This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:08] Al Malafronte: Hello and welcome to the Break a Bat Podcast where baseball meets Broadway, an attempt to show that my two favorite mediums don't have to live in such separate worlds and maybe even break some stigmas.

[0:19] Al Malafronte: We're happy to have you with us.

[0:21] Al Malafronte: Now let's play ball.

[0:26] Al Malafronte: Oh, welcome, oh welcome to our little show.

[0:26] Al Malafronte: This is Break a Bat, where baseball meets Broadway and sports meets show business.

[0:33] Al Malafronte: I'm your host, Al Malafronte, coming at you for the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:38] Al Malafronte: I'm gonna start this one in a very similar way as I did with our good friend of the show, Steve Whitmire, because like Steve, today's special guest has played a huge role in my life going all the way back to my childhood and in many ways has spurred so much of the creativity that I feel has helped shape me.

[0:55] Al Malafronte: Uh when I was in college, I was fortunate enough to have a production internship at Kaufman Astoria Studios where Sesame Street was taped.

[1:02] Al Malafronte: And I got to see some of the creatives up close on a daily basis, see them go about their craft and create characters.

[1:18] Al Malafronte: Uh today, one of those legends is joining us in the batter's box, more than 10 years since that internship.

[1:23] Al Malafronte: And I think as much as anyone in that performing troupe, she's as much of a pioneer as anyone in the Muppet universe.

[1:31] Al Malafronte: And that's the great Fran Brill.

[1:32] Al Malafronte: Uh, some background on Fran.

[1:34] Al Malafronte: In 1970, she was the first female puppeteer hired by Jim Henson.

[1:38] Al Malafronte: And over the course of 44 years with the Muppets franchise, she truly made a mark that has stood the test of time and has helped shape the childhoods of and creativity of audiences everywhere.

[1:49] Al Malafronte: Uh, in addition to her amazing work on Sesame Street, in which she originated Prairie Dawn and later Zoe.

[1:54] Al Malafronte: She also worked on The Muppet Show, The Jim Henson Hour, Saturday Night Live, so many other projects, always brought insane comedic wit and punchiness to all of her performances.

[2:03] Al Malafronte: And believe it or not, prior to joining Jim's team, she actually started her performing career right here on Broadway and continued to work in theater, film, and television while simultaneously performing with the Muppets.

[2:14] Al Malafronte: An Emmy Award winner, two-time Drama Desk nominee, fan favorite from What About Bob.

[2:20] Al Malafronte: Uh, just so grateful she can join us tonight.

[2:22] Al Malafronte: So, with that being said, I ask you all to please turn your attention to home plate, just beyond the marquee, now batting Fran.

[2:32] Fran Brill: Fran, welcome.

[2:33] Fran Brill: I love that introduction.

[2:36] Fran Brill: Uh, well, it's really sweet to be with you, really.

[2:39] Fran Brill: It's uh it's very nice.

[2:40] Fran Brill: I'm flattered.

[2:42] Fran Brill: I am uh I'm fanboying a little bit.

[2:44] Fran Brill: I, you know, you and I were talking a little before the show about how we go back a little bit.

[2:48] Fran Brill: Uh I'll never forget, out of like the 20 or so performers I got to work with during that internship.

[2:53] Fran Brill: It was only you, Steve, Carol Spinney, and Carmen Ospar that were kind enough to like personally invite me to have coffee and hang out in the Muppet Lounge.

[3:02] Fran Brill: That honor was not lost on me, especially as an intern.

[3:04] Fran Brill: Still stands out.

[3:06] Fran Brill: Gosh, we must have been drunk that day.

[3:08] Fran Brill: I I we're not usually that nice to strangers.

[3:14] Fran Brill: Oh my goodness.

[3:15] Fran Brill: How are things down south, friend?

[3:17] Fran Brill: Uh, things are good.

[3:18] Fran Brill: Very happy.

[3:19] Fran Brill: Life is life is good.

[3:21] Fran Brill: Uh I have had been traveling an awful lot with my husband, but of course, COVID put a stop to that.

[3:28] Fran Brill: Uh, but we're getting out there pretty soon.

[3:32] Fran Brill: Back to normal.

[3:33] Al Malafronte: Yeah.

[3:33] Al Malafronte: More time for you to get your reps in on the tennis court, right?

[3:37] Fran Brill: Yeah, yep, yep.

[3:38] Fran Brill: Gotta keep active, though.

[3:40] Fran Brill: It's really hard when it's hot down here.

[3:42] Fran Brill: Hot and humid is not my favorite thing, but um I would I would feel horrible if I wasn't doing something.

[3:50] Al Malafronte: So how's it up there where you are right now?

[3:53] Fran Brill: It's uh it's hot and humid here as well.

[3:56] Fran Brill: Um I you know, unfortunately it it's uh three o'clock on a Thursday and I'm not at the beach, but I'm here talking with you, so that's like the next best thing, if not better.

[4:05] Al Malafronte: So you you can live with that, right?

[4:09] Fran Brill: Exactly, exactly.

[4:11] Al Malafronte: And you know, I you know, I was talking about you on the tennis court.

[4:14] Al Malafronte: I know you're such a big tennis fan.

[4:16] Al Malafronte: Did you play a lot while you were up here in New York?

[4:18] Fran Brill: Um no, not really.

[4:20] Fran Brill: I played, I I actually first started taking tennis lessons when I was in Los Angeles, and I was doing a play called Deuce a Fish Stas and Vi, a British play.

[4:36] Fran Brill: Uh I'll drop some names here.

[4:38] Fran Brill: Diane Wiest was in.

[4:40] Fran Brill: It was just four women, Diane Wiest, Mary Beth Hurt, me and Jennifer Warren.

[4:46] Fran Brill: And it was uh it was my introduction to LA.

[4:50] Fran Brill: And uh after rehearsals, you know, all I had was the show at night.

[4:56] Fran Brill: So I thought, well, while I'm out here, why don't I do something?

[5:01] Fran Brill: So uh I knew a guy who had a cousin who was a tennis pro.

[5:07] Fran Brill: So I called him up and I said, Hey, I'd like to take some tennis lessons.

[5:11] Fran Brill: So that was when I first started.

[5:13] Fran Brill: That was I don't even know when that was, but uh, I started taking lessons, and then when I lived in Connecticut, uh, I played tennis there.

