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[0:00] Lauren Van Hemert: Hi everybody, I'm Lauren Van Hemert, and this is Beltline to Broadway, where we talk about the theater from inside the belt line in Raleigh, North Carolina, where I am, to the bright lights of Broadway and beyond.

[0:14] Lauren Van Hemert: I need to ask you all to do me a favor and click on that subscribe button so you don't miss any of my candid conversations and interviews with Broadway insiders and theater makers across the globe.

[0:42] Lauren Van Hemert: For over 20 years, Jeff A.R. Jones has staged fights for ballet, dance, theater, opera, film, and television. As a certified teacher, he has also trained some of the area's most sought-after fight choreographers, including Tara Nicole Williams and Heather Strickland.

[1:05] Lauren Van Hemert: But when COVID-19 shut down theaters last year, productions were canceled, and so were in-person classes, leaving certified professionals without gigs and an industry scrambling to come up with new guidelines to keep actors and audiences safe. Prior to the shutdown, however, I had the opportunity to sit down with Joan Strickland and Williams to talk about fight choreography. Here's that conversation.

[1:49] Joan Strickland: And if you follow conflict to its extreme, you get to a physical form. In order to be able to do that safely, we have stage combat. So we're not actually punching anybody, we're making it look like we're punching people.

[2:12] Joan Strickland: Some shows are light and funny and they have light and funny fights. So some shows are brutal and realistic and they have brutal realistic fights. If you just slap somebody, you're just slapping somebody. If you do stage combat, you can make choices, you can make adjustments, you can change things so that it fits a tone.

[2:27] Joan Strickland: I want to talk about the scope of it though, because I think when you talk about stage combat, you talk about fight choreography per se. When I think of that, I'm thinking weapons and big fight scenes. And there's a whole range of what this is, ranging from running into a wall or falling to the big weapon kind of scene. So what's the scope of this?

[2:52] Joan Strickland: When I start any class, no matter what the weapon is, the first class I do is always how not to fall down. It's literally how to stand, how to know where your center is, how to possess your center, how to generate movement. So you are very conscious and cognizant of what movements you're doing and things aren't happening randomly or unexpectedly.

[3:12] Joan Strickland: And it ranges from simple pushes, shoves, falling down all the way up to running gun battles and everything in between. There are eight sort of basic fight forms that are recognized by the Society of American Fight Directors, which is a national organization that is involved in the training and certification and continuing improvement of stage combat.

[3:37] Joan Strickland: I am a certified teacher, a fight director, and a theatrical firearms instructor with them. And the eight disciplines that they have identified just based on what gets used the most in theater. There's certainly things outside of this, but these are sort of the most common. You have unarmed, you have knife, you have single sword, which is your sort of Hollywood swashbuckley, Robin Hood, Princess Bride kind of thing.

[4:03] Joan Strickland: You have rapier and dagger, where you have a longer sword in one hand and a small dagger in the other hand. You have broadsword, also known as long sword. You have sword and shield, you have small sword, which is 18th century, the precursor to modern fencing, and you have quarter staff, that's it.

[4:22] Joan Strickland: Yeah, and the biggest thing about fights in a show is that we get very attuned to obvious forms of violence. So someone getting punched, someone getting thrown into something. Like it's a drastic visual change from two people standing talking to each other to somebody getting hoisted across the room. And you know, obviously once a sword is in the hand, that's a very obvious fight.

[4:49] Joan Strickland: But things like grabbing someone's shirt, slapping someone, somebody tripping over an object, you know, falling into something, like if they tripped over and landed in a chair, that can also count as stage combat because it requires an ability to replicate that maneuver the same way every time, safely.

[5:10] Joan Strickland: So you can't just trip and lay your body on the ground because you're gonna end up with a lot of bruises every night if you don't know how to fall, stand back up, fall, stand back up safely. So there's very small gestures that a lot of times I think people don't realize are part of the stage combat protocol because they only see those really big, obvious forms of violence.

