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[0:00] Kevin David Thomas: I dream the dream of days to come where sponsorship is high and money is forthcoming.

[0:07] Robert W. Schneider: That's beautiful, Kevin.

[0:08] Kevin David Thomas: I really added a voice onto that one too. I really was trying to go for something there.

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[0:18] Kevin David Thomas: Oh my gosh, the original cast recording of Angel.

[0:20] Robert W. Schneider: Like nobody has.

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[0:33] Robert W. Schneider: Reon.

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[0:36] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, Patreon.

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[0:38] Robert W. Schneider: Patreon.

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[0:42] Robert W. Schneider: And of course, we don't expect to give without receiving some great rewards.

[0:46] Kevin David Thomas: Such rewards include behind the scenes videos, shout-outs on future episodes or episodes, depending on what part of the country you're from, because I said episodes.

[0:55] Robert W. Schneider: And early access to some of our podcasts. Hell, for the right price, Kevin and I will come to your apartment and act out all of Agnes of God.

[1:03] Kevin David Thomas: So head over, friends, to P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com to help us out.

[1:09] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, I'm Robert W. Schneider.

[1:10] Kevin David Thomas: And I'm Kevin David Thomas.

[1:12] Robert W. Schneider: And this is Behind the Curtain Broadway's Living Legends.

[1:15] Kevin David Thomas: Don't forget to follow us on Twitter at Broadway Curtain and make sure to join our Facebook page at Behind the Curtain Broadway's Living Legends.

[1:22] Robert W. Schneider: And go ahead and follow us on Instagram at Broadway Curtain Podcast Plus.

[1:25] Kevin David Thomas: You can always listen to our podcasts on Broadway World and Stitcher.

[1:28] Robert W. Schneider: If I B D B is to be believed, today's guest has at least 98 Broadway credits.

[1:35] Kevin David Thomas: But I just want to say really quickly, he was kind enough to bring us his resume.

[1:39] Robert W. Schneider: And the resume is 24 pages long and is almost as thick as a phone book. It feels very heavy.

[1:44] Kevin David Thomas: So our guest today, my god, the credits are amazing. He is one of the most recognizable names in the theater community, and his brilliant artistry has led to receiving the Tony Award for his work on the revival of Chicago.

[1:57] Robert W. Schneider: As a lighting designer, his credits include, here we go, a couple on the 20th Century, Sweeney Todd, Chicago, Annie, Candide, Drowsy Chaperone, Sunning the Park with George, twice, and over 80 others, maybe 90, maybe 100, maybe 300. I feel like we might just go that way.

[2:16] Kevin David Thomas: To tell us what it was like to work with such legends as Tharon Musser, Hal Prince, and Stephen Sondheim, amongst many, many others, here is the man who owes everything to Sherry Zimmerman and her symbols, the Tony Award winner, KEN BILLINGTON.

[2:30] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, Kenny, you almost said.

[2:31] KEN BILLINGTON: I almost said Kenny. I got really friendly with you all of a sudden.

[2:35] Robert W. Schneider: Wait, who are the others?

[2:37] KEN BILLINGTON: Uh, Strowman.

[2:38] Robert W. Schneider: Nice.

[2:39] KEN BILLINGTON: Um, but it's I'm in good company then. My God. You know, but only because I know Stro from I think her first directing job, which was in the 80s, and it was up in Memarining on a Jerome Kern review. And it was produced by and written by Alice Hammerstein, Matthias. And I had known them since I was in high school. So they just said, Kenny's gonna do the lights. So she was introduced to me as I was introduced to her as Kenny. So I've always stayed Kenny.

[3:11] Robert W. Schneider: So you should just call her Susie then next time you see her.

[3:16] KEN BILLINGTON: Susie Q.

[3:17] Robert W. Schneider: Okay, so first of all, this resume is mind-boggling to me. How did we break it up again? We have, you know, it's Broadway Productions, spectaculars.

[3:28] KEN BILLINGTON: I one of my favorite parts is the pre-Broadway shows, which we will get to.

[3:31] Robert W. Schneider: But yeah, but the shows are the ones that close.

[3:34] KEN BILLINGTON: The clothes, that's right. Close out of time. Of course, Encores, international, national touring shows. And you know, yeah, you know what I just realized looking at the resume. I didn't even think of asking you this today. You worked in so many theaters in New York that are no longer with us anymore.

[3:46] KEN BILLINGTON: Yeah, I've done that. And you know, and I think I've worked in every theater except the Majestic.

[3:52] Robert W. Schneider: Well, I have obviously will not be doing anything in the Majestic. But I was interesting. The first show I ever saw, Broadway show, I saw at the Majestic. I remember exactly the seats I sat in. I remember everything about it. It was The Music Man with Robert Preston.

[4:10] KEN BILLINGTON: My mother, I grew up in Westchester.

[4:12] Robert W. Schneider: Right.

[4:12] KEN BILLINGTON: Which is 25 miles from Midtown. And so we took the train into a Wednesday matinee. She took me out of school. We saw, I think the first Wednesday matinee of The Music Man after it had opened. I remember a great deal about it. I really remember the seats I was in in the Majestic. And I remember turning to my mother and saying, you know, I'm gonna, this is what I'm gonna be a lighting designer. This is what I'm gonna do, and I'm gonna work in this theater. And she said, Okay, uh, whatever, probably. And I thought that was great.

[4:43] KEN BILLINGTON: So I have worked in every Broadway theater except the Majestic. So anyway, I'm gonna have to hang on for a long time. So if anybody's listening who's nine years old who's gonna produce the next show at the Majestic Theater, remember me.

[5:01] Robert W. Schneider: Ken is gonna come out of retirement for that one.

[5:03] KEN BILLINGTON: Amen. Um, okay, so when where did this fascination with lighting come from?

[5:08] KEN BILLINGTON: I honestly have no idea, uh, other than when I was in the turned the lights on and off for the fourth grade play, and the elementary school audience cheered when I did a blackout. Uh, and I thought, oh, this is fun. You know, I liked it. Um, I didn't know about what lighting was. So um, I thought lights were lights. And I, my parents, every time they looked out in the backyard, they saw me on top of a straight ladder, focusing the floodlights to up into the trees. So people were falling down on the uh in the backyard. The trees looked beautiful, but the backyard was a little dark.

[5:45] Robert W. Schneider: So you were even tinkering. I mean, you're tinkering, you're playing back then.

[5:49] KEN BILLINGTON: Oh my god. I did all that and joined. I know I was on the stage crew when we I got to junior high, was in the same high school, Harrison High School in Harrison, New York. And so I joined the stage crew and I did lighting, and you know, the children's shows used to come in on Saturday mornings. Um, and they were all New York actors, and you know, some of which turned out to be very famous eventually, but they were touring with whatever the kitty show was. So I met all these great sort of professionals, um, and they were always very kind to me. And, you know, and I don't think I knew what I was doing, but you know, I would lug in their set and I'd put it up and maybe blink the lights badly, but I did something.

[6:33] KEN BILLINGTON: Um then I started with the community players. And the reason I'm saying all this was just not to be boring, is a young person has got to find what they're gonna do. Uh and I was lucky enough to get with um community players, the Harrison Players. And um, Phil Matthias was the first director I ever lit a show for. It was Ten Little Indians. Uh and I was in ninth or tenth grade, I can't tell you what I was in. But Phil's career had been production stage manager for Rogers and Hammerstein on South Pacific, the Skin of Art. Oh my goodness. And the Federal Theater. I mean, he was, and he married Alice Hammerstein, and they had he had read they had retired up there. And so he started directing the community players. Now, all he had worked on was Broadway. So his point of reference was Joe Melziner and the great designers of Broadway.

