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[0:04] Kerry Butler: Once I laid a penny who just couldn't stop the beat. Yes, with roller skates on her feet. Although just recently to see a real quote version of Tina. Now come with me, Emma. I am your host, Miss Kerry Butler. Together, you and I are breaking Broadway.

[0:53] Kerry Butler: Hello, welcome back to Breaking Broadway. It's me, Kerry Butler. I am super excited for our next guest in our director's series. I have someone who I actually haven't worked with before because I'm old, and I thought it would be good to have someone with a fresh take on the industry, um, someone who has a lot of buzz around them. We have Sammi Cannold with us.

[1:20] Kerry Butler: And Sammi was one of the 30 Under 30 in Forbes Hollywood and Entertainment list. She was also, she's directed Evita at the New York Center Stage. She directed a new documentary, The Show Must Go On about the survival of the theater during the pandemic. It premiered at Broadway's Majestic Theater and was the associate resident director of Natasha, Pierre & The Great Comet of 1812 on Broadway, among many other things, but those are the highlights. Sammi, thank you for being here.

[1:52] Sammi Cannold: Thank you so much for having me.

[1:54] Kerry Butler: And by the way, you are not old.

[1:58] Kerry Butler: Well, thank you. So we usually like to find out about people's journey on the show. And how did you come to become a director? Was it something you always dreamed about as a little kid? Did you go to school for it?

[2:13] Sammi Cannold: I do fall into that camp of dreaming about it as a little kid. I was very fortunate to be born into a sort of theater, film, TV family. My dad produces film and TV, and my mom produces theater and directs film. Um, and so I was always around it growing up. It was what we talked about at the dinner table. It was like everything that I knew was theater, theater, theater. Um, and so my parents tell me that like when I was a little kid, um I would put on little shows on the bathroom counter with um like little shampoo bottles that they've gotten at hotels and things. It was like very much ingrained in me. Um, and I knew what being a director was because I would spend a lot of time with my mom at work so I would see directors at their craft um and understood very early that it was something that I wanted to do. So um I had a few little detours, but otherwise it was sort of always the track I was headed on. And um I did study theater in school um with a concentration in directing.

[3:21] Kerry Butler: Um and then what school did you go to?

[3:24] Sammi Cannold: I went to Stanford for college.

[3:25] Kerry Butler: Um, amazing.

[3:27] Sammi Cannold: Yeah. And uh, you know, it's really not uh, you know, when people say, where did you go to study directing? It's usually not like in the top uh 10 places that you talk about. But um, what was amazing about it was that um they have a really robust um student theater scene and the department, the theater department there gives students a lot of opportunities to make things. So we had a 1700 seat proscenium theater that I just got to direct musicals in. And um, yeah, it was wild. And to get to play in a space um like that and with resources like the resources that Stanford has, um it was really uh I felt very lucky. Um so I'm grateful.

[4:14] Kerry Butler: And did they help you when you get, well you already had opportunity because your parents probably, but does Stanford help people like who want to be directors when you get out?

[4:23] Sammi Cannold: Yeah, I think that's you know, it's something that I'm very I've been very passionate about since since leaving Stanford, uh partly because um because it's on the West Coast, um it's sort of is often like a huge thing for Stanford students to decide that they want to take the leap and go into theater in New York specifically. Um and there aren't a ton of alumni who have done that. So um sort of building up that community and making sure that current students know that there is like a path um is something that um I'm really passionate about.

[5:02] Kerry Butler: Great. Um okay, so let's this podcast, as you know, is uh for a lot of people who are just starting out. So I would love to know what you look for it when you're having auditions.

[5:16] Sammi Cannold: Oh. I love thinking about this. Um, because I think that um to me, every director is uh different in what they're looking for. And I think that what I'm starting to learn about myself is that what I'm looking for are people who are so uniquely and specifically themselves in some like special way. And I feel like that can perhaps sound cliché or like um, you know, whatever. But I think that like when I think about the casting decisions that I've made or that I've witnessed that have worked out really well, they are people who are so unique that you can't say there's anybody else like that person. Um so that's not to say that like lots of people walk around like other people, but just that that someone's performance of a role is so singularly theirs is something that I think a lot about.

[6:20] Sammi Cannold: And I guess for actors, perhaps that's like not the most um actionable guidance because, well, no, we do we talk about that a lot on the show. We say find out what makes you special, what makes you stand out, and then don't be, many times that's the thing that we're afraid of, right?

