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[0:00] Kerry Butler: Once I played a panty who just couldn't stop the beat. Yes, with roller skates on her feet. A girl who loved to beat a girl who's recently deceased. A real cool mom, musical version of Tina Fey. Tina Fey! Now come with me and fly, fly. I am your host, Miss Kerry Butler. Together you and I are breaking Broadway.

[0:53] Kerry Butler: Hello, welcome to Breaking Broadway. This is Kerry Butler. And we are so lucky to have one of the top casting directors in New York City, Rachel Hoffman, who works with Telsey and Company. And literally every season they cast a million shows, a million Broadway shows. They've cast me in so many shows. What is your journey to getting into casting?

[1:20] Rachel Hoffman: Oh, my goodness. Well, I came into casting, actually if you would have asked me, I've been casting for 20 years now, but if you would have asked me 21 years ago when I was a senior at the University of Michigan getting my degree in musical theater, what I would be doing, I certainly would have told you that I was going to be an actor pursuing that career. But, I don't know, an opportunity presented itself and I suppose I made the most of it. I graduated in 1999 from Michigan with my musical theater degree. I moved to New York to be a performer. I did a showcase and at the showcase I got an agent and a casting director named Dave Clemens started calling me in for some things. And much like it is at Telsey, if you get called in by Telsey, most of the time you're not necessarily seeing Bernie Telsey.

You're seeing me, or Craig Burns, or Beth Knox, or in the TV department, Rachel Nadler, Rachel Minow, David Vicari, you know, there's a bunch of us who work there. So I went to a few auditions that Dave was casting and long story short, try to be short, Dave at the time had cast The Civil War, which was running on Broadway. I went to see it and opened my playbill and Dave had two bios in the show. He had his bio as the casting director and he also had his bio as an actor because he was in the show too. So 22-year-old me with my degree in musical theater is like, oh, this is what I'll do. I'll cast the Broadway show and I'll be in it. No problem. Where's Dave Clemens? And so I ended up chatting with him.

He asked if I wanted to intern for him. I jumped at the chance. And he was just transitioning out of acting into casting. And so I was in the right place at the right time. The business grew. Actually, one of the very early things that we cast was Bat Boy, the very first workshops and then off-Broadway production of Bat Boy. And your audition actually is a story I tell all the time. Do you remember what you sang for your Shirley audition?

[3:34] Kerry Butler: Did I sing I Will Survive?

[3:37] Rachel Hoffman: You did. Carrie Butler sang. We had seen a lot of people. Carrie Butler walked in and sang I Will Survive as an angry 16-year-old girl who's mad at her mom, mad at her boyfriend. And it's an example I use all the time in take a song that you don't necessarily expect someone to do in a certain way and make it your own and surprise us. And I remember the studio in Chelsea Studios where we were. Anyway, so Bat Boy and that 1999 production of Godspell and a few other things kind of gave me the clue that, well, the truth was I was loving casting. I was loving how creative I felt casting more than I was loving auditioning, which, let's face it, when you are an actor, your job, when you don't have a full-time eight show a week or whatever job, your job is auditioning.

[4:41] Kerry Butler: Which you don't get paid for.

[4:42] Rachel Hoffman: No, you don't get paid for it, but you have to approach it like it is real work and you have to take it seriously and it has to be your number one priority. And I was not great at that.

[4:53] Kerry Butler: Were you auditioning and casting at the same time?

[4:55] Rachel Hoffman: I was a little bit. Like when my agent was Diane Riley at Hardin Curtis, who remains one of my dear friends, and when I would get an audition through them, I would go in. But I just found myself more passionate about the casting side of things and putting the puzzle together and matching people with material and getting to know creative teams and what they responded to and getting to work on new things like Bat Boy.

[5:24] Kerry Butler: Yes.

[5:25] Rachel Hoffman: Anyway, so it was a quick transition, I think. There wasn't a moment that I was like, I'm no longer an actor, now I'm a casting director. But the business grew, I grew with it. In 2006, I joined the Telsey team and I have been there ever since.

[5:44] Kerry Butler: That's so great.

[5:45] Rachel Hoffman: Yeah.

[5:46] Kerry Butler: That's so great that you just went through the door. You just said yes. You didn't know what it was going to be?

[5:51] Rachel Hoffman: You have to.

