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[13:42] Robert W. Schneider: 1957's *Knights of Cabiria*. She was destined to become an international star, but in 1960, she starred in a movie called *The High Life*, which was supposed to catapult her to international stardom. It didn't, and the movie was a big old dud. Now, Messina thought, quote, what am I doing? This is crazy. So she gave up acting to focus on her husband and her family. Now, most husbands in the 1960s would have praised their wife for committing themselves to their family, but not Fellini, who knew his wife had a gift that needed to be seen and he couldn't let it atrophy. So he gave her a gift, a screenplay entitled *Juliet of the Spirits*, and it was going to be his first film in color. *Juliet of the Spirits* is basically *Alice in Wonderland* with an Italian twist, and if you ever saw the 1990 Woody Allen film *Alice*, starring his then muse Mia Farrow, you saw *Juliet of the Spirits*.

Messina plays Giulietta Boldrini, a pampered housewife who doesn't have to worry about money or cleaning or cooking. Everything is taken care of her by her husband, Giorgio. But just looking at the sleazy, sleazy guy, you know what she knows, which is he's bored by her and is looking for something else to satisfy his desires and most likely has already found it. In fact, the movie opens with their anniversary party, which she thinks will be a romantic evening alone, but he's invited all their friends over and then asks her to cook for the guests. He just can't be alone with her. I knew a couple ones where the guy was cheating on his partner, and he brought the other guy, the guy he was cheating with, to their anniversary dinner, so it was just the three of them together.

I can't even talk about it. Anyway, so the husband can't be alone with Giulietta. In fact, he can't even be with her when he's dreaming because he keeps mumbling other women's names. This makes me think of Desiree for our little *night music* fans. And one of the guests he has brought over to this anniversary party is a medium who literally looks like one of the fruit dancers from *Sweet Charity*, and she holds a seance, and a spirit named Olaf emerges, and he tells Giulietta, quote, "You're nothing. Nobody cares for you." Not even that, like, Long Island medium shit. I'm so proud of you. Just, girl, you're nothing. Be gone. Now, Giulietta is upset because she actually believes in this stuff.

In fact, when she was a child, she could close her eyes and conjure otherworldly things, but for some reason she no longer possesses this magical gift. I wonder if she has lost her powers and she wants it back. I want. It's an I want song. It's a musical already. Give me that strong objective. So Giulietta goes on a journey, much like *Alice in Wonderland*, and runs into her own mother who says she'd be prettier with makeup on. Isn't it nice to know mothers, no matter where they are in the world, they never change. She visits Bheeshma, a non-gendered oracle who sounds like Uncle Lewis from *Christmas Vacation* and looks like Paula Palin from *documentary now*, and he tells her the great or they tell her the greatest pleasure is loving themselves and that something wonderful will happen to her tonight.

Just imbibe the potion of oblivion, which is what I drink when people look at my resume. Now, she recounts the moment she watched her grandfather fall in love with a circus performer and abandon his family. So we got all this guilt. She meets a sexy ass man who is in her garden, who flirts with her and offers her sangria, quote, "The potion of oblivion," he calls it. And just as she's about to jump his bones, her husband interrupts her. And this guy is hot. He's a bullfighter, recites poetry, and is a daddy. She catches her husband on the phone with another woman, and he keeps lying to her like, oh, no, no, no, that was just that was nobody. This is literally like Jake from State Farm commercials, right?

So she gets a private investigator to follow him. Now, Giulietta has a neighbor, Susie. Susie is the typical male fantasy. She's hot, always wearing tight clothes and is sexually very liberated. Her house includes a chute that leads straight from her bed to a swimming pool and a tree house with an electric hoist that hauls up her lovers in a whisker basket. Now, I think Susie is also the architect behind the horse meat disco, but do not quote me. So now the private investigator, of course, lets Giulietta know her husband's having an affair. And it's a heartbreaking scene to watch her keep a brave face as the P.I. is watching her watch the film that he recorded of the husband having an affair.

So she decides, fuck it. She heads over to Susie's for a good old time. She's ready for fulfillment, sensuality, vice, but she can't let go. Something is gnawing at her. And alone, Giulietta is now confronted by all the ghosts of her past. This is literally the end of *Follies* before *Follies*. And it's creepy as fuck in the film. And it literally needs to sing. It feels kind of claustrophobic because you want these people on screen to burst into song. And all of a sudden, her visions are back. Everything that she had wanted in the past suddenly has materialized because she has allowed herself to be free of everything. She forgives her younger self. She forgives her mother. She forgives the husband.

