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[0:00] Hal Luftig: When they go to the theater for the first time, you see them on stage. And it's a very curious moment because while they're in the costume show, while you're looking at them, and while you're buying them and putting them together, whatever, however you're doing it, they're sort of yours as the designer. And then you go to the theater, to the movie set, to wherever you go. Go on the actors, and suddenly they're not yours anymore. They're there.

[0:39] Hal Luftig: Hi everyone. This is Hal Luftig with my Broadway Podcast Network show, Broadway Biz, where every episode I will chat with my friends, some of the top theater professionals in the business about the business of Broadway. You'll be a Broadway wiz. You'll learn to raise cash to open your smash. You'll be all the rage from the patron stage. In no time, you'll know the business of show, the greatest drawbirds. So join our squad as we upload our Broadway. Let's get busy with the Broadway Biz.

[1:32] Hal Luftig: My guest today is the incredible costume designer Jane Greenwood, who has crafted the costumes for over 100 productions. I am so proud to have Jane on our team for the revival of Neil Simon's Plaza Suite, starring Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick. Jane has contributed so much to theater over the course of her incredible career. I am honored, truly honored. She's here with me on this episode of Broadway Biz. Good morning, Jane. Thank you so much for joining our show this morning. Before I ask any question, I just want to know how you are, how your family is. Everybody okay? Healthy? Safe?

[2:14] Jane Greenwood: It's been a long haul. It's when we were told to come home on March the 13th. Yeah, I didn't think I would be here this long, but it's been okay.

[2:33] Hal Luftig: Yeah, good, good. I don't think anybody thought it'd be this long. And we're gonna get to Plaza Suite a little bit later in our conversation, but for our listeners, we were that night that theater Broadway shut, we were doing our final dress, and the next night we were going to begin previews. So at four o'clock, while the cast was rehearsing, they were told everybody go home and we'll get back to you. So yeah, what a shame, right, Jane?

[3:07] Jane Greenwood: It was stunning.

[3:10] Hal Luftig: Yes, yes. The first question I want to ask, and I hope we attract listeners from all different parts of life, but I'm not sure that everyone knows what a costume designer actually does. So could you explain what is the role of a costume designer in a play or a film?

[3:35] Jane Greenwood: Yes, I mean it's a very wide range of the work. First of all, you are going to dress whatever the part of the people are in the play in an attempt to give them the characters that they are, which may be very different to what they like in real life. First of all, it's important to read the script and talk to the director about the style that the director wants to go in for the clothes, whether it's modern or period, and when you have a conversation with the director and maybe the set designer to know what the setting is going to be, where these people are going to be, then you can go and research what that channel is of life and where you're going to look. And then you have to think about each character.

You have to read the play or listen to the opera, you have to do whatever it is, watch the dance. You have to really know what the characters are about. And then you can look at the research, have your thoughts about the character. If you have a live author, maybe you talk to the writer about what they feel about the characters, their characters, and then you'll sort of look at research, look at your imagination, think about the people, and maybe put some rough sketches down. If it's a commercial venture, you usually have to go to one of the big costume shops, maybe you have to go to several and get a budget. I think a lot of designers at that point tend to go and encourage going to a shop or that they have worked in and that they have a rapport with.

After all of that has happened, you usually have a meeting with the actors and explain to them what the clothes are about, where you're coming from, what you feel about their characters. And I always feel it's very nice to have a one-on-one conversation with an actor to talk about why you have designed it in a certain way, and in a way that has some of their input, because I find the first time you sit down and talk with an actor is very often the first sort of inkling of what they have had about the character, which can be very truthful and actually very helpful down the line. So I always remember those early conversations, and it's a very important kind of time when you're with the actor in the fitting room with the design with the designer, the person who is making it, and maybe even one of your assistants who might have shoes to try on, maybe have wigs which have to come into play, maybe need to have the wig to see the proportion when they have the wig and the hat on. So you get the whole look of the character.

[8:02] Jane Greenwood: And it's a very curious moment because while they're in the costume shop, while you're looking at them, and while you're buying them and putting them together, whatever, however you're doing it, they're sort of yours as the designer. And then you go to the theater to the movie set to wherever you go. Go on the actors, and suddenly they're not yours anymore, they're there. I know that really well when you have to give it up.