[5:22] Fran Brill: And then when um I moved here, let's not spell it out where I am.

[5:27] Fran Brill: Uh, but when I moved here, um uh I started taking tennis lessons again, and there's a a lot of other people down here, uh a lot of women, and uh so I I was playing about four times a week, but I just can't do that anymore.

[5:46] Fran Brill: My body just is rebelling.

[5:48] Fran Brill: So now I play about twice a week.

[5:52] Al Malafronte: Did you ever get Frank or Dave on the court when they come back to the city?

[5:54] Fran Brill: Oh, wouldn't that be fun?

[5:56] Fran Brill: Gosh, would that be fun or what?

[5:59] Fran Brill: And Bill, like get the Muppet Guys talking crew back together and we could we could play tennis.

[6:06] Fran Brill: Um no, the answer to that is no.

[6:08] Fran Brill: I don't think uh I don't think any of them play tennis.

[6:12] Fran Brill: I'm not sure if that's ever come up.

[6:14] Fran Brill: I'll have to find out and get back to you.

[6:16] Al Malafronte: Interesting.

[6:17] Al Malafronte: Yeah, Fran, I mentioned Frank Oz, and uh obviously your body of work with the Muppets actually spans longer than anyone else's in terms of the living performance outside of Frank.

[6:28] Fran Brill: That's because I'm still alive and everything passed away.

[6:32] Fran Brill: Uh I mean yeah, you're right.

[6:32] Fran Brill: You're right.

[6:35] Fran Brill: Everybody's dying off.

[6:38] Fran Brill: I know I mean I know it is sad, but nonetheless, though, I think of you as somewhere, you know, you mentioned Muppet Guys talking, how great it was, you know, to watch that documentary a couple years ago and celebrate those of you who are still around.

[6:51] Fran Brill: I know Jerry was a part of it, obviously, and unfortunately he passed away.

[6:54] Fran Brill: But you know, you did that for you did it for 44 years with the Muppets and on Sesame Street.

[7:00] Al Malafronte: When you look back on it, what are you most proud of?

[7:02] Fran Brill: Oh my golly.

[7:04] Fran Brill: Um well, I guess I'm most proud of the fact that I did a job that wasn't all about me, it was a job that that really affected children growing up and all that that entails.

[7:22] Fran Brill: And um, you know, I really loved my acting career.

[7:27] Fran Brill: I love the voiceovers.

[7:29] Fran Brill: I love all of it.

[7:30] Fran Brill: I really did.

[7:31] Fran Brill: Uh, I think puppeteering was the hardest thing that I ever did because I came into it having never played with a puppet.

[7:39] Fran Brill: But uh, and I'm very critical of my work always.

[7:42] Fran Brill: But um, you know, my husband said that to me once, and I thought, oh, that's really nice.

[7:47] Fran Brill: He said, of all the things you've done, I think you should be proudest of the fact that you know you spent most of your mature life uh teaching children, you know, how to be nice to each other and what you know, values and helped them learn their ABCs and their numbers.

[8:05] Fran Brill: And um, you know, I think that's a lot better.

[8:09] Fran Brill: Acting is very self-aggrandizing uh and almost selfish, I guess.

[8:15] Fran Brill: I mean, that's kind of goofy, but uh at least I did something that did some good in the world.

[8:22] Fran Brill: Let's let's say that way.

[8:23] Fran Brill: If I helped one child, you know, uh one times about three million or something like that.

[8:30] Al Malafronte: Yeah.

[8:31] Fran Brill: I'm only I'm only counting on one.

[8:34] Fran Brill: If I only helped one child, I I feel good about all those years.

[8:40] Al Malafronte: You know, I see behind you you have a a championship trophy of sorts.

[8:44] Al Malafronte: I know the folks at home can't see this, but I see your original Prairie Dawn puppet.

[8:49] Fran Brill: Yes, when I retired in 2014, uh, I was absolutely shocked when they called me to the set under pretenses that I had another scene to shoot, and I walked out there, and there was the producer of the show, and they gave me this huge bouquet of beautiful flowers and this my very own Prairie Dawn.

[9:12] Fran Brill: She's got her rods in.

[9:13] Fran Brill: She's got this uh plastic box that she lives in to keep her free from dust and everything, but I can take the box off and actually put her on.

[9:23] Fran Brill: I haven't done that, uh and I don't really want to do that, but um yeah, it's really I mean, those things are those puppets, those are valuable, those puppets.

[9:34] Fran Brill: Oh, I can tell you quickly a terrible story, which I don't think I've told anyone about the value of these puppets.

[9:40] Fran Brill: I was sent to, I'm gonna say Philadelphia on the train.

[9:46] Fran Brill: I had to go from New York to Philadelphia.

[9:49] Fran Brill: I think it was Philly, or it was DC, but at any rate, and I had Zoe with me, which is the my other kind of major principal character.

[9:59] Fran Brill: And uh they always put the puppet in a in a bag, like a duffel bag, a small duffel bag.

[10:05] Fran Brill: You probably are familiar with that.

[10:07] Fran Brill: And um I did, I did the job, and then I took the trip, took the the train back home, and I had put the bag with her in it in the um uh the baggage area above my seat.

[10:27] Fran Brill: Bad idea.

[10:29] Fran Brill: And I got off the train and I came up out onto the streets of New York where a car was waiting for me, and I realized, oh my god, I didn't bring, I didn't bring the bag, and I thought I was gonna have a heart attack.

[10:45] Fran Brill: And I went, oh my God.

[10:46] Fran Brill: So I ran back into Penn Station, traced my steps, ran to get back, you know, to the uh the gate where the train had arrived.

[10:59] Fran Brill: And I I know I I sort of remembered vaguely where I sat, because you know, there's lots of cars on a long train.

[11:08] Fran Brill: And I just kept running and running and looking, and I then I got to an area where I thought it would be.

[11:14] Fran Brill: And I think I I passed a few cleaning people along the way who were cleaning the train.

[11:20] Fran Brill: And I said, has anybody seen, you know, a bag that was up there?

[11:25] Fran Brill: And they and I told them roughly where I sat, and they just said, we'll keep on going.

[11:30] Fran Brill: And the good news is is that when I got to back to where my seat was, the bag was there.

[11:36] Fran Brill: It was it was soon enough that nobody had had come, cleaned that area of the train and said, What is this? and taken it to the lost and found.

