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[1:32] Lauren Van Hemert: Beltline to Broadway. Beltline, oh my, that's good proof about tough times. Broadway hooray. Let's all tune in to Beltline to Broadway. What do you say? You could binge any day, listening to Beltline to Broadway. Beltline to Broadway. This is the Beltline to Broadway podcast.

[2:10] Lauren Van Hemert: I'm Lauren Van Hemert, your host, and on this episode, we are exploring two works inspired by two different historical figures whom you may not know fully or may not have heard of at all.

[2:28] Lauren Van Hemert: First, you may be familiar with James Baldwin for his essays, novels, or plays, or even his fiery debates or television appearances. But James Baldwin, or Jimmy, as he's known to his community, is so much more than just a footnote or sound bite. In fact, he is the inspiration for playwright and performing artist Tristan André's work, They Do Not Know Harlem, which has its world premiere this March at Playmaker's Repertory Company in Chapel Hill. In this multimedia piece, André tells me he summons the spirit of Baldwin in an effort to reconcile his own personal journey as a Black queer artist and activist. And that is where my conversation with André and director Kathy Williams begins.

[3:28] Tristan André: Jimmy, in a lot of ways, has saved my life because you cannot not sit with his work and then not be honest with yourself. And that to me is powerful. He lived out loud, and without saying, but during the era where it was inherently so oppressive in many ways—his race, who he loved, who he decided to love, his queerness—really embodying that term queer before we have come to know what that term means. And so for me, as I got older and started to sit with his texts more, he's forced me to be more honest with myself.

[4:27] Tristan André: I think a lot of people know the fiery side of James. We have so many famous film clips of his interviews, these moments that are caught on television or these iconic film moments, him at Cambridge, him with David Susskind. We see these snapshots, which is how Americans kind of like to devour our information now. We don't have a very long attention span. But when you sit with him, as I love that when you use that word, you realize the courage the man had to speak out in the late 40s, early 50s, 60s, to be unashamed of who he was, to be Black, to be queer, to be critical of America, to be critical of both Black and white America. I mean, you're right. You read him and you have to sit for yourself and be like, "Well, who am I? What am I doing? Wait a minute, who am I? What am I doing?"

[5:26] Tristan André: But I hope people come and that they suspend their maybe predetermined image of who James Baldwin is. You know, don't just take those sound bites or the film clips you may have seen. Come and learn about him in the way that we've learned about him.

[5:41] Tristan André: I think too, the beauty of it, the beauty of Jimmy was that he was a full person. How the mainstream is aware of who he was is like Miss Kathy said, his presence often in popular culture. But his text, when you actually sit with his text, you get to witness, and that's a term he always used, a witness of being a little Black boy growing up in a storefront Pentecostal church in Harlem. That term witness was huge for Jimmy, and he used that in his work. But you do get to witness his humanity in texts such as Notes of a Native Son when he's writing his letter to his nephew in The Fire Next Time. I'm moved by Jimmy's humanity and that he was unafraid to be fully human at a time where Black people were not recognized as three-fifths of a human being.

[6:45] Tristan André: And we are not so far away from that mentality or that culture in modern-day society. So I'm just moved by the fullness of Jimmy and him being unafraid to write his story at a time where Black people were, again, as I said, seen and recognized as three-fifths of a person, and to be queer on top of that and lean into that. It wasn't an easy ride for him, honestly. He had to endure a lot, but in his latter years, as he was getting older, he began to embrace all the slings and the rocks that were thrown his way. That life, even the things he had to endure, made him James Baldwin, or as his community recognized him, Jimmy.

[7:40] Tristan André: We are in an oppressive time in our history again. We had this uprising after George Floyd was murdered, on top of which we have had constant attacks on the LGBTQIA community, the Black trans community. So talk about the significance of bringing this work to the forefront now because I feel like we are in a moment, and the moment is right for this piece.

