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[0:04] Kerry Butler: Once I played a penny who just couldn't stop the beat. Yes, with rather skits on her feet. Although it's recently to see. A real quo. Tina. Now come with me, Emma. I am your host, Miss Kerry Butler. Together, you and I are breaking Broadway.

[0:53] Kerry Butler: Hey, welcome back to Breaking Broadway. Today's guest is my friend Sandy Rustin. And I actually saw her perform at New Jersey Reps Theater, and I thought you were fantastic. But she has transitioned from acting into playwriting for the past 15 years. So she has so much stuff going on right now. She has a premiere of Mystic Pizza in LA at La Miranda Theater. The National Tour of Clue launching next month out of the Orpheum Theater in Minnesota. I saw The Cottage, which was hilarious. It was just on Broadway. And now it's available for licensing via Broadway Licensing. And her new play, The Suffrages Murder, premiering at Denver Center for Performing Arts in January 2025. Welcome to the show, Sandy.

[1:47] Sandy Rustin: Thanks, Kerry. I'm so happy to be here.

[1:50] Kerry Butler: Oh my gosh, you have so much going on. Uh God, it's great. It's so exciting. So you just also had your Broadway debut as a writer, right?

[2:00] Sandy Rustin: Yes, I did. Yeah, that was the summer with The Cottage. It was great. And I'm great, great friends with so many people in that cast, including your two leads. And really, really hilarious.

[2:11] Kerry Butler: Thank you. I'm so glad you got to see it.

[2:14] Sandy Rustin: Yeah.

[2:15] Kerry Butler: That cast was stellar.

[2:17] Sandy Rustin: Yeah.

[2:17] Kerry Butler: So tell me about your sort of journey. Like, um, first of all, you're a fantastic actress. Like I saw you in my friend James Heinman's show, and I just thought, like, you have it, you're fantastic.

[2:31] Sandy Rustin: Thanks, Kerry. No, really. You made like really great choices. And so, did you grow up wanting to be an actress? Did you even think about being a writer at that point?

[2:40] Sandy Rustin: Yes. So I grew up in Chicago. Um, and I always, since I was a really little kid, had a double interest in performing and writing.

[2:47] Kerry Butler: Really?

[2:49] Sandy Rustin: Yeah, there's um my mom has this little book that I made her for Mother's Day in the sixth grade where you had to like write your bio on the inside cover. Um, and I was 11 years old, and inside it said Sandy wants to grow up to be an actress and a playwright.

[3:02] Kerry Butler: Oh gosh!

[3:03] Sandy Rustin: Yeah, it's always what I've wanted to do. Um, and so I grew up sort of in an improv comedy, sketch comedy world in Chicago. It was so easily accessible, and um I ended up at Northwestern University, which also had great, you know, comedy training, but also an incredible theater department where I was able to focus in performance and writing.

[3:26] Sandy Rustin: I studied a bit in London, my junior year in college. Again, I had a double focus there in performance and too. I went to London my junior year.

[3:34] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[3:35] Sandy Rustin: It was the best. Um yeah, and then I moved to New York right after I graduated from school, and I was working pretty subtly as an actor, and it really wasn't until I became a mom in 2005 that I was suddenly discovered I didn't really want to be doing eight shows a week while my husband was also working full time. It just wasn't the I I couldn't figure out the schedule while also being a parent. Um and so I just kind of organically shifted towards writing at that time, and then gradually that sort of became my focus, and I started to have things produced. And you know, I still have been performing over the last two decades, um but with less regularity. Um I and you know, in a few years I'll be an empty nester, and then I might be able to get back to it again. But yeah, so I I've kept my focus in both courts, but um been primarily a playwright.

[4:32] Kerry Butler: How did you first get produced? How did you break into it? Because it's not easy to break into New York playwright.