[11:45] Fran Brill: But I that was probably one of my heart attack moments in my life.

[11:52] Fran Brill: And I don't know that I ever told that to anybody because it would have been so terrible if I had lost her.

[11:59] Fran Brill: I mean, I don't know how much it costs to make these puppets, but I know it's a lot.

[12:04] Fran Brill: So anyway, that's a little side story there.

[12:08] Fran Brill: That was some divine intervention that she was still there.

[12:11] Fran Brill: That literally never happens.

[12:12] Fran Brill: You lose something on the train, it's gone.

[12:14] Fran Brill: At least that's how it's fit in my past experience.

[12:17] Fran Brill: And and usually, you know, it's hopefully just a pair of sneakers.

[12:22] Fran Brill: But um, yeah, I I can't imagine what would have happened that somebody would have opened that bag and said, What on earth is this?

[12:29] Fran Brill: And unless they knew Sesame Street, they probably thought it was some sort of orange doll, you know, or I don't even want to go there, but I was very lucky.

[12:29] Fran Brill: Very lucky.

[12:42] Fran Brill: I love Zoe, but I do have a special affinity for Prairie Dawn because she was there.

[13:03] Al Malafronte: And you know, she loves to be the director of just about anything, be it pageants or sometimes dinners or where we're going on a family vacation. And you know, we'd suddenly say this see this like cuteness, take a back seat to this temper that came out of left field. And Fran, I loved how you always were able to take on the surface what what was this like cute little pink puppet and turn it into such a three-dimensional character. I have to know how much of Fran Brill is in Prairie Dawn.

[13:29] Fran Brill: Oh golly, well, I'm sure a lot, because you know, the original intention was uh that she was Jim said to me as she as he handed me this pink puppet years ago, he said, um, well, you know, we want her to be this really sweet little girl. And you know, she they put a smocked dress, which was very popular at that time with Pavilagirs, it probably still is, and uh they just wanted her to be a sweet little girl. Well, I don't know how to do that, quite honestly. Um, but I if you if you look at the really old YouTube stuff, um, the stuff that's on YouTube, you know, she she was kind of sweet the first go-round, like those pageants that she did when she played the piano. And um, but as the years went by, you know, that it wasn't funny.

And I just thought the funnier thing would be this this little girl who's the smallest puppet, would be very sure of herself and controlling and uh anal. I mean, she's she's certainly a type A person. And I found that funny, and I so did everybody else. So, you know, that stuff just happens, is the more you do a character, and it's always good to find opposites. You know, if you have a big, big puppet, it's good to have a squeaky voice, you know, something that's surprising and something that uh amuses you as a performer. So I loved it when they would write something where she just went bananas if it didn't work out right. Because I've always said, and um Stephanie De Bruzzo has now taken over Prairie, and you know, we talked about it, and I said it's not that it's not that she's you know, um nasty, it's just that she's a perfectionist, you know, that in her life everything has got to be the way she needs it to be for her well-being.

So if she gets upset, it's because things haven't, you know, are not good enough or perfect enough. But it's not anger at the other person, really. I think a lot of people are like her, you know. I she's small, but I I always said I thought one day she would run the network, you know, would leave Sesame Street. She'd work to she'd be executive producer of uh the Sesame Workshop, and then she'd she'd run PBS, you know.

[16:08] Al Malafronte: Do you agree that there was a sense of maturity with her character, much like a bird or Ernie? Because you know, you had Frank under Bird and Jim or Steve under Ernie, whereas, like, you know, some of the other characters were maybe geared more towards uh the younger crowd, like an Elmo or a Zoe, for example. Did you like play it as someone that or play it as a character that could be appreciated by both adults and kids?

[16:34] Fran Brill: No, I never thought about who the audience was. I don't think any of us really did. It was about developing a character. And um it's it's even like you know, that annoying phrase when people say, Oh, Fran Brill did the voice of Prairie Dawn. Yes, but she also performed the character. It isn't it isn't a voiceover job. It's uh it's a puppeteering, but it you're really the voice comes out of the character. It's it's that's where the the character is, you know, you you just don't slap on you can slap on an idiosyncrasy, like her her wanting everything to be, you know, perfectly aligned, let's say, but um her voice really came for me because Jim had said, Well, we want her to be very sweet, and okay, so I I have more a voice that's located in my lower register.

This is my relaxed way of speaking. But to sound like a little girl, it has to go up and not have all the bottom in it. And um where am I going with this? Uh just that so the voice is up there, but it can go even higher if she gets more hysterical if things don't work out. Uh so you know that it's all of a piece. It really is. It's all of a piece the way the way a character moves as a puppet or sounds as uh as a puppet. It's just intrinsic to the whole package of who that character is.

[18:19] Al Malafronte: You know, I think yeah, I I couldn't agree with you more. I think it really helped that you joined the Muppets when you did because they had started to become an established entity at that time, not just from Sesame Street, but also you know, all the work they were doing on the Ed Sullivan show and the commercials. Uh, you talked about how foreign puppetry was to you at the time. I know you've told this story before, but about how you linked up with Jim Henson almost by accident. But can you take us through what was going through your mind when you answered that classified ad for Muppets Inc.?

[18:50] Fran Brill: Sure, sure. So uh I had come to New York in a Broadway show, show closed, had to make some money. Uh I saw an ad in the paper. It was um either showbiz or backstage. I think it was probably backstage, but anyway, it's just said that Jim Henson was looking to train puppeteers for an upcoming Ed Sullivan Christmas special starring Art Carney. Now, I had never played with a puppet, I knew nothing about puppets. Uh, all I knew was that I could do voices, and I had watched this show called Sesame Street. I'd watched the first season because that was exactly when I arrived in New York. And it would cheer me up because it was funny and silly. I also watched Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, which made me feel good about myself.

So the two shows at the end of my horrible day made me feel good. So anyway, I just thought, okay, well, maybe maybe I can just do voices or you know, for all the animated stuff that I saw on Sesame Street, whatever. I just thought maybe I could just get a job. So when I answered the ad, uh I guess I I called over there. I actually got Jim Henson on the phone, I believe. It was that small an organization, and I just said, you know, I'm really not a puppeteer. I am an actress. I just was in a Broadway show that closed, and I know I can do voices and characters because I'm I'm an actress. That's part of the baggage. And he said, Well, that's all right. Um, you know, come on over. So he set up a time, and I walked in uh to what was then the Jim Henson Company, and there was Frank Oz and Jim Henson and uh a trunk full of puppets and a floor to ceiling mirror.

