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[0:12] Lauren Van Hemert: I'm Lauren Van Hemert, your host, and on this episode, I'm chatting with Cindy Williams.

[0:30] Cindy Williams: When I was a little girl, maybe seven or eight, I would beg my mom to stay up late on Tuesday nights to watch Laverne and Shirley. I would be completely glued to the tube and kind of think that it was these shows that sparked my fascination with television and inspired me to pursue a career in broadcasting. It turns out I wasn't the only one who took comfort in television long before Cindy Williams played Shirley Feeney on that iconic show or made her mark in movies like American Graffiti. She found refuge in the 1950s sitcom My Little Margie, and that's where our conversation begins.

[1:20] Cindy Williams: The Gail Storm show. Her signature thing was she'd always go when she was in trouble. Only she did it in this very lyrical, beautiful way. And I was mesmerized by that. And I just love the Gail Storm show, and I love Gail Storm, and I just loved her mirth and happiness and her dad and the show, you know, in the show, and I just traveled there when I was a kid and lived with them in their household. And then I got to meet Gail Storm years and years later. And I burst up crying when I met her because it was such a part of, you know, was imbued in, she was imbued in me. She was, and I tried to relate that to her. And it and people have tr done that to me. It's such a compliment. So, you know, it's such a God moment and um tip and a blessing. And she took it like that. She did not let me down. This is the way people feel. This is the way I feel, at least, when I'm talking to you, that this is that moment.

[2:27] Lauren Van Hemert: No, it's true. Okay. Um thank you. Growing up, you performed in high school, and one of your classmates was Sally Field. What was that lunchroom like?

[2:35] Cindy Williams: That was true. She was uh in play production. We had play production together, and we actually did what was the show to give? The man who came to dinner. I had a very tiny part. And she played Mr. White's Secretary, and she was brilliant in high school. I remember, you know, we'd all just be in awe of her every time she took the stage. She was just brilliant. And I remember her turning to me one day and she goes, Well, you're just funny, aren't you? And I said, I guess I am, but I want to be like you. I want to be able to do she could do the uh miracle worker when she, you know, she played her mother, Helen Keller's mother, and she was just brilliant. You know, we were what 15? And then she went off to do Gidget and the Flying Nun. And I was very jealous because uh I wanted to be Gidget, of course. We all did, all of us in the entire theater class.

[3:33] Lauren Van Hemert: Did you know you were funny? Did you I mean, you know, obviously she knew you were funny, but did you know you were funny when you were in high school when you were a kid?

[3:41] Cindy Williams: I come from I talk about this in the show a little bit. Um, but I come from a funny family. They're all really, you know, everybody's verbose and funny and loud, and there's the Italian side, and then there's the Welsh side. My dad was the funniest man I ever met. I mean, but not just funny wit, he was witty and he could do these characters that were just natural, you know, and um and he had a great, great wit about him, but he was also an alcoholic, a vicious alcoholic. But uh when he but just brilliant at comedy himself, just brilliant, just a brilliant wit, Lauren. And so I thought everybody's family and everybody was funny and could, you know, just had that. And it was just by rote, I just thought, well, isn't everybody like this? And I found out no, because not everybody can get an A in biology, which I needed to be a nurse, and um, you know, but Gail Storm could have, maybe.

[4:44] Lauren Van Hemert: Did you want to be a nurse?

[4:46] Cindy Williams: You didn't want to be a nurse, you wanted to be a movie star.

[4:48] Cindy Williams: No, I wanted to be a nurse, but I didn't have um, I I didn't have an academic brain. And you know, I've I talk about this a little bit in the show that I I flunked biology, not once, I flunked it twice. Uh I didn't really flunk it, I just got a D and I couldn't get higher than a C. And I thought, who wants a nurse who is um you know, a C student in biology? I know I don't want her at the foot of my bed, but I would have been a great comfort. I should have been a social worker, maybe, except I wouldn't have made it past a year because I they would have been mopping me up with a you know, a squeegee because I I would have just been uh a mess. I couldn't have taken the human drama of it, you know. The humanity of it would have just done me in.

[5:40] Lauren Van Hemert: I did not know this, but one of your first television gigs was working with Gene Kelly. What do you remember about that experience?