[8:14] Tristan André: Yeah, it is serendipitous, and unfortunately, we are still enduring violence from the state and police terror and racial terror. We are experiencing loveless times, and it's important for this work now. I always refer to this work, of course, as a homecoming. It is a love letter to myself, and I pray that it is a love letter for the young, queer, Black, trans, and gender non-binary folk. When they come into that room, they feel safe, that they are compelled by the work, that they recognize bits of their story in it. That they recognize that love is possible, that their humanity is recognized and seen, whether they directly receive that message or whether they poetically receive that message, but nonetheless, the message is received just the same.

[9:35] Tristan André: And so that is important for me. Given that we are experiencing police terror recently in a state that I am from and in a city where I went to college, Memphis, Tennessee, I recognize the city, I recognize the hegemonic state of the city, actually, and the segregation that is still ever-present in Memphis. It is a highly segregated city, and the populace makes up Black people, who make up the majority of the populace in Memphis. And so it is a bit sobering when people like Tyre Nichols' life was taken. And yeah, I recognize that, and that story is very much so pervasive in my own. When folks come to bear witness to They Do Not Know Harlem, there is a direct correlation between what we just witnessed in the city of Memphis and what is happening and what Jimmy was discussing in his work and what we are interrogating in They Do Not Know Harlem.

[10:56] Tristan André: I think something that's really interesting, and it's great to hear—that's a great question, Lauren—because the last time that we did it, and I guess Tristan, that was right after you had graduated, right? At Duke, and we had filmed it. Tristan had a beautiful short documentary made, and we were looking at it the other day. It's so interesting because I was like, "Wow, that wasn't that long ago," but because of how the world has changed between George Floyd and COVID, it feels like it's a long time ago. So we have talked a little bit about him coming back to it at this point in his life and just, you know, what's different. He's different, the world's different, I'm different. One of the things I think I love the most about the show is that you have an experience.

[11:47] Tristan André: I'm gonna use that word, and I hope I don't throw people off or make people go like, what is she talking about? But I mean, you're bearing witness to humanity, so there is an experience that it's gonna happen for the audience in the room, and that it's such a human experience, and um that is a uh an amazing and invaluable gift that I think the show is gonna offer. Because we don't right now, I feel like a society we're just so stuck in our little, you know, circles of you know, red and blue or gay and straight, whatever, you know, just name any of them. Black or it doesn't matter. You can just pick two or three that you probably are in. Um, but I think what will happen in the room is that you will experience something, and you will be the audience is a part of the play.

And uh don't want to scare anybody, we're not gonna we're not gonna make you get up and do improv on stage. But I mean, there's movement, there's song, there is and and just the nature of who Tristan is as a performer. Um it's gonna make an experience that the audience will will walk away um feeling changed, you know. And I don't even want to say what that experience will be, because that's not the point of it. We're not trying to dictate an experience, but it it it's an invitation to be uh into your your own humanity and into Tristan's humanity and James Jimmy's humanity. And what truly strikes me about this creative process is it really has been a communal effort. Can you talk about that?

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[13:50] Tristan André: Uh I'm a child of the diaspora, and all art I feel is, you know, in Western in the Western aesthetic of art, like our process is often so isolated and it's so secluded. And I as I begin to write this material, I was so fascinated to really commune with others who really embraced Jimmy in their life in a way, and that in a way that was unique and distinct for them. And it was important that I it was important that I collaborate with so many of the people who have inspired me and throughout the community. And that was, and that to me is how you know that this story, a story lands, is if you have folks involved and whether they're giving directly giving feedback or not, um, they are in conversation with the work.

The work inherently feels so diasporic. It is this time travel from you know ancestral slave trade to now. And we reference in the script, there's a section in the script called the Patent Juba, uh, which it was which was a dance that was an act to call back to the ancestors over the ocean. And so um that to me just felt so like the process is the creative process is so communal, it's inherently communal, and not in a way where not in the way where we show up with the script, the actors come into the room, we're in this rap company, you know, you we get up, the actors, we do our table read, you know, we break down the text, we you know, we do all that dramaturgical work, which is uh essential and there's value in it.