[8:36] Hal Luftig: Jane, what a fascinating and beautifully articulated explanation of what a designer does. I have to say, I've learned something about, and I've worked with lots of costume designers, so thank you for that. I was curious because you said something earlier in your explanation about being inspired by the period or the director's vision. You've done three productions of The Little Foxes. How did you approach that and each one? I mean, it's the same time period, the location is the same for each production. How did you find the inspiration to make each one of those productions almost self-explanatory?

[8:53] Jane Greenwood: Well, I suppose I did them various times in my career, and I was sort of looking at the period. I think as I've gone, as I've changed somewhat, as you can't help but change, I think that I look at the play differently. I look at the actors differently. The setting is different, so the proportions may change. The characters, the actors are not the same. It was very interesting the last production I did with Laura Linney and Cynthia Nixon. They changed characters each night, so I had to think of the costumes for both of them. It was very interesting because they're very different proportions in a way the design seemed to work for both of them, and it was very revealing actually how they were the right clothes for those characters.

They put them on, and I grew and I learned more about myself as a designer. I think that happens all the time, you know, as you look at things, you see it one way and then you have to look at it again, you see a little bit more, and that's what happens.

[11:00] Hal Luftig: Wow. Were you a little daunted by the fact when they notified or told you that they're gonna be switching roles every other night? It was a brilliant production, by the way, with both of them in it. The costumes were stunning. But were you a little bit—how did you feel when you heard that news?

[11:19] Jane Greenwood: It was, well, let me tell you, I said, well, we can't do that because the budget's just gonna go through the roof. And then we had to sort of be practical and think about how we could make that work. And it's a period where the skirts and the bodices are very often separate. We were able to use the skirts of one or two of them, so that saved a lot of money, which was helpful.

[12:02] Hal Luftig: Yeah, that is very—yeah.

[12:05] Hal Luftig: As a producer, I love that.

[12:08] Jane Greenwood: But it was also rather daunting to sort of sit with them both. And I remember Dan Sullivan said we should have a meeting with the two girls, and we did. We had both—they came and sat in my living room here. And we talked about the characters, all of us together, and what they both felt. I had the costume sketches that I had worked on and showed them and showed them the difference in sort of character of the clothes as the play went on. And they were very happy.

[13:19] Hal Luftig: Part of the reason for this podcast is to explain to our listeners how the financial aspect of Broadway marries its artistic aspect of Broadway. And you had mentioned meeting with producers and having to see the budget, you know, seeing the budget and saying we need more, or we're right on budget. Was there ever an experience in your career where the producer said no, that the budget was way over, and here's what our budget is?

[13:49] Jane Greenwood: That you actually had to go back and sort of change the aesthetic of what you were planning. I'm not sure that I changed the aesthetic, but I remember when we did The Scarlet Pimpernel, the first go around. Peter Hall was the director at the beginning, and he had a sort of almost like a film vision of it for this, you know, he wanted many people, much. And it was mind boggling actually, how many clothes were required. And I remember I did have to keep on going back and going to the costume shop and cut things, cut certain aspects of it all. And it was difficult. And I had, it was very large, and I had all the time I kept on getting calls saying, "Oh, can't you cut this or can't you do this in a different way?"

And what have you, it was very, very problematic. But we didn't sort of get it together. But what was sort of interesting is that after a year, not quite a year, but that whole musical was redone, and we redid a lot of it again. I didn't see the revised version of it, but I wish I had now because I would be so interested to see what you created for the whole different production. Well, it was very different because it suddenly became much more tongue-in-cheek and more amusing, and we had all the gentlemen dressed in sort of animal prints and way over the top clothes, which we hadn't had before. They were much more realistic, as I said, much more in the sort of film model mode, rather than giving it a kind of real sense of humor for the, and it sort of lifted it all into being much more welcoming to the audience.

[16:21] Hal Luftig: I could see that having seen the original, I can see how that version would work for an audience that it was just not so serious, but like this is a tongue-in-cheek thing. I can see how that would work. I just want to say you asked about cost, and you know, talking about it, I often feel that there isn't really an understanding of how many people are involved in say one period costume. I take something like the first act dress in Little Foxes. You know, you have to have embroiderers, you have to have stitches, the fabrics sometimes have to be dyed, or sometimes the fabric is painted, you have to have painters involved, sometimes you have to have the shoes made. The hats all have to be made, we have to have milliners.