The ghosts leave. There's a very tender moment where Giulietta hugs her younger self. And the last shot is her leaving her husband's house and walking down the street. The movie debuted in 1965. It wins the Golden Globe for Best Foreign Film. Giulietta Messina starts to make movies again. And Fellini continues to work, but not really producing anything at the same level as his earlier films. In fact, some might argue that, you know, *Giulietta of the Spirits* is sort of the beginning of the end. I disagree because I actually think his work in the 70s, like *Amour Accord*, is really fantastic. So what's interesting is, is because Fellini is now sort of becoming a little bit more obsolete in people's minds, and Carolyn Lee is becoming a little bit more obsolete in people's minds, it seems that they together could be a perfect match.

And in 1978, they get together. Carolyn Lee approaches Federico Fellini with this idea of adapting *Giulietta of the Spirits* into a musical. Fellini says, yep, go for it. And now Carolyn Lee needs some collaborators. So she hooks up with Morden Gould as the composer, and they need a book writer. Enter Susan Silver.

[20:02] Susan Silver: Well, I had been a television writer and moved and got just gotten divorced. So I moved to New York, and my agent was Biff Liff at William Morris. He was a very well-known guy. And he said to me, what do you really want to do? And I said, I really would love to do theater, I said. And he said, well, what are your interests? I said, oh, romantic things and ESP and fantasies. He said, I've got the perfect project for you. I said, you're kidding. He said, no. He said, it's Morden Gould, who is the world-famous composer, and Carolyn Lee. And it's Fellini's *Giulietta of the Spirits*. I said, you must be kidding. I had never seen it. I immediately looked at it. And the two producers were two kids.

I'm still friends with one of them now. Lou Rudin, who was a big real estate guy in New York, his daughter. And the fellow, I'm trying to remember his name now, Michael somebody, I don't know. And that was how it started. And it was so unbelievably exciting. And just for our listeners, what were some of the television shows you had been working on prior to *Enter Juliet* and then post-*Enter Juliet*?

[21:02] Susan Silver: Yeah, well, when I lived in LA, I was one of the first writers of the *Mary Tyler Moore Show*, which is the greatest credit that's there. It's a 50-year credit that still lives. And there was just a great documentary on HBO called *Being Mary Tyler Moore*. And that was the greatest credit. I started on top. I said it was downhill for the next 20 years. It was the greatest show to work on with the best people. And then I did *New Heart* and *Maud* and *Square Pegs* and *Partridge Family*. And then I moved to New York. And it was very, very difficult because there was very little TV out of New York. So I had to keep commuting back to LA. So eventually, in 1980, I moved back to LA so that my career would, you know, resuscitate. And I was doing a lot of pilots out of CBS here.

[21:48] Robert W. Schneider: What was the impetus to move to New York?

[21:51] Susan Silver: In 1978, a female librettist was not too familiar to Broadway audiences. So Lee, rightfully, is breaking another glass ceiling by including her on the project. A female comedy writer in an industry overwhelmingly dominated by men. And I didn't know what to do. I was, I had never done it before. I was so scared. So I went to, I happened to be going to a Russian tea room for lunch. And I ran into somebody and I said, Oh, my God, I'm doing a musical. I don't know what to do. He said, Well, let me introduce you to the guy who wrote the book, Joe Stein for *Fiddler on the Roof*. I said, Oh, that would be very helpful. So we had lunch. And he said to me, just remember, they don't know what to do until you tell them. You are the one in control. You say, I want a song here. I want a song here. I want it to be about this. I said, You're kidding. I'm going to tell those two people. He said, Yes. And so I did.

[22:44] Robert W. Schneider: When you go to the public library and you look at Lee's files, this show is overflowing with material. You can tell that this show because of the written notes and observations and paperwork that she has in this folder, you can tell this show meant so much to Carolyn Lee. What was it like working with Carolyn Lee and Morton Gould at this time?

[23:10] Susan Silver: Carolyn was larger than life, both literally and figuratively, and very large personality and very compelling. And Morton was very quiet and nice. And she kind of she would call me in the middle of the night. No matter what, I could be asleep. I could be doing something naughty. She started singing lyrics to me over the phone. And very dramatic. And she used to carry on and whatever. She scared me. We think the best way to introduce *Enter Juliet* to you is by giving you a little mini radio play, a little mini podcast play with our Broadway band players. This is from a draft from 1978. The book, once again, is by the wonderful Susan Silver. Music by Morton Gould. Lyrics by Carolyn Lee. I hope you enjoy our little condensed version of *Enter Juliet* because once again, I think the work that is on this show by Miss Lee, Mr. Gould and Miss Silver is something pretty, pretty special.

All right, Mr. Stage Directions, take us down to New Orleans. The living room of the Palmer House. It is dark except for a spotlight that starts out small and grows to reveal a round table and the participants in a seance who sit around it.

