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[0:07] Lauren Van Hemert: This is the Beltline to Broadway podcast.

[0:11] Lauren Van Hemert: I'm Lauren Van Hemert, your host, and on this episode, I'm chatting with Dr. Alisa Hurwitz, aka Dr. Drama.

[0:28] Lauren Van Hemert: So far, 2021 is on track to be the most violent year on record for attacks against the transgender and gender nonconforming community. According to the Human Rights Campaign, this year alone, at least 43 transgender or gender-nonconforming people have been fatally shot or killed by other violent means. And this led me to thinking about popular forms of entertainment, like Tootsie, which just relaunched its national tour, or Mrs. Doubtfire, which just opened on Broadway, or even Dave Chappelle's most recent Netflix comedy special. So, I wanted to turn to my friend clinical psychologist, Dr. Alisa Hurwitz, known to many of you as Dr. Drama, to explore not only how the media we consume affects our views, but also what we can do to be allies and stand in solidarity with our trans brothers and sisters.

Elisa's specialty areas include providing therapeutic support for transgender individuals who are either in or wanting to begin the transition process. She says that not only does the man in the dress trope perpetuate stereotypes, but it can also cause real-world harm. And that is where our conversation begins.

[2:09] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: People don't understand this topic of gender identity, just fundamentally don't understand. It's not something that we talk about in our culture, you know, in a similar way that we didn't talk about sexual identity up until a couple decades ago. You know, it's just part of like, uh, um, uh development. Um, so most people have never explored it, so they don't understand even what it means. They don't understand the difference between um sex and gender identity or gender identity and gender and gender norms and gender expression. Um, so this trope of the man in the dress plays into this common misconception that that's what a trans woman, who a trans woman is. My understanding from people who have seen Mrs. Doubtfire is that and the process that they've tried to run through the show, you know, the creative team and getting um a consultant on after people spoke out about you know, playing that, playing up on that trope, um, is that it is possible to have a character who is doing drag in essence, without the them being in a dress and being a man a man in a dress being the joke.

That's where a lot of the harm comes from is that it's funny that a man's in a dress. And you know, in most shows are, you know, creative teams are men, white, cisgender, able-bodied males. So, you know, men misunderstanding that the impact of that narrative, cisgender men misunderstanding the impact of that narrative, is it it it clocks, right? And that's why we need more representation behind the stage as well. Um, you know, so that different perspectives are being represented.

[4:01] Lauren Van Hemert: I'm curious because I mentioned the panto tradition, and panto goes back centuries to English tradition where men dressed as women and and were good joke. Has it ever been okay for a man to dress as a woman on stage? And if so, when did it stop being okay?

[4:30] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: Yes, and this is where I think it gets really complicated. The whole thing is complicated, right? It's complex. There is not a yes, there's not a it's not black or white. So I'm not a theater historian, so correct me if I'm wrong, but you said 13th century, it's as old as 13th century. It goes back to humor. Humor always comes from the unexpected, and so I would conjecture that the unexpected there is that is breaking, you know, gender norms, like very distinctly breaking gender norms, you know, from centuries ago, they were even, you know, more strict than they are now. And so if that's the crux of the humor, then can panto ever not be couched in transmisogyny? Whereas we think of about a different art form of a man in a dress of drag with that came out of gender expression, um, transgressive uh protest, political art, um, and celebration of women.

Uh, and so a man can be in a dress and it has a totally different tone, totally different meaning, totally different impact. Um, the joke isn't that a man's wearing a dress. The jokes are something totally different. The beauty is that a man is wearing a dress. That's the beauty. And that celebration, um, like I said a minute ago, has a totally different impact than something like Panto.

[6:06] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: But then you get into other complicated areas like Shakespeare, right? Where traditionally it was performed, you know, only by men. You know, what does that mean? Did you know, and how do we take that? Is that you know, is that because women just weren't, you know, weren't allowed on stage and how does that translate to what that means, or you have like a gender, a gender swap role. I don't like that term because it there's problematic for a variety of reasons. It's not like you it's either or, but that's the problem with it. But you know, it's complicated, but you know, when you compare panto and drag, there's such a it's a such there, I think you can really see how the intention and the tradition change the tone and the impact.