Um, but I think that there's also value when we can embody the work, we can simply embody the work because that's also how we learn. And um oftentimes, in our uh how we're traditionally trained in these academic spaces or these in these institutions as a whole, uh, is that it's so it's a cerebral process, it's an isolated process. And to me, what's exciting and interesting is having community members having friends involved in the work, people who you trust, people who love you and you love them in return, folks who do uh anticipate the success of the story, um, and they're honest about what they're witnessing, they're giving you feedback that is root deeply rooted in love, and um it's is and that to me feels thrilling, it feels exciting, and it feels inherently creative to me.

[16:48] Tristan André: Traditionally, theater, commercial theater, is created for white audiences. I I don't feel like this work is. I I feel like it's more of a love letter or an invitation for audiences who don't usually see themselves represented on American stages. So, who is this work for? Who who's the audience for this work? I'm like Jimmy right now, where he got asked that question where he's like, 'Do you write for black? ' The author was like, 'Do you write for black people? ' He says, 'I write for people, baby.' I think that the center of at the heart of it, yes, you know, I am directly, you know, black pe uh black people are, you know, I want them to come into this space and recognize their story. But this story is also for those who stand in solidarity with black liberation and those who have been participants in uh a hegemonic culture.

This this work is intended for people, is intended for people at the heart. Um, but yes, you know, black people do act as um at the center, at the center of the narrative, you know, um, but those who also stand in solidarity with with black liberation because as a Trisha Hersey of the Knapp Ministry, who just um I sat with her work called Rest is Resistance, and she says black liberation is a bomb for all of humanity. And um, so yeah, this work is for, you know, at the heart, it's for people and those who stand in solidarity with black liberation.

[18:27] Tristan André: That's right. No, I mean I think it's so important that we don't try to uh uh codify it or try to say, I think I I live for the day when we can just get past that and be like, yes, unapologetically black. If I'm standing in a role, if Tristan's in a role, we are who we are. We are who you see. And and and that should be enough of a story for everyone. But again, you know, I think also it's for the trans community, it is for the queer community, it's for it's for you know all of us who have been victimized by um uh capitalism and white oppression, and those who have participated in it. You know, I also think that the work that has to be done is like, you know, there's a lot of work that, as you know, our white community knows, there's a lot of work to be done, a lot of problems that black people cannot solve.

So being in the space together um is really important. I interviewed Lauren Gunderson, another playwright, who told me that all theater is an act of protest. Is your work as an artist and activist a form of protest?

[19:35] Tristan André: One way of protesting is sharing your story and your experiences in a in an honest and a truthful way. And I've I am fortunate and blessed enough to be tapped in that way, uh, where the art is much larger than myself. Um that it is an opportunity for me to relate, and uh for me to really um share uh my experiences, whether it be through you know uh true a classical script where I'm you know having to play a character, and or in the context of this work where it is me literally telling my story in an artful way, in a way that is honest and truthful, and uh from my own personal experience, and I think that that is important we that we do that as uh creative people, that we are honest in that way, and yes, it is yes, art is a form of protest. It is it is inherently radical, truly. Um it's subversive. Uh we as creative people, we are outliers, as Jimmy Baldwin says, you know, um artists must disturb the peace.

[21:03] Tristan André: The world premiere of They Do Not Know Harlem opens in previews March 1st. I'll put additional information in the episode notes. Shifting gears to another new work, an opera, Omar draws inspiration from the 1831 autobiography of Muslim slave Omar Ibn Said. The opera was co-commissioned and co-produced by the Spoleto Festival in Carolina Performing Arts at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill and marks the first operatic work for acclaimed musician Rihanna Giddens and renowned film composer Michael Abels. Abels tells me he's wanted to write an opera for quite some time. So when Giddens approached him to collaborate, it didn't take him long to say yes. Here is our conversation.