And you know, I'm so stupid. I I didn't even really think, oh, I'm auditioning, you know, because I could have cared less. All I wanted to do was earn some money, whatever. And I wasn't, I really wasn't um intimidated. I don't know. I I I can only count it up to being stupid, but I just uh thought, well, this will, you know, whatever. So there were some little scripts and we did scripts, and then Jim would have me put on a different Muppet. I think he just wanted to see what kind of range I had, what kind of person I was. But it seemed to go pretty well. And uh he was very easygoing, you know, Jim being Jim. He just talked in his very quiet place, you know. It was not at all tense. I remember we laughed.

Um it just seemed like uh we all we the three of us got along okay. So then I did get into the two-week workshop so that you learned how to puppeteer, you know, the Muppet way. And then um uh I did the workshop, and then out of that workshop uh came Richard Hunt. Remember hearing about Richard Hunt? Yes, yes, yes. Um so he and I were the the only two in that workshop that were then asked to do Sesame Street after we shot that special um the Great Santa Claus switch. So it was just as fluky as that, you know, just answering an ad for a job I really didn't want, but thought, well, okay, it's and they were paying us to take this workshop, which was really nutty. Uh, and I think it was like $65 a week just to take the, take the workshop.

And that meant a lot, you know, if you're not earning any money at all. So uh, and the workshop basically was just learning the rudimentary uh style of puppeting that Jim did where you lip synced perfectly with your hand. It wasn't just opening and closing like Kuklafran and Ollie, you know, just haphazardly. Uh, and we had eyeballs on our fingers, and um, it was you know, it was challenging, but there were there were a ton of us, and after one week, Jim and Frank let some people go, and then after the second week they let people go, but they also asked some of us to go do this shoot in Toronto. So that was really the start of it. And then when that was over, Jim asked Richard and I if we wanted to do Sesame Street in the fall. This was June when we did the um when we did the at Sullivan Christmas special.

[23:51] Al Malafronte: One of my favorites, and and I feel like does not get enough love because I think it is absolutely brilliant. But I didn't mean it's interrupt. Sorry.

[23:59] Fran Brill: No, no, no. I haven't seen, I know I have a copy of it here, but I haven't seen it probably maybe once I saw it after we shot it. I should probably see that again. But I I mean, I don't think uh you think it would last the test of time right now in today's world.

[24:19] Al Malafronte: I think it's just cheerful glee is what it is. I have to know though. Do you remember who you performed in that, like which characters that you puppeteered or anything about that shoot? Because it doesn't get talked about a lot.

[24:31] Fran Brill: I really want to know. I think it was a frackle, which was some sort of weird bird looking puppet.

[24:37] Al Malafronte: That's how Gonzo started as a frackle.

[24:40] Fran Brill: Really? Wow. I I think he was in that special, and they called him the cigar.

[24:45] Al Malafronte: I have my gonzo coffee mug right here, but I had I think they called him the cigar box frackle from that special.

[24:52] Fran Brill: From that special, really. And Dave wasn't there at that point. I don't know who was performing him, but yeah, I think that was the earliest gonzo.

[25:00] Al Malafronte: Oh, that's interesting.

[25:02] Fran Brill: I I really don't remember what you know what? If I saw the show, I'll bet you it would come back right away, and I could tell you. Um anyway, so that's how Richard and I started in the fall of uh 1970.

[25:19] Al Malafronte: Yeah, fall of 1970. So, yeah. Now I know that you mentioned that you weren't nervous when you auditioned. However, when you get onto the set, at that point the Muppets are primarily a boys' club. Um, but the one thing that amazes me, and this goes back to your earliest days was the rapport that you had with Frank Oz when you were doing your scenes together, whether either you know with Prairie and Cookie Monster or Prairie and Grover. At that point, he's Jim's main guy. How much did that help you in the early days? And was that chemistry instant that the two of you shared?

[25:53] Fran Brill: Oh, yeah.

[25:54] Fran Brill: I think it with the chemistry between Jim and me and Frank and me, and then Dave and me, and I don't know. It just was real easy. They were always so great to me. Um, I knew nothing about puppeteering when I was hired, and they uh, you know, they didn't laugh or snicker behind my back. They were very sweet. And um, you know, I it never even occurred to me, and I honestly mean this, that I was the first female. I never, I never thought of myself differently. I would have said that I was one of the guys. Do you know what I mean? Um I didn't feel like I was here and they were over there. I was part of the group, that's all. And I think because it didn't mean that much to me, I just had a great time.

I was a great audience for them. I I would laugh at everything because they were so funny. I loved watching the, you know, the Ernie uh Bert Nerney bits. And I don't know, I just remember that those first years as just being kind of fun. Uh I was mostly doing right hands in the beginning. Uh, but then if there was a then they began to trust me a little bit more, and then I would do anything Muppets in a group song. I did Little Bird. That was the first puppet that Jim kind of gave me. But all of these were nice and small, and I could deal with them because my hands weren't like their hands. Um, you know, there was no recipe at that time. There was nothing to live up to. It was just, hey, we're starting this television show.

Let's hope it works out, folks. Um I never really felt the only pressure I felt was self imposed because I didn't want them to ever have to take another take because of me. So I'm not sure I even did my best work. I know I didn't, because I was very concerned about doing it right instead of just letting it go. But I never felt that I deserved to say, oh, can I do that again? Because you had Frank and you have Jim and you, you know, these people who are so talented, and um they would ask, like we would shoot Muppet inserts. They would they would either stick their head in the shot, you know, purposely to ruin it so that they could do another take. Frank is very, very famous for that. Uh, but I never I never had the guts to do that to say, oh, look, I I think prairie needs another tape.

No, I just tried to struggle through and shoot it, and um uh anyway, but I I loved being, you know, I I this guess it sounds like a contradiction. It never the importance of my being the first female never occurred to me until so much later in my life when people who are keeping score said, you know, you're you're the first female that two men's been hired, you know, other than Jane, who who who did who was who did his right hands and helped him a lot when their careers first started. But I was the first person that they actually paid, you know, to do this, and I was given a lot of characters and stuff. So I don't know. Um I was just in the right place at the right time because they felt pressure to hire a bona fide female.