[6:38] Kerry Butler: Right. Because we want to blend in, but we always talk about on the show, like find the thing that makes you unique. So for me, it was like, you know, being nerdy and some I wouldn't, you know, want to spread to the world. But once I tapped into that, then it's like I found my footing. And so it's like find the thing that makes you stand out, that makes you different. And a lot of times it's the things that you're afraid of about yourself.

[7:03] Sammi Cannold: Absolutely. And I think that I mean I feel like you're such a beautiful example of that, right? Because if you'd muted what made you you, I feel like so many of your iconic performances wouldn't be iconic in the way that they are because they are so uniquely and specifically you. So I think yeah but everybody has to go on that journey for themselves, right? Like I feel like I can't tell an actor what makes them special until they show.

[7:24] Kerry Butler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are some mistakes you see people make in the room?

[7:37] Sammi Cannold: Hmm overthinking I see that a lot uh and I think and I particularly I mean particularly overthinking in terms of overthinking the the um interplay between who's behind the table and and who's on the other side of the table like less overthinking the performance and more thinking like they need to say something really clever or there needs to be some like really meaningful exchange or I mean I find this one really funny um and I don't mean this in a pejorative way because everybody's out there doing their best but when people come in and they're like oh my God I know so and so that you worked with and it's like yeah the community is super small like we all know each other like I mean it's like and I don't I don't ever like dock anybody points for saying that obviously but I just find it really funny because I'm like well I know you're trying to like make a connection but in this case it's just sort of like don't don't try you don't have to try so hard. Like I know we know a lot of people, I can look at your resume and know that.

[8:52] Kerry Butler: Yeah, yeah.

[8:53] Sammi Cannold: Um, what do you think makes someone stand out in the room besides what you kind of mentioned before? Is there anything else?

[8:59] Sammi Cannold: Hmm. I hate to say this because it is something that really bothers me about the process and something that I'm like conflicted about, but honestly, like preparation. Um like if it's in the bones of the person auditioning, you can tell. Like if it feels comfortable for them, it really makes a huge difference. But again, like I try to sort of on my end, re-calibrate for that because so often I know people are getting sides like you know, 12 hours before something crazy.

[9:34] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[9:34] Sammi Cannold: So we don't always have that luxury. But I will say that like when someone comes in and it is like second nature for them, you're behind the table, your brain automatically can like sort of see them in the role because they aren't holding a piece of paper or you know, something like that.

[9:52] Kerry Butler: Um yeah, that's a really good point. And that's what I always tell like my students and everything too. I'm just like the way to get over nerves too is to just overprepare.

[10:01] Sammi Cannold: Yeah.

[10:01] Kerry Butler: Because then it's like if you're in the room or on stage and you're second guessing, like, am I gonna remember the line? Like that should be the least of your concern.

[10:11] Sammi Cannold: Exactly.

[10:11] Kerry Butler: But again, a lot of times we will get 30 pages the night before. And so there's just no way. I always hold my pages because I like to like remind the people behind the table that it's an audition.

[10:23] Sammi Cannold: That's smart.

[10:23] Kerry Butler: Oh, that makes a ton of sense.

[10:25] Sammi Cannold: Like subconsciously, you know.

[10:27] Kerry Butler: Yeah, set clear expectations for what they're seeing.

[10:33] Kerry Butler: What do you feel about um songs when you ask people to, you know, pick a song for auditions? Do you like well-known songs or more obscure? How do you even feel about like overdone songs? Like if somebody came in and sang something like "Defying Gravity"?

[10:52] Sammi Cannold: I think that like if people are gonna do "Defying Gravity" or those songs that are like done a ton, it's always what is that? The um like "Meadowlark" or like uh um uh uh they have to have like a really incredible version. Like that and because I I think that if you do a song that's done a lot and then it's just sort of fine, it doesn't teach me anything, right? Like if there's a rendition of something that is like so uniquely and specifically that actors, that that teaches me a lot more, I think, than hearing a version of "Defying Gravity" that sounds a lot like one I've heard and feels a lot like what I've heard before. So I I I guess personally I would sort of err away from overdone songs.

[11:47] Sammi Cannold: And I also think that like if like before, I was the associate, as you said, on on on "Great Comet," and um no one else, Natasha's song is like a really common audition song.

[12:02] Kerry Butler: Yes, yes.

[12:03] Sammi Cannold: Um, and now whenever I hear it, I cannot actually evaluate it if I'm on another project. Like I can't evaluate it with a blank slate because I spent years in a room listening to that song, evaluating it for that role. So it's hard to sort of I I think you also have to consider who's behind the table and like what they've worked on, because if if it's a show that they worked on or something that they have a relationship to, chances are they're gonna have really specific feelings about how it's performed.

