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[0:00] ♪ Musical number: "My Favorite Things" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[0:18] Robert W Schneider: Well, happy throwback Thursday, everybody.

[0:21] Kevin David Thomas: Hello, everybody.

[0:24] Robert W Schneider: Oh my gosh. It's uh Kevin. First of all, I haven't seen you in a couple of weeks. It's good to see you again.

[0:29] Kevin David Thomas: I know. I got real excited when we got on here. I'm really happy to see you, Rob. How are you?

[0:33] Robert W Schneider: I was going down an acting class rabbit hole.

[0:37] Kevin David Thomas: I know. I was very curious. Somebody asked me a question, and they said, "What's the difference between like Stella Adler's acting technique and Uda Hoggins' acting technique?" And I explained it to this person, and then I thought to myself, I said, "I think I'm saying this correctly." So I wanted to look, and there are uh filmed classes of all these people, Meisner, Strasberg, Uda Hoggins, Stella Adler. And so I've just been watching all of them teach, and it's taught me one thing, which is nobody really knows anything. They're all making it up, right? They're all about how to describe something that you actually cannot describe. You actually cannot describe what somebody does in their process. We've asked it with actors in our interviews. Nobody can give us a straight answer. Nobody can tell us.

[1:23] Robert W Schneider: No, and it's so fascinating. The other thing I realized was that many of these videos were made in the 80s and 90s, and uh, if any of the stuff that was happening in those acting classes was happening today, cancelled beyond belief. I was watching a scene in a Stella Adler class, and maybe I'll post this if I can, um, in which it's the last scene of Act Two of All My Sons. It's the father, it's the son confronting the father, being like, "You knew that you shipped off airplane parts and you killed people, and you killed my boys." It's a very emotional scene. These two actors are doing it. And Stella Adler stops the guy playing the son and she goes, "Stop. Do you want to hit him?" And he's like, "Yes." And she goes, "Hit him." Oh my God. And these two actors just start literally without any choreography, just start beating the crap out of one another. And I was like, if this was happening in 2021...

[2:24] Kevin David Thomas: Isn't Stella Adler also the one who Lou Stadlin told us that like went to her like bedroom and like walked in the room and like, yeah. And she kind of was like, "Come here, young man." She's cute. You can see that in the documentary. All the men, when they're done with this scene, walk over to her and kiss her hand. It's like meeting royalty. So anyway, what I wanted to ask, what I wanted to ask at like nine to five, at a girl. What I wanted to ask you though, Kevin, was when you were in acting classes, did you ever have any sort of intense acting classes or anything where you were like, "What are they making us do?"

[2:59] Kevin David Thomas: You know, it's funny when you say that I immediately think of that uh documentary on Stage Door where they actually go in and they show Stage Door Manor, you know, with the camp and they show the acting class and like them rolling around on the ground in those extreme exercises. We never did anything like that. I think of um, I remember uh the link ladder technique. We did voice and speech and stuff, but I it was okay. But the lady who retired the year after she taught our class, so she was, you know, sort of at the end of her lovely career. Um, but I remember having to paint the wall. We were in the lobby of the theater, it was where the class was held, and we had to like, I just remember walking around having to go, "Ha ha!"

I can't be so loud, I'm gonna wake up my son. Oh painting, you know, if you've done the technique, and I don't I can't do it because I don't remember it, and it wasn't even taught that well. Double touch, ha ha. And we're like trying to paint the wall with our voices, you know. And I remember thinking this, I'm sure if this was done in a really effective way, this would be very uh believable. But right now we are laughing our asses off and she can't hear us.

[4:00] Robert W Schneider: That's from the Oh, you know what I want to watch? Um I don't I'm not usually into a lot of the stuff online, uh the stuff online, listen to me. But look a lot of the concerts. I just think I don't know, I'm more into the live experience, which is yeah, yeah, yeah. But there are two this weekend that I'm kind of like excited about. One of them is uh, you know, there's this Rent reunion uh on New York Theater Workshop has, you know, for like 20 or 25 bucks. So I want to watch that. I'm excited about that. Uh there are a lot of old footage I think they're gonna include. Uh and you remember the musical by Michel Legrand called Amor?

[4:30] Kevin David Thomas: Yes, very well.

