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[0:00] Cyndi Lauper: Doing the Broadway thing, it's not so much about me, it's about the character. But what you try and remember is what makes you a human and what you could put in the song that makes them a human to move the story forward so that at the end of this humanity that they're going through, they have an aha moment, which takes them to the next part of their story.

[0:30] Hal Luftig: Hi everyone, this is Hal Luftig with my podcast, Broadway Biz. This week I sat down with the incomparable Cyndi Lauper, who I was thrilled to work with on Kinky Boots. Cyndi and I spoke about her writing process for Kinky and how she's staying creative in our virtual world on this episode of Broadway Biz.

[1:12] Cyndi Lauper: Good morning. How are you, Hal? How's your piano?

[1:18] Hal Luftig: I should uh let me say I want to tell the listeners that quick little story. So when we, when Cyndi was writing Kinky Boots, um, we would often come over to my apartment where I have this old piano, and you know, they would we would read a scene or so, and Cyndi would play a song or two. And one day she turned to me, she said, you know, this piano is like, let's just say it was crap. And I said, Sin, it's in a piano that was given to me by my friend's mom, and she was dying, blah, blah, blah. So Cyndi said, if this show is a hit, Hal, it needed a doctor.

[1:52] Cyndi Lauper: Yeah, it did.

[1:53] Hal Luftig: And you sent the doctor, which was so hilarious. This doctor gave me a call and came over and restrucked, you know, rebuilt my entire piano. I'm so grateful. It's such a great story. We didn't just go over like that. I actually put together a jug band, which made everybody very nervous.

[2:13] Cyndi Lauper: I played Dulcimer too. And I don't think Harvey ever got over the fact that I brought my dulcimer, but I just needed rhythm, you know. And there was only Sam who was part of my writing team, played guitar. And then I had Steve Gabori who played piano. I had background singers that brought a guy who played Kungas. So we had rhythm. And it was interesting. You know, there's such a big difference between what we did then and how it's done now with this pandemic, it's so so it's so much harder.

[2:49] Cyndi Lauper: Even writing because of the latency. You're shouting when you're talking to somebody, because I for some reason when you're online, you always think they can't hear you, you know. And the problem is it's not that they can't hear you because it's not loud enough. They can't hear you because if they're playing something and you're singing at the same time, you can't hear them, and guess what? They can't hear you. So we've tried with speakers and lowering the speakers and singing softer and just trying to get it so you could hear each other. And honestly, it's a big pain in the butt. But you know, we're just it's so different. It's so different.

[3:36] Hal Luftig: I can imagine. So um, would I be correct to infer that writing as an artist, writing with your partners uh in person is much more fluid or it's faster?

[3:37] Cyndi Lauper: A lot faster. You still have to negotiate as a singer and someone who doesn't play keyboards or guitar really well. I have terrible, I mean and and truth be known yeah when I got a veg out I should just pick up the guitar or the dulcimer and just play scales but I don't. I mean I'm I may try start and start to do that you know but it's very difficult because you're always negotiating anyway so you have to negotiate with someone to play the chord that you kind of want and not make them feel like they are being told to play a chord you know just gotta like you know let it happen and then kind of steer it and you know and and that is a lot of energy as it is but and then there's the people that you've worked with all your life which is easier you know it's much easier because you know where they're gonna go they know kind of where you're gonna go and it's okay you know you're doing something um but online you really I mean maybe it's just I don't know it's just a second show and then second shows things are just harder different way different we had a very different team you know Harvey was kind of like a teacher, and and I would bring, you know, I was just, I thought you wanted me to write pop songs.

[5:24] Hal Luftig: Easy. I can do that with hooks, because I they always say, Where's the hook? Where's the hook? You know, that's great. Where's the hook? You know, so I was gonna ask you uh about that. You know, so what sparked your interest uh in writing for Broadway?

[5:39] Cyndi Lauper: You know, at first I wanted to write my story and maybe do a one-woman show about what it was like growing up in Queens and Brooklyn, and the people and the women that I saw um that inspired me visually and through whatever heartaches they were going through, and seeing my mom, my grandmother, and my aunt as women, which is very different times I grew up in, and that they grew up in. So the last century. So she lived through women's rights, which she never even got to experience. Um, and then my mom lived through the second world war, and what that was like, and my aunt living in growing up in the 50s or the um late 40s, and trying to navigate what she wanted, and in reality, the culture that I was born into, plus the American culture and society and religion and the laws, did not really promote uh any kind of advancement, not only for people of color, but basically for women.