[12:37] Kerry Butler: That is such a good point.

[12:40] Sammi Cannold: Yeah.

[12:41] Kerry Butler: So no one's ever said that, but that's so smart. Think about who you're auditioning for. And so you, because you you've worked on that song so long, you kind of have a way how you think it should be done.

[12:51] Sammi Cannold: Absolutely. And and also you have like you you start um having shortcuts in your brain for it, which is kind of terrible. But like there are it in a song like "No One Else" or or you know, "So Long" or anything from "Evita" or anything that I've like worked on a lot. Um you know the note that like if someone can hit that note, the rest of the song is gonna be fine. So you're like it's it's a little it becomes really formulaic in sort of a sad way. So I I don't love when um that happens. But I I don't I don't fault people for it, obviously, but it it I have to do a lot of mental math to like take my personal history out of it.

[13:34] Kerry Butler: Yeah. And how do you feel about obscure songs?

[13:39] Sammi Cannold: I'm totally for them. Um it like wakes you up a little bit, like, oh, I haven't heard this before. Especially when people find those gem songs. I'm trying to think what that um I've heard it so many times, I should know the name of it by now, but the but the one where it's um the girl in uh "14 G."

[14:02] Kerry Butler: Oh, yes.

[14:04] Sammi Cannold: Yeah. Um I I think about it a lot because it it's such a strategic audition song because it covers so many genres, like because the then the neighbor sings opera and then the neighbor sings something, you know, so like you you get to see the range of of a person. And I think like if people find audition songs like that that sort of show range, um those are really strategic, I think.

[14:30] Kerry Butler: Yeah, that's a really good point.

[14:32] Sammi Cannold: Yeah. You mentioned how all directors are different and how directors are looking for different things in the room. And I think it's so important just to remind our listeners of that like how you can't, there's no way you can know what this particular director is looking for in the room. So all you can be is like the best you you can be and just kind of get that out of your head because you could do the same audition for two different directors and one could love you and the other one could think you're terrible, right?

[15:01] Sammi Cannold: Absolutely. And and honestly like it it there are so many case studies in that like even I I mean I'm actually often in the room with other directors in the sense that like I work with choreographers who are directors or um as an associate I would be in the room with directors that I worked for or my associate is in the room with me. And so often our opinions are all different. So like it just goes to show it's it's not about you it's about what's in the director's head and what fits fit their envisioning so along with that all directors kind of I've noticed have different processes in creating new shows or working on shows. What is your process like, do you do the table work or do you go straight to blocking?

[15:49] Sammi Cannold: I am uh I I'm I'm learning about myself that I am quite physical in the sense that um I don't spend a lot of time at the table. I prefer to like figure out uh depth of text like while um staging, uh, because I think it sort of comes out in in in repetition. Not to say that we don't like talk about the scene before staging it or like you know, I I usually like read it through once, but then we get on our feet right after. Um and I I pre-block everything and uh always come into the room with a plan, um, but often abandon the plan. Um, but it is like a way for me to feel like there's somewhere for us to start, and then you know, we can build and work from there and uh actor ideas or you know, choreographer ideas or whatever, you know, like it we sort of all build on each other from there. But I I've um I've tried a few times to go into the room without prep and I feel very lost.

[16:57] Kerry Butler: Um I was gonna say it helps you not feel lost.

[17:00] Sammi Cannold: Yeah.

[17:02] Sammi Cannold: Yeah. So that that's but but I know plenty of directors who come in and are like, I don't know what this scene looks like. Let's figure it out.

[17:03] Kerry Butler: I know.

[17:11] Sammi Cannold: I know that's the interesting thing. It really is a completely different room and a different process depending on the director.

[17:17] Kerry Butler: Yeah. Do you have any pet peeves about like that that process, that rehearsal time?

[17:27] Sammi Cannold: I think you know pretty quickly when you're working with an actor whether or not they're like a yes and person or a no person. And I think that like there are definitely a few actors that I worked with, and and the majority of actors are not this way, but definitely a few who the sort of default is like um skepticism towards what they're being given. Um rather than okay, um, I'm gonna try what you just asked me to do. Um, and we'll see how it works. Or like, okay, I'm gonna try what you asked me to do. And I have this idea of like what I could add on to it, or like I'm gonna try this, but I have this question about it. But there are a few actors um who sort of come into the room with a push-pull to it already. And I find that very challenging.

[18:27] Kerry Butler: Um, I think that's that's great advice. Yes and.

[18:31] Sammi Cannold: And I think part of it also, like, I mean, for actors, think about part of it is also like um the politics of who your director is. Like, I think that happens more to me.