[7:36] Robert W. Schneider: Right.

[7:36] KEN BILLINGTON: So he embraced that I was eager. Um, maybe I had raw talent, I didn't have any training. Uh, and he talked to me like he was talking to a professional. Uh huh. And I thought I respect him because this was a guy who had lots of credits and was well known in the business. And he dealt with me like I was a professional, uh, whatever in the ninth grade, however you were old you are, and you're in the ninth grade. And I lit the show, and I remember when we had the second year we did Harvey, and my great concept was to have a pink follow spot where the rabbit would be. Now, this is a stupid terrible idea. Bold. You know, for a 10th grader, it's probably I was thinking concept in about the show, not just what fun it would be to play with lights.

Um, he listened very carefully and then talked about it, and then obviously we didn't do it, uh, but you know, as it's a play, you don't need to see where the rabbit is. Anyway, uh, but I you know I respect that so much that um I learned a lot about how to work in the theater and how to be a professional. And so that was a great young training. And who would have ever thought there I am lighting The Pajama Game and Harvey and Ten Little Indians and High Button Shoes for the community players, um, and learning how to do what I do.

[9:01] Robert W. Schneider: Do you play an instrument or do you read music?

[9:04] KEN BILLINGTON: No.

[9:05] Robert W. Schneider: Wow.

[9:05] KEN BILLINGTON: Um, I remember taking piano lessons when I was in the fifth grade, but that ended after the fifth grade. I always wished I could play piano. If I ever had time, I'd probably learn, but I don't have time.

[9:14] Robert W. Schneider: And you had no interest in ever being on the stage, is that right?

[9:18] KEN BILLINGTON: Um, not really, no. I, you know, uh well, first of all, I don't know how actors do it, but first I have to learn all that. And then they have to do the same thing every night. And um, I, you know, yeah, no. You know, I like to go out and lecture and talk and do all that. That's fun. And um, but no.

[9:37] Robert W. Schneider: How fascinating.

[9:38] KEN BILLINGTON: Right.

[9:39] Robert W. Schneider: How really fascinating. I love it. And your parents were supportive about you going into the arts.

[9:43] KEN BILLINGTON: Well, you know, my mother was great. She um she said, do whatever you want. You gotta be happy.

[9:49] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, wow.

[9:50] KEN BILLINGTON: Um, I didn't go to college, by the way. Um, so uh my father was the local Chrysler dealer in Rye, and then the business had been in the family for since horse and buggies. Uh, and he wanted me to take over the company, but I wasn't interested in automobiles.

[10:09] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, I mean, I always had a great car, and you know, and I knew how to fix it. I knew all those things, but I wasn't interested in them. So I um found the theater interesting. So um, my father was upset, and so we I was assisting on a play nobody has ever heard of called After the Rain, starring Alec McCowan. That was at the Golden Theater, and it was like the dress rehearsal, so I got, or maybe it was a preview. Anyway, I got a couple of tickets, and I invited my parents, and they came in. And they shows in those days were at 8:30, and they got there early at like 7:30. So I met them in front of the Golden Theater. And the alley to the Golden Theater is right next to the front of the theater.

And as all as the crew was coming in, as the actors were all coming in, and they said, Hey Ken. Hi Ken. Hello, Ken. How's it going? And my father was very impressed that I people knew me. And then they saw the play, and then we went back to meet Alec McCowan and the star. And as everyone who was in the business knows, when you bring family backstage, the theater community just gushes about you and just says wonderful things and makes your family say, Hey, my kid did good. And um, and Alec did all of that. And my father walked out, and I guess what he said to my mother, oh, he's gonna be okay. And so it was, I think he had always worried that I would not make a living, or I wouldn't know people, or I wouldn't, uh whatever it is. So anyway, I think um I thank my parents for all that. And I thank my mother for taking me to the theater.

[11:52] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, yeah, and finding my love. How in the how did you and not going to college? How did you start assisting? How did you make that transition?

[11:59] KEN BILLINGTON: Oh, you know, it was interesting. I wanted to go to college, uh, but there were really at the time only the only place you could go that really taught lighting was uh it was called Carnegie Tech, which is now Carnegie Mellon. And my SATs uh were not high enough, so I didn't get in. I didn't get in. So there I was uh getting out of high school, um, and a friend of mine who had uh started the community players, he said, Oh, I found a school for you in New York. And it was called the Lester Polakov Studio and Forum of Stage Design. That was very fancy. And what it was is was a place where usually people who had gotten out of graduate school went to learn how to pass the United Scenic Arts exam.

The United Scenic Arts is a union, Broadway designers and that designers belong to, in general, for television and everything and film. And so I went there and I took a lighting course on Saturday mornings. I took a drafting course on Monday evenings, and I took a scene design course on Wednesday night. Now I was there with college grads. I wasn't there with other 18-year-olds. Luckily, in high school, I take a mechanical drawing because, which is drafting, because that's how I make my living. So where these lights are gonna go. Anyway, so I sort of knew that, and I just learned from these classes how to do how it worked in New York. And I was a kid, and I lived at home, I drove a car into the city, um, took 35 minutes.

I parked on the street and I would take these classes, and on the bulletin board there they would say what shows were loading in. So they would say, this show is loading in. If you want to stop by, be there at 10 o'clock on Monday morning or something. So I remember The Lion in Winter was loading in at the Ambassador Theater, and so I said, Oh, I want to go to that. So a couple of classmates and I, my by the way, my class was five. And it was the best Broadway.

[14:20] KEN BILLINGTON: The teachers for lighting were Peggy Clark, who probably has almost as many shows as I have to my credit, who lit the original Brigadoon. She did everything. She was the first person who ever got lighting design on a poster was Peggy Clark. So, Peggy was teaching it. Tom Skelton, who was the great dance lighting designer, and a fellow by the name of Chuck Levy, who worked for one of the manufacturers. It was great. So it was a good education. So anyway, long story short, I go to watch the load-in of The Lion in Winter, which Tharon Musser, arguably I think the greatest line designer ever lived, was lighting it, and she was very pleasant and very nice. And then she said, "So you could just show up at the theater and kind of be like, I'm interested in this."

But you just kind of showed up and checked it out. I love it. So I sat there and watched. And then she said, "Oh, listen, the next show I'm doing, I have a show in Boston called MAME. We're gonna be loading into the Winter Garden in a couple of weeks. If you want to stop by, stop by." So I said, "Oh, okay." I didn't know what MAME was. It was out of town, and we didn't know those things when they were out of town. So I showed up at the Winter Garden when the trucks did and watched the load-in for MAME for three or four days. And three days probably in those days, load-ins were faster. And then I left when they started tech. But I remember the night before she said, "I'm gonna buy you a drink.

You've been here more than I have." So we went to the Taft Hotel across the street, had a drink, and then I wrote her a letter and said, "I want to work for you." I said, "I don't know if you remember me, but I worked as letters before email." And I sent the letter to her, and she wrote one back and said, "Well, I don't have anything in New York, but I need an assistant at the American Shakespeare Festival in Stratford, Connecticut, if you would like to do that." And I thought, yes, and $65 a week. So I went to Stratford, Connecticut and did five shows in rep, living at home, actually, which was another 35 minutes the other way. So what I loved is Theron took a chance on me. You know, I was totally unqualified for that job.

