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[0:01] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, I'm Rob Schneider.

[0:07] Kevin David Thomas: And I'm Kevin David Thomas.

[0:09] Robert W. Schneider: And this is BEHIND THE CURTAIN, BROADWAY'S LIVING LEGENDS.

[0:12] Kevin David Thomas: Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at BroadwayCurtainPodcast.

[0:16] Robert W. Schneider: Plus, you can always listen to all of our episodes, old and new, on the Broadway Podcast Network, iTunes, and Spotify.

[0:22] Kevin David Thomas: Today's guest has just about done it all in the theater. He is, here's the long list, are you ready for this? He's a casting director, audition coach, career coach, I need that, writer and teacher who has worked with some of the greatest artists in the American theater, as well as having served as Executive Director of Casting for Disney Theatrical Productions and Senior Vice President of Casting and Creative Development for Live Ent.

[0:46] Robert W. Schneider: Live Ent, yes. And here is just a small list of the shows he has had a hand in bringing to life. Let's see, The Original Parade, Sweet Smell of Success, one of my favorites, Seussical, Kiss the Spider Woman, Phantom of the Opera, The World Goes Round, Sunset Boulevard, Candide, Show Boat Ragtime Fosse, and so many more.

[1:06] Kevin David Thomas: And literally, we mean so many more. To tell us what it was like to work with such legends as, it's just a handful of them, folks. Hal Prince, Garth Drabinsky, Susan Stroman, Oscar Eustace, Julie Taymor, Marvin Hamlisch, Jason Robert Brown, and so many more. Here is Arteos Award-winning Casting Director, Arnold Mungioli.

[1:22] Arnold J. Mungioli: Arnold, how are you doing today?

[1:24] Arnold J. Mungioli: Hello, gentlemen. Thank you for that wonderful introduction. I was trying to follow the shows in my mind. And I was like, yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. That was so fun. Nobody's ever spoken that back to me. Thank you.

[1:38] Kevin David Thomas: This resume is so impressive. Okay, Arnold, so we're going to start off really basic. For those of us who might not know what a casting director does, can you give us a simple definition? And I know it ain't a simple job.

[1:49] Arnold J. Mungioli: The casting director is the person hired by the producer to identify the actors and bring them to the director and the creative team so that they can make the very best choices. We are all casting directors. We're hired for our taste. We're subjective. There's no secret list of actors. I mean, of course, now there's infinite YouTube posts and social media people you can find. But really, in terms of trained, solid, good actors who do what we do, you can't – they're not hidden from any of us. So we're hired for our taste and we're hired for our standards and for what we bring to it. And we are a part of the process in that way. Mostly, I think other people take credit for our work, and I'm not saying that with even a trace of bitterness.

It makes perfect sense. I always say to young people in casting, we are pre-production. And on any show, on any movie, on any Broadway show, on any production, the point is to keep pre-production expenses down. Because if you're doing a film, for example, and you hit a week of rain, you've got to keep all the actors and all the crew there, and suddenly you're spending an extra $150,000, half a million dollars a day you weren't anticipating. So pre-production must be kept as low as possible. I wish I had known that when I started. But also, it's a strange area because we are completely done. You are done with us when you start rehearsal. And then you go into that whole journey and adventure and all the things that happen.

And then you have all of the previews and the show opening and the Broadway opening night. Very often we show up and the director's kind of like, oh yeah, I remember you, because it's a lifetime away when our work was completed. So we have a very strange relationship with production, but it's also a really wonderful relationship because we get to be the bridge between talent and people we so believe in and the people behind the table, the directors, the people who we all so believe in.

[4:03] Arnold J. Mungioli: Peter Stone used to say so brilliantly, auditioning is a lot of nervous people in front of a lot of nervous people. It's so true, though. It's so true. The great book writer, I mean, gosh, it's so true. I always say that when you're behind the table, you're actually more nervous because the actor has five or six other auditions maybe that week. I've only got one show. So I'm a little bit more nervous than everybody else is when I'm behind the table.

[4:34] Kevin David Thomas: Absolutely. And I always try to, when I teach, I always try to explain to actors, think about it. You're auditioning in front of people who have borrowed maybe $80 million. I mean, I'm a person who, if I'm ever in a situation where someone has to spot me $20, I wake up in the middle of the night to the sound of a cash register bell. Oh, I owe my friend $20. I've got to make sure I make good on that. Can you imagine having like $80 million of borrowed money and then watching people sing and trying to enjoy it? Wow. What a room.

[5:08] Arnold J. Mungioli: Arnold, that's such a healthy way of putting it, and I think that relieves a lot of stress on the actor. Now, you mentioned the word taste. Do you think that's the defining characteristic of what separates one casting director from another?

[5:24] Arnold J. Mungioli: Personally, I do. Now, there's a lot of different points of views. I'm just going to Google to type in population of the earth and get the current number, which is 7.753 billion people. That's what Google says today. So what I try to point out is there's about, give or take, 1,000 members of the Casting Society of America worldwide. So I think that means having me with you today, people have a one in 753 million chance of talking to a casting director. We are not creatures that roam the earth in abundance. We are fairly rare in what we do. So when we say, are casting directors hired for their taste? I believe so, but also in one sense, any producer has a choice of 1,000 reputable first-run people, and how are they going to make that choice? They look at their body of work, and they say, I really like the shows that this person has done. In terms of actors and the general public and the general public's knowledge of what we do, they don't meet many of us.

[6:41] Kevin David Thomas: No.

[6:42] Arnold J. Mungioli: So it's kind of an interesting-

[6:44] Kevin David Thomas: It is. And to actors, having been one, the casting directors are like God sometimes because you're the gatekeeper. And it's a wild dichotomy of this world of being pre-production and then this very important person to a whole group of sector of people. And I find that duality very fascinating.

[7:08] Arnold J. Mungioli: I love that you pointed that out because I see it quite the opposite. I live in a way where I'm just always channeling. I'm always trying to be receptive, grateful, ready, open, and willing to give the world around me why we're here. And I see it the opposite way. And I believe what you say is absolutely true, Kevin, that actors do see it as- Unfortunately, yeah. Oh, this casting director is the gatekeeper to my career or could or could not. But in reality, we need you because if you don't come in the room fully prepared, really having worked it, and now there's such a vibration around of actors feeling defeated, like, oh, it's all self-tapes. I don't have the energy of people watching in the room.