[7:22] Cyndi Lauper: So those people, those dreams that were dashed, those stories were all of my aha moments in writing. And I listened to my mother's Broadway records. Not that we ever went to Broadway, because literally we couldn't afford it. So she would take us to everything that was free. We went to the Del Court Theater to see the Shakespeare stuff, the Greek tragedies. Although I must confess, some of them Greek tragedies like Medea, I kept looking at my mother saying, thinking to myself, is she trying right? Is she trying to tell me something? I was like, come on, Ma, snap out of it.

[8:21] Cyndi Lauper: But it's it's the whole idea of how I learned was really through my mother meeting my father, and his love for culture and and the arts and history and literature, my mom became captivated with Sicilian Italian homes, uh, women are not encouraged to read, participate in culture. What you participate in, what your role in the world should be, right? Is domestic labor, basically, and having kids. And there's nothing wrong with having a family and having kids. What's wrong is being told that that's what you are here to do.

[9:20] Cyndi Lauper: And it's just like when I spoke to my cousin, she was older than me, and she said she went to college. I said, Oh my god, you went to college? What were you gonna be? And she said, B, I wasn't gonna be anything. I was gonna get married. And I thought to myself, oh my god, you know, and that's when that's what you taught, that's what's ingrained. That's the problem. That was always the problem. And I happen to know it's true because my brother married a wonderful, wonderful Sicilian woman, and her parents, uh, my brothers-in-laws, you know, that's what was ingrained in my sister-in-law's mom, you know, she used to laugh. She had a TV in the kitchen, and she would call that. I she would say to me, I have an Italian divorce, because she would spend a lot of time in the kitchen, and her husband barely went in the kitchen. Um, and yeah, that's what was expected of her. My sister-in-law was the first one person of her generation to step outside that box. So you're absolutely right about that.

[10:30] Cyndi Lauper: Well, yeah, you're supposed to marry an Italian, or you were supposed to marry, honestly, a Jewish lawyer. And I kept saying, What if you're a freak and nobody wants to marry you? Well, my sister in law did half of it. She married a Jewish person, but my brother is not a lawyer. He's an educator, so she got it half right, I guess.

[10:56] Hal Luftig: You broke a glass ceiling in 2013. You were the first woman ever to win the Tony Award for both score, you know, and lyrics.

[11:08] Cyndi Lauper: And you were the first woman who ever did that. What was that like for you when you heard your name and in that instant, in a nanosecond, you just, you know, you changed forever a trajectory of how women can function in the Broadway industry. Honestly, how I was so worried about the show being a success, that I just felt like we won, and that means it's a hit, you know, honestly, it's so stupid, right? It's very stupid. I think it's good that the ceiling was broken. I think it's good that the team we had was a great one. I certainly don't think I knew what the heck I got myself into, or even knew what I was doing. I was just trying to do the right thing, make it right, make the sound right, make the story right, make the songs, songs that you felt emotional about, that you could understand each different person who was singing.

And because Harvey kept saying, I guess saying, well, what are the rules? Because, you know, tell me what the rules are. And he said, there are no rules. And when he said there are no rules, I was like, nobody's gonna be, you know, telling me you can't write music like that. You can't sing music like that. You have to sing music like this. So all of a sudden, all the stuff that I was told I wasn't supposed to do, I did.

[12:57] Hal Luftig: Were you told that previously by when you were writing pop songs?

[13:01] Cyndi Lauper: Yeah, record industry, record industry, yeah. It was always like sin. Like when I did Half Four Stars, they said sin. You're a celebrity. You can't, you're Cyndi Lauper, you can't write this. You can't sing this. I'm like, okay. So then I kind of made it a thing not to be a celebrity. And then they said, Sin, you need to be a celebrity. And I was like, oh my God. You know, it didn't matter with the record company actually it didn't matter. And the way the record business is now, it's like it's gotten so corporate. I came up from the clubs. I learned how to perform in a cover band in cover bands, which wasn't just one. And I used to feel like, you know, there's gotta be something more. So, you know, I just was, you know, caught in a weird world, but I kept going and I got to the next level where I could perform in the city where people just came to hear you actually sing.

