This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, I'm Robert W. Schneider.

[0:02] Kevin David Thomas: And I'm Kevin David Thomas.

[0:03] Robert W. Schneider: And this is Behind the Curtain: Broadway's Living Legends.

[0:07] Kevin David Thomas: Don't forget to follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Broadway Curtain.

[0:10] Robert W. Schneider: And make sure to join our Facebook page at Behind the Curtain: Broadway's Living Legends.

[0:15] Kevin David Thomas: Our guest this week is the definition of a legend. Not only was he an original cast member of the original Broadway Company of Oklahoma!, he also appeared in the original companies of Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, Can-Can, and Me and Juliet.

[0:30] Robert W. Schneider: His years of hard work and incredible talent were rewarded in 1973 with the Tony Award for his hysterical performance as Madame Lucy in Irene. And at 93 years young, he shows no signs of slowing down. To tell us what it was like to work with such legends as Rodgers and Hammerstein, Cole Porter, and Sir John Gielgood, here joining us via telephone from his New York City apartment is GEORGE S. Irving.

[0:58] GEORGE S. IRVING: You know, when you picked up, I wanted to ask you, is this David Horowitz, the famous actor?

[1:09] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you so much for joining us today. We're so happy to have you.

[1:16] GEORGE S. IRVING: Well, it's a pleasure to do it.

[1:18] Robert W. Schneider: So let me ask you, it's myself and our co-host Kevin David Thomas. Um, first question I want to ask you is how did you get started in musical theater? Was it something that was in your family, or was it something that you acquired on your own?

[1:32] GEORGE S. IRVING: No, I discovered when I was about ten years old that I could sing. And I used to sing in the synagogue choir. And I was the soprano soloist. I could sing the bell song from Lakmé. Oh my gosh. So I sang from a very early age on. After high school, I got a scholarship to a dramatic school in Boston.

[2:13] GEORGE S. IRVING: The war had just started, and this school needed boys who were tall with deep voices.

[2:28] Kevin David Thomas: And you fit the bill.

[2:30] GEORGE S. IRVING: And I stayed for a year. This was in Boston. Did you grow up in Boston?

[2:37] GEORGE S. IRVING: No, Springfield, Massachusetts. In Boston, this was a school that was right behind the Gardner Museum and next door to the Boston Latin School.

[2:52] Kevin David Thomas: Very nice location.

[2:54] GEORGE S. IRVING: And after a year of that, I figured I'm ready for the big time.

[3:04] Kevin David Thomas: Did they train you in singing and acting and everything, or was it just singing?

[3:11] GEORGE S. IRVING: At school, we did Gilbert and Sullivan.

[3:15] Kevin David Thomas: Were you able to see a lot of theater in Springfield and Boston?

[3:19] GEORGE S. IRVING: No, I didn't have any money. No, I went to see Blossom Time.

[3:33] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, yes. The Romberg musical.

[3:36] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, any memories of that?

[3:38] GEORGE S. IRVING: At the Shubert Theater. It was very nice, except I made the mistake of buying a container of the Schubert Orange Juice, which laid me up for a couple of days.

[4:00] Kevin David Thomas: I'm happy you survived that. Do you remember what your first professional show was after school?

[4:09] GEORGE S. IRVING: Well, yeah. I auditioned for the Schuberts for a job in the chorus of a touring company of The Student Prince. Oh my, this was 1941. I remember because we were playing Washington when Pearl Harbor was attacked.

[4:37] Kevin David Thomas: Oh wow.

[4:39] GEORGE S. IRVING: So we persisted and had a long tour.

[4:46] Kevin David Thomas: Isn't it true that the chief naval officer was at the performance of The Student Prince?

[4:52] GEORGE S. IRVING: His name was Harold Stark. I guess they didn't have cell phones in those days.

[5:01] Kevin David Thomas: What a great story though. Wow. And then did you go into the army immediately following the attack on Pearl Harbor?

[5:09] GEORGE S. IRVING: No, I wasn't drafted right away, and I certainly wasn't going to volunteer. In the summer of '42, I got a job in the chorus and playing small parts at the St. Louis Municipal Opera. That was a good job. We did a Gershwin musical called The Song of the Flame, a Russian musical he made.

[5:36] GEORGE S. IRVING: When did Oklahoma! come into your life?

[5:55] GEORGE S. IRVING: Well, we did eight shows that summer, one a week, and the closing show was Show Boat, and we had Norma Terris in the lead.

[6:13] Kevin David Thomas: Oh wow, she was the original girl and she was wonderful.

[6:15] GEORGE S. IRVING: I remember at a dress rehearsal it was frantic; she was running around, and I remember her boob popped out of her dress. Well, we were all thrilled to death. Who wouldn't be? Again, some things never change. But she was quite wonderful.

[6:51] GEORGE S. IRVING: As a matter of fact, about fifty years later, I was playing Captain Andy in Show Boat in Florida, and she was living there. I think it was the fiftieth anniversary of the opening at the Ziegfeld Theater.

[7:11] Kevin David Thomas: Wow, and she was in the audience.

[7:13] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh my goodness. And after the show, I introduced her from the stage, and our Ravanal took a big mess of roses off the stage out into the house and gave it to her.