[4:33] Robert W Schneider: Right. I saw it back in the day in 2003, I want to say. Um Norm Lewis was in it, um, Melissa Erico, um, Malcolm Getz. Who we interviewed, Malcolm Getz, yeah. Well, they're doing a concert. I saw the Zoom concert of it, uh, you know, with uh Jesse Mueller and a bunch of great people in it. Uh and I actually was like, this looks great. I would I don't know, I think I would be, you know, why not? So I think I'm gonna check that out uh this week. I'm very excited. And it's live. I think it's live too. I think they're actually being very bold. If it actually is live, I would love to know anyone. But uh they're making the bold choice of saying that you know if you get your tickets for eight o'clock, you've got to see it at you know, eight o'clock on Friday. So uh I think that's wonderful. I love that show. It's got a stunning score, so I'm so excited to rebuild it.

[5:16] Kevin David Thomas: It's very lush.

[5:17] Robert W Schneider: Oh, it is. It is. Michelle Legrand, one of the best, one of the absolute best.

[5:22] Kevin David Thomas: Well, guess what? My favorite thing, I gotta tell you, it's not really obscure, Rob. The rules are you're supposed to we're supposed to do things that people don't know. But here's the deal. If you are someone who is uh perhaps maybe graduated from college after the year 2000, you might not be as appreciative of this musical uh as you should be. And if I may go first, my favorite thing is a movie musical that I will confess to you listeners, um, that I had written off. In fact, I had written off this entire musical. I feel like I'm at like a therapy session right now, but I really want to be honest with everybody. Um I was wrong, completely wrong. I was totally wrong. I thought I actually had made multiple judgments about this show.

I had made fun of it. I had said, "Oh, how could this other there's another very popular show that I always said should have won the Tony Award that year and it didn't." It's so stupid that it didn't win the Tony Award that year. It's because the other show is way more complex and smarter and more interesting.

[6:24] Kevin David Thomas: Uh and uh the musical that I wish to celebrate today, and more specifically the movie made about this musical, which is going to be a revival next year, is The Music Man. Rob, I literally have come to when I say love The Music Man, I mean that I have watched the movie, which is the favorite thing, the uh The Music Man movie starring Robert Preston directed and produced by Morton DeCosta, who did the original Broadway. I am I I was sobbing at the end of this movie. I then had to read the libretto, got to the end of the libretto, sobbing at the end of the libretto, hook, line and sinker, fully did not realize, and I know that and I say this is for people who graduated after 2000 because there's a certain generation that's looking at me like, "Duh, Kevin, welcome.

Hello, where have you been?" Like, this is exactly how this show is. And that's why it's a favorite thing, is because I want a generation of people that or other people or people like me who are like wrote it off and just thought it was just some stupid little country, you know, Midwestern 50s musical that was about Iowa and Cedar City, which is where Meredith Wilson is from, and it was just some silly thing. And it's actually way more complex than that. He kind of in a way deconstructs the musical a little bit, puts it back together.

[7:39] Kevin David Thomas: Uh there's such great the scenes are stunning. Uh in the movie, um, you know, you have original Broadway members, uh, in addition to the original director, um, and everybody knows this, but you have, you know, like you had the there's a barbershop quartet, the Buffalo Bills, they are in the movie. Uh Mrs. Peru, the mother of Marian, uh Pert Kelton, she's in the movie. Um, Shirley Jones, a very pregnant Shirley Jones, of course, is in the movie. Uh, and then the great Robert Preston, you guys, Robert Preston, um, is so unbelievably good. I know that this is old news, but it is watching this movie is like watching a movie that was made yesterday to me. I don't know, Rob. It was the scenes with him and Buddy Hackett.

Buddy, Buddy Hackett, I I you guys, I would watch the scenes and I would rewind them, and I think I watched them four times because I'd laugh so hard. Hermione Gingold when she simply says, "It's a smuddy book." There's this one part where she's just like, she pauses and I have it videoed. I thought I was gonna send it to you because I was so it's a smuddy book. You guys, it's it's the it's so funny.