I happened to have all the skills required except for the puppeteering part. But but but in a way, you can get away with murder if it sounds right or it sounds good or it's acted well, even if your manipulation isn't a thousand percent right, even a hundred percent ready. You know what I mean?

[30:01] Al Malafronte: Well, you had that I mentioned it earlier, you had that brilliant comedic wit. And I've heard that there would be times when you'd be on set just making the whole crew lose it to the point that they forgot they were on the set of a kid's show.

[30:13] Fran Brill: Oh, well that's that's great. I I have a bit of a foul mouth. Um it could have been bad. I know if I have somebody laughing at what I say, I can be pretty outrageous. Um but I I'm glad to hear that. I guess I did when I'm very comfortable with somebody, I think I am pretty funny and outrageous. And I enjoyed being in their company so much, you know. They just made made it easy for me to just be myself. But yeah, Frank Frank is cookie monster and prairie. We were ridiculous. We were just ridiculous. But this is all in between takes. This is all playing, which is what makes the Muppets the Muppets, and which is what Jim always encourages that you shouldn't think, oh my God, I'm going to work. It's playing, acting is playing.

And uh when you're loose and you're comfortable, you just allow yourself to be free. And if you work in a horrible constricted environment where somebody is watching you and and thinking, oh I should just terrible doing that or whatever. If you feel that, all you do is get smaller and smaller and more and more frightened and more and more inhibited. I mean, it's awful. I've been in in uh plays where the director will, you know, pick on somebody in the cast, and it's so awful that even if it's not you being picked on, that environment is just deadly. I stay away from anybody and anything that is like that. We should all just be happy and fun and be kind to each other. And that's where the that's where the good stuff happens, not by blaming somebody and making them feel horrible. How can you do, how can you be better in that kind of atmosphere?

[32:10] Fran Brill: Right. And I think that that's a real testament to the way Jim went about doing business and selecting the right people. I think Stevie was even talking about it's like he almost wanted to see how you were going to gel with the rest of the group because there was that common vision. There was an optimism in the spirit with all that work. So it really brought out the best in everyone.

[32:31] Fran Brill: Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. Oh yeah. There's no question because Jim always was one of us. It wasn't like Jim and us. It was, it was he was one of us. He would make mistakes, he would laugh at himself. We were all in the trenches together. He never acted as a boss, but we all knew he was. You know, we all knew he was the leader, but he didn't um he didn't act like that and he didn't rub it in or anything like that. He he it was a group endeavor, always. And it still is. And I think if you don't fit into that, we're uh one puppeteer will help another puppeteer. If you're in a really weird position, you know, another puppeteer might say, Hey, move the monitor over here. And you go, Oh my god, of course.

That would be so much easier for me to do uh to puppeteer, even if it's backwards, you know, to know, okay, if I look over my shoulder, at least I can I can see what I'm doing. That's it. It was a group effort of helping each other. And I don't know what it's like now, but I'm really hoping that it that that has continued now that some of us have you know left the show.

[33:48] Al Malafronte: Does it bother you at all to see the way the regimes change between Frank and Steve not being there anymore? You're retired, obviously, Carol's pass away. Does it is it tough to look at what it's becoming? That's no knocking anyone there now, but is it kind of weird in some ways?

[34:04] Fran Brill: No, it doesn't bother me at all because I'm not part of whatever struggles may or may not be going on there. Of course, you know, there's new executive producers, there's new this, there's new that all the time. Um there's I think several new puppeteers that have been added to the mix. I mean, it's always different for them to not have me there anymore, or Frank has been gone a long, long time. Um, you know, things change. That's all. Things change, it doesn't mean they get worse. Hopefully they get better. Uh, but the dynamic has changed. That's all. But I think most of the puppeteers that have been there many years, like Marty, Marty Robinson, that is, and Stephanie, and now Leslie, uh Carrera and Carmen, they still perpetuate what they have learned from the rest of us.

In other words, I passed on what I learned from Jim, and and how I was, I pretty I'm pretty sure passed on to somebody who's there now. You know, that's all. The source was always Jim. How did Jim behave? How did he act towards other people? I'm hoping that we as seedlings of Jim continue doing that out in the real world. I know I do. I try to.

[35:31] Al Malafronte: Fran, I want to use a baseball parallel here for a moment just to talk about 40 people who are listening. I didn't hear people clicking this off. What's he doing? He's not talking sports at all. He's talking about puppets.

[35:54] Fran Brill: I um I yeah, listen, I'm wearing a Yankee hat, so I'm just gonna bring up one parallel here. And I actually kind of equated it to your career in some ways. Um, Mickey Mantle, who I'm sure you've heard of, you know, he started his career playing in the World Series virtually every year, and almost overnight in 1965, his teammates started to show their age and the guard change when they and they couldn't keep winning anymore. He went from playing with his best friends on a nightly basis to suddenly having an entirely different team around him, and he decided that he didn't want to play anymore just for the sake of hanging on. When Frank and Steve left, did that influence your decision to retire at all?

[36:34] Fran Brill: No, because when Frank left, it was really a long time ago. Um he was a day player though, on occasion, though, wasn't he? At least he would come back every once in a while and resume doing Cookie Monster or Grover, even though new puppeteers had taken over those jobs, and then that I think got a little awkward, but Frank really has not been on the set for 20 years at least. But no, I made the decision because like Mickey Mantle, I began to say to myself, um, I think I'm getting a little old for this. I began to feel silly. I began to feel all sorts of things that you shouldn't feel. Um there were a lot of young puppeteers around me, and I I don't think they felt like, oh, there's a big difference between me and Fran, but I felt it.

I felt, I just felt it's time to move on, pass the baton, give some other female puppeteers a chance here. Um I didn't, I didn't like how I was performing. I didn't think I was as good as I should be. Um it was getting, it was just getting, it was just time to time. You know, I mean, my husband used to say, Well, when do you think you're gonna retire? Because he was itching to get out of the Northeast. And um I said, Well, I don't know, but I'll I because I had already given up commercials and theater and all that stuff. So this was the last thing before I, you know, hung up my hat, as it were. And I I guess it's hard to let go of because it's a family over there. But then again, a lot of my family members had left the show.

