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[0:00] Lauren Van Hemert: Hello everyone, I'm Lauren Van Hemert, and welcome to the Beltline to Broadway podcast.

[0:07] Lauren Van Hemert: Before we jump into this episode, I want to let you know that this is our first ever podcast crossover.

[0:15] Lauren Van Hemert: What that means for you, our listeners, is that this interview with Ken Cerniglia is broken up into two parts.

[0:23] Lauren Van Hemert: One part is being broadcast here on Beltline to Broadway, and the other is being broadcast on the Broadway Underground Podcast.

[0:32] Lauren Van Hemert: On this episode, we're taking a deep dive into dramaturgy, and on the other podcast, we're looking at fandoms specifically through the lens of Disney shows.

[0:43] Lauren Van Hemert: I really hope you will listen to both parts, subscribe to both podcasts, and of course, continue supporting theater wherever in the world you might be listening from.

[1:04] Lauren Van Hemert: This is the Beltline to Broadway podcast. I'm Lauren Van Hemert, your host, and on this episode, I'm chatting with Ken Cerniglia.

[1:47] Lauren Van Hemert: Ken Cerniglia, dramaturg and literary manager for Disney Theatrical Group, as well as dramaturg for Hadestown, says there are direct parallels between dramaturgy, the quality of show being delivered, and even how a show connects with audiences. And that is where our conversation begins.

[2:11] Lauren Van Hemert: I heard something recently, now I shouldn't remember where the source was, but someone talking about a dramaturg as a tailor, right? Not necessarily like the clothes designer or the fabric maker, but someone who can sort of take something, there's a vision for it there, but then help make it fit. A tailor is sort of an expert in making things fit, right? And so knows the craft of that, doesn't have the vision for what the clothes are, the colors or the thing, but like whatever you got, I'm gonna make it fit. Knowing how the parts fit together, knowing the fundamentals of the craft, that's what dramaturgy is, sort of like the definition of it is like how what are the structures of meaning in making a play or a drama, right? And does it change from production to production?

[2:56] Lauren Van Hemert: So, for example, we're seeing a lot of Still Magnolias. So if Theater A, if Temple Theater is doing Still Magnolias and they have one vision for the show, yes, does that dramaturgy piece change from Theater B, who may have a completely different take on it, even though the script is the same?

[3:18] Ken Cerniglia: Yes, that's a very good question. So there is production dramaturgy, which is a little bit of what we are talking about, yes, often which is taking a play that already exists, and then dramaturgying the production, so working with the director, the producer, the design team, then the actors, then to just be like, where did this play come from? What were the original circumstances of like who's the author? What was the impulse for this play? Like what was the original audience like? What was this thing wanting to do in its time and place when, you know, Steel Magnolias, for example, was written? And then before it was a movie, it was a play. But like, you know, and you know, well, why are we doing it now? That kind of thing.

[4:04] Ken Cerniglia: And then to work then with like that context, like the text in context. That's what the dramaturg focuses on mainly, and structures of meaning. And so then to have those conversations, like, are we all on the same page? And it's a different kind of thing than, you know, producer, writer, director. Those are the leads, like the producer is the lead on making the event happen, you know, finding the money, getting the thing, making it happen. The director is the vision for this production, visionary, the vision, and then the author is the voice, you know, what's your worldview and what do you want to say? And so then the dramaturg needs to understand that and help facilitate all of those things and asking the hard questions about why this play in this place, in this time for this audience, why here, why now?

[4:50] Ken Cerniglia: Though and like constantly coming back to those questions, just to make sure, like to keep everyone honest. Like, obviously, like a producer, writer, a director will have that impulse to, you know, want to bring it to the stage. You know, a director will be like, I love this play, I've always wanted to do it this way, you know, whether it's a classic or what have you. And so then you know, when I'm working with a director, I'm like, let's you know, let me be your sounding board. So let me be your first audience. Yes, like shoot me your ideas and let me like then ask you questions about it and help refine that thing that you want, and then keep you honest about it. Is this still the mission of the show? Is this still what you want to do? I love that.

