This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] ♪ Musical number: "My Favorite Things" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[0:17] Robert W Schneider: Happy Thursday, everybody.

[0:19] Kevin David Thomas: Happy throwback Thursday, everyone. How's it going, Kev?

[0:22] Robert W Schneider: Hey Rob. How are you, buddy?

[0:24] Kevin David Thomas: Oh man, I'm tired.

[0:26] Robert W Schneider: I know you're sub.

[0:29] Kevin David Thomas: I am exhausted but exhilarated.

[0:32] Robert W Schneider: Yes, especially after last night.

[0:34] Kevin David Thomas: But the week you've had a week, I think you've had three shows at 54 Below.

[0:37] Robert W Schneider: Three in a row.

[0:39] Kevin David Thomas: Three in a row. Like what nights were they?

[0:41] Robert W Schneider: Oh my god. Well, you know, we did Ballroom on September 4th, which we've already talked about. And then, uh, Sunday night, which was the September 9th, we did an original cast reunion of Ain't Misbehavin'.

[0:52] Kevin David Thomas: I love that.

[0:53] Robert W Schneider: Oh my god, it was historic. Watching Ken Page, it was like a rock concert.

[1:00] Kevin David Thomas: Ken Page, Andre DeShields, and Charlene Woodard doing their thing was absolutely incredible.

[1:06] Robert W Schneider: Andre did the Vipers drag. Forty years later, and they all look like it was 1978.

[1:13] Kevin David Thomas: That's insane.

[1:13] Robert W Schneider: Ken Page went up on stage and started "Your Feet's Too Big" and said, "What's that run around in here?" The whole audience stood up and just gave him a huge ovation.

[1:24] Kevin David Thomas: It was watching him and Andre. Now here's the cool thing. He and Andre did "Fat and Greasy."

[1:32] Robert W Schneider: Right? Do you know "Fat and Greasy"?

[1:33] Kevin David Thomas: No.

[1:34] Robert W Schneider: Don't act. It's their big duet in Act Two.

[1:36] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, of course.

[1:37] Robert W Schneider: Because of Ken and Andre's schedule, they never rehearsed it. So the first time they did it in like 40 years or 30 years, I should say, was them doing it together on stage in front of an audience.

[1:49] Kevin David Thomas: Incredible. I'm sure it was on fire.

[1:51] Robert W Schneider: And what an audience. Lynn Ahrens, Leslie Odom Jr., so many people came out to support them. It was really, really incredible.

[2:01] Kevin David Thomas: And then last night, oh my god, Kevin, last night was Golden Rainbow.

[2:05] Robert W Schneider: We've had a big build-up because Debbie, we, you know, it's been very popular. It's been a lot of people's favorite thing.

[2:17] Kevin David Thomas: Kevin, I still can't get over this. Let me explain this once again because I'm in awe. Jen and I are trying to do more anniversary concerts at the club because we think those sell really well, which they do. And she was like, "Oh, it's the 50th anniversary of Golden Rainbow." And I'm like, "Oh yeah, sure, we'll do it." We'll do it for like one performance only because who's gonna come to this? And I'm like, "We'll do one performance and it won't even sell well, and they'll cancel it and I'll move on with my life." But I can at least say I tried.

[2:43] Robert W Schneider: We had to add a second show.

[2:48] Kevin David Thomas: Debbie Gravitz in it, whom you know how I feel about Debbie Gravitz.

[2:52] Robert W Schneider: I'm just your favorite voice.

[2:53] Kevin David Thomas: My favorite voice. She can just talk to me all day.

[2:55] Robert W Schneider: It was on the record in the interview, you guys were in the case.

[2:57] Kevin David Thomas: It was on the record.

[2:58] Robert W Schneider: I couldn't believe it.

[3:01] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[3:01] Robert W Schneider: David Lawrence, who wrote High School Musical and a Stephen Edy son, came back to play his dad's role. Looks like his dad, sounds like his dad. Richard Kind was in it. This adorable kid named Jonah Halpern, who's been in a bunch of Broadway shows. He's really, really incredible. Anyway, so last night.

[3:18] Kevin David Thomas: There's a picture of you of Richard Kind hanging on you and the other two. That picture is unbelievable. I love it so much.

[3:24] Robert W Schneider: We sold out the—no, no, I was gonna say we sold out the first show. Second show's pretty sold, right? But the first show, I'm in the elevator going down, and the Maître D says, "Oh, there's a lot of VIPs here tonight." And I'm like, "Oh, okay, sure." Probably like a club owner or something.

[3:40] Kevin David Thomas: Right.

[3:41] Robert W Schneider: Not joking, Kevin. And listeners, not joking. This is Golden Rainbow. This is the Stephen Edy show, Golden Rainbow, that nobody had ever done after Stephen Edy left the show in 1968. Nobody's ever done this show again. It was done. It was bye-bye, everybody. Because it was written for Stephen Edy. That was it. It was like a Vegas show. Front row: Jason Robert Brown, Georgia Stitt, back row: Mark Shaman, Scott Whitman.