It's not live. People are fast-forwarding through this. Who knows if they're even watching? I'm half-hearted about it. I'm only just going through the motions now. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. We need you to be at your best because we only look good if you look good. We are only successful if you are successful. So the person with the power in the audition room is the actor, the center of focus, always. It's never us.

[8:20] Arnold J. Mungioli: And so that's kind of wild. I do remember many years ago, we were in final auditions for Showboat and Hal Prince was just, oh, my God, what a magnificent human to have had 10 years with was just one of the greatest gifts of my life. And he was so fun and so funny and had such a view on the process because he had just been through it through so many changes over so many years. And I remember his audition process was by the time he saw people, they had been approved by the choreographer and the music director and his resident director. They had been approved by everyone. So he knew all he had to do was pick which one. And sometimes the choreographer would say, this is not our best dance choice for that role, but I can make it work.

And in the case of Showboat, it was Susan Stroman. So she knew she'd make it work. And the music director would say, we'd have to lower the key for this one section of the song, but otherwise this person is fine to do it. They give Hal the information of what they could and couldn't do. And all he was doing was picking the one he liked from the final three or four. And so his auditions were very short. You would do a few lines, it's on stage in the theater. That's how he loved it because he wanted to see what the audience would see. And the actor would do a few lines and Hal would say, great, great. You're swell. You're swell. Thank you. That's terrific. Let's do a little bit of the song. And the actor would do maybe a verse and he'd say, you're swell.

That's swell. You're terrific. And it was less than two minutes that the actor was actually in front of Hal sitting out in the house in a big empty theater. And I remember seeing all these wonderful, I mean, major, the top names of Broadway who wouldn't want to audition for Hal Prince, you know, a new Hal Prince show. And I remember they were all very nervous and none of them were showing as well as they had showed in the various preliminary steps. And I leaned over to him and I said, Hal, you know, I just want to point out to you that these people are all really great. And I know you know that and you've seen them on stage, but I think they get nervous because this time with you is so brief.

And I think they feel like, you know, in two minutes, their entire career is going to be decided. And he listened and he really took that in and he nodded his head and he said, yes. And you know what? They're right. They're right. They're right. He was just, he had such a sense of humor about the insanity of this business and he just made it so fun because he was so present for it, you know.

[11:01] Robert W. Schneider: Arnold, how did you get in to this particular line of work? Were you an actor first?

[11:04] Arnold J. Mungioli: I was trying to do anything else. I really, I had decided that casting was just the one part of the industry that seems so insane to me. It's so much work. It's such thankless work. And I just thought, you know, I graduated college and yes, I went to NYU drama to be an actor, but I was also double majoring in theater administration. And very quickly, I became the guy that other actors would come to and say, we're doing a Chekhov scene. We don't really know what's going on. Would you look at it for us? Or we're doing a Shakespeare scene. Could you take a look at it before we present it in class? And I'm like, sure. And that sort of evolved into the place that I was by the time I graduated college.

And I thought, okay, I think maybe being an artistic director or commercial producer, or there are all these different positions that fascinated me and were interesting. And I was taught very wisely by my teachers that if you wanted to run a theater or be a part of a theater, the most important thing you can do is work every job. You don't want to be telling that person in the box office what they need to do for your theater unless you've been in that box office working and you know what that's about. And I really wish there were more of that, not just in our industry, but in the world of people just understanding, walk a mile in that person's shoes and then tell them what to do once you have an understanding of it.

So that's what I was doing. I was doing everything. And I remember going for an interview with the late, great Betty Ray, who was the casting director of, I think it was Guiding Light, or All My Children, I think it was Guiding Light, for so many years. One of the loveliest human beings you could ever meet. And I was sent for that interview because I was producing the first benefit at Ensemble Studio Theater for their theater. And I remember Judy Morgan, who was then the development director, saying to me, there's a great job available. The woman who casts Guiding Light is looking for an associate. You got to go. I recommended you. I said, okay, because I went to every interview. I never pre-decided, oh, I wouldn't do that.

I never did that. It's amazing to me that people do that today. They're like, no, I wouldn't go on that job. They're like, what's the matter with you? You need a job. Go on the interview. And so I went and we had the loveliest conversation. I just adored her. She seemed to like me very much. And she said, so what do you want to do, Arnold? And I said, well, I've decided I want to do anything but casting. And she said, yes. And you're so wonderful and I'm just trying to figure out why you're here. And I said, I don't know. Judy Morgan recommended me to you and I show up for everything. I'm here. And then you know that saying life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. Yes. I was determined to direct and to do shows and to work with actors and it's so important to let go of that.

[14:45] Arnold Mungioli: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and to share my experiences in the casting world.

[15:05] Arnold Mungioli: I've been fortunate to work with some incredible talent over the years, and each audition brings its own unique challenges and rewards.

[15:27] Arnold Mungioli: One of the most important aspects of casting is understanding the vision of the director and the creative team. It's essential to align the right talent with that vision.

[15:47] Arnold Mungioli: I often tell actors that preparation is key. The more prepared they are, the more confident they will feel in the audition room.

[16:07] Arnold Mungioli: It's also vital for actors to be adaptable. Sometimes, a role may change during the rehearsal process, and being flexible can make all the difference.

[16:27] Arnold Mungioli: I've seen many actors who come in with a specific idea of how they want to portray a character, but the best performances often come from being open to direction.

[16:47] Arnold Mungioli: In my experience, the best auditions are those where the actor truly connects with the material and brings their own interpretation to the role.

[17:07] Arnold Mungioli: I encourage actors to find something personal in the material that resonates with them. This connection can lead to a more authentic performance.

[17:27] Arnold Mungioli: Additionally, I believe that casting is about storytelling. Each actor brings their own story, and it's our job to find the right fit for the narrative.

[17:47] Arnold Mungioli: I've had the privilege of casting some iconic productions, and each one has taught me something new about the art of storytelling through performance.

[18:07] Arnold Mungioli: The collaboration between the casting team and the creative team is crucial. We all work together to create a cohesive vision for the production.