[24:08] Robert W. Schneider: Juliet, a woman in her early 40s, pleasant looking and attractive rather than a great beauty. There's a warmth about her, a sense of humor that is gentle and self-deprecating. And like the child who still lives within, she can escape into fantasy when the world around her is threatening. She sits outside the circle. George, her husband, sits in the circle. He is extremely handsome, almost 50 with graying temples. He is sophisticatedly dressed, a man who obviously takes great pride in his looks and appeal to women. On her other side, one of the guests, all of whom make up the New Orleans Mardi Gras committee, Lucian, a southern gentleman from a fine old family and indeterminate age. Thin, elegant, he has courtly manners but the tongue and walk of a serpent, a jaded dilettante who has tasted all life has to offer.

He observes and instigates. Fun to have on your side, but woe to him he dislikes. And sometimes the line separating the two is thin. Next to him is Madam. Her father, a phony count, has left her a title and perhaps some money. Well known as a character around town, she wears huge floral hats and dresses more suitable to a 16-year-old prom girl than an overweight buxom woman of 60. She wears wigs that slip, too much makeup, but always has a young and handsome escort whose favors she pays for. Boisterous and amusing, a busy body with a good heart. Next to her is this month's friend, Guy, whose real name is Tommy. 27, a beautiful Adonis, blonde. He is long on looks and short on brains and is only occasionally embarrassed by the displays of affection his job requires.

Next are Boister and his wife, Lani Wanda. A beefy boozer, he dresses in pastel polyester and is head of several fraternal organizations and the Chamber of Commerce. He sells insurance. His wife is a pinch-faced woman with a bouffant hairdo sprayed into permanent immobility. All sweetness and light on the surface, there is a steel core underneath, often drenched with alcohol. Seated next to them are two harpy-like spinsters, the Delange sisters. They scuttle around like mice still more in the Civil War and are determined to live their remaining days in the past. A solo horn plays a few lines of music from a jazz band from the street.

[26:41] Robert W. Schneider: Come on, you don't even need to do this show. Just read the stage directions. In the movie, mysticism is a parlor game and a divertissement from reality, but tying it into occult practices automatically grounds us in a reality, one in which mysticism is essential to life. Raise those sticks, Susan Silver. Nicely done. Like in the film, the spiritual message for Juliet is she's nothing. That's what the ghosts have to say from the other side. You're assholes, ghosts. Now, of course, as you know, in the movie, this causes her to faint. And to comfort Juliet, the citizens of Louisiana sing a song about how...

[27:24] Robert W. Schneider: Now, we don't have this song, so I'm going to talk the Carolyn Lee lyrics for you. You're gonna love, gonna love, Louisiana, L-O-O-Z-Y-A-N-A. You're gonna love, gonna love when the puffer belly pulls into that railroad station, all the wheels in syncopation. You're gonna love when a whorehouse piano plays melodies that'll turn both your knees to jelly, and the words are sweet like honey dripping from the comb, telling you that Louisiana is your home, sweet, Rampart Bourbon, name your own street. Louisiana is your home, sweet home. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed my talked version of a musical theater song. I feel like this is an Eva Von Hove production. Just, who doesn't like musicals, but he'll do them anyway. So anyway, the guests leave, and George and Juliet go to bed, while Juliet is talking to George, and he falls asleep. And while he is sleeping, she sings this title song.

[28:33] ♪ Musical number: "Enter Juliet" — performed by Nicole Weitzman ♪

[31:19] Robert W. Schneider: And in his sleep, much like Little Night Music's Frederick, he mutters the name Gabrielle. Ooh, drama. Anyone SCTV fans out there? Eugene Levy is Bobby Bittman. I love drama. The next morning, Juliet awakens and does her aerobics. And when asked why she does aerobics, she pretty much reveals that her own mother sort of screwed up her self-image of what a pretty woman should be. Then Juliet hangs with Lucien, her new gay best friend. Well, he's a gigolo with older southern women, but he's totally a gay man. And while serving him coffee, she says something quite interesting.

[32:00] Nicole Weitzman: Coffee?

[32:02] Robert W. Schneider: She pours for him.

[32:03] Nicole Weitzman: Oh yes, I'm a good... I almost said little girl. Huh. I've always abided by rules. Or subscriptions. For my generation, magazines determined what was in. My house was run by Home and Garden, my wardrobe from Vogue, my daughter a product of Seventeen, and I fully expect to wake up one morning and see that I have the Good Housekeeping stamp of approval on my forehead.

[32:25] Robert W. Schneider: She doesn't want to complain to him and quickly starts working on her flowers.

