This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:04] Cheyenne Jackson: Once I played a penny who just couldn't stop the beat.

[0:10] Cheyenne Jackson: Yes, with all their skits on her feet.

[0:17] Cheyenne Jackson: Although just recently to see a real quo version of Tina.

[0:33] Cheyenne Jackson: Tina.

[0:36] Kerry Butler: Now come with me, Emma.

[0:40] Kerry Butler: I am your host, Miss Kerry Butler.

[0:44] Kerry Butler: Together, you and I are breaking Broadway.

[0:53] Kerry Butler: Hello everyone. Welcome back to Breaking Broadway. I have a special guest today, one of my co-stars, and now he's a huge superstar, Cheyenne Jackson.

[1:06] Kerry Butler: Um, he's been on Broadway in All Shook Up, started in Thoroughly Modern Millie. Um, also did Xanadu with me, and he's gone on to star in tons of TV shows. American Horror Story, Hades in the Descendants, Call Me Cat, so so many. I I'm not even mentioning them all, but thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show, Cheyenne Jackson.

[1:30] Cheyenne Jackson: Yay! Thanks for having me, Kerry. So good to see you.

[1:34] Kerry Butler: You look exactly the same.

[1:36] Cheyenne Jackson: You too, you too.

[1:38] Kerry Butler: Um, so I always start the podcast by asking people about their journey to theater, and I know that you have a fascinating story. Um, tell the whole story.

[1:49] Cheyenne Jackson: Sure. Okay, so my journey to theater.

[1:52] Cheyenne Jackson: Yeah, like you saw where you grew up and how you... yeah, okay.

[1:56] Cheyenne Jackson: So for those of you who don't know, I come from a teeny little town right on the border of Washington and Idaho. Um, so I really the Ponderai River ran through the two states, but I lived in Washington State, but I went to school in this little town called Old Town, Idaho.

[2:13] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, last I checked, Old Town, Idaho has a population of 252.

[2:18] Kerry Butler: Wow.

[2:19] Cheyenne Jackson: I was just there for my 30th high school reunion, and I was just like 253 or 252.

[2:25] Kerry Butler: Wow.

[2:26] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, so we grew up very poor. Uh, we lived in the woods. You know, for a time we didn't have running water, we used an outhouse. It was very living off the land, and my parents were hippies and um, and uh, you know, it was a really when I talked to my kids about it now, they can't even wrap their heads around it, but it was a really cool way to grow up because it was all I knew.

[2:52] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, and from the time I can remember music was everywhere in the house. My dad loved music. Um, my mom is an incredible self-taught singer, so everything was like Joan Baez, you know, Judy Collins, Joni Mitchell.

[3:12] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, so music was always a huge part of my life, but I didn't know what Broadway was until I think I think the very first time I ever heard what Broadway was, I loved yard sales. And I would go to the yard sales in the neighborhood and find like, you know, back then it was just tapes, it was even before CDs, and um, I think I got the Annie Broadway recording, and then soon after that the movie came out, and so it was all only Annie.

[3:45] Cheyenne Jackson: That was the only thing I knew. But really, my first, if I'm totally linear with my thinking, that the first time I ever knew what Broadway was on a whole was I was 13, and um, I was in eighth grade, and our French teacher, Mrs. Henry, she said that this show was coming to Spokane, Washington, um, called Les Miserables.

[4:15] Cheyenne Jackson: Oh, she was the French teacher, and that's what she called it. And uh, I didn't know what that was, but I was so excited because we all had to sign like parent teacher consent forms because there were prostitutes in the show, and um gosh, so we were really excited because we got to take an hour-long bus ride to Spokane, and um, I didn't know I had no clue what to expect, but I just remember sitting there in the audience, and the you know, the curtain rose, and then you know, uh, and I remember just the hair on my arm standing.

[4:50] Cheyenne Jackson: I don't have any hair, but I just I just remember feeling overwhelmed with the music and the emotion and the passion and the commitment, everyone on stage with their smudges on their cheeks and their you know, rags and their marching, and I was like, what is happening? I cannot believe I just was asking people like this is so this is their job.

[5:16] Cheyenne Jackson: They are in this show and they travel around with this show, and they're like, Yeah, it's it's a tour from Broadway. And I'm like, so then I started to make the connection, and then after that, it was all things Broadway. I just found every kind of tape I could get my hands on.

[5:31] Cheyenne Jackson: And that was my end goal was to end up on Broadway. I mean, I didn't know how. I didn't know, you know, I didn't um, I didn't go to college and I had a lot of things I had to figure out personally.

