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[0:00] Robert W. Schneider: If I said to you I have a score by Guys and Dolls' Frank Loesser, book by Kiss Me Kate's Sam Spiewak, directed by the one and only Bob Fosse, and starring hit television personality Phyllis Newman, you'd probably ask where you could invest because this is going to be bigger than talking pictures. But it wasn't! Why? Why did all of these wonderful people struggle with making Russian expansion funny and musical? Well, maybe that answered its own question. Why is Frank Loesser's Pleasures and Palaces even worth talking about? What if I told you it was the show that created the Fosse dancer? See, what happened was… well, you're going to have to stay tuned to find out.

[0:57] Robert W. Schneider: Welcome back to another episode of Broadway Bound, the musicals that never came to Broadway. And if you like this show, please head over to robwschneider.com, click the tab that says AMTA, make a tax-deductible donation so the show can continue on. Please. It means a lot to me and I kind of need to buy some food. I'm very, very hungry. I've spent a lot of money building a time machine to talk to Frank Loesser for today's episode. Now today, get out your red tights, Roxy, because we're going to hot-shot and whoopie all the way back to a musical that was not only inspired by a play that closed on opening night, that's a good omen, but was also the show that gave birth to the Fosse dancer. And while we know Charity and Chicago and Cabaret and all that jazz, we might not know where Fosse's style was born.

It was born in Pleasures and Palaces. And believe it or not, Fosse wasn't the muscle on the show. Frank Loesser was. Not literal muscle, like he didn't lift things, but he was the head honcho. The number one man, though. What he says goes, guy. And he rightfully earned that distinction.

[1:57] Robert W. Schneider: In the golden age of Broadway, we have a group of writers who were always working. Rodgers and Hammerstein, Julie Stein, Comden and Green. And then we had a handful of people who would only appear every once in a while to give us something remarkable. Quality, not quantity. Like Lerner and Loewe, or Adler and Ross, or Meredith Wilson, or Frank Loesser. Although Loesser's works outshine those guys in my humble opinion. Give me Guys and Dolls over Paint Your Wagon any day. Also, Maria. They call the wind Mariah. Please, it's Maria. Do not gaslight me.

[2:29] Robert W. Schneider: Now, Frank Loesser, the songwriter, was in the twilight of his career when Pleasures and Palaces burst into Detroit in 1965 with only five shows behind him. Actually, Fosse had more Broadway credits than Loesser by 1965, having worked on Pajama Game, Damn Yankees, Bells Are Ringing, New Girl in Town, Redhead, How to Succeed, and Little Me. Loesser, on the other hand, only had one masterpiece after another. Where's Charlie? Guys and Dolls, The Most Happy Fella, How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. Each its own unique sound. Loesser had cultivated his sound working in Hollywood. Benny Goodman recorded his songs like Junkman. And then came the hits Too Sleepy People, Heart and Soul, I Hear Music, I Don't Want to Walk Without You, They're Either Too Young or Too Old, and my favorite, Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition.

[3:40] Robert W. Schneider: Which we hear during Christmas time. Take it away!

[4:11] Robert W. Schneider: Of course, that is the wonderful Christmas song, Baby, It's Cold Outside. By the time Loesser—oh sorry, I should say by this time, what time is it? It's party time! Loesser was being lured to Broadway, and he couldn't resist the call. In 1948, Loesser's first book musical, Where's Charlie, debuted and won accolades for its peppy score, including the best sing-along in musical theater. Sorry, no time at all. Take it away, Where's Charlie?

[4:40] Robert W. Schneider: In love with Amy. Always in love with Amy. Loesser followed that show up with the perfect musical, Guys and Dolls. Yes, it is perfect because it is the first successful musical to give the A couple and B couple equal amounts of stage time, and Loesser said characters should sing like they speak, and there is no better example of that than this opening number.