[6:51] Lauren Van Hemert: And I love that you're making this distinction, and I would direct people towards the Amazon film adaptation of Everybody's Talking About Jamie, because there is such beautiful discourse in there. There's just a beautiful moment in there where they really do acknowledge the history of drag culture. And it just was so moving to me. So I would direct people to that movie because I do think that speaks to exactly what you're talking about.

[7:29] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: Um, as far as the distinction. I would also recommend there's an HBO series called We're Here, um a shortened version of We're Queer, We're Here and We're Queer, um, which has been you know a rallying cry in the gay community. Um, and it's got uh three drag well-known drag queens from from the RuPaul Drag Race world, um, going into the middle of the country, using drag as uh teaching uh teaching people how to do a drag performance as a way to make some kind of change. So from this political uh, you know, from the political history of the art form, and it is it is truly one of the best shows uh in recent years. Um, it's it's so powerful. Um, and it shows you how yeah, I mean it just shows what drag can do. I will list all these resources for you with links so that you can access these things really easily.

[8:31] Lauren Van Hemert: Um, the show, Jagged Little Pill reopens tonight. The show really came under fire because of the way one of the characters in that show is portrayed, the character of Joe, to kind of address a lot of these issues. Jagged Little Pill produced a four-part video discussion series called Wake Up, Why Social Responsibility in Theater Matters. During one of those episodes, they address gender expression and sexuality. Did the show go far enough in addressing these issues?

[9:11] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: Also complicated. So when it was out of town, when it was at the American Repertory Theater, there was discussion um around the show about that, okay, this character seems to be going, you know, figuring out that they are non-binary. We have who we think is a cis actor playing the role is that appropriate. I think they made you know some changes to the character somewhat in response to that and somewhat just in response to like streamlining the you know the narrative and the show which shows do but then it felt like a racer um so then they said in that series that character was never anything but cisgender in Boston and that was the gaslighting that people refer to because we know people know what they saw.

So the show it you know the show has caused real harm. The show also has done things you know it was the first show on Broadway to have uh every actor's uh pronouns listed in their bio so you know here's a show like taking risks and getting I think a lot of the heat that the whole industry deserves so some of it you know some of it is fair and they acknowledge that and some of it is just you know the trans people have you know have been just asking for equity you know screaming into the void and you know and finally it's like you know the show's responding to those to those to those requests for equity and it's um it's they've stumbled um and so they're getting a lot of heat about that.

[10:09] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: Um, Lauren, I think the other interesting thing that I'm not seeing really discussed is that after so Jagged Little Pill put out uh a statement um about you know like an action plan which I thought was great people are upset that Lauren's staying in the role but Lauren did a talk with Shekinah who's a trans activist and and an actor um in their own right um very much so um and um they talked about they talked about all this and I heard Lauren what I took away from it is that Lauren was saying that she that she's questioning her gender identity and she's not ready to talk about that publicly and so what if we find out down the road that she for example actually identifies as non-binary and she's but as some part of the community has been getting all of this vitriol um while she's going through her own journey I don't I don't feel so good about that I think it I think it it's it's such a gray area you know what if she's just not ready to talk about it publicly is it is this representation still you know and do I don't think she deserves to be called transphobic.

[12:13] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: I don't begrudge anybody their feelings, but people are upset, and that is valid. What you do with that upset can be better or worse, and I think attacking her, I don't think that's fair, and I don't think that moves the needle. People listen when we talk, not when we yell. Again, people's feelings are so valid. I get concerned about these attacks, especially attacks on social media platforms, especially this cancel culture that we're living in, because like you, I don't feel like it really moves the needle. If somebody's unrepentant, I think it's okay to say I am not going to support with my dollars and or attention their art or their whatever their business. I think that's different than a show like Jagged Little Pill having conversations, having these difficult conversations, and having an action plan, which they've already enacted.