I was eager, I was a pleasant fellow, but I maybe was unqualified. So she took me under her wing and I did the shows there. The first show was Julius Caesar, and the second show was A Midsummer Night's Dream directed by Cyril Richards, starring Cyril Richards. Designed by Bill and Jean Eckert, and then there was an Antigone that I think John Houseman directed. So I was working with all these famous people and doing rep. And this was real rep. It was a different show in the afternoon than in the evening. And so I did that, and that season ground to a halt, and she called me and said, "I just lost my assistant. You want to be my New York assistant?" And I said, sure. So the first thing I did with her was the national tour of MAME, starring Celeste Holm.

[17:45] KEN BILLINGTON: And that was all of a sudden I was now working Midtown. Though that one was in Baltimore. But then the next show she did after that was The Birthday Party, and then After the Rain, The Promise, and then the next season we did three flop musicals in a row, Mother's Kisses, they're not on my resume, A Mother's Kisses, Fig Leaves Are Falling, Maggie Flynn. Oh yes. So I did all these shows. And interestingly, I was the assistant, and the technology, there were no computers, guys pushing handles, fixed lights, no color changers, no smoke machines. So I really wrote down everything because if I didn't, then there was no way to back up, you know. So I wrote everything down. But there I was doing Maggie Flynn, directed by Morton DeCosta, starring Jack Cassidy, Shirley Jones, you know, and that was then the next week after we left that, we went to New Haven and did A Mother's Kisses, directed by Gene Sachs and Anna White choreographing, the Eckert's designing it, starring Bea Arthur. And that got out of New Haven and made it to Baltimore, where it closed. That was the show where Bernadette Peters was fired in rehearsal because they wrote her part out. Oh my goodness.

[19:23] Kevin David Thomas: What does assistant do you at this time period? What were your duties as an assistant?

[19:29] KEN BILLINGTON: We're writing down what we call focus charts. When the designer aims a light to an area on stage, you have to write it down because we like our shows to run a long time. Sometimes the lights get hit, knock, burn out, blow up, or get moved to another theater for your tour. So you need to know that this spotlight is here. It is 12 feet left of center, and it shuttered off of this drop, and it's in red. So that's what I do. So they take the focus charts. I would manually write down all the dimmer readings because it was men running these boards backstage, so it wasn't a computer. So it was manual. So there were three men running the lights for a musical. So you had to write down because when you wanted to go back, nobody knew what back was.

So I would read and say, "Put one at five, take three out, take six full." I would read back where we were, and then we could run the transition again, as opposed to hitting the go back button. I'd also write down what the follow spots were doing and would get coffee, which is why I started drinking coffee black because I don't drink coffee at all anymore. But I used to put sugar in my coffee. And when I would go out to get coffee, it would be, "Oh, milk and two sugars," and "one sugar," and all of a sudden I had a coffee order for like nine coffees for the director and the choreographer and the set designers, and every one of them was different. And I said, "From now on, I am drinking my coffee black. I'm never gonna put anybody through this."

[21:06] Kevin David Thomas: Simple and easy.

[21:06] KEN BILLINGTON: Yeah, it's totally black. You're a good man, KEN BILLINGTON. Oh my goodness. So doing all these shows, and then we went right on to a thing called The Fig Leaves Are Falling, which was directed by George Abbott. Yes. Starring Dorothy Loud. Great George Abbott. And it was, you know, so in one season, I worked with the top directors of musicals of the era, or George Abbott for a long era. And they were all flops. They were all done with like they were gonna be hits. Nobody went into it. They didn't work. And it was also in the days when opening night was opening night. You know, you would go to your out-of-town, all these shows went out of town, and they came into New York, and they would do four or five previews and then open. You know, they wouldn't.

[22:01] KEN BILLINGTON: Yeah, and the critics came to the book. They would have an opening would be at 6:30 because curtains were usually at 8:30. So when the 6:30, the curtain would come, but opening night was opening night, so nobody knew what you were gonna see. And I remember, and I've only seen this one other time in my career, but it was The Fig Leaves Are Falling, and Dorothy Loud had a number in Act Two called All of My Laughter. It was an Albert Haig's, Alan Sherman score. And I think Barbara Streisand maybe recorded that. But anyway, Dorothy Loud came out on opening night and did this song in the middle of this not very good musical. And at the end of the number, there was an ovation. And in those days, nobody stood up in the theater.

There was an ovation. I mean, an ovation that didn't stop. It was cheering and screaming that just kept peaking more. It started high and stayed high. It didn't drop down so the show could go on. The show was stopped, dead in its tracks there. Jack Lee was conducting, and he turned to Dorothy and said, "Do it again." And she did this number a second time to a bigger ovation of screaming and cheering and carrying on. And after it was over, the audience knew the show now needs to continue. The show continued. It closed three days later. But you know, that performance, I remember that. That was like that doesn't really happen. You know, you see it in the movies, but in real life, that doesn't happen.

[23:39] Kevin David Thomas: And an encore too.

[23:41] KEN BILLINGTON: That encore, you never see it, that doesn't exist.

[23:44] Kevin David Thomas: These three shows that you worked on that did not work. Were you aware at the time you guys were putting them on that this isn't gonna work?

[23:50] KEN BILLINGTON: Well, I knew when it was bad, but what did I know? I was young, I was 19 or something, or 20 maybe. So I didn't really, it was glamorous. I was there, I was in the room doing this, none of it being my fault, so I could observe it all. The best way to see a, and you know, I liked Maggie Flynn. I liked the score to Maggie. I always thought that was a good score. And there was a lot, a lot of good in it, had two big stars in it and everything. A Mother's Kisses was not good. That was the musical version of how to be a Jewish mother. And it just wasn't very good. And everyone was working hard to make it work, and it just didn't work. I mean, when the big second act number was, "I'm going to be a graduate at KLM Kansas City Land Grant University." That was the K L G A U. So you know it's not going to go much further than that.

[24:49] Kevin David Thomas: This is the Man of La Mancha songwriting team, isn't it?

[25:01] Kevin David Thomas: How interesting.

[25:01] KEN BILLINGTON: Okay. So I'm sorry, we're now still in the uh.

[25:05] Kevin David Thomas: No, no, no. This is amazing. So I was gonna ask you, you mentioned the computer automation and all that fun stuff, but how was a tech process different back when you were starting as opposed to now, besides the technology?

[25:19] KEN BILLINGTON: Here is the reality. And shows were just as big, by the way. Yes. They were, you know, My Fair Lady had two turntables. I mean, they're on the roof had the double revolve. I mean, shows were big. So it wasn't that shows have now gotten bigger, they were big then. The typical schedule was, and I did this on all these musicals. The previous show would leave New Haven on Saturday night, and they would load it out after the show Saturday night. So they'd be gone by 2 a.m., I guess, 3 a.m. And then the next musical would load in Sunday morning, obviously eight hours after. And they would work Sunday, they would work Monday, and Monday night you would get there to focus lights. There was no such thing as a dry tech.

The stage managers figured out what the winches did because they were cranked by guys. They weren't hitting buttons. And by the way, New Haven was a hemp house, which means there were no counterweights. They put sandbags and all that. So, and every musical played there, by the way. This wasn't the ones on it. So the crew was great. And so that would get you through Monday night. And then you'd finish everything Tuesday. And Tuesday night, you would start tech, and Tuesday night and Wednesday afternoon be act one, Wednesday night, Thursday afternoon be act two, Thursday night would be a dress rehearsal, Friday afternoon would be a dress rehearsal, Friday night preview. And that's a schedule My Fair Lady did.

It's a schedule every show did. And then it would play. I remember one of the shows moved it to Saturday. But they would then play the next week and move it to Boston, load it in, do the same, load it in two days and do his performances. And they'd go from Boston to another city, and then they'd come to New York. So by the time they got to New York, they had loaded it in three times. So you could load it in in a few days. But tech was, I love Encore. I just did, I have opening tonight. The New Yorkers. But on Monday morning, we started lighting at 8 o'clock a.m. and we finished our tech at 6 p.m. And on Tuesday we did the dress rehearsal, and we had 1800 people last night. And everyone goes, "God, you do it so fast."