[18:43] Kerry Butler: Um I I actually was thinking that without saying it.

[18:46] Sammi Cannold: Yeah.

[18:48] Sammi Cannold: Um, you know, a young, a young female director who is this kid telling me what to do. I could I could see, I could see that. And and so it it conversely, it means a lot, you know, particularly when when very seasoned actors come into the room and are like, I'm here, I trust you. What do you want? Like, you know, um not to say that I like need everybody to think all my ideas are great, but I do need people to like at least open to getting on board.

[19:16] Kerry Butler: Yes.

[19:17] Sammi Cannold: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, and not to turn this into any kind of like political thing, but I do think women have a harder time in our industry in general.

[19:26] Kerry Butler: I agree.

[19:27] Sammi Cannold: I agree that's why I'm trying to bring a lot of female directors on my show too because um I'm hoping I do see I see somewhat of a change and I hope I mean the statistics are like crazy aren't they?

[19:43] Kerry Butler: Do you know what they are?

[19:43] Sammi Cannold: Like awful it's like it's pretty insane. Really depressing it's um uh I think I mean the last two years who don't measure anything but yeah you can't count um uh but prior to that I think the the last season was um 13% of Broadway musicals were directed by women um and it it's usually lower than that um yeah yeah so you know yeah not great um what about how do you feel about people it's kind of a kind of a tack on to that last question um asking questions in the room like is there time for questions or is it like open to any time?

[19:49] Sammi Cannold: I think absolutely I think it's um about knowing it's been really about reading the room to me like as an actor yeah because um on most processes you'll have that one actor who's like the question actor um and I love them really um uh and if it's a luxurious process that's like totally welcome and okay.

[21:13] Sammi Cannold: And like if you're a question actor, that process is not for you. Um you have to answer your own questions. How do you have mark and then like asking, you know, important questions, but um, and I think also it's like, you know, I um I learned this thing from working for Diane Paulus, where she um used to always wanted to work with her. She she she used to do this thing, I don't know if she still does it, but um, where uh she would on the like first day of rehearsal give everybody in the company an assignment to do a presentation on who their character is. And there were like certain yeah, it it was it it's great. And there's like a there's a worksheet that you get that basically tells you what you need to include in your presentation.

[21:56] Kerry Butler: That's so fun.

[22:09] Sammi Cannold: It was super fun. I mean, like the and and really what that did, in my opinion, and I I've I've stolen it and done it on a lot of my processes, is gives the ensemble an opportunity to like flesh out who they are, because I think that like that's actually where the questions get tricky, right? Because there is time built in to like have a lot of question time with your lead, but a lot of the ensemble character development is sort of left to them.

[22:31] Kerry Butler: Yes.

[22:46] Sammi Cannold: Um and I think that like that exercise really helped a lot of people to actually like answer a lot of their questions up front so that they knew who they were, um, and then could sort of build from there.

[23:01] Kerry Butler: Oh, I love that. So would they actually present what they prepared?

[23:04] Sammi Cannold: Yeah. So basically it was like on Monday, we would get this worksheet, and then on like Friday of the first week, everybody would give a presentation. Um it was fun. I mean, it's like good bonding. It's it's like everybody gets to show their creativity. I mean, I just remember some of these presentations, people went all out.

[23:26] Kerry Butler: Um I bet.

[23:29] Sammi Cannold: Yeah. They're like, this is my chance to shine.

[23:32] Kerry Butler: Completely.

[23:33] Sammi Cannold: I mean, I still remember, like, I worked on Finding Neverland, and I will never ever forget like Thane Jasperson was playing the dog. And for his presentation, we were in like New 42. Um, and if you're listening and you don't know it, it has these like big windows that look out on 42nd Street. And um he did this presentation where he went out onto 42nd Street with his phone and gave um and and called the stage manager in the studio, and the stage manager put him on speaker, and he got on hands and knees and was like crawling around 42nd Street as a dog. Whilst on speaker phone with the whole company. And it was like, but but actually it was like we learned a lot about his character.

[24:24] Kerry Butler: Um anyway, uh that's awesome.

[24:30] Sammi Cannold: I love that. Um, and you guys, if you don't have a director that, you know, does that fun exercise, that is something you should do on your own. Like before my before I start shows, I usually write like a 30-page biography on my characters and their relationship to all the people that you know that are in the show with them and their childhood, all that stuff, just you know, to flesh it out.

[24:51] Kerry Butler: That's amazing.