[4:09] Kevin David Thomas: The other golden couple of Broadway.

[4:10] Robert W Schneider: VIP table, ready? VIP table: Mark Sendroff, Marilyn May, Randy Graf, Lucy Arnaz, Walter Marks at 84, who's the composer and lyricist as sharp as a whip. Of course, who was a genius. We should get him on here. Richard J. Alexander, right? All these people loved—oh, and tons of others. I'm not—there's someone, of course. Who loved Golden Rainbow? It was like a rock concert.

[4:34] Kevin David Thomas: And I gotta give a shout-out to somebody really quickly, if I may. If you know Golden Rainbow, and you can look at it on a Tony clip. Everybody said that this was the most exciting opening number they had ever seen in their lives. Because it was supposed to be like Las Vegas, and like women came down on carousel horses from the flies. Like it's very impressive, and you can watch it on YouTube.

[4:57] Robert W Schneider: But one of the things that's really cool is there's this guy, because there's all these drum fills in the middle of the music, right? Where a guy is just like dancing wildly in a mid-drift on top of slot machines. Guess who the dancer was in 1968?

[5:13] Kevin David Thomas: Larry Merritt, Lawrence Merritt, who we had on the podcast.

[5:16] Robert W Schneider: Oh, I forgot about that. So I have a friend who just graduated Penn State. His name is Jonathan Savage. You're gonna need to know this name. So I had Jonathan do the dance solos. Saw the videos. I said, "Did you see it?"

[5:30] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, I saw the videos.

[5:31] Robert W Schneider: I said, "Jonathan, I said, just so Jonathan comes out and he's wearing a mid-drift with no shirt underneath, and he does like the Jaquita lady. He does the best dancing I ever saw in my life."

[5:43] Kevin David Thomas: And by the bar, right?

[5:44] Robert W Schneider: And by the bar. Like, yep, it was amazing. The show is over, and I gotta tell you, Kevin, everybody runs up to me, and they don't want to talk about—I mean, they did talk about Debbie and David, but all they're like, "Who is this kid? Who is this kid? Who is this kid?" Richard J. Alexander grabbed me and goes, "That is a young Donna McKechney." He says, "I know a star when I see it, and that man is going to be a star."

[6:06] Kevin David Thomas: So I'm so—but you know, I want to give a little shout-out to him, and I'll tell you why. When we were doing the open—when we were rehearsing the opening number, I looked at the crowd of the ensemble kids and I said, "Who here feels really comfortable just dancing?" And nobody raised their hand except him.

[6:24] Robert W Schneider: He's like, "I'll do it for you, Rob." And look at that. Him doing me a favor just led him to a whole bunch of work because I think this kid's gonna be working like that.

[6:31] Kevin David Thomas: Well, everyone else was really dancing their face off too.

[6:34] Robert W Schneider: It was really—oh, everyone was dancing, but I mean he was half naked and dancing on a bar.

[6:38] Kevin David Thomas: Abs for days.

[6:39] Robert W Schneider: He's so proud of himself.

[6:40] Kevin David Thomas: Abs for days.

[6:41] Robert W Schneider: No, but God bless him. I have a six-pack. I'm so protective of it, I keep it in a huge layer of fat because I don't want it to, you know, be ruined at any point.

[6:51] Kevin David Thomas: Get out of here.

[6:52] Robert W Schneider: I don't have washboard abs.

[6:54] Kevin David Thomas: I can't tell that you're wearing your underwear again if you're—

[6:58] Robert W Schneider: No, I'm wearing lumberjack sweats.

[6:59] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, pants.

[7:01] Robert W Schneider: Nice kind of robot.

[7:02] Kevin David Thomas: Well, you know, I'm a classic. So anyway, so that was Golden Rainbow, lots of fun, lots of good times. If you haven't listened to it, it's great. Debbie Gravitz came out on an Edie Gourmet wig. She looked amazing in that wig.

[7:14] Robert W Schneider: And then, yeah, and it was just—it was a really fun. Richard Kind was hysterical. Like, when is he not hysterical? It was so good. We had such a nice time. And so I think—I'm not gonna say what the show is, but I think I'm gonna do another one with Debbie and David at some point.

[7:31] Kevin David Thomas: All right.

[7:31] Robert W Schneider: I'm kind of excited. I think I got a couple of ideas brewing. Anyway, so I do—I do. I've already done I Do, I Do.

[7:39] Kevin David Thomas: Last Five Years, there it is.

[7:40] Robert W Schneider: Debbie, she can sing it, she can sing it, she can do whatever the hell she wants. God love her.

[7:45] Kevin David Thomas: Oh no, that's cool. I hope they do something else that's from that time.

[7:49] Robert W Schneider: Yeah, I'll tell you when we're off the air because I can't reveal it yet, but I know they're working on the rights right now. I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. How are you? How's Legally Blonde? How was your—how was Renfair?

[8:01] Kevin David Thomas: All right, that's what I—Renfair was unbelievable.

[8:05] Robert W Schneider: All right, everybody, just to paint the picture for you this weekend. My wife and I—picture it, Sicily.