[5:27] Ken Cerniglia: And then just to bring in, you know, other resources. Most of our backgrounds are in, you know, theater history, dramatic literature, all those kind of semiotic structures of meaning, all of that, critical theory, all you know, those things that I can bring in. And I'm just like a generally curious person, so anything I read is automatically relevant. But also curating that information, right? So, really the work of the dramaturg with respect to research on the new production of Steel Magnolias is like where is it set in the South? Like, who are these people? What is that like what's relevant, you know, in terms of representation of women in Steel Magnolias then, and like where are we now in conversation about women in society? Right. What are the pressing questions? You know, what what are roles of women? How do we engage with this period and sort of do it justice, but also make it now?

[6:13] Ken Cerniglia: I mean, the thing about like a movie or a book, you know, magazine that gets published, um, produced in a certain place in time. So you can go back and watch a movie as Steel Magnolias, which I like to do because those performances are amazing. But I always watch it at that point in time when the movie was released. I always have that in mind. Right. We're doing a play when we're in the theater, we always no matter when the play was written, we always have to stand behind it. Absolutely tonight. We're always doing it tonight. We're saying something live tonight.

[6:43] Ken Cerniglia: So we can't just rely on like, well, in this time, it's like how are we standing behind this? Like some plays don't need to be produced anymore because the thing they originally wanted to say is just no longer relevant, or like rings sort of deaf on terms of cultural sensitivities there. So hopefully the dramaturg will be engaged in that conversation with the makers to be like, let's make sure we're engaging our audience now and we're creating a relevant piece of theater for tonight.

[7:09] Ken Cerniglia: I also feel like the dramaturg kind of helps, I feel anyway, that helps the theaters from tripping over themselves and kind of getting in trouble, especially as we kind of enter this new, we see white American theater movement.

[7:26] Ken Cerniglia: Absolutely. So part of the role of the dramaturg is to be like, you know, who's in the room, who's missing from the room, who needs to be a part of this conversation and work to bring in those consultants to, you know, have a check as you're developing your production. Language is evolving all the time, cultural sensitivity is evolving all the time, and the whole and the goal of theater is to create an open empathetic space where we can hear other people's stories.

[7:55] Ken Cerniglia: The fundamental act of theater is an actor stepping into a character that's a fundamental act of empathy. And so when we go see that live and in person, we are encouraged to also put ourselves in those places. That this is the thing we always have to think about. What is the sensitivity? And if you're representing an experience that's outside of your life experience, who's in the room to help you through that? To keep you to do a truth-telling check on you and your imagination into another's experience. Like that has to happen. We all have to imagine ourselves into others' experience, but we want to do so with grace, with intentionality, with sensitivity, and with love.

[8:36] Ken Cerniglia: So, in order to do that, you need more information. So, why dramaturgy versus some other aspect of theater for you?

[8:44] Ken Cerniglia: It's a great question. Does a psych major at UC San Diego? My first quarter there, I took a theater class, and I was like, this is gonna be part of my life somehow. I just knew it. It wasn't even like I decided, it was like, oh, I recognized the calling.

[8:58] Ken Cerniglia: Like the universe was calling to me and said, you will be doing something in theater. Um, and I eventually double majored, so I graduated with a degree in psychology and theater, and I performed, I emphasized performing in my major, but also directed a little bit and I produced and just was thinking like the bigger things, but always, you know, I was that kid who's always why I was like a born philosopher. I'm like, but why? What does that mean? Why are we here? Is there God? Do we exist? Like, right? Where are we in the universe? Um, and you know, and that's just sort of my orientation to theater too. And that, and then you know, the way my mind worked too was like, you know, I was always the kid that was like noticing the continuity errors in films, right?

Like I just have that level of detail orientation to the way you the world thinking, yeah, yeah. But I know you know, not everyone's the same. I recognize like, oh, that's just part of the way I'm a learner in the world is looking at details and how they fit into the whole and seeing and synthesizing information and finding patterns. Like I just have always done that naturally. So when I went to graduate school, I was like, I'm gonna be a theater professor. So I went to programs in theater history and criticism, which left, you know, I have like to read a ton and write a ton, um, which left, and but I want to go to places that had producing departments because the reason I wanted to study theater is because I loved doing theater and being in the theater.