[7:36] Kevin David Thomas: Wow. And so you were doing Show Boat at the Muni, and then how did Oklahoma! come in?

[7:46] GEORGE S. IRVING: Well, it was a dress rehearsal. Dress rehearsals were done in the daytime, and the guy who was playing Old Man River lost his voice, so an actor named John Tyres, who played the handsomest leading man in the West, moved to that part and to John's part. And just by fluke, Oscar Hammerstein was there, and he took the rehearsal, and so I got to know him a little.

[7:46] GEORGE S. IRVING: Later on, when they were creating Oklahoma!, I sent him a letter, and he said, "Come and audition," and I did, and I got into the chorus.

[8:52] Kevin David Thomas: Incredible. Do you remember what you used to sing for auditions?

[8:56] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah. For that audition, I sang from Music in the Air, one of his shows.

[9:05] Kevin David Thomas: Uh-huh.

[9:06] GEORGE S. IRVING: I sang, "I've told every little star just how sweet I think you are."

[9:16] Kevin David Thomas: Well, I haven't told you.

[9:22] GEORGE S. IRVING: I just happened to know the song.

[9:25] Kevin David Thomas: Oh my gosh.

[9:26] GEORGE S. IRVING: I wasn't trying to romance him already.

[9:30] Kevin David Thomas: But you did. You did, that's great.

[9:33] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh my god. But I got hired.

[9:34] Kevin David Thomas: Oh wow. And do you remember where Oklahoma! tried out?

[9:40] GEORGE S. IRVING: We opened in New Haven.

[9:43] Kevin David Thomas: I was gonna say, did the show change a lot from the rehearsal process to when it eventually got to Broadway?

[9:53] GEORGE S. IRVING: They dropped a number, "Boys and Girls Like You and Me." They dropped that. That was nice because a girl ran out on stage, and I ran after her and grabbed her and kissed her. And Ruben Mamoulian didn't like the way I did it, so he showed me how to properly embrace a girl. Mamoulian taught me.

[10:29] Kevin David Thomas: You owe him a bouquet of flowers as well.

[10:35] GEORGE S. IRVING: The first day of rehearsal at the Guild Theater, it was an empty stage, just the radiators hung on the back wall of the stage. And he started the rehearsal and he said, "Look how like a temple this stage where we begin our work," and he got very rhapsodic.

[11:22] Kevin David Thomas: What made him such a good director?

[11:26] GEORGE S. IRVING: He knew what he wanted. He set a scene, and that was it.

[11:34] Kevin David Thomas: That helped.

[11:37] GEORGE S. IRVING: Agnes sort of floundered around.

[11:37] Kevin David Thomas: Was that her first big job, correct?

[11:51] GEORGE S. IRVING: First big Broadway job.

[11:51] Kevin David Thomas: And what was it like working with her?

[11:56] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, she was nice. I liked her. I was not a dancer, so that helped. She liked young boys, so that was okay.

[12:09] Kevin David Thomas: Did you guys know that you had such a big hit on your hands?

[12:14] GEORGE S. IRVING: I didn't know. I was twenty years old. I'd hardly ever gone to the theater. I had no money.

[12:24] GEORGE S. IRVING: But I knew good actors when I saw them. Alfred and the man who played Judd, they gave drama classes backstage.

[12:45] Kevin David Thomas: Wow.

[12:46] GEORGE S. IRVING: They were very serious guys.

[12:48] Kevin David Thomas: What did you learn from them in terms of acting? Did they teach anything, or was there anything that you picked up that you took with you from then on?

[12:55] GEORGE S. IRVING: No, just the experience of being with them, yeah. I knew what they knew. I just hadn't done it yet.

[13:05] Kevin David Thomas: Got it. What a great way of putting it. And then how long were you with Oklahoma! for?

[13:11] GEORGE S. IRVING: Not very long. We opened, I think, in March of '43, and I got my draft notice.

[13:27] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, I gave my notice to the show, and they hired another guy.

[13:36] GEORGE S. IRVING: Wow. And then the draft board said, "We're full up, we don't need you this month." Oh, so I went up the street where Lady in the Dark was playing and with Grady Lawrence and I knew they needed a chorus boy there. So I auditioned for Moss Hart and Maurice of Bravenel and they hired me. And they built these gorgeous costumes for me. I rehearsed for a week. And the night I went in, the damn draft board called. Yeah, we're ready for you. Oh my gosh. And I said, "Listen, I cannot do that to these people. They just put me in the show. You gotta give me a month or so." And they did. Wow. That's crazy. Um, so when you got to go on stage though with Gertrude Lawrence? What was that like? What was it like working with her?

So many newer actors don't really remember her. She was a very quiet woman, didn't talk much. Um, we had a revolve in that show and it was one of the first revolves on Broadway. There's this great big round thing on an axle sitting on the stage. And when they would be playing a scene in front of it, they would put a drop covering half of the revolve, play the scene in front, and set up the next scene in back on the revolve. Well, when she was playing in front, downstage of the revolve, if you walked around upstage behind where they were setting up, it wiggled. It, the goddamn thing was on its axle and it wiggled. And that infuriated her. I mean, people had to go on tiptoe back there and be sure not to jiggle the thing because it would distract her. It was probably distracting too. Yeah, she was nice to watch. She was a good actress. Oh yeah. Not much of a singer, but a good actress.