[5:48] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, I was in a very religious, I was in a church in my very religious family, and I also had to come out of the closet and I had a lot of work to do, I knew, before I could just go to Broadway.

[6:02] Cheyenne Jackson: So I think I was manifesting before I even knew what that was, but I just always knew I was gonna be on Broadway. I didn't know I didn't know that because I thought that you I thought that you thought it was out of your reach when when you kind of told me the story, and because you were living in Seattle, just doing theater in Seattle for a long time, right?

[6:26] Cheyenne Jackson: Yes, yes. Now, in retrospect, I can of course see how I was, you know, putting it out there in the universe, but at the time, Kerry, yeah, I was like, I had I there was no way I was actually gonna like be on Broadway, you know.

[6:42] Cheyenne Jackson: But that was my dream, that was my inside, it might in my heart of hearts in my secret times when the doors shut and I'm in my bed, I could see it, I could see it for myself. But people in my little town really didn't do anything.

[6:57] Cheyenne Jackson: And you just ended up working at the mill and having a bunch of kids and staying around that area, and I didn't want that for myself. Um, but once I started doing theater, community theater, like in Coeur d'Alene, it was my first summer stock experience, and I met queer people and I met people of color for the very first time, and just saw this crazy circus that is theater.

[7:24] Cheyenne Jackson: I just I was like, oh, this is my peep, these are my people. This is my tribe. I feel, you know, I don't feel other.

[7:32] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, I wanted to move to New York in my early 20s, but I had so much doubt about um my lack of training because I had seen and heard of people my age, uh, you know, moving to New York and getting on things, and this was the time of Rent when everything was everything was Rent and Rent blew up musical theater like like Hamilton did.

[7:58] Cheyenne Jackson: It was just that such a juggernaut. Um, but I thought I can't compete with these guys that went to you know Juilliard and and and I just so I decided to move to Seattle and keep doing theater, get better at it, um, get a bunch more shows under my belt, mature a little bit.

[8:22] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, so I moved to Seattle and I started working and I got my equity card at the Village Theatre in Issaquah, Washington, and then I started working at the Fifth Avenue Theatre, and it was a great, great place and a great place for people starting out Seattle is right.

[8:36] Kerry Butler: Didn't you guys do Hairspray there?

[8:38] Cheyenne Jackson: Hairspray and Catch Me If You Can.

[8:40] Kerry Butler: Oh, right.

[8:42] Cheyenne Jackson: So it was about I was about 24, 25, I think.

[8:48] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, and I thought, like, ooh, my window's kind of closing, which is so crazy when I think about it now. I mean, I'm, you know, we're I'm in 48.

[8:56] Cheyenne Jackson: But at the time, I was like, oh God, I'm I'm in my mid-20s. I haven't tried, I haven't really gone for my goal yet.

[9:04] Cheyenne Jackson: And all the tours would come through Seattle. And I had become at this point kind of like a big star in Seattle. I was a big musical theater star and did all the shows.

[9:11] Cheyenne Jackson: And this tour came in of Guys and Dolls.

[9:17] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, and it was all New York people that all had tons and tons of Broadway credits.

[9:24] Cheyenne Jackson: And we were all at a party one night, and we were all kind of, you know, I was just like hanging on every word they said, and like, what's Broadway like? And what do you do? Do you do you guys all walk together? Or do you like how is it? You know, I couldn't wrap my head around the idea that it's just this neighborhood of, you know.

[9:41] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, and I was in a show at the time, I was doing Hair at the Fifth Avenue Theatre. I was playing Berger, and it was a really wild, free performance, and I was felt very in my body.

[9:53] Cheyenne Jackson: And some of those people from that cast had seen it. And more than one of them at a party, they're like, you need to move to New York. You have something that will that will land, you have something unique, and I'm telling you, you will work.

[10:10] Cheyenne Jackson: And I think it was an internal clock plus people that actually know what they're talking about, saying that to me, that I was like, okay, okay, I'm gonna actually try this.

[10:23] Cheyenne Jackson: Took me about a year and a half more to get everything together.

[10:26] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, soon after that 9/11 happened, which gave me even more impetus to make something happen for my life.

[10:36] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, also at that same time, my brother's little girl passed away. She was three.

[10:42] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, and these huge changes, these huge sad and life rocking, you know, changes, you know, that 9/11 and and just the way that we were all thinking, like, oh my God, this could all go away in one second.

[10:58] Cheyenne Jackson: This that was my time to say, you know what? I'm going. I don't have an agent. I don't have headshots. I've never taken an acting class or attack class or anything.

[11:08] Cheyenne Jackson: But I, it is time for me to go now.

[11:12] Cheyenne Jackson: And I had a boyfriend at the time, and I said, I'm gonna go and I'm just gonna take this leap.

