very not good. Then our direct, our producer got arrested for assault and battery. And so the whole production just started off with no leader, you know, no leader. And Larry Kasher, who was the associate producer, was on Funny Girl as well. We're in Detroit.

[38:38] Lainie Kazan: Ed Sheeran, who I think was out of his league. He never had done a musical, but he was wonderful to me. And he loved my performance. And he was complimentary. And one night he took me to dinner. He said, listen, I'm going to be fired. He said, but even though I'm going to be fired, you're going to be here. And I want you to be comfortable. And I want you to know what you're doing is wonderful. And yadda, yadda, yadda. Okay. The next day, different directors started coming in. And Michael Bennett was one of them. Michael Bennett never would see me. I would ask, could I have a meeting with him? He would not see me. I would get messages that he was too stoned. This is the 70s. Okay. He's too stoned to come see you tonight.

He's relaxing. I would speak to Avion, whatever his name was. And it was heartbreaking. Absolutely heartbreaking. And they never said anything to me. And my manager at the time was Ray Katz, who was a big manager. And he called me and I'll never forget it was the middle of January. And I was in Detroit and it was freezing cold. And it was dark and damp and everything was like the air was cold. And he said to me, listen, you are going to be fired. You're going to be replaced. He said, you're going to be replaced. You're going to be replaced by Michelle Lee, who was one of my dearest friends in the whole world. And she didn't call me. She didn't say anything. And, you know, we were in Giovanni together, Bravo Giovanni.

We were like this. So I said, and they said, he said to me, you can stay and be a mensch, you know, really be respected for staying. Or you can leave the show and they'll close the show and reopen it with Michelle. And I just about, I could not handle between everything that had happened in my life. My daughter was with me. My husband was taking care of my home, Peter. And it was, it was a terrible, terrible time in my life. And I'll never forget. I went out with Sal Mineo one night and Morgana Kane. I went out with them and we went to a restaurant and he took his glass and he said to me, well, welcome to the land of the losers. And I played in some heavy traffic for a while. I would not come back.

I stayed in New York thinking they're going to find out that Michelle Lee is not Ghetto Mosca. They are going to find this out. And I'm going to be, I was demented. I really thought that they were going to call me up and tell me, come back to the show because I was so good. I mean, it was the best performance I ever gave in my life. And, um, and then I started with the balloons and Tommy Tune and that was a ridiculous show. It had been a small, it had been chorus line. That's when Michael Bennett got his idea. I will leotards and tights and just change my outer garments. And I, it was a very small show. And he got his, and he used all the people in the show, you know, all the stories of the dancers.

And, um, I hated him. I absolutely fucking hated him. And I remember when I got nominated for my big, my, for my favorite year, I was in a gay restaurant downtown in the Soho area. And I walked over to his table and I said, my, and he was drunk. And I said, Michael, I want to thank you for my career. Yes. Yes, you did. Yes, you did. I did. I went, I worked in all the toilets of America after that. I couldn't get a job. I couldn't get a job. No, no, no club would hire me. Nobody would do anything. So that's when I went to Wisconsin to the Playboy resort. I was working in Milwaukee and some down and out saloon, and I was working. I didn't get paid. They didn't, they messed me up with my money.

And so I called the Playboy club up there. And I said, you know, I used to work up here. I don't know if anybody's here that I know, but I'd love to come up and spend a weekend. If I could just sleep in a bed, that would be so great. They said, of course you can come up, Miss Kazan, just come on. So I went with my nanny and my baby. And I think one or two musicians came with me. We had beautiful rooms and I, and the director of entertainment was, was there. And the, the manager of the hotel, they invited me to dinner. And I walk in the room that I used to play in. And they said there was a group there called the Shaggy Gorillas minus one buffalo fish. That was the name of the group. And so I said, what the hell are they doing here?

Wasn't this a great jazz room? And I said, Playboy and jazz was synonymous. You should da da da da da. And he says to me, would you like to go to Chicago and meet with Hefner and with Victor Lowndes and give him all your ideas? I didn't have all of those ideas. I just had this one idea that they should have jazz in the rooms. And that what jazz wasn't anywhere I've been there in 19, I think it was 73 or something, 75. And you knew a lot about clubs. You knew a lot about them. I spent my life from the late sixties. So I met with Hefner, I went down in the free, oh, it was 76. It was the freedom van. They got me a freedom van. It was 1976. And I went down in my jeans and my sweatshirt. And I met with Hefner and Victor Lowndes.