[4:39] Sandy Rustin: So let's see. So when my oldest son Isaac was a baby, I started to get itchy to be creative, and I went to take some sketchwriting and comedy and improv classes at Upright Citizens Brigade just for fun, like just to like a break from nursing. And um I had this great teacher there, Zach Woods, who has since gone on to become a famous actor. But at the time he was my sketchwriting teacher, and everything I was writing was about being a new young parent. And he was really encouraging. He was like, Sandy, nobody is writing this kind of stuff and keep going. And anyway, so I did, and before I knew it, I had the makings of a show, which I shared with some friends of mine, uh, Dan Lipton and David Rossmer, and they were like, We think this could be a musical. So we ended up together creating this show called Rated P for Parenthood, which was a sketch comedy musical, kind of like I Love You're Perfect Now Change.

[5:27] Kerry Butler: Right.

[5:27] Sandy Rustin: But what I Love You're Perfect Now Change was for dating and marriage, Rated P for Parenthood was for parenting. And so at the same time I had been running a theater company out in New Jersey where we live, Kerry, called Midtown Direct Rep. And we I we raised a bunch of money and we put up Rated P as a show in our community at the South Orange Performing Arts Center for a weekend. And I invited everybody I knew, because why not? And by the end of that weekend, um some commercial producers had optioned it. And then nine months later it opened at the West Side Theater off Broadway. And then it went on to get optioned by ABC Television. Um because Kelly Ripa and Mark Consuelos' company, Melojo came, they came to see it, Kelly and Mark, just as parents. And they loved it, and they optioned it. And then they sold it to ABC. So it that was my first experience writing a show professionally.

[6:22] Kerry Butler: Unbelievable.

[6:23] Sandy Rustin: Yeah, which was wild. Um and it just opened all sorts of doors and it showed me like, oh, I see. If you just create this opportunity for yourself and you go for it and you write what makes you happy, um, cool things can happen. And so that was the start of my professional playwriting career. And that was in 2012.

[6:43] Kerry Butler: And so you didn't even have that much training then as a professional writer, right? Like you're taking classes in Northwestern on writing?

[6:50] Sandy Rustin: Yeah, yeah. I took playwriting classes in Northwestern, I took playwriting classes in London. I had taken like um extracurricular playwriting classes as a kid. Um, and then I had been writing even when I was performing for that sort of decade that I was in New York City as a young actor. Um, I was always writing at the same time. So I had training, but not necessarily experience until I wrote Rated P professionally.

[7:16] Kerry Butler: That's really incredible.

[7:18] Sandy Rustin: Thanks.

[7:19] Kerry Butler: Your first show.

[7:21] Sandy Rustin: It was wild.

[7:23] Kerry Butler: Did you have um a lot of rejection after that, or has it just been smooth sailing ever since smooth sailing, no problems ever.

[7:32] Sandy Rustin: No, yeah. I mean, this business is 95% rejection, maybe higher. I don't know what the percentage is. But yeah, you have to have really thick skin. Um, and especially as a playwright, I mean I always felt vulnerable as an actor as well. I think you have to put yourself out there as an actor, but something about playwriting, you are putting your ideas out there more than your physical self. And um in doing that, it for me anyway, it has felt infinitely more vulnerable than when I am on stage as a performer.

[8:03] Kerry Butler: Yeah, because people are judging your your thoughts, your ideas, what you think is funny or what you think should make a person cry.

[8:11] Sandy Rustin: Um, so it it feels more vulnerable.

[8:13] Kerry Butler: Yeah. Wow. Um, were there times have there been times where you you thought um you were gonna even give up writing?

[8:24] Sandy Rustin: Definitely. Sure. I mean, first of all, I've been raising kids for the last 18 years. My oldest son is 18. Um, and sometimes you just need a job, you know, like sometimes you just need to be. So I've had a thousand day jobs. I've been a makeup artist, I've been a mortgage broker, I've been I've taught, I've taught acting, I've taught playwriting, I've taught improv comedy. Um, you know, I've just had a thousand jobs over the years when you you, you know, mama needs a job kind of a thing. And I and I actually have also kept my foot in the door uh in my performance world as in voiceover. So I do a lot of voiceover work. So there have been many times over the years when I've thought, you know what, just do this, just go down.