[18:27] Arnold Mungioli: I also think it's important to foster a positive environment during auditions. Actors should feel safe to take risks and explore their creativity.

[18:47] Arnold Mungioli: Over the years, I've developed a keen eye for talent, but I also rely on my instincts. Sometimes, an actor may surprise you in the audition room.

[19:07] Arnold Mungioli: I've seen many actors who may not fit the traditional mold for a role but bring something unique that elevates the production.

[19:27] Arnold Mungioli: It's all about finding that spark, that special quality that makes an actor stand out from the rest.

[19:47] Arnold Mungioli: I often remind actors that rejection is part of the process. It's important to keep pushing forward and not take it personally.

[20:07] Arnold Mungioli: Each audition is an opportunity to learn and grow, regardless of the outcome.

[20:27] Arnold Mungioli: I've also had the chance to work with many talented directors and producers who have taught me invaluable lessons about the industry.

[20:47] Arnold Mungioli: Collaboration is key in this business, and building strong relationships with creative teams can lead to more opportunities down the line.

[21:07] Arnold Mungioli: I believe that mentorship is essential in our industry. I've had mentors who guided me, and I strive to do the same for emerging talent.

[21:27] Arnold Mungioli: It's rewarding to see young actors grow and succeed, and I take pride in being a part of their journey.

[21:47] Arnold Mungioli: The landscape of theater is always changing, and it's exciting to see new voices and perspectives emerging.

[22:07] Arnold Mungioli: I encourage actors to embrace their individuality and bring their unique experiences to their performances.

[22:27] Arnold Mungioli: Diversity in casting is crucial, and it's important to create opportunities for underrepresented voices in the industry.

[22:47] Arnold Mungioli: I've seen firsthand how diverse casting can enrich a production and resonate with audiences on a deeper level.

[23:07] Arnold Mungioli: As a casting director, I feel a responsibility to advocate for inclusivity and ensure that all talent has a chance to shine.

[23:27] Arnold Mungioli: The future of theater is bright, and I look forward to seeing how the industry continues to evolve.

[23:47] Arnold Mungioli: Thank you for allowing me to share my insights and experiences. It's been a pleasure discussing the art of casting with you.

[24:07] Arnold Mungioli: I hope that aspiring actors and casting professionals find inspiration in our conversation today.

[24:27] Arnold Mungioli: Remember, every audition is a chance to tell a story, and I encourage everyone to embrace that opportunity.

[24:47] Arnold Mungioli: Thank you once again for having me on the show. I appreciate the platform to share my passion for casting and the theater.

[25:07] Arnold Mungioli: I look forward to seeing the next generation of talent take the stage and make their mark on the industry.

[25:27] Arnold Mungioli: It's an exciting time to be involved in theater, and I can't wait to see what the future holds.

[25:47] Arnold Mungioli: Thank you for listening, and I hope to connect with you all soon.

[26:07] Arnold Mungioli: Keep pursuing your dreams, and never stop believing in your talent.

[26:27] Arnold Mungioli: The world of theater needs your voice, and I encourage you to share it with the world.

[26:47] Arnold Mungioli: Thank you again for this opportunity. It's been a joy to share my journey with you.

[27:07] Arnold Mungioli: Until next time, keep shining and making magic on stage!

[29:30] Arnold J. Mungioli: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and to share my experiences in the casting world.

[29:49] Arnold J. Mungioli: I’ve been fortunate to work with some incredible talent over the years, and each audition brings its own unique challenges and rewards.

[30:09] Arnold J. Mungioli: One of the most important aspects of casting is understanding the vision of the director and the creative team. It’s about finding the right fit for the role, not just in terms of talent but also in how the actor embodies the character.

[30:29] Arnold J. Mungioli: I always tell my students that preparation is key. When you walk into an audition room, you want to be as prepared as possible, not just with your lines but also with your understanding of the character and the story.

[30:49] Arnold J. Mungioli: I’ve seen many talented actors miss out on roles simply because they weren’t fully prepared or didn’t connect with the material in a meaningful way.

[31:09] Arnold J. Mungioli: It’s also crucial to be adaptable. Sometimes, a director may have a different vision than what you initially thought, and being able to pivot and adjust is essential.

[31:29] Arnold J. Mungioli: I remember casting a production where the director wanted to take the character in a completely different direction than what was traditionally expected. It was a challenge, but it ultimately led to a more dynamic performance.

[31:49] Arnold J. Mungioli: Another aspect of casting that I find fascinating is the diversity of talent. The industry has come a long way in terms of representation, but there’s still work to be done.

[32:09] Arnold J. Mungioli: I believe in casting based on ability rather than disability, and I strive to create opportunities for all performers, regardless of their background.

[32:29] Arnold J. Mungioli: It’s important to create an inclusive environment where everyone feels they have a chance to shine.

[32:49] Arnold J. Mungioli: I’ve had the privilege of working with many actors who have overcome significant obstacles to pursue their dreams, and their stories are truly inspiring.

[33:09] Arnold J. Mungioli: Teaching at NYU Tisch has also been a rewarding experience. I love sharing my knowledge and helping the next generation of performers and casting directors.

[33:29] Arnold J. Mungioli: My students often bring fresh perspectives and ideas, which keeps me energized and excited about the industry.

[33:49] Arnold J. Mungioli: I encourage my students to take risks and to not be afraid of failure. Every audition is a learning experience, and it’s important to embrace that journey.

[34:09] Arnold J. Mungioli: I also emphasize the importance of networking in this industry. Building relationships can open doors and create opportunities that you might not have otherwise.

[34:29] Arnold J. Mungioli: It’s not just about who you know, but also about how you treat people along the way. Kindness and professionalism go a long way.

[34:49] Arnold J. Mungioli: I’ve seen many talented individuals who may not have the best connections but succeed because they are hardworking and genuine.

[35:09] Arnold J. Mungioli: The landscape of theater is always changing, and it’s exciting to see new voices and stories being told.

[35:29] Arnold J. Mungioli: I believe that the future of theater is bright, and I’m excited to be a part of it.

[35:49] Arnold J. Mungioli: Thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts and experiences. It’s been a pleasure to discuss the world of casting with you.