[24:54] Sammi Cannold: Well, you know, I mean, you don't see that stuff on stage, but it makes a big difference to who you are uh as an actor. And I don't know, I think like tiny moments then will suddenly come to life because of what you did in your backstory.

[25:09] Kerry Butler: Right, right. Um so since you are young and uh fresh, I am wondering if you have any unconventional ways that you think people can make it now, or the things that I wouldn't know about, I'm sure, um, although it's hard with the pandemic.

[25:26] Sammi Cannold: Yeah.

[25:26] Kerry Butler: But um, what do you see as like good ways for people to break into the business?

[25:32] Sammi Cannold: Um I think I would say sort of generally it's about finding your niche, whatever that means for you. Um like where I got lucky was that uh I found the niche of site-specific musical theater. Um and like the first few things that I did were um site-specific musicals in a moment where there weren't many.

[26:05] Kerry Butler: What is what does that mean, site-specific musicals?

[26:08] Sammi Cannold: So, like the very first thing I um directed in New York was a concert version of ragtime that was um set on Ellis Island. Um, and so it was sort of um embracing the that that site as like the the um and you know um and then the the uh this wasn't in New York but but the second sort of professional thing that I did was um a production of Violet that was set on a moving bus because that show is takes place on a bus but is usually performed on a stage but I I did a production of it that was that was um on a bus.

[26:48] Kerry Butler: And oh my gosh I love that that's so exciting.

[26:52] Sammi Cannold: Thank you. I love when um shows are done in like completely different and inventful ways. It it was I mean both projects were such a gift and um I think they each in their own way sort of allowed me to quote unquote break in because they were it they filled a niche that wasn't at that moment being filled and so got a lot of attention and then it sort of allowed me to have conversations about what I wanted to do next. And uh so I I think I got really lucky there. But when I think about like actress who you know break in or whatever it's it's usually because they find that niche role that is like so specifically them and then they just sort of you know blow up from there.

[27:47] Kerry Butler: But are there any like um new theater companies that you love that you know we might not know about because they're so small or um regional theaters or you know um like Williamstown, kind of places like that.

[28:03] Sammi Cannold: Yeah. You know, one of the other ways in which I I got very lucky is that I um I went to uh Harvard for grad school and the ART, which is on Harvard's campus, um, obviously, you know, um in the Broadway community, we know uh their work from all the things that have um, you know, transferred for to New York, like, you know, Waitress and Pippin and Porgy Mess and Great Comet, all of them. Um, but I think one of the things that isn't talked about as much is that there's this like incredible um internship program that um is mostly for Harvard students, but every year there are a few black sheep like me who uh like in that internship program, you work on those those productions that in many cases are uh Broadway bound.

And so you are working with um, you know, incredible professionals at the top of their game and uh getting to learn from them. And then oftentimes what happens is when the show moves to New York or London or wherever it's going, uh there are opportunities for those student interns to uh go with the show. Um and that was what uh happened to me on a number of productions. Um I'm very grateful for it because it sort of allowed me to take what I was learning in an academic setting and sort of move it into a into a professional one.

[29:38] Kerry Butler: Yeah, that's awesome. Um, you have been an amazing guest. Thank you so much for being on the show. Really insightful. Uh, is there anything that you want to plug?

[29:53] Sammi Cannold: Oh sure. I know you've been doing a bunch of workshops and stuff with some of my friends. Like I've heard about I've heard buzz about like the show Joy and a few other things I've I've heard your name thrown around.

[30:07] Sammi Cannold: Oh, thanks. Um yeah, I've I've uh I've gotten to do a lot of uh workshops this fall, which was really I'm especially grateful for given it's been quite a while since any of us have done anything. Um but I guess the the thing I will I will plug if anybody listening to this is on the West Coast, um, is uh I am uh uh about to head to Los Angeles to direct um a new play called The Excavation of Mary Anning, uh, which will be at uh the Wallace uh in Beverly Hills and um open in late February. So um if you're around there, please come see it.

[30:48] Kerry Butler: Amazing. Thank you. And um, I hope I get to work with you one day.

[30:52] Sammi Cannold: Oh my gosh, I would be so honored. What a dream.

[30:58] Kerry Butler: Thank you, Sammi.

[31:00] Sammi Cannold: Thank you.

[31:02] Kerry Butler: Thank you so much for listening. If you like this podcast and want more episodes, please take a second to rate it. Check out my website, Kerry Butler Coach for more info on private coaching and teaching at schools. You can follow me on Instagram, Kerry Butler1, and visit bpn.fm slash breaking broadway for always to listen, follow, subscribe, hear past episodes of Breaking Broadway, and find out more information. Together you and I are breaking Broadway.