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[0:00] Lauren Van Hemert: Hi everyone, this is Lauren.

[0:02] Lauren Van Hemert: On this episode of the podcast, we are talking about mental health, emotional trauma, panic disorders, and PTSD, which might be triggering to some of our listeners.

[0:16] Lauren Van Hemert: Know that I've put a link to a resource page in the episode notes.

[0:21] Lauren Van Hemert: If you need immediate care, call or text 988 to reach a 24-hour crisis center.

[0:29] Lauren Van Hemert: Text 741741, call 911, or go to your nearest emergency room.

[0:38] Lauren Van Hemert: Please take care of yourself and each other.

[0:56] Lauren Van Hemert: Let's all tune in to Beltline to Broadway.

[1:01] Lauren Van Hemert: What do you say?

[1:04] Lauren Van Hemert: You could binge any day.

[1:08] Lauren Van Hemert: Listening to Beltline to Broadway.

[1:15] Lauren Van Hemert: Beltline to Broadway.

[1:19] Lauren Van Hemert: This is the Beltline to Broadway podcast. I'm Lauren Van Hemert, your host, and on this episode, I'm chatting with Sean Hayden, an actor, lawyer, advocate, and creator of Stage Combat: A Mental Health Story.

[1:36] Lauren Van Hemert: In 2019, Sean booked the role of Dad in the Goodspeed Opera House production of Billy Elliot.

[1:44] Lauren Van Hemert: But what should have been a dream job quickly turned into a nightmare that would have lasting effects on Sean's career and emotional well-being.

[1:54] Lauren Van Hemert: And that is where our conversation begins.

[1:58] Sean Hayden: The irony about this story is that this was not a role I ever sought out that I ever really wanted. I'd never seen Billy Elliot. I saw the movie back, you know, in 2000, and I remember loving it, but I hadn't seen the show. I never thought I was what people would typically cast as Billy's dad. You know, I'm sort of at that time sort of an aging romantic lead. And that's not usually where you go with Billy's dad. You go with a real more character actor, someone who is a coal miner. So I was asked to come in because the director, Gabriel Berry, he had just cast me in another show that we were going to be doing later that summer. So I actually, you know, we tell this story in the podcast that when I get, you know, you get that audition notice and it says Billy's dad, Billy Elliot, and you're thinking, oh no, I'm going to fall on my face.

Let me just ask my agent if I can politely decline. But then I see that it's the director that just cast me, and he's a Broadway director. So, you know, you don't insult that director, and it is nice to be called in. So, you know, my whole attitude was, okay, let me just get in there and not embarrass myself. But what I had been doing, I'd continued to study acting. And my acting teacher was really pushing me to play these, you know, damaged working-class men who have, you know, emotional scars. And so that's something I was able to tap into. And so going into the audition, I surprised myself. And there was something that really happened emotionally for me in that room that obviously the people at the Goodspeed and the director saw, and then they brought me in for a callback.

And then it was one of those auditions. And I don't say this from a bragging standpoint, but I think as actors, we all have these auditions where we feel like something special happened in the room. And that was my experience with that. And I left that audition thinking, I'm good with just that. You know, I don't need the part, but I had that moment that I created in the room, you know. I think it takes a long time for us as artists to get to that point where we can recognize those moments and celebrate those moments. Because even in those moments, we're performing, we're artists, you know. And so it would have been nice if that had been the ending of the story for me for Billy Elliot. But then I was cast a few days later and then went into production.

[4:34] Lauren Van Hemert: You describe so beautifully crossing the bridge into the town in Connecticut and seeing the Goodspeed Opera House for the first time. Can you talk about that moment?

[4:47] Sean Hayden: We describe what you're referring to as the last scene of episode one of Stage Combat, and it's that feeling of, you know, driving across the bridge, and it's this beautiful Victorian 1876 four-story theater. And it does take your breath away. And I say in the podcast, I literally gasped. I mean, that's really true. Because there's a mystique about it, right? And then what we do in the podcast, I feel like the opera house is actually, you know, another character, you know. Because that's the way it became to me in my mind in my mental health story. So there's sort of a personification of the opera house and what it stands for. But yeah, going into, you know, I say this, it was one of the happiest times of my life going into those rehearsals, feeling like I had prepared as an actor, that I was in sync with the director, it was a lovely cast. I met lovely people in various departments who were passionate about what they did. And then unfortunately, it really started to go downhill.