[36:17] Arnold J. Mungioli: I look forward to seeing how the industry continues to evolve and how we can all contribute to that change.

[36:45] Arnold J. Mungioli: If anyone is interested in pursuing a career in casting or theater, I encourage you to reach out and ask questions. There’s so much to learn, and I’m always happy to help.

[37:13] Arnold J. Mungioli: Remember, every journey is unique, and it’s important to find your own path in this industry.

[37:33] Arnold J. Mungioli: Thank you once again for having me on the show. It’s been a wonderful experience.

[38:03] Arnold J. Mungioli: I hope to inspire others to follow their passions and to never give up on their dreams.

[38:31] Arnold J. Mungioli: The world of theater is full of possibilities, and I’m excited to see what the future holds.

[38:59] Arnold J. Mungioli: Thank you for listening, and I hope to connect with many of you in the future.

[39:27] Arnold J. Mungioli: Let’s keep the conversation going and continue to support one another in this incredible journey.

[39:55] Arnold J. Mungioli: Until next time, take care and keep shining your light.

[40:23] Arnold J. Mungioli: It’s been a pleasure to share my insights with you all.

[40:51] Arnold J. Mungioli: Thank you for tuning in, and I look forward to our next conversation.

[41:16] Arnold J. Mungioli: For most vulnerable selves, for me and for the actors, in this tiny, little audition room I had in my office. And it was just amazing, and then bringing Oscar into that, and having him experience this play he had worked on with Tony for years in a new way, and the humanity of how it was resonating with our culture at that particular moment in history. Those are the things that are, I don't know if hard is fair to say, but challenging and requiring a risk, and embracing not only that idea and this new way of thinking, and how art can be elevated to a place of art imitates life, imitates art imitates life, imitates art. You know, it's not just that, but also the humanity of two people in a room.

And again, I go back to that idea you introduced, Kevin, of like, wow, to actors, it's like, casting director is God. It's like, no, at my best, I'm a wounded angel, but I do what I can to protect and preserve the humanity of the actor and their vulnerability in that space. And sometimes, you know, I go home, and I bring those emotions with me to a place where I need to, okay, a little bit of meditation, a little bit of prayer, a little bit of quiet, a little bit of, you know, finding hope and being able to get up the next day and do it again. Yes, it's so personal, what we do. It really is. If you're doing it right, I mean, if you're really honoring the art.

[42:45] Arnold J. Mungioli: I want to shift gears a little bit, because it's going to change the mood a little bit, but tell us a little bit about Lyvent and your experience.

[42:53] Kevin David Thomas: No.

[42:57] Arnold J. Mungioli: He whose name shall not be spoken.

[43:00] Kevin David Thomas: I almost said the name too.

[43:01] Arnold J. Mungioli: I know, I know you said it.

[43:02] Kevin David Thomas: I was like, Voldemort?

[43:05] Arnold J. Mungioli: Yes, thank you. Actually, you know, it's funny you say that, because I did sue him, because on Suzatska, he owed me, I think it was $15,000, and then my contract for Paradise Square, which he blatantly violated, he owed me, I think, $35,000. And, you know, for an independent casting office, taking that hit of $50,000, really harmful, because it means that, you know, I'm not able to treat my very highly valued employees as well as I want to, because the company is coming up short because of one man's evil while he's sitting at a five-star hotel ordering plates of shrimp and his actors are suffering. And, you know, I worked with him for 35 years, so I remember at one of the original readings of Suzatska, I looked around the room and I thought to myself, oh, my God, with the exception of his children, I think I've known this man longer than anybody in this room, including his current wife.

And, you know, he came out of prison with this big, oh, I see a rabbi every week, and I've reformed, and I'm here now, I'm going to make amends, and I'm going to do this wonderful show and be extraordinary to everybody, and so fair, and I believe these things. And, you know, my optimism, my grateful, ready, open, willing optimism sometimes makes me a little gullible on things like that. I believed him, and it was all lies. And, you know, he was out to harm as many people as possible. It was a kind of toxicity that was – it's almost like, you know, when toxins are put into products and then they're incinerated in trash, it becomes a super toxin. It's like a super toxin version, and it was just really terrible for so many people. The man inflicted so much harm.

[45:00] Arnold J. Mungioli: In its heyday, however…

[45:04] Kevin David Thomas: I was just going to ask, like, was it always like that? Like, when you first started or however you first started, was it like that?

[45:10] Arnold J. Mungioli: He was always like that, but let's not talk about him. The shows, the quality of the shows, that adventure was extraordinary. You know, it's hard to describe. There are so many magnificent moments and great arcs of creativity that I got to enjoy and be a part of in that era.

[45:39] Kevin David Thomas: What was the first show?

[45:41] Arnold J. Mungioli: Well, I started working with Live Ent before I was hired to actually physically be there, whatever I was. Executive Vice President of Casting and Creative Development or whatever title it worked up to. I was working independently, and what had happened was I was working for Johnson Lift. Tara Rubin was on her first maternity leave, and they asked me to come and to work while Tara was on leave. I went in, and among the shows that fell to me in that configuration were Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. I brought in Donny Osmond, and that was quite a personal achievement because what had happened was the agent Donny was working with at the time. I had presented this idea, and the agent said, Well, I'll talk to him, and I'll get back to you.

You could hear him on a prehistoric cell phone. It was convertible on the highway in Los Angeles. I pursued it, and I went after him, and he kept not getting back to me. Finally, I approached him, and I said, The audition is two days from now, and you haven't given me a definitive answer. He said, Yeah, he's not going to be interested. I said, I don't believe you. The agent said, What? I said, I don't believe you. He's not doing anything else right now. This is a great role that in many ways was written for him. It is an ideal move for his career. I don't believe you've actually talked to him, but we've been having conversations for six weeks. I think you have a responsibility to your client to bring it to him.

If you will do that for me, I will arrange for a plane ticket, and I will get him on a plane in 24 hours and get him on stage at that theater to audition for this creative team. The agent called back and said, He'll do it. I said, Great. We had all major celebrities that day for that role because it was meant to be a star vehicle. It was just remarkable. Such an incredible human being. Also, such a lovely, lovely human being. One of the kindest, most generous souls. That happened.