[32:29] Nicole Weitzman: I love these flowers. And you can tell. Flowers, like people, respond to love. You obviously have a lot of love to give. Embarrassed to admit, I used to see people I didn't know. Fantasies, I suppose. Then a memory out of nowhere. Before I was born, my grandfather had run off with a trapeze artist. I never knew him. His name was forbidden to be mentioned in our home. One day, when I was a little girl, there he was in the backyard. I knew immediately who he was. A tall man with a long gray beard. He looked the way I'd imagined God would. And she was with him. A beautiful woman. Dark hair piled up in lovely swirls. And she had a doll for me. It was dressed in a glittery red costume. A trapeze costume.

And I loved it. Its face was different than any other dolls I had ever seen. It seemed strong. And now I think maybe sensual. My mother came running out of the house and made me give the doll back. She made me go to him and say, "You're not my grandfather anymore. You don't exist." They left without another word. And I never saw them again. I imagine they flew away in a beautiful balloon. I had a lot of dolls, but none of them ever was as lovely as the one I had to give back. Generational trauma before it had a name.

[34:49] Robert W. Schneider: Then she bumps into sexy neighbor Susie, who says Juliette should come over to her Mardi Gras party. And Julie says she has to ask her husband first. But Susie says no. You don't ask your husband. You tell your husband. Applause for Susie. Lucien takes Juliette on a tour, and their first stop is Dr. Zuzu, a medicine man who sings a song called Money Can Buy. They then all go to a cemetery, and there's a voodoo dance, and leading it is Susie. But Lucien denies that it's her. The doctor, Dr. Zuzu, man, don't you feel like that's someone you'd see advertised on like a New York City subway? Call Dr. Zuzu. The doctor then inducts her with a song called The Wind in the Night.

[35:41] ♪ Musical number: "The Wind in the Night" — performed by Dr. Zuzu ♪

[36:48] Robert W. Schneider: And during this number, the voodoo queen that's there with the doctor says, "I will give you gris-gris to keep your man, but you must listen. Sex is a conflict. The body is the battleground of passion. Love is a religion. You must smoke and burn like the incense. The body is love. Invoke the powerful force inside yourself. Something new and beautiful will happen. Suzette is your teacher." So I think this is so fascinating because all the things that Susan Silver is having Juliet learn in this musical from the late 1970s is things that are currently being discussed today in 2024 about a female identifying individual, their body, what is appropriate, what is not appropriate, and this idea of self-love.

And to quote RuPaul, how the hell are you going to love yourself before you can love anybody else? Can I get an amen? Can I not get a copyright infringement? Before Juliet can question her, she breaks away and begins an erotic dance, first slowly, then building up faster and faster. Juliet dances in counterpoint. So Juliet returns home and sees George, and she gives George an epic observation as they get ready for bed.

[37:13] Nicole Weitzman: What do you think, George? Earplugs. I got them today. I haven't been sleeping too well myself. I have a lot on my mind. So someone suggested I try these. They block out everything.

[37:25] Robert W. Schneider: Puts them back in. Come on to bed. Let's get some sleep. I have a long day tomorrow. Softly, as she gazes out the window. They block out everything. How convenient for you. Juliet and Lucien, or Lucien, I don't know how to say his name. It's either going to be Lucien or Lucien. Anyway, Juliet and Lucien go to a detective dressed in a priest outfit. Yes, the detective is dressed in a priest outfit, and he comforts her, but he interrogates her about how George is until she bursts forth and sings this song, which closes Act One.

[38:00] ♪ Musical number: "Without Him" — performed by Nicole Weitzman ♪

[41:06] Robert W. Schneider: We will go outside and light up a smoke and stare at the beauty of the Morosco Theatre knowing it will never go away. I feel like this would have played at the Majestic or the Imperial, this show, with a big red marquee and in white like elephant man lettering. Just enter Juliet. OK, time to go back in. They are flashing the lights. Make sure one of those cheap-ass second actors doesn't take your $15 orchestra seat. But before we go in, do you feel like the book for this is actually a little better than the score? I mean, the book is giving us voodoo, occult, New Orleans, jazz world, and the score sounds like opera and the lyrics are urbane. I mean, I get the lyrics, you know, being urbane because this is supposed to be the world of George and Juliet who are coming from up north, but the music seems a little too operatic for me.

Maybe it all comes together in the second half. Wait, look over there. Across the aisle. Is that Ruth Gordon? She's taller than I thought. OK, so Act 2 opens with our typical throwaway musical theater number to get us back into the world. You know, Act 2 openers were traditionally throwaway. Things have changed. Look at Sweeney, which sets up what has happened since we were away and lays out everything yet to come. Carolyn did not get that message, so Act 2 opens with the character of the many times married madam, an eccentric probably played by Elaine Stritch, Geraldine Page, and as she paints naked men, maybe Josh Logan was going to direct this, she sings this song.