[8:10] Kevin David Thomas: Picture it, Pennsylvania.

[8:13] Robert W Schneider: The Pennsylvania Renaissance Fair. We go. This is our—we didn't go last year. Last year we went to the New York Renaissance Fair. And that was great. It was much bigger, and we didn't—we prefer the Pennsylvania one, to be honest. It's like a two-hour and forty-five-minute drive.

[8:30] Kevin David Thomas: Who are the guys you see every year?

[8:32] Robert W Schneider: Marcello?

[8:36] Kevin David Thomas: No, Don Juan and Miguel.

[8:41] Robert W Schneider: I've literally—all right. So you guys, of course, let me—some of you, first of all, half of you I've probably just lost because you're like, "What musical is this?" But, um, it's—I think I already lost them when I was giving a performance report.

[8:53] Kevin David Thomas: No, I loved your performance report. It was really good. I enjoyed that.

[8:56] Robert W Schneider: But the Pennsylvania Renfair, it's where you—it's like going to a Sleep No More or like an immersive theme park where there's no rides, but there's shows and there's acts and there's musical acts, and it's like a band of carnival people in many ways, people that travel around to do this. Every state has one, and they're all over the place.

[9:19] Kevin David Thomas: But, um, I—and so you're encouraged to dress up. And there's many different themes. This was the wizarding weekend, so there's a lot of Harry Potter freaks, and it's basically where all of the nerds go to feel like the coolest people ever.

[9:35] Robert W Schneider: And so it was—that's Broadway Con for us.

[9:38] Kevin David Thomas: Exactly. There's a lot of crossover I have found in all of these little niche worlds, but it was excellent, Rob. We ha—and so Don Juan and Miguel are one of the acts, and I actually watched them when I was a kid growing up. So this is 25 years ago I've been watching them. The same two guys. In fact, his daughter was in the act 20 years ago, and now she's grown up and you know, out of there.

[9:45] Robert W Schneider: But Don Juan and Miguel, they're the—there, and Miguel, I bought the DVD. That's a documentary about them. It's a little sad. But Miguel was like a legit actor, and he is a legit actor, you can tell he is, and he's so amazing in the show. They're funny, they're so—it's like vaudeville comedy. And then he's got a whip. It's like a whip act. So Don Juan is actually a very highly trained whip person who can whip a can in Athens, shit like that.

[10:23] Kevin David Thomas: I don't think I've ever asked you when—what made you want to go to the Renaissance fair in the beginning of all this? I know you've gone for years and years and years, but when you first went, why?

[10:32] Robert W Schneider: Well, for—it was nostalgic first. I mean, like I went when I was a kid growing up because it's something to do with kids, right? So then I remembered it, but I never dressed up or anything like that. It was just—it was just fun to see the shows and the music. And then I think Sutton got fixated on it or thought about it. I'm sure if she were here, she would be able to tell a better—some like, "Wow, how it got started." But it was just—she's in the living room.

[10:55] Kevin David Thomas: You made it sound like she's a million miles away.

[10:57] Robert W Schneider: She's in your living room.

[10:58] Kevin David Thomas: She's just in the living room. Friends over, she's hanging out.

[11:00] Robert W Schneider: But, um, I just think it was a whim. And then I thought we were—I think we were visiting my family in Pennsylvania, and we just thought, "Hey, let's go check this out." And we didn't—I did not dress up. She really wanted to dress up, and then I was sort of not dressed up at all. And this is the first year after three years that I dressed up, and let me tell you, it was a completely different game when I dressed up because then everyone kind of took us both much more seriously.

[11:24] Kevin David Thomas: And people—some people speak in accents and stuff. They're like, "Oh, huzzah!"

[11:28] Robert W Schneider: I could say huzzah all over the place.

[11:30] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, good morrow, sir. How fare thee today?

[11:33] Robert W Schneider: And you're like, "Oh, uh, that's the morning is splendid, methinks," you know, and you just act stupid. But it's so fun. I—it is. And then you drink beer and stuff throughout the day and wine and stuff, and it's—and it's very—everyone is so friendly and helpful.

[11:49] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, because they're drunk and they're holding turkey legs.

[11:54] Robert W Schneider: But you go to—what you do though is I didn't think about the news once. I didn't think about anything. I'm serious here. I mean, it really is a place you go, it's just like Sleep No More, you go to like get lost in this world, and if you kind of like just go with it, you do get lost in the world. And it's more than just a theme park or a—I don't even know what to call it, like an event space. It's just like a fun adventure you go on.

[12:16] Kevin David Thomas: I'm gonna bring you. We want to bring you so bad.

[12:18] Robert W Schneider: I'll go with you guys. I'm down for that.

[12:20] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah. And you also went to Miniature World. And then also I watched this show called CBS Sunday Morning, or as I like to call it, church. And uh, and it's just the—Is that the one that Charlie Rose was on?

[12:31] Robert W Schneider: Yeah.

[12:32] Kevin David Thomas: Uh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This was uh Charles Osgood was the host, and now uh very just chill, they always talk about the arts and it's just a feel-good show. You always end up crying at some point.