[11:20] Cheyenne Jackson: Had a little bit of money, like a little bit of money, and he said, Go and I'll join you later.

[11:25] Cheyenne Jackson: So I went and I got this, I was staying at this crappy little apartment or this little hotel in Midtown where like you couldn't even open the door all the way, and it was the bed.

[11:35] Cheyenne Jackson: It was like this little thing. But the one person that I knew in New York, um, because he had toured through Spokane, or sorry, toured through Seattle was Mark Kudisch.

[11:48] Cheyenne Jackson: And we had we became friends.

[11:51] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, and he was just like a big brother to me, and he was just so bombastic. He was just this like cartoon of a man. But I um his heart was so big, and I felt like he was really genuine. And you know, a lot of people say, like, hey, when you come to the city, look me up. But there was something about him where I was like, I really feel like he doesn't want anything from me, and he is just very generous. Uh so he's uh he's all I knew. And I got there and I called him, and he was like, All right, dude, I'm gonna I'm gonna hook you up with my uh my agent and gosh. I went down to uh Bauman Redanti and Shaw um and I walked in and they took one look at me and they're like, okay, so Mark told us about you.

Do you want to sing something? And I Carrie, I don't know why I had so much confidence, but I wish I could harness that again because I truly just was like, I'm here, and I'm gonna convince everyone that I come in contact with that you need to have me in your show. I just believed it, and I sang and then I I read a scene or two, and they signed me, and then my very first audition, strangely, was the first uh they needed somebody in Thoroughly Modern Millie to understudy Mark Kutish and Gavin Creel. And they were having trouble finding somebody who could sing really high to cover Gavin and sing really low to cover Mark, who also looked kind of young and also kind of old, and that's always been me.

I mean, at 16, I looked, you know, 35. And so um, so I went in and I I remember um Michael Mayer, who was who was directing, he I didn't have any, I had taken pictures the day before, and I had my composite, but I didn't have pictures yet. So I had my little composite with like the Sharpie on it. Yeah, that's all I had, and um, and and Michael Mayer was like, I remember he said Cheyenne Jackson, as if it was like my fake name. Like I made it up, and I was like, Yep, that's my name. And I I had so much confidence. I was just like tearing around this room. I had I had two days heads up that I was going to be auditioning for this. And there's a very famous uh Patter song in Thoroughly Modern Millie, where it's like, you know, enclosure minus Michael Jander wrote this stuff I talk about, just carefully removal.

And I've always been able to speak very quickly and articulate. And I stayed up all night long working on that. The scenes were there, the everything was there except for the dancing. So it's a huge heavy dance show. It's a tap show. I don't know what I was thinking, but my singing and my acting was strong enough to where they were like, okay, let's do this dance call. And I think if I wasn't terrible, it would they were gonna let me pass. Um it was down to me and two other guys for this part, and I could tell it was getting close. Um, he said, Okay, everybody just do a time step. Didn't know what that was. Oh like and the other two guys were like tack, you know, and then the other one, and it came to me, Rob Ashford, the choreographer.

He whispered in my ear, he's like, You don't tap, do you? And I said, I don't at all. But if you hire me, I will learn. And he said, Uh, you better. And um, that night they brought me to uh the theater, and uh they introduced me to the cast. It was very quick and very like wow, yeah, that's Michael Michael Mayer took me to the lobby and he he kind of put his arm around me and he's like, This is a story for the ages. Uh a kid walks off the bus and walks into a Broadway show, and you know, they had just won the Tony for best musical. Mark Kutish, who didn't even know I was auditioning for his understudy, walks down the stairs and sees me. He's like, dude, what are you doing here? I'm like, I'm your new understudy.

And he he started crying, gave me a hug. Oh that's also when I met Gavin. And Gavin is my best friend to this day. Gavin tells it that he was in his dressing room and he heard through the through the wall somebody singing his song, in his words, better than him. And he was like, uh, am I? Which is not true. Gavin is the best voice of all time. But um, yeah, that is the that's my road to Broadway. And I was with that show for uh a year, I think, year and a half.

[16:25] Kerry Butler: We'll be back with Breaking Broadway right after this message. And then what happened after that?

[16:35] Cheyenne Jackson: Yeah, what happened after that was I well, the truth is, um, and I think enough time has gone by that I can divulge this. But the truth is I was told that I was going to uh replace Gavin full time. I had gone on a lot for both of them because Mark was doing an opera and Gavin did like a TV movie, and so I was really, you know, uh good with both parts. But um, they said, we're gonna hire you full-time to play, you know, Jimmy. And I was just like, this is incredible. And um, and then as it was getting closer and closer, it I that I got the sense that maybe that wasn't happening anymore. And then one day I came to work and there was an announcement on the board that um that Christian Borle was playing. Oh, and that's how you found out.