[47:57] Arnold J. Mungioli: The person who shall not be named was so thrilled to learn that I was not a permanent employee of Johns and Liff and that I was freelance and independent that very shortly after that, Showboat was brought to me to work on The Halprin Showboat. I was like, Yes. Tiny cast. Yeah, 71, including I remember. I remember Jeff Johnson years ago. God rest his soul, said to me when it came time for the Arteos Awards. That's one of those is my Arteos for Showboat. When it came time to vote, Jeff told me that Andy Zerman in his office said to him because the nominees were their shows and mine. Andy came into his office and said, Jeff, I'm voting for Showboat. I don't care if I'm voting against ourselves.

71 people. Children. Children of color. Acrobats. Low base baritones who go to NF. High Sopranos. Mixed race, light skinned black woman who can play Julie. I am voting for Showboat. It's true. It's insane that you had to cast all that. Unbelievable. The thing is when you have people like Hal Prince and Susan Stroman at the helm, it's such a joyous process because you know you're working with people who share the goal of telling this story in the most magnificent way.

[49:27] Arnold J. Mungioli: And hearkening back to talking about Joanna Merlin. You know, what had happened was in the process, we were in the process of auditions. Again, I was still independent at this point, hired separately. It came to me. And there was no internet then. I mean, there kind of was. But people didn't have personal computers or phones or anything like today. I remember it came to me and I don't know how. But my own knowledge of theater history and of what had happened with the movie Showboat and Lena Horne auditioning and them hiring Ava Gardner from the MGM studios and using Lena Horne's skin tone to do the makeup for Ava Gardner and all the history of that. It was somewhere in the back of my mind with the rest of the history of American theater.

And it just sort of popped in somehow. And it occurred to me that having this role of Julie played by a white woman would not be something that would be okay. This was before much of this was talked about at all. And I called Joanna up and I told her about it. And I said, Joanna, Hal Prince is going to make a terrible mistake. And I don't know what to do. I have to tell him. And she listened to me explain about my feeling that there was a need to explain to him that the role of Julie needed to be played by a black woman and that would be important. And Joanna, I could hear her smile through the telephone because that's how she is. I said, Arnold, Hal is a very reasonable person. Call him up and tell him.

He will say yes. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to call up Hal Prince and talk to him like just Arnold Hal. And so I hung up the phone and I called up Hal Prince and I was like, Gold, I don't really want to tell you what to do because you have 21 Tonys and I have none. I work in an ineligible category of the industry. I don't know if you know, I assume you do, about Lena Horne and Ava Gardner and the casting of Show Boat. And I just feel like this role needs to be played by a black woman who is light skinned enough that it's believable that she is headlining up and down the Mississippi River with her picture everywhere in the 1800s and no one ever suspects that she's black. Right. It's a plot difference. I think it has to be a black woman. And then slight pause, very short. Arnold, of course, you're right. Go find her. Go find her. Where? How?

[52:10] Arnold J. Mungioli: So Lynette McKee originated the role. And then so many women, the beautiful, fabulous Terry Burrell, who I just adore. Marilyn McHugh opened the Chicago Company. And yeah, when we did that audition for that company, at that point, I was working in-house. So I was in Toronto and Hal was flown up for the audition for the Three Julie Candidates. And one was Terry and oh, sorry. One was Marilyn McHugh and one was another woman, not Terry, but another woman who was wildly talented, totally could play this role. And just an amazing force of nature. And Hal said, after seeing those two women, either one can do it. And he said to the producer, here's what I would do. What I would do is I would take this young woman who's not known at all and I would have her open the Chicago Company and I would make her a huge star because that would happen.

So that's what I would do. But I understand you're the producer and you have to make decisions for the financial well-being of the show. And Marilyn was fantastic. And again, also such a lovely human being. One of the few stars I ever cast who actually sent me a Christmas card every year. Just lovely person. And he said, you know, Marilyn's fantastic. And if as a producing decision you want to go that way, that's a perfectly valid and legitimate and wonderful way to go also. We have a plethora of riches here. But what I would do is take the unknown and make her a big star. But whatever you want to do is okay. And of course the producer, being who he was, went with the name. And again, I would not ever say a word against Marilyn McHugh.

She's phenomenally talented and just a lovely member of our community. And I adore her. Marilyn starred in Showboat in the city of Chicago. It completely revived and shined light on her career. She was wonderful. And the other woman became a welfare mom. What a world. Broken heart for every bulb on Broadway. Is that what they say?

[54:32] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They do indeed.

[54:36] Arnold J. Mungioli: Now, so Showboat, like you said, had what, 71, 73 people in it?

[54:41] Kevin David Thomas: 71 people.

[54:43] Arnold J. Mungioli: And it wasn't just Broadway, right? You had tours going out as well.

[54:47] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, yeah.

[54:49] Arnold J. Mungioli: We had five companies simultaneously.

[54:51] Kevin David Thomas: Five?

[54:53] Arnold J. Mungioli: Oh, my God. Yeah. I used to say that with the shows that I was in charge of, Showboat, Ragtime, Fosse,

[55:01] Arnold Mungioli: It was opportunities for actors. It was actors who might not have gotten a chance getting to do such great things and seeing how, you know, for all of us in creative fields, just a little leg up just to put out our hands and let somebody step there to get to the limb of the tree so they can climb it. It felt like doing that every day for such wonderful, talented people. And that's still what it is for me. You know, I'm still like, OK, let's create this opportunity. Let's find the person who is meant to play the role. Let's find the actor who has the hotspot and the gumption and the passion and shows up for their life in a way that they're going to walk in the room and claim that role. It's just that's the thrill of it.

You know, it must be fun to, you know, if you're not going through an agent, but the off chance when you get to talk to the actor directly and give them that job and the excitement that they have, you know, that unbridled joy. Like we got a gig. It's not, you know, it's not even the rest of your career, but this one job is everything, you know, and that's that joy. It must be real. Yeah, must be.

[56:59] Arnold Mungioli: I was incredibly open spirit, too. So you really respond to that. No, I think that's we need more people like you in the industry.

[57:16] Arnold Mungioli: Oh, go ahead. Sorry, please. I was going to say that the prime example of that for me was casting Fosse because Chet Walker created Fosse and is now in hospice care, which I didn't realize.