[5:52] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[5:53] Rachel Hoffman: An opportunity presented itself. I made the most of it. And I learned a lot about myself. And here I still am lucky to wake up and love what I do every day 20 years later.

[6:03] Kerry Butler: Yeah. Okay, so this podcast is for people who live away from Broadway and have really no idea about what it takes to get here. What are your thoughts on pictures and resumes?

[6:12] Rachel Hoffman: I think they are obviously important.

[6:21] Rachel Hoffman: Essential. They're the first thing that we see. If you are submitting yourself for something online, your picture is probably the very first thing that we see. So most importantly, I think your picture needs to look like you.

[6:38] Kerry Butler: Right.

[6:40] Rachel Hoffman: I understand that if you are in a small town in the middle of nowhere without resources to get to a headshot photographer, I am perfectly happy with a snapshot of you from your iPhone, from whatever, as long as it looks like you and is a representation of you. Eventually when you're getting into it more professionally and taking it more seriously or moving to a city where there's more auditions on a more regular basis, you're going to want to have a headshot that looks professional, that feels like what we see that's given to us when an actor walks in the room here in New York. But those are also expensive, and I think there comes a time where that's necessary. But, yeah, have a picture that looks like you.

That's the most important thing. Obviously you want to show some personality or something that makes us interested in some way. And then resumes. Nobody expects you to have a big long resume if you are young or if you're in the middle of your training or whatever. If you are from a small town or all you've done is your school theater or your community theater or some voice lessons or dance classes, put that on there. That's totally significant at the beginning, even for kids coming out of college. Your college credits and what you've done is fine. Nobody expects, nobody needs lots of credits. Ultimately I need the best person for the role, and if that person has 12 Broadway credits or if that person has their high school credits, if they're the best person, they're the best person.

[8:27] Kerry Butler: Right.

[8:29] Rachel Hoffman: I am curious about this. Do you ever cast off of social media? Do you watch YouTube or things like that?

[8:34] Rachel Hoffman: Yeah. It's changed a lot since I've been doing this 20 years now, and the answer now is yes.

[8:44] Kerry Butler: Wow.

[8:45] Rachel Hoffman: I mean, we spend a lot of time searching through social media for people. And a lot of times it's for odd projects. Rebecca Shull, I just walked by it. It's in my head. I just on the way here walked by the marquee for the West Side Story, the new West Side Story that Rebecca Shull in our office worked on. And the dancers for that, she was all over Instagram because a lot of dancers have a lot of material on Instagram. So looking through all of that, we have for Motown and the upcoming Don't Stop Till You Get Enough thing, we've searched for the young kids who sing the Michael Jackson stuff.

[9:25] Kerry Butler: How do you find them?

[9:26] Rachel Hoffman: I mean, you Google and YouTube and one thing leads to another, and the honest truth is the interns in our office who are mostly college age, they've never not had social media.

[9:41] Kerry Butler: Right.

[9:42] Rachel Hoffman: So they know how to get to it much more quickly than I do. And they'll probably look at hashtags maybe.

[9:47] Rachel Hoffman: Yes, definitely hashtags and who knows who and who's tagged in this or that. Again, I'm not the expert in it. I know it happens a lot and I know we rely on it.

[10:00] Kerry Butler: That's a really good pointer.

[10:03] Rachel Hoffman: Yes, because that means you could be anywhere in the world and get a call from a Broadway casting director.

[10:08] Kerry Butler: Oh, yes, absolutely, 100%.

[10:10] Rachel Hoffman: Yes, and it happens. So yes, we're people who aren't expecting it. They just did a search for we're doing the Aretha Franklin biopic. And for kids to play her when she was young, they did these crazy searches and all through social media.

[10:27] Kerry Butler: Wow.

[10:29] Rachel Hoffman: How important do you think it is for actors to go to college?

[10:32] Rachel Hoffman: Okay, my answer on this has shifted, I think, a little bit over the years. I will speak for myself and say college and the training I got at college was the most important thing, not just in my career, both as an actor and as a casting director, but in life.

[10:54] Kerry Butler: I agree.

[10:55] Rachel Hoffman: In learning life lessons and learning what happens outside of the classroom and learning how to figure out finances and be on your own and manage time and cook for yourself. All of these things, you know, do your taxes. So college for me was of the utmost importance. I was lucky to have a family who could help me pay for college. And college is really expensive. And when you and I were in college, I think there were 10, 15 musical theater training programs.