And I said, "Well, no, that's the way it used to always be." What happened is technology slowed us down. So we now have to program the automation to get the scenery on and off. When it used to be Harry cranked that to crank the winch to crank it to 34, and he'd crank, and when the little counter came 34, he'd stopped cranking. Take it to 36. And it would go 36, it'd be a foot further left or something. So that was how scenery came, and when it went up and down, it was guys on the fly floor. So you were only limited to how many men you had. Oh, we have five things moving, and we have three men, so you had to routine it. Lighting was guys pushing handles up and down. There were no moving lights, there were no color scrollers.

If you want a red light, you went and put red gel in the light. You had three follow spots. You also in electrics had a big crew, so there'd be three men running the boards, there'd be a head follow spot, there would be a deck electrician.

[25:52] KEN BILLINGTON: No. Playing in fancy. Oh. And Mitch Lee, though, did. Mitch Lee, that's when Man of La Mancha is there.

[28:49] KEN BILLINGTON: Uh so you would have at least five electricians doing that for you.

[28:53] Robert W. Schneider: That's amazing.

[28:54] KEN BILLINGTON: And I did that up through On the 20th Century.

[28:56] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[28:57] KEN BILLINGTON: That was manual.

[28:58] Robert W. Schneider: Um, I think that was the last one.

[29:00] KEN BILLINGTON: That was your last manual show.

[29:01] KEN BILLINGTON: Maybe working with that season was the last manual show.

[29:05] KEN BILLINGTON: Uh but um, yeah, so you just did it. You never I never realized how fast though.

[29:12] KEN BILLINGTON: It was fast. Uh and I remember when we did uh the original Sweeney Todd, we loaded in to the Urus, now Gershwin Theater, for two weeks, which was unheard of in the American theater.

[29:25] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[29:26] KEN BILLINGTON: Shows never spent more than four or five days loading in. And we went for two weeks, and so much steel came into the building that the steel workers building a building across the street uh showed up to see what was being done.

[29:40] Robert W. Schneider: What are these guys doing?

[29:42] KEN BILLINGTON: But we they loaded in for two weeks. We checked for I had the production schedule, but it we checked for six days, previewed for seven, and opened.

[29:54] KEN BILLINGTON: On Sweeney Todd.

[29:55] Robert W. Schneider: Sweeney Todd, which is arguably one of the great musicals of the 20th century.

[29:59] KEN BILLINGTON: Agreed.

[30:00] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[30:00] KEN BILLINGTON: And the staging was remarkable. And everything was, and we didn't go out of town. Now they did rehearse in the Anta Theater, which is now the August Wilson, with modules with all the pieces, not the real pieces, but with all the pieces.

[30:15] KEN BILLINGTON: But no, it was it was done. Now I did have a memory console on that. But you know, we didn't lights didn't move. I had six follow spots. That was my moving lights. So uh anyway, it was fast.

[30:30] Robert W. Schneider: When a new technological advancement pops up, are you wary or do you get excited and want to dive right in and see how these things work?

[30:37] KEN BILLINGTON: I l I listen, I've always used I used the first moving lights on Broadway and for a musical called Grind in 1983 or 84. I can't remember. Another Hal Prince, yeah. Um by the way, you must remember moving lights weren't invented until 1981. Uh and then there were only two manufacturers of them.

[30:57] KEN BILLINGTON: And um I started, I was using them for other things, but I started using them on Broadway. Nobody had ever seen a moving light in the theater. And just quickly for our listeners, would you explain what a moving light's function is?

[31:08] KEN BILLINGTON: Sure. A moving light is a spotlight that can be from uh from a lighting console from a computer, can be aimed any place you want. Uh it can be put in any color you want. It can have a projection of a gobo if you wanted leaves. Uh it can be a hard edge, it can be a soft edge, it can be big, it can be small.

[31:29] KEN BILLINGTON: So instead of hanging a light to light somebody standing in a doorway, which is what we used to do, the director would call and say, uh, if she's gonna stand in the doorway, you better get a special on her. So we would hang a light and focus it to the doorway to light so and so when they came in. Now you hang a moving light and they say, Oh, we need light in the doorway. You move this light from the lighting desk and you move it over and it aim there and say, Oh, it should be pink, and boom, but you do it, you change the color, you soften it, you light so and so at the door. Now a page later, somebody makes an entrance in another door. You take that same light, because nobody's in that door, move it over to the other door, and you can use it to light that door.

And then they're back there in the second act, and it's nighttime, so you need it in blue, so you can make it blue because it can do all that. So you can take one light and duplicate um make many lights out of it.

[32:26] Robert W. Schneider: Right.

[32:26] KEN BILLINGTON: So when I did Grind, I set was very complex by uh Clark Dunham, and I didn't have room for I needed two or three electric pipes right downstage, and there was room for one. Uh and I was baffled about how am I going to light all of this.

[32:50] KEN BILLINGTON: Yeah. And I said, Well, you know, well, I'm gonna put four moving lights on that pipe. So we got the four moving lights, and it just everyone shocked because A, they were expensive and all that. But we did it, and nobody had ever done that before, and it went quickly. And the interesting story that goes with that is um Lester Wilson had choreographed the show. Uh starred Ben Vereen. And uh we needed a they wanted a number in Act Two for Ben, uh, a dance number. Uh so Hal called Bob Fosse and said, Bob, come in and take a look at this and see if you can do a number for Ben. Um I don't know why Lester didn't do it. Uh that part is just lost, I just don't remember. Lester was still there, he wasn't fired, there wasn't anything, but Fosse was going to do a number for Ben.

[33:41] KEN BILLINGTON: So they rehearsed it. We were in New York. We had been out of town, but now we were in New York. And so I went uh right in this building where we're recording this down to NOLA Studios. Uh Bob was working with um uh Ben. So I was told to come to a rehearsal at whatever, two o'clock. And so I arrive at two o'clock or 11 o'clock, whatever time, I arrive to the rehearsal hall, and there's Bob Fosse, a piano player, and me. And and Ben Vereen not there. He was late. So um I saw him talking to Fosse, and I said, Well, you know, I have um four automated lights. And he said, What are those? So I explained to him this is a light I can move any place and make any color. So I said, if you want a special on him here, I can make a special.

And if you want to move him three feet over, because that isn't the right place, I said I just move it on the computer. He said, Really? I said, yes. So he listened to me and he said, Well, let me show you the number. So Ben still wasn't there, so Fosse danced the number for me.

[34:47] KEN BILLINGTON: No way.

[34:48] KEN BILLINGTON: And for an audience of one. And um then showed up and Ben ran the number, and the number was good. It was uh so we had an afternoon to tech it. It was going in, and so the next day we get there, and so Bob saying, Now I need a special here for him in the opening. And I said, Okay, okay. And I said, take light one and put it there. I said, okay. And he I saw the look and he said, How'd you do that? And I said, Well, it's a moving light that a guy is moving from the computer. And he said, Really? He said, So I can have another special over there. And I said, sure. So we turned another light on over there. And he said, What else can we do? I said, Do you want a special color in it? He said, Yeah, when he goes like that, it should go red.

I said, boom, and it went red. I could see in this genius all the wheels turning. That he found a new artistic tool for his work. And it was the only time I ever worked with him. And after that, Jules Fisher uh lit all of um uh Bob Fosse's shows, and the next show was a heavy moving light show, which it should have been because that's when they were starting to show up.