[5:54] Lauren Van Hemert: I want to talk about the rehearsal process for a second. Was there anything unusual about that process?

[6:03] Sean Hayden: As far as what was unusual about that rehearsal period, I just remember it being the happiest time of my life. You know, it was only once we got into the opera house that things went, you know, downhill. The only thing I will say that's unusual, but I don't think this is unusual to the Goodspeed. I say in one of the episodes, you know, Billy Elliot's strange because the father sort of has his own track from everyone else. You know, it is Billy's show, but this father is in this extremely emotional track. He breaks down crying twice a show, 16 times a week. He's the only character that sort of has that sort of track. So there was something unusual that, you know, I would do these scenes over and over, and I'm just in massive tears.

But then just everyone moves along, and it's sort of like you're a robot, you know. But that's something that's, you know, we'll probably talk about this. That's just something that's indicative of how a lot of theaters sort of treat what actors are going through on stage, that there's not a lot of support or self-care, or even just saying, Are you okay? Do you need a break before we move on? So that's what kind of sticks out to my mind. But again, I loved that rehearsal period. I loved feeling like I was on my game. I loved the character. I felt like I knew him inside and out. So by the time we went into the opera house, I was ready to, you know, put that guy on the stage.

[7:36] Lauren Van Hemert: So what started to shift during tech when you moved into the theater?

[7:43] Sean Hayden: So Billy Elliot is a very violent show in terms of the stage combat. So I'm sure your audiences know what stage combat is. These are carefully choreographed fight sequences, and they're very dangerous. I had three of them with another actor per show 24 times a week. And so we tell them the story, how those sequences evolved in a way that I didn't feel safe. I made that very clear to my employer, and I didn't feel like my safety was being attended to. And then as you're hearing the podcast, there are other things that happen that add to that that created a mental health crisis, you know, which is the focus of this season one is to show how the mental health crisis, my mental health crisis happened, and a production which started as one of the happiest times of my life.

[8:36] Lauren Van Hemert: You know, we've had on this podcast so many conversations about fight choreography and stage combat. Quite often, a dance captain or other actor is tasked with managing the fight choreography. And in that case, they may or may not be trained in stage combat. So, was there a fight choreographer on the show?

[9:00] Sean Hayden: So, Goodspeed brought in an off-Broadway fight director to choreograph the fight sequences. But as you know, the fight director comes in a couple of days and they leave. And then they appointed a member of the cast who is in the show to be the fight captain. So what you're bringing up is a very good point is what happens when perhaps a fight captain has the skills about how to execute a move. But what happens when there's a conflict between the actors, right? So this production did not have any sort of intimacy coordinator. Many times that person can come in and when not only for, you know, intimacy direction, but to help mediate when there is some sort of issue. And so the story of Stage Combat is what happens when there's a conflict, but the people in charge are not handling it, it's not being addressed.

They're just hoping it's going to go away. And then what is the effect on that on the actor in contributing to a mental health crisis? This is an industry that's not like any other because we are asking the employees to do things that no other job asks them to do.

[10:29] Sean Hayden: Many times you're going to have inexperienced actors, you know, that can lead to conflict. And so I think theaters need to start looking at it's not just enough to have a general manager that gives you your contract. How are the theaters equipping themselves to anticipate that you are going to have caste conflicts? We have them in every show. And particularly when it involves simulated violence on stage. There's a potential for someone to be seriously injured, not to mention the mental health component. So I think theaters need to start looking at that. You know, either you've got to have a really great HR person that is trained in conflict resolution, or you need to start, you need a new position.

You need someone that's going to be there to handle these things. The theaters need to recognize this is part of our jobs. Because as the employee, I don't have responsibility to supervise another person, nor do I want it. I just want to perform the role. Look, what happens in my story is not good. But this is a common problem. And what had surprised me, and just maybe opening my own eyes, because I think in New York we tend to be very, you know, New York, Broadway-centric focused, which is not a good thing. But this is a problem with theaters and performing artists all around the country, and they want it to be addressed. I felt like during COVID, there was so much about theater and this industry that was unmasked.