[12:06] Rachel Hoffman: College for a lot of people can be a big expense, and the truth is, if you go way into debt, if you're then going to try and make it as an actor, it's going to take a long time to pay off that debt in, let's face it, a job where I think actors interview for jobs more than any other profession. You have to be interviewing for jobs, even when you have the job, you are always on interviews, you're always working and looking for the next job because there's no security, really, unless you land in a Hamilton or a Wicked or whatever. But even then, contracts end. You don't know whether you'll be asked back. So you always have to be looking for that, and so you can't ever really have an income that you rely on for the long haul, which I think probably makes paying off debt difficult.

So anyway, going back to your question of college, I think it's really valuable. I think for a lot of people, it's really important, and I think if it's not your path, that's okay, too. And I think weighing how much debt to go into versus move to New York, give it a shot. Now granted, or move to Chicago, you don't have to move to New York. Move somewhere or start auditioning somewhere. New York is not a cheap place to be, no matter what. And see how it goes, and you can do really good training in this city. You could take a year off. You can take a year off between high school and college. Or do a year, and if it's not your thing, don't be going into so much debt if that's your lot.

[13:58] Kerry Butler: Yeah, I mean, I think for me, college was also an incredible experience. I learned I could be funny in college. I never knew that before. But at the same time, there are amazing teachers in New York City. You have to get training.

[14:11] Rachel Hoffman: Yeah, and your training doesn't stop when college ends. I think that college leads to a launching pad for you, probably in some ways. Gives you a lot of the base and a lot of specifics. And then you can't stop your voice lessons. You can't stop your dance classes. You want to keep up that acting muscle.

[14:35] Kerry Butler: Yeah, you stop, you lose it.

[14:37] Rachel Hoffman: Yeah. It's like, I mean, I really do think performers are athletes. It is not your physical being and what you do physically every day is what you're relying on for your income. So you can't, like a marathon runner doesn't stop running once they win a marathon, once they complete a marathon. If they're going to keep doing it, they have to keep going. I still take acting lessons, you know, when I get a part that's hard for me or something, just to have another set of eyes.

[15:04] Kerry Butler: Yeah. Do you take voice lessons still?

[15:06] Rachel Hoffman: I do. Same thing. But I have done it for so long that I have my tapes. I now know my voice so well that I know what exercises I need to do to get to where I need to go. In different roles, do you, and now I'm interviewing you, in different roles, do you have, you're like, okay, I know I need to be in this mixy place for this role, or I know I need to get more into it. I mean, you played Belle on Broadway. You had to be a major soprano in that show.

[15:35] Kerry Butler: Yeah. Yeah. It's all about figuring out like, oh, if I'm singing high, I can't push hard into the low part. And even my speaking voice throughout the day, I'll have to talk like this throughout the day.

[15:47] Rachel Hoffman: To save it.

[15:49] Kerry Butler: Yeah. But so, you know, my years of doing this has given me the experience that I don't necessarily need to go to my voice teacher. Usually I can fix it on my own. I still go to her because I love her and she is very valuable.

[16:03] Rachel Hoffman: Yeah.

[16:04] Kerry Butler: But I definitely don't need, but I, and before every single show, I do my half hour warm ups. So I still do all the work. I just don't have somebody else doing it. And also the other point I want to make about college is that it doesn't get you a job at all. So you're only going for the training and the experience. People won't look at your resume and be like, oh, they went to this college. We're going to hire them on Broadway now. Pretty much ever.

[16:29] Rachel Hoffman: People ask me, I get asked quite frequently, does it matter where you go to college? And my answer to that is it's not the, it's not going to get you the job or not get you the job. You have to walk in the room and be the best person for the job and be prepared and, you know, and, and win the role through an audition. The place where I think, you know, I certainly do look at that on a resume because over the years I've gotten to know, you know, certain schools and you know, you can rely, like when you see a certain school on a resume, you're like, oh, they know what they're doing. So if I'm, you know, taking a chance on a new actor in an audition, maybe that helps, which is like, oh, they went to school there, haven't met them yet.