But for whatever reason, every time my heart brings me back to wanting to be a person that's in the rehearsal room and creating theater and making memorable nights in the theater for audiences. Like that's always been where I'm what I'm drawn back to. So I just keep finding myself back in this pool.

[9:27] Kerry Butler: How does it feel when you're in the rehearsal room now? Is part of you like, oh, I wish I was performing my own show, or are you like okay with letting it go?

[9:36] Sandy Rustin: Yeah, I mean, certainly every show I've ever written has a part for me in it. Because of course, or like all parts are for me, right? Like I get like my brain, um, I'm writing shows that I would love to be in, just because that's the nature of creating theater, I think, when you're an actor. Um, but that said, I have never had a moment in a rehearsal room where I've wished it was me instead. I'm always so grateful for the actors who have said yes and are willing to perform in my place that it's like such a treat to watch other people bring their imagination to the table. Um I maybe one day I'll I'll be in one of my shows, but for now, um, it I'm happy to be in the seat as the writer in the rehearsal space and let other people do the magic on the stage.

[10:24] Kerry Butler: So now that you are behind the table, yes. What things have you noticed, even about auditioning, people coming in, you know, because that you didn't know when you were a performer, and you're like, oh my gosh, I wish I knew that.

[10:38] Sandy Rustin: Yes, so many things. I think really yeah, I think the biggest thing that I have learned behind the table is that um so much of auditioning has absolutely nothing to do with the actor. It has to do with what has already been imagined and envisioned before that person has ever walked through the door. It is very, very rare that an actor walks in who is um totally on a different page than what the creative team has imagined for a role, and that person ends up getting the job. I have never really seen that happen. There is a collective understanding of the creative team of what each character, the essence, not necessarily what they need to look like, but the essence, the energy of what that character brings to the table.

And if an actor walks into the room, even if they're the most brilliant actor you've ever seen, if they don't embody the essence of who that character is for that creative team, that job is not gonna go to them. And God, as an actor myself, I spent so much time being like, you know, what can I do to to prove to them that I'm a good enough actor? And it's so much of the time, it's just not about whether or not you're talented as an actor. It's about are you bringing the energy of the character that the creative team is requiring in that moment? Are you bringing that into the audition space? And that's something you can't control, which is so freeing as an actor. Because if that's the case, then just walk into every single audition authentically yourself, prepared, do your best job with the character, do your best job with the role.

And if you are the right essence of that character, the job is yours. And if not, it's meant for somebody else, and yours is coming. So that was a huge lesson that I've learned on the acting side of things by sitting behind the table as the writer.

[12:29] Kerry Butler: Um, what else have you seen with people coming in? And you're like, oh no, don't do that.

[12:35] Sandy Rustin: Oh gosh. Um are there any no notes, don't do that? I mean, I guess what I prefer what I like the most is when people come in easy, confident, relaxed, prepared. Um, they don't have a you know, they're not chit-chatting with you about something unrelated to the play. Maybe it's like a quick hello, you know, some niceties, and then we move into the work. I I really do believe that the audition room is a space for work. It's a space where we're working on trying to cast our play, and it's a space where actors are working trying to show you the material they've prepared. Um, and that's the environment we like to cultivate in an audition space. And I think when actors walk into that space ready to work in that way, um, those are the most successful kinds of auditions, I think.

[13:26] Kerry Butler: Do you know any places for young actors um to make to network and make connections and maybe, you know, do stuff for free just because it's a good stepping stone for them?

[13:38] Sandy Rustin: Well, I would say for me that I found solace and experience in creating those kinds of opportunities for myself with my friends. Of course, there's there's all sorts of places that you can go, and you know, you can always be looking in backstage and playbill and all those different places to see different opportunities. But really, for us, like my group of friends when we graduated from college, the group of friends that that moved to New York City, we did our own thing. We we pooled some money, we rented a space, we put together shows, and we would invite casting directors. We we were very on our own. I think that the best place to network is if you're moving to New York City, is before you move to New York.