[42:54] ♪ Musical number: "I Get Married" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[45:58] Robert W. Schneider: Juliet now confronts Lucien about his ideas to escape reality. A sense of humor and a little booze. That's what you prescribed for me the first night we met. Do you remember? You always have the answers. Tell me then, what's the opposite of they lived happily ever after? The end? Perhaps the beginning. But remember, a union based on eternal illusion cannot last. It's all an illusion. I feel like a child in a world of adults. Everyone knows the answers but me. In the words of the great philosopher Doris Day, Que sera, sera. What will be, will be, right? And going on from that, what is, is, my darling. Not the most comforting words to live by, but when you consider the alternative. I know you think I've let you down, and I'm going to have to do it again.

I'll be terribly busy the next few days, so I won't be seeing you. But I sent you a little present. You didn't have to. I know that, but I wanted to. It's to protect you. Sometimes you can find happiness in your own backyard, but Suzanne, played by Lola Falana in my version, teaches Juliet about sexually fulfilling herself first, maybe entering an orgy with her and two boys, something the film doesn't explore so deeply. Juliet is game, puts on a red dress, dons a mask, and goes to the Mardi Gras party, ready to have fun, as the young kids say. But she gets there, drinks, and begins to have a fantasy, be part of an orgy of follies-like fantasy, where everyone from her life is there, mom, husbands, husband's mistress, Lucien the voodoo doctor, Ruth Gordon.

[47:43] ♪ Musical number: "Who Needed You" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[49:41] Robert W. Schneider: Because of this montage of Nightmare, Juliet lets it explode. She reveals she wants George to feel as bad as she does. She wants to be everything to George, not just an accessory. Ah, there you are. Must have been some party. I hope you had a better time than I did escorting all those old ladies from house to house. Listen, darling, I have to go on a short business trip. I have a new potential account in Savannah. That's the first time you've ever packed for yourself. Then, with no expression, are you going with her? What? Almost relieved that he doesn't have to lie anymore, slumps down on the bed. It's not what you think. At first, I didn't want to face it. I fought it. I tried. But I'm no longer young and I've never been beautiful.

So Mother told me. Monsters and spirits told me. Suzette, voodoo, television voices warned me. Be sexy. Be more of a whore. Hair this way. Makeup that way. Lose weight. All the talk about youth, and I'd say it doesn't bother me. I'll escape from it. I wanted to, but it was hard, especially when your husband is having a fling with someone 26. George sees her pain and feels his own terrible guilt. But she looks back strong. But now, finally, I no longer hear them, George. No more voices, but I'm strangely grateful to them. They helped to free me. It's not you. I wish I could make you understand. It's just that I felt the panic. Realizes she never knew him. You? Yes, of course. And I never knew.

[52:48] Robert W. Schneider: Yes. You had your fantasy. And I thought I was always the only one with fantasy. Maybe if I go away for a while and live out this one. Yes. It's important to live. But in the present not the past or future. It's no good living with a soul decaying. You used to wake me up and make me promise I wouldn't die first and leave you. Remember? I remember. You don't do that anymore. She looks at him and sees she is no longer able to keep the bargain. No. No more game. Look. We have a life together. Good things together and I don't want that to end. When I first came upstairs and saw you from the back for a moment I didn't know who it was. You looked like a stranger from the back. And then I saw your reflection and it was a stranger too.

One shouldn't keep a bargain knowing it was only cowardice or reasonableness that made the other stay. No. It's more than that. Looks for hopeful sign. So then nothing's been done that can't be undone? It's not so frightening, George. The opposite of they lived happily ever after. And together they sing nothing is forever.

[54:06] Robert W. Schneider: It's not as depicted in the ladies' home journal life, I mean. And how did we end up with words like eternal and evergreen? It's comedy. It's tragedy. And it all goes by too fast. Though I should have known from that very first day when the ice cream cone didn't last.

[54:48] Robert W. Schneider: No, that time mustn't catch you sleeping. Darling, time is running low.

[55:18] Robert W. Schneider: Love spoils with too much keeping. When it wants to go, time to let it go.

[55:30] Robert W. Schneider: Nothing is forever. Nothing is forever. Nothing is forever.

[55:40] Robert W. Schneider: He takes his bag and leaves, knowing he has lost her and not knowing what he has won.

[55:57] Robert W. Schneider: As she finishes the song alone, everything around her begins to disappear. The house, the garden, the gate.

[56:03] Robert W. Schneider: She stands alone as the jazz band comes back playing a rousing spiritual with a sense of determination and freedom.

[56:11] Robert W. Schneider: She is full of confidence, no more fear. As she takes off the gris-gris bag and throws it away, she needs nothing to protect her.

[56:18] Robert W. Schneider: She can survive all possibilities and is ready to enter the world on her own.

[56:26] Robert W. Schneider: She follows the band in a triumphant parade.

[56:32] Robert W. Schneider: When a movie is turned into a musical, you must ask yourself, what is being gained by adding music?