[16:30] Kevin David Thomas: And then you went off to serve in, was it the army or the Navy or Marines?

[16:35] GEORGE S. IRVING: The army, yeah. I was in the Army.

[16:37] Kevin David Thomas: And how long were you in the army for?

[16:42] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, I don't know, about almost three years.

[16:47] Kevin David Thomas: Oh wow. Oh, that's a long time. You were there for quite some time. Um, then you came back and you came back to New York City?

[16:55] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yes. It's interesting. Uh, I should have been sent to Europe because I went to a very progressive high school and I had French, German, and Italian classes. Wow. Springfield was a wonderful city then. Yeah. And so naturally I should have been sent to Europe. Uh, but it so happened that at Fort Dix where I was, that was the replacement depot. I sat around there for several weeks and then one day everybody on my street of tents was herded into a big thing like almost an airplane hangar with a hundred desks and a lieutenant behind each desk. Mm-hmm. And in turn we were called down to a lieutenant to be questioned, examined, and my lieutenant, just by a fluke, was the husband of Celeste Holm.

[18:29] Kevin David Thomas: What? From Oklahoma?

[18:30] GEORGE S. IRVING: No way! He used to come up and visit his wife.

[18:38] Kevin David Thomas: What are the odds of that happening?

[18:41] GEORGE S. IRVING: I mean, I should have been in the trenches in Europe. Holy crap. You know, with a sergeant saying, "Hey GEORGE, you get down there at that farmhouse, ask them if they seen any krauts." Yeah. Well, I could just imagine knocking on the door and boom, a pistol in my face.

[19:07] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah. No, no, it could have gone another direction for either.

[19:08] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh yeah. Um, so instead he sent me to a special service company that was training in the middle of Illinois and after a year we were sent to Brooklyn, got on a ship, went down the coast, and we were wearing winter clothes so I thought we were gonna make a left and go to England, but no, we kept going down around Florida. I thought, well, we're going to North Africa. Not a chance. We kept going through the Panama Canal and out to the Pacific. And um, we made a stop at New Caledonia for water. We were on that fussy ocean for a month, zigzagging 'cause we had no escort and there were subs around. Yeah. But we made it to Guadalcanal and that's where they unloaded me and from Guadalcanal we went up to Bougainville, Munda, Luzon, and then after they dropped the bomb we were occupation troops in Seoul, Korea. Wow. I never fired a rifle in anger and uh, never, well, the first night in Bougainville, a Japanese bomber came over. I think it was the last one they had.

[21:13] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[21:13] GEORGE S. IRVING: And he dropped them out. Well, first he dropped a flare, which is terrifying. The whole island turns to daylight. Wow. And they dropped his bomb and he hit our beer dump.

[21:30] Kevin David Thomas: Oh.

[21:31] GEORGE S. IRVING: So the whole island, yeah. The whole island smelled like a brewery. Well, you couldn't drink any 'cause it was gone.

[21:40] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[21:41] GEORGE S. IRVING: And then he flew off and uh, wow. Do you remember the first show you did when you came back from the army?

[21:52] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah, it was a review called Call Me Mr. But anyway, did you prefer doing shows like that where it was sketches and songs, or did you like, you know, something along the lines of an Oklahoma where you played one character throughout? Did you have a preference?

[22:06] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, I liked reviews. It was lots of sketches, lots of songs. On with the pants and off with the pants.

[22:26] Kevin David Thomas: That was later.

[22:27] GEORGE S. IRVING: That was later. That was the Betty. That was with Betty Davis. And then what was along Fifth Avenue?

[22:35] Kevin David Thomas: That was a review.

[22:38] GEORGE S. IRVING: A man named Arthur Lester produced that. Uh, he, I don't know where he came from, but he spoke French all the time. He and his cohort and Arthur used to sit on the chair with a quart of milk on the floor next to him.

[23:03] Kevin David Thomas: And he was always sucking on that milk bottle.

[23:09] GEORGE S. IRVING: And uh, an ulcer.

[23:13] Kevin David Thomas: Oh.

[23:14] GEORGE S. IRVING: Milk is the only remedy for ulcers. Yeah, Lehman Engel conducted.

[23:23] Kevin David Thomas: Um, did you get to know him quite well?

[23:26] GEORGE S. IRVING: Very well. I dressed with him.

[23:29] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, you guys shared a dressing room together.

[23:31] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah, three of us. The uh, Lehman and uh, Harry Clark and myself. Now, this along Fifth Avenue cast, it's Nancy Walker and Jackie Gleason. This is a very funny, funny group of people. Do you have any memories of working with either Jackie Gleason or Nancy Walker?

[24:01] GEORGE S. IRVING: Unpleasant. He was a little insufferable. Uh, I didn't have much to do with him, but I didn't like him.

[24:14] Kevin David Thomas: I hear that. I don't think you're the only one that has that opinion. And what about Nancy Walker?

[24:20] GEORGE S. IRVING: Nancy was okay.

[24:23] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, they both went off into television and seemed to find their success there.

[24:28] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yes. Um, gentlemen prefer blondes. No, I had gone to Europe for a few months. Uh, doing these two little operas of Giancarlo Manotti.