[35:59] KEN BILLINGTON: Yeah, uh, that Bob did and Jules lit. And but it was just interesting being there with him for the first light in the show.

[36:06] Robert W. Schneider: And see that so cool.

[36:11] KEN BILLINGTON: And we lit the number, and it was good, didn't save the show, but it was uh it was uh it was a Bob Fosse number danced by Ben Vereen at the height of his career.

[36:21] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[36:21] KEN BILLINGTON: That looked pretty cool.

[36:22] Robert W. Schneider: That's really cool.

[36:23] KEN BILLINGTON: That's wild.

[36:24] Robert W. Schneider: How early do you like to be involved in the process?

[36:28] KEN BILLINGTON: As early as possible. Because the one thing I need to explain to everyone is I just don't turn lights on and off. I can do that, that's easy. Um I want to develop the project. So not so interesting for me is to go off and light uh regional production of Hedda Gabler, because Hedda Gabler's been done brilliantly by a lot of people. Not saying I wouldn't do it brilliantly, but you're gonna open the play, and that's what it's gonna be.

[36:58] Robert W. Schneider: Right.

[36:59] KEN BILLINGTON: You know, you may set it in the future, you may set it in the past, but whatever. It's still gonna be that. And uh that to me isn't quite as interesting as creating. Because when you put a Broadway show together, you know, when the you get the first script, it doesn't have an outline of the set in the back of the plate of the script. It's like you open it up and it says a stormy morning. Uh uh and sometimes the playwright will say because it's necessary, the bar, there's a bar down left and there's a sofa and there's the garden upright or something because it has a lot to do with the plot. But many times they don't even have that, they just are the words.

[37:43] KEN BILLINGTON: So the designers uh have to come up with what is the visual that the audience is gonna see when the curtain goes up. Now, this is all in concert with the director. You know, as I always say, we are hired by the producer, we're paid for the producer, yes, we work for the producer, but our boss is the director. Because the director's the one who's gonna be blamed or cheered. Uh, you know, uh it's it's not they don't blame the producer if it's not a success.

[38:14] KEN BILLINGTON: Um the director is uh the person I work for. And so what I like is when you get have that first meeting and the set designer is there, and if luckily, if you can get all the designers in the room at once, if they've all been contacted, um that you then talk openly about the show, the good parts, the bad parts, the how do we do, how are we gonna create this? But it's a very open dialogue because it's out of this is going to become a visual. Um in fact, tomorrow morning I have a meeting with Walter Bobby, who's directing the two new Paul Rudnick play, and it's John Lee Beattie, uh William I. Long and myself, and we're sitting down in my conference room, and it's the first time we're all getting together to talk about this show.

[39:05] KEN BILLINGTON: So we'll see whatever comes of it. But that's exciting. So, you know, your your concept comes. I remember Hal saying throwing Eugene Lee and I on Sweeney Todd pictures of sunlight coming through the windows of Grand Central Station. He said, This looks good. Um, but that you know, uh, and then Eugene came up and came up with this foundry, and we came up and I put light through the windows. But it was um it's a very creative process. And ultimately, after that meeting, the set designer has to go off and come up with excuse me. The set designer has to go off and come up with a surround. What is the location? The world um what what is this world? And I can do nothing while that world is being created because I I don't know what that world is.

[39:59] KEN BILLINGTON: Uh the costume designer might be holding back also until they see what the world of the scenery is. But what I like is when the set designer calls me and says, Hey, look at this. What do you think? Can we light that? Or is there gonna be do you need more room here if to do this? There’s all these sort of more technical questions. But we talk about it, and then a set sketches, depending on models, and it's presented to the director, and we're there, and we all see it, and then I then can visualize how to illuminate it. And the costume designer said, Ah, the set's all red, so we're not gonna be doing green costumes, you know, it's whatever those things are. And then the scenery goes off to be drawn up because it has to be built. One of the things the theater is, it's handmade. You don't buy it out of a catalog. So every set you see is built for the show. Every costume is built for the show. Everything is created for this show.

[41:07] KEN BILLINGTON: There's no stock things. I mean, yes, I guess you can rent tuxedos, but uh and dresses, but you know, it's like everything is handmade.

[41:17] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, we're one of the things.

[41:18] KEN BILLINGTON: And painted everything. One of the few industries left that is totally handmade.

[41:24] Robert W. Schneider: It's so true.

[41:25] KEN BILLINGTON: It's a really great observation. Because I know scenic painters, and for instance, who who take such pride in the tiniest detail of uh, you know, the backdrop of a show. You know, and there's there's such pride in that artistry as well, you know.

[41:38] Robert W. Schneider: Now you brought this up before, but I think it's such a great reminder for our listeners, which is you know, you and your set designer really have to work in tandem with each other, because in some ways you're both fighting for space on some in some guards.

[41:49] KEN BILLINGTON: We're always fighting for space, and you know, and that has to come, and then that's when the negotiation begins.

[41:55] KEN BILLINGTON: Yeah, um, a set designer knows um that we need 30 inches for an electric because that's how uh a moving light is 27 inches long, so you need 30 inches, otherwise it bangs into stuff. It used to be with when you just had before moving lights, you needed 24 inches. Uh and if they didn't leave the 24 inches, then there was no light. And if there was no light, who suffered? Everybody.

[42:26] KEN BILLINGTON: So the actors were darkened too, the scenery wasn't lit in two, and it didn't look good, but we had that extra set. And so when you sit in this meeting, and the set designer say, Ken, I have no room for lights in two and three because we have to go through so many scenes. How are we gonna solve this? And then you have to sit with the director and the author sometimes and say, can we do the when they go back? They go to a hotel room for you know two pages of dialogue.

[43:01] KEN BILLINGTON: Could they do that on the street? Because we have a street drop in one. I'm making this up. But uh so okay, yeah, sure. So we can get rid of the hotel set. So now that freed up a foot. So now what and so you play this game of shoving and pushing uh to figure out where to put the lights because we both need the room. Yeah, and we don't have the same goal, too. Hey, at the end of the day, we want a hit show. Yeah. Uh I I remember when we were doing On the 20th Century, we uh went to Boston, Robin Wagner designed the scenery, and I was lighting it, and it was manual control and everything. And I put my lights in, and I needed projections on the first electric, so lighting the backdrop, so of movement.

And so I had said to Robin, I needed uh 18 inches. He gave me 18 and a half inches. If something blew, uh anyway, uh and then there was no room in two. There was too much scenery. And I was young. And this was Robin Wagner, it was Hal Prince, it was Comden and Green, Zy Coleman was all these great, and I was a kid. And so I didn't put my foot down early enough and say, this is wonderful, it's beautiful, and it was all figured out, but I can it's unlightenable. And we got to Boston, and I couldn't light in two. And I had lights and they were doing it. And the carpenter came up to us one day, Robin and Ken and Ken, and he said, You two, come here. And so we went on stage and he pointed up into the flies and he said, See that set?

And you see those lights, one of them's gotta go. And he said, I don't care what it is, you two fight it out. But after lunch, one of them's not going to be in the air. And Robin said, Oh, well, couldn't you take a light and put it over there pointing to a spare foot? And you know, and this was all conventional lights, and it was nowadays. I could have probably put a moving light there and things, but I couldn't then. And luckily, this was about nine in the morning as Robin and I were fighting it out. At 10 o'clock, the stage manager came in and said, They've cut the um apartment set, which was the one that was in the way. The scene was cut from the show. It used to go to um uh Oscar Chaffee's apartment.