There is a day of reckoning. I don't want to say it's coming. I want to say that it's here. You know, that in all industries, professions, you know, the pandemic sort of ripped the band aid off of all of that to expose a lot. But I think, and I'm sure you'll agree with this, you know, we all heard a lot about mental health coming out of the pandemic and in the theater community. But where did that conversation go?

[12:42] Lauren Van Hemert: Exactly.

[12:42] Sean Hayden: And what concerns me about all the conversations that we had during COVID around equity, diversity and inclusion and creating safe spaces for actors, is that now that theaters have reopened, I'm afraid we're shifting back to business as usual. Yeah, and what's interesting too is the movement that you did see after the pandemic, you saw the movement from the theaters on Me Too and DEI, right? So a lot of these theaters, including the one I was working at, you know, they have it on their website about diversity, equity, inclusion. But if I do a survey of the major theaters in this country, so that's one issue. So they started to, but did they are they going far enough? I don't know the answer to that.

What I do know is I have not seen as a result of that push that came out of the pandemic anything about mental health other than the initial lip service. Now, why did we get a big push? Because we had a high-profile case with Harvey Weinstein on Me Too, right? We had the George Floyd protests to push on DEI. Now, that's another question. What is actually being done now that they recognize this is an issue and they say they're devoted to making change? But what I have not seen, Lauren, I have not seen anything on mental health. And I would press people to say that if you look at the mission statements of these major regional theaters, do you see anything that says we are committed to supporting and protecting the physical and mental health of the performing artists on our stages?

Where is that? Let's kind of talk about what's happening here. You know, theaters they sell tickets, and that ticket is being exchanged because, in some manner, there are vulnerabilities of performing artists that are being exploited on the stage. Now, there's an exploitation of that, that those performing artists are not being cared for. So don't you want your money to go to an organization that respects and is protecting what you're seeing on stage? Not only is it in the best interest for your performing artists, but that's what your audiences want.

[15:05] Sean Hayden: Billy Elliot opened September 13th. So talk to me about opening night.

[15:09] Sean Hayden: Well, opening night was not a happy experience for me. Things came to a head in the stage combat sequences during the fight call. So if your audiences know what a fight call is, it's a mini rehearsal to run the fight sequences for their safety. You know, it was not a happy time for me. It was a time of really feeling uncomfortable, of feeling unsafe, on feeling that things were not being resolved. And so that really lays the groundwork for what ends up happening about two weeks later, when I'm in full mental crisis. And now let's talk about that night in September 28th. What happened during that performance? In the story of Stage Combat, you will hear that there's a lot of things going on behind the scenes that this is what's interesting about this podcast story.

There's two sets of stories. There's a storyline I know nothing about that I won't learn about for two years. But then there's enough that I do know about that is creating enough stress on my mental health. So to not give away the story, you know, we'll leave it at that. But what became very apparent during that performance that there was something wrong happening in my body. There was something happening, and we dramatize this in graphic detail. The way it was hitting me, Lauren, was the predominant symptom was dizziness and shortness of breath that I felt like I was going to pass out at any moment in the scenes. And so what happened at the end of that performance, and you know, we actually this is the cold open of the first episode.

So we tell the audience that I collapsed, and then we kind of work our way back like a true crime story. Many times this podcast sounds like a true crime story to show how did it happen moment to moment. And then I collapsed. I was some crew members dragged me off the stage. I started sobbing uncontrollably in the wings in the arms of my understudy of all things. So can we get any more dramatic than that? And I blurted out they have to do something. You know, it's one of those moments where it just kind of comes out of your mouth, and then you have a moment where it hits you. I heard what I just said and I said it again. So that was my first panic attack, and it would not be my last. Panic attacks are terrifying.

I told you I was diagnosed with PTSD about six years ago, and it was physically and emotionally terrifying. I thought I was having a heart attack, and my husband rushed me to the hospital because we were so sure that I was in cardiac arrest.