I'm not here to defend, just to be clear, I'm not here to defend anyone or any show or anybody. I want change. I want change for our trans siblings, and so I want to highlight and encourage it. Even though it's not enough yet, it's movement, and that's good, right? So they had an action plan, they've already enacted it. They announced their Australian cast for the show, and as promised, the actor playing Joe is non-binary. Yes, that was on their action plan, so that's good. This is good. And going one step further, I think we have to acknowledge a person like Alexandra Billings, who is portraying Madame Morrible in the Broadway production of Wicked. It has nothing to do with her being trans; it just has to do with her playing a fierce role on Broadway.

[14:17] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: And what's so notable in Alexandra Billings in that role is that comes after Cameron McIntosh made some terrible comments about casting trans people in roles like that as being gimmicky. Are we gonna start to see a cultural shift in companies being more mindful about casting choices, casting decisions, action plans like we're talking about? I think so. I think, you know, we're at a reckoning, right? We've been in this reckoning in the theater industry over the past couple of years in terms of racism as well, and to a certain degree misogyny. And it all needs to happen. I suspect, I don't know, I'm curious what you think. I suspect we're gonna see changes in casting more diversely in terms of gender identity before we see more diverse stories being told.

I think, you know, it's kind of as you go up the power ladder, you know, and producers selecting shows to produce is kind of pretty much at the top of the chain. And I'm not sure we're gonna see that as quickly.

[15:31] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: We're already seeing some change. We're already seeing shows hiring, like, you know, hiring natural hair consultants, for example, because of the way that racism plays into how wigs are prepared and fitted and created for women, with Black women, with natural hair. We see, you know, a Kaden Kearney being cast as Emma in the national tour of The Prom, and Caden is a non-binary actor. We see, shout out to Caden, their tour begins, I think, the 2nd of November, so that's coming up soon, and that show is gonna make such a difference to people in the middle of the country. I'm so thrilled. You know, we see Alexandra Billings, we see a show like Head Over Heels, you know, where their gender queerness is represented, and we see an actress like Peppermint on stage.

We see the national tour of that really incredible production of Oklahoma. We see Sis playing Ado Annie, right? And so sometimes, a lot of the times, the casting of an actor who's trans brings a different angle to the role, but it also has nothing to do with it at the same time, right? So Sis being a trans woman and a Black trans woman being Ado Annie is just her being a woman in this character, right? She's just being Ado Annie, but she's gonna bring her own experiences, her own life experiences to that role and bring something fresh to it. But she's, you know, Alexandra Billings being Madame Morrible is just her playing this campy woman who's, you know, kind of working against our protagonist.

So that, you know, we just all want to be seen as people. Everybody just wants to be seen, right? We just want to be seen for our fullness and our humanity. And so this, you know, while we talk about representation and, you know, so for example, if a character's non-binary, that character we played by an actor is non-binary because they can bring that experience to the role, you know, and to the truth of performing that role. It's also not the only way we want to see people who are non-binary represented on stage at all.

[15:50] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: Well, and I do wonder, you know, I agree with you. I think in Broadway we're gonna see the casting decisions change before we see the stories change. I do kind of wonder regionally if we'll see a reversal in that. I think regionally we could see the stories change maybe before, or well, simultaneously or in tandem to seeing the casting change. So I'm excited to see what happens on our regional stages and what work is born out of these conversations. But we just want more representation. Representation is important. People want to see themselves on stage, and I want to see different representations. I don't want to just see theater through a white gaze. I don't want to just see that. It's limiting. It's most important, it's limiting to people in those marginalized groups, but it's limiting to us in the audience. In addition, it's, you know, we're limiting ourselves to this white male cisgender able-bodied perspective.