So it was a combination of factors. And I just had a an epiphany one day, and I said, it's time to retire. It is time to retire. So I called uh I guess it was Carolyn Parenti at the time, and said, I'm gonna do one more season and that's it. So that was, and then what was that that happened? That was in 2014. Oh, and then they they canceled a season.

[38:54] Fran Brill: What happened exactly? Maybe like was that the I'm just off the top of my head. Maybe the HBO transition, did that have something to do with that? Well, it ironically, the last day, which was September 30th, 2014, when I had the goodbye party. Well, actually, the night before had been my celebration, or as I as I call it, my memorial, because it was like a memorial. I they threw a nice big thing the night before, which would have been September 29th, at uh the Museum of the Moving Image, and there were about 125 people there. And uh Craig Shemon, do you know Craig, right? Stephanie's husband. He runs the Jim Henson um not alumni, but I the historical legacy, the legacy, he was legacy. And um anyway, he interviewed me on stage, and then he had done a whole presentation of everything I ever done in my life from on-camera commercials and pictures of me.

Uh, and it was just a very heady, wonderful, warm night for me, and one I'll never forget. And um, you know, if I had died the next day, I would have been perfectly happy. It was a really nice send-off. But the next day, when they pretended to call me back for another bit for this shoot we were doing, um I saw Jeff Dunn, who was the incoming executive producer in the elevator, and I'm carrying my bouquet of flowers and stuff, and I go, Hi Jeff. Welcome, welcome to Sesame Street. I'm Fran Brill and I'm leaving. I mean, he knew who I was, of course, but literally he was coming in and I was going out. So yes, I think that changes it enormously. We had several executive producers during my time at Sesame Street, and usually they want to change everything to put their imprimatur or their imprint anyway on everything. But I had made my decision before that, anyway. I mean to leave before we had yet another changeover. It was just something personal within me, and I said, bingo, this is time to go.

[41:20] Al Malafronte: Wow. And it's been nice to see, however, that you've still stayed so close to those other cornerstone players, like a Frank Oz, Dave Gold, Steve Whitmire, Bill Beretta, like the actual greats. It's nice to see that even in retirement.

[41:34] Fran Brill: Yeah, I love that. Oh, yeah. And I I still talk to Carmen and Stephanie. Love Carmen. And uh I talked to Joey Mazzarino, and I, you know, this is my life and my family for so many years. Why would I jettison everybody? I what I really miss is seeing these the children of these, you know, performers grow up, like Matt's five children. You know, I'm I met them when they were born, and now one is going off to college. And no, I guess the second one's going off to college. So I I I miss them as people and friends. And so I feel like it's up to me to keep up and you know, remind them I'm still alive and uh call them or text them or you know, whatever. And it's you know, like it's like time, no time is passed at all when you get together with any any of these people. It's just like the old days, which is very nice.

[42:35] Al Malafronte: Um yeah. You're talking about my heartstrings here, Fran. I have always thought of you all as a family. And um, you're right. Yeah, right. That's it's it's it's exactly what it's exactly what it is. Well, you know, even if you work at IBM for 40 years, you would feel when you left that you were leaving a family. I mean, I I I don't know what it's like to work in a different workplace. Obviously, Sesame Street's very special, but I would think when you've put in that long a time and they give you a gold watch if they still do that. Um, you know, you feel like you're you're you're leaving a certain time in your life, but I don't think like that. I also think that life is is divided into uh sections, and so I've moved on now to another part of my life.

That's all, but it doesn't mean that I would jettison everyone that's come before. Uh, but it's a new chapter, that's all, and that can be a good thing. It's up, it's up to all of us to make whatever chapter we're in a good chapter. You know, we have we have control over that.

[43:50] Fran Brill: That's so well said, friend. And uh I think it speaks to the longevity of your career and the success you've enjoyed. And listen, you've accomplished a lot, but uh I do have to warn you that it might get a little tough here on Break of Bat for a moment. Um we do a segment here called Fastball Derby. Have you are you familiar with fastball derby at all, Fran?

[44:10] Fran Brill: No, it sounds like you're gonna give me a word and I have to give you a word association.

[44:16] Al Malafronte: Well, I a little different. I was back to our sports theme. I want you to picture yourself in the batter's box. All right, ninth inning. Two out game on the line, and a Raldo Chapman is on the mound throwing a hundred miles. Now I don't know who that is.

[44:34] Al Malafronte: Well, I let me give you some background on him. He's the fastest throwing man ever. He threw a pitch at 105 miles an hour once. He pitches for the Yankees, seven-time all-star. Uh, what would Prairie Dawn have to say to someone like that, by the way? What would he what would she say to Aralda Chapman?

[44:45] Fran Brill: You're cute.

[44:52] Al Malafronte: Well, you gotta think quick because he's throwing fast. And I'm gonna ask you a question, Fran. And you tell me what comes to mind. You're a great storyteller. I'd love for the audience to hear some of more, even more of your stories in this format. So, how does that sound?

[45:06] Fran Brill: Well, give it a try.

[45:07] Al Malafronte: All right, batter up, friend. Favorite New York City meal.

[45:13] Fran Brill: Pizza.

[45:16] Al Malafronte: Greatest baseball game or sporting event you've ever been to.

[45:20] Fran Brill: I went to a Yankees game once.

[45:24] Al Malafronte: Do you remember what decade?

[45:26] Fran Brill: Oh my gosh, yeah. It was probably in um I'm trying to I'm trying to think of who I went with. Uh, I would say it was in the late 70s. So that's when they were winning. They won the championship 77 and 78. I also was a fan of Jim Longborn Longborn. Remember who he was? He played for the Boston Red Sox because I went to Boston University and uh fine arts school, and Jim Longborg was a very attractive pitcher at that time.

[45:58] Al Malafronte: Yes, that's right. He pitched.

[46:03] Fran Brill: No, he um he pitched for quite a while. He made he won a Cy Young Award, I want to say in the late 60s. So that must have in it. He was with the Red Sox at that point. So that kind of makes sense with your BU timing.

[46:14] Al Malafronte: Yep, you betcha. Wow, that is I see a little known fact. I love that.

[46:19] Fran Brill: Yeah. Um last Yankee question, I promise. Are you team Derek Jeter or Team Alex Rodriguez?

