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[0:32] Lauren Van Hemert: Welcome to Beltline to Broadway!

[0:41] Lauren Van Hemert: This is the Beltline to Broadway podcast. I'm Lauren Van Hemert, your host, and on this episode, I'm chatting with David zum Brunnen and J. Mardrice Henderson. The pair first portrayed literary giants Paul Green and Richard Wright, respectively, on stage in the play Native. Now they are reprising those roles in the independent award-winning film, The Problem of the Hero. The film chronicles an impasse between Richard Wright and Paul Green on the eve of Wright's play Native Son opening on Broadway. The clash between these two characters, much like the interview you're about to hear, leads into a courageous conversation about racism, patriotism, and friendship.

[1:38] Lauren Van Hemert: Before we get into the film, I really want to talk about Richard Wright's novel Native Son. According to the ACLU, this novel is a novel that is frequently challenged and banned. Why is this piece of literature so significant?

[1:57] J. Mardrice Henderson: Well, from our perspective, I think it's the story itself is so groundbreaking, especially for the time that it was written in. Like we weren't hearing stories like that in the 1940s. We were on the brink of war. It's almost reminiscent of where we are now, unfortunately. But that's a whole nother conversation. But for sure, that book was it woke people up in a way that they weren't ready probably to be woken up just yet. And I know "woke" is a whole thing now, but I think it really stirred the pot until it was out there, and then people were like, "Wait, what is this? Let's take a look at what this mirror is holding up to us as a society." And the struggle that Bigger Thomas goes through is something that we still see and probably will for everybody see, and especially in our nation, unfortunately.

There's a whole systematic approach to that, of why those certain cast systems are still in place. But just like the Color Purple almost, we're seeing adaptations of this story because it's still relevant to today. We were seeing plays and films about the story of Bigger Thomas and the struggles that he went through and what ultimately led to him doing what he did.

[3:18] J. Mardrice Henderson: And I must say that I was only introduced to this story upon getting the booking for the role. I had never heard of Richard Wright, had never heard of Native Son. And so when David and Serena and EBZB said yes, I was like, "Oh, I really have to do this now." I had to learn who this guy is. And then once I was introduced to him, I was like, "Oh, okay, this is what we're doing." And I really think that I have been enriched as an artist and as a creative and as a storyteller, having experienced this story and the works of Richard Wright.

[3:54] Lauren Van Hemert: When Richard Wright originally published this novel, do you think his intended audience was a white audience to kind of wake people up?

[4:06] J. Mardrice Henderson: I think the audience that he wanted was the audience that he got. And we kind of mentioned that in Ian's work of how even Baker's daughters could read and weep over and feel good about it. This was in reference to his previous book, Uncle Tom's Children, which is a collection of stories. And so he had built an audience, and I think because he had built that audience, that audience came to this book, and he wanted to maybe—I don't want to say spit in the face of that. Sounds way too brutal. Which Native Son is. But I think he wanted to say that now that you know who I am, I want to show you what's really inside of me, right? And I think a lot of times we come to the stage or we come to the forefront a certain way because we have to put on a certain face, especially for people who are of color or minorities.

We have to, in order to be seen, we have to somehow code switch. And once we're seen, it's like, "Hey, this is what's really going on, and how can you deal with this? You've built this relationship with me, and now I can show you my true self or my true story, and how are you going to handle that?" I think there were some semblances of that from my perspective. What do you think, David?

[5:22] David zum Brunnen: I don't mind saying that the stage play Native, Native Son, the novel, the play, Ian's play, the Native, and the play written by Richard Wright, The Problem of the Hero, which has never been published, at least to this point in time, and the film, The Problem of the Hero, are still being processed by these two individuals you're talking to right now, and you. Well, so it's three individuals, still processing, the crew, the core creative team, anybody who was on the set, and I say it all the time, say it again, this conversation, just like every other interview we've done, just like every post-screening discussion, just like every post-performance discussion of the play, this conversation is mirroring every other conversation we had.

