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[0:09] Lauren Van Hemert: This is the Beltline to Broadway podcast.

[0:12] Lauren Van Hemert: I'm Lauren Van Hemert, your host, and on this episode, I'm chatting with Dave Karger, host of Turner Classic Movie, Musical Matinee.

[0:32] Lauren Van Hemert: When I was six or seven, my dad took me to see an anniversary showing of The Sound of Music at Radio City Music Hall. That was it. I was hooked. And after that, my dad spent much of my childhood introducing me to the golden age of musicals. I distinctly remember a showing of Meet Me in St. Louis at the Merry Go Round Playhouse in Miami, Florida. I was so small, and they had installed these airplane seats in the theater, and I couldn't see the screen. So my dad propped me up on his lap so I could experience Judy Garland falling in love with that boy next door fully. These movie musicals were my gateway into musical theater, which is why I was so thrilled to talk to Dave Karger, the host of the Musical Matinee franchise on Turner Classic Movie.

[1:27] Dave Karger: Carger says early movie musicals are significant not only for how they revolutionized sound technology, but also for their impact on popular culture then and now.

[1:57] Lauren Van Hemert: Is there a through line to this story that you're telling with the series?

[2:02] Dave Karger: Well, what I've come up with and what I pitched to the TCM people, and they seem to like this idea, is that generally I have four buckets, four categories of movie musical. And if each month has, let's say, four Saturdays in it, when I work with the programmer who works on this, her name is Millie DeChirico, she's fantastic at TCM. She and I work together to come up with four movies where one of each kind of fits from one of these four buckets. So the first bucket is the early sound musical, something from the 30s and 40s. So you're always going to have one of those. The second bucket is these big, lavish mid-century spectacles. So in that case, it's An American in Paris, you know, this big film with all the great production values in it.

The third bucket is what I'm calling a discovery title. So something that a hardcore classic movie fan will know. But if you're a casual fan or you're just kind of learning about movie musicals, this might not be one that you know as well. So the example of that for the first month is I'll See You in My Dreams, which is a Doris Day musical, which is wonderful, but not as well known maybe as some of the other ones that she did. And then the fourth bucket, I'm calling kind of the wild card. And that can be either something from my lifetime. I'm about to be 50 years old. So anything from the early 70s on, or something that doesn't really fit the typical definition of a film musical. So like a concert documentary or a movie like A Hard Day's Night or something like that.

That's what I'm going for with each month because I want there to be two movies that are, you know, tried and true classics that everyone knows and maybe they've seen before. But then I want maybe the other two to be a little bit more surprising and off the beaten path.

[3:45] Lauren Van Hemert: What is the cultural significance of the movie musical genre, particularly this golden age of musicals, which you're tapping into?

[3:55] Dave Karger: At the beginning of the sound era in the early 1930s, when the movie industry realized that they were able to incorporate sound, the idea of a film musical was one of the biggest ways to show that off and really kind of capitalize on this new technology. And so there was this complete explosion of movie musicals in the 1930s, uh, movies like 42nd Street, and then of course, all of the great Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers musicals, I think are the pinnacle of that kind of early sound, the classic black and white song and dance era of movie musicals. But yeah, the earliest movie musicals when there was this big explosion, so much so that I think audiences got a little sick of them. I think the large part of that was because it was a way to trumpet the fact that they had uh figured out this technology of a motion picture with sound.

[4:50] Lauren Van Hemert: Do you have a favorite? I know um I heard your first movie was Grease, which happened to be a movie musical. Do you have a favorite movie musical?

[4:59] Dave Karger: I have so many favorites. I mean, I love My Fair Lady. I think that is essentially a perfect movie, maybe up until the very last shot, which I have a couple issues with. But other than that, I think the songs are great. I think Rex Harrison is so charming. I love that one. I love The Music Man that's uh coming up in a couple weeks on this franchise. I just think that uh Robert Preston's performance is just charisma personified. I love watching him. I never get sick of watching that performance and that entire movie. I'm a huge Gene Kelly fan, so I love Singin' in the Rain and An American in Paris. I love all the Fred and Ginger movies. And then, you know, there's ones from my lifetime that are great too. Grease, of course, Little Shop of Horrors from the 80s with Rick Moranis and Steve Martin. There's so many, I can't even pick one.

[5:43] Lauren Van Hemert: We mentioned the 30s to the 50s. That's considered the golden age. But the last couple of years, we've seen films like Chicago and Hairspray, and we've got Wicked and The Color Purple coming up. Are do you think we're entering a new era or or a new renaissance of movie musicals? Is the movie musical genre making a comeback?

[6:06] Dave Karger: I would love if that was true. Um I'm not sure it's true. I would love it if it is. I do feel like there's this skepticism amongst younger moviegoers about musicals. Not on Broadway. I think people are willing to go with it on Broadway. But I just feel like there's a lot of people out there who get weirded out when characters start breaking into song and dance, and it's not, you know, a musical number that's at a rock concert in a movie or in a nightclub in a movie, but it's just when someone's kind of singing about their feelings, they get all freaked out about oh, this is just weird. Doesn't feel weird to me. I think it's great. But and I do think that you every once in a while you have a La La Land or The Greatest Showman or something that really takes off.

Um, or a lot of these Disney animated films. I have to credit Disney for keeping the film musical alive in recent years with you know, Encanto and Frozen and uh all of these great films that they've been doing. I really would love it if there would be even more movie musicals. I mean, I loved In the Heights. I would like to think that we're reaching another kind of renaissance of movie musicals. I'm not seeing it right now, but I'm gonna hold out hope.