[12:44] Robert W Schneider: Mo Rock is a correspondent.

[12:45] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, Mo Rock is on there. Yeah. So what if they did a special about this like miniature village train set thing that this guy had made, and it's mammoth. I mean, you uh it's massively huge. Uh and it was started out in like the he started doing it in the early 1900s, and he finished it or he you know completed it to for the public in the early 50s. My mother actually went there in 1957, and it was it's still the exact same way that it was in the 60s, and it's just a huge diorama, a town with mountains, and you walk through the sides and they put on a show that where they dim the lights and make it all—it's it was amazing, and it was it was authentic. You watch that place was like stepping back in time to the 60s and not in an ironic way.

I mean, like it was been—it's the building, every the people who work there. I mean, it's it's it's a—it's an experience. It's in Pennsylvania. Very—it's called Road uh Roadside. Um Roadside—Roadside, that's a Jones and Schmidt musical, isn't it?

[13:40] Robert W Schneider: Actually, fun fact, that's actually got some really good music in it.

[13:43] Kevin David Thomas: Really? Um it's it's uh it's amazing. It's yeah, you know, I have a lot of those scores that were only recorded and then not really done that much, but I I love miniatures. I'm not gonna lie. I love a train.

[14:00] Robert W Schneider: Oh, oh, I can I can top that. I can top that for you. Um the I where my hometown in Thousand Oaks was right in next to it. It was a two-mile drive away from the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library. You know, I'm a political science guy, so it's a history of it. But I will say, I will say this. Every every year um they would do this. I thought it was really cool. Somebody built a miniature White House that has that is literally a room by room recreation in miniature of every room in the White House.

[14:33] Kevin David Thomas: Wow.

[14:33] Robert W Schneider: Um, with—now this is kind of cool. The guy, they have little television sets. You see, like my hand is like maybe like an inch big.

[14:41] Kevin David Thomas: Yes, everybody can see that.

[14:42] Robert W Schneider: Yeah. I'm I'm asking you to validate my fingers. Um are they not an inch apart?

[14:48] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, no, they—let me see. Yeah, yeah.

[14:50] Robert W Schneider: Right there, right there. Um, with working televisions.

[14:51] Kevin David Thomas: Working televisions.

[14:58] Robert W Schneider: And he also has this thing, which is kind of, I think it's kind of cool. They're these little mini telephones that if you call a number, the little phone rings on the little Oval Office desk. It's really—if you—I don't know if anyone else has seen this, please let me know. They used to do it at the Reagan Library all the time. It's this gorgeous, stunning miniature version of the White House, which I think is really, really cool. This is um why I don't have a lot of friends, I think. I think I just realized that in this moment.

[15:30] Kevin David Thomas: If you do both and become said by you.

[15:32] Robert W Schneider: Well, so favorite things.

[15:34] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, yeah, oh yeah. Oh, yeah, I got—well, really quickly. I saw you watched the Carol Channing thing, right?

[15:39] Robert W Schneider: You know, it was a tough watch, I must say. I I wasn't like thrilled. It wasn't—it was just weird.

[15:47] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, it's not very good.

[15:48] Robert W Schneider: It's not great.

[15:50] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, yeah, I wasn't saying like my God, it should be picked up. It was a weird one, though. Oh, but but I enjoy her like that is a place to study her real old, you know, before she was a caricature accent. I'm gonna eat a hot dog.

[16:05] Robert W Schneider: Great, Carol. Anything else?

[16:07] Kevin David Thomas: And all—no, the all really long shots, all you know, two. Well, she's so big, they don't want to like get any closer. It was just um I just—I was hoping that the last thing she would say is, I don't remember eating corn. Once again, if you don't know the corn story, look it up. Look it up.

[16:26] Robert W Schneider: Yeah, I just Google Carol Channing corn. It's the best thing ever. I don't remember eating corn. Um accent too. Yeah, there's lots of—you know what? She's the gift that keeps on giving.

[16:38] Kevin David Thomas: Indeed. Um okay, Kevin. So um why don't you go first?

[16:44] Robert W Schneider: All right, Rob, I shall. Shall we say the ball is in your court?

[16:49] Kevin David Thomas: Well, I thank you, Robert. What's the musical?

[16:52] Robert W Schneider: What's the musical?

[16:53] Kevin David Thomas: Uh no one ever plays with me.

[16:57] Robert W Schneider: Uh uh City of Angels.

[16:59] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, very good. Thank you. Oh, ooh, gosh, you really—I you know it's like when the when it's musical theater on Jeopardy, and then I feel so much pressure to get them all right. When you do that to me, I'd get like anxious, and then my mind shuts down, and then I'm—and then I panic and I'm like, oh, our listeners are listening, and then they think I'm dumb, and then oh god, it all just crashes down.

[17:16] Robert W Schneider: Okay.

[17:16] Kevin David Thomas: That was a very vulnerable moment. Thank you for sharing.

[17:19] Robert W Schneider: Sorry, everybody.

[17:20] Kevin David Thomas: Wow. Lizzie.