[24:45] Kevin David Thomas: Oh yeah. Wonderful, wonderful pieces.

[24:50] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah. And did you work with Manotti?

[24:54] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh yeah. Oh, lovely man. Um, we played London for I don't know, a month and a half and we were gonna come back home, but they suddenly got a gig in Paris.

[25:00] Kevin David Thomas: Oh wow, so there happened to be a French translation in the score.

[25:25] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh wow, so we learned it in French and uh, Sam Barber came over. He was uh, John Carlo's pal.

[25:39] Kevin David Thomas: That's right.

[25:40] GEORGE S. IRVING: And uh, Sam was fluent in French and he coached us and we opened in Paris with great reviews.

[25:51] Kevin David Thomas: Oh yeah. Well, and you did a lot of the operas that, in my opinion, are more, uh, you know, theatrically inclined, you know, with the storytelling and the acting, like I would love to hear about Regina, what that was like, you know, working with Mark Blitzstein.

[26:05] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, that was wonderful. Really, uh, that's one of my favorite operas, period. Uh, yeah. I don't know why it's not in the repertoire.

[26:14] Kevin David Thomas: I could not agree more with you. It is so perfectly written to me. What was that experience like and how did that come about?

[26:22] GEORGE S. IRVING: Uh, I just auditioned for it, I don't know how it came about. Uh, well, I auditioned for uh, Herman, uh, the director.

[26:41] GEORGE S. IRVING: Herman, god damn it. That's okay, we'll look it up. Great man. Uh, well, and he liked me. He liked my acting. And I got hired, and uh, he had Carc Lomish at uh City Opera and he rehearsed the thing as a play for two weeks.

[27:08] Robert W. Schneider: What that's oh that's brilliant.

[27:11] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, that's incredible.

[27:12] GEORGE S. IRVING: It was great.

[27:14] Robert W. Schneider: Well, you can you can tell because in the recording, I mean the acting is superb. I mean, Brenda Lewis and you and everyone is just uh it's more than just pretty singing, and it is fantastic singing, but it's definitely acted.

[27:28] Robert W. Schneider: And GEORGE, had you seen the little foxes when it first had come out?

[27:34] GEORGE S. IRVING: I saw the movie.

[27:34] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah.

[27:35] Robert W. Schneider: You saw the movie, yeah. What do you do you enjoy that sort of rehearsal process where you know you work on the text first and then you can you can get into all the music?

[27:47] GEORGE S. IRVING: Absolutely. Yeah, it was just wonderful. Then we then Mark came and we put the music to it, and Mark played all the rehearsals.

[27:57] Robert W. Schneider: Did he?

[27:57] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, he was our rehearsal pianist.

[28:02] Robert W. Schneider: Oh my goodness.

[28:03] GEORGE S. IRVING: And he made little changes. Not much.

[28:08] Robert W. Schneider: And uh is it true that you recorded the show after a performance?

[28:14] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, yeah. We went to a studio someplace on the east side and uh and did it.

[28:24] GEORGE S. IRVING: I can't remember whether we had the band there.

[28:30] GEORGE S. IRVING: Um can. Can oh yeah. I was uh I was in something and uh and I left that to company, I wonder.

[28:54] GEORGE S. IRVING: I guess so.

[28:55] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah. And then uh they came and uh asked me to to replace Hans Conried.

[29:04] Robert W. Schneider: Oh wow.

[29:05] GEORGE S. IRVING: Such a funny actor. Such a funny actor. I enjoyed that.

[29:10] Robert W. Schneider: Do you remember who was in the cast with you?

[29:14] GEORGE S. IRVING: A French woman named Lilo.

[29:18] GEORGE S. IRVING: Lilo was in it with you. And uh and uh Gwen Verden.

[29:26] Robert W. Schneider: Oh yes. Oh my gosh. What I was just gonna ask you, what was that like to watch her do that every night?

[29:35] GEORGE S. IRVING: She she was in the theater six o'clock every night, down on the stage.

[29:42] GEORGE S. IRVING: Wow. We called her Dusty Buttocks. She had she had her jeans on.

[29:52] GEORGE S. IRVING: And um she was down there rehearsing by by herself uh uh she was uh uh a d a dancer from a choreographer in Hollywood, what the hell?

[30:12] GEORGE S. IRVING: Is it Jack Cole?

[30:14] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[30:14] GEORGE S. IRVING: Jack Cole, of course, yeah. He was a Jack Cole dancer. I remember we had a number together where we sang verses at each other yelling.

[30:31] GEORGE S. IRVING: And and uh when it came to her verse, she stomped her foot and turned away and sang it. Well one night she stomped on my foot and I thought I was gonna pass out.

[30:48] GEORGE S. IRVING: She had legs like oak trees. They were beautiful, but oh my god. Strong. Strength. Strength.

[31:01] Robert W. Schneider: Oh well. Um did you have any run ins with Cole Porter at that time?

[31:07] GEORGE S. IRVING: I never met him.

[31:07] Robert W. Schneider: You never met him. Great show. And speaking of great shows, me and Juliet, which is one of my favorites that I wish would come back more often. 'Cause I think it's got such a marvelous score. Do you have any memories of working on me and Juliet?