[14:24] Sandy Rustin: You know, create a space during your educational years where you're really meeting wonderful people and use those experiences and those people that you're meeting when you move to New York, you've got a group already. You can read plays together in somebody's living room. You could rent a space and put on a showcase or do a night of monologues and invite people you know, create opportunity for yourself. I think that was the most successful path for me and my group of friends when we first moved to New York.

[14:53] Kerry Butler: That's amazing. Do you still talk to that group of friends?

[14:57] Sandy Rustin: Yes.

[14:57] Kerry Butler: You do. And have you ever cast any of them in any of your shows?

[15:02] Sandy Rustin: Oh God, I cast my friends in my stuff all the time.

[15:05] Kerry Butler: Oh yeah.

[15:06] Sandy Rustin: Yeah, it's such a pleasure. And now, especially, um, these aren't my college friends necessarily. I suppose some still are, but um I live in Maplewood, New Jersey. Um, and as you well know, it's a community of a lot of theater people. Um, and so whenever I'm working on a new play, like I've got, you know, my friends who are Broadway actors in my living room reading my first draft, and it's such a huge step forward for me because if it's not if my words aren't gonna work in the mouths of my friends who are so super talented, then I know there's something wrong with the writing. And I it's so easy for me to see where the problems are and what I need to go back and resolve because I'm starting with these actors that are like unbelievably inventive and creative and talented. So that's been a huge benefit to working with friends always.

[15:57] Kerry Butler: That's so awesome. I know I remember Adam De Anheuser.

[16:01] Sandy Rustin: Yeah.

[16:02] Kerry Butler: Oh, is always in all your shows, and he's like, Yes, my friend Sandy's going to Broadway.

[16:07] Sandy Rustin: And Adam, Adam has also directed my work too.

[16:10] Kerry Butler: Oh.

[16:11] Sandy Rustin: Yes.

[16:12] Kerry Butler: That's awesome. What's been, what do you feel like has been the most challenging part of writing and being behind the table?

[16:21] Sandy Rustin: Uh what's the most challenging part? I guess the most challenging part is, you know, when you when you have a play, you as the playwright, you've imagined the whole thing. Top to bottom. You know how it's supposed to look, you know how it's supposed to move, you know where everybody's supposed to stand. Like I, and I don't know if every playwright's this way, but for me, I have the whole play visually in my brain. And so as you add on the rest of your creative team, the director, the actors, the designers, you have to make space for all of their imaginations. And you know, essentially the play itself, the script itself, and you and the playwright's imagination is layer one. And everything else gets layered on top of it.

Um, and so learning how to graciously make space for all those other layers, I think is the biggest challenge for most playwrights. Um, but it's also the biggest joy when it's an effective, um, respectful collaboration with all those other people, that's when the real magic happens.

[17:28] Kerry Butler: Umizza is a musical, right?

[17:32] Sandy Rustin: Yeah.

[17:32] Kerry Butler: It's a jukebox musical.

[17:34] Sandy Rustin: It's all hits from the 80s and 90s.

[17:36] Kerry Butler: Oh, okay. Yes. Um, so I have a very technical question that I've been asking people lately.

[17:42] Sandy Rustin: Sure.

[17:43] Kerry Butler: Um, what do you feel like uh are the best audition songs? Or are you when you they come in you're like, oh don't sing that. Are there any songs like that?

[17:54] Sandy Rustin: Um It's such a personal thing, but it's interesting to hear different people have different takes on it because then it also like is for the actor, it's like, oh, okay, well, some people are gonna like this, some people aren't gonna like this. So what am I gonna do? I just have to do trust my own gut.

