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[0:36] Lauren Van Hemert: This is the Beltline to Broadway podcast. I'm Lauren Van Hemert, your host, and on this episode, I'm chatting with Michael Kushner. Kushner is a photographer, actor, producer, writer, and educator. He hosts a popular podcast on the Broadway Podcast Network called Dear Multi-Hyphenate, and just published a book that he says dismantles the gatekeeping of the theater industry and empowers artists across all disciplines and backgrounds to take hold of their careers. Here's our conversation.

[1:43] Michael Kushner: And when I saw that movie, and she was with me, and she saw how affected I was by it. Um, because I was like, I was there, and I couldn't stop talking about this. So much to the point where my first grade teacher was like, Michael, go to the library right now, leave class right now. Go to the library and look up something else, another shipwreck. Because I can't hear you, like we have to get you off the topic of the Titanic, because I wouldn't stop. And so I remember like looking up the Andrea Doria, finding out what the Andrea Doria was in the library. This is in elementary school too, and um sort of diving into that, but it was so funny because it was like with the Andrea Doria, there was like a fascination and an interest, but the Titanic, it was personal.

It was like I it was like I was there, like I remember it. So my grandma, when I came home, and this was in first grade, she had a typewriter in her bedroom. It was like a it was an electronic typewriter, it had a computer screen. I sat on her lap, and she's like, tell me about the Andrea Doria, and she was like, Well, what if we made our own movie of the Titanic, but it was the Andrea Doria story? And in the I have I have the script in my bedroom. Um in the front page, it says directed by Michael P. Kushner, written by Michael P. Kushner, starring Michael P. Kushner, uh uh technical direction by Michael P. Kushner. So, in my mind already when I was seven years old, my grandma taught me. She was like, You want to tell a story, you get to do whatever you want.

[3:29] Lauren Van Hemert: We hear the term multi-hyphenate, we use the term multi-hyphenate, you describe yourself as a multi-hyphenate. So, what does that mean in this industry? Because I think people think it means you have to sing and dance and act and do all the things, but is it more than that?

[3:49] Michael Kushner: Yeah, so there's that's the triple threat. I think when people are like, I'm a multi-hyphenate, I'm I act, sing and dance. I'm like, well, we all know the triple threat thing, and that's a triple threat. That's awesome. But I say a multi-hyphenate is an artist who has multiple proficiencies, which cross-pollinate to help flourish professional capabilities. So different proficiencies. I mean, you could justify actor, singer, dancer as being a multi-hyphenate. You could, you really could, especially with that definition and what I write about in my book. Um, but it's more about different proficiencies. And what I would do, what I would say is that being an actor, singer, dancer are different skill sets which fall under proficiencies as a performer.

Um, so my proficiencies are actor, photographer, producer, writer, podcaster, and now educator. And I have a really, you know, again, this is an art form, so I don't want to like gatekeep what multi-hyphenating is, you know. Um I don't. I welcome different conversations and different perspectives, and that's what I do with my class at NYU. But um but I have a very specific way of discovering what a proficiency is and whether or not you should add that to your artistic identity. And um that is ask it's very Jewish. It's asking yourself the four questions, right? And that's uh, do I get an income for it? Does it bring me joy? Do I have a paper trail? Like, can people Google me or if there's something um there's like an article of press that says that I'm this, you know, photographer Michael Kushner or produced by Michael Kushner.

And then the fourth one, it's the most important one, I think. Of course, does it bring you joy is important, but when it comes to multi-hyphenating, and that is um they have to cross-pollinate. And that's why I even have it in the definition. An artist who has multiple proficiencies that cross-pollinate. So performing aspect has to affect my photography aspect. The photography aspect has to affect the producing aspect, the producing aspect has to affect the writing aspect and vice versa. Like they all have to affect each other. I think having those questions helps because it helps organize your efforts. Like I could list eight million different things that I do, but if I were to do them all professionally, I don't think I'd be able to do one thing successfully.

[6:26] Lauren Van Hemert: So it's sort of is the it's it's like a guideline to say, okay, what is it that you do professionally? And how do you do it as a wholesome persona as a theater artist? That's what they're there for. If not, then if you want to do 800 things, do all 800 things, but I'd be very interested to see how organized and specific you get. There are a lot of young emerging artists who listen to my podcast. Why is it so important for artists, no matter where they are in their career, to really hone and clarify what their artistic identity is?

[7:12] Michael Kushner: That is a loaded question. Now art is art, right? Some people create art just to create art and without the purpose of it becoming commercial or them making money off of it, right? I had a student when I was teaching at NYU this past semester. They were like, Well, what do you mean I have to get paid? What if I was just creating art? That doesn't make me an artist. I said, No, it doesn't make you and it doesn't not make you an artist, but it doesn't make you a multi-hyphenate. Multi-hyphenating is a business term, it's a business perspective. It's so that you don't have to have a what I call instead of a survival job, a for now that you don't like. If you want to serve tables and you like serving tables, go for it.