[22:14] Lauren Van Hemert: But I I read that you were turned on to opera when you were young because a teacher told you opera was the movies before there were movies.

[22:45] Michael Abels: In the conception of how the music's role is in this multimedia experience, it's actually very different. People would go to the opera before there were movies, and the way in which—why this teacher of mine said that is because before there were films, people would go to the opera to have a multimedia creative experience that told stories in comedy and tragedy and involved acting, singing, instrumental playing, costume design, and production. But in opera, the music is expected to be the primary storytelling art, and in film, it's the film that is the primary storytelling art. All the others are in service of that one, and in any collaboration, you do need to know who the boss is because there needs to be a final decision.

In opera, the music is all completed before any of the other collaborators come on board, and so the music serves as the blueprint. Occasionally, there are places where suddenly the way it was staged, it was like, "Oh, we need more time right here before this next part begins," because this character's all the way on the other side of the stage, and he can't come running over because why would he be running at this moment?

[24:26] Michael Abels: It's very out of, you know, and there needs to be a set change, and even though you anticipate those things when you write an opera, it's like, okay, well, if we were just in this location and in this next scene, we're in a different location, what's going to happen on the stage? You know, is that going to happen? Is it going to pop like a film? No. The stage has to change, and you better write some music that accompanies that, or it's gonna be silent or something. So anyway, you do those things, but the music still, when you stage it, sometimes needs a nip or tuck here to make it work. But the stage designers, they all start with the music as the blueprint of how the story is going to be told.

In film, the blueprint is the script, first of all, but then the script gives way to the way the film is shot. It's really the director's medium, and the director is in charge. The director is the primary storyteller, and the director operates through, first, you know, uses the script as the framework, but then works with all the designers and the director of photography to shoot the film and finally to edit it in a way that is not only visual but also takes place in time. The reason that music works so well with film is because they're both arts that take place over time, and it's a weird concept, but time is really the canvas of music, and it's the canvas of storytelling. If there wasn't time, you couldn't tell a story because it takes place, it's a journey.

So the journey of music enhances the journey of filmic storytelling, but it's meant to enhance, not be the primary focus. So the music often comes as one of the very last elements of a film because the film must exist in time, it must be edited together in some form before the music can begin to enhance what is already there. And then often the editing of a film changes a lot in the process; it's amazing how much storytelling is present just in the editing and the pacing of a film. But when that happens, the music invariably has to change to match the film, not vice versa. Most of the time, the music adapts to the way the pacing of the film is decided by the director. The director also decides whether the music is working.

It's not just the composer's vision; it's whether the director believes that the composer's vision is working according to the director's ears. And so there's a lot more, as much as the music feels like an equal co-partner in all of the production, the choices about how the music fits into the movie are made much more collaboratively and made with the director being the final say.

[27:43] Michael Abels: Whereas if I saw Omar at the Spoleto Festival, there's this ephemeral quality about theater and opera that I think is so exciting. But does that change pacing? Does that change how you compose? Does that change how you approach a work for the stage because there's this ephemeral quality to it? Interesting question; that's an interesting question. I never thought about that. What occurred to me is that, well, yes, you know, when you see Nope, you're gonna see the same film. I would suggest that, you know, art always takes place in the moment that it's created. And even when an art is attempting to be a period piece, it still takes place in the view of the year it was created of that period, if you know what I mean.

And so someone who sees Nope in 10 or 20 years is gonna be, I mean, I can say this about Get Out, which was a, you know, Get Out. I am blessed to be able to say I think it's gonna be a film that's studied in the future because it's such a textbook perfect, it's a perfectly made film, aside from what it says, aside from its messages. When you combine it with its messages, it becomes a film that you must study to understand American film. But how its jokes are going to land in the future are very different than how they landed in the year it came out because how Get Out lands today, being only seven years later, is so much informed by culture that you could almost say that you're watching a different film than had you watched it, you know, on the weekend it debuted.