And I said to them, this is what you should do. And they said, listen, we have a little club in Los Angeles and it's really not doing well. There's cocaine dealers. We've got to get out that element. It's very bad. And we will support you and we'll give you X amount of dollars to open the club. I'll take it. I knew nothing. I didn't know what I was going to do. He put me up in Westwood. I started by getting, putting tablecloths down and flowers. And I took all the famous paintings. I didn't know they were famous. I took them all down and put up all these pictures of myself in the room. And I booked all the jazz artists that I knew. Sarah Vaughan, Morgana King, Frida Payne. Oh my God. It went on and on.

I just, I knew everybody, but I opened the club. I stayed there for two months and then got a roster of artists to fill in for me. And all of a sudden my career took off. I started working to Fairmont and working at different clubs. And then I got a job in a little movie because I had so much publicity. I was the first woman to run nightclubs.

[47:12] Kevin David Thomas: Were you treated differently because of your gender as an entrepreneur?

[47:20] Lainie Kazan: I was.

[47:21] Kevin David Thomas: In what ways, please?

[47:23] Lainie Kazan: The bunnies did not like me. I was in charge of them and they would walk through the spotlight like this. And I had no serving clause, you know, so they didn't, they weren't making as much money, but in the long run they made more money because another clientele, a much more affluent clientele would come in. And the place started to really get a lot of recognition. And I advertised on airplanes and I mean, it was unbelievable. I did all my own advertising. I did all my own ads. I had Sally Kirkland, who's a wonderful actress. She was my press agent. And Carl Parsons who were, they were just two of my friends. And I had all my friends from my friends down at the flower mart and there were fresh flowers in there every night. And it was an opportunity and a responsibility that I loved. I mean, I love being in the, in an entrepreneurial position. And I felt strange when I would put on a costume and become an actor again, I felt immature.

[48:34] Kevin David Thomas: Did you ever think about leaving acting behind?

[48:40] Lainie Kazan: I did. In fact, I looked for a club. Oh, and then I opened a club in New York.

[48:44] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[48:45] Lainie Kazan: I did that February 78.

[48:49] Kevin David Thomas: And what were the names of your clubs?

[48:51] Lainie Kazan: Laney's Room.

[48:52] Kevin David Thomas: That's perfect.

[48:53] Lainie Kazan: Laney's Room West and Laney's Room East.

[48:56] Kevin David Thomas: So here you are doing something I don't think you ever imagined yourself doing and being incredibly successful at it and revolutionizing the industry at the same time, which is so incredible and impressive. What then made you want to go back to performing?

[49:10] Lainie Kazan: It was one from the heart. Francis Coppola and I went to school together. We went to Hofstra and we were friends for years and years and years. And he came to hear me sing at the Fairmont while I had my clubs.

[49:30] Lainie Kazan: I was a woman who lived in San Francisco. And she was a woman who lived in San Francisco. And you know, it wasn't always wonderful. I mean, I would get a call, you know, somebody's husband was just killed at the airport, and you have to come back. You have to open on Tuesday. You know, I just was, you know, I was always on the call. And I said, you know, I live in San Francisco. And he came, he was living in Napa. And he came to hear me sing, and he said, you are really funny. I said, I am? He said, you're hysterical. I said, what did I do? He said, you are, you are just a funny person. I can't explain it. He said, but I'd like to pick you up in my big car, I have a friend who's going to have dinner with us, and all the people I went to college with were working for him.

And he was up there, he called it the Hofstra Nostra. And we went up to Napa and had this dinner. And he handed me this script of One from the Heart. I said, you mean I'm going to be in a movie of yours? I mean, I couldn't believe it. And it was that movie that made me, I had to leave. I had to leave the clubs, I just had to. It was too important. I sold my name to them for a year. And I thought I'd come back. But my career just took off right after One from the Heart. I did My Favourite Year, and then I did Beaches, and you know, my career was just booming. And did not stop.

[51:21] Robert W. Schneider: When you were doing so much on-camera work, did you ever get a call from your manager, were you enjoying it?