[17:26] Robert W Schneider: That was a deep moment there, that's a good thing.

[17:31] Kevin David Thomas: Is it really if I fucking see you singing that in a rainstorm, I'm walking the other way. Once again, I feel like Rachel Maddow, though, she opens her show and she's always like, "This time, you know, I thought we were gonna have a regular thing, and it's really special tonight." I I feel like I'm always saying, I I feel like I had to look up this up because I feel like we've done it before. It's once again something that we—I it should have been done before. It that where I'm going to a niche group of people, these are people who really listen to the music of a show, uh, who really understand what uh arranging and orchestrations and other people who don't, but this is really a book that speaks to them.

[18:06] Robert W Schneider: And it really is for the listener who appreciates um or wants to learn about all the layers and things that actually you never ever think about when you go and sit into a Broadway theater or listen to a cast recording and hear that music. Because I'm talking, of course, of the art of orchestration. Um we've often talked about how that Tony Award category is very, very difficult to define, uh at least uh to to quantify how uh one's quality is reflected and and how do you rate that, you know. Uh and this book by Steven Suskin called The Sound of Broadway Music really does that. Um it is for the mute person who's very knowledgeable of music and the person who is not knowledgeable of music. Um and uh you can get a lot out of it. It's definitely a reference book, but you can read it cover to cover and be just fine and have a great time. Um have you read it, Rob?

[18:58] Kevin David Thomas: You know what? It has always been on my list, and I have never read it. I'm ashamed to admit it.

[19:03] Robert W Schneider: That's cool. No, I it's—I just was curious. It's it's amazing. And we love Steven Suskin. We love his books, and we love—you know what he has given us in the past. He he he agreed to be a guest on this. We need to sit down and talk to him.

[19:15] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah.

[19:16] Robert W Schneider: That's that's wonderful news. He wrote a show, you know, he wrote the Show Tunes book. He wrote—he does done um gosh, he's done Opening Night uh the—he's also done the White House miniature book.

[19:27] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, Second Act Trouble.

[19:28] Robert W Schneider: I love that book. That's one of it.

[19:29] Kevin David Thomas: Yes, in the White House.

[19:30] Robert W Schneider: So many White House miniature book. Good.

[19:33] Kevin David Thomas: You're joking there.

[19:34] Robert W Schneider: Yeah, I got it. Um Is there really—is it really me?

[19:39] Kevin David Thomas: Uh yeah, so The Sound of Broadway Music. Uh I'm just looking at the title page. Forgive me, guys. That's why I was riffing. I was reading the book for the first time on air.

[19:47] Robert W Schneider: No, no, no, no. He got dead. Just like much like talking about the art of orchestration. I'm trying to figure out how to tell this little spot and make it interesting. Um, I thought you were gonna say The Artist's Way. Starting tomorrow, chapter one.

[20:03] Kevin David Thomas: No.

[20:04] Robert W Schneider: He groups the book in many different ways, and you can read it by the sections. Um he basically explains the system of how orchestrators became what they are and and and arrangers and how they got paid the way they get paid. Because basically, the secret that people don't know is that orchestrators are some of the highest paid people of any Broadway production. Uh in the golden age of Broadway, especially, they were they were making uh hand over fist and money. They worked their butts off, but they got paid because they got paid per page for a Broadway show. Uh, and they all were work uh sort of worked for one guy in a conglomerate. Uh, and so they basically had all of the work in the market.

Uh, and they just got paid huge sums of money. And every Broadway show knew, every Broadway musical knew that a major part of the budget was going to go towards orchestration, especially for new musicals, because you throw things out on the road and there's you—you have to get, you know, you have to write. And back then they hand wrote all of the parts, of course, for the full orchestra, you know.

[20:59] Kevin David Thomas: Go ahead.

[20:59] Robert W Schneider: Yeah.

[20:59] Kevin David Thomas: I was gonna say, maybe you're gonna answer this. Who's your favorite orchestrator?

[21:03] Robert W Schneider: You know, that's a really good question. I I have many. Uh, and this book covers, just to be fair, uh, the golden age, like up until about—they they go to about 1980 because people's live they lived for what—for a long time, but they really focused on you know the the more acoustic sound of orchestration versus how you can orchestrate now for the microphones. Just uh I was just want to clarify there. Uh one of my favorites is uh Ginsler, um uh Red Ginsler. Uh he did uh like uh Gypsy and the big brassy sounds, like the really big uh and and uh I'm sorry, uh not not Gypsy, uh like Bye-Bye Birdie. Like he would have like like the the jazz flutes in there, you know, like doo doo doo. You know, he—there were like four flutes.

No one ever put four flutes in the pit, you know, and and brought more a jazzier sound. Um I also love—well, Hershey Kay was—he he was uh he did West Side Story, and uh he also was a more orchestra-minded person, like Robert Russell Bennett, who was the grandfather of them all. He did Oklahoma, Carousel. And I like the more orchestral sound, like classical music, not just like follow the melody and then throw in a random, you know, fill. But I w—I like a a you know, a bigger sound, much like when—remember when you saw South Pacific at Lincoln Center, and that was, you know, that's the year that Robert Russell Bennett posthumously finally won the orchestration Tony Award. I think there was never an award back then because people couldn't, you know, quantify it. How do you—how do you say it's good? You know, today, how do you say something's, oh, that was a good orchestration?