[17:24] Kerry Butler: Yeah, that's how I found out.

[17:26] Cheyenne Jackson: And um, and I decided to leave while it was still running. Um and I remember my my mentor and my neighbor at the time. I lived, I happened of all places in the world, I ended up moving next to Jerry Orbach. Oh on 53rd and 8th, which is now Jerry Orbach Way. And he I love mentors. I always have mentors. Um Xanadu, Tony Roberts was my guy. I love an older theater mentor to help me, and I I do the same now. But he said, What are you doing? You don't leave a Broadway hit. You you gotta don't do this. Like it's and I said, I just feel I'm upset that I was told I was gonna do something, it didn't happen. I understand for people have their reasons or whatever, but I just I feel in my heart that I have to leave.

Um, so I did. I left. I didn't have anything to go to, but I was workshopping at the time, um, Altar Boys. Oh, yes. The off-Broadway uh thing, and it was it was my first time originating something, and it was about a Christian boy band, and that was it couldn't be more me. So I just had a sense that something else was out there for me. So yeah, I left. Um, and then I ended up had getting an audition to be uh Will Chase's and then Adam Pascal's standby in Aida. Right.

[18:58] Kerry Butler: Right.

[18:58] Cheyenne Jackson: And went in for that, had a great audition. They hired me for that. Um and that was just a fun, really, you know, glitzy, wonderful score. Uh, made some great friends, did that for a long time, got to go on a lot. And um, and then soon after that, that's when we were starting hearing about All Shook Up. Oh that all that All Shook Up was we had heard I had heard that there was an Elvis musical that somebody was already attached to, and for whatever reason, they may not be continuing with it, and I was possibly in the mix. Now, Carrie, I grew up. I knew every single Elvis song in the canon. My brother, my dad, it was all about. I mean, I have videos at like 12 years old at the county fair going, oh I just thought this is mine.

There is no one that can do this like me. I I have to have to have to do this show. And they really put me through the ringer. Uh, as they should have, because I didn't, I wasn't a proven, you know, name or anything. Yeah. I think I had about seven auditions for that. Wow. And uh yeah, and then I came in and then uh Jen Gambatese was still with it, and then um, yeah, I don't know what the circumstances were that Jared Emmick, who was doing it before, couldn't couldn't continue, but um I stepped into that, and then that was just an amazing experience to create a role out of town. We did it in Chicago and then open it. I mean, my little hick parents, my dad seeing my face on a taxi and a billboard in Times Square.

It was like I I remember those times, it feels like a lifetime ago, but I remember thinking, I want to remember what this feels like because this is all I've ever wanted, and at that time I was 29, maybe 30. I think I was 30. Um, so I wasn't 19. You know what I mean? I was a I was a I was a man, I was a I was an adult, and I really thought I want to be present for what this feels like because I know careers are going to be like this, and who knows what will happen with All Shook Up. And we had such bad timing with that show because it opened after like three jukebox musicals, and people were like, enough, enough with the jukebox musicals. And so we closed like in like five months, which was a huge bummer. But um, yeah. And then was Xanadu right after that.

[21:58] Kerry Butler: Let me think.

[21:58] Cheyenne Jackson: I think so. I should know this off the top of my head. It's just been so long. I think I think that was the next show, but there was a lot of readings, a lot of things in between. Um, I think it was. Yeah. Yeah. And then I did all those workshops.

[22:18] Kerry Butler: Yeah. How was your transition to um doing film and television? You were auditioning for stuff while we were doing Xanadu a lot of stuff, I feel like.

[22:28] Cheyenne Jackson: It it all started during Xanadu. So yeah, I had been auditioning and I wasn't landing anything. And I took an on-camera. My agents at the time said, let's take an on-camera class and see what's going on with you. I was like, because I felt like everything, I felt like I felt like I was good, but I didn't know why why I wasn't getting anything. And this uh this on-camera class taught by Bob Krakow. I don't know if he still is still teaches. Um he he had us do these scenes and it was an extreme close up and then we had to watch them back with the class and I didn't realize how animated my face is the muscles in my mouth my eyebrows whatever I just it I looked crazy I was so big everything was it was just it was super embarrassing but it was actually really really great because I learned how to calibrate I learned how to have the same emotional intent but just like think it just say it with your eyes you don't have to like indicate it so I read then I started getting closer to things um then Xanadu the workshops came around and I was doing all that with Jane Krakowski.