[31:25] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh GEORGE Abbott was the director of it, wasn't he?

[31:28] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah.

[31:29] GEORGE S. IRVING: I Bill Hayes. Remember him?

[31:36] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah. Great, great. Bill Hayes went to bat for me in that show. They were all set to they were hiring some comic to play the conductor. And Bill said, no, you need a musician. And he convinced them to audition me.

[32:01] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh. And I had to conduct a little something. So and I got it.

[32:09] Robert W. Schneider: Yes. How fun. Do you do you remember what it was like working with Rogers and Hammerstein on this?

[32:20] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh sure. Um. They w they wrote new stuff, changed stuff. They were very fasting. Matter of fact, the fastest was IRVING Berlin. My wife worked with him. And she said he was amazing. He would do these wonderful numbers overnight. Amazing.

[32:59] GEORGE S. IRVING: I once heard that I don't know if this is true, but that he wrote there's no business like show business in a taxi cab on his way to rehearsal.

[33:08] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[33:10] GEORGE S. IRVING: That's amazing. Did you guys think me and Juliet was going to be a big success?

[33:14] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yes. Yeah, we loved the show. Uh I don't know. I forget how long we ran. We had a respectable run, I think.

[33:26] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah. It's a beautiful score. I wish that, you know, there'd be a revival of it somewhere, a smaller theater company would pick it up. I think it's gorgeous.

[33:35] GEORGE S. IRVING: It ran about a year or so.

[33:37] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. That's respectable, yeah. You're right. And then uh your wife, an incredibly, incredibly talented actress. How did you two meet each other?

[33:47] GEORGE S. IRVING: In Call Me Mr.

[33:49] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh. She was the ballerina. A showman. A show romance. Yeah. Yeah. It happened after a year.

[34:00] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, we marry each other, yeah.

[34:02] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, wow. Did was it was it love at first sight? Were you trying to play hard to get?

[34:08] GEORGE S. IRVING: No. We were just otherwise engaged.

[34:15] Robert W. Schneider: That's w that's wonderful. She's so talented.

[34:19] GEORGE S. IRVING: So talented. Do you remember what she worked with IRVING Berlin on?

[34:24] GEORGE S. IRVING: Miss Liberty.

[34:25] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, Miss Liberty.

[34:26] GEORGE S. IRVING: Miss Liberty. Very, very cool. Um, and so then Oh, yeah, go ahead.

[34:32] GEORGE S. IRVING: She danced with Ralph Lynn.

[34:35] Robert W. Schneider: Oh.

[34:36] GEORGE S. IRVING: Bambi's brother.

[34:38] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. Oh, right. Bambi is alive, by the way.

[34:41] GEORGE S. IRVING: Who is it?

[34:43] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. She and I are the only uh uh relics of that show. She's in Florida, married to a man named De Jesus.

[34:53] GEORGE S. IRVING: De Jesus?

[35:00] GEORGE S. IRVING: De Jesus.

[35:02] Robert W. Schneider: Wow.

[35:04] GEORGE S. IRVING: So she married Jesus.

[35:06] Robert W. Schneider: Basically.

[35:06] GEORGE S. IRVING: She married. She did pretty well for herself. Um. And then after me and Juliet closes, you do a lot of live television, it seems.

[35:19] GEORGE S. IRVING: A lot of producer showcase and and stuff like that. Is that correct?

[35:25] GEORGE S. IRVING: Uh can't remember now.

[35:33] Robert W. Schneider: That's that's okay. But you also do a lot of voiceover work in addition to your the in addition to your theater work. Do you enjoy doing that? Is that is that fulfilling and exciting?

[35:44] GEORGE S. IRVING: Sure. It was boring, but lucrative. And I'm living on the pension now.

[35:51] Robert W. Schneider: Good. As well as you should. You gave so much joy to so many people. You deserve it and still do. Um, I did a cock me thing where I was a character called the Heat Miser.

[36:05] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah.

[36:05] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yes. And a year with no Santa Claus.

[36:07] GEORGE S. IRVING: A year with no Santa Claus. And I'm famous for that.

[36:12] Robert W. Schneider: You are. I watch it every year, GEORGE.

[36:14] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, yeah, everyone watches it. And people send me pictures of that to autograph.

[36:21] Robert W. Schneider: Oh my goodness.

[36:22] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh really? You could play Hamlet every night for 20 years. Nobody knows you. But you do a silly thing like that.

[36:32] Robert W. Schneider: No, it's true. Alec Guinness, the famous actor, used to lament that everyone only knew him from his Star Wars movies, but not from his Shakespeare.

[36:40] GEORGE S. IRVING: It's very similar. Yeah. You know.

[36:44] GEORGE S. IRVING: Um Irma LaDuce.

[36:48] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, yeah. What was your experiences like working on Irma La Deuce?

[36:54] GEORGE S. IRVING: She had a piece of business where Fred Gwynn and I were on either side of her, and she reached around and slapped each of us on the cheek. And when a dancer slaps you, you are slapped. And Fred had a big jaw or something that really caught that the blue. And he finally said, I can't do it. He went to the director. So she punched us in the belly thereafter.

[37:36] Robert W. Schneider: And now the director was the famous Peter Brook, correct?