All those people, all these artists, and they're all artists, have to be able to put all of this together, and it's becoming very difficult in New York because rents are very high, and for all these artists to stay here and be able to produce these clothes for Broadway shows is increasingly difficult and increasingly expensive, which people say, "Why? Why does it have to be?" Well, it's all of those people that are involved that are having to make a living and having their rents put up, all the little shops that used to sell feathers and fans and ribbons and things, they all had to move out of the city because of the rent increases, and it's a serious problem. I mean, I say it's a serious problem. It is why everything has become so much more expensive.

[18:42] Hal Luftig: Well that is a wonderful explanation because I know that question about expense not only is on the producer's management mind, but it's also on the audience's mind. Like, you know, I hear this a million times a day. Why are theater tickets so expensive? And you know, what you just said is part of that reason that everything that we create now has become just more expensive, and you gave a great reason why. The requirements and the expectation, and you know, these big musicals, they've got so much there up on stage. And where how is it all got there? And who provided it, and who maintains it? And that's unbelievably expensive too.

[19:36] Jane Greenwood: Yes, yes. You know, I have a funny little aside to tell you. Where I live in New York City, it is the former home of the Brooks Van Horn costume shop. Yes, yeah, yeah. And in fact, that's on 17th Street. Yes, yes, yes, I'll give away my address. And it was very convenient because I could walk there in the 90s. Yeah, but that was a great case in point. As that neighborhood became, you know, more gentrified, these costume shops, these warehouses could not stay where they were, and they had to move out to Queens, which was harder for people like you to get to.

[20:28] Hal Luftig: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's fun. You probably have been in my apartment before it was my apartment. It was the millinery department.

[20:40] Jane Greenwood: Right. It would be so much fun now to have you over and remember what that building looked like in your memory and tell me what apartment my apartment was. But exactly what you're saying is what happened. You see, Brooks had everything there. They had a milliner, they had the tailors, they had the dyers and the embroiderers, and it was all under that one big roof. And even they used to do the circus, the elephant blankets used to come back and were all put down in the basement because they smelled so bad. But you know, everything was there. Now everything has had to be dispersed, and there are very few costume shops that can have all of those things under one roof, especially in a convenient location for folks like you, the designers or the actors. And because, you know, when the actors are rehearsing, the directors don't want their actors going for a long time.

[21:50] Hal Luftig: Makes sense. I want to just jump to Plaza Suite for a second because I have a question specifically about that. I should just disclose to anyone listening that I'm a little biased about Jane's costumes because I'm one of the producers of the production. But for those of you who don't know the play Plaza Suite, it is three one-act plays. It all takes place in the same hotel room at the Plaza Suite, but they're different periods of time. The actors, you know, are playing completely different roles. So I wanted to ask you, Jane, when you started the creation of this, working on Plaza Suite, and you realized that it was the same actor, so the same physicality, but they needed to evoke a different time period, a different sense of who that character was.

What was the process? How did you come up with these gorgeous? And let me just say again, I'm biased, but they are some of the most gorgeous costumes I have ever seen. I mean, funny when they need to be, thinking about the second act, serious when they need to be, and you know, actually poignant in the third act, you know. So how, what was that process for you? Because that has to be different than creating for a single show.

[23:17] Jane Greenwood: First of all, Neil Simon has always written, it seems to me in his plays. It's the same with California Suite. He gives you wonderful descriptions of the characters, and in certain instances, he actually describes what he thinks they should be in. You might as well read what he says and do it. Well, it's a bit like that with Neil Simon, because Neil knew what that character was. He knew those people, and he wanted you to bring those people to life visually with the clothes, and so he gives you direction on it, and I took that. And also I decided to leave it in the period because the period makes so much more sense of the play if you stay in the late 60s, and I think everybody felt that wanted to keep that.

And there was one thing that I did a little bit differently than the original, which was when the bride finally comes in, and I chose to, because the period was showing so many young girls in very, very short dresses, and I thought, well, you know, we don't have many people to really sort of hit home about what the period was all about, so I just went ahead and gave the bride a dress that would have a very, very short skirt. And everybody loved it, and I think it's just choosing the right thing for the character.