[46:26] Fran Brill: Derek Jeter, no question. I remember I had my Yankee jacket on one day during the internship, uh, you know, 10 years ago. And I remember you, I that's one of the first things you and I were talking about. It was your love of Derek Jeter. And I wanted to uh I was hoping that uh that you would answer that one.

[46:49] Fran Brill: A good person, a nice human being. I I just everything I've ever gleaned about him seems very positive. So I that was that was uh a no-brainer for me.

[46:59] Al Malafronte: Great answer. Alex was you know, Alex did some naughty things in his life, you know. Uh I mean, time forgives everybody, but uh Derek Jeter never cheated or did or was on steroids or anything like that.

[47:15] Fran Brill: That's right. And you didn't cheat on any wives or girlfriends, etc.

[47:19] Al Malafronte: Correct, etc.

[47:21] Fran Brill: Yeah, Alex is uh he I think he's a a forever playboy.

[47:27] Al Malafronte: Yeah, he's got problems. Hasn't he been married at least twice?

[47:33] Fran Brill: Well, he was uh married once and he was engaged to J-Lo for a little while. He ruined that, and now he's trying to buy a or he just bought a basketball team. Um I think he's a very good businessman, and I look, I can't sit here and judge him as a person. All I can know, all I can say is that I think Derek Deer is definitely uh my favorite over Alex Rodriguez. I hope he isn't listening.

[47:59] Al Malafronte: I'm sure he is, friend. Actually, something right out from the closet. Here is Alex Rodriguez.

[48:04] Fran Brill: Right. What a surprise. Uh okay, so here's a uh here's an interesting one. You know, we talked about your Broadway background. If you could be the lead in one Broadway musical, what would it be?

[48:17] Fran Brill: Oh my gosh. A musical. Oh wow. Well, if I could if I could tap dance, well, I can very poorly, but I mean I love that. Uh it would probably be 42nd Street, I'm gonna say.

[48:38] Al Malafronte: Yeah. Favorite holiday tradition.

[48:44] Fran Brill: Hmm. Uh not the only tradition we have is that we go visit our relatives, you know, every other year for Christmas, but a particular thing we do, not really.

[49:04] Al Malafronte: America's Band, the Beach Boys or the Eagles?

[49:07] Fran Brill: Oh wow, what a good question. The Eagles.

[49:11] Al Malafronte: You got a favorite Eagles song, friend?

[49:13] Fran Brill: No. Not to think of, but I much prefer them. I think they were a really good group. And you know it's Eagles. It's not the Eagles, right?

[49:24] Al Malafronte: True. That is right. That is my bet. I've done I've asked that question to pretty much probably about 40 guests or so, and I typed it out wrong. And I feel like I just insulted uh Glenn Fry and Don Henley.

[49:36] Fran Brill: So did your other friends call did your the other people you've interviewed call call them the Eagles erroneously?

[49:45] Al Malafronte: I don't remember because most people pick the Beach Boys, actually. Believe it or not.

[49:48] Fran Brill: Interesting. Oh I think you got a couple. Kimberly Williams Paisley picked Eagles and sung a verse of Hotel California. And I think that she said Eagles, so she didn't use the the. So actually.

[50:02] Al Malafronte: I know.

[50:05] Fran Brill: Um okay, interesting one. Favorite Muppet that you didn't perform yourself.

[50:19] Fran Brill: I really don't know. I don't, I I feel like I I got a huge variety, even if it was just an anything Muppet. Uh and it would have been some other character, like a guy's character, but I there really was no care. I can't, nothing. I got nothing for you on this album, nothing.

[50:39] Al Malafronte: So you don't have a a favorite that you know Frank did or Jim or any anyone like that?

[50:45] Fran Brill: Not that I would want to do, no, because that's who that that character is the way they are because they're doing them.

[50:53] Al Malafronte: Oh, I just meant as far as who you enjoy which um which character you liked seeing on screen the most or who made you laugh the most, not necessarily stepping in as the performer, just your favorite.

[51:04] Fran Brill: Yeah. Uh oh gosh, probably Frank. I mean, he's such a genius. Everything he did was so funny and great. Um, whether it was Miss Picky or any number of characters, Sam the Eagle, a great character. Uh he's he's just top of the crop. Um so many characters he did. Anything that Frank did, I that's that's who I would root for. Now, speaking of Frank Oz, I want to name three of your contemporaries, and I'd like to know your favorite memory working alongside each of them. Favorite sketch, favorite memory, favorite scene, favorite bit. It could be anything you want. There's no rules in fastball derby. Uh let's start with Frank Oz.

[51:57] Fran Brill: This is so long ago. It's really interesting. Is like, what do you remember? It's something that happened so so way back. But I also stuff I did with Dave Redman when he was doing uh Cookie Monster with Prairie Dawn. But Frank Frank is a catalyst, which is why he works so well with Jim. Uh he's a he's what I call a catalyst performer, while some of us are more reactionary performers. And he would just do the most outrageous stuff, um, just to make me laugh, just to make the set laugh, just to make himself laugh. You know, looking under Prairie Dawn's uh dress. And then uh I would say something like uh uh oh my is it Tuesday or Wednesday? And this is a referring to something he probably wouldn't get, but there was a time when little girls had panties that said Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and you know, there would be something like that, and and the seemier the better.

That's all I can say is if I could be really out there, it would make Frank laugh. And and you know, that's what we did in between takes because that's what you do when there's a female around, you know. If there's a bunch of guys, they act a certain way, but you drop a female into that group, and the whole dynamic changes. I don't know if you would say for the better or not, but especially if you had a female who thought it was hysterically funny and was never offended, you know. I mean being offended is like so far from who I am. So, you know, he made me laugh, and then I made him laugh, and you know, that's the way it was.

[53:52] Fran Brill: I love these behind the scenes stories, but I I I do want to tell you mine. I'm curious if it stands out to you. Um Prairie Dawn directing Grover and singing in the rain. Does that one stand out at all? Yeah, that's one of my favorite. It's it's a very old bit, but the premise was just terrific. And I also love the fact that Prairie was the director. That may have been the first time she ever held a megaphone. Then they started to write more stuff for her as the director. Um, for people who are listening and don't know what we're talking about, um, it was based on the song Singing on the R Singing in the Rain from the movie. And um Grover, Grover played the Gene Kelly role, and uh the premise was teaching the children the difference between wind, rain, and snow.