I thought, wow, this could be for me. And, you know, and I just then I started working on writing songs again that I thought people would want to hear, or you know, it was really always about me because I think I'm very self-centered. You know, doing the Broadway thing, it's not so much about me, it's about the character. But what you try and remember is what makes you a human and what you could put in the song that makes them a human to move the story forward so that at the end of this humanity that they're going through, they have an aha moment, which takes them to the next part of their story. I don't know. That's kind of how I think this thing that I'm doing is. But you know, now I'm so happy I went to school for art, because yeah, I'm not doing any of it.

[15:15] Hal Luftig: Well, Cyndi, I would love to talk to you about inspiration, because you were just sort of mentioning that about writing songs for you. One of the most beautiful songs in Kinky Boots, the one that over all of our wherever we went, the one song that just hit everybody like right in the heart was Not My Father's Son. And I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about what was the inspiration. How did you come up with that notion? Because you wrote such a beautiful song in the end that even the hardest of hearts in that theater I would watch would just people would just tear up. So, what was the inspiration for you for that moment?

[15:55] Cyndi Lauper: Watching my own son and my husband and watching the expectations and the unspoken expectations or the very spoken expectations that sometimes as a little human you can't do it like them. You can't be like your parents, and that's the hardest thing for kids and for parents. For kids, it takes so much courage, especially if you have a parent who's successful at something that you aspire to do. It takes so much courage to divorce yourself a little from them and become and look inside your authentic self and find the things who you are, you know, and that's the hardest thing. And even, you know, our kid played hockey. He was wonderful on the ice, actually. He had great wrists, and he could see the ice in a completely different like he could just see the whole thing, and that is what was special in the fact that when he did skate, he used to tell us as a kid that he could he felt like he was flying.

I saw him disappoint his father, or his father disappoint him, and I saw which happens, and I'm sure I disappointed him plenty of times. But I just saw him come out in his little Spartan, all these little Spartans, you know, with the helmets and the whole, you know, sticks and pads and the whole thing. And it just hit me one day. I'm not my father's son. I'm not the image of what he dreamed of. And my mother-in-law once said that my husband, which I agree, has the patience of Job. I thought, okay. Still couldn't be the one. You know, still couldn't echo you. I can't be your reflection, even if I try so hard. I still can't. Because in reality, in the end, I have to really look to my own authentic self.

Which, if you listen to any of those master classes, you'll hear people say that all the time that you have to be your authentic self. And what Harvey was talking about, that was the heart of what I thought Harvey was talking about.

[19:15] Hal Luftig: What a beautiful, beautiful story.

[19:18] Cyndi Lauper: Well, maybe just a long one, I guess. I'm sorry.

[19:21] Hal Luftig: No, it was, it was a beautiful story, and it was beautiful in the show itself. It touched people in a way. Like I would say, the hardest of theater goers would be moved. Cyndi, when you write a song, do you have any hopes or aspirations how the song will be received, or do you not think about that? You just write for yourself.

[19:46] Cyndi Lauper: No, no, no, no. I well, yeah, you have to kind of write for yourself. I guess in a show thing, I'm just trying to write something that is good enough, that people will enjoy, that's catchy. I mean, you get to different levels of a song. Like that's your first thing. But then you gotta look at it and think, does this have a lot of feeling? Is this make you feel anything for this character? And, you know, you look at it again, you have to think about relationships with the people, and then you know, that's where I am right now. Before all I know is I never write something and say, okay, this is how I do it, because I don't really care. I just care that I'm doing it. I don't care if I pick up an instrument that can't really play, but it already has some chords on it, and with those chords, that's how I write that song.

I don't care if I sit with an omnicord and press buttons. I don't care. I don't care how it comes. I don't care if I wrote a poem or a story first. Now, with what I'm doing with the show, I'm starting to learn that I need poster boards and an arc thing. And I have to write in what I need before the song to move things. I gotta write like the thing, and it's a collaboration with someone else who's writing the book. And so it's always this way, I guess. This is a new way for me, but because basically Harvey told me, I want a song called It Has to Say. I'm all right, okay, I could do that. Jerry jumping up and down in the rehearsal room going, I want a song where everybody says yeah. And I was like, okay, everybody say yeah.