[5:31] Lauren Van Hemert: Jeff has a story that he likes to tell about, you know, you can definitely tell in act two, this woman gets grabbed because you can see those three, four bruise marks on her arm because the actor is really grabbing her, as opposed to using stage combat forms of grabs, which do not leave any sort of physical mark. Plus, they do not actually take force to do them, so that in case there is an accident, something does happen one night, that actors can safely remove themselves from each other without any sort of severe trauma to one or both of them.

[6:08] Joan Strickland: Yeah, a colleague of mine asked me to do a workshop some years ago, and I've made it a standard workshop that I do a lot. He said, can you do a workshop called Why Don't You Just? And it's all things that directors turn to people in rehearsal and say, why don't you just slap her? Why don't you just grab him by the shoulders? Why don't you just fall down? Why don't you just give him a push? And it's all things that people don't think they need necessary technique or training in, but done improperly can actually cause a lot of problems.

[6:39] Joan Strickland: So there's a lot of stuff on the little end that you don't think of as stage combat, and that's sort of where the biggest area where people have problems. This leads me to my next question. When does the theater need a fight choreographer?

[6:53] Jeff A.R. Jones: Well, I mean, so there's a couple questions that a theater's gotta think through when they're kind of wondering if they're going, you know, because a script can say slap happens here, punch happens here, but a director might say, I don't actually think it needs to happen here. There's also very real budget constraints within theaters as well.

[7:12] Jeff A.R. Jones: So I think, you know, if there are those questions, if a director is entering into that space and wondering about these things, the best thing they can do is reach out to a fight choreographer and maybe just have the conversation. Because I know I'll speak for me, I don't know about these two. But if a director is just asking the question of, do I need a fight choreographer? I'm happy to have that conversation and advise on and maybe give them some things to think through to say, if you're gonna do this, yeah, you really need somebody to come in and help stage that moment. If you're thinking more in this direction, maybe not.

[7:44] Jeff A.R. Jones: So I think we've all seen bad fights on film and in movies where you go, that looks so fake. So what makes a good fight? What makes it, what are the components of it that make it really believable?

[8:02] Jeff A.R. Jones: I mean, I'll say for myself, the most realistic fights are the fights in which I kind of didn't notice that the fight had started until about halfway through. And I go, oh, they're fighting. Oh, this is really good. You know, like when a fight continues the story where the words have now failed the characters, is the best fight. It doesn't have to be the most flashy.

[8:26] Jeff A.R. Jones: I mean, these actors can be very new to the stage combat. But if it really propels that story forward, and those characters have a change from when the fight started to when the fight ended, and we now have to, as audience members, watch the repercussions of those fights, that's a good fight to me. Where I'm emotionally like, oh wow, that changed the world. Whether it's humorous, whether it's dramatic, so long as I kind of don't realize it's a fight until you know it's over, and I go, wow, that was really good. Like that really told a really good story. To me, that's the best fight.

[9:04] Jeff A.R. Jones: Tara has this great quote. I'm gonna say it for you since you haven't said it yet. About, you know, the fight should always advance the story. Right? We shouldn't stop a play, have a fight, and then jump back into the play. Technically, that's his. Yeah, a lot of times you'll see a fight where there'll be a fight going on, it stops, there's a little gymnastic event that happens, it's a fight scene, and then that goes away, they pick up, you know, where the scene left off before the fight started.

[9:29] Jeff A.R. Jones: And really, that fight, if you're looking at it in terms of like if you're gonna sit down and plot this out like you're analyzing the script, that's a pinnacle of a scene. That's not a moment that needs to be separate. That's a moment that needs to be driven by the action of the characters that are going into it. It happens, and then it comes out and has repercussions.

[9:48] Jeff A.R. Jones: The things that lead most commonly to bad fights are things being under-rehearsed. So they're still out there going, I think I throw a right cross now. I'm not sure. Is it right cross? So there's got a lot of hesitation in it, and a lot of like, uh, are you ready? The actors have training in how to communicate with each other on stage. Anybody in class, I can run at them from across the room. By the time I get to them, I can throw something and we will know what's happening because we have cues and eye contact and telegraphing and ways to understand each other that aren't verbal.

