This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Robert W. Schneider: Will everyone here kindly step to the rear, and let a winner lead the way? A Reading from the Prophet Stephen Joshua Sondheim. Quoth the Sondheim, The story was sturdy. It just took us fourteen years to find out what it was. Fourteen years and four scripts reflected in their titles. Wise Guys, Opportunity vs. Opportunism, Gold, Greed vs. Morality, Bounce, Resilience and Reinvention, and Roadshow, Finding Your Destiny. Roadshow is the right title for what we arrived at, but it's a bit drab. I still prefer Get Rich Quick, which hints at all four. Like Wilson, the show kept reinventing itself. What's Next could have been our theme song, and maybe even our title. In Reinvented Self it did. It only took sixty songs, fifty years, nine leads, five directors, four scripts and two composers to have a sentimental guy slash wise guys slash gold slash bounce slash roadshow to finally emerge, only to be thwarted at every attempt to play Broadway.

But this was the god himself, Stephen Sondheim. How could he not get it right? Well, you see what happened was, well, guess you're going to need to listen to find out. Welcome back to another episode of Broadway Bound, the musicals that never came to Broadway, and if you like this show, please head over to robwschneider.com, click A-M-T-A, make a tax-deductible donation so that this show can continue on.

[1:43] Robert W. Schneider: Today's an interesting one for us because of its author, Stephen Sondheim. Unlike the other shows in this series, anything Sondheim did was documented beyond belief, so the story of the Meisner Brothers musical has been given over one hundred pages in Sondheim's Look I Made a Hat book, other authors have dissected its rise and fall, and the songs have appeared in concerts, cabarets, and the countless reviews celebrating Stephen Sondheim. Honestly, friends, the next time you want to do a review celebrating the song Stephen Sondheim wrote while he was eating breakfast, or songs Sondheim could have written if he only had used a harmonica, or melodies Sondheim farted in his old age, now at fifty-four below, please remember there are other songwriters out there who also need reviews.

Honestly, if you told Sondheim that we are using a theater to do a review of his work and not a new composer's work, I'm sure he would be the first to say, knock it off. So all of that is to say, a lot of the story of this show has been covered other places, but we have been given access to some behind-the-scenes communication that has not been heard or published before. Mwahaha.

[2:46] Robert W. Schneider: Our story starts way back in Hollywood, 1950. Picture it. Like Sicily. But not. 1953. Stephen Sondheim is flying back from sunny Los Angeles, and he needs some reading material on the cross-country plane ride, and let's be clear, this is not Stephen Sondheim, but Steve Sondheim, disgruntled TV writer coming back from the Viper pit of LA after writing for a TV show called Topper. Ironically, that would be his grinder name later on in life. Well, Steve is flipping through The New Yorker, and he comes across an interesting article by Alva Johnston — two articles, actually — about two real-life brothers named Addison and Wilson Meisner, whose lives told two very different intersecting tales. Wilson was a Renaissance man, a gold miner, a saloon owner, a playwright, a manager of heavyweights, a hotel owner, the husband of one of America's most prominent society ladies, and a bon vivant that every dinner party wanted for their menagerie.

He actually coined the phrase, be nice to the people on the way up, because they're the same people you're going to meet on the way down. Or, as Steve recalled, a man of many gifts, but never focused on any one of them to reach a potential.

[4:04] Robert W. Schneider: His younger brother Addison, on the other hand, was a stable and quiet architect, one that actually won the approval of Frank Lloyd Wright. He was a closeted homosexual, and a man who ended up creating Boca Raton, Florida. Yes, Boca Raton, Florida, with his incredible tailor-made homes and mansions for the uber-rich, a world Addison wanted to be a part of so bad. Addison used Mediterranean Revival and Spanish Colonial Revival in his architecture, and that is still the mode of Boca Raton today. What's even more unique is he felt architecture was not simply for the outside, and he integrated home decor, furnishings, wallpaper, etc., and gardening into his designs. Kids, the whole kit and caboodle. Venice of the Atlantic is what he would call his Boca Raton resort, which would feature a 1,000-room hotel, two golf courses, a polo field, parks, and miles of paved and landscaped streets, which included a 160-foot-wide grand boulevard called El Camino Real.

[5:52] Robert W. Schneider: Now, Wilson, his brother, was able to convince Addison to include him in this housing business, and they promised Boca Raton as a place that would be the end-all and be-all of wealth and privilege and society. Addison would build the homes, Wilson would promote them, get buyers, or, as Sondheim best described them, their closeness was intense, but in most ways they could not have been more different. Wilson, the unashamedly public lover of heiresses and celebrities, Addison, the closeted homosexual, Wilson, the addicted gambler with underworld connections, Addison, the obsessed social climber, Wilson, the irresponsible cheat and low-life, Addison, the grandiose but moral artist, Wilson, the destroyer, Addison, the dreamer, Wilson, the leader, Addison, the follower.

I found Wilson charming, but according to those who knew him, George Abbott for one, he apparently was a slimy, manipulative, irredeemable bastard. This discovery not only didn't diminish my enthusiasm, it stimulated it. But he apparently needed money to build these things, and the Misners did not have enough of it, causing a land boom collapse in 1926. They declared bankruptcy, and Addison Misner was left forlorn. Everyone says that Addison's problem was big dreams with no logic on how to do it. Years later they discovered tons of people were embezzling from his company, most likely his brother too, and he never knew. He was not a crook. He was just naive.

[6:18] Robert W. Schneider: Wilson, on the other hand, was a crook, and shrewd as can be. Anything for a buck Wilson Misner, for whom truth was a luxury he couldn't afford. He told the world he was a deputy sheriff whose job it was to tell Eskimos in Alaska to smell better. He robbed a candy store for chocolate for his girlfriend Nellie the Pig, what a charming name, and found legitimacy when he tailed Addison to New York City. Addison was successful and in the higher echelon, so Wilson grabbed those coattails and started suckering Addie's friends. He wrote a Broadway play, married a rich dowager twice his age, and managed a heavyweight who was murdered, causing Wilson to quip, quote, tell him to start counting ten over him and he'll get up.

Add an opium addiction, gambling addiction, and the inability to tell the truth, and you had a perfect storm. So Sondheim got home and began plotting out how he could take their colorful life and turn it into a musical. He ran to the bookstore, bought a copy of their biography, The Legendary Misners, and began writing. He said, quote, when I first read about them I was fascinated by the way Wilson was the jack of all trades and the master of none. I wanted to explore what's behind that kind of restlessness that occurs when somebody can't find his talent and flits from one thing to another as Wilson did in real life.

[7:33] Robert W. Schneider: Here was the first song that Stephen Sondheim wrote many moons ago.

[7:44] ♪ Musical number: "An Afternoon in Venetia" — performed by Stephen Sondheim ♪

[9:19] Robert W. Schneider: He played that song in another one called I Wouldn't Change a Thing for Hal Prince, who was encouraging and told Sondheim to go grab the rights to the book. But Sondheim was too late. Producer David Merrick owned the property and was working on it with Irving Berlin, a friend of the Misners and who had supported them during the lean years, and S.N. Berman as a star vehicle for Bob Hope as Wilson Misner. It would be called A Sentimental Guy. Berlin even took the time to write a few songs for the show, 16 in total, actually. Here is the title song, written by Irving Berlin.

[10:15] ♪ Musical number: "You're a Sentimental Guy" — performed by Irving Berlin ♪

[11:03] Robert W. Schneider: Eventually, everyone moved on to other projects. The rights to the show lapsed, and Sondheim went off to become Stephen Sondheim. Yes, the man who changed musical theater with his complex melodies and lyric wizardry became the person every songwriter on Broadway wanted.

[14:36] Robert W. Schneider: Lyrics for West Side Story, Gypsy, Full Scores to Forum, Company, Follies, A Little Night Music, Sweeney Todd, Sunday in the Park with George, Into the Woods, any one of those would have been enough, but my God, all of them? Yes.

[14:46] Robert W. Schneider: Yet the idea of the Meisner Brothers and their exploits around America at the turn of the 20th century never left his mind. He was fascinated by this story and didn't want to let it go, and by 1993, it was time to do it.

[15:01] Robert W. Schneider: There are really four acts in Sondheim's life: Sondheim before Hal Prince, Sondheim with Hal Prince, Sondheim after Hal Prince, and Sondheim the Elder, the musical version of the Meisner Brothers' life story that kicks off the era that we're going to call Sondheim the Elder.

[15:19] Robert W. Schneider: It's 1993, and it's time for a change, and when John Wideman, who worked with Sondheim on Pacific Overtures and Assassins, came to him with the idea of musicalizing the forming of the League of Nations, Sondheim said, wait, I know something even better than that, and he told Wideman the story of the Meisners.

[15:38] Robert W. Schneider: Wideman heard the story and thought, well, just based on this one book, Wilson strikes me as a jerk, but his brother Addison is interesting. I was intrigued in the way in which the personalities of the two Meisner Brothers intersected, helped each other, and destroyed each other. That, along with the context of the America in which their story took place, all felt like it had the right size and scope to be a musical.

[16:01] Robert W. Schneider: Perhaps it was the residue of Bob Hope's ghost on the project, but they looked at the show as a classic road picture. We don't remember road pictures today, but they were a series of seven films starring Bob Hope and Bing Crosby as hucksters who were trying to get rich quick in exotic locales like Bali and Singapore, all while Dorothy L'Amour danced around them.

[16:22] Robert W. Schneider: Crosby was the sophisticate, and Hope was saddled with the dirty work, sort of like Wilson and Addison. They usually played out-of-work vaudeville performers, and that actually worked great, as the Meisners' lives paralleled the rise and fall of vaudeville from the 1880s to the 1930s. Well, what if the whole show was a vaudeville? Chicago had done it, Love Life had done it, and so could the Meisner Brothers in the new Sondheim-Wideman musical Wise Guys.