[8:42] Kevin David Thomas: And the thing about it is it makes fun of musical theater, and yet the actors, the people in it, have no idea. They're like fighting for their lives. So it is so touching when it all comes together, and yet it's the way you can see good musical theater is when everyone like breaks all of the rules of society and like all of a sudden the whole town is singing to Robert Preston at the end of the opening number. That doesn't make any sense at all, and goes back to normal after the applause. But yet in the world that you set up those rules and you break them, it I don't know, it proved to me that you can do that and find heart and tell a story. And I didn't I'd never seen it really like that before, Rob. And so I'm going on and on but to prove how wrong I was thinking that West Side Story should have won the Tony Award in 1957. Because no, The Music Man is like so unbelievable.

[9:33] Kevin David Thomas: And I just want to give a little shout out, a little fun fact about The Music Man, which is worth remembering, uh, is that The Music Man towards the end of its run the last year had the dubious um uh title uh you know uh historical record of having the first female conductor be full-time in the pit. Uh Miss Eliza Redfield. Uh she was the first uh woman to be a full-time conductor at an orchestra on Broadway, which seems entirely too late uh in the 1950s to do that, or maybe it was 1960 by then, but uh really worthy nonetheless, and I think that's a really cool fun fact. Um, but uh, you know, uh I just I I I and this idea that like Meredith Wilson spent 10 years uh working on this, he had been a band teacher, he had lived in Iowa, he had come to New York, been a song plug, all this, but he just kept toiling away at this one show his whole you know for 10 years without having any other major, you know, record to show, and then coming out with this big hit. I just think that's uh it's a really cool wild success story, and uh that most of us know, but some of us maybe don't know and and should remind ourselves.

[10:37] Kevin David Thomas: So a way a good way to do that is please go watch The Music Man, the original movie, not the Matthew Broderick and Chris Chenworth, although that is quite lovely, but you should watch Robert Preston because the man could is like a uh teaches a master class on acting, I think. Uh and Robert, I would love to know like what you think of The Music Man. Uh is it something that you appreciate? Do you love?

[10:58] Robert W Schneider: I do you know it? I think it's one of the greatest musicals ever written. I am ecstatic that you're talking about it. I am so excited that it's supposed to be coming back to Broadway. I think it is a brilliant show.

[11:12] Kevin David Thomas: I'm going to be honest, if someone said to me, "Would you rather sit through The Music Man or West Side Story?" I would say, "Take me to River City, Iowa right now."

[11:18] Robert W Schneider: Now I will say the same thing, Rob. The Music Man to me is one of those shows that I think has suffered from you ever make a copy of something and then you make a copy of the copy and a copy of the copy of the copy of the copy. So by the way, it's like playing the game telephone, the game telephone you play as kids in a circle and you say this phrase and it gets morphed. I think that's the problem that people have with The Music Man, which is I think they've seen so many inadequate high school community theater productions of it. And I'll be honest with you, some you know, professional productions of it as well that I've seen that are not the same thing. I'm watching the bootleg right now of a professional production that it's not so wonderful.

[11:58] Kevin David Thomas: Okay.

[11:58] Robert W Schneider: Um and this is a show which is brilliant, first of all, it's brilliantly constructed. That's number one. It's absolutely brilliant. The humor, Rob, the humor in it is like the humor, but how can you not how can you not burst into tears? And I'm gonna I get choked up every time I think about it. When uh Winthrop, who doesn't talk, who's ashamed to express himself, gets confidence for the first time, and he picks up the instrument.

[12:32] Kevin David Thomas: I'm crying now.

[12:33] Robert W Schneider: It's not even not even seeing it. I'm crying now.

[12:35] Kevin David Thomas: I know, I know, me too.

[12:39] Robert W Schneider: What The Music Man does brilliantly, and I think this is what people forget, people go, "Oh, it's about they've got the instruments and they march down the street, isn't it fun? It's America." And it's about three individuals who society has said we don't want anything to do with you. And that's Harold, that's Marion, and that's Winthrop. And society says, "We don't want you." And on one day, these three people find each other. And I think there is nothing more beautiful than that.

[13:18] Kevin David Thomas: That's that, you know, Marion's supposed to be this, you know, she's this, you know, she's the soprano, and she's, you know, she's not this and she's not that. No, this is a woman who obviously looked at society and said, "Fuck you." I'm not like those rules. I don't follow these rules. And society has shunned her. And I think they also send it up so brilliantly in "Iowa Stubborn," which is where this community that says we're close and we're not going to do anything to help you. And yes, it's funny, but deep down it's telling you this is the world you're about to. Yeah, that's good exposition right there. So I am a huge fan of "The Music Man." I think it's a show that does not get the credit it deserves.