[5:06] Robert W. Schneider: I got the horse right here, the name is Paul Revere, and here's a guy that says if the weather's clear, can do, can do. This guy says the horse can do, if he says the horse can do, can do, can do. Guys and Dolls is like a perfect show. You cannot ruin it. Well, I shouldn't say that. I have, I think we've all seen some productions of Guys and Dolls that were a little, a little tough. I'm going to tell you one of my favorite ones. It was at a theater in Marin County, California, and the show started with an announcement saying that, you know, if you or anyone you know suffer from a gambling addiction, please make sure to call, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. I mean, this is not really the best, like, way to start Guys and Dolls.

I mean, I didn't realize, like, Henrik Ibsen had done some book work on it, but the best part of the show, because you were like, what the hell's happening, is Miss Adelaide sings, you know, Adelaide's Lament, and so the actress, who was very talented, she had a book in her hand and she went over to, like, a railing and she put her foot up on the railing, kind of like she's stretching, like a ballet stretch, and she said, it says here, and I'm like, oh, that's funny, like, she'll do the first verse, you know, on the ballet bar, and then the second verse on the ballet bar, and the third verse on the ballet bar, and friends, I'm going to tell you, she did not leave that ballet bar, even after, achoo, blackout.

Nothing. She did not move. Why they staged it like that is beyond me. So, yes, you could ruin Guys and Dolls. After this was the incredible opera, The Most Happy Fella, which I starred in at the Caneo Players Theater in 1997, so if you want me to sign your program, I'll be more than happy to do that for you. I think our Joe was older than our Tony, and that's a whole other story, but I love The Most Happy Fella. Who did I play? Oh, thank you for asking me that. I played the pivotal role of Max, the photographer, and my job was to take the photo of Tony. I'm, you know, involved in the catfishing here, and the director, who was also the set designer, and I'm using these words very liberally, he said, okay, I'm building you a camera cart, and the camera cart was this big, heavy contraption that, I was like 13 years old, I had to roll across the stage, take a stool off of it, pull down like a background canvas, like on a window shade type thing, that never worked, and all he would do is just yell at me, and I was like, your shitty thing does not, it was literally like a Rube Goldberg set design, I couldn't believe it.

Anyway, beautiful show, and then the next show was How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying, which won the Pulitzer Prize, and of course, Green Willow, which we don't really discuss. Well, wait, we should. It was Loesser's first flop, and I hate to use that word. Green Willow seemed like a subpar Brigadoon. The show was fantastical, taking place in a magical town where the eldest male has to leave and wander. But what happens when one man doesn't want to do that? The answer is not much, because Green Willow closed after 97 performances. Flat, dull, stodgy, these were the reviews. Loesser had never flopped before. Yes, this score has some great moments, but it is nowhere near the brilliance of Loesser's 1950s musicals.

Why? Loesser was just not your fantasy writer. He was for schemers. Think Charlie, Nathan Detroit, Tony. People with real problems. That's not Green Willow's Gideon. But sure is J. Pierpont Finch, the character from Loesser's next musical, How to Succeed. Opening in 1962, Loesser was back on top. Tip top top. How to Succeed was everywhere. President Kennedy attended it, it catapulted Bobby Morse to stardom, and it took home the Pulitzer Prize, an elusive award to those in musical theater. Maybe Loesser was energized by a new creative working alongside him, a young dancer turned choreographer who was yearning to direct, to be the muscle on a production. His name was Bob Fosse. Fosse's dances on How to Succeed were brilliant and clever, but so were his dances that stopped the show in Pajama Game and Damn Yankees and New Girl in Town, Redhead, the list goes on and on.

But Fosse didn't just want to set the dances and then turn it over to Mr. Abbott or Jerome Robbins or Abe Burrows. He wanted control of all of it. Fosse had tried directing before, in 1959 when he took on Redhead. He didn't do too badly, because the slight show won Best Musical. So he began to look for another project, and a few did come his way. One was a musical based on the life of Fanny Brice, and the other was about a woman discovering her past lives through analysis. Fosse worked on those, shaped those, pushed those along, and contributed ideas to the staging and tone, all while not receiving any income for doing work on these two projects, which I'm sure by now you've guessed were to become Funny Girl and On a Clear Day You Can See Forever.