The conversations on set, every day. You know, we had some folks who were part of the entire principal shoot and some of the location shoots, the pickups, you know, and other various shots that we had to get exteriors. But if you were so-called, it's what we sometimes call being helicoptered in as a day player for a couple of days, or if you were on crew and you were in there, or we had some interns from Duke and some other colleges that came in for a few days and then they were gone, you would come onto the set and you would start seeing either the scripted scene or being shot being discussed when something happens in the film or a certain element, and people would be picking up on what was going on, not having any background whatsoever about this film, this topic, the subject matter, the content, and you would see the look in their faces, and sometimes they just said outright, "What is going on here?

What is this film about?" Right? And the conversations would start from there. And then they'd see the scene play out. And they were thinking, "So what happens next?" And then at lunch break or other breaks, I mean, Josh can speak to this as well, but there were the conversations just kept on going. And I've said it again, I'm sorry to repeat myself, but I've said it many times, and I'll say it again. Those conversations were ongoing then, and they still are.

[7:50] David zum Brunnen: Okay. So the fact that you're processing right now, okay, black film, white film, universal film, you know, what does that mean? It means a whole bunch of different things. So I get the context, you know, but I'm not sure I would have understood that had we not taken on the play in this film, this project over the last 13 years. Okay. And particularly in these times when we see Native Son and some of the topics that we address, or any kind of publications. I mean, I can tell you right now, I believe there were a couple of, if not one, maybe two. I don't know if it was Native Son or not, but I know for a fact that at least one of Richard Wright's novels was pulled from the shelves when they were culling books from the Naval Academy's library.

Richard Wright was one of them that was one of the first ones out, okay? And I know that for a fact. I don't know which one, but I know at least one, maybe more. There's a reason why those books are being pulled, and why school systems and other people are, I mean, right in here in North Carolina, we're having the DEI, the quote-unquote DEI being discussed in our legislature to be banned in certain public buildings or public discourse under the auspices of public governance. You know, those conversations, there's a reason why those are going on now, and they've been going on because it makes some people really uncomfortable because they don't have control, okay. And Richard Wright's Native Son, and I'm not trying to elevate ourselves to that level, but in our efforts in this piece, both the play and the film, we were really trying to encourage people to be uncomfortable, embrace that discomfort, and maybe ask in their reflections, "What are you afraid of when we have these conversations?

What are you afraid of?" And you ask that a few more times to yourself, and you answer it each time, and you start to discover some of the real core things that you're afraid of. And some of it is losing control of what you've had control before, and maybe often to others.

[10:07] David zum Brunnen: Yeah, I was just waiting for Josh to say, you know, "I've never heard of Richard Wright. I never read the book until I took on this project." It's important that he say that, because at the same time, all that stuff I'm talking about, there are books that are being banned, content is being banned for a reason. Because Josh, as a black male, as an adult black male, and those before him have encountered this, if not from the start of recorded history, from the dawn of man, and are still dealing with it, and we will see it for unforeseen generations, unseen generations, as far as I can tell from what we're going through now. So I thought it was important for Josh to speak first because this film, this play, this project over the last thirteen, almost thirteen years has been about embracing the discomfort. And you mentioned the banned books, so I will say that this book is like number 71 on the list of most challenged books in the United States. So it's a testament to the power of this man's words.

[11:23] David zum Brunnen: Yeah. Paul Green says it in the film, and they both say it. Well, Paul says it first, I believe, I think they both say it at some point, in the play, that the goal is to reach a white audience.

[11:38] J. Mardrice Henderson: And in many respects, you could make an argument to say that, yeah, this project is all about reaching white audiences. But I'm not speaking for Richard Wright, because I think in my own reflections to this point, I think he was trying to reach a universal audience. I know there was a show that we did in high school once, and there was a limited number of books of Native Son at that school's library, but after our performance, all those books were checked out of the library by those students because they were intrigued and wanted to know more about what the show that they had just watched was all about. So yeah, I think there were like seven books in the library of Native Son, and as Josh said, by the time the show was done, at the end of the day, they were all gone.

