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[0:01] ♪ Musical number: "Belt Line to Broadway" ♪

[0:39] Lauren Van Hemert: This is the Beltline to Broadway podcast. I'm Lauren Van Hemert, your host, and on this episode, I'm chatting with Shae Marie Tolbut, who is one of the co-founders of the platform Black Stage Everything. I met Shay Marie earlier this year when she boosted the signal and joined a project I was working on at Beltline to Broadway to encourage and mentor emerging BIPOC writers interested in exploring theater criticism.

[1:07] Shae Marie Tolbut: Shay Marie was one of the panelists on Broadway Body Positivity Project's panel at BroadwayCon, after which she stopped by our booth to talk about theater representation on stage and creating new work and new opportunities for BIPOC artists. Here's our conversation.

[1:34] Shae Marie Tolbut: I mean, like, and it's not many of us, and we still don't even know where we are where we are. Our first thought when making Black Stage Everything was we wanted, we were tired of hearing the critique. We want to hire you guys, but we don't know where to find you. And so we were like, well, let's create a database. Like an all-encompassing database. Because at this time everybody was making databases, right? Like the black hair and makeup people had a database. The black directors had a database. The black casting people had a database. And we were like, what if we put all those databases together? All-encompassing database where you can be found by your occupation, like what you do in the industry and location.

And that's how BSE started. And we started to get a website, and then we quickly found out that starting a database was a lot of money. We're talking about like 10,000, 15,000 type of money. We didn't have that type of money because we was out of work like everybody else. So we ended up really focusing on creating community. Because we were like, by the time we get to the point where we can get the database, we'll have this community, they'll sign up, and then they can add value to the database. So that was our reasoning behind it. And then it just kind of blossomed. It just kind of blew up.

[2:52] Lauren Van Hemert: Alright, so you have Black Stage Everything. You relocate back to New York after the pandemic. And you've been here finishing graduate school. Yeah. You've written this play. Tell me a little bit about the play and the hopes for that.

[3:09] Shae Marie Tolbut: Cool. Cause I always want to start from the beginning, right? Because you can't really talk about what's happening now without the beginning. So when I first moved to New York in 2014, I was the stage manager of the first workshop of Good Grief. That was written by Ngozi Awanu, which a lot of people know was a very extremely talented playwright, poet, actress, et cetera. And the director of the workshop was OB Award-winning Russell G. Jones, and the assistant director was Powers Actor Susan Hayward. And the day that we had the first rehearsal, I was moving to New York that same day. So I got to rehearsal and I was rushing in, and they were like, Oh my god, hey, you made it, you're here. And I'm like, Yeah, I just moved here today.

And everybody was like, What? And I was like, Yeah, today. And so I remember Russell saying, You gotta write something about this. Like, I don't know if you gotta do a blog or if you gotta write a book, you gotta write a play, you gotta write something about this experience. And I said, you know what? Maybe one day, because at that time, I didn't think that I could write a play. Like that never crossed my mind. I wanted to be Audra McDonald plus size version. Okay, I was gonna be the musical theater diva. I was gonna be Patti LuPone, dark skinned and big. You understand? That was my dream, you know what I mean?

[4:36] Shae Marie Tolbut: And so when he said that, I'm like, right, like I was a poet, so I already did slam poetry, but that was as far as it was gonna get. I never thought I was gonna write a book or anything like that. And so fast forward, I moved to LA, and I'm in one of like the darkest times of my life. Like, life just went to hell in LA. And I remember I'm sitting in the project, it was called the jungle, right in the middle of South LA at my friend's house, no money, no way to get money, no job, no nothing. And I remembered Russell's words all of a sudden. His voice came to me, and it said, You gotta write something about this. And I said, shit, I gotta write a play. Swear to God, that literally that's how it happened.

2019, I started writing a play. I didn't know what the hell I was doing ever. I was just writing scenes that actually happened in my real life. And I just wrote them in scenes and just put it down. Before I knew it, I had like 50 pages of scenes. And I was like, Whoa, I think I got something here. So over that time I've been refining, rewriting, visiting, taking things out, you know, cutting, you know, the writing process, y'all about the process. And I started my MFA program at St. Francis College. Woo woo, go Terriers, in summer 2020, and I was the only playwright in my program. But I was a poet, so I did all the poetry stuff, and I was like, but I got this play though, and I think I can do something with this. I still didn't know what it was gonna be.