[24:11] Hal Luftig: Well, I remember that moment when we were in Boston and we got to the point in rehearsals where the actors were wearing the costumes you created. And when we got to that place where the bride, who the whole act we're talking about, comes out, that dress was so stunning. The people in the theater were just aghast. You talked a little earlier about having to let it go; it's not yours anymore. What was that moment like? Was that one of those moments where, as you said earlier, you have to just give it away and it's not yours anymore?

[24:11] Jane Greenwood: Well, yeah, I just wonder. I was very happy to share the because it's sort of also humorous in a way because we've had such a buildup for the bride coming out of the bathroom all through the scene. So I was delighted to be able to see it work and let everybody go, "Oh, oh my gosh!" Did they? In my career, I don't think I've ever seen a group of people just like be stunned in that way. I can't describe it in any other way; it was electric. I just didn't know what to say. It was, you know, everybody always loves to see the bride, and it was very interesting to design and think about the mother of the bride, which was very, very, Sarah Jessica has a lot to do in that way. And I did find a picture of a wonderful deal outfit from the period with that sort of wonderful coloring, and I found a piece of fabric I thought is here actually, that was sort of has all the colors in it. You could sort of see them all. You see that?

[24:11] Hal Luftig: Yes, yes, yes. And that's exactly what her address looked like, that kind of color which was that perhaps. Oh, I've never seen those before, Jane. They're amazing. They're amazing. They could, you know, I've just seen, I know our audience can't see what I'm looking at, but Jane just held up the sketch for what was to be the mother of the bride, and she also held up a color fabric that was very reminiscent of the 60s, and it's amazing to me how both were incorporated into what became the final dress of the mother of the bride played by Sarah Jessica Parker.

[28:13] Jane Greenwood: That is amazing, Jade. That is great. You know, I just I need to, you know, because Sarah is so tied, you know, in terms of her reputation to clothing, was that daunting at all to you? I'm sure she had a lot to say, and you two must have had really interesting discussions.

[28:36] Jane Greenwood: Well, we did have interesting discussions, and it was very, very terrific because we seemed to be on key with all of the choices, and again, you know, we kept sort of going back to what was required in the script. When the curtain goes up on a play, the audience sees two things immediately: the set and the costumes. Is there do you what do you want the audience to infer from that first moment when they see a costume?

[29:13] Jane Greenwood: It's great if they sort of understand who those people are. I mean, that's and I want them to be interested in them. It's no surprise to me, Jane, that you're so wonderfully articulate about, you know, what you do and how you do it, because I already know that you've taught costume design at Yale for 40 years. Doing that, what is the most important lesson or ethos about design that you try to instill in your students?

[29:51] Jane Greenwood: Well, I always tell them to look and to look really hard, not just to sort of casually look at a man's coat, but look at where the collar is, how wide it is, how many buttons there are down the front. Does it have a pocket? Does it have two pockets? Does it have three pockets? What is the how is the sleeve set into the coat? Is it a raglan sleeve or is it a traditional tailored sleeve? Does it have a cuff? How long is it? What is the fabric? Is it old or new? What is it? What is it about that coat that makes you pick it for that particular character? You've really got to look hard.

[30:50] Jane Greenwood: And much harder than people really. Of detail can only help an audience figure those questions out correct where we are, who they are, those kinds of things and it's sort of ultimately the effortless although it might take a lot of method for a second. I read somewhere that you had advocated for students in costume, lighting, and set design to learn about their craft in a shared space. Why do you think that's so important to you as an educator? I thought it was a fascinating thing.

[31:30] Jane Greenwood: Well, I, you know, it's it, it's people always ask me about that and, you know, I think that there's a great deal to be learned from what other people do and how they do it. I think that also the combination of being with designers who want to be lighting designers, people who want to be costume designers, want to be set designers, they all are stronger but the suit that they want to be and they can kind of influence the other people to pull them up along to make them aware of it. It's just, I just feel it's like all in the sandbox and they learn from each other.

[31:30] Jane Greenwood: And do you think that the notion of them bouncing, not bouncing ideas per se, but if a costume designer is in the room with the lighting designer of a show, you know, I'm sure part of your choices of costume materials, colors, things like that are affected by what the lighting designers do.