[16:49] Robert W. Schneider: So, Sondheim and Wideman began to work and created a story that took us from their first venture to Alaska looking for gold all the way through their subsequent split and deaths. Sondheim at first decided to write the score as if it was one vaudeville number after another leaning into the world of pastiche.

[17:06] Robert W. Schneider: He wanted Merrily-esque simplicity, 32-bar type things, fast, swift, memorable. But soon that tired him writing in pastiche, so he decided that only the opening, transitions, and closing would be vaudeville, and everything in between could vary. He even went so far as to recycle, something that he was not prone to do.

[17:23] Robert W. Schneider: A song called Addison's Trip, a montage showing Addison going around the world on failed ventures, picking up souvenirs, and realizing that he was at heart an architect, was the same melody and concept as a song he wrote called Lunch for an abandoned movie musical called Living Out Loud.

[17:40] Robert W. Schneider: On April 13, 1995, the news broke that a new Sondheim show was in the works, and the little nugget would be prophetic. This was from the New York Times, quote, There's no New York date yet, but can you imagine a new Sondheim musical not coming in?

[17:57] Robert W. Schneider: A new Sondheim musical was like catnip to producers, and the Kennedy Center approached the boys and said, Hey, our 25th anniversary is taking place in 1996, and we want to do Wise Guys. So Wise Guys would open the 1996 season at the Kennedy Center and then transfer to Broadway.

[18:14] Robert W. Schneider: But Weidman got tied up with writing the book for Big, Sondheim's home burned down, and Wise Guys was put on the shelf. I'm sorry, Kennedy Center. But, softly, to a few friends, the lateness of the project was due to something else. Sondheim admitted, quote, I think my trouble is partly loss of confidence, loss of brain cells, and some kind of creative energy that leaves you.

[18:38] Robert W. Schneider: It didn't matter the Meisner Brothers was not a finished musical. Hell, a lot of Sondheim shows went into rehearsal not finished. Commercial producers were interested, and something had to go up in front of potential producers. So there was talk of doing a workshop at the Kennedy Center, but that never materialized.

[18:53] Robert W. Schneider: So by 1997, the two men reconvened, grabbed a young director named Laurie Steinberg, did a private reading of Act One for friends, starring Victor Garber as the charming Wilson, and Patrick Quinn as the subservient Addison. Then, six months later, a second reading with more material, and now Garber was playing opposite Nathan Lane as Addison, and the chemistry was electric.

[19:17] Robert W. Schneider: This would lead the show to finally have some real producers interested, and they were heavy hitters. Dodger Productions, Roger Berlinde, and Scott Rudin, with Rudin taking the reins of Wise Guys. The show was good, but needed some work. A lot more work, because the two brothers had a patterned reaction to just about every situation. Wilson was a salesman, do something naughty, and Addison would always be disappointed. They needed a director.

[19:42] Robert W. Schneider: Laurie Steinberg was fine, but they needed a real force. Enter Sam Mendes. Once upon a time, Sam Mendes was the artistic director of the Donmar Warehouse in England, and there he did revivals of Assassins and Company that were mind-blowingly good, not to mention his cabaret that he did with Alan Cumming.

[20:01] Robert W. Schneider: Soon, Mendes was the go-to stage director, guiding Nicole Kidman in The Blue Room, and he was being courted to direct a movie by Alan Ball that would become American Beauty. In 1998, Sondheim and Wideman went to London to visit Mendes. Would Mendes be willing to take on Gold, as it was now being called, and bring it to Broadway? Of course! Sondheim said, the good thing is that his suggestions are always worth considering and often worth exploring.

[20:28] Robert W. Schneider: The bad news is that his suggestions are always worth considering and often worth exploring, and that takes time. Mendes' biggest suggestion was, just because it happened doesn't mean it is needed. For example, the Misners were two of eight children. Is that important? Nope, so we don't have to talk about the other six. Addison was as good of a conman as Wilson, so where is the drama in that if both men are good at this?

[20:52] Robert W. Schneider: He also felt that the whimsy of the Hope and Crosby movies was forcing a distance in the material that allowed the writers not to take the piece seriously. What if they invented men based on the Misners, but didn't call them the Misners, so they could flex their artistic muscles more? Well, Sondheim and Wideman said no to that, but understood the point to free themselves of truth and reality.

[21:14] Robert W. Schneider: Another problem they were facing was Sondheim's desire to keep musicalizing moments that really happened, and his desire to say, well, this moment really did happen, even though nobody cared. He didn't really want to take artistic license with their lives, and the moments in their lives he found interesting felt really dull to just about everyone else.

[21:32] Robert W. Schneider: It was now announced that it would open in the summer of 1998 at the Kennedy Center, starring Nathan Lane and Victor Garber, but that did not happen. Then it would come straight to Broadway in the fall of 1999 with Lane and Garber, but that did not happen. Then it was announced that the spring of 2000 it would star Nathan Lane and Victor Garber, and of course that did not happen.

[21:53] Robert W. Schneider: Finally, the producers were getting nervous. They needed to see something, and they asked the team if they would do a three-week workshop at New York Theatre Workshop of Gold, as was being called for a hot second, presented as a staged reading with Garber and Lane in November of 1999, and they would add on a cast to include Michael C. Hall, pre-Dexter, as Addison's lover Hollis, and an ensemble of, get this, Brooks Ashmanskas, Kevin Chamberlain, Christopher Fitzgerald, and Nancy Opel.

[22:20] Robert W. Schneider: After the workshop, it would open April 27, 2000 on Broadway. By the time of the April 27 announcement, it was no longer called Gold. It was now once again called Wise Guys. We should take a moment to talk about these title changes, as they are the underlying problem with this particular story.

[22:37] Robert W. Schneider: What is this show really about? Wise Guys, especially with mafiosos, felt Italian mobster. Gold felt vague. Sondheim, as you know, wanted to call it Get Rich Quick, but everyone said that feels like a game show. Boy, would Broadway have benefited, though, from a new Sondheim musical in the 1999-2000 season. For those of you who don't remember, that season gave us Saturday Night Fever, James Joyce's The Dead, Contact, and Aida.

[23:04] Robert W. Schneider: Oh boy. So, right before the workshop debuted, Sondheim wrote a letter to the New York Times describing his journey with Wise Guys. In it, he said, quote,

[23:34] Robert W. Schneider: One of the things that was nouveau about The Vague was its blurring of moral boundaries. Was Belmondo a villain or a hero? And while movie makers Godard, Truffaut, Chabrol complicated the bandit outsider, playwrights Guare, Shepard, Albee, etc. extolled the eccentric.

[23:53] Robert W. Schneider: Gray became and has remained the favorite color of the popular arts, and Wise Guys is richer for it. By sheer chronology, it has become a Clinton-era musical. Authors' commentaries about what they have written, or at least what they think they have written, are in the long run unnecessary. Works of art, even popular art, are probably best left to speak for themselves. Still, information about them can be helpful, and in the end I have three points I wish to make about Wise Guys.

[24:23] Robert W. Schneider: 1. It's not about the mafia. 2. It's a musical comedy. 3. It's here. At last.

[24:31] Robert W. Schneider: And truthfully, it was not the most pleasant of experiences. Little rehearsal time, no money, no second act, constant revisions, and a less-than-plus group of audience members. The first act ended with both brothers beat up separately, then performing on crutches and canes for the rest of the show.

[24:48] Robert W. Schneider: How did the second act open? Well, that's a great question. When the show went into its workshop, there was no second act. Not until the last week of rehearsal or so did the actors get a second act to the piece.

[24:58] Robert W. Schneider: Plus, Sam Mendes was now about to be Academy Award winner Sam Mendes for American Beauty, and his attention and enthusiasm for Wise Guys waned, and he brought his doubts about the material to the room, which forced the actors then to be doubtful.

[25:14] Robert W. Schneider: Sondheim recalled at the first public performance, the opening went over like gangbusters, and everything else became tepid. The audience was not engaged. Sondheim said, I think they thought they were going to see Sunday or Pacific Overtures, not a musical comedy.

[25:28] Robert W. Schneider: And Sam Mendes needed a new sense of direction, so he asked Sondheim and Weidman to go away for a few days. The objective would be Mendes would tinker with the first act, restructure it, then show it to Sondheim and Weidman.

[25:40] Robert W. Schneider: And when they returned, there was a new opening, a flashback that shows the brothers at the end of their lives dying, and telling the audience they would emcee the story of their lives. Sondheim thought the explosive argument that triggered the flashback was more effective than telling the audience it's a flashback.

[26:00] Robert W. Schneider: In fact, let me play for you the opening number that was originally in the workshop. This is Victor Garber and Nathan Lane with the opening number, which is done as a vaudeville, but in the middle of it turns into us going back into their past. Here it is.

[26:31] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you and good evening. Glad to see you. Ladies and gentlemen, presenting for your pleasure, The Legendary Meisner Brothers. Addison Meisner, legendary architect. Wilson Meisner, legendary wit, raconteur, playwright, fight manager, screenwriter, restaurateur. You're too kind. Con artist, drug addict, alcoholic. All right, that's enough. I knew I could have gotten a hobby.

[26:55] Robert W. Schneider: Now, I know what you're thinking, madam, sitting there furiously flipping through your program. Meisner, Meisner. The name doesn't ring a bell, but the faces are also unfamiliar. Ah, yes, you're thinking if you're so legendary, how come I've never heard of you? A question we've been asking ourselves for a very long time. Ever since we died. Did you have to bring that up? Get the bad news over with first. We died along with our legend, and so we've come back to set the record straight.

[27:22] Robert W. Schneider: To polish our tarnished memory and spin a good yarn as well. This is the story of two siblings. You know, Mama always likes you best. And with good reason. And it took its toll. But we get ahead of ourselves. Don't put the cart before the horse. Unless you just want to piss off the horse. As someone very wise once said, two wrongs don't make a right. The squeaky wheel always gets the grease. And many other annoying cliches that most of us have forgotten. Which brings us back to us. And not a moment too soon.