How did this happen? Fosse realized he needed to just be directing, not talking about it and hypothesizing, but doing it, so he decided that the next thing that came across his desk, no matter what it was, he would say yes to direct it, not even reading the script and score, just say yes so he can be directing. Enter Sam Spiewak. Sam Spiewak was a well-known writer of novels, newspapers, plays, musicals, and one of those people that was just a journeyman. He could get the job done. His most notable book was Kiss Me Kate with his wife Bella. Open your eyes, Bella! No, open your eyes, Papa! Thank you, that was from Rags, and now my monologue from Bloxy Blues. But that was pretty much it for Mr. Sam and Bella.

Yet like Loesser and Fosse, once you get bitten by the Broadway bug, it's really hard to give it up. Sam was an avid reader of history, and he was very intrigued by the brief moment that revolutionary war hero John Paul Jones was under the employ of Russia's Catherine II, who charged him to get Constantinople, defeating the Turks. So, with a fleet, Jones set off and did the job, and did it brilliantly, but watch your back, Johnny boy, because the jealous Potemkin, a Russian army hero who wanted power with Catherine, tells her that Jones did nothing and someone else did all the good stuff, so don't give him any credits. And so, yeah, you still with me? OK. Well, Sam was not one to be deterred by a story that really isn't all that interesting.

No, no, no, no, no. He thought he could turn it into a play. A play called Once There Was a Russian. Set in 1787, the play would tell the story of Catherine's attempts to welcome Jones. So, Spiewak writes it, and it goes into rehearsal with Albert Salmi as John, just name the guy Salami, Francois Reuss as Catherine, Catwoman Julie Newmar as Sura, and as Potemkin, Walter Matthau. I'm telling you, Sam, it's not funny. Words with a K in it are funny. Pickle. Pickle is funny. Any Sunshine Boys fans out there? Do you want to know something? The first thing I ever saw Walter Matthau in was The Sunshine Boys, and I actually thought he looked like that. I always thought that he just looked that old in life.

I didn't realize that, you know, it was makeup and stuff, but God, he is so good in that movie. Oh, and The Odd Couple. Think of him in The Odd Couple. It's 12 floors, not 11. Sorry. I also like him in Hello, Dolly. I think I'm the only person who does. Sorry, Walter. And like so many other people who said they were right when everyone else said they were wrong, Sam, well, Sam didn't know what that felt like because the show opened and closed in one night. Here is the New York Times review.

[12:39] Robert W. Schneider: Sam Spiewak's new play looks and sounds like a farce, though it is described as a comedy. Regarded as a farce, it is ponderous and formula-ridden, and regarded as a comedy, it is a farce in the pejorative sense. Invoking such personages of history as Catherine the Great and John Paul Jones as well as Potemkin, it manages to reduce them to the commonplaces of Broadway. Mr. Spiewak's story has a historic basis, just as it has a bright comic idea. In 1787, Catherine made a triumphal tour of the Crimea, which Potemkin arranged for her. The Russians were having trouble with the Turks, and eventually the American Revolutionary officers were hired by the Empress to be one of her admirals. It is Mr. Spiewak's notion that Potemkin, no longer Catherine's prime favorite, sought to win his way back into her graces while using his arts as an intriguer to bedevil and discredit Jones.

With freshness and imagination, this invention might have paid dividends, but Potemkin is made to be yet another comic conman with a pseudo-Russian accent. Jones is treated like a stuffy booby, and Catherine, though still sharp-witted, is a lusterless old party. And all concerned with Once There Was a Russian should have known that it was in deep trouble when it could think of nothing for a second act curtain except Potemkin on his knee delivering a prayer, ending, quote, After all, Lord, you are a Russian too.