[37:41] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yes. Lovely man. W what made it what makes him such a good director for those of us who have never been in the rehearsal room with him?

[37:49] GEORGE S. IRVING: He got everything just right. He knew just he knew just what to do.

[37:57] Robert W. Schneider: Some directors have got it. With any uh directors that you you you just didn't feel that you you got along with, and and how did you guys get out of that? Those issues.

[38:09] GEORGE S. IRVING: Well, the director of uh Alfie wasn't crazy about me. And he made a few derogatory remarks like we may have to replace you.

[38:27] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, come on.

[38:29] GEORGE S. IRVING: But I got out of that. That's insecurity.

[38:32] GEORGE S. IRVING: I I I played the uh oh. The awful Man. Who gets rid of her baby?

[38:47] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, geez. Mr. Smith. The abortion.

[38:49] Robert W. Schneider: The abortionist.

[38:52] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, wow. Was that one of your first plays, you know, without music?

[38:57] GEORGE S. IRVING: I think you had done one other one on Broadway, but uh did you make a conscious transition to not do shows, but just to do plays instead?

[39:05] GEORGE S. IRVING: I I took whatever I could get.

[39:10] Robert W. Schneider: That's the right answer. That sounds like an actor to me.

[39:12] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah, that's right. Um I was raising two kids and the rent to pay.

[39:18] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, yeah. Now, do you you worked with Vivian Lee? And I think her only musical, is that right?

[39:25] GEORGE S. IRVING: Her only musical? Yes, yeah.

[39:27] GEORGE S. IRVING: And I think it was a tough time for her, too, I believe.

[39:32] GEORGE S. IRVING: Well, it was she was not in the best of health.

[39:38] Robert W. Schneider: Um and what part did you play in in Tovarage?

[39:43] GEORGE S. IRVING: The husband.

[39:44] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, her husb her husband.

[39:46] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah.

[39:47] Robert W. Schneider: Wow. And what's it like sharing the stage with uh someone like Vivian Lee? This this great icon that most people know from you know Gone with the Wind and her film work.

[39:57] GEORGE S. IRVING: Uh she was fine. She was very professional, of course. She was still bitter about Olivier.

[40:16] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, really?

[40:17] GEORGE S. IRVING: She had a big picture of him in her dressing room next to her uh Oscar.

[40:27] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh. And always referred to Lady Olivier as that bitch.

[40:37] GEORGE S. IRVING: And she kept her Oscar in her dressing room, which I think is also pretty amazing. Now, the 70s were really good for you. I have to ask you. An evening with Richard Nixon, which was done in 1972, so we didn't even have the Watergate scandal yet, is that correct?

[40:57] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah.

[40:57] Robert W. Schneider: What was it like performing a one-man show about the current president?

[41:03] GEORGE S. IRVING: It wasn't one man.

[41:05] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, I'm so sorry.

[41:07] GEORGE S. IRVING: I'm so sorry, I apologize, but you doing a majority of, I mean you carrying the show.

[41:12] GEORGE S. IRVING: My apologies. Yeah, I never stopped. Uh, it was wonderful to do.

[41:19] Robert W. Schneider: How was audience reaction?

[41:22] GEORGE S. IRVING: What?

[41:23] Robert W. Schneider: How did the audience react? This is what this was you playing their current president.

[41:28] GEORGE S. IRVING: Well, we didn't last that long.

[41:34] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah. Uh, but I remember after that show. I was in Washington with a tryout of, uh, uh, Irene?

[41:53] GEORGE S. IRVING: Irene. And, uh, Mrs. Nixon and the girls came to see it one afternoon.

[42:02] GEORGE S. IRVING: And, uh, when I first got in the show, we had Gilgood directing.

[42:10] GEORGE S. IRVING: And, uh, I came late to the show.

[42:13] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah, and, uh, when I came toward it, he said, uh, now you know the part is, uh, uh, an extravagant dress designer, so you may be as extravagant as you like, dear boy. So he gave you permission to be as extravagant as you wanted?

[42:13] Robert W. Schneider: So Gilgood was directing it originally?

[42:13] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yes, and how extravagant as you did? I gave him a wild audition and, uh, he hired me.

[42:13] Robert W. Schneider: Wow, and you played Madam Lucy?

[42:13] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah, and you won a Tony Award for playing Madame Lucy?

[42:13] Robert W. Schneider: Yes, how wonderful.

[42:13] GEORGE S. IRVING: How wonderful. Did you, um, did you enjoy the rehearsal process of putting up Irene?

[42:13] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh yes.

[42:13] Robert W. Schneider: And what's it like to be directed by Sir John Gilgood?

[42:13] GEORGE S. IRVING: Well, I always, everybody called him Sir John and he said, call me John, call me John, but nobody could. You have to call him Sir John.

[42:13] Robert W. Schneider: What made him such a good director?

[43:36] GEORGE S. IRVING: He wasn't.

[43:36] Robert W. Schneider: No?

[43:36] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah, that's, he wasn't at all. No, he didn't know how to do a big musical. Yeah, he was way over his head.

[43:47] GEORGE S. IRVING: He used to leave his script on the stage at night when he went home.

[43:47] Robert W. Schneider: Whoops.