[27:51] Robert W. Schneider: Did you ever have your life passed before your eyes? No. How about somebody else's? Enjoy the ride, and if you see any hidden messages, please keep them to yourselves. We're going to sing and dance our way right into your hearts. Not bad for a couple of dead guys. On my left. On my right. Is a prince. Is a jewel. Never arrogant or cruel. Never dollop and down. He has heft. He has height. But he's deft. And he's witty. Not a morsel of self-pity. Always boosting your morale. He's a gent in a way that you'll follow. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent. He's a gent.

[29:10] ♪ Musical number: "Just a Couple of Wise Guys" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[30:26] Richard Kind: How do you think it's going?

[30:27] Unknown speaker: Well, no one's walking out yet.

[30:29] Unknown speaker: A few of them are walking in.

[30:31] Unknown speaker: Hello!

[30:32] Unknown speaker: That's good.

[30:33] Unknown speaker: It's excellent.

[30:34] Unknown speaker: Because we need an audience.

[30:35] Unknown speaker: Oh, some acts you can't do without an audience.

[30:38] Unknown speaker: Uh-oh.

[30:39] Unknown speaker: What's the matter?

[30:40] Unknown speaker: Don't look now, brother, but I think we're losing one.

[30:42] Unknown speaker: The mouth breather on the aisle?

[30:43] Unknown speaker: Mm.

[30:44] Unknown speaker: Who bears an uncanny resemblance to Calvin Coolidge.

[30:47] Unknown speaker: Before or after he died?

[30:50] Unknown speaker: Nothing like coming to the theater to catch up on your rent.

[30:55] Unknown speaker: Please don't think he means you, sir.

[30:56] Unknown speaker: No, no.

[30:57] Unknown speaker: He does mean you.

[30:58] Unknown speaker: But please don't think it.

[31:00] Unknown speaker: Just a couple of wise guys, from a little dumb town.

[31:06] Unknown speaker: Plenty of fun, if you like sun.

[31:08] Unknown speaker: Just a couple of wise guys, who never seem to settle down.

[31:13] Unknown speaker: How can you settle down until you can settle up?

[31:15] Unknown speaker: A couple of ghosts, death threats, shatters.

[31:20] Unknown speaker: Or as some would say, bugs.

[31:46] Unknown speaker: Whoa!

[31:52] Unknown speaker: Just a couple of jokers, with a quiff and a smile.

[32:01] Unknown speaker: Just a couple of rip-tokers, ego-strokers.

[32:06] Unknown speaker: With a measure of style, a pair of pixie boys.

[32:11] Unknown speaker: Who made a noise, but never came home with a prize.

[32:15] Unknown speaker: Just a couple of ice skaters, bad gators.

[32:20] Unknown speaker: Hook-baiters, stage-dance-staters.

[32:24] Unknown speaker: Just a couple of guys, dragging on.

[32:36] Unknown speaker: Well, well, well.

[32:50] Unknown speaker: They loved it.

[32:53] Unknown speaker: We're a hit.

[32:55] Unknown speaker: So, shall we give them the whole story?

[32:58] Unknown speaker: Absolutely.

[32:59] Unknown speaker: Where shall we start?

[33:00] Unknown speaker: Wilson, Addison.

[33:02] Unknown speaker: Where else?

[33:04] Unknown speaker: I love that song.

[33:10] Unknown speaker: The actors also felt unhappy with this flashback.

[33:14] Unknown speaker: And soon, the harmonious community seemed anything but.

[33:17] Unknown speaker: The actors were like, I don't want any more changes.

[33:19] Unknown speaker: The directors sided with the actors.

[33:21] Unknown speaker: And the producers wanted to keep their stars happy.

[33:23] Unknown speaker: So, the show Mendes was creating was pretty much the show audiences were going to see.

[33:28] Unknown speaker: By the end of the workshop, it seemed like no one was interested anymore.

[33:32] Unknown speaker: It just was not happy.

[33:33] Unknown speaker: Sam Mendes went off to direct more films.

[33:35] Unknown speaker: Scott Rudin went to go involve himself in other projects.

[33:39] Unknown speaker: Nathan Lane went off to the producers.

[33:41] Unknown speaker: Victor Garber went off to television.

[33:42] Unknown speaker: And Weidman and Sondheim were left clutching the remains of what was once Wise Guys.

[33:47] Unknown speaker: Well, they were not deterred, much like the Meisners.

[33:50] Unknown speaker: Who else could bring this story to life?

[33:52] Unknown speaker: Well, what if, just what if, Sondheim could revive a collaboration that had been dormant for 20 years with one of his best friends.

[34:01] Unknown speaker: This friend had turned him down a lot in the past 20 years.

[34:04] Unknown speaker: But maybe, just maybe, he could convince him to work again.

[34:08] Unknown speaker: That friend, Hal Prince.

[34:11] Unknown speaker: There was no greater showman in musicals than Hal Prince.

[34:14] Unknown speaker: 21 Tony Awards.

[34:15] Unknown speaker: He produced West Side Story, Fiorello, Fiddler on the Roof, and directed Cabaret, Company, Folly, Sweeney Todd, Evita, and many others.

[34:24] Unknown speaker: His relationship with Sondheim in the 70s was the guaranteed hottest collaboration in town.

[34:29] Unknown speaker: Critics fawned.

[34:30] Unknown speaker: Audiences were cool, but the intellectuals loved it.

[34:33] Unknown speaker: And Sondheim and Prince were a match made in musical heaven.

[34:36] Unknown speaker: And that is until Merrily We Roll Along in 1981.

[34:40] Unknown speaker: You can watch the great documentary The Best Worst Thing That Ever Could Have Happened to see what went on.

[34:45] Unknown speaker: But it was a Sondheim-Prince failure, their first together.

[34:49] Unknown speaker: It was all anyone could talk about, and just about everyone laid the blame at Hal Prince's doorstep, including Hal Prince.

[34:56] Unknown speaker: Sondheim and Prince decided amicably that they would not work together again, so both could be challenged by new collaborators.

[35:02] Unknown speaker: Sondheim secured James Lapine, and they journeyed on to the Pulitzer Prize-winning Sunday in the Park with George and Into the Woods.

[35:08] Unknown speaker: Prince staged The Phantom of the Opera, which became an international hit, and a massive, beautiful revival of Showboat.

[35:15] Unknown speaker: They were juiced up again.

[35:16] Unknown speaker: Maybe, just maybe, they could rekindle their working relationship with a fresh sense.

[35:21] Unknown speaker: Sondheim had pitched the idea to Prince a few years earlier, and Prince said it should be done like the movie Tucker, The Man and His Dream, directed by Francis Ford Coppola, a man who fails but is never defeated, just like America.

[35:34] Unknown speaker: He saw it not as Sam Mendes did, dark and small in scope, but epic and buoyant, just like America.

[35:41] Unknown speaker: Prince's suggestions were very different than Mendes.

[35:44] Unknown speaker: Get rid of the vaudeville framework, it does nothing.

[35:47] Unknown speaker: Sondheim and Weidman wanted them, so a compromise.

[35:49] Unknown speaker: The show would be framed by vaudeville, but that was it.

[35:52] Unknown speaker: Sondheim later said this made the show straightforward, without vaudeville numbers interrupting the action, so a little bit predictable.

[35:59] Unknown speaker: Also, Hal Prince's big suggestion is this is a show about America.

[36:03] Unknown speaker: Where's the sex?

[36:05] Unknown speaker: Besides the insinuations of incest, where was the sex?

[36:08] Unknown speaker: The straight sex.

[36:09] Unknown speaker: Hal Prince wanted a romance.

[36:11] Unknown speaker: So, remember Nellie the Pig?

[36:13] Unknown speaker: Well, she was brought into the show.

[36:15] Unknown speaker: She would be a love interest for Wilson, and an accomplice.

[36:18] Unknown speaker: Finally, some good old-fashioned heterosexual American romance, because if there's one thing Broadway audiences love, it's straight romance.

[36:26] Unknown speaker: Plus, it needed a new title.

[36:28] Unknown speaker: Wise Guys was poison in the industry, so Bounce was born.

[36:32] Unknown speaker: I do love when a show has a bad reading or workshop, and they're like, let's just change the title and hope nobody remembers.

[36:37] Unknown speaker: Who are you fooling, you naughty writers?

[36:39] Unknown speaker: We remember.

[36:40] Unknown speaker: The team felt energized and planned for it to try out at the Goodman Theatre in Chicago, then take it to Broadway for the 2001-2002 season.

[36:49] Unknown speaker: After 20 years, a new Stephen Sondheim Hal Prince musical would be unstoppable.

[36:55] Unknown speaker: Well, except for one person.

[36:58] Unknown speaker: Scott Rudin.

[36:59] Unknown speaker: Yes, good old Scott Rudin, who didn't understand why the Goodman would be producing a property that was his.

[37:06] Unknown speaker: So he sent cease and desist letters, and Hal Prince and the Goodman were like, fuck this, we're out.

[37:12] Unknown speaker: Well, the writers, Sondheim and Weidman, didn't take this too kindly, and they sued Scott Rudin for $5 million in damages, and Scott Rudin countersued for $8 million in damages.

[37:24] Unknown speaker: And eventually, they settled out of court with the rights going back to Sondheim and Weidman, and Rudin would get his money back from the workshop if the show was commercially produced.

[37:35] Unknown speaker: Communication is key.

[37:37] Unknown speaker: Scott Rudin, as you know, was canceled a few years ago, but now is slowly making his return back to Broadway, and one of my favorite stories about him was, I know a friend who was interviewed for his personal assistant, and they said, so, you know, are you okay with things being thrown at you?

[37:49] Unknown speaker: And the person said, well, absolutely, I'm very good at multitasking and doing things on a rush, and they said, no, no, no, are you okay with having things thrown at you?