From what I understand, Wright approached Paul Green about helping him adapt this for the stage. Paul Green is a Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright. What was the relationship between these two men prior to this collaboration? Paul, particularly because of his social justice advocacy and his activism and his interest here in North Carolina and beyond, and because of the content that he had written about the African American experience in the South as they knew it to that time, was quite prominent. And I'll let Josh allude to the production in Chicago. But they were acquainted with each other's work, okay, and had a high regard for one another. I'm not sure that it was solely just Richard that reached out to Paul.

Paul had been brought to his attention, Native Son had been brought to his attention, and he was interested in it as well. So it was a mutual gravitation towards one another, with Richard initiating much of it. But it was definitely a mutual appreciation, and I think that's why the friendship developed so quickly and strongly in the fashion that it did.

[13:52] David zum Brunnen: Yeah, for sure. I think we allude to it in both the stage production as well as in the film, that these were two contemporaries, literary contemporaries. They were aware of each other's work. Richard mentions how he tried to put up Hunter the Rising Sun and how that didn't go as successfully as he had hoped because of challenges with the cast. But because I think he was cognizant of the fact that Mr. Green, I can't call him Paul, that Mr. Green was fighting a similar fight, but they had maybe a common goal or common enemy, but they had different perspectives. And I think Richard saw the passion that Mr. Green had, and so that drew them together to collaborate on this piece. But with any collaboration, you know, things can go different ways, and not to spoiler alert, not to give a spoiler, but it takes a turn at some point. But I think the groundwork or the foundation of this collaboration comes from a mutual respect and a mutual friendship that these two men had developed between each other.

[15:08] J. Mardrice Henderson: Well, and their relationship, as chronicled in the film, is challenged, and I think what it speaks to, especially on these big commercial stages like Broadway, is the commercialization of art. How do you create something commercial and maintain artistic integrity? And the other thing I love about the film, no one's taking sides. There is no black and white. There is no right or wrong. You really leave it up to your audience to decide. The characterization, the character study of this is fascinating on screen.

[16:06] David zum Brunnen: You both played these roles on stage. Does the acting change? I will say that J. Mardrice and I started Ian's play back in 2017. So from 2017 to 2019, well, we started rehearsals in 2016, maybe, or you know, around that time. So for about two or three years, we were used to Ian's play. We had developed a relationship, just the two of us, because it's just a two-man, two-actor piece. Ian's play is. So we were used to those lines. One of the biggest challenges for me, myself, was when we got to the film set and they gave us new sides the morning of with completely new words. I'm like, whoa, this is what this is. Okay, sure. Because for me, this is my very first feature film. So I mean, I watch movies, I love movies.

And I grew up with grandparents who watched soap operas, and I'm like, maybe this is what a soap opera is, because there's no way. That was a challenge. And again, acting, the style of acting is different for theater and film. Theater, you have to reach the back of the house. You have to be, it's bigger, it's broader, right? But then when you're on film, the camera does a lot of the work for you. So you have to find more of those nuances and those little small ticks of the character. So it's a much smaller scale, but a bit more powerful aesthetic, so to speak, right?

[17:39] J. Mardrice Henderson: Josh, there was nothing small about your performance on screen. Your facial expressions. I was like, I'm so glad I know him because I feel like he's coming out of that screen. He's gonna kill me right now. And it's so awesome and crazy that you mentioned that. So we went to one screening, and some people had seen the film, they saw me later and I was with a friend, like laughing and joking, and they were like, it's so nice to see you smile. Like, wow, what is that? There were layers to that because, you know, the intimidation of a man, a black man who's not smiling is a whole other thing. But it's like, I was proud in that moment that they believed me enough to not think that I wasn't a guy who smiled.

But, you know, that's just a whole other conversation. But yeah, thank you. Thank you. But my point was that comparatively, the two styles of acting are very, very different, so to speak. And you know, Lauren, it, Josh and I laugh about this all the time. But I think this is the second or third interview we've had to reveal this, but now we're kind of just pretty open about it. But yeah, after a couple two or three years of the stage script, we had received the screenplay, what we thought was the screenplay, but this was, and that was like a few weeks or a month beforehand, the final one, and we'd had rehearsals, which was a luxury that some independent films don't get. But we arrived and we had new sides every day.