[18:09] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[18:09] Sandy Rustin: I think that the um most successful singing auditions are when the person feels great about it. I don't really care what the song is. It's sometimes I've seen like people come in and it's almost as if somebody's told them to sing something, or somebody said like this song will be original or whatever, but the person's not quite comfortable in it. Oh I feel like if that if that actor feels like a million bucks singing that song, that's what I'm interested in. I I want to hear you at your best. I want to hear you singing the way that you like to sing that makes you feel great. Um I have seen auditions where an actor comes in and sings something that might not be particularly appropriate for the show, but is makes them feel like a million bucks.

And we're like, we're that's that is the thing that interests us. Being able to see you at your most authentic self. In fact, the actor who is playing Bill in Mystic Pizza right now is this great actor named I'll give him a shout out, Jordan Friend. Um he came in to audition for Mystic Pizza. He came in, brought his own guitar, sang a song with his acoustic guitar. Wasn't not in the style of Mystic Pizza. It was some like contemporary a folk song, and we were like near tears by the end, and we fell in love with him his essence and then we were like okay now can you sing like 80s rock hits but the but first we got to see him what makes him feel alive as a singer and that was really exciting.

[19:42] Kerry Butler: That's really good to know so even if people don't sing in the style of the show like you'll give them the chance then to show what they could do because you'll want to see more.

[19:53] Sandy Rustin: I mean it's the same thing that we we were talking about before it I I'm interested in seeing the essence of the actor and if that is through song or if that is through a scene work whatever that is I want to know like what's at your core and is that does that core match the core of this character.

[20:14] Kerry Butler: How did you feel um about auditioning when you were starting out?

[20:14] Sandy Rustin: Well when I was starting out I loved it I thought it was so exciting every room I walked into I was like you know ready ready to change my life and but gradually over the years um that feeling sort of changes it gets exhausting you have to have such a thick skin um yeah so you know it certainly evolved I I will say with honesty that I do not miss auditioning.

[20:45] Kerry Butler: Yeah. Do you have any good rejection stories?

[20:49] Sandy Rustin: Oh god I have about a million I think my favorite one is probably my first one so when I was a student at Northwestern I came to New York to do like the senior showcase auditions. And from that I got an agent. And then I think one of my very first auditions was before I'd even graduated. So I was back in Chicago, still in school, and I got invited to come audition for the National Tour of Sunset Boulevard to play Betty, I think.

[21:19] Kerry Butler: And did you play that part, Carrie?

[21:21] Sandy Rustin: No.

[21:22] Kerry Butler: Okay.

[21:23] Sandy Rustin: And so I came to New York. I flew out to New York. My mom bought me this like very pretty blue suit from BCBG. I still remember it. It was like so cool. And I had matching blue shoes and like a white camisole. I still remember it. And I I went into the audition room. It was in at Chelsea Studios, and it was Jay Bender sitting behind the the table, and I did my audition and I was so proud of myself. And he said to me, You're great. You're green, but you're great. And I was like, thanks. And he was like, all right, thanks. And I left. And I called my mom from a payphone and said, she's like, how was it? I said, I I think it was good. He said I was green. What does that mean? And she said, it means he thinks you're wonderful.

And it wasn't until years later that I learned what being green meant. But first of all, it makes me love my mom so much that she's so cute wouldn't tell me that it meant that I was like, you're caught off the bus. Yeah. Um, you know, Jay Bender went on to cast me in other things and was, you know, awesome. Yes, but um, I did not get that job. But I took it as a as a nice rejection because he was kind of gentle with me.

[22:43] Kerry Butler: So yeah. Um, do you miss performing now?

[22:48] Sandy Rustin: I do, yeah. I think about it a lot, and I'm I'm I look forward to the next chapter of my life when I'm not I mean, I'm also dreading be becoming an empty nester because I love being a mom. But there is something exciting about entering into a new chapter where performance might become part of the equation again for me. So yeah, I love performing.

[23:11] Kerry Butler: Have the same agents, like still, even though you're you switched more to writing?