I'm going to be honest with you, I am more invested in Harold and Marion's storyline than I am with Tony and Maria. Harold and Marion, they have to work at it because they also have to let their guards down. And you're hoping that these people are gonna—who's gonna be the first to admit that they're actually in love with one another? Tony and Maria, they just look at each other and they're like, "Let's do this." Well, as we and I were discussing before we got on air, like they were teenagers, and teenagers are so hot-blooded and all of that. But these Marion and Harold, they've lived, they're a little older, they're set in their ways, and then they change despite that, you know what I mean? Like, and it's so—and what struck me, you know, is that it was so believable when it's done well, when you really honor what's in the work there. But it's so heartbreaking and beautiful to, you know, and I was—it was unexpected, and it's easy to do that poorly, I think.

[15:05] Robert W Schneider: Absolutely, because it could be very cheesy and not filled out, and you have to have the depth of what's going on there filled out. And that is why I was completely wrong. Yeah, you're right, Rob. And I'm thankful to know that you like it. So I—and I think that footbridge scene where they go where they meet and they go until there was you is such a brilliantly beautifully constructed example of scene going into song. Look at this show again. It's a wonderful show. I'm so happy that you mentioned it because I think it is a show that doesn't get the credit that it deserves. And the movie with Robert Preston and Shirley Jones, just fabulous.

[15:31] Kevin David Thomas: Oh, it's—and that's—and so that would you check that movie out because that's the easiest way in. And know that the movie, for you know, in a time when you know, you—for every "Paint Your Wagon" that existed, there was every once in a while a movie that was actually very faithful to the original stage version. And this one, except for the rearranging of one of this, I think "Shapoopy" is in a different spot, but there's—and they rewrote "My White Knight" as a different melody and a different song, but they retained the beginning. But other than that, it's the dial. I read the script, I watched it, it's all very much the same. And it's gosh, it's so cool to see it translate so beautifully. And to see Robert Preston.

I mean, come on, everybody. Like, it's legendary. Such a brilliant actor, such a brilliant actor. And so brilliant, you don't even care that he's not singing. He and Shirley Jones are very sexy together, and you can feel a heat between the two of them.

[16:23] Kevin David Thomas: It is like a lot of things. I think it's a sex thing. I think it's a sexy. And I've seen a lot of productions where Harold, if Harold and Marion don't have any chemistry, then there really is no point to anything. And if he's not charming, like in nature, like he has to be so charismatic. It's so—I'm—I imagine it must be very hard to cast a Harold Hill because he has to—there's such requirements there. I would love to see Denzel Washington play Harold Hill.

[16:44] Robert W Schneider: I would love to see play Harold Hill.

[16:46] Kevin David Thomas: And people are like, oh, he's too old.

[16:48] Robert W Schneider: And I'm like, I don't know, I don't think so. I think he'd be great.

[16:51] Kevin David Thomas: Kevin Klein.

[16:52] Robert W Schneider: Uh no, I'm sure he would be brilliant.

[16:57] Robert W Schneider: Oh, isn't that interesting? He is so charming, and when he's on stage, you can't take your eyes off of him.

[17:04] Kevin David Thomas: Really, I've never seen him live.

[17:05] Robert W Schneider: Oh, he's—yeah. It has nothing to do with it when you look at him on stage, it's not like, "Oh, that's a film actor," and that's why I'm gravitating towards him. There is something about him that you're like, "I cannot take my eyes off of you." So it's—I'm so happy you brought it up. I love the show, and I cannot wait to—maybe I'll go watch it again tonight.

[17:28] Kevin David Thomas: I felt a little like I was cheating in not having something more obscure, but I just thought it was worth remembering. Rob, a favorite thing, my friend.

[17:37] Robert W Schneider: Well, mine in some ways is a little bit related to yours, and to the idea of I am late to this party. And I'm so—to quote Sally in "Follies," I'm so glad I came. This party, also what Lauren Bacall said to Harry Guardino. But that's—a lot of people—I like literally was trying to come up with who it was that really said that in the double entendre. Well done. Thank you so much. I was introduced to this by a listener of ours, and we were talking about an actress who I have seen on stage and I like on stage, and then he said, "Well, you've seen her YouTube videos, haven't you?" And I said, "No, I have not." And he introduced me to about 25 different videos of this performer. And I am so madly in love with her now. And I want to be her best friend. I don't think she will want to be my best friend, but I want to be her best friend. The actress is Jackie Hoffman.