[33:36] Jane Greenwood: Absolutely, absolutely. And it's very good for a costume designer and a lighting designer to talk about what they want the look to be. And a lighting designer can want to have everything that's shining in the room, including the clothes. And so it gives you sort of then. Do we talk to the director about, well, do we make all of these fabrics or do we make all these costumes so that they're shiny and have a sort of ethereal weird sort of texture to them, which is going to go along with what the lighting designer and the set designer is wanting to do? Or they work with the talk to each other about what they're doing and why they're doing it, the more they learn.

[34:37] Jane Greenwood: But you've also seen many errors, I would imagine, of American theater. I mean, when I first came here in 1962, I think everything was still box sets, costumes with a capital C. And then they started to sort of dig out the theaters and start to sort of move space so that you weren't just in that small area, and you began to see people coming on in sort of clothes that looked like real clothes instead of costumes, but it was very slow, it was very slow the change, but there was a definite change in the way particularly the Broadway scene changed.

[36:00] Jane Greenwood: I would say that I would say it was probably the eighties where the exaggeration of sort of the life that was happening in the 80s was so eclectic, and you began to see that on the stage that overwhelming more, more is better. Sort of saying on that motif, is there a specific show or type of show, either past or present that you haven't designed yet that you'd like to?

[36:46] Jane Greenwood: Well, you know, for years I always used to say I wanted to design Rosenkavalier because it was a wonderful period. And I love the music and I love the opera. So I would always say that because it was something I would always have loved to have done. I still haven't done Rosenkavalier. So there you are. I did some quite a few movies in the 80s, and I loved it, you know. Can't Stop the Music and Glengarry Glen Ross, when I had seven men on the first day of shooting all telling me they didn't like their ties. I mean, you know, everything is interesting, but there's something about the process of the theater that I'm very comfortable with.

[37:42] Hal Luftig: Jane, I can't tell you what a thrill it has been for me and I know for my audience to have you with us today and shine a light on a part of theater that we don't always get to see. So I thank you tremendously. But I should say before you go, I have three questions that I need to ask, but the rules I call them the rapid fire section. And the just the rules are if I when I ask you, the first thing that comes into your mind, don't overthink, just you know the first one. What is your favorite musical?

[38:24] Jane Greenwood: My favorite musical is The Sound of Music.

[38:28] Hal Luftig: Oh well, great, great answer. Okay, this one might be a little bit harder. What is the wackiest moment you've ever experienced in the theater? And by wacky, I could be silly, it could be like I can't believe this just happened, kind of moment. What would you have one of those?

[38:49] Jane Greenwood: I suppose you ask about a moment when it was wacky, was when I gave Ben Heppner a peg leg in the opera of Moby Dick. And was it wacky? It certainly was a moment when he actually came on stage with the peg leg on and sang.

[39:15] Hal Luftig: Wow. Was he able to maneuver it easily?

[39:19] Jane Greenwood: Walked across the stage. It was unbelievable with his own leg tucked up behind the coat and the peg leg arm. And he weighed I don't know how many pounds.

[39:37] Hal Luftig: Oh my god, that does sound wacky. So if you had to say the lesson you learned from that moment was I learned that you can do anything if you put your mind to it. But sometimes it's very difficult.

[39:56] Jane Greenwood: That is great. That is great. That's a great way to end this episode. So Jane Greenwood, I thank you, I thank you, I thank you. And I look forward to when Broadway comes back, and it will, for us to finish what we started with Plaza Suite. How wonderful that will be.

[40:16] Jane Greenwood: Yes, and we will. Thank you for inviting me.

[40:24] Hal Luftig: Oh, my pleasure. I'm thrilled to have you. I'm sending you a big virtual hug. And when I see you, God willing, when I see you, I'm going to give you a real one.

[40:37] Jane Greenwood: Have you have a great day?

[40:39] Hal Luftig: You too. Bye bye.

[40:41] Jane Greenwood: Okay, bye.

[40:47] Hal Luftig: Thank you for listening to today's episode. Broadway Biz is part of the Broadway Podcast Network. Is produced by Dylan Marie Parent and Kevin Connor, and is edited by Derek Gunther. Our theme music is by Nell Benjamin and Larry O'Keefe. Be sure to subscribe to Broadway Biz and follow us on Instagram at Broadway Biz Podcast.