[5:50] Cindy Williams: Oh, well, it's like it was yesterday. I I did this show with him, it was an hour variety show called The Funny Side. And the premise of it was they had four couples, uh a hip metro couple, uh, a black couple, uh, a uh young couple and an elderly couple. Oh, there was one other and a blue-collar couple, five couples, and they took one subject matter uh each week. It was an hour show, and they would do we would explore it through song and dance and sketches. Gene Kelly was the host of the show, and uh we'd have guest guest stars on the show, but he was a host, so he would be singing with us at times and dancing with us. He was very, very kind to me and took a liking to me. We have this little bit we did together that he choreographed where it's the old classic movie, turns me around and puts his arms around me, and we sing and sway together.

He and during rehearsal, he took me aside and he said, you know, uh Cindy, you and I are not great singers, but we can sing, and together our voices sound rather good. And so the show lasted for about 13. He was always very, very nice to me. And the show lasted about 13 weeks.

[7:15] Cindy Williams: So you cut to, I'm doing Laverne and Shirley. I get a call from him one day. He goes, Cindy, I'm doing this special called an American in Pasadena. And I'm having uh some of my friends come on the show. It's uh a Frank Sinatra, Liza Minelli, Sid Sharice, Lucille Ball, Betty Garrett, I forget who else. And I was like, yeah. And he goes, and I I want you to come on the show and sing with me. And I go, me on the show. Oh no. And he goes, we're gonna be singing live. I've already picked out the song. And I go, Gene, I know. I can't, and I'm thinking all along you're saying no to Gene Kelly. Oh, my mother would have, she would have shot me if she'd heard that. And I said, Gene, I just don't think I can do that.

And he said, sure you can. And uh he was just bigger than life person, bigger than movies personality. And I said, No, no, I can't. He said, Yes, I already have the song. And I talked, I do this whole thing in the show where I said, just then the doorbell rang, and I said, I've got to get the door. And you know, can I call you back? And he said, Oh, that's a messenger with the script and the music. We start rehearsals on Monday. See you then, Sydney. And I was in the show.

[8:35] Cindy Williams: I think I came into show business with my group of people right on the edge of that old fabulous Hollywood, right at the end of it. And uh, there were still these wonderful pockets of it, and this show was one of them. For me, it was a golden age of television because they don't make they don't make shows like that anymore. No, and there's so much fun, there's no like uh holiday shows like they used to with Andy Williams and you're still too young for that but they used to do these fabulous every holiday St. Patrick's every holiday they'd do these wonderful specials no they don't do it it's gotten political and that's all I'll say about politics.

[9:18] Lauren Van Hemert: Prior to Laverne and Shirley you worked in film you worked with tons of film icons as well two of the films are recognized in national film registry including American Graffiti is there a moment where you and Ron Howard and George Lucas just look at each other and go, this is damn good?

[9:40] Cindy Williams: I just saw Ron about a week ago and we were talking a little about it and um we thought we were doing this hot rod movie all of us like a Roger Corman film which we'd all done worked for him uh except Ronnie up till then so uh we didn't think anything of it we just you know except when George just before we started shooting George described it to Ron and myself as a musical he said I see this movie as a musical because the the music will never stop uh except for two dramatic points and Ron and I we'd been in this meeting when he told us this and when we left the meeting we looked at each other and said a musical genius and we just thought wow that's but we just looked at George as a content, you know, one of us because he was just a kid then, and he'd forget to yell cut or he'd be asleep because he was editing at night.

[10:39] Cindy Williams: But halfway through the movie, which was two weeks in, he invited all the cast and crew to come and see a 20-minute assemblage that they had put together with music. So we all go over to the editing bay, and by the time it was over, I remember Harrison Ford turned to me and said, This is freaking great. And it was, it was just, we were just our jaws dropped. We had no idea that this is what how we were framed, how we were, how it looked. And it was just something that was splendid and magical. And the the sound of it was nothing I'd ever heard. It was these echoes in the night mixed with these car motors revving. And it was just a uh a work of art, and that's when we all knew.

[11:31] Cindy Williams: I don't want to give away the show, but I talk about you know, um, that and the end day when George was explaining that he had this up next project, and we were all just standing around Ron and Charlie Martin Smith and me and I think Paula Matt, and he was saying, you know, I've written something else, and I that I hope to do it's a story about teenagers in outer space saving the galaxy, and and then he looked at us and said, You could all be in it. And I thought, teenagers in outer space saving the galaxy, that'll never happen. And um, I talk about that in the show, but um, yeah, he would it was just like I remember we were in San Francisco, and and he had to take the ferry back to Marin County home, and he didn't have the 75 cents for the ferry boat ride, and I I loaned it to him. So he owes me a lot of money now, Lauren.