[10:25] Jeff A.R. Jones: So even if something is off in terms of distance or in terms of timing, eye contact, hold, wind up the punch again, and throw it, most people never even know this. And I think another big thing that ties into what makes to me what makes not great choreography, it doesn't necessarily it's not necessarily bad, it's more of this kind of it was okay, is that the choreography was not designed for the actor's body.

[10:52] Jeff A.R. Jones: Because a lot of things that's a little different than, you know, dance choreographers who come in with a, you know, 18 count already ready to go, is that we do a lot of the choreography in the room with the bodies on the day. And so I, you know, I have learned how to adapt to my body in so I make sure that I am also acknowledging the adaptations that need to happen for the other actors, actors who have no training, you know, the knowledge of the arm to the leg to the face is just a world that makes no sense.

[11:27] Jeff A.R. Jones: Someone who has a great dance background but doesn't have like a grounded fight background, instead of trying to fight against that, I take it full advantage of that. You know, you already have a movement style, you speak, so let's make your character incorporate that movement style because you've already incorporated it in the way you're walking, how you gesticulate, the way that you say your lines, you've already established this kind of movement style.

[11:52] Jeff A.R. Jones: I don't have to stop your movement style, do fights and then give it back to you. I just incorporate it, and that only makes it a stronger fight because it looks like their bodies. That it makes sense.

[12:04] Lauren Van Hemert: It's an excellent point. I mean, we can build some of the most amazing choreography with crazy complicated moves. If the actors can't pull it off, it's not gonna look good. And they're not gonna feel confident, and that's actually a safety issue. If your actors don't feel confident doing the moves, then they're gonna be hesitant in whatever they have to do, and that develops some big set safety issues.

[12:25] Jeff A.R. Jones: Part of our job, we've talked a lot about physical safety, it's also emotional safety. We're stepping into a setting where we're asking people to take risks, whatever those risks are. And so, how do you create trauma-informed directors? That's a big ask, right? I mean, that's a huge thing because I studied theater and have my degree in theater in college, and I had courses on how to make a light plot and how to build a set.

[12:52] Jeff A.R. Jones: I never had courses on how do you take care of your actors that you are asking to be physically risky, emotionally risky, and so we've created areas that are based in art that is about physical safety? We spend a little bit less time developing that around the emotional safety, right? Because now we've sort of addressed when there is physicality in a rehearsal space, whether it's violence, whether it's intimates, but what about those moments that are just emotionally unsafe? And where is the training for that? Or as we're doing a better job raising up different stories, we're stepping into hard conversations in the rehearsal space. So, where is the training around making sure that we're all kept safe as we enter very real and very hard conversations?

[13:45] Jeff A.R. Jones: So I think this shift that we're seeing in all of these specialties is really about creating trauma-informed rehearsal spaces so that all of us can take bigger risks and create better art all at the same time.

[13:59] Jeff A.R. Jones: When we talk about communication and triggers, especially if you're talking about weapons on stage and specifically firearm props, how important is it to communicate triggers with an audience? To be honest, I would rather be told up front all of the things I might encounter walking into this theater so that I can make that informed, consenting, conscious decision to walk in, sit in that audience, and be ready to experience the show with my whole heart. Because if I am suddenly thrown, you know, a curveball that I was not expecting, I am no longer enjoying art. I am now in my own space dealing with my own, you know, personal traumas, past experiences. I am now not here because it hurts me, and it hurts everyone around me.

It stops the show, it stops the community. Like, you know, art is a communal experience, and if we are harming those coming to see the show, we are stopping that community from that we have now created a divide from that community. The best thing that I've heard is something that you put a sign that says this show contains moments that may be of concern or may be triggering to some patrons, please see the box office if you have questions. So that way you walk in, you know there's something. If you're a person who is concerned about certain things, you can go check. And if you're a person who it doesn't matter, you can go on in. And that doesn't tell you that person X is gonna get shot in the third act. If you're somebody who can't be around gunfire, you go find out, now you know, you don't walk in and you don't have that experience and that trauma.