[19:17] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: You know, so Ado Annie is another example of how representation matters, right? So here was the wonderful Ali Stroker playing Ado Annie in the Broadway production. She is a person who uses a wheelchair. And so we got, she was just Ado Annie. She was just Ado Annie. But we got to see somebody who uses a wheelchair being sexy. And when do we see that represented in the media? So she brought something that was fresh to that role and to our understanding of how we see somebody who uses a wheelchair. And she talked about also that people were given permission to stare. It's rude, it's rude to stare, but people's eyes see something different, and so they look. It's human nature. But now we were given permission to like see and to stare and to see, oh, she's in the wheelchair and she's damn sexy. Oh, she uses a wheelchair and she's dancing. Oh, she uses a wheelchair and she's in control.

[20:17] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: So the lead producer on Jagged Little Pill is a woman named Eva Price, who's a queer woman, who was also a lead producer on Oklahoma. You know, so she has been part of these conversations about representation on stage, and then, you know, her production of Oklahoma has now cast a trans woman in the role of Ado Annie in the national tour. And I'm sure that's not disconnected, right? So the conversations happening matter, you know, like in this very direct way. We see Eva, you know, being part of making this choice to cast Sis. Now, Sis is talented. So it's, you know, it's not like the idea of tokenism is not like we'll just give somebody a chance because all these other, you know, white cisgender people are so talented, but we'll just let her have a chance.

[21:05] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: No, it's about getting in the room, it's about being seen, it's about connections, right? I think a lot of the conversation around Jagged Little Pill, and I'm gonna turn the spotlight to Hamilton for a second because SUNY Reed from Hamilton, who is a trans actor, came out and talked about how they were treated on the national tour when they asked for gender-neutral dressing rooms. All of this speaks to this idea of creating a safe space. Um, and this terminology, safe space, which I'm not sure is the correct terminology. I've heard other people use affinity spaces and different language around this, but this idea is something that we've heard a lot during this reckoning. How do we actually create a safe or affinity space or environment for our artists?

And do we call it a safe space or is there some other terminology we should be using? I like affinity space, that's beautiful. Um, I feel like safe space has been one of those terms that's been hijacked by the culture, you know, by the kind of the social media culture to mean something a little different. Um, you know, it's like a place that's devoid of basically just sensory input, like, oh, you just need a padded room. Um, you know, and I think the original intention of that term was a place that is protected from real harm. Um, just like the term, you know, like trigger warning has been hijacked as well. Um, so I, you know, I think again it's complicated, right? Uh, but ideally I know, you know, budgets are always limited and all of that.

Ideally you start from the top and you hire and you also start from the top. So we have our pronouns in here as, you know, as cis allies and I have my pronouns in my, you know, in my professional email signature. Um, anytime I'm doing, uh, you know, I'm doing anything, um, you know, that's public facing, um, so that it's easier, it's easier for people who may be trans or non-binary genderqueer to have their pronouns in so it's not automatically outing people as under the trans umbrella, right? So just a simple act like that, like, and you said you're trying to be more cognizant of it, that's change, that's change. And you know, it starts at home, you know, we make the change in our workplaces or our, you know, our place of work, our house, our business, our, you know, circles.

So I think, you know, I think little things like that absolutely matter. Um, normalizing having people, um, introduce themselves with their pronouns, um, you know, on the first day of school, you know, communicating, um, with people about what they need, um, and possibly hiring consultants, um, to make spaces have affinity. Um, you know, you don't, we don't know what we don't know. Equip people to support the team in a way that is in affinity with who they are. Um, and I think the last part of it is hiring more diversely.

[24:45] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: So, you know, part of the problem with Hamilton, um, which, you know, kind of has the cloud of being like the most diverse show, the most kind of, uh, forward show on Broadway. And it's wonderful. I mean, it was like kind of classic, you know, it broke glass ceilings. The creative team, it's been pointed out, the creative team are all, uh, white passing, and then behind the stage, it's mostly white cis able-bodied folks. So here you have, you know, on stage all these beautiful black and brown folks, and Asia and AAPI. Um, and then behind the stage, uh, you know, these, for example, these white stage managers. So a non-binary person or a trans person, an identified trans person who identifies as trans says, I need a different change room.