[57:29] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, I didn't realize.

[57:30] Arnold Mungioli: Yeah, which breaks my heart. What an amazing human being and a man who not only kept Fosse's legacy alive in so many ways when no one else was doing it, but actually affected gave us our best dancers of the last three decades through his training. And I feel like I could say a little bit about how that project came about.

[57:51] Robert W. Schneider: Please.

[57:52] Arnold Mungioli: Yes. Fascinating. You know, Chet Walker was Bob Fosse's dance captain on Dancing. So Fosse taught Chet how to teach it because as the dance captain, he needed to teach the people who were going in or the people who were going on for a role they weren't yet ready to go on for. And so Fosse taught Chet how to teach Fosse. And there's a lot of politics out in that world that I don't want to get into. But after Fosse died, everybody was kind of in shock because if you remember, we were in the throes of the AIDS crisis. And I remember Barry Moss trying to compose a condolence note to Bob's daughter, Nicole, and was struggling so much sitting at his desk. And he shook his head and sighed at one point.

And he said, How's this sound? Dear Nicole, we are so saddened to learn of your father's passing between him and Michael Bennett. One cannot help feeling that there's only Tommy Tune left. Because that was the pulse of things in that time. After a few years had passed, because we lost our whole next generation of choreographers. People don't realize.

[59:12] Arnold Mungioli: Composers and writers. And yeah, a whole lot of people, our industry was sort of stopped momentarily in the way that that Stalin stopped Russian drama. I mean, they got all the way to Chekhov, arguably the most masterful modern playwright. And then the censorship came in, and it all stopped. And it put a big pause in a development that with Stanislavski and Michael Chekhov and Anton Chekhov was going somewhere so amazing, it stopped. And the same thing happened to us in musical theater, in American musicals with the AIDS crisis. It just stopped everything. And then it had to reform. And somewhere in there, obviously, Fosse did not die of AIDS, but somewhere in there, maybe a year or two had passed.

And Chet had this idea, since he was sitting there with this gift of how to teach it and know when to give it to. So they brought together in a room, Gwen Verdon, Sam Cohen at ICM. I think he was Bob's agent at the time, but was very involved there. Cy Coleman, people had worked with Bob on his musicals, and all the key players, maybe nine or 10 people.

[1:00:26] Arnold Mungioli: And Chet had taught a group of dancers about five numbers that he knew well from, maybe it was Hey Big Spender and The Fugue and a few other things, and presented them in a rehearsal room he rented and said, we don't know what this is. We don't know what we're doing. We just wanted to do something and show it to you. And everyone was in tears by the end of it because, of course, it was work they thought they'd never see again. And they all begged him to continue. So he started teaching classes in this particular style of dance. And I think he offered them for free twice a week to any dancer who wanted to come and learn it. And that's what evolved into the show. And for me, the extraordinary thing was in that era, there was no email.

There was only telephone. And in that era, we didn't have agencies that represented dancers. Dancers were called gypsies at the time because they just went from show to show and traveled around wherever the job was. And they were not agent represented. So you would either have an open call or you would have to contact the dancer directly.

[1:01:40] Arnold Mungioli: So over the course of all these developments and workshops that created the show Fosse, over the course of that, it was an amazing thing. I got to talk to every major dancer in New York extensively. I'd be in my office every night until 10 or 11 p.m. and on the phone with all of them with these extensive instructions for auditions. All black. Fosse always wanted to see his dancers' bodies silhouetted in all black. Black leotards, black tights, no adornments. It's not makeup, but it's not no makeup. And every female dancer I talked to would say over the phone, they knew exactly what that meant. I didn't, but they did. And I was able to give them all of the information for them to come in and knock it out of the park.

It was a trick of Bob Fosse's to get his dancers hired, that what he would do is make them go out before they sang, take a break and dress up. He wanted his dancers to present like singers. He never let them come for the singing part of the audition in their sweaty tights. They had to go dress up, crimp up, fix their hair and come in looking even better than the singers looked. So they would be perceived by the music director and the creative team as a valid candidate as a singer. They were all of these tricks and I gave them to every dancer in New York. And it was a lot of phone conversations and it was wonderful. Dancers are such amazing creatures and so appreciative of anybody who's willing to sort of help them in this very confusing process. And it was amazing. It was so hands on and the exchanges that happened, just a remarkable process to put that cast together.

[1:03:40] Arnold Mungioli: And then of course, the day it opened in Toronto, when it finally got to opening, the whole scandal with that company was coming down. And I was with the producer at the opening night party. And the next morning I arrived at my office, I opened the door of the building and there were two men with machine guns standing in the lobby. And I froze. And they were very stoic, like the palace guards in Britain. And I was like, excuse me, I work here. And the guy nodded. He said, OK. And I said, is it safe to go in this building right now? And he said, it should be. And I said, it should be. You're holding a machine gun. This is an office. What's happening? And he said, I can't say. And I was like, I work on the third floor.

Is it safe for me to go to the third floor? And he said, yep. So I got in the elevator. I came out of the elevator and there were all these armed RCMP officers ransacking the entire floor of offices. And of course, as we know, there was some dirty business that that producer was sent to prison for. And the RCMP at the FBI level, what we would have in the States at the FBI, was going through every document and piece of paper and everyone's computer through the entire building. And it was one of the scariest experiences I've ever had. They were swarming the place. There were so many of them. And I remember everyone would look in my office. And of course, I had about five thousand playbills from shows I've seen.

And I had pictures and resumes of every actor in New York hard copy. There was more paper in my office or the equivalent of all the paper in the rest of the building. And so everyone who would come in would look around and go, nope, and walk back out. Or they'd come in and they'd say, I ain't doing this room. And then finally, this big galoof of a man in his uniform comes in and he goes, all right, I drew the short straw and he opened the file cabinet and he said, what's in here? And I said, those are pictures and resumes of every major actor in New York. And he shook his head because the files were packed so tightly. And then he closed it. But these were huge drawers. These weren't small file cabinets.