So yeah, it was like working on a soap opera, but what that, and we're talking about new sides with new rhythms, new, not some new words, some new phrases, but like certainly new rhythms. And if anything, what it did in that process was encourage and almost insist that we listen that much more with care.

[19:45] David zum Brunnen: And when I say that, there's an old adage of one of our acting teachers, Serena, an acting teacher from years ago, that instead of just professional listening, which is very thoughtfully listening, doing this with your eye, and you can always tell when somebody's doing it, as opposed to just letting your ears fall back and perceive what's actually being given to you and communicated to you. And because of the scenario that we were in each morning as we showed up on set, that encouraged us to do exactly that and to truly perceive and listen with that much more care. I would also say that we mentioned Ian, who was also one of the screenwriters for the screenplay, as well as James A. Hodge. This writing is a gift from both of these people.

It's just a gift, and it made it that much more, it allowed us to embrace it that much more with that much more ease. I mean, it's just a gift that both of them provided to us. But I would also note that Sean Dozier, the director, Steve Milligan, the director of photography, and Ayanna Johnson, who was one of our producers and also our line producer, who is a big factor in making this film happen. Those three people, along with several others, and it's very much similar to what Serena, the atmosphere that Serena had created in directing the stage by Native, there was a true sense of ensemble. And I mean from top to bottom, director, DOP to produce, to Ayana, to the leads, to the featured, to what we considered our ensemble.

There were no extras on this film, there were ensemble members. And to the crew members, there was a true spirit of ensemble, and sometimes to the point of improvisation of shots, of certain angles, to the point that it allowed us to embrace that much more, the spontaneity of what was being given to us every morning. So yes, that sense of ensemble mirrored much of what we were given by Serena Abhart, the director of Native, but it lent itself when we were presented with very new circumstances, very different environment, new challenges, different challenges when we were on set.

[22:10] J. Mardrice Henderson: One thing I think is so fascinating about the film that worked for me so much and is evident on screen, is the trust the two of you have with each other. And so I think it becomes evident in those really intense scenes that there is this trust that you've lived with these characters for more than a minute. More than just a film version, as you said, 13 years. Which I think really makes it work. Again, we did the play for two or three years before we hit the film set. And when you're doing a two-character show, there has to be a level of trust. Because for theater, every show is different, right? Even on the smaller scale shows as if with just two actors.

[23:17] J. Mardrice Henderson: So David and I have had to build up a trust because one line can we can skip eight pages, but we gotta go there together, right? So we gotta trust that if we do skip some pages, we can bring it back. We have our own stories of some productions that we've been in. It's like, wait, where were we? But we have to trust each other to know and trusting each other's skill set and their interpretation of their characters to know that we can build this story whichever way that it goes, which also helps in filming, which is filmed nonlinear, it's filmed out of order, right? So being that we already had that relationship, that bond between each other as actors and the characters that we had portrayed, I think that imbued through the screen as well through the filming of the piece.

I think we consider ourselves brothers at this point. I mean for sure. You know, but the trust is implicit. And I don't think we need to share with anyone else because it is between us. But it's almost sometimes it's not verbalized and sometimes it's not even a physical gesture. But even before we go on stage in the play, and each day before we started filming a scene, there we had our moments brief as they may be or as long as they may be, to share with one another. Sometimes it was just a matter of breathing together and I don't mean that as an actor's exercise. No, no, this was just an understanding of implicit trust.

[24:39] J. Mardrice Henderson: When you started working on this piece as a play in 2016, the political climate was a lot different than it is now, and a lot different than when the play when the movie premiered a few months ago. Because of the current political climate, did your approach to the characters change? I'll let David speak more on this, but I did want to say that we actually shot the film five years ago. Principal photography actually finished in early 2020. This is before George was assassinated. So even within the time that we actually finished principal photography, there were some other filming kind of here and there, but once principal photography was done, we've seen a lot of changes in our culture, our society, and our racial tensions.