Neither of these options fit my gender identity, and um, it's not properly accommodated, you know, and the change, I'll tell you the change that we're seeing is not always coming from the top down. It is sometimes the people who don't have as much power as the people at the top who are demanding the change. And let's not forget that's what allyship is. That's using our privilege to create change and we use our voice along with, uh, people who are marginalized.

[26:11] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: Absolutely, and that kind of leads into this, um, next discussion because I feel like we would be remiss if we didn't talk about Dave Chappelle and his Netflix special. On the one hand, um, people will say that Dave Chappelle is holding up a mirror to society and punching up his comedy. On the other hand, many in the trans community and those who consider themselves allies and sisters and brothers to the trans community feel that he is really causing harm. Does this kind of comedy go too far? Or is it an opportunity for us to have a discourse around these topics?

[27:03] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: Yeah, so I will say that, um, my caveat here is that I haven't watched it, I've made a choice not to watch it. I had, I loved the Chappelle Show. Um, I do like him, you know, historically as a comedian. Um, but, uh, for me, I have heard from people in the trans community about the harm that this comedy special caused. So I've made a choice not to kind of use my, my dollars, so to speak, to, uh, to watch that special. So I'm, I'm speaking from a place of being only partially informed. I've read a bunch about it, um, about this particular special. Um, I think the discourse goes back to the issue of harm, right? So you, you started, um, you know, you, you introduced our conversation in the context of real world harm that happens to trans people, especially trans women of color who are at higher rates for domestic violence and homicide, being the victims of homicide.

Um, so when people, you know, make this argument that there's not real world harm, it's a fallacy. Um, the representations in media, which another Netflix special or with program Disclosure, the documentary Disclosure that they streamed, they didn't produce it, um, pointed out very clearly and eloquently, there is a connection between how people are represented in media and, um, real world harm. It's, you know, in addition to, you know, more extreme outcomes like homicide, um, there's also higher rates of, uh, especially in teens, multiply higher rates of, uh, suicide, suicide attempts, lethality of suicide attempts, depression in the trans youth community, uh, you know, in the trans youth population as compared to their cis peers.

Um, so I just, I almost don't get that idea of like there's not real world harm. Like it's, it's right there in the statistics. At the end of the day, like, you know, professionally I'm a scientist, so what's the science, you know? At the end of the day, I'm also a humanitarian. So this supporting the trans community, you know, you know, just across the board and with this, you know, with what I'm hearing them saying about what harm this has caused, um, I'm, who am I to tell them it didn't hurt them? People said it hurt them. That's enough. End of sentence, right? I do understand from what I've read that Dave Chappelle was trying, here's where it's complicated, was trying to make a point about white queerness excluding being anti-racist in their, uh, demands for change, which is true.

It's historically true, it's currently true. There's, there's right, there's white gay men who, um, have just not done enough to fight racism. And there are a lot of white lesbians who are TERFs, trans-exclusionary radical feminists. Um, so that's a valid point, which you can make without punching down at the most marginalized, which are trans women of color. And, uh, just the toll, everybody under the trans umbrella, right? But, but you know, right there in particular, your anti-racism doesn't include trans women of color, is it anti-racism? If your feminism doesn't include trans women, is it feminism? For me, the answer in both cases is no. So do your work, do your research.

[30:36] Dr. Alisa Hurwitz: Alisa Hurwitz hosts a series online called Brain Lab. You can find her on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook at the Dr. Drama, or find her online at DrDrama.com.

[30:51] Lauren Van Hemert: If you like what you've heard today, please consider subscribing to this podcast. Follow us on social media on Facebook or Instagram at Beltline to Broadway or Twitter, Beltline to B Way, or visit us online at www.beltlinetobroadway.org. Until next time, I'll see you at the theater.