I, they usually are great when they walk in the room. That's where it can help along the way. But truly, you know, you can, anybody can get into a room if they're persistent enough. If you show up at the open calls, if you show up at the EPAs, if you, you know, so much happens online, just get, get a website, get an Instagram account, get a website. That's big right now.

[17:40] Kerry Butler: You know, for, I mean, you probably most of the shows you've been in, in the last 10 years, how many of them did you say started as like a reading or a lab or a workshop?

[17:46] Rachel Hoffman: Yeah. And so, and a lot of times like Beetlejuice, the very first reading of Beetlejuice, we did not do auditions. We just made, with the exception of the Lydia character, because we cast a kid in that. But we did not do auditions. Everybody got an offer. And Alex Timbers was like, you know, good people just, you know, throw. And there was a few people that he didn't know, but you know, I showed, I made a list, gave him a few links to a few websites and he's like, yeah, that person looks good. And so, so many of those readings start and you know, the casting community knows people because it's our job to know as many actors as possible. And, um, and, and that's how it starts. And so I think websites are very valuable.

[18:27] Kerry Butler: Noted. I will update my website ASAP. Yes. I'm going to be like, there's this new girl, Carrie Butler, who's so good. You guys should see her. Um, speaking of Beetlejuice, recently Rob McClure left the show and I had the honor of getting to be in on the auditions for the new Adam Maitland. Our parts are so intertwined. It's really like one character and Alex Timbers, our director asked me just to have, be there for a chemistry test. And, um, it was just so valuable. I loved that you brought in new people that you didn't even know. Um, and so I don't know, I thought maybe we could talk a little bit about that experience and also, but the thing that blew my mind really was that everyone was so good.

I, I didn't know how you guys could choose and I didn't want to be a part of that because I thought this changes someone's life. I can't make that decision, you know? So I was kind of like, you know, yes, those are our favorites. I agree with all those people. And you know, you guys make that decision.

[19:35] Rachel Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah. Um, it was, well, a thank you for being there. It was, it was valuable and we were actually lucky you were with us two times, two times. And so there was, you know, what we did, there was one day where it was just, I think Alex and Maddie, our stage manager, um, because our, our music director was out of town and the producers were out of town also, but we did a longer day where we saw a, a, a lot, a larger list of people. And yeah, there were, you know, in terms of, there was a lot of people that I knew. Um, I also, Alex and I had conversations, uh, leading up to that because Alex has worked with a lot of people and knows a lot of people. And we kind of went through together to talk about who, you know, who might be really good, who, um, might not work in this particular role, given the fact that the show already exists and, and you know, and, and what that means.

[20:41] Kerry Butler: Um, and, um, which, you know, sidebar, sometimes you don't get the audition or you don't get the role. Most of the time you don't get the audition or you don't get the role for reasons that have nothing to do with your talent, as you just said, everybody who walked in that room was wildly talented. And you could tell, I mean, I think it's, it's fair to say this. Some people did an amazing job and they're like, no, they're right for this part in the show or, um, or they're too close to, or they're too different. They did a fantastic job, but they, they're worried about bringing somebody so different into the role because it's already a show that's working. Do you rock the boat? What is the story that we're telling here? And is it, does this change the story because a, B or C anyway?

[21:28] Rachel Hoffman: Um, so, but yeah, when you mentioned I brought, there was a few people who, yeah, I had not met and I just hadn't had a chance a lot of times for those kinds of things. I'll bring them in for me first. I'll pre-screen them, but there wasn't time. Alex is really good about like being open to that kind of thing too. He's not a director who looks at me and goes, why did you bring that person in? Like, what were you thinking? He doesn't, he's, well, he's the nicest person ever. So, and so, and there are those people who don't want their time wasted with that, which is fine. And I don't, you know, um, but also, you know, there would be like, um, uh, an agent or a manager who would write like kind of a passionate thing.

You know, there was one guy who his roots were in the comedy world and he did some singing and he had done something with, um, uh, an up and coming writer that, you know, she's going to be big real soon. Uh, but, and I, and so I did some research then and I watched some videos and I'm like, okay, this feels worth taking a chance between the comedy chops and the fact that he sings some. I think he ultimately wasn't quite the singer, like the, wherever our song fit wasn't totally where his voice was, but it was a great audition anyway.