I think there was a push to try and get this to the people sooner than we got it out, but of course, there are some legalities and all those things that took place. But I think we wanted to push to get this out because we wanted to still be relevant, right? And we see three to five years later, here we are. And we're just as relevant as we were in the 1940s, 2020, and 2025.

[26:30] David zum Brunnen: The creative team, including Josh, was one of those, the core creative team. On set in post, pre-production post, but particularly post, but even with the play, but particularly with the film and post. I was so driven and so rife with stress that we were losing the window opening of how when this film would be relevant. I was just certain we were going to miss our moment, that the delays due to COVID or otherwise were compromising our ability to get this message and this story out. And everybody, including Josh, particularly, but Serena and the director and Steve and Milligan and Sean and Ayana, everybody were like, David, this story is not going away. Its relevance will continue. And I think, as Josh just alluded, and you are inferring with your question, it's become more relevant and resonates deeper by the day, if not by the hour.

I think there are some people who would say to you, Lauren, and would say to all of us, that the political climate has not necessarily changed, just become more either more heightened or more visible. That this has been going on for a long time and will continue. And I think, well, I think we know it's going to continue for a while, but it's just become more visible.

[28:10] David zum Brunnen: And in some ways, I think maybe some of what you're referring to in Farran is that in many ways it's become validated. The behavior to suppress and oppress and otherwise nothing to see here, look away. Move right along, nothing to see here, has become allowed people to have a cognizant cognitive dissonance that says that affirms to them it's all fine. I mean, we're fine. And that this is nothing new. It's just become validated in many circles.

[28:56] J. Mardrice Henderson: I love that you said that. Because we can't look away anymore. We can't look away since George Floyd. We can't look away from what's happening in Los Angeles last week. We just can't look away anymore. I should say the violence has yet again become affirmed and validated. That's what I'm really getting at. It's the violence, the violent reaction to these things has become affirmed and validated. Which, by the way, is what is so beautiful about Ian and James A. Hodges' work, and he ends in the script, is that you have two gentlemen who in real life, even though much of the dialogue is fictionalized but refers to historical record, even though that is dramatized, these gentlemen had such a high mutual and deeper mutual respect, they were civil towards one another.

And we actually had one director at one of the screenings afterwards, who was another film director at one of the film festivals with his film. He said, he asked, what a goddamn reason, do they really talk like this? And the response was, yeah, they did. They talked like this, they wrote like this, they thought like this. And so it's intriguing to see this visited in such a manner in such a civil discourse, like Mr. Gentleman.

[30:15] David zum Brunnen: You know, I always go back to this line in Hamilton, who lives, who dies, who gets to tell your story. So I guess I just want to open it up to both of you. In the hands of a white writer, I mean, it kind of parallels what's happening on the screen and on the stage if you see the stage play. In the hands of Ian, who is really a brilliant writer, so I'm not saying he's not. He is a brilliant playwright. Why does he get to tell this story?

[30:57] J. Mardrice Henderson: I don't mind answering that. And I don't mind owning it. Because it's essential that we do own it. No matter our color, no matter our race, no matter our socioeconomic background, our ethnicity, our gender identity. We own it. And there's a lot to say, and a lot to share, but again, yeah, I will go to what is said well why again what I've referred to often is Ian has this great response, and he said, you know, he notes people like to take sides. People like to take sides. Yeah, Richard, yeah, Paul. I'm with them both. And what people find is they find themselves agreeing with both of them or disagreeing with both of them at various times, right? And so Ian comforts people, if you will, by saying, you know, it's okay for this to be painful not to have all the right answers, because both of them are right in their own way, okay? They're both right in their own way.

[32:09] David zum Brunnen: And I don't think he's trying to say that Paul's condescension at times is okay. He's just saying there are moments when you know Paul has some pretty good points, and Richard has some pretty good points. And at this point in time, I am of the mindset that I think it's mighty convenient and almost a trap to take one of the other side, one side or the other. It's very convenient because you're denying yourself that pain and questioning of, okay, so who does get to tell the story? And it's a good question to be asking right now. It's always a good question. Is the person who has that personal experience the only person who is allowed to tell that story? Or, you know, are you only allowed to tell the story through personal experience?