[15:55] Jeff A.R. Jones: Does putting a fight in a play or a musical or any theatrical production perpetuate violence, or does it do the opposite? So when I became a mother, I struggled with this quite a bit. Because, you know, you teach your child, don't hit other people, except I was saying that to my child, and then she'd watch mommy stab someone. So it didn't feel like I was really teaching that lesson. And I also do step into a lot of spaces with young actors. I did reach out to a very broad fight community as I was really struggling with this. And some of the best guidance and inspiration that I got is we can't at this moment in time shy away from the violence that is in our stories because it is a reality of our life.

And as artists, as storytellers, we have to tell the relevant stories. Now we tell those stories with violence in hopes that someday maybe our stories won't have violence, but if we don't put them up for display and say this is what happens when our stories have violence, this is what goes wrong, this is what we do to each other when this happens, we're never gonna learn from it. So I think it has to be a part of our stories right now because it's a part of our reality, and maybe someday, though I don't think it's gonna be anytime soon, we'll get to a point where our reality doesn't have violence because we have all learned from it, and we all know that it doesn't get us to where we need to be, and then maybe our jobs are obsolete, and I'd be okay with that.

[17:42] Jeff A.R. Jones: And for me, I because I've struggled with this question before too, because in real life I might be an intimidating person, but I'm the last person you want in a real fight. I am not going to be useful. And so I've always struggled with like my personhood versus my professional work. And I continue to remind myself and those I work with, you know, we are doing this because we become so numb to it in our real life. You know, I can see news report after news report of just the atrocities laid on, you know, people in the world whom I don't know personally. And it's so easy to get numb to hearing the same rhetoric, the same stories, the same, you know, five-minute news blast. And for me, doing this work every single time keeps human faces on violence, keeps my empathy attached to what happens when people are violent with each other and with themselves.

And so it only keeps reinforcing in myself that I will never let violence in the real world be okay for me. And I will continue to create stories in which the audiences have to stay alive to it, that they don't get to become numb to it, because it's a lot easier to empathize with a violent act when you're already invested in a person. And even though this is just a character, even though this is all pretend, it reawakens those parts of me that periodically go numb to those conversations. And if I stay empathetic as a human, I will not act violently to another person. I will call out when violence is done to others, and more importantly, I will be the person in the room that can advocate when it does happen.

[19:30] Jeff A.R. Jones: And one place where I think theater is better than film, you know, film, especially right now, especially with all the superhero stuff, especially with all the highly choreographed, highly stylized, you know, we go in CGI and we watch all the CGI. I mean, you know, you can do anything in film now. But you go and you watch a movie and we cheer watching, you know, John Wick shoot 30 people in the head who are trying to come into his house. But what theater has the ability to do is take an audience that's sitting, you know, a certain number of feet away, that doesn't have that sheen of the screen between them, and make a connection, and if the fight is done well, it can really make people aware of what the consequence of it all is. That it's not just flashy flashy shooty shooty, ta-da, but that something happens and there's a real consequence, and there's real human toll to it.

[20:33] Jeff A.R. Jones: So I want to talk about the Society of American Fight Directors. What does it take to get certified and what makes a person certified in fight direction or fight choreography? So the first thing you get to is act a combatant. So you train, if you train in three weapons and you take a weapon certification test, which is a practical test where you get up and you perform a scene with that weapon, if you pass three of those in unarmed, rapier and dagger or single sword, and a third weapon, the third weapon can be anything. If you get that combination of those three, you are designated as an actor combatant, which means that you are recognized as a person who is knowledgeable in the basic structures, the basic forms of stage combat, and you would be a good person to have in a show that has stage combat in it.