[18:33] Sean Hayden: Yeah, so what you are having, and what I understand is you know, the most extreme panic attack where you do feel like you're going to die. You feel like you're having some sort of cardiac experience, and you go to the ER. This is a common story you hear. So, and I'm sorry that you experienced that. That must have been terribly, terribly frightening.

[18:53] Lauren Van Hemert: You know, it was, and I say it and I share it here because I think sometimes we gloss over how serious panic attacks are. People who have had them don't gloss over them at all, but people who haven't had a panic attack often say, Oh, it's just a panic attack, get over it.

[19:15] Sean Hayden: Yeah, and that's the story of Stage Combat, you know. The reason I the impetus for putting this podcast together was exactly what you said. Because what happened to me was minimized. And to be honest, just ignored. But what people said to me, you know, the other side of that is they would say, Oh, I didn't think this would happen to someone like you. Now that's loaded, and I've talked about this many times. It never comes from a bad place, but you know, what does that mean? Do we expect it to happen to certain people? That doesn't seem right. But the thing was, then, then let me show you how it happens. Let me show you moment to moment. And if you've heard the podcast, we take you moment to moment, and we show you how all these little moments, how they build up in the mind.

And that creates a mental health crisis. That creates the panic attack. And that creates the body losing control and saying that I feel like I am in such acute danger that I can't be here anymore. And so that's why I collapse. And it's that, you know, it is that loss of control that's so frightening. And I hope the podcast, for people that don't understand panic attacks, or say something like, You've heard, you know, get over it. I hope it makes them think about panic attacks and mental health in a different way. What was Good Speed's reaction?

[20:45] Sean Hayden: Well, I think the best way to respond to that, Lauren, in this interview, because let me also recognize the fact that the story takes place at one of the most powerful theaters in the country. And it's a script that has been vetted by attorneys line by line. Okay. So let me just say that. I think the best way for me to answer that was that I was not supported, and I tell the story of how I was not supported in the podcast in very graphic detail. And then the story continues in the second season as I am aware of what I'm up against. That's probably the most prudent way for me to respond to that question. But your listeners can learn the full story by listening to the podcast.

[21:39] Lauren Van Hemert: Why use the podcast format to tell the story? And why now?

[21:44] Sean Hayden: Well, the idea for the format was again, it comes back to where I was telling you when people said I didn't think this would happen to you. So, but the idea was, well, what if I could dramatize that? And so the idea was to tell the story in the first person, but in a very immersive way. So that I think, you know, people feel like they're on stage with me. A lot of people say, I feel like I'm in the room, and we wanted to really create that. So with the sound effects, with the music, there's over 20 voice actors. And so, and to tell it in a compelling way, it is a mental health story, but if we can get you in there, because that is also a very juicy backstage story. Who doesn't love that? It just happens to be what happened to me.

But, you know, so we tell that story, every chapter ends with a cliffhanger, and then we pick it back up. But what was really important to me, Lauren, is that I didn't want it to be just about my story. You know, I told my husband that if I decide to do this, I want to open up a broader conversation, you know, and recognizing that's coming from my privileged white cisgender male self, right? So if I can use my story as a window that we can have a broader conversation, and that's where I got the idea. Well, let's bring in mental health professionals. Let's unpack some of the things that you heard about in the episode. Sort of like the halftime show at a football game. What did we just see? You know.

But what was really great about these conversations, they really opened my eyes to a lot of things, to some, you know, the broader issues in the industry. And then on a personal level, it even helped me connect the dots on some things that I hadn't fully processed. So I really treasure these conversations. They're 10-minute conversations when you come off of the 20-minute story. And I think the feeling is after you've listened to a whole episode of Stage Combat, you sort of have had the full meal. You know, you've heard something that's, you know, entertaining, sometimes it's disturbing, but then you've got this analysis to kind of help you process it because the podcast is bringing up a lot of things for a lot of people.

[23:52] Lauren Van Hemert: We've had so many conversations on this podcast around body diversity on stage. And so often people tell me that those conversations really have to start at the college level, at the professional acting training program level. Do you think that these kinds of conversations around mental health also have to start at that conservatory level, professional acting training program level?