And when I went to my master's degree at Catholic University in DC, I took a formal dramaturgy class, and I was like, Oh, oh, I'm a dramaturg. And also practically speaking, I could still participate in making theater as a dramaturg because the time commitment was a little bit less than being, you know, performing in a show, although I still did some of that. Um and uh and certainly directing or stage managing, we just have to be there all the time. Like as a dramaturg, I could do some of the what you say, pre-production work, um, and then you know, common initial table work, you know, for those of you who know how rehearsals work, you often start with tablework, ask the questions, study the text, you know, all the things, and then a sort of I could leave for a while as things were getting worked out and staging and sort of come back during run-throughs when all the parts are put back together and being an ally of the vision and the voice to be like, oh, I knew what we were trying to do, and then come back and see it during run-throughs and be like, okay, this thing seems to be achieving it, these are where their holes are, right?

And I'm also trying to see like the play within the vision, but also like the theater within the community, right? We're doing this play not in isolation, but like what's going on in our town right now, what's going on in the world, how are people gonna come to this? How do we welcome people into the theater to let them know what we're doing and to welcome them to suspend their disbelief with us for an hour or two, right? And so we just have that communal experience. You know, when I think of theater criticism, and a lot of people have had discussions around why theater criticism, why what it why are theater critics necessary? We've heard those conversations a lot um in our area lately, and I one of the answers to that question is to be that historian and to document the theater's connection to its community.

So I love that you say that. Yeah, and you know, I'm thinking about the theater critics too, right? Like this is a profession, this is a craft to come and see a piece of theater to put it into context. And you know, in the in the in the profession of journalism, right? You need to address readers, you need to sell papers, you need to whatever you need to do, but like this is journalism too. You're reporting on an event that's happening in the world, and you know, you're analyzing it and uh, you know, giving an opinion about it, whether to see it or not. And I, you know, I feel it's uh it's bad for the theater, the theater critics are um having fewer opportunities to earn a living. And I'm not one of those that's like, oh, the theater critics' job is to just like tell us good things.

I'm like, no, a theater critic's job is to assess what we have brought there. And so my job on the dramaturg's zone is like I want to make the theater critics job easier. I love that. Just so like let me let me ask the hard questions first before the critic comes in, and nothing's ever perfect. Like there will be things that are there to criticize, right? And they should be, um, but hopefully fairly. Like, hopefully, we've done enough of our homework that we can put forth something that's worthy of our audiences and a critic's thoughtful response. You're working on a little show. Maybe you guys heard of it. Maybe it's time, maybe not under the radar. Now touring the country, how long are you with the shows?

Do you come in at the beginning and it's kind of like that pre-production, those pre-designed pre-production meetings, or do you stick with the show and revisit it? And did things change after the pandemic? Luckily, the show's still relevant, but on the tour, uh, the set changed, right? And we have really different actors in the principal roles. So, like some of how things read are a little bit different. And um, and so you know, while the show is done, like Inez didn't do any rewriting. There were a couple like arrangement things that changed that were pretty fun in the process because anytime you take a break from something you come back to, like, what about this? Um, so I was around a bit in studio rehearsals, but mostly just you know, for me, I'm I'm such a fan of the show too.

And to be a cheerleader and to meet the new cast and connect with them and you know, do little storytelling about like where this thing came from, and um just to be a little bit a little bit, you know, I was trained as a theater historian, so that's always important to me too, is looking at what we're doing, not just for now, but for our legacy. Like we're creating something that's gonna go on the shelf of theater history. Yes, um, and that's you know, that that thing is really important to me too. And how do we how do we acknowledge what's come before and be the support of what will come after? And when it works, when when when kind of like all of the cogs and the wheel are coming together on a show, you really can tell when that dramaturgy piece is there.

Although, like you know, I like to say when we do our jobs well, no one in the audience should know what we did. Fair because everything else should be shining the right way. Hades Town, along with Disney's Aladdin and The Lion King are some of the many shows participating in NYC Broadway Week and offering two for one tickets for select Broadway performances through February 13th. Hades Town is also on tour and we'll be stopping at the Durham Performing Arts Center in February. I'll put links in the episode notes. I would like to thank the Broadway Makers Marketplace for letting me set up a studio inside their pop-up shop in New York City for this interview. If you are in the city and searching for theater merch, then you've got to stop by Broadway Makers Marketplace.