Or do we limit ourselves or do we allow our imaginations to be limited? And how can you limit one's imagination in the exploration of personal story, whether it's yours or someone else's? You know, how can you possibly put a barrier on one's imagination if you're asking people to empathize? Well, some of that involves imagining or putting yourself in somebody else's shoes. I'm not justifying this, I'm just saying these are good questions. And I think it's okay not to have the answer.

[33:49] J. Mardrice Henderson: And I embrace, yeah. Or as Paul would say, yes, I'm a white man. But I don't mind owning it. And I was told outright from almost the start of this project that we would face that. That's okay. But part of that, you know, we talked to various people about taking on this story of different races, different backgrounds. And Ian Finley was the one who said, I'm willing to go there. I'll go there. You know, I'll take this on. He was the one. And Serena and I said, you know, we're gonna go there. So yes, I could offer an excuse, and I could offer some excuse and say, well, we have a black female producer, we have a black female screen composer. You know, I could say all these things, that's not to explain it away, but we made whatever efforts we could to say, you know what, there are different voices, there are different perspectives that have been brought to this as well.

[35:02] J. Mardrice Henderson: But yeah, we were the ones who took it on because we were the ones who wanted to tell the story, you know. That that's my that's the best answer I can give right now, and Josh may have some uh perspectives on it as well. I I would just say that we we had a chance to interview Ian on our podcast for Reclining Our Time Productions. Oop plug. Um but uh uh what I will say is that Ian is a is a scholar, he's a scholarly writer, he he's a lover of history. So this piece is is drenched with historical facts and historical readings, and of course it is dramatized because no one knows what actually was said in that room, but from the the what he was reading and studying, this is a very, very close uh dramatization of what actually happened between these two men.

A lot of times, people when you put the label of black show on it, there's a limited audience that's going to interact with it, right? Um, I I want to bring up Steven Spielberg was the director and producer for The Color Purple in 1985, which brought Oprah Winfrey one of her uh Oscar nominations, and and the the gentleman who directed Cynthia Revo in the revival of the of the show was was a Scottishman, or he wasn't it was a personal, he wasn't a person of color, right? So I think a lot of times we there's this contention of who gets who has the right to tell this story, and again, it's an ever evolving question, and there's no specific answer. But I I I will say that a lot of times, and it's mentioned in the movie, this is a white man's country.

Uh it's slowly, it's slowly fading, hopefully, where we want to get there, but there is this pushback, and there's a that's an old political conversation. But I think a lot of times the money is on that side of the table. Um, um and and the the pull is on that side of the table. But I what what what has to be what people have to be aware of is that if you are that white person and you are an ally, there is a line of demarcation that has to be that you have to be cognizant of, right? There's there's you can put the money behind it, you can put the the script behind it, but then you have to at some point give over and let the black or the person of color voice be heard. And and we've had to uh confront these questions from the very beginning, but also in in how we eventually came to sign with a particular distributor.

I mean, we so uh I we uh we went through struggles uh to determine how exactly we were going to get this out to the world and what kind of distribution and what kind of promotion and marketing we were gonna do. And that was after intense years-long conversations with the with both the Paul Green Foundation and the Richard Wright estate, okay. So, you know, we could easily we could start to tell in certain conversations and certain negotiations, okay, these people think this is a this they think these people think this is a black film. And then there were people who think this is oh, this is a play for play for white. I mean, this is a this is uh film for for white people. Uh this is a film for this or that, you know, and we could easily see uh what what the trajectory was in the distribution of this film was gonna be with a given distributor.

And so there were some Serena and I had some really uh not not intense, but some long discussions about okay, how are we gonna do this? Because we have certain um uh certain we have to we had we need to respect the perspectives of both of these families that are still alive and these are real people.