But even though in its parts it's exactly the same. But I think that, I mean, the beauty of live performance is that even if you saw it last night, it's gonna be different tomorrow night just because of the nature of live performance. And that's all of us who love live performance, that's one of the features of it; that's why you'd go back and see a show again is part of it is to love the variation that happens with people creating a new experience for you. I don't think that can possibly influence how I write as a composer because it's all the performers that bring that, you know. When you're a concert music composer, I explain to people that it's a lot like being an architect. Architects don't build buildings; they make pictures of buildings.

They draw pretty pictures of what you ought to do if you were gonna make a building. Now many of them become, you know, go into the art of building the building, but the building of the building can be entirely separate. And so, and the building doesn't exist on the page; it exists in the space when it's made for people to experience in the way that they can only when it's real. And that's how, you know, the score to Omar is just a blueprint, and it's how people bring that blueprint to life that make it what it is, and that's gonna be as different from year to year or generation to generation as it is from night to night. And so I hope I live long enough to see, as much as I adore this production of Omar and can't imagine any other production, I actually look forward to someday seeing another production only just because of what I might get out of it and how I might experience the work.

And if you notice, I'm speaking about it very much like I didn't even write it because when you're experiencing, when I experience it as an audience member, I obviously know it better than everyone, but at the same time, I'm enjoying experiencing it as an audience member.

[31:29] Michael Abels: So do you feel the same way when you see the movie? I'm gonna go back to the movies now. Do you feel the same way if you're sitting, you know, flipping through the channels and Get Out is on or Nope is on? Do you feel the same way? I do because, you know, when you first, when it's first complete, there is a tendency, at least for me, to be, you know, we're always our own worst critics, and so I tend to be very self-critical of things. But there's a point that you, but I've also realized this early on when I thought, you know, if that's all you're present to, you're gonna miss the entire reason that you're an artist. Like you're gonna miss the entire reason that you would do anything that's difficult or challenging or something, or, you know, and so at what point are you gonna allow yourself to have enjoyment?

It's really up to you. And when presented with that, I know that at that point it's completely out of my control, and it's about, you know, it's about the experience that the audience has. And I fully believe that even in a story like a film where you're being told what the plot is pretty literally, that your experience of that, that's truly what the experience is. Like what the individual audience member perceived and gets out of a film or an opera, anything is what the experience is meant to be. So I do appreciate things as an audience member. And I like, for example, with Jordan's work, he, on Jordan Peele, he's so, he knows, I feel like he knows every single cultural reference that is possible.

I don't know how he knows them, but I've just seen him; it's in his work, and it's the way he speaks too. He gets every, you know, something that occurs to you in one form, he'll see a real relationship to something else that no one else would have seen. And so in his work, he shows you how he sees the interconnectedness of everything. And so I, not being, seeing the world like he does, still get things like the second time I saw Nope completed, I got things from the story that I did not get, having even worked on the film myself. And I love that I can get that out of his work. And you can tell that I thoroughly enjoyed that experience just as an audience member and an observer, even though I've participated very acutely in creating what it is. That I think is the brilliance of his storytelling; his ability to tell story is just brilliant.

[34:11] Lauren Van Hemert: Your compositions have been described as hip hop, classical, baroque, folk. How would you describe your musical style?

[34:22] Michael Abels: Well, I used to think that I didn't have one, and that was kind of a bad thing because a lot of successful artists are known for a thing. And you can hear, you know, oh, that's so and so, and you can just tell the music came from so and so, and that becomes, on the artistic side, that's a thing that people really admire and are drawn to, but also on a business side, it's really good for business when you have a brand, you know. So I used to worry that I didn't have that sort of identifiable thing, but then I came to realize that I'm like a prism through which all of our influences—like people ask me, well, what are your influences? And I think, well, how do you not be influenced by every single thing you've ever heard?