Go for it. There's no shame in that at all. Um, I know plenty of people that love to do it and they want to do it. But if you didn't want to do that, how could you move away from that? So I find so I so uh answering this question is is is difficult at times because theater artists that want to be on Broadway or they want to have a career in the theater cannot do one thing without accessing the business part of their artistry. I don't want to say that they are a product, but they have to be able to know what makes them uh specific and what they can use to get into a room.

[8:51] Michael Kushner: That's why I love photographing headshots. I'm in my studio, and I have a specific questionnaire, I have plans fill out. That way, it's like a menu. You fill out the questionnaire and I go, All right, I know what to do with you. And I cater the experience based on what you need. Um, because it is hard for people to put it into words. And it is a way for me to tie in the business aspect of being like, all right, I am whatever Brandon Uranowitz aged out of, I'm doing next. You know, that is a business perspective, going, all right, he's not doing that stuff anymore. He's now aged out of that stuff. I could do that. And we look similar, you know, similar vibes to Jewish guys. Um and and I can do those things that he sort of originated.

Now I can do them regionally, or I can do them, you know, in the next revival, or whatever. That is a business perspective. People need to start asking themselves that. People don't have those conversations with themselves. So they go, they don't find the common denominators in the auditions that they want to go on. So I'm like, what are you auditioning for? Oh, just anything. Like, why? Why are you going out for anything? You're in it. That means if you look back, you are probably in an audition room every single day, maybe twice a day for the past two years. And have you booked anything? Chances are no. And it's because what's happening is that psychologically, all of this is psychological, especially with headshots.

What in my opinion is you show up the thing that makes that is right for you. Going, I'm looking at the breakdown, and I'm seeing every single thing matches me. Usually when I get a callback, it's when I walk into an audition and I go, I know I'm gonna get a callback. This is all me. And I get a callback. When I don't get a callback, it's because I showed up to an audition being like, all right, I'll see what happens. Maybe, maybe they'll like what's going on. No, specificity works. It sets you apart from everyone else because not everyone asks not everyone else is asking these questions. And I guarantee you you'll start seeing more bites because you are being more specific with how the industry sees you.

[11:09] Michael Kushner: Showing up to every single audition is very old school. It is, and the industry changes. The industry is not what it was in the 80s, 90s, 2000s, early 2000s, late 2000s. Like it's not anymore. It has changed. You don't have to be a starving artist anymore. Like, you can do whatever you want. You could do whatever you want. And it is, I don't know how much people give themselves permission to do that or even know.

[11:37] Lauren Van Hemert: When I dove into your bio, you have this rich, rich career, but I think so many people think of you as the photographer because you take everyone's photographs. You have taken everyone's headshots. I feel like the headshot is so important, whether you are a performing artist or not, because I think now everyone needs headshots, whether they're a business person or executive or performer. What makes a good headshot and what are the biggest headshot mistakes people make?

[12:14] Michael Kushner: What makes a good headshot is a point of view, it's always a point of view, and I've had multiple managers and agents tell me that ever since shooting with me their clients' submissions have blown up their auditions because what happens is we create each look with a specific point of view so that way when they submit for that story it looks like they belong as a part of the world in which that casting director is casting. So if it's an action film, we need something that says action. They need something that looks like a witch—something witchy, spellbinding, casting a spell, angular jawline—like they want that vibe, so show it to them, but also not pigeonholing yourself. You don't want to spend however much on a session and go, "This is my alphabet shot."

You go, "This is my witch spellbinding look," and who can fall under that? What other roles? Well, Eurydice in Hadestown, you can give me Lucy in Jekyll and Hyde. There are so many different aspects of spellbinding in that way. Now, if we looked at Glinda, we can go bubbly, zany, zesty, whatever, but who else is like in the Glinda realm? Well, you could think of like Diana in Diana the Musical; they're sort of similar in that musical version. You can go with something like being more chill; you can go something legally blonde. There are so many, you can get so many different possibilities out of one perspective. And when you approach your headshots like that, storytelling, like it is an extension of your self-tape, of the work session in the audition room, a rehearsal, you have to treat your headshots like that. You don't just walk in and go, "All right, let's get a picture." You go, "Nope, this is what we're doing today, and I'm gonna commit to it." That's what makes a successful headshot.

[12:14] What are the biggest mistakes?

[14:43] Michael Kushner: Not being prepared, not doing that work. That's truthfully the biggest mistake. When I go, "What are we doing today?" and I hear, "I don't know," and I'm like, "Well, you're about to spend hundreds of dollars right now. We're gonna get a photo and you're gonna look beautiful, but is it gonna be specific enough? Is it gonna work? Is it gonna get you into rooms because you don't know what we're doing?" You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You've coined this phrase, and I think you may share this phrase with somebody else, but net weaving. I love this idea of net weaving versus networking because I feel like in so many industries, networking just has become this bad word. So elaborate on this concept of net weaving, whether you're in the performing arts or not.