[38:03] Unknown speaker: Welcome back, Scott Rudin.

[38:04] Unknown speaker: The plan would now be that Bounce would try out at the Goodman Theatre in Chicago in the summer of 2003, and casting was underway.

[38:12] Unknown speaker: When the last Sondheim Prince musical came out 20 years earlier, everyone and their mother wanted to be a part of it, so Prince and his casting director, Mark Simon, dreamed big and assumed they had the pick of the litter.

[38:24] Unknown speaker: Well, I was friends with Mark Simon.

[38:27] Unknown speaker: Mark passed away somewhat recently.

[38:30] Unknown speaker: Maybe you might remember Mark if you were working in New York in the 90s and the 2000s.

[38:34] Unknown speaker: Mark was a tiny, tiny little man.

[38:36] Unknown speaker: I loved him dearly.

[38:37] Unknown speaker: He was actually in my wedding party, and he always had one cigarette in one hand and another one about to light up in the other.

[38:44] Unknown speaker: Mark, I have so many stories about Mark, so I'm going to tell you a couple just to honor his legacy.

[38:48] Unknown speaker: One of my favorite stories about Mark was he was kicked out of a hospital because he kept smuggling cigarettes in after having a quadruple bypass, which was amazing.

[38:58] Unknown speaker: He ate the worst food imaginable, but he was also very picky.

[39:03] Unknown speaker: We went to a restaurant out in L.A. once, and he looked at the waitress, and he goes, How's your turkey?

[39:10] Unknown speaker: And she said, Oh, it's good.

[39:11] Unknown speaker: And she goes, Would you like a sample?

[39:12] Unknown speaker: He goes, Yes.

[39:13] Unknown speaker: So she went out, she brought him a thing of turkey.

[39:15] Unknown speaker: He goes, Mmm, how's your roast beef?

[39:18] Unknown speaker: She said, Good.

[39:19] Unknown speaker: He goes, Can I have a sample?

[39:20] Unknown speaker: She brought him a sample.

[39:22] Unknown speaker: Finally, he said, How's your chopped liver?

[39:24] Unknown speaker: And I had to stop him.

[39:25] Unknown speaker: I was like, Mark, you can't keep getting free food from these people.

[39:28] Unknown speaker: He tried this again.

[39:29] Unknown speaker: We went to a Baskin-Robbins, and he was like, Ooh, what's that flavor?

[39:33] Unknown speaker: They said, Oh, this is Death by Chocolate.

[39:35] Unknown speaker: Mmm, may I sample it?

[39:36] Unknown speaker: He sampled it.

[39:37] Unknown speaker: What's that one?

[39:38] Unknown speaker: That's peachy.

[39:39] Unknown speaker: Ooh, let me try peachy.

[39:41] Unknown speaker: He sampled it.

[39:42] Unknown speaker: He sampled, I'm not joking, 20 flavors at Baskin-Robbins.

[39:45] Unknown speaker: And finally, I was like, Mark, you need to pick something.

[39:48] Unknown speaker: And he goes, Okay, mmm, I'll have vanilla.

[39:53] Unknown speaker: So anyway, Mark was one of my favorite people, but he had worked for Hal Prince for a long time.

[39:57] Unknown speaker: And when he passed, he left me his paperwork for all of his projects and stuff.

[40:02] Unknown speaker: And that was what I was referring to earlier about things that people are not aware of.

[40:06] Unknown speaker: So I was looking at some of the original idea lists with thoughts and comments about who they were going after and who they wanted to be in the show.

[40:14] Unknown speaker: And they aimed really big for Wilson Meisner, the con man raconteur.

[40:17] Unknown speaker: They wanted Kevin Spacey or Kevin Kline or Woody Harrelson.

[40:21] Unknown speaker: Any one of them will do.

[40:22] Unknown speaker: For Addison, either John C. Reilly, Bill Murray, or Jason Alexander.

[40:27] Unknown speaker: The list for Mama, who would show up in the show, they wanted somebody that had a name many years ago.

[40:34] Unknown speaker: They thought there would be some novelty in that.

[40:36] Unknown speaker: So they looked at Hayley Mills, Jane Powell, Carol Shelley, Ann Morrison, Terry Ralston, Barbara Barry, Constance Towers, Marnie Nixon.

[40:44] Unknown speaker: And in the notes, Stephen Sondheim said, Absolutely not.

[40:47] Unknown speaker: So I wonder what happened there.

[40:48] Unknown speaker: And Anita Gillette.

[40:50] Unknown speaker: But their top choice was Florence Henderson from the Brady Bunch.

[40:55] Unknown speaker: And in the letters, what's kind of cool is how Prince wrote a letter to Florence Henderson being like, Hey, not only do I want you for this, but if you want, I know we're flying to New York around the same time.

[41:06] Unknown speaker: Come be on my private jet.

[41:07] Unknown speaker: And then when she turned the roll down, he was still like, Oh, one day I still hope we can work together.

[41:11] Unknown speaker: Still come on my private jet.

[41:13] Unknown speaker: One of the cool things I learned about how Prince and all these letters is how polite he was.

[41:18] Unknown speaker: He would reach out to every actor and say, I would love to use you.

[41:23] Unknown speaker: Or if they weren't, if he wasn't able to use them, he wrote a really sweet letter saying like, Hey, listen, I'm so sorry.

[41:29] Unknown speaker: I can't use you.

[41:30] Unknown speaker: It's no diminishment of your talent.

[41:31] Unknown speaker: It's just not the right show for you.

[41:32] Unknown speaker: It's really classy.

[41:33] Unknown speaker: I mean, like, I know he was a classy guy.

[41:35] Unknown speaker: I had the opportunity to meet him and I was just like, Wow, he's so sweet.

[41:38] Unknown speaker: But very impressed.

[41:40] Unknown speaker: Like, very, very impressed.

[41:42] Unknown speaker: So anyway, yeah, I don't know how Prince needs my validation.

[41:45] Unknown speaker: But you know what?

[41:46] Unknown speaker: How Prince needs a theater named after him.

[41:48] Unknown speaker: I mean, why do we not have a How Prince theater?

[41:50] Unknown speaker: Why do they not rename the Majestic after How Prince?

[41:52] Unknown speaker: There are some people who have theaters named after them that I'm still like, how do you have a theater named after you?

[41:57] Unknown speaker: No name shall be mentioned.

[42:00] Unknown speaker: How Prince has 21 Tony Awards.

[42:02] Unknown speaker: There's somebody with a theater right now that I don't know.

[42:04] Unknown speaker: I can't tell you what Broadway shows they did.

[42:06] Unknown speaker: But anyway, that's this topic for another day.

[42:09] Unknown speaker: For Nellie, the woman who would float in and out of Wilson's life, the role Prince demanded be included.

[42:14] Unknown speaker: They looked at Donna Murphy, Faith Prince, Marin Mazzie, but everyone's first choice was Christine Ebersole.

[42:22] Unknown speaker: Opening in the 2003-2004 Broadway season would be Kevin Spacey, Bill Murray, Florence Henderson and Christine Ebersole in a new Stephen Sondheim musical directed by How Prince.

[42:35] Unknown speaker: Can you imagine?

[42:36] Unknown speaker: Yes, please keep imagining because Sondheim Prince in 2003 was very different than the Sondheim Prince of 1981.

[42:41] Unknown speaker: They were no longer the flavors of the day.

[42:46] Unknown speaker: They were statesmen, but their productivity in the last 20 years was somewhat spotty.

[42:51] Unknown speaker: Sondheim had Sunday and Into the Woods, but then there was Passion and really nothing else.

[42:54] Unknown speaker: Prince had Phantom and Showboat, but also there was a lot of misfires in there.

[42:58] Unknown speaker: Nobody was as interested as they thought they were going to be, including Christine Ebersole who turned the role down saying it was not a good enough part to which How Prince wrote the following letter to her.

[43:12] Unknown speaker: October 11th, 2002.

[43:14] Unknown speaker: Dear Christine, you're wrong and I can't resist telling you.

[43:19] Unknown speaker: As far as I'm concerned, Nellie the Pig is one of the best roles to come along for musical theater ladies in years.

[43:25] Unknown speaker: Were Ethel Merman alive, I would have no difficulty convincing her, but you are and I'm having some.

[43:32] Unknown speaker: However, I assume you realize that I'm not a huckster and maybe I know what I'm talking about.

[43:36] Unknown speaker: Yours, How Prince.

[43:39] Unknown speaker: How cool is that?

[43:42] Unknown speaker: Not cool for Miss Ebersole.

[43:43] Unknown speaker: She actually probably made the right decision.

[43:46] Robert W. Schneider: The decision was made that the stars in Bounce would be Sondheim and Prince. For Wilson, they went with stalwart leading man Howard McGillin, Mama would be MGM star Jane Powell, Michelle Paulk would be Nellie, and as Addison, an unconventional choice. How Prince was watching TV one day, specifically Spin City, because his son-in-law was on it, and he was particularly struck by an actor who embodied what he was looking for in Addison. He had done tons of film and television, but he wasn't a household name, nor was he really a singer per se, or a stage person per se. But that never stopped Sondheim and Prince before. That actor's name was Richard Kind. Richard had to audition, and the audition was a day of misses for him.

He got the days wrong and the hours wrong, and he was cycling around New York City when he got a call. Where are you for the Bounce audition? They're all waiting in Hal's office. Sweaty and disheveled, he ran over to Rockefeller Plaza, barged into the audition, belted out Jerry Herman's "Look Over There," and left thinking he lost the gig. He didn't. In fact, Sondheim felt even more energized after getting to meet Richard Kind. Here's Richard Kind talking about that experience.