[18:36] Kevin David Thomas: Oh my god, Rob.

[18:37] Robert W Schneider: And the videos, folks, are just—you will post the link, but all you have to do is just type in "The Addams Family Home Movies." So when "The Addams Family" was out on Broadway in 2010, if you'll remember, Jackie Hoffman played Grandma, and Broadway.com had the bright idea—back when everything was so new. Remember, like the "Title of Show" show? Back when everything was so, so new to put on the internet, the intraweb. And they said, "We'll give you a video camera and you do a vlog every couple of weeks, and we'll post it on Broadway.com."

[19:18] Kevin David Thomas: Rob, I don't know if you ever had a relative like this. Did you ever have like your mom and dad were doing home movies at like a family barbecue at Christmas and they had to go do something? So they would give the camera to like Aunt Shirley, who was always drunk, and then later on they would watch to see what Aunt Shirley had taped, and they're like, "What is she doing?" Like, you know, going up to like the five-year-old being like, "You ever smoked? You want to smoke?" And you're like, "Shirley, what are you doing?" This is—these are these videos. What Jackie Hoffman has done, they've given her a camera, they've given her carte blanche and freedom to interview everyone involved with "The Addams Family." And she is hysterical. She's absolutely hysterical.

[20:02] Robert W Schneider: She has a running gripe that the fact that they won't let her sell her "Jackie Hoffman Live at Joe's Pub" CDs in the lobby. And it's consistently on everyone about that. She demands that there's a chaise lounge in her dressing room that doesn't fit. And then she has everyone sit in the chaise lounge and it's like, "Why can't I fit into this?" It's hysterical. Across the street from her dressing room window is "Come Fly Away." Remember the Sinatra show?

[20:27] Kevin David Thomas: Of course.

[20:28] Robert W Schneider: And she bags on this show in every single video. She does voices of tour groups outside waiting to get in to "Come Fly Away." She is so funny and so sassy. It is one of the funniest things I've ever seen. And so, once again, folks, she has about 25 or 26 videos. They're about like 15 to 20 minutes long, and they will make your sides split with laughter. She's upset that they won't let her perform at the Tony Awards. She's upset that they don't sell Grandma merchandise in the lobby. She's upset—she's upset about everything.

[21:03] Kevin David Thomas: At the end of each video, though, she reads fan mail.

[21:07] Robert W Schneider: And she sings a little song, and it goes like this: "Fan mail, fan mail, Jackie's got fan mail." It's from someone in Colorado. And like then she'll do a funny line. My favorite one though is after she finally gets her chaise, and she'll go, "Fan mail, fan mail, Jackie's got fan mail. Now I'm on a chaise." It makes me laugh so hard. She interviews everybody. She is a delight. She reads fan mail with people asking for them to have Nathan Lane or Bebe Neuwirth sign the playbills they're sending. So they're making her do intern work. She's not pleased about that. She reads every single fan mail to filth. She's just not having it. I have—when I have a bad day, I watch these things and I cannot stop laughing.

So once again, mine this week, and I am so late to this party, it's Jackie Hoffman's "Addams Family Home Movies." She is a fucking riot. She is a national treasure. And I hope to God I get to meet her one day in person and bow to her brilliance. She's a genius. And these videos just proved it. Like I said, I had seen her in "Hairspray" and was like, "Oh, she's funny." Oh yeah, I saw her in "Addams Family." Yeah, she's funny. But this, I just had no idea.

[22:30] Kevin David Thomas: I just quite a Twitter presence. You know, she's—oh yeah, she's known for her quips on there. And she's a lot of fun. And she's—boy, what a spirit? There's a lot there, and I'm gonna watch those tonight, Rob. I can't wait.

[22:45] Robert W Schneider: That's the—we just had to—Jackie Hoffman, the "Addams Family Chronicles."