[7:20] Dave Karger: And I think part of the skepticism that you talk about is there's a political incorrectness to them that I think makes some people anti-musical. Can you talk about movie musicals, which people might find a little corny or silly?

[7:36] Dave Karger: Yeah, it's true.

[7:36] Dave Karger: I mean, I think as with a lot of classic Hollywood films, when you look at them through a lens of 2022, there are decisions that were made and moves that were made that are just wrong. Um, you know, when you look at the original West Side Story to have all of these white performers playing the Latino and Latina characters, that's it's not right. It's what was happening back then, but it just doesn't pass the smell test today. Similarly, we're showing a movie uh on as part of this franchise in a couple of weeks called Flower Drum Song, which was a groundbreaking film because it had a virtually all Asian or Asian American cast, um, including, you know, people like James Shagetta and Nancy Kwan.

But Nancy Kwan, who can sing very nicely, her voice was dubbed by um a white singer. So there are aspects, you're right, there are aspects of these movie musicals that just that that rub people the wrong way. I encourage everyone just to learn about the history, and you don't have to love everything about the decisions that were made behind the scenes to still appreciate some of the good things about some of these films. The cool thing about these movies' place in entertainment and cultural history is that they do spawn uh interesting ideas for further films. They do inspire people in the music industry to take their career a certain way. And in my opinion, movie musicals are the best showcase for the most jaw-dropping overall talent in movies ever.

Because not only are these people acting brilliantly, they're singing, they're dancing, they're doing so much more than just a typical dramatic film. I think that's super special. And the other thing that strikes me about the movie musical genre is it really helps paint a historical picture of what was happening in America. And I think to a movie or a story like Annie, which has its roots really in politics. And it's for me, that's the significance of it, is this political kind of undercurrent. So I love that too.

[9:57] Dave Karger: Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's like when you have to take medicine when you're sick. If it has a cherry flavor, it goes down easier. I think some tough subject matter can go down easier when it's in musical form. Look at Cabaret and all of the serious subject matter that that film eventually takes on. I think the fact that it's in this medium of the film musical, it's kind of stealth in its depiction of the tougher material. And I think it's very effective because of that. You've interviewed so many um movie stars that people know on the red carpet at the Oscars. If there were any movie stars from these old movie musicals that you could go back and interview, who would it be?

[10:43] Dave Karger: Gene Kelly. I love him. And I wish I had met him, but I you know I never had a chance to. He when I he was already gone by the time I was doing you know these kinds of interviews. And uh I'm just in awe of everything that he was able to do. And I would have loved to have asked him about just where the vision came from because I really think along he's one of the people that really changed the trajectory of the film musical and just gave it such gravitas and such athleticism and charm. I just am such a fan of his. So he really taught would top that list for me.

[11:20] Lauren Van Hemert: You graduated from Duke, and I wanted to talk about that because we are based in Raleigh Durham, North Carolina. And you say it was a film class at Duke that kind of was your gateway into this amazing career that that you have.

[11:36] Dave Karger: I grew up as someone who was obsessed with music, particularly, also television and movies, but really music was my real love. I just used to sit on the floor listening to 45s on my Mickey Mouse record player. That's what I did all day long while all the other kids were out running around in the woods. And uh it wasn't until I went to Duke and I started taking some film classes that I really kind of began falling in love with classic film because you know, I was a child of the 80s, I came of age in the 80s, so my diet entertainment-wise was John Hughes and Steve Martin, people like that. But then when I went to Duke and started taking some film classes, I really began appreciating movies like Citizen Kane and Laura and On the Waterfront and Seven Chances, and um, and then through there, started exploring some of the older musicals as well.

And actually took a class in film music at Duke. My parents thought I was crazy. Why are we paying for a class on film music? But actually, it was very useful. But yeah, so even though Duke isn't necessarily known for being a school that teaches film or TV or arts, there were great offerings there for me once I found them.

[12:51] Dave Karger: I love this because I think so many um young people are drawn to movie musicals, but really don't understand the history. So I love that you are covering all of these buckets and everything from these classic Busby Berkeley masterpieces to Annie. What's coming down the pike?

[13:13] Dave Karger: In December, uh the first move musical matinee is The Music Man, which I've already been raving about. Um, and that of course is from that mid-century big spectacle bucket. Um, the second week is Top Hat, which is considered by most people the best Fred Astaire Ginger Rogers movie from 1935. So that's in the kind of other bucket I told you about the early musical, and then from the Dave's lifetime uh bucket, Cabaret, which actually came out like three months before I was born. But we're gonna we're gonna fudge that a little bit. Um, those are only the only three that are part of the franchise because then the franchise does take two weeks off uh during the actual Christmas season because we're just doing our Christmas marathon.

And yes, there are some musicals thrown in there, but the actual musical matinee noon Saturday franchise does take a two-week break. I'll throw one last thing in there for people who are listening to this. On one of my Saturdays in December is New Year's Eve. And on all day long on New Year's Eve, I'm showing the That's Entertainment franchise for movies back to back. And if anyone wants the perfect introduction to classic movie musicals, the That's Entertainment Films, which are compilation films of the highlights of the best musical numbers ever, that is the way to start.

[14:36] Dave Karger: Dave Karger can be seen on Turner Classic Movie every Saturday at noon. Check your TV service provider. If you like what you've heard today, please consider subscribing to this podcast. Follow us on social media, on Facebook or Instagram at Beltline to Broadway or Twitter at Beltline to Be Way, or visit us online at Beltline to Broadway.org. Until next time, I'll see you at the theater.