And now that we live in the technological age, how is it that you haven't heard everything? So I feel like if you're listening, you would be influenced by everything, and that would include everything everywhere, you know. But it comes down to I have a perspective about what interests me in music, and if I hear that in any genre, I'm instantly interested in that genre. Or if I hear music I don't like in a genre, I think, well, what if it had the things that I like about music in it? What would that sound like? Maybe then I would love the genre if it had the things about music that I like in it.

[35:52] Michael Abels: And so you can just tell by that expression I look at music like I like a it's like a sonic Lego kit like well it could go together this way or it could go to this part could go over here and that wouldn't that be interesting and so genres are fascinating because you can you can evoke them by pulling out the things that I that make people think of that genre but I think of them as as building blocks of music that I might put stick to other things um and and that therefore that idea of how to construct music that way that's my brand like that's what my my that's what my genre is and if you think of it that way then when you listen to my music you can hear the things that make me who I am kind of happening in all of the music even though it's not the same genre.

[36:42] Michael Abels: And that's that explanation does not you know if you're gonna have a genre, you need to boil it down to one or two words. So my genre is not a one or two-word explanation, it's a concept, and that's not very you know, that's not very that doesn't make for a good sound bite, but um, but that's my genre.

[37:01] Michael Abels: NPR called Omar a thoroughly American opera, and when I think of American opera, my brain goes to Porgy and Bess, and you said in an interview, this has nods to Porgy and Bess. How how so?

[37:18] Michael Abels: Well, uh, like Porgy and Bess, besides requiring a mostly Black cast, um, the piece also um in part takes place in Charleston, and so I think it would be almost wrong to not have some connection to Porgy and Bess because I think the connection would be made, whether we chose for it to be or not, but we did choose, and it's we you hear it most in the second act when um when Omar's on a plantation that's a uh a happier environment compared to the one he was in, and I think that and and to me, well, no, there's a couple references. That's one reference.

[38:10] Michael Abels: In the earlier in the in the first act, when he first arrives in the US, there's what I think is a nod to Porgy and Bess, um, because it's his first arrival in the new world, and I don't know if anyone else get will get what the reference is, but there's a transition to the to scene three, and that's and to me inspired by by Porgy and Bess. Um, but it's not in the vocal music, and and there's no, there's no quote or anything like that, but there's, I mean, the second act when when he's on the plantation in Fayetteville, um it there the the harmonic language is very much um sort of jazz influenced.

[38:49] Michael Abels: And there are some, I think there's some progressions that would evoke um orchestral music of about the 1930s. And even though it in the opera in that moment is it's about 1810, and uh it the beauty again, the beauty of opera is not that it's not meant to be uh, you know, it's not meant to be a history lesson, it's meant to be an emotional experience and telling someone's journey.

[39:19] Michael Abels: And so I think that the harmony in that section is meant to evoke a certain way that we people who have lived through cinema in the 20th century see plantation life as it's depicted on the screen. So that's why that harmonic language works in that scene, I think, is because it's a little bit cinematic in the way it tells uh uh that part of the story. Um and it also, but more in general, Omar's story being a is a is actually a quintessential American story, and that's a thing that uh we need to identify and embrace and be not proud of, but be to understand that it is essential to understanding who we are, and therefore hearing all of the styles of music or many of them that were invented or heavily influenced by African American people is is what would make a quintessential American opera.

[40:33] Michael Abels: And and because Omar's story is an American story, it gives us perfect us, Rhiannon and I, perfect excuse to draw on all of those styles of music when they are natural to the story.

[40:46] Michael Abels: I I also feel like uh American opera is having a bit of a moment.

[40:53] Michael Abels: For sure. Is is there a resurgence in the popularity of opera American opera with pieces like Omar and Fire Shut Up My Bones that's making opera accessible.