[56:38] Robert W. Schneider: Like I said before, this film already feels like a musical and the music will only enhance these larger emotions that are longing to get out of Juliet.

[56:44] Robert W. Schneider: Brilliantly, her husband has no solos in this show. He can't express himself through song.

[56:51] Robert W. Schneider: While the occult and seances were a catalyst in the film, here they are the foundation of the musical. Juliet cannot escape from it.

[56:57] Robert W. Schneider: Plus, this movie predicted the feminist movement that would be politicized by the late 1970s when Carolyn Lee is working on this piece.

[57:06] Robert W. Schneider: Unlike many movie musicals where the impact and its time would not relate to the impact of the musical like 9 to 5, Juliet of the Spirit would somehow be more important in the late 1970s when women were fighting more for independence, the ERA movement, and women who were filling their days like Juliet by going to the theater might be empowered enough to take control of their own destinies after seeing Enter Juliet.

[57:40] Robert W. Schneider: This musical could have more of an impact than its movie.

[57:44] Robert W. Schneider: Plus, we can only imagine how Enter Juliet would have dominated the 1979-1980 season and been a really nice addition to the other musicals of that time.

[57:53] Robert W. Schneider: Gotta Go Disco, Coming Up Town, Reggae, and Never Jam Today were trying to sell disco to a world that had moved on while the 1940s Radio Hour, Canterbury Tales, Happy New Year, Sugar Babies, and Hollywood Ukraine were all living in the past.

[58:06] Robert W. Schneider: Barnum wanted its audiences to follow the band and Musical Chairs just wanted an audience.

[58:11] Robert W. Schneider: Plus, there were only two musicals that really celebrated women as the ERA debate raged on.

[58:16] Robert W. Schneider: One was Madwoman of Central Park West, and that was great if you were rich and wanted to watch Phyllis Newman sing about the troubles with H&R Block.

[58:23] Robert W. Schneider: And Evita was about a rich woman who was her own person from the moment of birth.

[58:28] Robert W. Schneider: Where was the musical about a woman who looked like the audience, a middle-aged woman married because society said to, looking to explore what every single woman was getting to explore, where was her musical voice?

[58:42] Robert W. Schneider: It was there with Juliet, and imagine the Broadway artists who could have been attached to this.

[58:47] Robert W. Schneider: Tony Walton or Raoul Pineda-Bois giving you sets and costumes to die for.

[58:52] Robert W. Schneider: And Hal Prince could have nailed the surrealism, Bob Fosse the sexiness, Michael Bennett would have made Juliet an old dancer who wanted to try one more time, dammit, to dance.

[59:01] Robert W. Schneider: If they wanted to put a woman at the helm, they could have chosen directors like Vinette Carroll, Julianne Boyd, or... Well, no, no, that was it at the time.

[59:09] Robert W. Schneider: But they did have two options for directors.

[59:14] Robert W. Schneider: We really had fun doing it. It was great.

[59:16] Robert W. Schneider: And then when it was time to look for a director, we narrowed it down to two of the great directors, Jack O'Brien, who was a major director, and Frank Dunlop, who was an English major director.

[59:27] Robert W. Schneider: And we chose Frank, and unfortunately it didn't work out because he kept wanting to workshop and redo, and we never got off our feet.

[59:35] Robert W. Schneider: Frank and I, you know, we were friends for a long time, but I think it turned out to be the wrong choice.

[59:39] Robert W. Schneider: Now, for casting, it's 1978, so you could have cast people like John Cullum as the husband George, Lola Felana as Susie, Bruce Hubbard, whose name was actually mentioned in the papers that I found as the doctor, George Rose as Lucian with his tiger in the ensemble.

[59:55] Robert W. Schneider: That's a story for another time.

[59:57] Robert W. Schneider: No, Leroy Reams, Jane Cannell, Susan Johnson, Dorothy Loudon filling out some of the other roles, but who for Juliet? Who was the Julietta Messina of musical theater?

[1:00:02] Robert W. Schneider: Vulnerable yet with a spine, whimsical but grounded, early 40s, or could play early 40s.

[1:00:12] Robert W. Schneider: Chita Rivera was too tough, Bernadette Peters too young, Helen Gallagher too old, Natalie Wood couldn't sing, Elizabeth Ashley would have busted the balls of George, Dixie Carter was on different strokes and so was Charlotte Ray, Brenda Vaccaro was selling tampons, so who?

[1:00:26] Robert W. Schneider: I'd like to propose a few names before we look at who they actually went after.

[1:00:30] Robert W. Schneider: First place to start is charity grown-up Gwen Verdon.

[1:00:34] Robert W. Schneider: She had just finished Chicago and was pretty much retired from stage work.