[22:56] Kerry Butler: I want to hear about your how that happened with with Xanadu for you because all I know is my side of how Xanadu all happened but Jane and I did a bunch of workshops um it was super cute first reading of Xanadu you were yeah yeah yeah I had the first reading and I think Mary Testa and Jackie Hoffman were also and this was just um Douglas Carter Bean was doing it for some event or something and um oh gosh now oh Alan Tudyk played your part oh he's so good oh my god he'd have been great.

[24:30] Cheyenne Jackson: Wow.

[24:31] Kerry Butler: Yeah, and so that was the very, very first reading. It was totally different. It was two acts. And they went on all of these other... I mean, hilarious still, but it went on all these different tangents. And then I didn't even, I don't think I even knew that it was going on without me.

[24:49] Cheyenne Jackson: Oh, really?

[24:50] Kerry Butler: Oh, I've been there. Um, yeah. And then maybe they called me, maybe they called me to tell me that I was being... I think maybe they did. I think, you know, I understood, you know, I think they were like, you know, in this market, we need a star to sell shows. I think that's what happened.

[25:11] Cheyenne Jackson: Yeah. And also Jane's fantastic, and also she already knows how to roller skate.

[25:17] Kerry Butler: Yeah. I mean, when I did those with her, I just... she's, yeah, she did Starlight Express and she like could skate backwards. And I was... I was a fine roller skater, but um, yeah, she really had this like, you know, she did the Jane thing. It was like the sexy, you know, worldly wise, like really sensual type thing, and it really worked. I was like, oh, this could be... this could really be something. Um, I was excited. I had my quibbles with this and that, but I loved Mary Testa. When I met Jackie Hoffman, the first thing she said was, I'm Jackie, I don't, and I don't have a uterus. Um, but then what I heard was that they said that uh Jane's TV show, the pilot she did, 30 Rock.

[26:06] Cheyenne Jackson: Yes.

[26:06] Kerry Butler: ...went, and so we... they didn't know what was gonna happen, if it was gonna go on. I was like, this show is so about these two characters. I think maybe that's a sign I need to just like kind of let it go. And then it went on. Um, and then as we know what happened, you ended up doing it, and um, yeah, they came back to me like so nervous, like, so Jane's not... I'm sure. Would you come on? I'm like, yes, I'll do it. Yes, yeah, I have no problem with that. I have no problem being rejected and then coming back to me.

[26:44] Cheyenne Jackson: Right. Amen.

[26:46] Kerry Butler: Um, and I remember getting a call at like in the middle of the night from Chris Ashley, who had directed All Shook Up, and he was like, uh, we are in trouble. We're in trouble. And I'm like, oh God, what? And he told me about James's injury and um what I just helped them. Yeah, James broke his leg in three places.

[27:07] Cheyenne Jackson: Right.

[27:07] Kerry Butler: Doing the show. Right. And um, would I uh consider helping them just get the show up and running since it would probably kind of be in my body still? Um, and I said, Well, who's doing it? What's doing it? He's like, Carrie Butler. And I said, Can I come and see? I want to see this because I can't... I love Carrie Butler. I can't imagine anybody but Jane Krakowski doing this. And I remember Chris was like, just wait, just wait. So I remember sitting in the audience and you came out, and you took the huge comedic swings I had ever seen. You were so fearless, so strange and cute and awkward and sexy, and you came at the material from such a different angle, and you didn't skate very well, and all of those things together, everything. I was like, she is so brilliant in this. I have to do everything I can to jump in this and help them move this along.

[28:20] Cheyenne Jackson: I couldn't... like when you think that you that only one person can play a part. It's so short-sighted. And I... that was a lesson I learned at the time. Um, because yeah, it was just incredible what you did and the... the taking the diphthong of the accent and really like chewing on certain phrases, and you know, you really like... it was awesome. So um, yeah, I remember coming in and meeting the cast and just jumping in and then... and you did it, you were like on the roller skates, and you were... you had like one day and you were in front of an audience. It was mind blowing because I... even though you're saying all those nice things about me, like I literally was almost fired during the show because I'm such a bad skater, and I... I couldn't... my brain couldn't process like doing lines and skating at the same time.

Do you know what I mean? Like in my head, I'd be like, okay, you push off with your right foot, you stop with your left foot, and that's all I could think about. And Chris actually kind of confirmed that he did almost fire me in the beginning because I would be doing skating lessons on my lunch break, all this stuff. But then you came in and just like nailed everything in like one day.

[29:35] Cheyenne Jackson: Oh well, even seem nervous.