[38:53] David zum Brunnen: You both lived with these characters now for I don't know, nearly a decade. If the if the plays first performed in 2016, and we're uh midway through 2025. What's what have these characters taught you about your own artistic process? I I started I started this piece in my latter 20s, and I'm in my latter 30s. Dear God in heaven. Um that's happening, and and I think I'm much more aware of how I walk out into the world because of because of this piece. I walk, I walk into a room and I'm a black man before I before I speak, before I do or say anything, I am a black man, and that has connotations that run the gambit, right? And so I think I have to take pride, like Richard did, in his intellect and in his perceptiveness to know that okay, this is how you may perceive me, but that's not all that I am.

There's much more to me than what you thought I was when you first saw me, right? And I think that's kind of the approach that I have gleaned from uh being a part of this uh production. Um and uh because a lot of times, and I'm just gonna be transparent. I've been casting a lot of shows because I do speak well, uh, I'm very eloquent in my speech. Um, and that's and I I've actually been given direction wherein I've been told to be blacker, right? Or be more ethnic. And I'm like, what exactly is that? Because you perceived me to be one way, and that's not who I am, and that's not how I was raised, or that's not the environment that I was raised in. That this is no disregard to people who were raised like that.

That's just not me, right? And so maybe you need someone else who is more akin to what you're looking for, but I can't be that. And now I'm comfortable enough to say that that's not if if I've been offered a role or uh uh something like that, I can say that's not who I am. Um, I can give you a different perspective, or maybe you can, you know, find someone else who better fits what what you're looking for.

[41:30] J. Mardrice Henderson: Believe it or not, I'll I'll actually be pretty brief with this response. I am constantly reminded how little I know. We started this project because we were requesting it was requested of us to explore uh ways to make more visible Paul Green's life and work. Okay. As we dug deeper. We were I was uh Bush and I were somewhat aware of this moment where uh where we started to embrace the concept and realization that if you think you know your your Broadway history well think again but um and we started to unfold more of Paul's incredibly rich li and remarkable life um as an artist and as an as an activist this came to our attention we started to dig deeper into it and what started out as a project that we where we wanted to make sure that people uh knew more or knew were aware of Paul Green and Richard Wright and their remarkable lives and then their remarkable work and contribution to shaping our lives today you know maybe we should not have been surprised as we were but it was a somewhat I'm not sure that we were very surprised once we started to get the the the film and the touring that people would not know who Paul Green was.

I don't know that we were that surprised but there was some level of surprise. But with Richard Wright we really expected people to know who he was you know I know Josh has admitted you know and said you know I didn't I'd never experienced Richard Wright what have you and I think we had to have a uh pardon my phrasing, but come to Jesus meeting with ourselves and say, Oh, you know what? We are of a generation that people have no idea who these two men were. And so similar to what Josh conveyed about Serena's uh recounting of the of the experience with our very first student Matinee in front of high school students, people are hungry to find out more. So, in some regard, we probably have achieved some of our goal.

But as you said to start this interview, this this film, this project is about has so many layers. It's about so much. It is about two men, a white man and a black man, who became friends, and it just so happens that they are literary masters, literary greats, highly respected, who at the top of their careers. I mean, they both were like at the pinnacle of Well, and Richard was ascendant, and Paul's was seeing his uh starve somewhat become descendant, but still, yes, they were at the height of their of their creativity, and um, and you had these two men have this friendship of all, but then you know, you become immersed in so much, not just a stylized drama, a character study, but you and that again, this is credit to Ian, James A. Hodge, the director, Steven, uh, Steve Milligan and Ayanna and others, but and Serena's work in the directing of the stage play, but this is an immersion in so much more uh human uh experience.

[45:27] David zum Brunnen: I often say uh that to me, this whole project, the stage play and the film, this is I again, I know it's it's two male, two male authors, giants of their of their time. To me, this is the quintessential American experience. The problem of the hero is available to stream on Apple TV, Amazon, and Tubi. I'll put additional information in the episode notes. Ian Finley's play native is available for booking through ebzb Productions. If you like what you've heard on this episode, be sure to subscribe to this podcast. Follow us on social media at Beltline to Broadway, or visit us online at www.beltline to broadway.org. Until next time, I'll see you at the theater. Beltline to Broadway.