These are the big giant file cabinets with the drawers that open sideways in the wall. And he opened another drawer. He said, what's this? I said, same. And he pointed to the other drawers up and down the wall and said, all the same. And I said, yep. And he turned around and saw a wall of magazine files filled with playbills. And he said, what is this? And I said, these are all playbills from every show I've seen over the last 30 years. And I go to theater five to ten times a week. And he shook his head. And when they completed a room, they had this caution sticker that they stuck on the door to say it was done. And he just shook his head, took the sticker, slammed it on my door and said, I'm not doing this room. I said, well, the criminal should have hidden all the side letters in my office because obviously that was the only safe place in the building.

[1:06:54] Robert W. Schneider: Always casting. Wild that you were actually there for that when that all went down, though, that you saw it all happening. That's wild.

[1:07:04] Arnold Mungioli: Live and in person. And it was just an incredible. It's like the most toxic evil of corporate America. Well, I guess it was technically Canada, right? But it was incorporated in America. So the most toxic evil of the corporate heartless greed meets the most sensitive vulnerability of the most beautiful artists, dancers, singers, performers in, you know, as Brene Brown says, in your vulnerability, there lies your greatest strength. So seeing these people do their work in a way that allows for their full vulnerability and therefore their full command of an audience and to be willing to put that out there so many times every day as actors and dancers and singers do. Met with these men with machine guns respond to a kind of con man, a con man, you know, a bit con man.

[1:07:58] Robert W. Schneider: You know, wow. And you think, fool me once, fool me twice. But then we all crazy that it's right back, right back where you started. Anyway, I'm sorry, Rob, you're going to say something.

[1:08:06] Arnold Mungioli: No, no, no. I was just going to ask you, like, Arnold, how do you rebuild after that?

[1:08:11] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, especially in terms of trust and going with future collaborators.

[1:08:18] Arnold Mungioli: Yeah, I as a friend of mine often says to me, God is bigger than all of this. I'm pretty good at what I do. And I say that modestly because I have gotten I've had the privilege of doing it with such great people. I mean, you know, when you're on the phone with Hal Prince and he says, you called me about rebuilding.

[1:08:47] Arnold J. Mungioli: On the tour, I said, yes, Hal. Debbie Ducoudre, who's currently playing the understudy, is really qualified to do the role. She's just phenomenal in it. And I would really like you to audition her, if we could get her to you. And he said, you don't need to get her to me, Arnold. I trust you. Hire her. I'll do a little visual because I keep this on my desk. Old-fashioned black and white photograph that I just have on my desk. Sometimes I put it on my computer screen. I go, it's my screensaver. But, you know, when you have that, there's another one behind me, actually. I have a few alters to my favorites in here. This is from the Hal Prince exhibit they did at Lincoln Center just pre-pandemic.

And what they did was they had a screen with the titles of all his shows, like coming through in the center screen. And then the names of everyone he collaborated with around the screen at the entrance to the exhibit. And my name was bold and center and like right under Hal. And I was so honored by that, that I took pictures and framed it. And then the pandemic hit. Well, that was up. So two years later, a friend of mine came to New York with her. Actually, it was my partner's friend came to New York with her kids. And they were teenagers. And we went to the library because they needed to use the restroom. And we were out and about seeing New York and showing them New York. And the library gallery hadn't reopened.

So that was still there. And after they came from using the restroom, these two teenage girls, I was like, oh, it's still up. And my partner said, you know, oh, great. Come look at this. And they pointed because it was right in the center in bold. And they said, you see that name? And these girls thought I was the coolest person in the entire world. My name was in the library. You are the coolest person. Yeah, well, except for another few million. But thank you.

[1:11:05] Arnold J. Mungioli: So in our last few moments together, what I would love to ask you, Arnold and Kevin, please weigh in. So Kevin and I are both educators. And I know, Kevin, one of your primary focuses is teaching the art of auditioning. So I'm curious, Kevin, are there any questions that your students ask you or any misconceptions that you hear from students that maybe this would be a nice time for Arnold to dispel or Arnold? Same question for you, which is because you also are teaching a lot. Are there any misconceptions that artists have either about casting the casting process or casting directors? So I want to have a dialogue and a little bit, you know, and things that actors could do that, you know, often get they often get in their own way.

I mean, obviously, that's what I often find. And what's the advice? Because it's nice to hear, you know, this as teachers, but like, it's nice to hear the same thing, but said different ways. And so I'm just curious if you might, in addition to what Rob just asked, share some of the foibles that you often see actors make, especially newer actors in the business that haven't learned to fake it as well as the other ones, because there's an element of faking it. But, you know, some of the things that you see over and over again, in addition to what Rob said.

[1:12:18] Arnold J. Mungioli: Yeah, I can always put you on the spot. I've been doing this a long time. I can always spot faking it. And it's evolved, too. I recognize that, you know, the audition process, some of the basics are the same, but you know, the system has evolved, you know, and that's, that's less what I'm interested in more about, like, how to act, what can actors do that might help themselves?

[1:12:35] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, great question. Thank you. And I that's a whole other podcast, but I to try to just offer some succinct points. First of all, I have a unique perspective, because I love that you guys teach and, you know, Sondheim said teaching was the sacred profession. And if he had not been a lyricist, he would have been a teacher. And so I want to clarify, first of all, I'm a very active full time casting director, working with the staff and casting shows constantly, we have three major projects we're juggling right now. So my teaching is my class at NYU is called preparing for the profession. And a lot of the workshops I've done with universities and with actors, actors and theaters all over the country all over the world, really, have been along that line of stepping in from my role as a professional casting director to offer teaching that is really a time honored tradition in our industry, like, you know, in, I think the movie is stage beauty with Billy Crudup and Claire Danes, I think where you're learning about the troops of actors and how they roamed in the early 1900s. And how if you wanted to be an actor, you went an apprentice and sewed the costumes for the starring actors to learn from them doing it.

So I think there's one perspective that's like, oh, yeah, the actors who can't make it, you know, those who can't do what is it those who can do those who can't teach. And now we have a bunch of like, actors who haven't made it who are teaching bad habits to young actors, etc. And the education system is flawed. I don't think it's flawed. I think it's it's a time honored tradition in our industry, that the people who immerse themselves in this process, are the people who we want to learn from, to help us bridge from what we understand conceptually, to actually doing it in a way that brings out our best self, because every actor is unique and has a different life experience and story to tell.