[22:39] Kerry Butler: Um, so yeah, I mean I hopefully, yeah, the, I always try new people. I can't do my job well if I'm not trying to meet as many people as possible, but yeah. And then, and it was fun just, um, watching how different people walk in the room.

[22:55] Rachel Hoffman: Yeah. Right. This is the, this is kind of one of the most important things I feel like, yeah. You know, when you walk in the room, you're saying, here I am, I'm here to show you what I do. Um, you know, I'm confident, I'm confident. This is what I've got and take it or leave it.

[24:12] Rachel Hoffman: And even people who made mistakes in the room. How you handle that mistake can get you the job. Oh yeah. Because if you make a mistake and then are like, oops, it's an audition, you know, like, and make it like no big deal, then we'll fall in love with you. If you make the mistake and then fall into a hole and get more nervous and... Yeah, I mean, we're all human. Nobody's perfect and humans make mistakes. And it was a hard audition because it's a rap. Oh yeah. Yes. Oh yeah. That's right. And honestly, on that, I would say eight out of 10 people, their first time through it in the audition room, just get it. Yes. Why do you apologize? You don't have a kid. That's right. Yeah. It's so hard. It's so hard.

There is like a tongue... I mean, it was so hard even learning it in the show. It took us over a week for sure to get that. Yeah. Yeah. And so nobody gets it the first time out. I mean, one or two people do. Yeah. And then... But it's like things like that aren't going to get you the job or not get you the job. It's really your essence. Yeah. And whether you look like what they want, you know, kind of whether you fit what they're envisioning.

[25:30] Kerry Butler: Yeah, absolutely. Totally. I mean, that has a lot to do with a lot of decisions, I think. Some not, but I think especially probably in a show that's already running where there's all sorts of different characters and types, the story of Adam and Barbara and their kind of journey in finding their... I think in some ways they're like love and connection with each other again, you know, somewhere along the way. And I don't know. And that was definitely an important part. Yeah. That's why it was important that I was there for them. And I, you know, I can't... I'm not looking from the outside. So I was just trusting everybody else to say, oh yeah, you have good chemistry with this person.

[26:20] Rachel Hoffman: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I was just going to... Oh, I know. So some people came in and used the chair as the crib. And I was like, oh my gosh, I would never think to do that. What do you feel about that? Using props or... I mean, it wasn't like they brought in a prop with them. Correct. For that particular song, I think it worked better. I did too. When they had something there because he's talking about polishing it and, you know, most of them had done their research and either gone to see the show or known that that's what was going on in that moment. And it is, I think sometimes like you use the use of props can kind of just like put everything at ease and give you something pedestrian to do that then makes the relationship to whoever you're talking to.

And in this case, it's the audience, you know, in that part of the song, just makes it a little more feel like a human being rather than just like now I'm singing to the audience. So I don't know. It's not that it didn't work for other people, but people found some comedic moments a little more when they could be like, you know, giving it a little extra dust at one point or, you know, the way that they would then like look at the audience like, look how great my crib is. You know, I mean, it's just fun.

[27:40] Kerry Butler: Have you seen people make mistakes with props?

[27:49] Rachel Hoffman: Probably not off the top. You know, it's interesting. I get asked occasionally, like, what's your, what's the worst audition story. What's the biggest mess up in a room. And the truth is I joke that like my brain hit capacity at age 28. And since then I only keep in my brain, the things that I need to, like I filter out the things that I don't need to remember, you know, and so, and terrible auditions. I don't have, I don't have time to remember them. That's great. It is. I know actors worry about that kind of thing and they worry if they have a terrible audition, they'll never be called in by you again. It's not true. Don't worry. She forgets about it. I don't have time to, there's too much.

I have too much other stuff to worry about. Everybody's a human being. Like we said, you make mistakes. It's a bad audition. Fine. Moving on, you know, I mean, if it happens like again and again, that's one thing, but, um, that's almost never the case. And so, um, but I'm trying to think I don't, I remember like the good prop stories, but I don't remember the, the negative prop stories.

[28:48] Kerry Butler: Okay. Sometimes your auditions are very long. You give us a lot of material to learn.