[14:00] Robert W. Schneider: This is where one would say, you know what, it doesn't work, let's move on. A phrase that will be repeated by many other people involved with this show, but Spiewak thought it could be improved. Yes, yes it could. With music. That's what this show was missing. Music. And really, the main reason why he thought this show would not work would be fixed by musicalizing it. The original play had one set, it was stuffy, it was claustrophobic, you can't laugh on a set like that, but a musical has to be open. Let's air out this show, baby! Now, I will say, it was smart of Spiewak in some ways to keep the story afloat because it's a story about the U.S. meets USSR. Calm down, chess fans. The Yanks and the Ruskies. But not done in any real harmful way because the show is looking back over 100 years later. An audience that was amidst the Cold War.

[14:46] Robert W. Schneider: People were convinced that they would all perish in a nuclear war between America and Russia. This might be a laugh they needed. It seemed like every night there was a story about Russians and their attempt to dominate the U.S. of A. and take democracy away from American families. So this might be the laugh that's needed. Dr. Strangelove did it, and Bye-Bye Birdie did it well. And seriously, the Bye-Bye Birdie movie with Ann-Margaret. What is that? Like, what is that movie? I don't remember anything except that there was a turtle that was on meth. That's all I remember about that. Do you remember that? And then they gave the meth to the Russian conductor to speed up things? Like, what was that?

And why was Janet Leigh wearing a black wig? I have so many questions. Why couldn't they get Chita Rivera to be in the movie? Or Rita Moreno? I don't know. Anyway, Frank Loesser was looking for a new project, and the great playwright Alfred Urie suggested to him that he look at this show that closed in one night because there was musical potential. So Loesser did, and Loesser was intrigued, and he wanted to hire a director as soon as possible. And yes, Loesser could also hire the director because Loesser would also be the producer. We forget this, but Frank Loesser was a smart-ass businessman. MTI, Music Theatre International? Frank Loesser. The music man? Frank Loesser producer. So Loesser and co-producer Alan Whitehead began the initiation of securing a director, and he offered it to Bob Fosse.

And Fosse, who said he would pretty much accept anything, did. It was Frank Loesser and Sam Spiewak. How bad could it be? Did Fosse even need to read the script or listen to the score? Nope. He jumped on because he knew he had to have a show to direct, and he would later say, once I'd heard the score and read the book, I knew we had trouble. But I still thought I could pull it off. So what is the story? Well, the show opens with a monologue. Yes, a monologue, filling in the blanks for the audience. And who will tell the story? The naive American? No. It will be the Machiavellian Potemkin, and he will then introduce himself in song.

[17:08] ♪ Musical number: "The Lord, I Am a Very Religious Man" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[20:45] Robert W. Schneider: I am a very religious man, designed me to rule, but mischievously did not give me the proper royal parents. So many more than just a cost to verify. I am a very religious man, designed me to rule, but mischievously did not give me the proper royal parents. So many more than just a cost to verify. So Potemkin wants to marry Catherine, and then become emperor, which scares Catherine's counsel, so they plot on how they can break up this little problem. Lucky for them, Catherine has sent for American military genius John Paul Jones, and he will win the war for them. The first time Jones sets eyes on Catherine is when she is in the bathtub. Nyet nyet, nyet nyet. Here's that scene.

[22:07] ♪ Musical number: "Admiral, Whatever You May Have Heard" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[24:23] Robert W. Schneider: Catherine will insist that Potemkin work with John Paul Jones on defeating the Turks, but Potemkin is jealous of Jones and fears that Jones will seduce Catherine, leaving him powerless. Maybe someone could seduce Jones before he could seduce Catherine. So Potemkin enlists the nymphomaniac and many times married Sura, who Potemkin wants to take as a mistress. What a cad. I do love the stage directions when they first kiss. It says they kiss, they pant, they kiss, they pant. Now, my historians out there, had this show come to Broadway, this might have been the first time a scatological reference was made in a song. The song "To Your Health," which was a toasting scene, had this verse.

[25:03] ♪ Musical number: "To Your Health" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[25:46] Robert W. Schneider: Potemkin gets an audience with Jones and finds Jones to be a dullard, pious, victorious, virtuous, boring, condescending. Today he would have his own show on MSNBC, but for now he's in Pleasures and Palaces. To loosen him up for a seduction, Potemkin gets him drunk, then attempts to frame Jones, saying he violated Sura. When he sobers up, Sura tries to convince Jones he did take advantage of her, but she loved it. They sing this song.