[45:04] Richard Kind: My dream, I've told this story before, so if it sounds like it's rehearsed, it sort of is because it's a good story, and I've told it I can't tell you how many times. My dream when I was a kid was three things. Usually, you're a kid, you're lying in bed, you want to play center field for the Yankees or be in a rock band, be Mick Jagger. I wanted to be in a Stanley Kubrick movie, a Woody Allen movie, and be in an original Sondheim Prince musical. That's what I was raised in. That was my dream. The Stephen Sondheim play, I'm not going to be in a Stephen Sondheim musical, an original musical. I sing, but not that well, but I wanted to audition. Hal calls up my agent and says, I'm very well aware of Richard Kind.

My son-in-law is in a TV show with him, Spin City. I love him very much. He's very funny on the show, but he's not right for the part. Well, two things. Number one, Hal Prince knows that I exist. That in itself, I'm okay. But my manager had the foresight to say, look, you don't give him the part, you don't give him the part, but let him go in the room. So I get the audition. I don't know all of this, that I've been denied the audition, but I go in and I've worked pretty hard. I sang a Jerry Herman song because I know that they don't like each other, Herman and Sondheim, especially after the La Cage aux Folles thing where he said, finally you reward somebody who can write melodies. What a horrible thing to say. I know that they don't like each other, but sometimes I just don't think. It's a song that I worked on.

[46:58] Richard Kind: What song was it? Look Over There. It's a beautiful song. I've worked on it before. It showed the tenderness of this guy and it's a nice ballad, so I sang it. When I say for a second, it didn't even occur to me that I'm singing a Jerry Herman song in front of Stephen Sondheim. It didn't matter. So anyway, then Hal comes up and we start doing the scene and I do the scene pretty well. So Hal comes up and he whispers in my ear and he starts giving me direction and it's great and I love it and I do it again and it's wonderful and I leave. The next day, I don't know whether I told this part well enough, but it really is beautiful. I'm in the back of a car with Hal Linden and we're going to play golf because Hal was doing Cabaret at the time.

I'm doing Tale of the Allergist's Wife and we're going to go play. It's a Friday and we're on our way to the golf course and I get a phone call. It says Hal Prince is on the line for me and I go, okay, and I say hello and he goes, uh, kid, kid, we're going to have a great time doing this. It'll be a lot of fun. I have great ideas. I'm fun to work with. We'll have a great time. Everything. I'm so happy. But he never said you've got the part. He never came out and said you've got the part and I don't think I was hired or my agent didn't tell me. So I really didn't know and it was a little bit of a time I didn't know. But that morning he's going, kid, kid, we'll have a great time. I'm a lot of fun to work with.

I have a great idea. Oh, and you'll be, you're great. You're great. Your reading was wonderful, blah, blah, blah. And I hang up and I turned to Hal Linden, which if I think about it is now, he's on Broadway, but his career is a little on the decline and he'd like to be in my shoes. And I just looked over and I started to cry and I said, I think I just got hired for an original Sondheim, Prince, Wyden play. I just started crying. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. I know. What a gift.

[49:17] Richard Kind: Oh my God. Oh my God. Now, a story about that is we were having the Zits probe. Oh, I've got so many. I got lots of stories about Bounce, which I know everybody wants to hear. So this will go on the record. We're doing the Zits probe and I have to go to the bathroom. At the same time, Stephen Sondheim is going to the men's room as well. This does not go where you think it is. And I said to him, I said, Stephen, I have to thank you so much because I don't sing any harmony in this show. And I can't, I have one note, the very last note on the title song as we end it, is a real harmonizing note that somehow I'm able to get. I don't know how, but I do. Otherwise, I cannot harmonize. I can sing. Sometimes I'm a little pitchy or you have to really teach me how to get there, even with Sondheim, who's tough, but I got there and I can do it.

And I rarely go off once I have it, but sometimes it takes me a while, but I cannot harmonize. Played Harold Hill in Music Man, couldn't harmonize until "There Was You." And it's not that I can't take a harmony part. If the person has the harmony part and I have the melody, I still go to his or her part. I can't do it. And I said, thank you so much. He goes, I can't harmonize either. I go, what? He goes, yeah, I can't harmonize. I write this stuff, but I can't harmonize. I went, wow. So who knew that? And he sings some of his own songs, but he can't harmonize. So he said, or he could have been lying in the bathroom. But the silly thing was, is that when I was in high school and in the chorus, we'd go over, okay, here's the tenor line, blah, blah, blah.

And they'd play it out for me and everybody would sing it. And then once we all started going into four, I would just go to the melody. That's just all I would do. And I know this sounds crazy, but in my head, I didn't understand chords. Nobody told me. A chord is made up of three or four notes, and this is one of the lines. So it wasn't until much, much later in my life that I put two and two together and said, oh, that's what harmony is. So from the get-go, I didn't understand it. And I was curious if I could have done it back then. If my ear, if I had been trained, could I have done it? But I don't know. Who knows? Okay. I'm the same way. I understand.

[52:03] Robert W. Schneider: So what was it like doing Bounce when it went on to Chicago and DC?

[52:16] Richard Kind: We did the Goodman first. Okay. I'll tell you a couple of things about Bounce. I guess it was cursed from the get-go because of Rudin and this and that. It goes way back to Irving Berlin, I think, or Cole Porter. I think it was Irving Berlin wanted to do a story about the Meisners because he knew them personally. And it is a fascinating story. I loved it. All Stephen worried about, it seemed, was the last number with the market falling apart with the real estate boom and then the crash. Okay, maybe it needed work. I'm watching it from on stage, so I can't see it. But there were other issues, and they should have been dealt with. Oh, that's my phone, I think. Okay, I can't take it. I'm here. Is that you? It's not us. If you need to take it, you can take it.

[53:10] Richard Kind: I don't want to take it. I'm telling stories. I'm talking about me. So one thing after I got the role, I was at Hal's Christmas party, and Sondheim was there, and I had a beard. It was Christmas time. So I went up to him, and I said, do you know who I am? And he goes, yes, you're Richard Kind, and the beard goes. So that was the first thing he said. That's the first thing I ever said to him. The second thing that I said to him was, and I'm really honest about this, and I had practiced it. I said, we're going to have to work as peers, and I promise you, I will treat you with respect, and I will talk to you as a human being. But before we start, I just have to say, I can't believe what you do.

I just am in awe of everything, and I've had the opportunity to talk to you a couple of times. I've been at some parties. I was at Sandy and Daisy's wedding. I've been in the room with you, and I just am worried that spittle will go down the side of my mouth because I won't find the words to express it, and I'll be embarrassed at the words that I've chosen. And he said the most wonderful reply. He said, I am not my songs. I'm just a nice Jewish boy from the Upper West Side. So it was humble as well as celebrating just how good he knew he was. And I will tell you, he can be very funny, but there's a lot of times where he's not as funny as he thinks he is, but his lyrics are always the funniest that they are. They're the greatest, and it's shocking.

[55:16] Robert W. Schneider: Do you remember the first Sondheim show you ever saw or listened to?

[55:20] Richard Kind: Yeah, Company. I was a kid. It must have been like ninth grade. It could have been earlier, but I used to take the train in from Trenton, New Jersey, which I lived in Yardley, and my mom would drop me off in the morning. I would go into New York. I would see a Broadway play.

[55:37] Robert W. Schneider: By yourself?

[55:38] Richard Kind: Oh, by myself. Oh my God. And then I would get a hot dog at Nathan's, one or two hot dogs and fries, and then I'd go to the drama bookshelf. Then I'd go to Sam Goody, and then I would go and see a show at night. And I clearly remember seeing the first time I saw the poster of Company in the purple with the word Company, and I thought, who would want to see a show about an industry, about a company? That was just my first thing, is that I saw industry. I didn't think of Company. And then you follow the things, and I didn't even know what it was about, but it's Sondheim, it's Broadway, it was a big hit, it's well-reviewed, so I go and see it. And I'm a kid, and I don't know about marriage, and I don't even know about men and women.

And I saw it, and I didn't know what the hell was going on, and all I remember was the karate flip over the couch. Okay, I remember that. I remember the set quite, quite well. And I remember "Ladies Who Lunch" because she was standing up there. But I didn't know what the hell was going on, and that's the honest to God's truth. I didn't know. And at that age, having to listen to everybody, but I don't really want to tell you about the weddings, it's a wedding, and I wasn't used to listening that hard, so I didn't know what was going on, but that was the first Sondheim thing.

[57:16] Robert W. Schneider: This show went into rehearsals with a Hal Prince concept. The show was a buoyant road movie filled with broad performances, two-dimensional sets, exotic locales, and old-school charm. When the Meisner's home was repossessed, an actor pulled up a miniature house and walked off with it. To show the time traveling in Addison's trip, a simple teeter-totter gangplank was put into play. There was even a discussion of having a big balloon on stage to burst to show the housing bubble breaking. Then a diorama of houses built with stock certificates that would crash. First thing Prince asked for, though, was a new opening number, eschewing the vaudeville concept, but something about the optimism of these two men who got themselves up, dusted themselves off, and started all over again.

The number was so strong, it became the title of the show. Here's the opening number. Wilson says, as everything went, you know, what did you do with yourself? I tried to make things right, pay people back. Mostly I just got sued. How about you? Wilson says, I remember thinking that I owed myself a drink, and I remember having one, and then another one, and that's about all I can remember.

[58:22] Robert W. Schneider: We've come a long way. We've been through a lot. We've learned how to bounce.

[58:29] Robert W. Schneider: As Papa would say, if you're hot then you're not. You better learn to bounce.

[58:35] Robert W. Schneider: If something goes wrong, that's all right. Bounce all along, just travel light.

[58:41] Robert W. Schneider: You go off the track, don't look back. That's the thing that counts.

[58:47] Robert W. Schneider: You have a few bumps, you make a few gaps. You learn how to bounce.

[58:53] Robert W. Schneider: You take a few lumps, you have a few laughs. And all the while you bounce.

[58:59] Robert W. Schneider: Don't dwell on the times that you fail. Remember the times when you sailed.

[59:05] Robert W. Schneider: Find a new road, forge a new road, forge a new trail.