[1:14:37] Arnold J. Mungioli: So in terms of what I would offer mistakes, I see that actors make a lot, lack of preparation. It's amazing. I remember being an audition a couple years ago with Michael Greif. And, you know, there was a new show with Michael Greif. And there were a lot of major people coming in. And then there was a spot that opened up because somebody fell out a day before. And I thought, well, here's this girl. I liked her in her showcase. She's talented. Let me give her a chance. There's space in the schedule. Let me give her the opportunity. And she came in. Actually, you know what, I misspoke there. That's not correct. It wasn't the day before. It was actually several days before, because that was a big element of it.

She had the material for, I think, like four days. And I just thought, you know, I think I'm going to give it to this newcomer to give her a shot. And she's got plenty of time with the material. She's got a good voice. She'll be able to knock it out of the park with this much prep time. And when she came in the room, she looked like she had not looked at the material. She had printed it out and she was unfolding it and looking at the pages like she had never seen it before and didn't even know where to start or which role she was auditioning for. And she read it like she was reading it out loud for the first time. And Michael just leaned back in his chair, looked over at me and said, a little prep.

How about a little prep? Just a little prep. Just a little bit. And it was like, you're right. Yeah, they, you know, actors sometimes have the misconception of, well, I'll just go in and read this cold. And if they like me, they'll work with me. And no, you got to bring to the table. Nobody is going to respond to anything unless you bring something to respond to.

[1:17:20] Arnold J. Mungioli: And my friend, Michael Mastro, who works on Broadway constantly, he's a pretty well known actor. Certainly when casting directors, everybody knows him. And immensely talented and marvelous man, basically goes from show to show to show. And I had him in my class once as part of a panel to speak to the group and to talk about his experience auditioning. And he said, this last, this show that I'm doing now, the audition prep I did on that was probably about 35 hours. And that's average for me. You know, I do 30 to 40 hours prep on any material I'm given when I'm auditioning for any major project. And I thought that was so key because sometimes actors will come to me and they're all frustrated and they say, you know, oh, I blew an audition today.

I'm so mad. I really wanted that job. I just, I just hated that it didn't go well. And I really worked hard. And I'll say, you worked hard. How hard did you work? And they'll say, no, no, Arnold, I really worked on this one. I mean, I'm telling you, I put in hours. Every second I had, I was working on this material. And I said, okay, but if you add up all those seconds, what would you say it comes to? An hour, 10 hours, 20 hours, five hours, two hours? Like how much time total? And they'll say, no, a lot. I mean, I've worked a lot on it. I'm telling you, I put in at least like two, two and a half hours on this. And I'll smile and I'll say, yeah. Okay. My friend, Michael Mastro puts in 35 to 40 hours on everything he does and he books every job he goes out for. So if you're interested in getting in the realm of being a player here, you need to bring more to the table.

[1:18:18] Kevin David Thomas: Love that.

[1:18:30] Arnold J. Mungioli: And then Arnold, last question for you, which is what is it that you know now that you wished you had known when you first started out in this profession?

[1:18:35] Arnold J. Mungioli: You know, that's a tricky question for me because I'm, I'm such a student of life and I have such an appetite and it's, I mean, such an appetite for learning. I want to learn everything. I mean, during the pandemic, I set up Grateful Ready Open Willing and I was doing things technologically that are way beyond my capability and sometimes failing miserably. It'd be like, okay, I'm, I'm on my phone and I think you can see my nose, but I can't get my computer to work. But we're here with the actors to talk about, you know, and, and just, and learning it, you know, and I took a website class to, to update my website, which I I'm guessing you've been to because you know my background and I'm guessing.

[1:19:51] Kevin David Thomas: It's great.

[1:19:52] Arnold J. Mungioli: It was a good, because I've been meaning to do that. It's a fantastic website. So kind. It's HTML, which is a technology not even used anymore. It's so archaic, but, and my brother-in-law is an IT person now retired. Who's when he built that for me, as one young actor said to me, you need help with your website. It looks like it's from the last century. And I said, well, it is from the last century, as a matter of fact, but you know, it was pretty cutting edge then. But you know, I thought, let me take a class and learn how to build a website so that I can upgrade my online image. If people can't see past the technology to all the shows I've done. And I learned a lot and I have half a website at this point, because then we got busy again.

Then suddenly there were zoom readings, then online things. And I didn't have enough time or interest to continue in that aspect of it. I do hope I'll get it done at some point, maybe in the next six months, but, but the thing is, it's about the learning of it. It's not about the result. It's about, I now know things when I go to people's websites and when I do things and when I get tickets for things that I know things about how things work in an area I never knew before. And that's, that's the thing that's so essential is to just keep learning.

[1:20:26] Arnold J. Mungioli: And, you know, actors are like that, too, you know, they come into the audition room, and they kind of got this, they know it, they've played this role before, or they've done something like it, or, oh, they're great auditioners or whatever. And when you don't have that essential, judgment free beginners mindset, it, the work is so much less fulfilling, creative, rewarding, it's, it's got to be judgment free, you have to allow it to say, okay, you know, yeah, I am not a technology person, who cares? I'm a human being, I have a mind, I have a heart, I can learn, let me try learning this and see what it's like. And guess what? Oh, big surprise, it's imperfect. And the same thing with the actors, you know, if you come in in that beginner's mindset of, I have never read these lines or sung this song or danced this dance or whatever in front of these people in this way, what, what if I were completely open to everything that, that is possible here, and with a beginner's mindset, just learned about it by doing it, and showed up in a way that was completely prepared, that that actually gave that opportunity, wow, that works really well.

[1:21:37] Kevin David Thomas: And so I'm, I'm so like that, that when you say that, the stuff I wish I knew, the answer to that question is, I haven't learned it yet.

[1:21:48] Kevin David Thomas: Love that, that I love, that is a great answer. Arnold, I cannot tell you how much we appreciate you spending your, your time with us today. Your students are very lucky to have you. And all the actors in New York who have had the pleasure of meeting you are even, even more lucky, because it's nice to know there's someone in their corner as passionate as you are. So thank you so much for joining us. Maybe one day, Kevin, you and I can audit Arnold's class. We can, we can look like millennials and sneak in. Talk to you all next time. Bye-bye. Yay!