[29:38] Kerry Butler: Oh my god. Well, that I was so nervous. But I think sometimes when you are, as we know, when you are... you have so much to do, you cannot think about it. You just have to leap. And I am a... I am a preparer beyond. I love preparation, I love rehearsal. I do so much research and I rehearse things until I don't have to think about it anymore. And when I had done the workshops, so much of the material was still the same that when I got there, except for like don't walk away and a couple of new things, it was in my body.

[30:13] Cheyenne Jackson: We'll be back with Breaking Broadway right after this message.

[30:17] Kerry Butler: Speaking about how you prepare so much for roles, I mean, I did notice that about you. And especially, you know, even when you talked about the auditions that you would be going on, the television auditions you would be going on. And I would feel like I'd, you know, really needed to learn a lot from you. Uh because remember that technique, I don't know if you still do that, because I don't know if I still have to do self-tapes for anything.

[30:42] Cheyenne Jackson: Of course I do.

[30:42] Kerry Butler: But tell people about your technique that you would... you do still have to.

[30:46] Cheyenne Jackson: I... of course I do, yes, I do. I mean, occasionally I'll... there'll be... I'll get a random thing like, hey, we got this thing, do you want to do it? But no, I don't... I am... I audition for 99% of the stuff that I do for sure. But um, I think you're talking about me taping myself and reading with myself.

[31:07] Kerry Butler: Yes, okay.

[31:09] Cheyenne Jackson: So yeah, I'm happy to share this. Um, so I think this started because when I was little and I was learning uh harmony in my little bedroom in Idaho, I had two tape players and I would record the melody on one, I would sing the melody into one, and then I would play that and record me singing harmony with myself. And then I would take that and I would put it back in the other tape, and then I would record a third part. So I was like layering vocals working with my own performance. So it's kind of... it's always been in my mind that I can... I can help myself in these processes. And self-taping is... is a weird... it's a weird kind of not organic thing because there's not, you know, it's just... you're not with the casting directors.

And so you're like kind of guessing as to what they want. And so I realized early on, um, and I'm also... I also get really nervous in the room sometimes, even if I'm super prepared. I don't feel like I am as brave as I should be, and I don't take as big of a risk, whether it's dramatic or comedic. So I at the time I was telling you, and I still do this. I record um the other person's part, whoever I'm reading with, I record that. I record their lines, and I... I work it out enough to where I know exactly.

[32:40] Kerry Butler: Yes, but I... I don't... I make it not to where it stands out, to where like, is he doing a weird voice? Or I don't want it to be distracting. If you have a good ear, you'll be... you'd be like, this dude's reading with himself. And if I have to do a scene with a woman, I... I have now... I have girls that I have friends in LA that do the girl part for me. But I like the control, I like being able to edit it myself. And so you can take as long as you need, you can be as nuanced as you want. And it took me... it took my agents a hot second to be like, are you reading with yourself on all these? I'm like, yeah, but it is a technique that kind of works for me. Uh, you have to have patience and you kind of have to have your setup, but uh yeah, I still do it.

[33:28] Kerry Butler: I've tried to do it, and it's really hard because it's really hard.

[33:33] Cheyenne Jackson: I mean, how do you get the other person's lines to match what you're going to say?

[33:39] Kerry Butler: Well, you have to make choices. You have to make strong choices for where you're gonna be within the parameters of those lines, and you have to stay consistent. So it's a... it's kind of a trial and error thing. Um, and sometimes I'll have like little, little, little time clues, like I'll make a sound with a pen or something when it's 10 seconds in, and so I know if I have a monologue, I'm like, I gotta wrap it up. Just little tricks, little, little, little bits. But you asked about TV, and I think this is really uh important, I think, for a lot of theater people. You know, I think the notion that if you're on Broadway and if you're a Broadway performer that it's not gonna translate or that you're too big, it really is... it really is the exact same thing. It just is dialing it down a bit.

[34:40] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, saying everything that you say before, saying everything that you would say on stage, but dialing it down. I... I've... during Xanadu, I started to do TV. Um, during Xanadu, I also got Damn Yankees at the City Center, um, with Jane Krakowski again and Sean Hayes. And then Tina Fey came to Damn Yankees and she wanted to meet me afterwards and said, um, I love your big Midwestern face and your... and your comic timing. Um, I... I have... I have a part on 30 Rock uh for you that I'd like to gauge your interest on. So that's how I got 30 Rock. Tina came and saw Damn Yankees, liked what I did. I added some comedic stuff.