[59:12] Robert W. Schneider: Bounce. And Wilson says, you don't suppose this really is heaven, do you?

[59:17] Robert W. Schneider: Guys like you go to heaven, really? Who has to go to hell? Point taken.

[59:23] Robert W. Schneider: Although if this isn't heaven, then where the hell are we? Yeah? And where do we go next?

[59:30] Robert W. Schneider: No cause for concern. We'll get by. Live and learn. All right then. Die.

[59:36] Robert W. Schneider: So what if we're dead? Gotta look ahead. How true, how true.

[59:42] Robert W. Schneider: The road may get rough. Who knows in advance? Be ready to bounce.

[59:46] Robert W. Schneider: You needn't have bridges, just resistance. You do it enough. You look for the chance.

[59:51] Robert W. Schneider: You see it and you pounce when you're feeling spent. We invent, we birth, we live.

[59:55] Robert W. Schneider: We're both trans and we... I'm sorry. Go on.

[59:57] Robert W. Schneider: With Wilson's friends and with Scott. We've made a few friends for a while.

[1:00:03] Robert W. Schneider: From all we've been through. From dealing with you. I've learned how to...

[1:00:07] Robert W. Schneider: God damn it, Willie. Could you just once?

[1:00:10] Robert W. Schneider: The time up in North. Gold up to our ears. We lost every ounce.

[1:00:14] Robert W. Schneider: Come on now, admit it was fun. It was shit. Well then we get home. And who disappears?

[1:00:19] Robert W. Schneider: I had to learn to bounce when we were a team. No, you were a team.

[1:00:22] Robert W. Schneider: The horse that we doped. That you doped.

[1:00:25] Robert W. Schneider: Just trying to get further your career. When you were finished helping, I didn't have a career.

[1:00:32] Robert W. Schneider: It's the thought that counts. No, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right.

[1:00:35] Robert W. Schneider: On my left. On my left. On my left. On my right is a fountain of talents.

[1:00:45] Robert W. Schneider: Is a man who's lost his balance. Though he does let you down.

[1:00:50] Robert W. Schneider: If he's sly, if he's quaint, he's a guy to rely on.

[1:00:53] Robert W. Schneider: He's a shoulder you can cry on when he isn't.

[1:00:55] Robert W. Schneider: Skipping town, skipping town. You're stuck in a jam. You're stuck in a jam.

[1:01:00] Robert W. Schneider: Your brother says scram. You pick up and scram.

[1:01:03] Robert W. Schneider: Scream, yeah. As in scram. I'm getting married. I'll get back to you.

[1:01:08] Robert W. Schneider: The brother who cries. Keep telling you lies. You better goddamn well know how to goddamn.

[1:01:14] Robert W. Schneider: Exactly my point. I mean, here we are. Team or not.

[1:01:19] Robert W. Schneider: How bizarre. How far we've got.

[1:01:22] Robert W. Schneider: Together again. Two old men.

[1:01:25] Robert W. Schneider: Settling our accounts. You're right and when you're right.

[1:01:27] Robert W. Schneider: Which isn't what the problem was mine. All I did was whine.

[1:01:31] Robert W. Schneider: You did sort of flounce. With justification, just frustration.

[1:01:34] Robert W. Schneider: Though I was a fink. I drove you to drink.

[1:01:37] Robert W. Schneider: What saved us was our bounds. That's how you survive.

[1:01:39] Robert W. Schneider: You took my clothes, whole thing alive.

[1:01:41] Robert W. Schneider: With someone to kill, you were hanged.

[1:01:44] Robert W. Schneider: You not only live, you expand.

[1:01:47] Robert W. Schneider: You learn to adjust.

[1:01:51] Robert W. Schneider: You do tomorrow's accounts.

[1:01:58] Robert W. Schneider: Also, a beautiful duet was written to showcase the romance Prince so desperately wanted between Wilson and Nellie.

[1:02:06] Robert W. Schneider: You are the best thing that ever has happened to me, folks.

[1:02:11] Robert W. Schneider: You are.

[1:02:13] Robert W. Schneider: You are the best thing that ever could happen to me.

[1:02:18] Robert W. Schneider: You are.

[1:02:20] Robert W. Schneider: To think I'd meet someone.

[1:02:23] Robert W. Schneider: Who would surprise me.

[1:02:26] Robert W. Schneider: And size me up without putting me down.

[1:02:31] Robert W. Schneider: Ain't this a time.

[1:02:33] Robert W. Schneider: I just may be the best thing that has happened to you.

[1:02:38] Robert W. Schneider: Ever.

[1:02:40] Robert W. Schneider: And have you had this much happiness happen to you?

[1:02:45] Robert W. Schneider: Ever.

[1:02:48] Robert W. Schneider: I can't believe my luck.

[1:02:51] Robert W. Schneider: And all I can do.

[1:02:54] Robert W. Schneider: Is be the best thing that's happened to you.

[1:02:59] Robert W. Schneider: The phone rings. Ring!

[1:03:01] Robert W. Schneider: Wilson reaches for it.

[1:03:03] Robert W. Schneider: Nellie puts her hand on top of his.

[1:03:05] Robert W. Schneider: If it's bad news, we don't want it.

[1:03:07] Robert W. Schneider: If it's good news, we don't need it.

[1:03:09] Robert W. Schneider: Absolutely. Ring!

[1:03:13] Robert W. Schneider: Ring!

[1:03:15] Robert W. Schneider: They said one day I'd fall.

[1:03:18] Robert W. Schneider: I never thought it.

[1:03:21] Robert W. Schneider: I never thought it would happen to me.

[1:03:26] Robert W. Schneider: See, we agree.

[1:03:28] Robert W. Schneider: I am the best thing that ever will happen to you.

[1:03:33] Robert W. Schneider: Ring!

[1:03:34] Robert W. Schneider: Just me.

[1:03:35] Robert W. Schneider: Ring!

[1:03:36] Robert W. Schneider: I want to know I'm the best thing that's happened to you.

[1:03:39] Robert W. Schneider: Ring!

[1:03:40] Robert W. Schneider: Just me.

[1:03:42] Robert W. Schneider: If I were sure of the ring.

[1:03:45] Robert W. Schneider: That might even be.

[1:03:47] Robert W. Schneider: Ring!

[1:03:49] Robert W. Schneider: The best thing of all that could happen to me.

[1:03:53] Robert W. Schneider: Ring!

[1:03:56] Robert W. Schneider: What's next?

[1:03:57] Robert W. Schneider: Ring!

[1:03:58] Robert W. Schneider: Who cares?

[1:04:00] Robert W. Schneider: Let's see.

[1:04:01] Robert W. Schneider: Ring!

[1:04:03] Robert W. Schneider: You might have heard this song before if you listened to one of Barbra Streisand's more recent albums.

[1:04:08] Robert W. Schneider: She sings it as a duet with Alec Baldwin.

[1:04:11] Robert W. Schneider: And one of the lines is, I always fought it, meaning like I resisted it.

[1:04:17] Robert W. Schneider: It literally sounds like she's saying I always farted.

[1:04:20] Robert W. Schneider: And I'm so sorry.

[1:04:21] Robert W. Schneider: You can say what you want about Barbra Streisand.

[1:04:22] Robert W. Schneider: He has the great voice. Whatever.

[1:04:24] Robert W. Schneider: I always farted.

[1:04:25] Robert W. Schneider: I'm like, how did nobody say, hey, Barbra, can we maybe re-record this?

[1:04:29] Robert W. Schneider: Or maybe she was like, maybe that's what she wanted to say.

[1:04:31] Robert W. Schneider: Who knows? Good for Barbra.

[1:04:33] Robert W. Schneider: Anyway, the best song of the show, everyone seemed to agree, though, was a song called Talent.

[1:04:38] Robert W. Schneider: That Hollis sings to Addison on their first meeting, describing who he is and what his place in life is.

[1:04:46] Robert W. Schneider: For this production, Michael C. Hall was off being a TV star, so they needed somebody else to play Hollis.

[1:04:52] Robert W. Schneider: And there emerged a new young talent that they loved, as did everybody, named Gavin Creel.

[1:05:02] Robert W. Schneider: When I was a tyke, I said what I like is art.

[1:05:07] Robert W. Schneider: I know I'm a boy, but what I enjoy is art.

[1:05:11] Robert W. Schneider: Looking at paintings, going to plays, music and books informing my days, filling my mind, flooding my heart with art.

[1:05:21] Robert W. Schneider: I had this dream of becoming an artist, a painter, a poet, who knows?

[1:05:26] Robert W. Schneider: I had a nice little talent for drawing and a natural feeling for prose.

[1:05:31] Robert W. Schneider: I even began to compose.

[1:05:34] Robert W. Schneider: So many talents, wasn't I blessed?

[1:05:38] Robert W. Schneider: All of them good, a few of them better, none of them best.

[1:05:43] Robert W. Schneider: Just enough talent to know that I hadn't the talent.

[1:05:48] Robert W. Schneider: So I put my dream and my self-esteem to rest.

[1:05:56] Robert W. Schneider: That must have been difficult.

[1:05:59] Robert W. Schneider: Yes, but it didn't matter.

[1:06:02] Robert W. Schneider: I merely had to find out what I was meant to be.

[1:06:06] Robert W. Schneider: I couldn't decide, then one day I spied Palm Beach.

[1:06:10] Robert W. Schneider: A speck on the map, no more than a gap, Palm Beach.

[1:06:15] Robert W. Schneider: Jungle and seashore, muddy and raw, but in a flash I suddenly saw what it would take, what I could make, Palm Beach.

[1:06:24] Robert W. Schneider: I had this dream of a city of artists, their sigh by the Florida sea.

[1:06:29] Robert W. Schneider: A sort of world congregation of artists, all encouraged to set themselves free.

[1:06:34] Robert W. Schneider: I knew what I wanted to be.