If you really want to do a lot of shows with fight scenes, you really want to be a character who you want to play characters who do a lot of fighting, then you can continue to train. If you train in, I believe it's six of the eight weapons forms, and you get recommended in a certain number of those, then you become an advanced actor combat. Continue training and you expand into the teaching realm and you go out and do the teacher training workshop, then you can become certified as a certified teacher. Certified teacher is a different status than someone who is certified in a weapon. Someone who's certified in a weapon, that just means that you understand the basics and you might understand them really well of that particular weapon.

It is not in any way confer any knowledge of teaching skills. When you're a certified teacher, the SAFD will stand behind you and say, yes, this person's a certified teacher, we will vouch for them. So that's the certified level of teacher. It includes study in theater, theater history, weapons forms, martial arts of every culture. If you go watch the fight in Princess Bride, whereas they're fighting, they're talking about, ah, I see you're using Benetti's defense. I know what that means. Ah, but not unless he knows he's a grippa. I don't agree with it. Capo Faro, yeah, we've studied all those. We understand, you know, theatrical concepts. We understand how theater works, we understand how to interface with other departments, dance, design, because all those things are part of it. And the biggest thing with the teaching is you learn how to teach people.

[23:09] Jeff A.R. Jones: The next sort of job title is fight director, where they certify you as a fight director based on a professional resume, based on again your knowledge of theater, your ability to work in a professional room, knowing equity rules. I mean, there's all sorts of all the ins and outs of the business parts of theater, you know. You can't just come in and say, hey, let's do this because equity has a rule about that. So you have to know what the equity rule is so that you can approach it in a way that is good. Or if you're gonna go outside, you know what you need to do to go outside of that and say, all right, we're gonna do a thing, we're gonna have to talk to equity first, and we're gonna have to get people on board, and there's gonna be extra pay involved because we're doing high falls.

High falls are fun. I want to finish kind of this line of thought. Yeah, beyond fight director is the fight master. So, yeah, there's a within the Society of American Fight Directors, there is a sort of upper tier, it's partially the adjudication body. They're the people who do the adjudicating of the fight scenes. They're also sort of a steering committee guidance board. But it is people who have proven that they are master teachers and that they are making a living being a fight director at a fully professional level. And usually they're also somebody who has done something to advance the form in some way. So they've brought this aspect into it. They've increased it by doing this or by doing that.

As somebody who's been professionally involved in theater, you know, since I got out of college, the amount of non-fight specific training I've gotten out of doing stage combat. You learn how your body works, you learn how to move your body in different ways. I have a colleague who was teaching at a graduate program, and she'd been teaching the same three weapons for a number of years, and she decided, you know, that this year I'm gonna mix it up on teach us this different weapon. And she was halfway through teaching it. One of the other acting teachers came to her and said, Are you doing something different? And she said, Well, yeah, why? And she said, Well, because last semester everybody was really, really good at coming in and taking stage.

And she said, Well, you know, last year I taught quarter staff, which is a six-foot pole. So when you fight with a quarter staff, you take up 12 feet of space. And she said, Are they seeing improvements in other areas this year? She said, Yeah. This year, they're really good at being really specific in their acting choices. And she said, you know, that's funny. I'm teaching small sword, which is all about taking the point of the sword and putting it in very specific places, and it's not here, it's here. And it's super specific weapon. So those concepts carry over into your other work just conceptually, in addition to the physical skills that you pick up. The breadth of physical ability that you learn, just in terms of how your body moves, how it works, what it's capable of, is pretty wonderful.

[26:18] Jeff A.R. Jones: These are certainly unprecedented times, but one thing I know for sure is that theater will come back, and when it does, the demand for certified professionals who are trained in best practices and safety will be greater than ever. So I would encourage you to follow Stage Combat Academy of North Carolina on social media for updates and visit the Society of American Fight Directors website for post-COVID guidelines.

[26:55] Lauren Van Hemert: Leave us a review, follow us on social media, and visit us online at www.beltlinetobroadway.org. Until next time, I'll see you at the theater.