So we were teaching weather in that bit. And Prairie Dawn was the director, complete with you know, jot for like she was a director out of the 1930s with a megaphone and her director's chair. And um, so she was directing this little movie, and Grover was her leading actor, and he would come on and the music would start, and he had an umbrella, and uh he would, I think he was singing and singing in the rain, and then um all of a sudden it would snow, and then Prairie Dawn would go, stop, stop, stop! No, no, no, that's not rain, that's snow. And then Grover would have to go back, and he got another another umbrella or the same umbrella I can't remember, and he would do it again, and this time it was it was uh wind, and he and the umbrella were completely blown back and away, and uh she again freaked out and said, No, no, that's not right.

I need wind, not rain, wind. I mean, I need rain, not wind. And then uh then finally, gosh, how did that end? Um I don't remember. I remember there was a lot of yelling. I wish I remember how to sketch it. It's been a while, but it stands out. Oh God, what would be the end of that? I I think I think he finally does it right. Everything works right. He comes on, he goes singing in the rain, just singing in the rain, and the rain comes down and he stops for some reason. And Prairie goes, cut, cut, cut, cut. What's wrong, Rover? And Grover, what does he say? He says, I'm all wet. And he walks off. But we're the very spot that we've been working on that finally was done correctly, and then he ruins it and leaves it. But it was a really, I don't remember who wrote that. I should find out. Um, but it was a really clever, clever skit. Absolutely love it.

[57:15] Fran Brill: Um, all right, number two. Steve Winmeyer. Yes. Favorite moment working with him. Oh, Stevie. Well, the first my favorite moment is that he knew I read the New York Times every day. So he was my New York Times delivery boy when he would come to the set. So if he was in New York working on the show, he would come in every morning and he'd give me the New York Times. So we have a little running gag about that. Uh that he's he's been my delivery boy. Uh normally I would have bought the paper later in the day and gone home and read it, but anyway, he would give it to me. Um gosh, I don't know. He's a such a sweet, sweet guy. I don't know, he's was so good. What a terrific puppeteer. You would give him a dog puppet, and he would find a million things to do that was dog behavior that was just brilliant.

Just brilliant. Um, do I have a special memory other than the newspaper? Um not that I can think of right now. I'm awful at these questions. Because I don't, you know, everybody loves what was your the your best memory or the and I I should have write them down if I ever thought of them, but anyway. I I don't know. He's just was a brilliant performer, still is fantastic puppeteer. Um I I thought he he did Ernie really well, you know. I thought I thought he captured Ernie really well, but uh I don't have a special one thing that I remember now. It's a culmination of things. I like that.

[59:00] Fran Brill: And uh with this last one, I feel like it might end up being the same way, just so many different things. It's hard to narrow down one, but um Jim Henson. A special memory of him or working with him, one that stands out about above all the others. Uh well, I do remember like uh uh well, it was just crazy having to keep up with well, I would write hand for him when he was doing, let's say, Ernie. And it would what we did in the in the in the day, I want to say the old days. I guess I might as well say that. The old days, we used to have cables so that our equipment was there were cables all over the floor um and I had we we would pre-record the songs and then we would perform and lip sync to the playback on the set.

So I just remember being dragged all over the set because my right hand was in Ernie's right his sleeve, the puppet's sleeve, and trying to keep up with Jim as he is like doing all of this movement and choreography, and I'm doing it backwards, and it was just and I'm wearing boots that are this high to stay up to to approximate because I'm well I was 5'4, and he was at least 6'2, and um, you know, I wore these boots, and I just remember thinking I'm gonna kill myself because I'm having to run in these high boots, trip not trip over these cables, and keep this right arm alive so that I don't, you know, and keep it up high so that it looks like a normal arm for the puppet. Uh, but oh, I don't know, so many.

I learned so much from him being a person. Uh I mean, it just shaped my behavior, as I'd said many times, more than my parents' effect on me. Um he was like the first grown up that really had an effect on how to how to be an adult and how to behave in a work situation. He just um he always was so generous and kind and understanding of where you were or I was and just the way he would he would treat, you know, read through and how he'd make suggestions and see if any of us had any suggestions. Um I kind of learned how to deal with problems that would come up, or like I just remember so many times in New York, like being in a cab stuck in traffic, and I'm on on my way to an audition or something, and I just gotta be there quickly.

And I would just say to myself, how would Jim handle this? Jim would probably just say, Well, there's nothing we can do about it. You know, they're kidding, you can't make the cab go any faster, just to deal with it in a sane way so that you don't get all crazy. And uh I I know that's very much how I behave now. You know, I just uh I mean, from from that point on, I just it changed my behavior to things just because he was an example for me and somebody who I looked up to.

[1:02:46] Al Malafronte: Wow. I I got the chills just listening to that, and uh I I don't even know how to respond to it. I mean, it it but it all makes sense because you know, as I mentioned before, you and I I was fortunate enough to, you know, work alongside you for a few months. And I mean, you're just you're an incredible person, friend. I feel like so blessed that our audience got to listen to you today.

[1:03:08] Fran Brill: Well, thank you. It's been great seeing you again. I'm sorry, audience, that you can't see him. Uh, but uh it's great seeing you, and it's been great fun talking to you. I wish you a lot of luck with your show, and uh that you have nothing but good times ahead.

[1:03:26] Al Malafronte: Well, you're the best friend. You just you gotta do me a favor. Uh, next time you're new you're in New York, you're gonna let me know. I know you love your New York pizza. I'll take you and uh we'll all go out and we'll go grab a slice. We won't even, I won't even need permission into the Muppet Lounge or anything. There won't be any bells and whistles. That sound good.

[1:03:42] Fran Brill: That sounds great.

[1:03:43] Al Malafronte: Okay. Take care now.

[1:03:45] Fran Brill: Well, thank you, friend, and thank you to our audience uh for listening tonight. This was just uh an absolute pleasure. Uh be sure to subscribe to Break a Bat wherever you get your podcasts. This is Al Malafronte signing off for the Broadway Podcast Network. We'll see you next time.

[1:04:06] Al Malafronte: Thanks for listening to Break a Bat. This is produced by the fine folks at the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit and subscribe at BPN.fm slash breakabat. You can find me online at break underscore a underscore bat underscore podcast. And you can also find the Broadway Podcast Network on Instagram at Broadway Podcast Network. It's been so great having you here with us today, and we'll see you next time.