[1:06:39] Robert W. Schneider: I'd be their host and supporter, the patron saint of the things that they write and compose and paint.

[1:06:44] Robert W. Schneider: I would wander among them with lavish praise as they carve their statues, construct their plays,

[1:06:49] Robert W. Schneider: design their buildings, recite their rhymes, making modern art fit for modern times.

[1:06:55] Robert W. Schneider: So many talents gathered en masse.

[1:06:59] Robert W. Schneider: Painters and poets, artists and dreamers, watered like grass.

[1:07:04] Robert W. Schneider: And if the talent I have is for nurturing talent,

[1:07:09] Robert W. Schneider: then succeed or fail, I will see they sail first class.

[1:07:20] Robert W. Schneider: And my father can go stick it up his ass.

[1:07:27] Robert W. Schneider: Well, the show opened in Chicago and the reviews, well, were not so good.

[1:07:32] Robert W. Schneider: The main issue was how Prince hadn't really figured out the right tone of the piece.

[1:07:37] Robert W. Schneider: For example, the first scene that they have is the dad dying and dad telling the kids, you know, go west and claim your fortune.

[1:07:46] Robert W. Schneider: In this production, dad was a cartoon blustery and two dimensional, but mama and the kids were not.

[1:07:53] Robert W. Schneider: So what world were we in?

[1:07:55] Robert W. Schneider: One critic called the show a sad case of dramaturgical chaos, which is a shame because the score was magnificent, they said.

[1:08:02] Robert W. Schneider: And a friend observed to Stephen Sondheim, quote, the problem is I don't know where the train is going and it makes too many stops.

[1:08:09] Robert W. Schneider: And that caused Sondheim to observe on their next stop in Washington, D.C., quote.

[1:08:15] Robert W. Schneider: And I thought that's a really smart remark.

[1:08:17] Robert W. Schneider: The way it was written and particularly the way it was performed in Chicago,

[1:08:20] Robert W. Schneider: you didn't know what kind of show you were in for because the father was played as a completely comic strip character.

[1:08:26] Robert W. Schneider: But the mother and boys were not.

[1:08:28] Robert W. Schneider: So you're off on the wrong foot already.

[1:08:30] Robert W. Schneider: Now it's all of a piece and it makes a huge difference.

[1:08:33] Robert W. Schneider: There's been a little rewriting of the scene and I cut about a quarter of the song.

[1:08:36] Robert W. Schneider: And I took out the silly jokes I had in there.

[1:08:38] Robert W. Schneider: Things like having the father say to Neuropathy when he meant opportunity because his mind is going that kind of stuff.

[1:08:43] Robert W. Schneider: It's all decoration.

[1:08:44] Robert W. Schneider: It's what George Kaufman said.

[1:08:46] Robert W. Schneider: Take out the improvements.

[1:08:47] Robert W. Schneider: Take out everything that isn't necessary.

[1:08:49] Robert W. Schneider: And that's what we did.

[1:08:50] Robert W. Schneider: And as far as I'm concerned, that makes more difference to the show than anything else we did.

[1:08:54] Robert W. Schneider: End quote.

[1:08:55] Robert W. Schneider: But that was just about all they could do, because as soon as a bounce opened in Chicago,

[1:09:00] Robert W. Schneider: Sondheim and Wieden were ready to sit down and begin fixing the show before it hit the Kennedy Center in October 21st.

[1:09:07] Robert W. Schneider: The biggest problem was how Prince bounced.

[1:09:10] Robert W. Schneider: He was not there.

[1:09:11] Robert W. Schneider: He was on vacation.

[1:09:12] Robert W. Schneider: He had other commitments.

[1:09:14] Robert W. Schneider: And the contract that they had with the Goodman did not allow for rehearsals after opening.

[1:09:19] Robert W. Schneider: So what audiences saw in Washington, D.C. in October was honestly not very different than what audiences had seen in Chicago.

[1:09:26] Robert W. Schneider: Same problems.

[1:09:28] Robert W. Schneider: And as it was Sondheim and Prince, the show was not just for D.C. critics, but for the whole world, it seemed.

[1:09:34] Robert W. Schneider: descended upon the Kennedy Center to give their assessment of the show.

[1:09:37] Robert W. Schneider: And it was not good.

[1:09:39] Robert W. Schneider: Flaccid.

[1:09:40] Robert W. Schneider: Frantic.

[1:09:41] Robert W. Schneider: Cheap were some of the words being bandied about.

[1:09:44] Robert W. Schneider: And it's interesting to note that the design by Eugene Lee was not one of Hal Prince's favorites,

[1:09:49] Robert W. Schneider: with Prince complaining that Eugene Lee's focus at the time was on a new musical called Wicked.

[1:09:54] Robert W. Schneider: So bounce kind of got shortchanged.

[1:09:56] Robert W. Schneider: Ben Brantley from the New York Times said the score was Sondheim the craftsman, not Sondheim the artist,

[1:10:03] Robert W. Schneider: which forced Sondheim to muse when he was asked by Mark Horowitz,

[1:10:06] Robert W. Schneider: between you and Hal and John, you have something over 100 years of experience.

[1:10:11] Robert W. Schneider: Why do you think it isn't easier?

[1:10:13] Robert W. Schneider: And Sondheim said, quote, I don't think it's about experience.

[1:10:16] Robert W. Schneider: I don't think it gets easier for anybody, whether you're a writer, novelist, painter, composer, whatever.

[1:10:21] Robert W. Schneider: If anything, it gets harder because you're so much more aware of the dangers.

[1:10:24] Robert W. Schneider: You're worried about repeating yourself.

[1:10:26] Robert W. Schneider: You're worried about your inventive powers deteriorating, which they do with age.

[1:10:30] Robert W. Schneider: You're worried about being out of touch with the zeitgeist.

[1:10:33] Robert W. Schneider: There are 64 reasons why it gets harder as you get older.

[1:10:36] Robert W. Schneider: Shaw was too arrogant to admit it, but his late work is not very good either.

[1:10:40] Robert W. Schneider: Verdi is an exception, but I don't think his late work is any better than his early work, but that's just me.

[1:10:45] Robert W. Schneider: There are rare, rare examples of people who really flower in their old age.

[1:10:49] Robert W. Schneider: Shaw and Verdi kept working right up until the end, but most people's output diminishes in quantity,

[1:10:54] Robert W. Schneider: and perhaps even always in quality.

[1:10:57] Robert W. Schneider: Certainly anything that relates to commercial art, anything like musical theater,

[1:11:01] Robert W. Schneider: where so much has to do with what else is going on in music and in theater,

[1:11:04] Robert W. Schneider: keeping up with the young folk is hard, and it's virtually impossible.

[1:11:08] Robert W. Schneider: Nothing's more embarrassing than Lenny trying to write rock en masse.

[1:11:11] Robert W. Schneider: Bert Sheveloff had a wonderful phrase, and I can't remember who he was describing.

[1:11:15] Robert W. Schneider: It may have been Lenny.

[1:11:16] Robert W. Schneider: He said, quote, he's Rip Van With It, and we're all in danger of that.

[1:11:20] Robert W. Schneider: That's one of the things that makes it harder the older you get,

[1:11:23] Robert W. Schneider: particularly if you're in commercial art.

[1:11:26] Robert W. Schneider: So, Al Prince didn't stay with the show after that.

[1:11:29] Robert W. Schneider: He thought the show was just fine.

[1:11:31] Robert W. Schneider: He had other shows to direct and phantoms to look after,

[1:11:34] Robert W. Schneider: and much like their last musical outing together,

[1:11:36] Robert W. Schneider: Sondheim and Prince's new work never really found its audience.

[1:11:39] Robert W. Schneider: Perhaps it was too cheery, too idealistic, and another director could strip that away.

[1:11:44] Robert W. Schneider: The closest that Bounce would come to Broadway would be on May 9th, 2004,

[1:11:48] Robert W. Schneider: when there was a reading of the show at the Majestic Theater with Hal Prince's cast.

[1:11:52] Robert W. Schneider: But Weidman and Sondheim were not deterred.

[1:11:55] Robert W. Schneider: Who could direct this show again?

[1:11:57] Robert W. Schneider: The team looked at Eric Schaefer of Signature Theater,

[1:12:00] Robert W. Schneider: but found his collaboration not challenging to them enough.

[1:12:02] Robert W. Schneider: He wouldn't say, that's bad, fix it.

[1:12:04] Robert W. Schneider: So they felt at a loss.

[1:12:06] Robert W. Schneider: Who was the new Hal Prince?

[1:12:07] Robert W. Schneider: Who was maybe better than Hal Prince?

[1:12:10] Robert W. Schneider: Well, how about the man who built a career,

[1:12:12] Robert W. Schneider: imitating Hal Prince to some extent?

[1:12:15] Robert W. Schneider: Enter John Doyle.

[1:12:17] Robert W. Schneider: In the mid-aughts, there was an interesting thing happening on Broadway.

[1:12:21] Robert W. Schneider: An influx of traditional revivals,

[1:12:23] Robert W. Schneider: and in the midst of those traditional revivals,

[1:12:25] Robert W. Schneider: was a new director on the scene.

[1:12:27] Robert W. Schneider: A revisionist revival director.

[1:12:29] Robert W. Schneider: One who was known for his actor-musician productions in England

[1:12:32] Robert W. Schneider: at his tiny theater, the Watermill.

[1:12:34] Robert W. Schneider: His name was John Doyle, and he was Scottish,

[1:12:36] Robert W. Schneider: and like all Scots, very practical.

[1:12:38] Robert W. Schneider: His theater couldn't afford a set designer.

[1:12:40] Robert W. Schneider: No worries, he would design the sets himself.

[1:12:42] Robert W. Schneider: No band? No problem.

[1:12:44] Robert W. Schneider: The actors would play the instruments, and play their characters.

[1:12:56] Robert W. Schneider: Patti LuPone as a tuba-wielding Mrs. Lovett. People went bananas over the Sweeney Todd.