[1:00:37] Robert W. Schneider: Ironically, when Woody Allen made the same film of Juliet of the Spirits in 1990, Verdon played the vain mother.

[1:00:46] Robert W. Schneider: Mary Tyler Moore was too busy preparing for Whose Life Is It Anyway, the show where everything is paralyzed.

[1:00:53] Robert W. Schneider: How about someone who needs a second chance, much like Juliet?

[1:01:10] Robert W. Schneider: Someone who could sing Juliet's soprano songs, vulnerable, quirky, could sing fun comedy anywhere, and could also break your heart.

[1:01:17] Robert W. Schneider: Madeleine Kahn.

[1:01:19] Robert W. Schneider: Would Broadway take a chance on her so soon after On the 20th Century, would producers?

[1:01:23] Robert W. Schneider: That means Hal Prince would be out.

[1:01:25] Robert W. Schneider: Would she even be willing to come back?

[1:01:27] Robert W. Schneider: To me, had she done it, she would have given Patty a run for her money come Tony time for Evita.

[1:01:31] Robert W. Schneider: I think producers needed a star to get this show to Broadway.

[1:01:34] Robert W. Schneider: Juliet was a star vehicle with no stars behind it.

[1:01:37] Robert W. Schneider: Lee had never really had a hit on Broadway.

[1:01:39] Robert W. Schneider: She was fired from Peter Pan.

[1:01:40] Robert W. Schneider: She was a pain in the ass on Little Me.

[1:01:42] Robert W. Schneider: Mourning Gould wasn't a well-known Broadway composer.

[1:01:44] Robert W. Schneider: Susan was from the world of television.

[1:01:46] Robert W. Schneider: The producers behind it, Michael Weil and Beth Rudin de Woody, they were art patrons.

[1:01:51] Robert W. Schneider: They were not exactly David Merrick and Cy Fjord.

[1:01:53] Robert W. Schneider: So for this thing to work, it needed a star, and not a personality star, a star star.

[1:01:59] Robert W. Schneider: And so they reached out to the biggest musical comedy star.

[1:02:05] Robert W. Schneider: Yes, Mrs. Lovett herself, Angela Lansbury.

[1:02:08] Robert W. Schneider: They couldn't even overlook the fact she was a little too old for Juliet.

[1:02:11] Robert W. Schneider: Messina was in her early 40s, Lansbury was in her mid-50s, but she would sell tickets.

[1:02:15] Robert W. Schneider: And the writers and producers decided they would wait for her.

[1:02:18] Robert W. Schneider: She had to do the tour of Sweeney Todd, then film The Mirror Cracked and do some positive moves.

[1:02:23] Robert W. Schneider: My yoga video people know what I'm talking about.

[1:02:25] Robert W. Schneider: She was so lovely and so nice.

[1:02:28] Robert W. Schneider: Of course, she knew Morton and Carolyn.

[1:02:31] Robert W. Schneider: She was an extraordinarily lovely woman, as we all know.

[1:02:37] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, of course.

[1:02:38] Robert W. Schneider: That was so exciting for me.

[1:02:40] Robert W. Schneider: I think it was a reading to help us with the character.

[1:02:44] Robert W. Schneider: We wouldn't say we auditioned on her, but to see if she was interested at all, and to do a reading and see how it went.

[1:02:51] Robert W. Schneider: But I just remember thinking, Angela Lansbury, one of the great people in the business, is so lovely and so nice and not a prima donna in any way.

[1:03:02] Robert W. Schneider: And the workshops grinded on.

[1:03:05] Robert W. Schneider: Well, he didn't want us to do auditions or raise money or anything until we had workshops.

[1:03:11] Robert W. Schneider: And we felt we wanted the process all to be happening at the same time.

[1:03:17] Robert W. Schneider: In other words, when we had Angela read or somebody read or we did a presentation, but we never got it off its feet.

[1:03:24] Robert W. Schneider: We never got it complete to show to anybody.

[1:03:27] Robert W. Schneider: And then a letter arrived from Angela Lansbury.

[1:03:32] Robert W. Schneider: A reading from Angela to the Carolyns.

[1:03:36] Robert W. Schneider: Dear Carolyn, thanks for asking Pete and I to share the excitement of hearing Julie of the Spirit.

[1:03:43] Robert W. Schneider: You are a rare and special lyricist, and we were taken with your words and Morton's music.

[1:03:50] Robert W. Schneider: The book worries me a little.

[1:03:52] Robert W. Schneider: I read it carefully, and so did Peter.

[1:03:55] Robert W. Schneider: Speaking for myself, I thought Juliet comes across as an insipid sort of dame.

[1:04:01] Robert W. Schneider: Not her songs, however. In her reactions and dialogue, which is not really interesting enough to lure me out of my lair.