Oh, yeah, and it got cut. And uh the song got cut, everything got cut, and the set came down, the lights staged, so I won. But uh I said to myself then I said, Okay, we can never get to this point where it's 10 in the morning and I'm looking up and we're gonna have a one o'clock rehearsal and there's no way to do anything. That's crazy.

[45:44] KEN BILLINGTON: So you but you know, everyone wants it to be good. You know, looking at your resume, it seems and uh correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like you enjoy doing new works as opposed to revivals. Is that what that is that a correct statement? Well that goes back to what we were talking about earlier. I love the creation of the art. And after you know, you get these creations, you you sit in the theater and you do tech rehearsal. And you know, I just did Murder on the Orient Express last week. It opened on Friday out in um at uh McArthur. And we were struggling through a transition, and I went to the director and I said, What if he did this? And she said, Oh, okay, and we did it, and of course it totally solved the transition.

Well, that's fun. Those things again get written into the script, and then it becomes that forevermore. But that's the fun part is creating the musical and just being, you know, just because it says lighting on the title case doesn't mean I turn the lights on and off. Right. And directors sometimes want me there because I know how to do uh how to make it look good and how to tell the story and how to make it move. Now, when you've done as many shows as I have, I really do know how to make scenery move if everyone else or a scene shift work, yeah, if everyone else is struggling with it or not seeing the forest through the trees, as it were. Yes, you know, um, or they're stuck on why as opposed to now.

Um and but everyone's open to that. That's what we're there for. You know, it isn't, oh, can I mention to the director that I'm uh that I think we should do that? You know, well, I imagine you have a certain directors that you have these relationships with now, this trust that they know that you're on the same, you know, you know and well, you know, and it's when I'm gonna work with a new director, which I love working with new directors, um, that you know, everyone says, Oh, how do you how do you get a job with a director? Well, you know, since I can't show them anything, I can show them my personality. There's that my meeting with a first a director usually is for lunch someplace, whether it's a coffee shop or the Russian tea room, it's usually the coffee shop.

But um, you sit down and you have lunch and you say, Hey, did you have you seen, and you talk about the show that opened last night, and you talk about what else is coming up, and then you talk about the last show they did, last show you did, and then you spend about 10 minutes talking about the show that you're they you're talking about doing together, and then you have a lovely time, and then you leave and say, Did we get and the director and I will say to each other when we get home, uh to myself, I'll say, Yeah, I like this guy. Yeah, or the director might say, Yeah, he's pretty good. This is not gonna work out. So that's how I do it. I mean, I don't bring pretty pictures and say, well, you know, I'm gonna make it look like this.

And um, and that's not the way it works. So, you know, because you it's all what I do is all about trust. Yeah. They have to trust you. Now, I have a track record, so people trust me. So no matter what what it is, I probably will make it look good, hopefully. You know, I won't, or at least make it look presentable, maybe not brilliant, but I'll make it, and it's gonna it's gonna be an easy process because also the thing I learned with working with all of these people, and I've worked with everybody from stars to directors to choreographers, is there's no time for temperament. Yeah. You know, yes, we've all seen the Diva fits, we've all seen the director scream and storm out. I we've I've been through all of it.

Um, but you've never seen me get angry in a theater. Because, well, it's about four times in my career, and when I've done it, it's the building has stopped because nobody ever sees it. I was gonna say, yeah, uh, but when there's no time. We we have a set, we we're gonna do a show on this day, and we don't have enough time to get there, and we're all in this together, and I have my problems, and the sets have their problems, and the orchestrations aren't finished, and the director has a cold, and the stage manager, you know, lost his script. I don't know, whatever it is. There's everybody has these problems. We're still gonna do a show Friday night. So everyone just get over it and solve the problem and don't solve it by having a tempered chantrum crying, screaming, flipping over the box and table. You know, whatever those things are.

[50:10] KEN BILLINGTON: Um, you know, and when I have gotten really angry by things in the theater, um, I will go out and walk around the block. When you do a revival, like for example, Sunday in the Park with George, I find so fascinating because you've done two revivals of it now. Right. Um, when you let's talk about the first time, the first revival that you did with it. Did you go back and look at the original? Or I had seen the original. Of course, yeah. And I remember uh the at intermission walking out of the theater with tears running down my eyes, and I ran into Tharon Musser, who was there also at that night, and she had tears running down her eyes. So I thought, okay, there's something brilliant about this.

Uh was it ever my favorite musical? I don't know. I don't think so, but I remembered the theater going experience very fondly, and had only good thoughts about the entire event. Then when I was asked to do, I had seen it at the chocolate factory in London, and I loved it actually. And then when they brought it to Broadway, they asked me to light it here. And I had meetings with the director, and it was all projections, and they had done it on the West End, and they had done the chocolate factory, and then they were coming here. And it was these guys, the designer and the director, good director, good design team, good projection team. Um we they knew it intimately, and they just immediately accepted me into their world.

Oh wow. They knew it all so intimately, they would talk shorthand, and I'd finally have to say, uh, what are you talking about, guys? Uh and they go, Oh, oh, and then they would get it. But we did it, and it was wildly successful. And I learned I loved it. I mean, I loved the show. That's why that's when it became a favorite musical. Um, and we did it, and it was very successful, but it was all projection, and one of the best projection shows I think I've ever seen. But, you know, uh, I thought, and maybe because I was there, but I thought it was quite beautiful. And then when we did this one at City Center, clearly I know the work, uh, but it was for three performances, and we did it, and it was so stripped down uh that it was really interesting that I thought it worked.

So uh, and then, and it sold out, and it was there was an honesty to it that made it sort of a magical evening. With three rehearsals and four hours at tech. I mean, it was uh it was a benefit. Uh and then when Jake said he wanted to do it on Broadway, um, and uh we opened in February of 2017, which a new Broadway theater, too. At a new Broadway theater that wasn't quite finished, but we were there, and um and again it works, but it's a it's so different from the original, the revival that I did and what's there now. Yes, it's a lot of projections. It's exquisite to look at. It is the band is on stage, the orchestra's upstage behind a scrim. And again, that honesty, and the actors now, because they've been playing it, uh, they actually got three weeks of rehearsal as opposed to four days.

Uh, the performances are so good. So you look at it and you go, it's a totally different production. I I never once said, Well, you know, when I did it last time, yeah, uh because that was the last time that was this. And you're okay putting all of that aside. You know, I can't live in the past. Yeah. I have to live in the future. So I can tell you great stories about all these shows as I've been doing, but I'm actually knowing, I'm looking forward to what's coming up as opposed to um uh remember the good things. I usually forget the bad things, unless they were funny and really bad. Uh and um and so you know, I'm uh looking forward, I'm not looking back. I mean, you know, it was an old stagehand joke, uh that um the musical Jumbo, and uh, you know, the you know, there was the director and the stage hand and the designer talking, and another stage hand walked by and said, Oh, the rehang and Jumbo one more time, because they were reliving a show from 30 years ago.

Right, right, as opposed to what was happening on the stage today. Uh so um, you know, I that's funny. And which is why I look at techno, I jump into technology. Yeah, I mean, you know, uh uh Tharon Musher used the first computer on Broadway, I used the second. Yeah, um, you know, I uh started using Xenon Follows Plus Faring. I start using moving lights. By the way, my other colleagues do use all this stuff, but I was not afraid to try. Yeah, as long as the manufacturer was on my side, um, I'll give it a crack because if it doesn't work, we need to resolve it.