[41:12] Michael Abels: Well the this question will be answered I think years from now. So you add your the answer will be uh borne out. Uh and uh you're asking me to guess. And so what I'm noticing is that I think we're in kind of a yeah we're in a bit of a renaissance of American opera and that's as someone who really loves the art form I'm really happy about that.

[41:37] Michael Abels: And the Renaissance seems to be not only in just giving more opportunity to new opera but specifically opera that is about and or written by and or starring uh people of color and that's not something that's happened often and it can't help but be a really interesting addition and invigorating invigorating addition to the art form. Um and so I'm um as someone who's getting a chance to uh be put in play rather than sitting on the bench uh it's super exciting and is is this what what we don't know and what your question implies is is is this a fad or is it a sea change and how can we know you know I I mean things times always change and so I don't know what they will change to in the future but I sure hope that the people who are getting to be on the playing field in this um renaissance are gonna create work that speaks to people in the future and is um and I hope that work is welcomed into the canon and helps us define what we think of as opera and musical theater and who is considered to be a composer of works in those genres.

[43:06] Michael Abels: I I read that you composed your first piece when you were 13 or or something like that. What would you tell your 13-year-old self now having had this career knowing what you know now?

[43:22] Michael Abels: Oh wow uh the most important thing I would tell him is don't give up don't give up um and uh also you know so much of that is the thing about artists is that each one is there there are things that artists need to learn that they all have in common. And there's a there are things you could tell any particular artist. But then there are things that each art, east artist is also a unique flower, and there are messages that only that artist needs to hear that wouldn't apply to others.

[44:02] Michael Abels: So when people ask me, what would you tell your younger self? Kind of the implication is that, and then this will apply to everybody, but it won't. Some of what I would tell myself applies only to me.

[44:13] Michael Abels: Okay. And so it's really it's really hard to coach a person both individually and collectively. Um individually, what I needed to hear was that the first piece I wrote and completed was actually so I got it performed. I got that, I got that piece performed. And so and so uh a message I would have needed to hear then is don't think this isn't so easy. Don't think this is this easy. Enjoy this. This is not gonna happen for a while. Let's not talk about performance number two. That's the one that matters. Performance number two. This is much harder than you think it is. That would have been a message only to me because my of my experience.

[45:01] Michael Abels: Okay. Um it would have been really valuable for someone to tell me that at that moment. Uh and I don't think I would have believed it from anybody but my older self. You know, I wouldn't have believed that from someone else because it was you know 13 years old. But uh any young artist needs to hear the words don't give up. Um, because there'll be a moment that you want to give up, whether it's at age 14 or at age 24 or at age 54. You know, that moment will come and you'll have to, and or the opportunity to the opportunity, the the requirement that the rest of life that is not your art requires a great deal of your time will happen, and you'll have to figure out how to answer those challenges and still be an artist.

[45:51] Michael Abels: And who you are is not defined by your primary source of income. If you are an artist and you are being an artist, then you are an artist. And people may be interested in how much money you make doing other things, but that's really just their attempt to you know to reduce you to something they can understand. And if you're an artist, you're going to be something that people don't understand. And you have to you have to be the person who carries that when the world seems not to.

[46:18] Michael Abels: And that's a message for an artist of any age. The North Carolina premiere of Omar will run February 25th and 26th at Carolina Performing Arts in Chapel Hill.

[46:31] Michael Abels: I'll put links in the episode notes. If you like what you've heard, please consider subscribing to this podcast.

[46:39] Michael Abels: Follow us on social media on Facebook, Instagram, or TikTok at Beltline to Broadway, or Twitter at Beltline to Be Way, or visit us online at www.beltline to broadway.org.

[46:54] Michael Abels: Until next time, I'll see you at the theater.

[46:58] Michael Abels: Beltline to Broadway.