[22:35] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[22:36] Robert W Schneider: You know, it it's tough because it is—do you just like the song, or is it because it's creative, like you know, Dear Evan Hansen? I think that isn't a fantastic orchestration with just a couple people. Is that the same? You know, how the slap, yeah, yeah, Alec Moore is just a magician when it comes to small ensembles and creating a big sound. Um, but getting back to the book, this uh uh uh this is about having bigger ensembles creating a big sound. Uh and so uh what I also appreciate about this book, so he he groups it into the 12 major uh orchestrators and he gives you a biography of all of them, and he it—it's very—he gets you know almost gossipy in a way is because some of them were alcoholics and some of them were in the closet, and you know, they—it was—it's a very fast—it's not just a very—it's not a dusty read at all. It is a very fascinating read.

[23:18] Kevin David Thomas: Do you have the book in front of you?

[23:20] Robert W Schneider: I'm looking at the title page right now. Can I ask you a question? You don't have to go into detail. Who are the twelve big ones that he lists?

[23:25] Kevin David Thomas: There we go. Yeah, I'll say them really fast because everyone knows probably their names or at least has read them before. Robert Russell Bennett, Ralph Burns.

[23:31] Robert W Schneider: Oh, I love Ralph Burns is my own.

[23:33] Kevin David Thomas: I love Ralph Burns too. He was one of the big, big first uh jazzy players, alcoholic. He struggled a lot with his—but it never affected his work. He could just—he worked his ass off. Um Chicago, Nanette are my favorites.

[23:45] Robert W Schneider: Yeah, yep. Uh Red Gensler, as I said, Hershey Kay, uh Irv Kostel, uh Philip Lang, Sid Raymond, uh Ted Royal, Eddie Sauter, Eddie Sauter, man. He was good. Hans Spieleck, War, uh, Larry Wilcox.

[24:00] Kevin David Thomas: Can you then?

[24:02] Robert W Schneider: I was gonna say I'm gonna see you tomorrow. Would you mind bringing me the book to read?

[24:03] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, of course, Rob. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm I'm uh yeah, definitely. Yeah.

[24:07] Robert W Schneider: Yours. That's amazing. Um and then they go through after that. So no, that, but that's not all. They uh they go through the—they call it valued members of the music department. And guess who he mentions and gives a little biography sketch on?

[24:21] Kevin David Thomas: Who?

[24:23] Robert W Schneider: Oh, your girlfriend. She was one of my favorite things, everybody. She was a dance music arranger, and I thought she just never—she worked for Richard Rogers, and I really believe that she never got her due. I think she was an incredible artist that perhaps because of her gender, she was not, you know.

[24:37] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and then he but he also talks about the art of orchestration.

[24:41] Kevin David Thomas: He talks about, you know, how songs are made. He lists off songs in the orchestrator, and then he tells you to play like "On the Street Where You Live" from the original cast recording of "My Fair Lady," and he'll say, listen for this, listen for this jazz thing, listen for this clarinet piece. So for the person who knows absolutely nothing about orchestration, it's a great way to learn a little bit and to know what to listen for. And what I've always thought, you know, why doesn't someone just tell me what I am supposed to hear and then I'll understand. And this is the kind of thing that really even for, I mean, I'm a music director and a musician, and yeah, whenever I read it, I get more out of it.

Perhaps one of the most interesting parts of it is the research he did. In the back, it is an alphabetical list of over 700 shows. And for almost every single one, or for most of them, he gives the orchestrator for all of them. And not only that, because not one person wrote for shows, that's another secret people don't know. It was always three or four people that worked on a Broadway show because they were so big, there's so much work. But he literally lists every song from the show and who orchestrated which songs.

[25:42] Robert W Schneider: Oh my god, that's incredible.

[25:45] Kevin David Thomas: What a great resource. Okay, I'm gonna grab it from you tomorrow if I can and pick it up and read it. It's so funny that you mentioned orchestrators because my favorite thing today has brilliant orchestrations on it.

[25:57] Robert W Schneider: Okay, bring it.

[25:59] Kevin David Thomas: If that's okay. That's our thematic way, I think of like...

[26:02] Robert W Schneider: I think I've talked about orchestration quite enough.

[26:05] Kevin David Thomas: No, I mean, okay. Now, I have to go back. We were talking about these nineties albums, these 90s concert albums that we were talking, you know, when we were talking about the last couple of weeks about how you know we love the back of the show music magazine and they got the weird folk and photos on there.

[26:26] Robert W Schneider: Yeah, I forgot to take a picture and put it in the back.

[26:28] Kevin David Thomas: Well, but there is one I listened to, and it is so good. I have not stopped listening to it since I found it on Apple Music. I am over the moon. I am just over the moon because I think the orchestrations and arrangements on this album are so much. That's the device. These are so damn good. Orchestrations by a former guest of ours, Larry Moore, and arrangements by Mark Hummel. This is a CD that came out in 1994.