[55:17] KEN BILLINGTON: Right. Because you've been doing this for so long, I'm assuming you get a lot of people that reach out to you going, I'd love to assist you the way that you reached out to Theron Musser years ago. Um what do you look for in an intern or an assistant? Well, I don't use interns. You don't use interns. No, because I first of all I don't think anybody should work for free. Um, you know, I just think that that's wrong. And if you're going to be working for me, doing things for me, you should be remunerated for it, whatever that amount of money is. The other thing is with an intern, I don't need you. I have a staff that can do this job. So I'm now gonna bring somebody into the theater, uh, into my office and the theater and all that, that they may be bright and smart.

I'm not that's not part of it, but they are not attuned to what we're trying to do. Yeah, so it becomes a teaching tool, and I don't have time to do that. What I do do is every year I hire somebody just out of college to work in my office for a year. Oh, how wonderful. And I have done that for years, including people that are now quite famous, like Natasha Katz. But you know, so I always have done that, which is my way of and they're a paid person in my office. Um and I I find that is better. I don't mind somebody coming and watching when we do, but you know, I I don't need somebody to run and get coffee. Yeah. I can run out the stage door also on my five-minute break. Yeah. And maybe that's better to get up and leave.

Yeah. Go out and look at sunlight and a little bit of fresh air before you come back to throw yourself into the next two hours. Um so interns I don't find to be. I worry about them too, and I say, Oh, I'm not giving them anything to do. Oh, I'm not doing this. Uh now I'm sure every single show that you've worked on has had posed some challenge to you, but was there one that was particularly more challenging for any reason than any of the others?

[57:20] KEN BILLINGTON: Um sure, I guess I would have to think about it. I can think of one I could ask you about.

[57:24] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, yeah.

[57:25] KEN BILLINGTON: I would love for you to talk about Dance of the Vampires.

[57:27] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, Dance of the Vampires. Remember that? Remember that preview process?

[57:31] KEN BILLINGTON: Yes, I remember for months. Yes, Dance of the Vampires is uh taking us back to the uh what I want to say 2000, 2002. Famously had a really long preview process. Michael Crawford was the lead. It was sort of a pop musical at the end. Isn't that amazing? Russia and everything.

[57:52] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, it is the biggest hit in Europe.

[57:52] KEN BILLINGTON: Yeah. We did we did it three weeks here. Um famously underwent lots of changes and uh it was ultimately I think where the problem fell is when the part that Michael Crawford played is not the lead.

[58:08] Robert W. Schneider: Right.

[58:09] KEN BILLINGTON: And the show was rewritten to make his character more prominent throughout the show. That character in the German production doesn't even make an entrance till three-quarters of the way through act one. Um we had a Michael Crawford made an entrance in Act One. Um Michael was a total pro and the show was beautiful to look at.

[58:32] Robert W. Schneider: Yes, it was.

[58:33] KEN BILLINGTON: And everything was good about it. Uh it just was um I don't know. I I I had way, by the way, had a wonderful time on it. I loved everybody. John Rando directed it. I just did a show with John Rando tonight. So uh, you know, it's um it wasn't bad, it was just enormous. And it was it was late getting designed, and Dave Gallo would literally design a set and send it to the shop, and then we would figure out the next set because we were so far behind schedule, and then we'd figure out the next set, and it would that would go, and sometimes you say, Oh, well, that's it doesn't necessarily match that set, but it because that was designed last two weeks ago. This one was designed this week, and they're building them already because it was uh it got into financial trouble and got late and whatever.

[59:26] Robert W. Schneider: And it happened, and we loaded in on the 5th of July.

[59:32] KEN BILLINGTON: I focused lights the second week of September. We started tech shortly after that. We tech'd for three weeks. Then we previewed from the first of October to the middle of December. And then it closed the first week of January. Three months of tech.

[59:55] Robert W. Schneider: That's right.

[59:56] KEN BILLINGTON: That's right. And I have great pictures. Oh, I think it's that one I have. One of the lighting companies sent a photographer. How marvelous is that? Also, speaking of fascinating, I want to make sure we cover this. You have a really unique distinction, which is you were the lighting designer for the longest running American musical, and that is Chicago.

[1:00:12] Robert W. Schneider: Yes.

[1:00:14] KEN BILLINGTON: Well, last night, you know, March 20th, 2017, was John Kander's 90th birthday. And they did an event in the theater, and it was wonderful. And I remember I was talking after the show to Walter Bobby and John Lee, the set designer, and myself, and I think the general manager. And we said, Is there anybody in the show now that wasn't born when it opened? The revival opened. The show is 20 years on Broadway. Now, no, there isn't. But the because the cast of Chicago is not young. It's more mature.

[1:00:56] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[1:00:56] KEN BILLINGTON: Uh in the chorus and everything. Uh so uh not, but we said, Oh, probably in a couple of years, there will be people that hadn't been born when the show started performing wildly. Amazing. You know, and you I you don't get tired of it, I'm assuming to get to go back and no, I you know, it's good. It's really good. It's a good musical.

[1:01:16] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[1:01:17] KEN BILLINGTON: It is, and everything is good about it. It was well conceived, designed, directed, uh, well produced. Uh and it't be there 20 years if it wouldn't be good.

[1:01:32] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[1:01:33] KEN BILLINGTON: And you know, and sometimes it does more business depending on the stars or but really doesn't have losing weeks.

[1:01:39] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[1:01:40] KEN BILLINGTON: We just opened in Copenhagen the second time. You know, we played Australia twice. There has been a US tour out pretty constantly since 1998. 97. We opened 97, 98. Um the UK tour has been out since 2001. And you know, and I always say, and it closes down for six months and goes back out and then goes to Singapore and they bring it back to the UK. But I say Chicago has been touring the United Kingdom and its environs since 2001.

[1:02:17] Robert W. Schneider: By the way, that's the size of Texas.

[1:02:20] KEN BILLINGTON: It's a great show. It's because the British Isles are small.

[1:02:26] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[1:02:26] KEN BILLINGTON: Uh compared to our giant landmass here. So uh and and it's fun, and it's fun to do it in the other languages, to do it in Swedish and Russian and Italian and German and uh Dutch and Spanish and Portuguese and uh and it's what's so interesting, the jokes in the always land in the same place. But the one lyric that never changes, every word, no matter what language it is, is jazz.

[1:02:48] Robert W. Schneider: That's something jazz.

[1:02:54] KEN BILLINGTON: Jazz, yeah. So that's really cool. Because everybody in the world knows what that word.

[1:03:00] Robert W. Schneider: Of course.

[1:03:00] KEN BILLINGTON: That's so cool. So you must it it must be real exciting to work in the theater like that, but then it especially more intimate theater, but then you for 30 plus years you were in charge of Radio City Music Hall.

[1:03:11] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, yeah. I mean, we're that's not a that's not the Helen Hayes. I mean that is a I mean I imagine your your skill set must be slightly differently when you're have to project to that kind of audience.

[1:03:21] KEN BILLINGTON: Well you mean she's projecting it's a Radio City Musical is a 6,000 CUGE and I designed the Christmas show for 27 years uh and did the Easter show and did lots of things there along with the rest of the stuff I did. But um yes, because the audience is sitting truly, and this is not an exaggeration, a half a block from the stage. Uh so it needs to be brighter, everything needs to be bolder, you know. They don't do little sequins on the costumes, they do big sequins. You know, they don't do, as I always say, you can't do a light cue where you take the cue the lights from half to full. A light cue that the audience sees is going from pink to blue. That they'll see.

[1:04:12] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[1:04:13] KEN BILLINGTON: Making the pink a little brighter is lost. So it's all about scale, and it's understanding scale. And by the way, scale for everybody, including choreography, direction, um, uh scenery, costumes, lighting, because the scale has to be seen from very far away. And so everything needs to be exaggerated. So little moving your arms left and right, you gotta put them over your head and move them left and right.