[28:57] Rachel Hoffman: I mean, like 30 pages sometimes to be clear. It is not Chelsea. That's true. That's true. That's right. It is never the casting director choosing what the material is. It's always the creative team. It's the directors and the writers and the music director and whomever else who are like, this is what we want to hear. And most of the time, if it's 32 pages of stuff, I will then go back to them and I will say, Hey, is there something at least for this first round that we should have people focus on? And then Adelaide, like we try to do that. A lot of times the answer is no, they want you to learn everything. And then inevitably they realize that it's too much. And then they'll only, they'll do one scene in one song and you're like, really? Yeah. Yeah. Because what do you suggest for people who, I mean, that's a lot of stuff. It's a time and you want us to memorize, right? Because it's best to be off book.

[29:58] Kerry Butler: I mean, I, I always hold my pages.

[30:02] Rachel Hoffman: Yeah. I think, I think that's for the actor. I think you do hold your pages. I think it depends on a, how much material there is B, how much time you've had with it? Because let's be honest, sometimes it's the night before the night before. And a lot of times what that is, is we've put out appointments a week before, but then 10 people finally, after pushing them to confirm pushing, pushing, pushing, we get like 10 cancellations at 5 PM the night before. So we want to fill the time. We want to give other people the chance. We realize that some actors then are at a disadvantage, but in which case I promise you, the casting director is saying, look, she got this last night or, you know, I, yeah, we're, cause we don't want to look like idiots either.

You know, like we don't want the team behind the table to think, why do you call on this person? Who's so unprepared. I want to say I had five cancellations last night. I wanted to get somebody else. And I think, you know, she could be right. Let's get, you know, so helpful for me. I don't know about you guys, but that is really good news. It is. And so, I mean, you know, I, I can't, I, I can't speak for every casting director out there, but I promise we don't want to look like idiots either. We don't want to look like we called in terrible people. Right. Yeah. We, we never even think about that. Yeah. Yeah. And you shouldn't have to, but like it is, it's never, we're never going, Hmm, let's wait until the night before to give Carrie Butler 40 pages and three new songs to learn.

[31:36] Kerry Butler: Um, what do you have any like secret tips or anything like that for young actors starting out anything you wish you knew when you were in school, you know, I, well, I got to say earlier, one of the biggest things I learned when I, you know, switched from being on one side of the table to the other is if you don't get the callback, if you don't get the job, it doesn't have anything to do with your talent. And it's huge. And it's, it's easy to forget that it's easy not to know that. And there are so many factors at play with, with everything, you know, um, you're, we're, it's a business of taste, you know, and one director's taste is going to be completely different than another director's taste.

Um, one thing I know, you know, actors starting out, think about a lot is like, you know, what's my type and knowing type that word comes up a lot. And here's what I liked it for some people it's super clear and, um, they know themselves, they know who they are, they know what they do well, they know what they don't do well. And awesome for some actors, it's really difficult. They have a hard time, you know, fitting into the quote unquote norms. And, you know, who knows? I mean, I think that's all shifting a bit too, um, in this day and age. Um, but I always encourage them not to stress about type. I say audition for everything, and you will start to see where the industry sees you, where you fit, um, and see what you're getting called back for.

See what auditions, songs, and material are more successful for you. Um, but don't try, don't try to type yourself out of something before you really know. Um, you know, I, like, you know, some, if you gave two different directors hairspray to cast in their, you know, summer stock theaters, um, one of them might cast this girl as, as Penny and one might cast the same girl as Amber, you know, like, I mean, just depending on what they see or what they envision or what happens in the room that day, or, you know, so I say, don't worry so much about type, um, like get here, get, or wherever you're going, start auditioning and see what you get called back for. And I think it'll start to become clearer to you.

[34:09] Rachel Hoffman: That's great. Yeah. People always have. Yeah, it is. And it's hard. And I get why they think about it and I get why it's a struggle. Um, but you know, I, I, I say, you gotta, you gotta do everything, especially when you're just starting out.

[34:15] Rachel Hoffman: Thank you, Rachel.

[34:21] Kerry Butler: Of course. Thanks for having me, Carrie.

[34:27] Kerry Butler: Thank you so much for listening to Breaking Broadway produced by Broadway Podcast Network. Opening song by Erin Acurso and Joey Mazzurino. If you like this podcast and want to hear more, please like, leave a comment or share with your friends. See you next time for more insider tips to making it on Broadway together. You and I are breaking Broadway.