[27:01] Robert W Schneider: Oh, right in the heart of it, right in the peak.

[27:03] Kevin David Thomas: Right in the peak of all of this. And the photo, it's a female solo album. The grand image on all of this is a woman against a bass, you know, an upright bass, just looking longingly. It is the wonderful Sally Mayes.

[27:24] Robert W Schneider: Sally Mayes, I was gonna say.

[27:26] Kevin David Thomas: And this album, ladies and gentlemen, oh my god, it is called "Our Private World." Sings "Our Private World." And it's Sally Mayes singing the songs of Comden and Green.

[27:26] Robert W Schneider: Oh my god.

[27:42] Kevin David Thomas: The first number is a combo. First of all, her mashups are amazing. Her mashups are first of all, and we all know Sally Mayes is, hopefully. You know, she was in the "She Loves Me" revival, and she's done all this other stuff. She's great. And she does it right now. I associate her with cabaret lately. She's like a big cabaret performer. You know, after her, you know, she's a big cabaret performer. Her opening number is "Together" from "On the Twentieth Century," mashed up with "Fireworks" from "Do Re Mi." Her "Little Bit in Love," the arrangements are so fabulous. She sings "Being Good" from "Hallelujah, Baby." You literally have to scrape me off the ceiling. You have to scrape me off the ceiling.

She does a really fun thing called the "Savage Man Medley," where she sings "Call Me Savage." "Me Savage, call me." And then she does "Primitive Man" from the "On the Town" movie, which in the "On the Town" movie is absolutely atrocious, but she makes it really fantastic. She does, you know, "Talking to Yourself," "Lonely Town," "Some Other Time," "Our Private World," it's wonderful. Now, we mentioned this last time. There's always one song, one song that they have to just, you know, change it around a little bit to put their unique spin on it. And I'm gonna say this Sally Mayes, this song is not this CD is 98% perfection. The 2% you can skip it is "I Can Cook Too."

[29:05] Robert W Schneider: Oh, it's the bongos, are there bongos?

[29:08] Kevin David Thomas: It's a languid tempo. So it's like I can't the old let's slow down the up tempo. Yeah, that's a great idea. Slow it down. Yeah, even more. And I'm like, you know what? I but I'm gonna forgive her because this opening number, and I gotta tell you, Larry's orchestrations on it are so good. They are so damn good. You're gonna listen to the opening and you're not gonna want to stop. So, ladies and gentlemen, my thing this week is Sally Mayes's "Our Private World" from 1994. From 1994. Sally Mayes from 1994. If you only got time to listen to a couple of things, the first things are "Together" and "Fireworks," and then "Being Good" from "Hallelujah, Baby," which, like I said, you legitimately need to scrape me off of the ceiling because it's so it's so damn good. It's a marvelous album. And I think I'm trying to think, I remember who the producer was on it. It was that how do you say it? Varet Sarah Band?

[30:05] Robert W Schneider: Is it Bruce Kimmel?

[30:07] Kevin David Thomas: Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bruce Kimmel was Bruce's thing. There it is. Yeah. We gotta get him. That's really great, Rob. That's a good one. Yeah, it is on Apple Music and it's on Spotify. That's how I found it. And like I said, you know, if you get the chance to see Sally Mayes in concert.

[30:24] Robert W Schneider: Wait a minute, Kevin. Hold on one second. Can you are you still?

[30:27] Kevin David Thomas: I'm here.

[30:28] Robert W Schneider: I want to just play the opening of "Together." Is everybody still here? I'm literally putting this is a first everyone. I'm putting the phone up to the mic so you can hear this. Tell me how good this is. Oh god.

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[30:55] Robert W Schneider: How great is that opening orchestration? It also feels like I just turned on like the I went the other direction with the channels, and I went to like the old and the old stations, you know.

[31:04] Kevin David Thomas: How good is that though?

[31:06] Robert W Schneider: It's great. It sounds it's a very odd. Doesn't that sound good?

[31:09] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, yeah. I want to hear it. So anyway, go take a listen to Sally May's "Our Private Worlds." I love that you just did that. She sings coming in. I because I did not realize what I was gonna get when I first listened to it, and I'm like, wait a minute. I'm like, this is really fun orchestrations. Yeah. I'm like, and I then I looked it up with Larry Moore. I wish I had known. I wish I would have listened to this when we had interviewed him. I would have asked him 90 questions. So anyway, that's mine for this week. "Our Private World," Sally Mayes, Comden and Green.

[31:41] Robert W Schneider: And mine is the Steven Suskin book, "The Sound of Broadway Music." A book of orchestrators and orchestrations.

[31:48] Kevin David Thomas: Amazing. So we will see you all. We'll hear you all. We'll feel you all.

[31:54] Robert W Schneider: Hear me. Touch me. Feel me.

[31:58] Kevin David Thomas: Is it really me?

[32:00] Robert W Schneider: Jesus, he's singing again.