[1:04:45] Robert W. Schneider: Right.

[1:04:45] KEN BILLINGTON: You know, Bobby Longbottom, who directed the show that I did there for the Christmas show for years, totally figured it out. And his choreography was always so right for the space. Um, you know, when I started there in 79 with Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. Everyone said Beauty and the Beast was their first Broadway show, but Snow White wasn't.

[1:05:06] Robert W. Schneider: Oh yeah.

[1:05:07] KEN BILLINGTON: You know, it was there was still the old regime. So they were still doing old choreography, and they still had the old set designers and costume designers who knew the place so well. And Frank, the costume designer, they knew everything. And I learned so much from them. I learned about scale.

[1:05:34] Robert W. Schneider: I was just gonna ask you, what makes you say yes to a project?

[1:05:37] KEN BILLINGTON: But it's a question. What makes me say yes? There's an and I get offered a lot of projects. Oh, yeah. And I say no to a lot. Um things to say yes are is it writers that I admire and I want to work with? Is it a director I admire and want to work with? A choreographer, set designer. Is it a produ and then you so you have those things, and then you have the directors you always work with. So when they call you, you do their show. I have producers when they call me, I do their show.

[1:06:15] Robert W. Schneider: Um that I don't even ask.

[1:06:17] KEN BILLINGTON: Yeah. You know, or and there's some general managers that will do the same thing. Uh the only way I can usually get out of those, if I want to get out of them, is scheduling.

[1:06:28] Robert W. Schneider: Busy.

[1:06:28] KEN BILLINGTON: You know, if you're not available. So working on it, but it. But you know, ultimately is I wanted to do a show that I really like. So if I was sitting here with two scripts and one was okay and the other was sort of I thought, by the way, it doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna happen in theater. I thought was great, then I can um I might favor that one. Uh but so you know, I'd like I like to do new projects. I'm really not interested in doing revivals.

[1:06:59] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, I mean I do them because they're fun, you know. I have 42nd Street on the road at the moment, I have Annie on the road, but I've had Annie on the road for 20, 30 years. Uh I've always I've done Fiddler on the Roof three times on Broadway. So, you know, I mean it's but you take a risk with new works too. You know, Scotts World Boys is one of my favorite shows I've ever seen in my entire life. And it's great, and it was a magical piece of theater, which was not a successful hit, but yet uh poignant and deep and smart, you know.

[1:07:27] Robert W. Schneider: Successful every place else.

[1:07:28] KEN BILLINGTON: Oh, isn't that um, you know, and uh listen, I did a show two years ago with Stroman called Little Dancer. Uh in Kennedy Centered, yeah.

[1:07:36] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, and that's uh, you know, there's a producer, and we're hoping for next year. And that I was one of my favorite things I've ever done. I can't wait for that to get into town, if it gets into town, yeah. Um and there's so many factors. Uh money is sometimes a factor, availability of people is a factor, building availability.

[1:07:55] Robert W. Schneider: Right.

[1:07:56] KEN BILLINGTON: Where are we gonna put it? Theater.

[1:07:57] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[1:07:58] KEN BILLINGTON: Uh, you know, because there's uh limited buildings in New York to put shows in. But you know, I'm really looking forward to that. And um, I loved every second of that experience in Washington. Putting that together and felt that everybody involved did art.

[1:08:15] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[1:08:15] KEN BILLINGTON: We've heard that from a couple people I've talked to about that exactly. You would see the audience engulfed in tears of joy at the end of the show. And so I thought, hmm, something good here.

[1:08:27] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, yeah, it's great. Hopefully, we'll do it.

[1:08:29] KEN BILLINGTON: That's great. So what's next? What is it next for you that is concrete? We have the New Yorkers opening pretty soon for you.

[1:08:36] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, and then I'm doing Golden Apple in May here, May of 17 at uh City Center.

[1:08:41] KEN BILLINGTON: Good. Then the Paul Rednick play out at the Center Theater Group. The tour of yeah, I've got to remember everything. I should have my calendar up. Uh uh Tour of Dirty Dancing. Um then Tour of White Christmas goes out again. There's another show in the fall. I I you know I'm living this week. I can't worry about next.

[1:09:11] Robert W. Schneider: Well, when we see you next month, I'm sure this will grow by a couple of more pages.

[1:09:16] KEN BILLINGTON: So excited to see Murder on the Orient Express at the McCarter.

[1:09:19] Robert W. Schneider: I'm very excited to see.

[1:09:20] KEN BILLINGTON: Yeah, and uh and a good direct uh written by Ken Ludwig, who gave us um Crazy for You and Lend Me a Tenor show uh strong hopes that it yeah someday we'll hit midtown.

[1:09:32] Robert W. Schneider: That's wonderful. We cannot begin to thank you so much. One for sitting down with us, but also for the amazing artistry that you've given us over the years.

[1:09:40] KEN BILLINGTON: Well, it's been fun doing it.

[1:09:41] Robert W. Schneider: Good.

[1:09:42] KEN BILLINGTON: We've had fun watching it.

[1:09:43] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you.

[1:09:44] KEN BILLINGTON: Thank you, Ken. Bye everyone.

[1:09:51] Kevin David Thomas: Kevin, guess what?

[1:09:52] Robert W. Schneider: What rub?

[1:09:53] Kevin David Thomas: We now have over 50 iTunes reviews.

[1:09:59] Robert W. Schneider: Indeed.

[1:10:00] Kevin David Thomas: We are climbing those iTunes rating charts.

[1:10:03] Robert W. Schneider: That's amazing. How do we climb even higher?

[1:10:06] Kevin David Thomas: Can you take me high enough?

[1:10:10] Robert W. Schneider: Little Rock of Ages for you. Do you know I like that you took it up so high, too? You didn't leave it.

[1:10:14] Kevin David Thomas: I was gonna do climbing.

[1:10:17] Robert W. Schneider: No Robert Goulet.

[1:10:18] Kevin David Thomas: No.

[1:10:19] Robert W. Schneider: Can you take me?

[1:10:21] Kevin David Thomas: Hey enough.

[1:10:23] Robert W. Schneider: Thanks for coming out tonight.

[1:10:28] Kevin David Thomas: Thank you.

[1:10:29] Robert W. Schneider: And a little Sergio Frankie.

[1:10:30] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, a little Sergio.

[1:10:31] Robert W. Schneider: It's never over. Much like the 24 hour buffet down in the lobby of the Dunes Casino.

[1:10:40] Kevin David Thomas: Me and Sid the Caesar. Tonight's only at Dimirage.

[1:10:46] Robert W. Schneider: Sorry, sorry, sorry. Well, lovely listeners, this is where you come in. This is how we're gonna climb those iTunes rating charts.

[1:10:52] Kevin David Thomas: That's right. Lovely listeners, if you love us, would you go to iTunes? Click on the iTunes store. Search for Behind the Curtain: Broadway's Living Legends. Then click on ratings and reviews. Under the customer reviews, click write a review. Then let us know what you think from one to five stars.

[1:11:09] Robert W. Schneider: That's right. And you can leave comments too, like Kevin David Thomas is a god.

[1:11:14] Kevin David Thomas: Or Rob, who the hell is Herve Villache?

[1:11:18] Robert W. Schneider: Who who is Herve Villache?

[1:11:24] Kevin David Thomas: I fell for a scan. That wasn't even the same.

[1:11:31] Robert W. Schneider: Right, but I love him from James the Bond.

[1:11:32] Kevin David Thomas: Okay, anyway. Oh, guys, help us out. Please. Thanks, everyone.