[51:26] Lainie Kazan: I couldn't. I was making so much money, and I was so successful with being nominated for a Golden Globe. Then I got a call that My Favourite Year was being done as a Broadway show. Lynn Ahrens called me. And I went back, and I said I would do it.

[51:48] Robert W. Schneider: Had you known her previously?

[51:51] Lainie Kazan: No. She begged me to come back. And I thought to myself, it's a limited run. It'll be six months, and it'll be over with. And of course, then I got nominated for Tony.

[52:08] Robert W. Schneider: What was it like to revisit this character, but in a totally different medium?

[52:13] Lainie Kazan: Strange. Because I was so intimate, the character was on-screen, the camera was looking in on me, so I could be whatever I wanted to be. But I had to go out to do the play. I had to, like, it had to see me. It had to feel me. Now, the movie is one of the greatest comedies ever made, I think.

[52:39] Robert W. Schneider: I think so, too.

[52:43] Lainie Kazan: Okay, good. But, and I love the score to the musical, but unfortunately, the musical just didn't get the same sort of glowing reviews that the movie did. Do you have an idea of why that might be?

[52:55] Lainie Kazan: Peter O'Toole was in it.

[52:57] Robert W. Schneider: Tell us a little bit about Peter O'Toole.

[52:59] Lainie Kazan: Oh, my God. I have to tell you the first time I met him.

[53:05] Robert W. Schneider: Please.

[53:07] Lainie Kazan: Mel Brooks was the producer of My Favourite Year, the movie. I don't know if people know that. So he said, on the first day, he said, would you like to meet Peter O'Toole? I said, oh, my God. I'm so nervous. I love him. I idolize him. So I go into the knock-on-the-trailer, and I hear, come in. And his head is in the sink, and he's wearing his little jockey shorts. And his little skinny legs. And he takes off his shirt. And he goes, I'm Peter O'Toole. And he goes, and he's wearing this great white and skinny legs. And he takes the towel, and he puts it on his head and twirls it around. And he puts it in the back, and he's wearing this towel on his head, and his little underpants. And he says, Miss Kazan, I am so pleased to meet you.

I'm honored. And dressed like that, you would have sworn he was in a tuxedo. He was the most wonderful, generous, kindest, most brilliant man I've ever worked with. I loved him. And did you know that he brought me flowers in the scene? That wasn't in the scene. When I went, for me? And he said, and Lou Jacoby goes, no, no, for me. And he brought me those flowers. It was all an improvisation.

[54:24] Robert W. Schneider: That's great.

[54:26] Lainie Kazan: That's great. God, it's such a good moment. I'm going to cry. I'm going to cry. That's great. God, it's such a good moment.

[54:39] Robert W. Schneider: So you think the musical really wasn't succeeding because it didn't have that?

[54:43] Lainie Kazan: I think that Peter O'Toole was in it. I think Tim Curry was wonderful. I think they also took out all the gang stuff, the mafia stuff.

[54:52] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, yeah. I don't know why they took it out. And being nominated for a Tony Award? Was that also a thrill for you? I mean, Golden Globe nomination, Emmy nomination for something elsewhere, and a Tony nomination. I mean, what a wonderful career of blessings.

[55:07] Lainie Kazan: I'd like to get an Academy Award nomination. I need to get that. It's not too late.

[55:14] Robert W. Schneider: I would love to ask you, if I can, just a couple of questions about, you know, your craft, if I may. What do you look for out of a director? For you, what's the ideal actor-director relationship?

[55:22] Lainie Kazan: A person who can take my ideas as well. And allow me to inject what I feel into my performance. And has an open heart. And an open mind. And someone who's not dictatorial. You know, Francis was kind of like that, until he got angry. And then it was difficult. But, you know, I think, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It was difficult. But Francis Coppola is a great director.

[56:00] Robert W. Schneider: And when you go into a rehearsal process, do you enjoy a lot of table work? Or do you just want to get up on your feet and start trying things?

[56:09] Lainie Kazan: I do want to try.

[56:11] Robert W. Schneider: You want to get up?

[56:13] Lainie Kazan: I want to get up and try. But I also appreciate a table read. And I appreciate a couple of them. You know, to just kind of just sit and enjoy the script. And feel what I feel gets to my ideas. And then put it on its feet.