[12:33] Cindy Williams: I want to fast forward to you meeting Penny Marshall in person for the first time.

[12:39] Cindy Williams: Is it true that Little Richard said a little prayer over you that night over the two of you?

[12:45] Absolutely. We didn't know each other, Penny and me, and we were on a double date. That's where we met on this double date. And the double our dates took us to the Coconut Grove in Hollywood to see Liza Minnelli with Little Richard opening for her. At the end of the show, Liza invited us backstage, you know, to say hi. And we were, Penny and I were thrilled. Now Penny and I hadn't even spoken to each other because the show started, and you know, and then we were invited backstage. And so us and our dates went backstage. And in order to get to Liza Minnelli's dressing room, you had to go through Little Richard's dressing room because it was like railroad cars, you know, one after the next.

So the boys were, our dates were ahead of us, and Penny and I are kind of walking shoulder to shoulder. And as we're crossing through into Little Richard's dressing room, his dressing table was to the right of us, and he looks up and he sees us, and he puts his leg up and stops us like a parking arm, you know, just and keeps it there. And he says, "You two, I want to say a blessing over you two." And Penny and I immediately bowed our heads, and Little Richard, who was an actual preacher, he proceeded to say the most wonderful prayer over us, asking God for our success, among other things, protection, happiness, success. And when he was finished, he shouted, "Amen," and Penny and I shouted, "Amen," and then his leg went down.

He kept his leg up the whole time. His leg came down, and we just walked on. We were like stunned. And we never spoke about it for years, and many years passed, and we were on the sound stage at and we were rehearsing by ourselves, me and Penny, and on the writer's table, there was a variety, and the headline read, "Laverne and Shirley Gold in LA," and you know, golden in LA. And I called Penny over and I said, "Look at this. What do you think the reason for our success is?" And without missing a beat, Penny said, "Little Richard's blessing." And I said, "Right you are." It was magical.

[15:02] Lauren Van Hemert: How much influence did you and Penny have in shaping the show?

[15:11] Cindy Williams: A sitcom, I always think is a personality play. In other words, you go in, you're cast because you're kind of like what the writers were thinking, and the producers, and then you go in and you give your own flavor to it, and you start adding that into it, and then they start writing toward your personality, and you imbue it with that, and they imbue it with that, and then it becomes what it, you know. It becomes that little, if it takes off and has lightning in a bottle, it's because all that worked. And Penny and I, because we've been writing together, we had this little writing job right before we did Laverne and Shirley, right before. And so we were used to writing our own stuff, and Penny and I always, because we did the show in front of an audience, in front of a live audience, you know, of about 240 people, I guess, on Tuesday nights.

We wanted to make it laugh-out-loud funny. We held the audience in great regard. I mean, we had all respect for the audience. They were our, you know, our other character in the show as far as we were concerned. So everything was geared toward in rehearsal. If we made ourselves laugh out loud during rehearsal, then we were pretty sure we were going to make the audience there laugh out loud, and then again it would translate to the television audience. And we were pretty much right about that. So we would take things and embellish things if they were just laying there, like we'd say, if they didn't have any buoyance to them, you know, or mirth to them. We would just embellish it. And so we came up with a lot of this stuff, but that's not taking anything away from the fabulous writers on the show. You know, it was hit and miss with our shows. Not every show was great, but there were some great shows that I'm proud of, and I know Penny is too.

[15:46] Lauren Van Hemert: How did Laverne and Shirley impact your film career?

[17:22] Cindy Williams: Somebody asked me this just the other day. I didn't think it was gonna, you know, I thought that I would be able to climb above that and play other characters, but I remember going in for this particular film and being told at the end it was only a few actresses that were called in and then getting a phone call from the lead, and he was also the producer, and he called me personally said, "I'd love to be able to cast you in this but you're too recognizable as Shirley," and I totally got it because when people come into the theater and they want to be taken away, if you're a lead in a story that has nothing to do with drop-down comedy and you're recognizable for that, it isn't gonna get out of the audience's head, and I totally understand that, and he was right not to cast me. But I, you know, still in all, I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. It was such a blessing and still is to have played that little character, you know, Shirley.