[35:32] Cheyenne Jackson: She had seen me in Xanadu for sure, but I think this was, uh, this was, yeah, what kind of, you know, convinced her. I know you're good friends with her. So yeah, it was, uh, I was so lucky to have my first television experience be with her and Alec Baldwin and these incredible comedians because I learned from the best. I didn't know camera right from left, I didn't know to, to like that. You can't look down at your mark, you have to just know where it is. And, um, yeah, that's when I fell in love with TV, and I love it. I love it. Yeah, I still, I do some TV, but I still feel like I'm not like my authentic self or something because I have to tone it down so much, and I can't be like free, you know, where so much of my comedy is physical.

So I'm still kind of, I mean, I've been doing more, and it's good, but theater isn't for sure, I think where I'm meant to be. I don't know. Do you feel like you're really good at both? I mean, I think you are actually, but I wonder if one is more comfortable for you.

[36:40] Kerry Butler: Oh, thank you. You know, I thought that that would only be Broadway forever for me because I just, the feeling of being on stage where it's a one-shot and you gotta just go, uh, there is nothing like it. But then when I did like 10 years of TV, about, I think I've been on over 20 shows now, um, it really forced me to get good at other parts of it. Uh, you know, really learn my lines and being on Call Me Cat, uh, for three years, multicam, I thought, oh, this is where I'm gonna thrive because it's very theatrical, it's very presentational, but it's very technical. The technical aspect was really difficult. Uh, just because I'm so big, I'm almost six four, and I always seem to be blocking somebody with my back. And, you know, Leslie Jordan was four foot ten.

[37:43] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, but I love, love, love, love TV. But then last July, um, I got a chance to sub in for Gavin again, um, in Into the Woods. Right. And I hadn't done a Broadway show in 10 years. And Kerry, I was so, I was convinced that I couldn't do it anymore because you get so accustomed. Yeah, on TV, you get so accustomed to if you mess up, you just say, uh, can we take that back? I, I, and to be in a Sondheim show and in a beloved revival covering for Gavin, who was just ridonkulously good in both of those parts. I talk about preparation. All I did for three months was run the show, run the show, run the show. Um, and I did it to prove to myself that I could do it, that I could still, I knew physically I could do it, and I knew technically I could sing it, but I wanted to know if emotionally, um, and the nerves I could handle because that, people that don't know what that's like, it is, it is, it can be a, uh, uh, you can freeze up and it is, you have to absolutely leap.

[39:06] Kerry Butler: Nice. You always said to me, like, you don't really get stage fright. You've always just been like, I mean, at least back in the day, you were always such a cool cucumber. Is that still the same for you?

[39:17] Cheyenne Jackson: I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't get stage fright, but do you remember, like, I would start losing my, forgetting my lines sometimes in Xanadu, and then that freaks me out. And then that's when I get, because just, it's like just sometimes like one little thing, like you see somebody move in the audience and you track your eye, and then suddenly you forgot where you are.

[39:33] Kerry Butler: Yes.

[39:34] Cheyenne Jackson: But in your defense, the lines you were saying in Xanadu didn't make any sense at the end. They were all like this, you know, Shakespearean prose that was like, Clayo, and if you messed up, no one would really know. But yes, I definitely, yeah, I know what you mean. But like in, uh, uh, like Beetlejuice and stuff, did you ever, was it always just like go for it?

[40:02] Kerry Butler: No, like sometimes I could, I, yeah, I was never nervous, but just sometimes, especially during a long run, I feel like sometimes you get in your head and you're like, you're gonna forget it today. And like those voices like just telling you, and then you start running the lines in your head, and then you're like, oh my god, I can't remember right now, and I'm going out the second. What is, what is English? What are words? I don't even know. Are we talking right now? Are we here?

[40:21] Cheyenne Jackson: That's the, yeah. It's so terrifying, but it also is, uh, it's so beautiful. I would love to come back. And I, I'm actively looking for something to come back for. I just, it has to be something that, yeah, it has to be something that, you know, my family's here. My kids are starting first grade.

[40:41] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[40:41] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, you know, that's hard. But I would, I would, I would do it for the right thing for sure. Um, and you have a concert coming up.

[40:52] Kerry Butler: I do.

[40:52] Cheyenne Jackson: Yeah, I haven't sung in New York in a long time. So, um, we are, you know, in LA, everything, we are striking at the tail, hopefully the tail end of this writer's strike, and then fingers crossed that the SAG strike will be over by September, October, maybe. I don't know. But, um, so yeah, I'm really leaning into live performances right now. So I'm doing, uh, five nights at the, at 54 Below, which I've never performed at. Um, I have a very special guest on one of the nights, Kerry Butler.

[41:26] Kerry Butler: Oh, I wonder how it is.

[41:28] Cheyenne Jackson: Oh, I can't wait to find out. Oh, and, uh, yeah, so that is September 19th through the 24th, 19, 22. 23rd, 19th through the 23rd. Um, and then you and I, and then we're gonna do a cruise too.