[24:25] Sean Hayden: 100%. That is exactly what we are hearing from a lot of our listeners. They're saying the damage that I have today, the trauma that I have today, it started in my acting program. It started in my conservatory, you know. It started in a program where they tore me down, tore me down to get me to produce an emotional response, but then there was no care. What do you do after you've ripped all that open? You know. We have an actor that we're speaking with in season two that still to this day suffers from panic attacks, and he traces it back to the way he was handled in that program. And you know, these programs are doing it in the terms of to make you tough to make you tough to make you tough, you know.

And the younger generation, they're saying, no, there's gotta be a better way. There's a way to be to make us resilient, to make us determined, but to also take care of ourselves, you know. And let's think about this too. Then a lot of the people that are running these, you know, these big regional theaters, where did they come out of? You know, did they come out of these same programs? I mean, so it's a cycle that's just been passed through. And when I say, you know, the day of reckoning is here, is there are enough people in the younger generation that are saying we cannot go on as business as usual. The show does not have to go on. They're saying there's got to be a better way, because this is not how we want to live our lives.

[26:09] Sean Hayden: Oh, yeah. Think about it, Lauren. It's the ultimate cognitive therapy. Now, did I expect it would have that effect? No. Not at all. But as I was doing it, you know, there was a big change that happened with me. I mean, think about it. I'm more or less kind of recreating the crime scene, you know, for lack of a better phrase, but I'm recreating trauma. One of our psychologists says that when people are working on their trauma, like the final step is that you write a narrative of what happened to you, you know. Oprah Winfrey has a quote that says, when it comes to trauma, it is the telling of the story, saying this is what happened to me is crucial. So as I was doing this, I realized the change that was happening in me to have a conversation like I'm having with you.

Last fall, I had a stutter from my trauma, you know. I don't think I've had really any stutters in this conversation. A couple of baubles, but I mean, and so that was challenging to record the podcast. So, you know, yes, my doctor said that doing this podcast was the best thing I could have done for myself. And then to give me the confidence, to give me the motor skills, the ability to be able to, I didn't expect I was going to be a mental health advocate. You know, I was telling my story, and then, you know, people started asking me to write in HR magazines of how employees can better serve their employees. I wrote an op-ed on men and mental health. So it's all been this tremendously rewarding experience that goes beyond just telling my story. It helped me make huge advancements in my own well-being, and then to take on this unexpected new role of, you know, trying to be an advocate.

[28:11] Lauren Van Hemert: And what is next for you on this journey?

[28:14] Sean Hayden: Yeah. So I think there's two parts of that. You know, one is in terms of my health and my well-being, you know. I've had, you know, a lot of people reach out to me and say, are you okay? I just listened to episode six, and I get some really not kind messages. And so I am okay. You know, I've had three and a half years to come out on the other side of this. Anxiety will always be something I have to probably manage on some level. But I, you know, just as we were talking about rituals, you know, when you're acting, you know, I have my well-being rituals that I'm very attentive to. Where I come out in terms of being a performer, being in the world of the theater, I don't know the answer to that.

That's a journey that's still in progress. And some of that is addressed in season two, the effects of what happened to me. So I don't have the answer. I'm just trying to be so grateful to see, I get emotional. Grateful to have conversations like this with you, Lauren. That is so thoughtful, you know, and that's just worth gold to me.

[29:30] Lauren Van Hemert: I love that. I think, you know, we have a mutual friend, Dr. Elisa Hurwitz, better known to a lot of people on social media as Dr. Drama, and Elisa was with us at BroadwayCon. And really, when she has been on the podcast, she and I've talked about how important having these conversations about mental health are because it really destigmatizes it, right? As she says, every time we tell our story, we take a brick out of the wall of stigma. So if Stage Combat can take out one of those bricks, you know, create an opening for someone else to tell their story, then we've done our job.

[30:23] Sean Hayden: Stage Combat, a Mental Health Story season one and two is available to listen to wherever you get your podcasts.

[30:34] Lauren Van Hemert: I'll put a link to Sean's website in the episode notes. If you like what you've heard on this episode, please consider subscribing to this podcast. Follow us on social media at Beltline to Broadway, on Facebook, Instagram, or TikTok, or visit us online at www.beltlinetobroadway.org.

[30:56] Lauren Van Hemert: Until next time, I'll see you at the theater.