[6:16] Shae Marie Tolbut: And so the reason behind the show was Toni Morrison always said, one of my favorite authors in the entire world, always said that if there's a book that you know you haven't read, you have to be the one to write it. It's my favorite quote in the whole world, and so I thought about that quote, and I thought about Russell G. Jones, and I said, you know what? I need to write the characters that I wanna be. And then of course, you know, by then we knew who Issa Rae was, right? I was an Issa Rae fan a long time ago when she had Awkward Black Girl on YouTube, you know what I mean? So I was just like, always inspired by her, you know. I was inspired by people like Ngozi that would write their own stuff and star in it.

I was super inspired by Tyler Perry, you know, and I was like, maybe one day I'll write something where it'll be a plus size black Shiro, and I can play that Shiro. That was my thought process. So as the story started developing, I got more and more characters, and I was like, what if we saw not one, not two, not three, but five black fat women on the stage at the same time without anything in the play being about their size? Have you ever seen a show like that? No, I'm trying to tell you, no. Motormouth Maybelle, one of her songs is literally called Big, Blonde and Beautiful. Mama Morton, about her being big. Who else? That's really what, the only two? And then Effie clearly was turned down because she was fat.

Right? So whenever there was a big black woman that was in a musical or in a show, it was about her size. I wanted to write a show in which we can see multiple fat black women on stage without any of it being about size.

[8:19] Shae Marie Tolbut: And so I wrote a play. And my hopes for this show is that it do go to Broadway, is that it do go to West End, because we've never seen a show like the one that I've written. And in my playwright note in the script, I put, if you want to put this show on, you are not allowed to change the description of my characters, and you are not allowed to put anything to the script that is going to talk about the size and the color of the characters. Thank you for being a change agent in this industry, and thank you for putting on my show. That's what the playwright note says. And so I'm hoping to change it. The name of the show, I forgot that, right? The name of the show is called Blue and Green. And that is after the Miles Davis track.

I want people to remember the show for the casting and for the story and for the message, you know. And I want to continue to create work that is going to take the intersectionalities of who I am and put them on the big stage in a very non-problematic and non-toxic way. Because we are more than trauma, right? We're way more than trauma, and I want to be an agent of black joy. There's a lot of joy in existing, right? And I think a lot of the times in theater, in movies, in film, we literally associate blackness with trauma. It is literally inseparable. So I'm like, what if I wrote Girls Trip for the stage? Right? Like, what happens when you write, you know, Dumb and Dumber, the black version, right?

Why can't we go in the theater and laugh, right? And see these bodies? Chicken and Biscuits, that was its problem. If it had any kind of problem, is that it was joy, it was funny as shit. It was funny. So much fun. So much fun. And I'm gonna say this on record, I don't care. The fact that Tyler Perry, I'm gonna take it there. The fact that Tyler Perry is not recognized by the Academy, Broadway or Hollywood, but y'all have chosen to produce shows that literally rip off his style is wrong. Y'all need to call Tyler Perry up and give him checks. And I said what I said of Strange Loop. And I can say that with love, right? Because I'm part of that community. I inhabit black queer fatness, queerness. I'm saying it from a place of love. We don't have to make work that parodies other treasured work in order to be put and be made visible.

[11:18] Shae Marie Tolbut: We all can exist. There's room for everyone, and everyone's style, there's room for it too. And it's not that that doesn't mean that you on Broadway is more quality than someone that's on the Chitlin circuit. I said what I said. Put that on record. Quote me, at me. You got fans.

[11:43] Lauren Van Hemert: I kind of do.

[11:45] Shae Marie Tolbut: I'll be thinking in that way though. But I guess so. You know, I don't know that you have fans. You have sisters, you have sisters.

[11:55] Shae Marie Tolbut: I do. And I feel like when people go out into the world and they tell the truth, you're gonna get people that align with you because you gotta tell the truth. It's a lot of people going around yapping, yapping, yapping about nothing, being performative and not really being allies, and really telling the truth. And I just tell truth when you need to tell truth, you know, and I cannot agree with something that you've done or you've written and still love you, still respect you, still hold you in the highest regard, but I have a critique about what you said or what you did. We need to make space for that. We need to make space for that. But no, Tyler Perry needs his check. Thanks. He also needs to have a show on Broadway. Thank you. Like yesterday. Like 10 years ago. I said what I said. And anybody that creates, I don't care who you are, your community or people are going to have critiques about your work.

[13:06] Shae Marie Tolbut: Why is it that and he has a pattern? Anyone who does entertainment and who blows up, you're gonna have critiques about them. But that don't mean you have to minimize the impact, right? Like all this stuff can exist. I feel like this has been a thorough line that we've been talking about on BroadwayCon, right? Is like yes, but and yes, and like both of these truths can exist at the same time.

[13:35] Lauren Van Hemert: Let's talk about what you're doing here at BroadwayCon, other than hanging out with me, because you know that's just I want to be here, Balor.