[41:46] Kerry Butler: Yes, March 13th through the 18th, the Broadway cruise.

[41:51] Cheyenne Jackson: Um, so we have to do something. If we're gonna be on the cruise together and we're gonna be in shows, we're gonna do stuff from Xanadu. Someone, someone asked when I asked people, yeah, yeah.

[42:00] Kerry Butler: What do you think?

[42:01] Cheyenne Jackson: We have to do stuff from Xanadu probably.

[42:06] Kerry Butler: Um, yeah, it'd be fun if we, because the people on the cruise are all so major. I think it would be fun to do like, I mean, I'm at a pitch that we do like something from Les Mis where, because I know you've done Les Mis and like Norm Lewis is gonna be in it. Like, I think it'll be, I, or maybe like a big number from Rent or something, like let's be fun. Let's all play roles that we haven't done in a long time or that we've always wanted to.

[42:32] Cheyenne Jackson: Yes.

[42:33] Kerry Butler: Oh, that's, I'm very excited about it.

[42:35] Cheyenne Jackson: I like it, I like it. That's really fun.

[42:36] Kerry Butler: So that's the Broadway cruise.

[42:38] Cheyenne Jackson: That's a Broadway cruise, yes. Like we're going to the Cayman Islands, I believe.

[42:43] Kerry Butler: Yeah. My last, my last question for you is sure. Um, do you have any advice that you would give to your younger self or to any young performers just starting out?

[43:06] Cheyenne Jackson: What I would tell my younger self is that the things right now that make you feel other, the things that make you feel different and weird and unique in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable, those are gonna be your superpowers one day. I was, uh, I was a tall, muscular, sensitive, soft-spoken guy, and with a weird sense of humor. And once I learned how to harness that weird sense of humor and not just make everything about what I look like, but to actually be a weird comedian who looks a certain way, then things started happening for me. So, um, I would say embrace the things that make you, you know, everybody says just be yourself, be yourself. Well, what does that mean? I mean, when you are, when you're an actor starting out and you go into these rooms and you meet these producers and directors, be brave, be bold.

Don't do it like you think they want you to do it. Do it like you do it, like from inside of your guts and just play. I can't remember who used to say it's called a play, it's not called a work, so play and, and yeah, embrace the weird because, you know, I, I, some of my very first early acting jobs are so cringe because I was so afraid to do anything that was weird that I ended up making no choices. And then I was like, I am on Law and Order and I am saying my words and you're just like a shell of a person. Um, make a choice, make a, make a big Kerry Butler, yeah, choice. That's what I'm saying.

[45:19] Kerry Butler: It's so funny, that's the same exact advice that I give to my younger self because I was like so nerdy and I'm like just embrace your nerdiness. Once I, and once I found that, then that's when my career took off, right? And then, yeah, Hairspray.

[45:33] Cheyenne Jackson: There you go.

[45:33] Kerry Butler: And I'm, it's like I, and you all, and you've kind of taken that same, like me with my career, you kind of taken that same little off-kilter, uh, aspect into all of your characters that you played. And, and everybody knows if they hire Kerry Butler, they're not just gonna get a straight-up ingenue who's gonna, you know, they're gonna get a little like, and that is the, that's the fun.

[45:58] Cheyenne Jackson: That's the spark, you know.

[46:01] Kerry Butler: Yeah. Well, thank you so, so much for joining us.

[46:04] Cheyenne Jackson: You're welcome.

[46:05] Kerry Butler: And I can't wait for having me.

[46:09] Cheyenne Jackson: I know. Get your tickets for Cheyenne's concert, and if you want, join us on the Broadway cruise. We'd love to see you. Do you have anything else that you need to plug?

[46:19] Cheyenne Jackson: Oh, I'm gonna be in San Francisco, uh, Feinstein's at the Nico on September 29th and 30th. So right after I'm done with New York, then I go to San Francisco. But yeah, that's it.

[46:30] Kerry Butler: You won't be sorry. I mean, I've seen you, uh, perform a bunch of times like outside of shows, and you're just a phenomenal, like performer in concert and stuff like that.

[46:42] Cheyenne Jackson: Thank you.

[46:42] Kerry Butler: Thank you so much for joining us.

[46:48] Cheyenne Jackson: Thank you so much for listening. If you would like me to come to your school or theater group and give a master class or a talk back, please reach out at kerrybutlercoach.com.

[47:01] Kerry Butler: If you like this podcast and want more episodes, please go to bpn.fm slash breaking broadway and subscribe, like or share. Together you and I'm breaking Broadway.