[17:25] Lauren Van Hemert: You mentioned the show was filmed in front of a studio audience. How did your stage training prepare you for that?

[17:25] Cindy Williams: Because as I hear you speaking about these things, I hear you comparing a show like Laverne and Shirley to a play. Well, Laverne and Shirley was very unique like that because we had the old, it was the old Lucille Ball crew, and so all of the cameras were up on dollies. In other words, so they'd follow us and we could move like we were on, so it was a stage. Unlike film, film is totally different. Film is staccato like that. It just very still here, and they may follow you, but they just followed us like Lucille Ball. And Desi Arnaz invented that because she was moving around so much and so physical. And then it was the best of all possible worlds, Lauren, because the cameras were here following us, and then behind them was the audience and all the seating, and they could see over the cameras and watch it as a play.

And that's how we rehearsed it. I mean, that's how we would run the show each week for the audience, like a play. We'd start at the top. They don't do this now, at least that I know of in too many shows. They break it up into scenes if they have an audience come in. But we'd start at the top and run it all the way through like a play for them. And that's how we rehearsed it with the cameras and ourselves. And we'd start at the top every time, like a play, and in rehearsals, and then when we did it for the audience. And I think that makes a huge difference because we take the audience with us in the rhythm of the show, and they're right along with us in all the gags and all the fun of the show.

There's no remember when they were standing by the two trees now and the wind was blowing. Now remember that because we're going back to it now. We never, oh Penny and I never, none of the cast wanted that. We just wanted to run the show. So we tried, and then if we made mistakes, we'd go back and do pickup shots, but we tried to let the audience leave, you know, before we did those. We wanted the audience in real time to respond to it. So you've got a feeling of it was truth, truth in advertising, Lauren. Or truth in whatever it was.

[21:16] Lauren Van Hemert: You're now touring the country. You mentioned your one-woman show. You're coming to Raleigh, which is so exciting. What surprises people most about you? What are the biggest misconceptions that you hope to maybe debunk in this show?

[21:34] Cindy Williams: Basically, with me, it's what you see is what you get. And I think that was part of the success. Well, I can't lie really. You know, I'm not like I can't fib on stage. I can't pretend to be something I'm not. And I think that was part of the success of Laverne and Shirley, not just me, but Penny's the same was the same exact way. And you still are, aren't you? And we just never had pretensions ever, you know. And so that's why, that's what we were relatable, and we always stayed that way. If it ever got out of that, we were, it was wrong, you know, for our audience, which was everybody.

[22:21] Lauren Van Hemert: You've worked across all of these mediums, film, television, stage. Do you have a favorite?

[22:25] Cindy Williams: If I could, I like the medium of, you know, that Desi Arnaz, you know, the cameras going with you and the audience being right there, because that's the best of both worlds. You know, that's theater and that's live theater and film. And I'm, I never got to do enough film work. It's totally different. In fact, we'd have guest stars who had only done film and never done theater, and they were shaken in their boots. They just didn't couldn't relate to it. And I totally get that because the film that I did, it's daunting to stand there, they lied around you, you don't move, they say we're in here, and I go, in here, bring the expression down. It's a whole other avenue of acting. So I like theater. If I had my druthers, if it was between theater and film, it would be theater.

[23:24] Lauren Van Hemert: When I interviewed Ed Asner, I asked him this question. Looking back on your career, what do you hope your legacy will be?

[23:36] Cindy Williams: I think that, you know, that I could make people laugh and be happy. I think that would be it. That I could garner a laugh out loud with an audience. But it wasn't just me, you know. I could have never done it without Penny. Let's see, let's try. Let me try right now. But I think just that, that you know, I love that people think, or that I, as I said, relatable, that they always think, "Didn't I go to high school with you?" or "Didn't I go to college? Don't I know you from somewhere?" And it's that kind of family thing, that familial thing that I was familiar with.

[24:22] Cindy Williams: Cindy Williams has a one-woman show, Me, Myself and Shirley, which is touring the country, and we'll play the Duke Energy Center later this month. I'll put ticket information in the episode notes. If you like what you've heard today, please consider subscribing to this podcast, follow us on social media, on Facebook or Instagram at Beltline to Broadway or Twitter at Beltline to Be Way or visit us online at www.beltlinetobroadway.org. Until next time, I'll see you at the theater.