[22:03] Hal Luftig: And then, you know, that's where that came from. And then, you know, I just tried to give what I thought would make the show better. I think I must have come along in Kinky Boots well after the fact of having them do it already and throw it out and start again, right? Didn't I?

[22:28] Cyndi Lauper: Yes, you yes, you did.

[22:29] Hal Luftig: Well, not we didn't go too far down the road with the other composer, um, because Harvey immediately realized that that there was not it was not a marriage made in heaven, and basically said to Darryl Roth and myself, the other producer, um, Harvey said, Look, you can either choose them or me, but um we're not gonna be able to work together. And he he was very astute about that. And after six months of just trying, he said, we're writing very different shows, um, which we were, you know, disheartened by, but he said, I have an idea who could write this show, and I were like, who? And he said, Cyndi Lauper.

[23:09] Cyndi Lauper: And I I remember immediately thinking, Oh, that's genius. That's just oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause there was just something about, you know, don't forget, Cyndi, I had I had seen you perform many times. I had listened to your music, I was a big follower, and you know, I just knew or sensed that you had it in you, that you were going to be this new brilliant voice in Broadway and bring both.

[23:38] Cyndi Lauper: Well, I don't know if I'm brilliant, Hal. I wish I was. If I was brilliant, I would already know how to do stuff. But every time I come to a new thing, it's like, oh yeah, yeah. Okay, you have to learn something new now, like totally new. And I think every time you do this stuff with a show, and tell me if I'm wrong, ain't it that you have to relearn everything, that it's always different, that it's never the same.

[24:06] Hal Luftig: But the fact that you're willing to relearn it or look at it through a different lens is what makes you a brilliant artist. It really is. You know, there was nothing the one thing I learned about you during Kinky Boots was there was nothing precious about you or what you wrote. If it didn't work, it was gone. And you were the most, I think, critical of that, of like that song doesn't work. And you know, I remember Jerry, you know, Harvey saying, Wait, wait, wait, don't don't don't be so quick with that. But you were like, That song doesn't work. Get it, you know, let me rewrite something better. And it always astounded me that you did that. And that is to me a sign of brilliance.

[24:49] Hal Luftig: Cyndi, I know that you have very, very limited time, but I want to just ask you what I call three rapid fire questions, which means I'm just gonna ask you when you answer. In other words, short answers, will ya?

[25:01] Cyndi Lauper: Okay.

[25:13] Hal Luftig: Okay. So one. The first one is what is your favorite musical?

[25:19] Cyndi Lauper: Hmm. Honestly, well, there's a lot. I don't have one. I know the ones when I was the ones that I was little that really shaped what I do now would have to be The King and I. Um, because of all the different voices. Oh, yeah. I just loved all the different voices. And um, Funny Girl, those were kind of like my favorites. But, you know, now that you go to see theater, you know.

[25:54] Cyndi Lauper: I knew all about Romeo and Juliet when I was a kid, because we went to Delacour Theater all the time, and there was always a version of Romeo and Juliet. It's so funny, because those shows, those Shakespeare plays, you know, my I had a friend once and he went to college and he was an English major, and I turned on channel 13 and I was watching it, and he said, You don't even understand what they're saying. I said, Yeah, I do. Yeah, see this guy over here, he did this to this one. And now this one's really a, you know, because that's what it looked like to me, you know. And he's like, no, it's a whole different language. It means something else. It's old English. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, okay.

[26:40] Hal Luftig: You're a genius. You're a genius. You know what you could do if you ever want to just change professions? You could go into schools and teach Shakespeare just like that. This is what happens, you know. I mean, kids will love it.

[26:55] Cyndi Lauper: No, you can't do that. I mean, listen, people go to learn English, which is an art. And I always think one of these days I should just learn proper English. But for now, you know, I'm learning something else. And I had to learn Pro Tools, and I had to learn Zencaster, which is what you're on. Um, you know, because now that's our new world. Um, and to participate in the new world, you have to learn how to do certain things.

[27:32] Hal Luftig: Right. It's exactly what I said a little earlier about you learning certain tools for Broadway musicals. Um, and you're willing to do that and explore that, and that's what I think makes a person brilliant.