[56:27] Robert W. Schneider: Mm-hmm. And, you know, they say, because you teach now as well, you know, they say a lot of times, you know, by your pupils you were taught. Is there anything that your students have taught you over the past few years of your teaching that you want to take with you when you go back up on stage or you go back in front of a camera again?

[56:44] Lainie Kazan: Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. I've had to have a lot of patience. Patience with them.

[57:01] Robert W. Schneider: I'm sorry, patience with them?

[57:03] Lainie Kazan: Yeah. Patience with myself. Patience with my director. Patience with the other actors. Because I've never been patient. And the students... I wish I had had the patience. People have been patient with me. And that's what I look back on. Patience. And that's what I look back on with my Seesaw experience.

[57:24] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[57:29] Lainie Kazan: And I think to myself, if only they had patience with me. Going back to Seesaw for a second, if I can, did you change your process after Seesaw? Did you think in some way that you were being penalized for your process and therefore you had to change it?

[57:43] Lainie Kazan: Yes, I did. And I did change it, but I didn't change it. I changed it so it would look like it was changed.

[57:50] Robert W. Schneider: Can you elaborate on that?

[57:52] Lainie Kazan: I learn my lines. I don't wait till I'm on the stage to learn my lines. I don't wait till I'm in rehearsal. I come in with my lines. That's my job. Then I keep myself open. I don't ask too many questions. I just do my job. But I don't share my process. I don't share my process. I don't share my process. I don't share my process. I don't share what I'm doing. And I do it faster. If you do it at home, and if you really are doing it so that it becomes natural and it becomes who you are and your character, then you can bring that on the stage. I don't wait till I'm ‑‑ there's not too many directors who will allow you to do it faster. I don't do it fast. I don't do it fast. I don't do it fast. I don't do it fast. I don't do it fast. I don't do it fast. I don't do it fast. I don't do it fast. It's just a lot of work for you to explore. And that's what I find.

[58:53] Robert W. Schneider: Do you think that's because of their own insecurity? Do you think that comes out of a ‑‑ we have very little time?

[59:04] Lainie Kazan: Money. And it's very sad. Because years ago, you knew that film was a place that you had time to develop. But now film has got the same kind of, you know, money. It's a different kind of money. It's money problems. You know? I mean, we have six weeks. We got to get it in. Got to get it in the can. Television and film are the same now. Come on set. Know your lines. Do your work. Now, I must say that all the films that were nominated this year look to me like they took their time.

[59:44] Robert W. Schneider: Yes.

[59:46] Lainie Kazan: Yeah.

[59:48] Robert W. Schneider: Well, let me ask you, you know, you are such a warm figure and mean so much to so many people based on your, you know, maternal performances in film and television, like My Big Fat Greek Wedding, The Nanny, et cetera. Do you enjoy having people come up to you on the street and go ‑‑

[1:00:02] Lainie Kazan: Yeah, I do. I do because they have so much love in them. And they really appreciate what ‑‑ and they say such lovely things to me. And we enjoy watching you. We have enjoyed watching you. And we love you. And we have enjoyed watching you for so many years. Any time that we know that you are in a project or you are going to be doing your act, we know that we are always going to see a brilliant and beautiful moving performance.

[1:00:30] Robert W. Schneider: Lainie, thank you so much for spending time with us today.

[1:00:34] Lainie Kazan: Thank you so much, Robert.

[1:00:36] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you for listening to today's episode. And a big thanks to the Punchy Players, Jeff Marquis, who is bringing back Lucy, Betty, Judy and Morta Schill for us. And a big thanks to our sound editor, Daniel Schwartzberg, and social media manager, Bethany Ann Selecki. And don't forget, we want more folks to hear these incredible stories, and that's where you come in. In order for people to find out about us, we need lots of ratings on iTunes. So head on over to iTunes, search for Behind the Curtain, Broadway's Living Legends, click on our logo, click on ratings and reviews, then write a review and leave us five stars. And make us feel as special as Eliza Doolittle on Eliza Doolittle Day. Or you can leave us just one star, and you can make us feel as baddy, baddy, bad as Annie did in that really weird production in Boston where Annie dreamt that she was being adopted, but then she ended up back where in the orphanage, right? Back where she started. Yeah, true story. Rob saw it.

[1:01:31] Robert W. Schneider: Yes, and it was baddy. It was bizarre. I was there. I was. Oh, good. Good.