[22:50] Kevin David Thomas: Yeah, yeah. If you click into our description today, folks, I'll put a link there, but it's the "Addams Family Home Movies," Jackie Hoffman, and like I said, there's like about 25. You can literally jump into anyone and you will be laughing hysterically. She also takes the vlog to Disney World when she goes to Disney World for her vacation. It has nothing to do with "The Addams Family." She is so funny, and as she makes fun of all the people going to see "Come Fly Away," and then it switches over to Donny and Marie. Then it switches over to "Follies." She's angry they won't let her sell her CD in the lobby.

[23:25] Robert W Schneider: Oh my god.

[23:26] Kevin David Thomas: The anger that she's not allowed—that they're not gonna perform on the Tony Awards. She reads "American Idiot" to filth, she reads "Memphis" to filth. I know that "RuPaul's Drag Race" has lots of people throwing shade on that, but the queen of this, I think, is the wonderful Jackie Hoffman. So I am late to this party, but once again, I am so glad I came.

[23:46] Robert W Schneider: Oh, wonderful. And I too, late to the party with "The Music Man." Boy, go check out that movie or listen to that cast recording. But you should see the show, definitely, or listen to the show. And Jackie should play the mayor's wife in some production.

[23:59] Kevin David Thomas: Oh my gosh. I'm sure she has like a thing.

[24:05] Robert W Schneider: Right? Is that her minor? Gingold, right? But I like when it's a smutted book. It's when the—it's the "Pick-a-Little" ladies, and they're like "Reveille, Chausson." She goes, she's—it's such—it's a good—and I think who is it? Paul Ford who plays Mayor Shin?

[24:24] Kevin David Thomas: Yep, and Mary Wicks.

[24:25] Robert W Schneider: Yep, and Mary Wicks is in there. She's one of those ladies.

[24:28] Kevin David Thomas: Uh yeah, Paul Ford.

[24:29] Robert W Schneider: Um, and oh my gosh, there—it's just such a great—but Buddy Hackett, Rob, that's the one who really—I had no—I, you know, I know I had a ball, I know him from TV. I had never really seen though—that's kind of—I just laughed. I howled laughing by myself.

[24:48] Kevin David Thomas: I won't tell you the—I won't tell you who said it because I don't want to put them on the spot, but I know we know somebody who played the Buddy Hackett role in a production of "The Music Man" at a very prestigious theater, and the director I think was a little pretentious, and he said, you know, "This is a very serious show, despite all of its levity and comedy, and we must have objectives and we must play objectives so we don't play his style." And he looked at the actor playing Marcellus and he said, "In 'Shapoopy,' what is your objective?" And the actor said, "To Shapoop."

[25:21] Robert W Schneider: I won't say who that actor is. We've had him on the show a couple of times. He's a great guy.

[25:24] Kevin David Thomas: I'd like to guess, I think I know, but I love to—

[25:28] Robert W Schneider: Yeah, Buddy Hackett is funny.

[25:29] Kevin David Thomas: Buddy Hackett is funny.

[25:30] Robert W Schneider: He's no Jackie Hoffman, that's for sure.

[25:33] Kevin David Thomas: There you go.

[25:34] Robert W Schneider: So "The Music Man," folks, it's Jackie Hoffman.

[25:37] Kevin David Thomas: Yep, check out the home videos.

[25:39] Robert W Schneider: Yeah, awesome.

[25:40] Kevin David Thomas: All right. So that's—that's that.

[25:42] Robert W Schneider: All right, pal.

[25:43] Kevin David Thomas: Um, bye everybody. Uh, have a great weekend.

[25:47] Robert W Schneider: You too.

[25:48] Kevin David Thomas: Thanks.

[25:48] Robert W Schneider: Bye.

[25:49] Kevin David Thomas: Wait, are we—No, I think I was done. I like couldn't remember if we were recording or if we were like saying goodbye to me.

[25:55] Robert W Schneider: I thought you were saying goodbye to me.

[25:56] Kevin David Thomas: And I thought I'd—

[25:56] Robert W Schneider: Oh, I thought you were saying you were saying goodbye to the listener, right?

[26:01] Kevin David Thomas: Yes, of course.

[26:01] Robert W Schneider: No, bye, listeners.

[26:06] Kevin David Thomas: Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, bright copper kettles, and warm woolen mittens, brown paper packages tied up with strings.

[26:17] Robert W Schneider: These are a few of my favorite things.

[26:26] Kevin David Thomas: These are a few of my favorite things.