[13:41] Shae Marie Tolbut: That's because you were on a panel discussion this morning.

[13:44] Lauren Van Hemert: I was um the Broadway Body Positivity Project.

[13:49] Shae Marie Tolbut: Um you should follow them on Instagram. Please do Bopoe. Follow Bopo. Bopo. Um, and it was such a powerful discussion because we hear these words body positivity, body neutrality, and I feel like as we've had all these discussions about inclusivity and equity and diversity in theater, I feel like the body size issue has been excluded from that conversation.

[14:19] Lauren Van Hemert: I agree.

[14:20] Shae Marie Tolbut: So how do we become part of the narrative? I feel like this is for all parts of the industry and not just on stage, it's also backstage too. Um, as a stage manager, you don't see a lot of us back there, even though we're there. You know, people of plus size do work in tech. Um, and we are there and we're just as knowledgeable and capable as anyone else.

[14:46] Shae Marie Tolbut: Um what I have seen though, I will say this: what I have seen, particularly on Broadway, is a change in at least ensembles. So I have been seeing more plus size people on a Broadway stage than I've ever seen before. I will say that. Back in 2014, 2017, you would never have seen two plus size women in a production of the life. Um, and I've seen a few shows now where they have at least one person, and they're dancers. We're talking about dancer dancers, like professional, classically trained dancers.

[15:25] Shae Marie Tolbut: And so, what that told me was it's not that we never existed, it's you never gave us a chance. This was straight up on purpose exclusivity. That's what that told me. Because literally, just like they said in the mental health panel, the lady said, as soon as the pandemic eased up and everybody, you know, everything led up, and they were like, Oh, we're gonna open back up theater again, everybody just went back to work.

[15:56] Shae Marie Tolbut: How mysteriously did you go from no fatties to oh give me a couple fatties in two years? Where'd that come from? Because we've never had eight black playwrights on Broadway at the same time in one season, so that means you know we exist, you know we have the work, you know we're qualified, but it was exclusivity on purpose.

[16:27] Shae Marie Tolbut: That's what that told me, and so instead of being able to go see these shows and feeling the sense of pride, I felt like these mofos knew all this time that that's the sense I had, and it upset me because I'm like, I quit trying to be on stage years ago because I was like, they would never give me a chance.

[17:06] Shae Marie Tolbut: For you to say, Oh, I remember the time that plus size dancer auditioned for such and such. Let me call them and put them in this show because you know that's what it was. They have to go look in the marchives and be like, because you don't forget people that stand out. I don't care what any casting people tell me. You as a matter of fact, you remember them because you excluded them.

[17:29] Shae Marie Tolbut: Oh said that on record. You remember them because you excluded them, you put them in a no pal real quick. So you went through that no pal and you found those people, and they fucking showed you. Excuse me, cursing. They showed you. And now you're gonna put me in the show because we're making a fuss about it. That's performative.

[17:56] Shae Marie Tolbut: I can't tell you how many people have said that when they came back from the pandemic, they had weigh-ins. They have to be weighed. Because the costume maker excuses the costume. The costume talking about the costume, like you know, like costume people didn't go to school for costume design. To let something out to alter, right? To add fabric.

[18:19] Shae Marie Tolbut: One of my good friends, Michael Horrell, a legendary, you know, um, costume designer and sewer and stitcher. He was like, Oh, we could have always done that. They just didn't hire the people that we could have done it for, right? So all this to say, I'm seeing more body inclusivity now, but it's a silent recognition. It's more so like just come see the show and you'll see.

[18:49] Shae Marie Tolbut: But it's not a um, hey guys, look. Like, you're not gonna see, like, there was a picture of the seven, I think it was seven or eight black playwrights that was on Broadway, right? They had a whole little thing for them, they gave them a picture, you know, it was all big. They will never do that for the plus size people on Broadway. They're not gonna say, hey, welcome, plus size people on Broadway. They're just gonna say, Okay, okay, let's hire some fatties, so we can shut them up.

[19:17] Shae Marie Tolbut: And it's good and bad sides to everything, right? Like it's good because we don't need special recognition to just do your job. But it's also like people need to know that this is happening, so the other night when we saw Paradise Square, we saw that incredible performance by Joaquina. You spoke to her about how much her Tony win meant to you and so many others.

[19:43] Lauren Van Hemert: So can you talk about that?

[19:45] Shae Marie Tolbut: Because I think we always say representation is on stage is so important, but nobody really understands what that actually means.

[19:53] Shae Marie Tolbut: Yeah. Um, I don't want to get teary-eyed and emotional with you guys. We're not gonna cry this. I'm not gonna cry because my first and foremost, my makeup is perfect. I'm not messing up my makeup playing with you, Lauren.