[43:54] GEORGE S. IRVING: And a lovely man. An old friend of mine is Jack Lee, who was the original music director on Jack. He would tell me a story that I think, uh, you had a tryout in Toronto, I believe.

[44:06] Robert W. Schneider: And is that where, uh, Gilgood left the show at some point when you were out of town still? Is that true?

[44:14] GEORGE S. IRVING: Uh, yes.

[44:17] GEORGE S. IRVING: And I feel like when we moved to, uh, Philadelphia, he was out and he was in the next hotel room to me.

[44:29] GEORGE S. IRVING: And I could hear his phone calls.

[44:32] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, well, I can't do anything with Debbie. I, uh, you know, I have a run of the play contract and I'm not leaving by myself, so, uh, he had a run of the play and they had to pay him for the whole run.

[44:51] Robert W. Schneider: Wow, which I thought was wonderful.

[44:55] GEORGE S. IRVING: He lucked out.

[44:56] GEORGE S. IRVING: And then, um, you know, you're so synonymous with the Butler song from So Long 174th Street.

[45:05] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, how did that come about, the show?

[45:10] GEORGE S. IRVING: Uh, I was, I was in Hollywood, uh, doing a series which failed and we did around five or six, and, uh, somebody called me.

[45:32] GEORGE S. IRVING: I, who the hell was it?

[45:35] GEORGE S. IRVING: I don't know. And they sent me the music.

[45:39] GEORGE S. IRVING: And they sort of wanted me.

[45:43] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[45:44] GEORGE S. IRVING: It was to learn.

[45:48] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, but it's so funny.

[45:49] Robert W. Schneider: Did the song change a lot from the, uh, what you got originally?

[45:55] GEORGE S. IRVING: No, that was it.

[45:56] GEORGE S. IRVING: That's a funny song.

[45:58] GEORGE S. IRVING: He's a great man. What's his name?

[46:00] GEORGE S. IRVING: Stan Daniels.

[46:02] GEORGE S. IRVING: Stan, yeah.

[46:04] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah, yeah. Who I don't think a great musical theater writer who didn't actually do a lot of musicals, I think after that.

[46:12] GEORGE S. IRVING: No, he worked for the Mary Tyler Moore origin.

[46:16] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah, he was a TV guy. He wrote Taxi.

[46:20] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[46:21] GEORGE S. IRVING: Right. Um, you know, we just had Lonnie Ackerman, uh, interviewed, who was your co-star.

[46:28] Robert W. Schneider: You know, why do you think the show didn't last as long as it should have?

[46:33] GEORGE S. IRVING: Because it's a marvelous, marvelous show.

[46:37] GEORGE S. IRVING: I don't know.

[46:39] GEORGE S. IRVING: We were uptown.

[46:45] GEORGE S. IRVING: And Dead Lincoln sent her, really.

[46:47] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, the Harkness Theater.

[46:49] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, you were uptown.

[46:50] GEORGE S. IRVING: Uptown, uptown.

[46:52] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[46:52] GEORGE S. IRVING: That's what Lonnie said too.

[46:54] GEORGE S. IRVING: She said she thought it was because the location of the theater didn't help her.

[46:57] GEORGE S. IRVING: And now they did this at the York recently, and you were in that as well, correct?

[47:02] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah.

[47:02] GEORGE S. IRVING: Enter laughing.

[47:03] Robert W. Schneider: So it's a role that you love coming back to.

[47:06] Robert W. Schneider: What makes this role so much fun for you? What do you enjoy about it?

[47:10] GEORGE S. IRVING: It's funny.

[47:12] GEORGE S. IRVING: You know what? That's the best answer.

[47:14] GEORGE S. IRVING: That's it.

[47:15] GEORGE S. IRVING: It's witty.

[47:18] GEORGE S. IRVING: It's witty, and it's a charming piece.

[47:23] GEORGE S. IRVING: And then working with Liv Ullmann on I Remember Mama.

[47:29] Robert W. Schneider: Oh.

[47:31] Robert W. Schneider: Tell us a little bit of that and Richard Rodgers, uh, one of Richard Rodgers, I think last scores for the theater, if not the last score for the theater.

[47:39] GEORGE S. IRVING: What was that experience like?

[47:41] GEORGE S. IRVING: Uh, well, uh, Marty was the director originally.

[47:39] GEORGE S. IRVING: Marty, what's his name?

[47:59] GEORGE S. IRVING: Uh, uh, Charnin.

[48:00] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah.

[48:01] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yep.

[48:01] GEORGE S. IRVING: And he just started a little affair with Liv.

[48:06] Robert W. Schneider: Oh wow.

[48:07] GEORGE S. IRVING: And, uh, after rehearsal, they would open a bottle of champagne and not offer it around.

[48:19] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, in front of everybody?

[48:23] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah, in their corner.

[48:24] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah, yeah, but like at the theater.

[48:27] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah, uh, no, at the rehearsal hall.

[48:30] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh jeez, and rehearsals.

[48:33] GEORGE S. IRVING: At the end of the day.

[48:35] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yes, yes, yes.

[48:36] GEORGE S. IRVING: And, uh, she couldn't sing really.

[48:41] Robert W. Schneider: Yes.

[48:43] GEORGE S. IRVING: Uh, but she was a good actress and just a lovely girl.