[26:13] ♪ Musical number: "In Your Eyes" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[28:02] Robert W. Schneider: Yet Sura is a nympho with a heart of gold because she reveals all to Jones and to punish her, Potemkin ends Act 1 by throwing her down a chute. Yes, as she is singing, the floor opens up and down she goes. What a curtain! Act 2 opens and Potemkin gets a great song about his passion to fight.

[28:24] ♪ Musical number: "Barabanchik" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[29:33] ♪ Musical number: "Don't Let the Courage in My Heart" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[30:09] Robert W. Schneider: And then Sura is overcome with guilt and crawls out of her literal hole and goes to confess, but Potemkin is one step ahead. He disguises himself as a priest and hears her confession.

[30:20] Sura: Your holy excellency.

[30:22] Potemkin: Yes, my child?

[30:24] Sura: I have sinned.

[30:26] Potemkin: Who hasn't?

[30:27] Sura: Do you know Prince Potemkin?

[30:29] Potemkin: A good man. A good man. A great man. I truly adore him.

[30:35] Sura: I have sinned with him.

[30:37] Potemkin: Did he sin with you?

[30:39] Sura: Of course.

[30:40] Potemkin: It's a fine theological point. Whose was the sin?

[30:43] Sura: How can you talk of theological points? I am in torment.

[30:47] Potemkin: Perhaps you are in torment not because you have sinned too much but because you have not sinned enough.

[30:54] Sura: Not enough?

[30:55] Potemkin: Who knows how much is enough? Who knows?

[30:58] Sura: Your excellency. Holy excellency. I don't think I've made myself clear. If I tell you that I killed my husband.

[31:07] Potemkin: That was very naughty.

[31:09] Sura: And not more than an hour later I committed the sin of adultery and fornication.

[31:15] Potemkin: Simultaneously?

[31:16] Sura: Are they not one in the same sin?

[31:19] Potemkin: Are they a sin?

[31:20] Sura: What?

[31:22] Potemkin: The real question is was the sin enjoyable?

[31:26] Sura: Utterly. He was a beast. I was a beast.

[31:29] Potemkin: You are fortunate.

[31:31] Sura: Fortunate?

[31:32] Potemkin: Not very many sinners enjoy their sins. They don't know how.

[31:36] Potemkin: Describe what happened. Every delicious moment. He kissed you. He fondled you.

[31:43] Sura: I am so confused.

[31:45] Potemkin: Of course. My child.

[31:47] Sura: It was so clear when he talked to me.

[31:50] Potemkin: Who?

[31:51] Sura: My saint. Saint Jones.

[31:53] Potemkin: He talked to you? Is that all you did? Talk?

[31:56] Sura: No.

[31:57] Potemkin: So? I thought so.

[32:00] Sura: He purified me.

[32:02] Potemkin: Let's call a spade a spade.

[32:04] Sura: He's a pure man. A truly noble man.

[32:07] Potemkin: How many times did he purify you?

[32:09] Sura: His eyes are with me still.

[32:12] Potemkin: Still? These foreigners. Must be true what they say about Americans.

[32:17] Robert W. Schneider: Well, uh, that's scene three of act two. And nothing really happens after that till the end of the show when Potemkin reveals all. Jones gets to take Sura back to America, but Sura refuses to go. She loves Potemkin, but Potemkin was just executed by the angry Catherine. Or was he? You see, he fakes his death, takes Sura, and moves to America under a new name. Arnold. Benedict Arnold. The end.

[32:42] Robert W. Schneider: So, in the fall of 1963, the team sat down to write HOLY RUSSIA! Exclamation point. Then later called XLOVER. And then finally called PLEASURES AND PALACES, which comes from John Howard Payne's 1823 song Home Sweet Home. Mid pleasures and palaces, though we may roam, be it ever so humble, there is no place like home. A charm from the sky seems to hollow us there, which seeks through the world as ne'er met with elsewhere. That's really beautiful. I should have done that with an Irish accent.