[1:04:09] Robert W. Schneider: I long to tackle ladies who are complex and fascinating, and at my age, that fairy demands rather headier ingredients in the characters I play.

[1:04:21] Robert W. Schneider: I honestly believe if she were to be played as a younger woman, say 33, and her husband merely wayward 40, this could be their tenth anniversary, and she as a young matron could know the disappointment of her husband not turning up in the subsequent introduction by the spirits of her to the high life, voodoo, and all the sensational nonsense, and the guys would really mean something.

[1:04:48] Robert W. Schneider: Incidentally, at present, I find most of the subsidiary characters far more interesting than she was, and I use a time-worn phrase, I didn't care about her.

[1:05:00] Robert W. Schneider: I think if she were younger, I'd feel sorry for her.

[1:05:04] Robert W. Schneider: As she is drawn, I found her a bit stupid.

[1:05:08] Robert W. Schneider: You probably won't agree. And anyway, it's none of my business.

[1:05:13] Robert W. Schneider: Just a thought. Do you get my drift?

[1:05:15] Robert W. Schneider: I'm eternally flattered that you should have thought of me and wouldn't have missed hearing it for the world.

[1:05:21] Robert W. Schneider: Peter and I wish you all great good luck with this most exciting venture.

[1:05:26] Robert W. Schneider: Much love, Angela.

[1:05:30] Robert W. Schneider: So, Lee hoped Angela would change her mind, and she didn't.

[1:05:33] Robert W. Schneider: And was Angela right? Would the show be more effective with a younger Juliet, a young girl of 33?

[1:05:39] Robert W. Schneider: But who? It would have to be a star.

[1:05:41] Robert W. Schneider: Diane Keaton, she did hair. Sally Field, could she sing? Susan Sarandon, from Rocky Horror to Aggressive.

[1:05:48] Robert W. Schneider: Patti Duke, Hayley Mills, those are good ideas, but not what the team wanted, so they waited.

[1:05:53] Robert W. Schneider: And while they waited, Carolyn did a few shows at Michael's Pub and waited.

[1:05:58] Robert W. Schneider: She lectured at the 92nd Street Y and waited.

[1:06:01] Robert W. Schneider: She watched lyricists like Mickey Grant, Carol Hall, Liz Suedos, go through doors she had opened and waited.

[1:06:08] Robert W. Schneider: She began fiddling with some other projects, like a review called A Survivor's Guide to New York, working with Larry Gelbart on a musical called Flyers, and possibly adapting Neil Simon's The Heartbreak Kid into a musical with Cy Coleman.

[1:06:20] Robert W. Schneider: And by June of 1982, Juliet exited.

[1:06:25] Robert W. Schneider: Continuation of the show was terminated.

[1:06:27] Robert W. Schneider: And that was okay, because Carolyn had thrown herself into a new project, adapting the 1975 film Smile into a musical with Marvin Hamlisch and Annie's Thomas Meehan.

[1:06:38] Robert W. Schneider: They did a reading in 1981, and the producers demanded Meehan be replaced.

[1:06:42] Robert W. Schneider: He was replaced with Jack Heifner, of Vanity's fame.

[1:06:45] Robert W. Schneider: And in April of 1983, a workshop occurred with Graciela Danielle at the helm, and at the end of the workshop, the producers walked away.

[1:06:52] Robert W. Schneider: And seven months later, at the age of 57, Carolyn Lee died of a heart attack, leaving behind tons of shows, tons of ideas, and an eternal optimism that no matter the rejection of her work, the best is yet to come.

[1:07:15] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you so much for listening to Broadway Bound, the musicals that never came to Broadway.

[1:07:19] Robert W. Schneider: If you like what we are doing, please spread the word, and most importantly, rate and review us on iTunes.

[1:07:25] Robert W. Schneider: And if you have any thoughts on today's show, hit me up on Instagram.

[1:07:30] Robert W. Schneider: Yes, that's what the young kids do, right? Rob W. Schneider on Instagram.

[1:07:34] Robert W. Schneider: And if you really like what we are doing, please consider making a tax-deductible donation to my non-profit, the American Musical Theater Archives, which is diligently working to ensure that the music, lyrics, and librettos of these shows, as well as many others, are being preserved for future academics and theater lovers.

[1:07:52] Robert W. Schneider: Every dollar that you contribute, once again, a tax-deductible dollar, helps to legitimize the study and practice of musical theater.

[1:08:00] Robert W. Schneider: Simply click the link in today's show description, or simply go to my website, www.RobWSchneider.com, look for the tab that says AMTA, and you can make a donation there.

[1:08:12] Robert W. Schneider: Please, let's make sure that the future academics who love musical theater and see it as the art form that it truly is, have the financial resources necessary to keep spreading that love and preserving this history.

[1:08:24] Robert W. Schneider: See you next episode.