[32:02] Kevin David Thomas: Is it really?

[32:05] Robert W Schneider: Why don't you play that role?

[32:06] Kevin David Thomas: Totally. I'm beautiful. Why don't you play Lizzie and I'll play Starbuck?

[32:10] Robert W Schneider: Oh, that now we should do that in a scene study class, Rob. In our scene study class, because Kevin and I are trying to sharpen our skills.

[32:17] Kevin David Thomas: I do love that song he sings. I don't I mean, I like other people singing it. The he tells the story.

[32:24] Robert W Schneider: I don't know. "110 in the Shade" is one of my all-time favorite scores. The opening. Oh gosh. Gonna be another long. Oh god, so good.

[32:36] Kevin David Thomas: I don't know it all that well.

[32:40] Robert W Schneider: Although when she bursts into "Please God, don't let me die alone." Is that what she says? Is it like I'm always like, oh my god, like we got real serious real fast.

[32:51] Kevin David Thomas: What how what happened to little red hat?

[32:54] Robert W Schneider: It's still based on "The Rainmaker," but.

[32:55] Kevin David Thomas: Is little red hat from "110 in the Shade?" Or is that "Flora the Red Menace?"

[33:01] Robert W Schneider: Red hat. Is that "110 in the Shade" or "Flora the Red Menace?"

[33:03] Kevin David Thomas: No, no, no, no. It's "110 in the Shade."

[33:05] Robert W Schneider: Thank God. But there's the juvenile roles.

[33:08] Kevin David Thomas: Well, you said to tell me I can't play those anymore.

[33:10] Robert W Schneider: Nah, I don't think those days. You could do it at the Muni, probably. 20 million feet away from everybody. We totally played the Bobby Stagard part at the Now that he's retired, those are rolls are open. So I can go in. He's gonna be what a social worker or something.

[33:25] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, he's changed. That's awesome. Change in a career path. I think if you find something else to do, that's that he finds as fulfilling is this. That's great.

[33:32] Robert W Schneider: Amen. Amen. Go ahead and pass the ammunition.

[33:36] Kevin David Thomas: Was it Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition? Frank Lesser World War II songs. Oh gosh. Hey, that's what I'm gonna sing at my cabaret. Rob Schiller sings World War II songs.

[33:49] Robert W Schneider: The wars. Somebody just suggested to me that we should do um over here. The Andrew Sisters one.

[33:56] Kevin David Thomas: That's interesting. Over here. Is it over here or over there?

[33:59] Robert W Schneider: Over here. Over there. Over here. I think it's or oh, I don't know. Actually, over somewhere. Over here, I think. Anyway, we're not doing it. Now we're doing my one-man World War II show. You know, what are some of the other world? I'll I assume we're cutting.

[34:17] Kevin David Thomas: But can you tell me what the show is gonna be?

[34:19] Robert W Schneider: Oh, yeah. I'll give no, you know what? We're still on the air. Oh, great. Because we haven't signed off yet. I hope everyone's gonna be able to do that. No, I'll give you a clue. I'll give you a clue. It's it's such an obvious clue. It's it's hold that's I just can't remember. No, it's the other show. It's it's it's a show that his dad did. It's another Steve Lawrence show.

[34:38] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, nice, which is pretty easy because the guy only did two. We've already done "Golden Rainbow."

[34:42] Robert W Schneider: Exactly. "Golden Rainbow Shine Above Me." I bet that was stuck in your head for a while. You know, you know what's stuck in my head? The "For Once in Your Life." It will it will be a night incredible. It will be a meal inedible. Take a chance for once in your life. Thank you. I love you for that. If you can see footage of it online, watch it because those kids are dancing. They're gonna be a little bit more than a little bit. That kid was like working his butt off. We have 20, we had 25 kids on that stage. Walter looked at me and goes, he goes, You have more kids on this stage than we had in the original Broadway show. It's like wall of sound, Walter. Wall of sound. Man, I want to get him. He yeah, talk about that. He's led a really interesting life. Special guy, yeah. Really interesting life.

[35:34] Kevin David Thomas: Okay. Well, that's it, because I gotta go back and listen to Sally Mayes. Kill enough time for you guys, so talk to you next week.

[35:41] Robert W Schneider: Don't be so enthusiastic about it, Kevin. And if I feel like if anyone knows anything about ribbon dancing for my World War One medley where I sing, I'll be seeing you. I want to do an interpretive dance with ribbons.

[35:54] Kevin David Thomas: Literally have a picture of you like in like tight spandex with one of those sticks with the ribbon on the end of it, and like can I'm but it's red, white, and blue. Yeah, yeah, but top like shirtless and running around a stage and doing those dive rolls like I picture you doing right now, like doing it like swirling it down and doing a tuck roll and then on your knees going up and doing another one.

[36:14] Robert W Schneider: Oh gosh, wow. I'll be seeing you in all the familiar places. And I'm in the back singing like old made from "110 in the Shade." Guys, buy tickets because no one else will. Alright, till next time.

[36:28] Kevin David Thomas: All right. Bye, buddy.

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