[1:13:12] Robert W. Schneider: They play an instrument and they act and they sing at the same time.

[1:13:15] Robert W. Schneider: I've never seen anybody do this before. You must have all missed I Love My Wife.

[1:13:20] Robert W. Schneider: Soon, Doyle was like, I can keep going, and he tackled Company, which I have a story about.

[1:13:25] Robert W. Schneider: I won't tell you who it was. When I saw Company, I sat behind an original cast member of the show, and all she kept saying throughout the show was, all they do is march. Did they stop marching? Did they ever stop marching? Will they stop marching? It was kind of amazing.

[1:13:42] Robert W. Schneider: John Doyle also did an actor-musician version of Merrily at Cincinnati Playhouse in the Park, and that was the one they were like, we really want this to come in, but Sondheim had to go to Cincinnati to give his blessing for it. Now, what I heard was whoever made the arrangements for him screwed up, and they got him a plane to Cincinnati, but it was in the back row, like an economy class, in the middle seat. So he was like, what the fuck is this? I'm Stephen Sondheim, and he was pissed. So he got to the theater and he was in a really bad mood, and they were like, so, Broadway? He was like, nope, and just got up and left.

[1:14:32] Robert W. Schneider: So I have heard that story. I don't know if that's true. If anybody knows, please let me know, although I do have it from a very good source. So we'll see. God, I sound like Donald Trump. It's a very good source. Not even a good Donald Trump. I can't even give you a good Donald Trump impression. Aren't you happy this season's wrapping up? So Sondheim asked Doyle if he was interested in taking a stab at Bounce, and Doyle said yes, but on one condition.

[1:14:54] Robert W. Schneider: He wanted a weekend alone with the script and score, and he was allowed to edit it, rearrange it as he saw fit. With nothing to lose at this point, Sondheim and Wideman agreed, and Doyle began to work alongside Public Theater's Oscar Eustace as a dramaturg, who, if things went well, would present the show at the Public Theater with, of course, an eye on Broadway, but we don't talk about that. First, there would be dipping a toe in the pool, and there was a reading for the public in February of 2006 with Richard Kind again as Addison, Mark Kudisch as Wilson, Bernadette Peters as Mama, and John Cullum as Dad with Gavin Creel again as Hollis. It went well, and the team was encouraged now to do it at the public.

[1:15:33] Robert W. Schneider: As he worked on it, Doyle quipped, quote, these characters are complex and selfish and yet capable of love and kindness, just like all of us. And the phrasing of that quote is the best example of what Doyle brought to the piece. He first identified negative traits, complex and selfish, then said the positive, love and kindness. Prince's version had done the opposite. When Roadshow, as it was now called, opened at the Public Theater on November 18, 2008, the audience was greeted with a glum collection of steamer trunks and boxes, and that would be the whole set for the evening.

[1:16:07] Robert W. Schneider: Kind of makes sense for Addison, but not really for Wilson. And the show was dark. I mean, like, really dark. Like, you could not see anything. You kept being like, are the lights out? There were hints that the brothers were incestual, America was a fountain of venom, and anything that was sweet, funny, or warm from previous versions was now gone. The cast included Alexander Gemignani as Addison, Michael Cerveris as Wilson, love Michael, he's bald, I love you, and Alma Cuervo as Mama. The great duet, Best Thing, was now a duet for Addison and Hollis, making it the first same-sex song in a Sondheim show.

[1:16:44] Robert W. Schneider: The show, mercifully, was one-act, lean, telescopic, intriguing, and some critics actually enjoyed it. Well, as much as there was anything to be enjoyed in the 16 songs that comprised the evening. You know, come to think of it, they didn't enjoy it as much as commended it on being better than its last incarnation, but still not living up to its promise. It's interesting to note that the show, which seemed dated a few years before, now playing during the economic collapse of 2008, was now relevant. Still, at the end of the day, no one cared about the Meisner brothers, these two rich guys just yelling at each other with no problems except they got caught. It was stimulating, yes, but not engaging. Cool and distant, which is great for Brecht and a documentary, but not so great for a musical.

[1:17:28] Robert W. Schneider: The opening number was recycled, same melody as Bounce, now just a different point of view and lyric.

[1:17:37] ♪ Musical number: "Waste" — performed by the cast of Roadshow ♪

[1:19:02] Robert W. Schneider: After almost 20 years of working on this project, John Wideman said, quote, I don't think in a way we ever really got on the same page about what we were writing about. Was it a comedy? A tragedy? And without that unifying idea, the show was able to sputter in many different directions. None of them the quote unquote right direction.

[1:21:20] Robert W. Schneider: So after over 50 years, 60 songs, five directors and many disappointed Sondheim fans, Roadshow quietly faded away, never to appear on Broadway. It was brought back by Encores!'s Off-Broadway series Off-Center in 2019 with Raúl Esparza as Wilson and Brandon Uranowitz as Addison. It was directed by Will Davis as a radio play because, you know, another concept on the show is exactly what was needed. But actually, it worked quite well and allowed the actors and singers to focus on the text and not the production values, which is what Encores! was really going to at that point.

[1:21:56] Robert W. Schneider: It's interesting to note that Roadshow was part of an Encores! season examining the American dream. The other two shows that season were Al Carmine's Promenade and of course Stephen Schwartz's Working. It was Sondheim's dream for over 60 years to bring the Meisner Brothers story to life. Getting films The Discrete Charm of the Bourgeoisie and The Exterminating Angel onto stage would eventually happen in 2023 to mixed reviews. Sondheim did not live to see his full production of that musical Here We Are get to the stage and he would never see his own American dream, the glorification of the Meisner Brothers and song, reach Broadway.

[1:22:32] Robert W. Schneider: You know, sometimes when we're young we get fascinated by an idea or a concept and no matter how old we get or how much we learn, we are so enamored with an idea we cannot let it go. I think of the musicals or movies you loved as a kid, but as an adult you may realize they're maybe less than perfect, but it doesn't matter. What you fell in love with, you want to share with the world. Layman Engel, the great head of the BMI musical theater program, once said there were six essential ingredients to make a successful musical and you couldn't do a successful musical without all six. They were specificity in lyrics, specificity in composition, comedy, romance, and subplot.

[1:23:08] Robert W. Schneider: But Sondheim forgot or ignored Engel's most essential rule, the rule that Engel said triumphed over everything and that's feeling. If anyone could have made this story interesting, if anyone could have made us feel for anybody in this story, it would have been Stephen Sondheim. He got us to feel for a murderous barber. He got us to feel for presidential assassins. He even got us to feel and weave buckets over a painting. This is a gift, but whom do we feel for in Bounce? The idea of the Meisner Brothers is more interesting than the Meisners themselves.

[1:24:32] Robert W. Schneider: They were two guys out to make a buck, became rich, stayed rich, had rich guy problems, built a community for the rich, got punished, and then became a tiny footnote in history. Why should I care? Because one guy was flashy, the other one wasn't? One was gay, one was straight? One was a mama's boy, one wasn't? Because American history paralleled their lives? Because Wilson wrote plays no one remembers in Addison-built homes that are not iconic? All intellectually stimulating, but nothing that makes you feel anything beyond I'll Google them at some point. And for anyone who says a musical doesn't have to make you feel, show me a successful musical where that ingredient is missing.

[1:25:20] Robert W. Schneider: Not that Sondheim didn't try. Lord knows he and Weidman and his directors tried, but at the end of the day, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The Meisner Brothers are best left as characters on a library shelf, a footnote in history, an answer on Jeopardy, not front and center in a musical. I ended our second season with this musical because we all put Sondheim on a pedestal. Every writer wants to be him, or emulate him, and somehow that makes him seem unapproachable and always perfect, and he would be the first to tell you. He was not perfect. He could stumble, fall, fail, not crack it, and Bounce is the best representation of that.

[1:25:56] Robert W. Schneider: It allows all of us to see that sometimes not even the geniuses have the right answers. Not only Sondheim and Weidman, but Sam Mendes and Hal Prince, two of the most brilliant directors who have ever worked. And most importantly, it doesn't mean to stop trying. If you believe something will work, keep trying. Sondheim could have stopped after Irving Berlin had the rights, or after Sam Mendes petered out, or bad reviews in Chicago, but he believed he could crack it. He just never did. Perhaps for him, and for all of us, the greatest joy was not the finished product, but the attempt. The doing.

[1:26:36] Robert W. Schneider: The last line of Bounce is probably the most prophetic for this episode, for Sondheim's love of the Meisner Brothers, and for all the musicals that we discussed this season, each trying to be seen by a larger audience and gain legitimacy in the minds of New Yorkers. That last line, sooner or later, we're bound to get it right. Who knows? Maybe sooner or later, someone will. We'll see you all next season on Broadway Bound. Until then, take care. Bye-bye.

[1:26:52] Robert W. Schneider: Will everyone here kindly step to the rear and let a winner lead the way? Hi, friends. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Broadway Bound, a show that never came to Broadway. Just a reminder that it takes a lot of research and assistance to get these episodes produced, and any financial assistance is always appreciated. If you like what we are doing, please head over to robwschneider.com. That's R-O-B-W-S-C-H-N-E-I-D-E-R.com.

[1:27:40] Robert W. Schneider: Click the tab that says AMTA, that stands for the American Musical Theatre Archives, and make a tax-deductible donation to keep shows like this one on the air. Oh my gosh, I sound so much like PBS right now. I'm so sorry. And sadly, I can't even send you a tote bag, but I can wave energetically if I see you on the street, and isn't that worth the price of a donation alone? Actually, donate to PBS. That way, they can send you a tote bag. You can put it over your head so nobody sees me waving at you if you're really ashamed and embarrassed of my vociferous energy.

[1:27:56] Robert W. Schneider: Once again, robwschneider.com. Click AMTA, make a tax-deductible donation, and I will be forever grateful.