[33:11] Robert W. Schneider: Pleasures and Palaces. Ironically, the three titles were all emblematic of the shows they were trying to create. Not really unified or together. HOLY RUSSIA! would be perfect for Bob Fosse's version, which he would call A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Imperial Palace. XLOVER was perfect for the realistic story Spiwak was creating, which was filled with Russian irony, and the lush-sounding Pleasures and Palaces was Lesser's way of veering into opera and operetta territory with his score.

[33:38] Robert W. Schneider: See, the muscle wins out. Fosse put it a little more succinctly. We were all doing things. Spiwak was doing a Shavian comedy, Lesser was doing an opera, and I was doing a Russian version of Forum. Lesser would budget the show for $450,000, with an opening of May 10th, 1965 at the L'Enfantin Theatre. The L'Enfantin? Can't get to New York? Don't worry. United Artists will be doing the cast recording.

[34:04] Robert W. Schneider: It would also be joining a Come As You Are season, which discussed how the upcoming season would feature a lot of real-life characters in musicals, including Ben Franklin, Fanny Bryce, Steve Brody, who's the lead of the musical Kelly, but then listen to the other shows that were slated that didn't come in in 1965. Are you ready for this? Diamond Orchard about the Perrons, Citizen Hearst about William Randolph Hearst, and musicals about Paul Gauguin, Anastasia, Henry VIII, Coco Chanel, The Fitzgeralds, and get this, Alexander Hamilton. Yes, there was a Hamilton musical before Hamilton.

[34:44] Robert W. Schneider: I would love to know who wrote these shows. Pleasures and Palaces would be joining the 1964-1965 Broadway season, which included Fiddler on the Roof, Golden Boy, Ben Franklin in Paris, Bajor, I Had a Ball, Do I Hear a Waltz, Flora, The Red Menace, and The Roar of the Grease Paint. Fiddler would be the prime example of perfect construction, but the others were all serviceable, especially living under the shadow of Hello Dolly and Funny Girl. Yet why did they get to Broadway and Pleasures and Palaces does not? Well, because despite the quality of some of the above shows, they were unified, united in tone.

[35:18] Robert W. Schneider: The best example of this is the casting of Pleasures and Palaces. Very early on, because the show took place in the 1700s, the three authors felt, or I should say the three creatives felt that the European actors were needed to be cast to give it that authenticity of heightened language. I heard that there was this thing called acting where you pretend, but you're… okay, never mind. Potemkin was a star role, theatrical and grand, and Bob Fosse had an idea, one that had Fosse and Frank Lesser sitting in a London hotel bar waiting, waiting, waiting to meet Richard Harris.

[36:02] Robert W. Schneider: The Academy Award-nominated Irishman was very clearly up and coming. He had made a splash in the sporting life as a bitter coal miner, and he was a hoot. Could he be Potemkin? Gwen Verdon remembers. There's a grand staircase that comes down into the lobby of the Carnot. Frank and Bob were sitting in the lobby when Harris made his entrance down the stairs. He did scenes from Richard III, bits and pieces of every Shakespearean role he ever played. He sang Irish songs all in the stuffy lobby of the Carnot Hotel. Harris was terrific. Frank and Bob were glued to the spot. I said, weren't you embarrassed? They said, oh no, we loved it. And then Harris declined the show.

[36:38] Robert W. Schneider: So who else was around? The newspapers of the time report that over 200 names were considered for the role of Potemkin, and it eventually went to a man named Alfred Marks. And he kind of looks like Stans Bornek. He was incredibly posh, and if Tom Stoppard was writing this musical, he would sound good. But they went for Sam Spiewak, who has an American ear, as does Lesser. It's like playing Beethoven on a synth. Yes, it can be done, but put them together and it's not so hot. The good thing about Marks was that this team could make him an American star. He would be that thing that everybody wanted to see. Who was this new actor who was so good that he beat out tons of other American actors? So they're going to try to make this into a star vehicle, a debut.