[48:48] GEORGE S. IRVING: I just thought, uh, adored her.

[48:51] GEORGE S. IRVING: I had a, I had a death scene.

[48:55] GEORGE S. IRVING: Well, uh, I had a wonderful song, and, uh, and she leaning over me as I'm dying, looking at these incredible blue eyes.

[49:09] GEORGE S. IRVING: She was, she was something.

[49:12] Robert W. Schneider: Oh yeah.

[49:17] GEORGE S. IRVING: Um, you did a show called Copperfield at one point.

[49:22] GEORGE S. IRVING: Um, except it didn't really, uh, take off too well, but, um, do you know why?

[49:29] GEORGE S. IRVING: Like what that experience was like?

[49:29] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, I enjoyed it.

[49:41] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah.

[49:42] GEORGE S. IRVING: And it doesn't get better than that.

[49:44] GEORGE S. IRVING: Exactly.

[49:45] GEORGE S. IRVING: You would think it'd be a perfect subject matter.

[49:47] GEORGE S. IRVING: And I thought lovely.

[49:51] GEORGE S. IRVING: It just didn't work.

[49:54] GEORGE S. IRVING: It'd be, uh, after we opened, uh, it's customary when you're a flop for the big star to step forward and ask the audience if they enjoyed it, and would you please tell your friends and all that?

[50:15] Robert W. Schneider: That's right, to try to get the word out, try to, you know, get some support, of course.

[50:19] GEORGE S. IRVING: Well, it was, we had Lily and Gish and Lillian made the speech.

[50:26] GEORGE S. IRVING: It was a charming speech.

[50:29] GEORGE S. IRVING: And after she was finished in the wings, I said, Lily, and that was marvelous.

[50:37] GEORGE S. IRVING: If you were Jewish, I'd marry you.

[50:41] GEORGE S. IRVING: And she said with that sweet face, how do you know I'm not?

[50:52] Robert W. Schneider: That's great.

[50:53] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, she was delightful.

[50:56] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh man.

[50:56] GEORGE S. IRVING: I wish we got to see more of her on stage like that.

[51:01] Robert W. Schneider: You know, I'm intrigued by, uh, one of the plays you did, I think it was a play, uh, it was a series of four plays called Four on the Garden.

[51:12] GEORGE S. IRVING: And it was with Sid Caesar and once again Carol Channing and a young Tommy Lee Jones.

[51:17] GEORGE S. IRVING: Uh, was it a different play every night?

[51:20] GEORGE S. IRVING: Is that how it worked?

[51:21] GEORGE S. IRVING: Or was it, or were they small one-act plays?

[51:23] GEORGE S. IRVING: It was, it was four plays.

[51:25] GEORGE S. IRVING: Four little one acts, and you did them all within the same evening.

[51:29] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah.

[51:30] GEORGE S. IRVING: That must have, uh, and it took place like in an apartment, right, where it was each in a different floor or in a co-op, right?

[51:38] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah, I was in it.

[51:39] GEORGE S. IRVING: I had a walk-on part with Tommy Lee Jones.

[51:46] GEORGE S. IRVING: Tommy Lee Jones, very young Tommy Lee Jones.

[51:49] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[51:50] GEORGE S. IRVING: Well, and, and, and I believe—

[51:50] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, go ahead, sorry.

[51:56] GEORGE S. IRVING: I understudied Sid.

[51:59] GEORGE S. IRVING: Thank God I didn't have to go on.

[52:02] Robert W. Schneider: Uh, yeah, those are some shoes to fill, although I know you could fill them.

[52:06] Robert W. Schneider: Uh, it must have been pretty fun to watch him every single night, uh, clown around on stage.

[52:12] GEORGE S. IRVING: He was okay.

[52:13] GEORGE S. IRVING: Yeah.

[52:13] GEORGE S. IRVING: He was quite nice backstage.

[52:15] GEORGE S. IRVING: Oh, that's good.

[52:17] GEORGE S. IRVING: And, uh, he told me a story.

[52:21] GEORGE S. IRVING: He said, uh, he took his father to the symphony concert.

[52:28] GEORGE S. IRVING: This little old Jewish man.

[52:31] GEORGE S. IRVING: And after the concert, he said, Well, Pa, how did you like it?

[52:36] GEORGE S. IRVING: He said, Oh, that must be a very hard piece that they played.

[52:43] GEORGE S. IRVING: He said, Why do you say that?

[52:45] GEORGE S. IRVING: Well, it took so many men to play it.

[52:53] GEORGE S. IRVING: I like it.

[52:56] Robert W. Schneider: Oh my gosh.

[52:57] Robert W. Schneider: George, thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview and being our guest.

[53:02] GEORGE S. IRVING: I cannot even tell you how much we appreciate it.

[53:05] GEORGE S. IRVING: This has been so informative and so special for both of us and for our listeners.

[53:09] GEORGE S. IRVING: It really, we're just so thankful for your time.

[53:12] GEORGE S. IRVING: You're more than welcome.

[53:14] GEORGE S. IRVING: All the best to you.

[53:16] GEORGE S. IRVING: Bye.

[53:19] Robert W. Schneider: Tune in next week when our guest will be Artistic Director of City Center Encores, Jack Vertelly.