[27:46] Cyndi Lauper: Well, I'm still learning how. The day I stop learning things is the day I die. Every day I learn something. I do, and I'm not even aware of it when I do, but I I learned something. Final question of today is what is something you hope will change about theater or the entertainment industry in your lifetime?

[28:09] Cyndi Lauper: Well, a lot has changed. Um, but the corporate mentality always seeps its way back in. And it's just two different things to me. I can't mush them together, although to sell it, it has to be corporate. But I am not that. I think um I think for Broadway, I just hope it can come back. I think uh we've been kind of decimated with uh kind of just I'm just hoping it can come back. You know, you you want to change. I want to see it come back again. I want to see it live, but we can't until everyone has a vaccine, until we start to understand about contagious diseases, and somehow we gotta figure out how you cannot have to be right on top of each other and squished in.

[29:09] Cyndi Lauper: But uh, you know, I don't see how you're gonna make any money in a small theater, because I think it's small, isn't it? What is it? You you look if you have a thousand people in there, right?

[29:21] Hal Luftig: Yeah, or a thousand, the the you know, the largest one, you know, is 1500, 1600.

[29:27] Cyndi Lauper: Yeah, it's it's still not that many people when you think about it, you know. And if you have to reduce that even more, we are going to have to look at the economics of Broadway. We we will.

[29:40] Hal Luftig: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what they are. I know that it's always exciting to go see a show, if you can go see a show, but I I don't know, um, I don't know. I'm just writing right now, and I'm hoping that this comes together.

[29:59] Cyndi Lauper: I think it will, you know.

[30:01] Hal Luftig: Yeah. Um look, I think we will figure it out, Cyndi. I just, you know, the fat you know, the theater's called the Fabulous Invalid. And it's always been why? Well, it's always because it's always threatened to, you know, to die at some point. You know, when when movies came out, it was gonna, you know, where talkies came out, it was gonna kill Broadway. When, you know, uh uh the DVDs and things came out, it was gonna kill Broadway. Okay. Um and you know, and it never has. You know, there is something about being live that can never be captured on streaming or on a Zoom, or this as even as well as it's done. Um, there's something about being in a theater with other people in the dark, laughing and and crying at the same moments that I think cannot be replaced.

[30:52] Cyndi Lauper: So I think there was a lot of that's if you could get them to laugh and cry. That's good.

[30:57] Hal Luftig: Well, if you can't, but that's another that's a whole different topic for a whole different uh podcast.

[31:03] Cyndi Lauper: But you're right, you're right.

[31:05] Hal Luftig: Cyndi, I'm gonna let you go because I know you have uh a lot of things to do. I'm just so grateful that you took the time to be with us today. Um, and I love you tons, and my wish for the future is that you and I get to do another project together.

[31:21] Cyndi Lauper: Well, that'd be great, Hal. I thought you were a great producer.

[31:24] Hal Luftig: Uh well, Cyndi Lauper, you be well, stay safe, stay healthy. Um you know, we're because when we do come back, I wanna see you there.

[31:33] Cyndi Lauper: Okay. It's a date.

[31:34] Hal Luftig: Well, I'll have my show ready, that's for sure.

[31:40] Cyndi Lauper: Okay.

[31:41] Hal Luftig: And I'll be the first in line.

[31:43] Cyndi Lauper: All right. You be well sent a big hug and kiss.

[31:46] Cyndi Lauper: Bye bye.

[31:46] Hal Luftig: Bye bye.

[31:49] Cyndi Lauper: I'm not my father.

[31:56] Cyndi Lauper: I'm not the image of what he dreamed of with the strength of Spider and the patience of Joe.

[32:10] Cyndi Lauper: Still couldn't be the woe.

[32:21] Hal Luftig: Thank you for listening to today's episode. Broadway Biz is part of the Broadway Podcast Network.

[32:28] Hal Luftig: Is produced by Dylan Marie Parent and Kevin Connor, and is edited by Derek Gunther. Our theme music is by Nell Benjamin and Larry O'Keefe.

[32:38] Hal Luftig: Be sure to subscribe to Broadway Biz and follow us on Instagram at Broadway Biz Podcast.