[15:39] Michael Kushner: Net weaving is about the other. You might be like, "I just hate networking, sorry." But if you actively switch it and you go, "I am here to weave, interweave the possibilities that I might be able to help you, and you might be able to help me. What can we create together?" What is horrible in networking is the, "So what are you working on?" or like the, "I'm gonna talk to that person and try to get them to like me because one day I'm gonna work up the courage to be like, I really want..." No, just ask them. People are looking for people to solve their problems all the time. When people come up to me and they go, "I love your photography, and I'm a photographer, and I'd love to come up and I'd love to sit in a session," I go, "Great, thank you so much.

That's not how I work. I don't have people come in the session when I'm working. But what I do is I would love to sit for you, and you could take my photos, and I could tell you what I liked about this session and tell you what to keep doing, and then I'll use the photos and there's publicity for you." And it's like I think networking is exciting because it's like I get something out of it too. I get photos. I'll give you all the trade secrets; I'll tell you everything, but I get photos out of it too.

[16:54] I love that. I also love that you've called yourself the Dolly Levi of Artistic Freedom. What do you mean by that?

[16:55] Michael Kushner: The Dolly Levi of Artistic Freedom. I think it comes out of when she says, "Ephraim, I've decided to rejoin the human race." That's my Carol Channing as Dolly. And that line really saved my life because I had a nervous breakdown in college and I didn't know I was having a nervous breakdown. And I didn't know what was happening, and it was really sad, actually, because I felt like I was losing myself and I didn't know that I had resources to help fix this, and I just thought I was like smoking too much weed. And so I stopped smoking, but I was still having these horrible thoughts, and I was like, "What is happening?" I was like, "I don't know why I have hands, and I don't know." I was like, "I don't know what music is," and I was like, "We're living on a rock floating through space, and what is love?"

And then I started seeing more and more theater and reading more and more things and studied abroad in London, and I started realizing we have been asking ourselves these questions since the dawn of time. Shakespeare writes about these questions and the weirdness of life and the existentiality of life, and I started to feel less alone from the one thing that had never given up on me, and that was theater. Being an artist and sharing passion for art and theater, television, and film artistry is like what Dolly Levi does. "Call me for this, I do this, call me for that, I do that," and I just find that to be brilliant. She's a multi-hyphenate. But I think that's what I mean is that she shares her passion for life and zest and putting two and two together and matchmaking, and I like to think I have a part of that in me, and I think that's what makes me the Dolly Levi of artistic freedom.

[19:02] Oh my god. And net weaving, she is the queen of net weaving.

[19:07] Exactly, exactly, exactly. So, what goodies are in the book that folks may not have gotten from your workshops or from your podcast?

[19:20] Michael Kushner: The goodies in there are, I think, how to be—it's the title, How to Be a Multi-Hyphenate in the Theatre Business—and sort of what I say again, this is all up for grabs, all up for conversation. What I think is the checklist of doing it, what does it start with, how do you start being a multi-hyphenate, and what do you end with? And I think they're sandwiched between two very important things. You know what the first thing being? Why do you do what you do? Which was a question that was introduced to me by my professor Cynthia Henderson at Ithaca when looking at character development. And I thought to myself, well, I think we can all ask ourselves that on a human level. So why do you do what you do?

And it ends with socially responsible artistry, which I think is very important today as we are fighting for many things, including representation and decentering whiteness and fighting for, you know, Black lives and Asian lives and fighting against antisemitism and fighting for trans rights and LGBTQI plus rights. And there's your voice in the middle of that—your voice in the middle of all of this unrest—and how do we, what is our responsibility as multi-hyphenates to contribute to those conversations?

[20:11] If you could go back and have a conversation with seven-year-old Titanic-obsessed Michael Kushner now, what advice would you tell him?

[21:13] Michael Kushner: I guess I would say be easier on myself and those around me. I think that's probably because I put everyone that I meet up on such a high pedestal. And what can happen is that if they make a mistake, it's hard for me to see them as what I once saw, I guess. Even if I try to be forgiving or whatever, but I guess understanding that we're all human. Celebrities are human; people that you know are on cast albums—these people that you idolize are humans with stories of their own and battles of their own. And to just be easier on myself and those around me, family, friends, people I idolize.

[22:14] Michael Kushner's book, How to Be a Multi-Hyphenate in the Theatre Business, is available for purchase now wherever you get your books. You can listen to his podcast, Dear Multi-Hyphenate, on the Broadway Podcast Network, and you can follow him on social media on Instagram or TikTok at the realmicha.

[22:40] If you like what you've heard on this episode, please consider subscribing to this podcast. Follow us on social media, on Facebook, Instagram, or TikTok at Beltline to Broadway, or visit us online at www.beltlinetobroadway.org. Until next time, I'll see you at the theater.