[20:06] Shae Marie Tolbut: Um, no, um, I was able to meet the incredible Joaquina Kalukango. I'm terrible at pronunciation. I call it JK. Not the Roland. Don't confuse her. Um confuse her. Um, but no, I was able to um, you know, just tell her that um I don't remember what I said verbatim because I was that was an emotional moment for me, but I just remember saying something about all the little black girls that watched her win, and that's gonna be able to roll that footage back on YouTube and be able to see her incredible herstory-making performance, hers three performance, um, and um be able to see her win and being presented with her award with her other black legend, equally legendary in the field friends.

[21:04] Shae Marie Tolbut: That's gonna change some things for a lot of minds of theater kids that are gonna come up in this new next generation and shake shit up. And I didn't have that when I grew up. You know, the only people I knew was um Jennifer Holliday, and then when Jennifer Hudson came out, she only did Dream Girls, but she did the movie, and then the only Broadway show I was able to see her in was um she did she did the color purple very briefly, which I always thought she had a Broadway voice, and she should have been a Broadway star.

[21:38] Shae Marie Tolbut: But I guess you know, movies and stuff pay more. But those are like my only ones. That was only like black. I mean, of course, we had like you know, Audra, you know, and LaShanse, but they didn't look like me, you know. But all that to say, we have more examples now of black women having a trajectory where they can't dream and then dream to Broadway, and you know, seeing her win is gonna change those, you know, those minds.

[22:12] Shae Marie Tolbut: Seeing that powerful performance um is gonna change the minds of a lot of little black girls, and you know, it's you never know who you're gonna touch, you never know who's watching. And that's kind of what I just wanted to integrate to her without just being like I I'm so honored, but you know, it's just like we're we were watching you, we were watching, we were there to witness, and what you're doing here is magic, and we're watching your magic and her story, and it's like thank you for existing, thank you for persevering because I'm sure her story is crazy.

[22:46] Shae Marie Tolbut: You know, a lot of our stories in this industry is insane. What we had to give. Oh, it's so funny. Ah, feel it all over me. I was I was out with Trevor, uh uh Black Boys Do Theater. Shout out to Trevor, doing incredible work. Shout out to Renee from Black Girls Do Theater.

[23:00] Shae Marie Tolbut: And we went out yesterday, and um, we went to the Fire Next Time Festival, and afterward, we um went to the Lincoln Center and like was seeing some stuff with them, and then we went to just get some ice cream and talk, you know, talk about the journey, and the stuff that we revealed to each other, this is our first time meeting, but the stuff that we revealed to each other that we have to sacrifice in order to be in this industry would make a nun be like, what is going on?

[23:30] Shae Marie Tolbut: Like the stuff we've had to do and the stuff we've had to let go of and sacrifice and put to the side, and oh my god, you're talking about heartbreaking stuff, you know. We were both like holding space for each other and being like, we can't quit because we've sacrificed everything to be here.

[23:51] Shae Marie Tolbut: So I know that if us who's still trying to get to where somebody like JK is, you know, I mean, Trevor, you kind of live outside the like Raw Way Tony thing, but I'm trying to get what JK is. But you know, I can only imagine. And I've heard some stories, right? But I can only imagine what her journey was, and so I'm just like, thank you for staying with it. Thank you for persevering and existing and taking up space because now we know we can take up that some more of that space.

[24:26] Shae Marie Tolbut: I wanted to meet Jay Jones so bad. I know she's somewhere in the city, or maybe I think she's in another city. I think she's in St. Louis or something doing a at the Muni. But I want to meet her so bad because I just want to tell her that because of her being in Beauty and the Beast, I told myself I'm gonna get back out there and try again.

[24:48] Shae Marie Tolbut: That was the moment. That was the moment. When I saw her in that dress, I was like, maybe I need to get back out there and try again. Um and so you just never know who's watching. You never know whose life you're saving. You're never, you know, knowing who you're inspiring. And so it really is important to just keep going because you just you just never know who life you're gonna save next.

[25:13] Lauren Van Hemert: I hope you all will follow Shay Marie on Instagram at Black Stage Everything with 2Gs. Check out her interviews on her YouTube channel and visit her website. I'll put links and information in the episode notes.

[25:30] Lauren Van Hemert: If you like what you've heard on this episode, please consider subscribing to this podcast. Make a donation, follow us on social media on Facebook or Instagram at Beltline to Broadway, or visit us online at Beltline to Broadway.org.

[25:47] Lauren Van Hemert: Until next time, I'll see you at the theater. Beltline to Broadway.