[23:16] Sandy Rustin: I don't. No. I am uh I actually don't really have a performing agent at the moment because I've been so focused on writing. If I wanted to um, if I was looking to to do something performance-wise, I think I I could access an agent through my through my literary office, and that would be fine. But um, yeah, at the moment I'm just I've just been really hyper focused on playwriting.

[23:45] Kerry Butler: Do you have any advice for people who might be listening and they're they just think of themselves as an actor, but they are thinking, you know, I have stories to tell, but I don't know how to do it?

[23:59] Sandy Rustin: Yeah, I mean, I think the best advice I ever got as a budding playwright was to read every play I could. Um I had a playwrighting teacher in college who told me if you're not currently reading somebody else's play, then you can't call yourself a playwright. And I have taken that to heart my entire life. So I'm always reading somebody else's play. And I think having a play in your back pocket that you're reading, it helps you learn what you like and what you don't like. And it helps you, especially for actors, actors tend to be excellent mimics. And so if you're reading a script, in understanding the structure or the style or how a playwright uses dialogue or vocabulary or language in a certain way, might inform how you yourself might do that.

Should you decide to put pen to paper. Um so the more you read, the more you become familiar with how the structure of a play works. And the more you're reading a play to understand it as a writer and not reading it in the myopic way that we read it when we're reading it for a character. Because when we when we read a play, when you're looking at it for the a role, you're looking for where that character is, what that character wants. You're just totally reading it for that one character. Whereas the playwright, you zoom out, you're looking at it on a much more macro level. Um, so starting to read plays with the brain of a playwright helps. And the more you read, the more you might discover what story you want to tell and how you want to tell it, what you like, and you know what you might want to avoid. So that that's my best advice. That was the best advice given to me. So I'm happy to pass it along.

[25:36] Kerry Butler: Have you noticed um anything changed with your career now that you've been on Broadway?

[25:43] Sandy Rustin: Um, I definitely, yeah, there's definitely more doors opening, more meetings to take, more um, more people willing to read plays that I've had in drawers for years, you know. Oh, yeah. Um, yeah, I think it it's sort of valid, it puts a stamp of validation on your career as a playwright, and it um sends a message to other people. Um, hey, maybe maybe you might be interested in reading my next play or reading this other play that I have waiting for production. So I mean, that has been the biggest shift is that I feel like it is become less of a challenge to get um people to be interested in reading something that I've written, which is such a nice feeling.

[26:26] Kerry Butler: So that's yeah, yeah. My last question for you is what advice would you give to your younger self?

[26:37] Sandy Rustin: Uh I think I would tell my younger self to uh to start yoga and meditation 20 years ago. I like I found yoga and meditation uh in my 40s, and I wish I had found it in my 20s because it is such um that that piece of taking care of yourself of finding a real grounding and a real sort of coming home to yourself is been such a valuable part of my professional life, my home life, like literally every every component of my life. And I wish I had found it sooner because I think I could have saved myself a lot of angst, and I think I could have found a more grounding system in my body to move through those sort of insecure years where you're not sure if this is a career for you or not. Are you gonna find a spot? Is there a space for you? Is there room for your voice? All of those questions. Um, I wish I'd had something in my life that had grounded me in the way that I have found yoga and meditation do for me now.

[27:45] Kerry Butler: Amazing. Well, I'm so so happy for all of your success.

[27:50] Sandy Rustin: Thank you.

[27:51] Kerry Butler: It's so exciting. Um, and thank you so so much for coming on and and sharing all your insight with us here at Breaking Broadway.

[27:58] Sandy Rustin: You're so nice to have me. I'm so happy to talk with you. Thank you.

[28:04] Kerry Butler: Thank you so much for listening. If you would like me to come to your school or theater group and give a masterclass or a talk back, please reach out at kerrybutlercoach.com. If you like this podcast, subscribe and leave a rating. And in the comments, let me know what topics you want me to cover. You're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Together, you and I are bringing Broadway.