[37:16] Robert W. Schneider: For Catherine, they secured High Hazel. Yes, yes, yes, the High Hazel. Yes, you know, from Lock Up Your Daughters. She played Mrs. Squeezum. She actually was very notable in London and could also be like an Alfred Marks. And sadly, she never got that opportunity because not only was Pleasures and Palaces her only Broadway-bound musical, but she died only a few years later choking on a steak. At least she went doing what she loved. Now, if the creative team kept this posh elegance in all its casting, it would make sense. But for the supporting characters of John Paul Jones, somehow he's now supporting in his own story, John Paul Jones and Sir the Nymphomaniac Temptress, they got rid of that European rule and instead went for John McMartin, who had just flopped with Fosse on The Conquering Hero, and the woman who exuded exotic sensuality, Phyllis Newman.

[38:07] Robert W. Schneider: Yes, the go-to musical comedy heroine of this era, Phyllis Newman as Surah. From a Surah! From a Surah! Thank you. Phyllis Newman was probably the biggest name of the group, not for Subways or for Sleeping, which was dubbed Theaters or for Napping, but because she was a fixture on game shows like What's My Line and programs like This Was The Week That Was, and her PR team did a good job promoting her, but her agent tried to get her more cash, saying she was a big TV star and the production team said we don't give a shit, she's a good performer and we don't give a damn about TV stardom. My, how things have changed.

[38:41] Phyllis Newman: She wasn't bitter in this interview. They began to tell me how wonderful it was to have a TV star in the show, since I could make appearances in the right places and get publicity for the production. I think they had already set me on about five local shows in Detroit before I picked up the pen. Have you ever seen her on any of these game shows? First of all, Andrea Martin does an amazing impression of Phyllis Newman on talk shows, and it's the best thing ever, so if you get the chance, please make sure to check that out. I think you can find it on YouTube. I always loved watching those game shows, especially To Tell The Truth. If you remember To Tell The Truth, the four celebrities would have to grill contestants, and Peggy Cass always took that game very, very seriously. It was like, Peggy, it's just a game, but she'd be like, number seven, what would be your mother's name? Thank you. Number two, what book did you write?

[39:43] Robert W. Schneider: So, I don't know. I like Peggy Cass. Now, Fosse, she's not in this show, by the way, Fosse was usually so good in casting and unifying a whole world. I think an older Fosse would have had enough confidence in himself to make all four American musical comedy stars and save the piss-elegant casting for John Dexter and Peter Hunt. And by that logic, it really should have been Burt Law as Potemkin and Barbara Cook as Catherine. But Fosse would soon regret his casting of Marx, and more on that later. Lesser buried himself in writing the score and seemed to have fun playing in a whole new world. Eventually, only 22 of the 55 numbers written for the show would be used. A lot of songs, yes. A lot of inspiration? Not necessarily.

[40:22] Robert W. Schneider: However, his little notes on the sheet music exemplified his joy working on this show. Under the genre heading of Sex Fandango in Lesser's compositions was a cut song called Neither the Time or Place. He signed songs, quote, Lesser Bizet, and directed singers to, quote, breathe, you buggers. Then there were some songs that did not make it in, and these are just some of the titles for you. Stick this up your fez. Sora the Coloratura and Must Have a Camel. I've been smoking all morning and I still must have a camel. I'm sure that was very funny at the time.

[40:57] Robert W. Schneider: As Lesser worked, he thought that the breakout song of the show, the one that could be a pop song, would be called Far, Far, Far Away. Here it is.

[41:07] ♪ Musical number: "Far, Far, Far Away" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

[42:33] Robert W. Schneider: I, on the other hand, actually happen to like this song called Truly Love. I know that I am truly loved and that every moment the man is all mine. I know that I am truly loved and that every moment the man is all mine.

[44:19] ♪ Musical number ♪

[46:54] Robert W. Schneider: As rehearsals were about to begin, Fawcett began crafting his choreography for the show. Like his other musicals, this was an exotic locale filled with iconic imagery that can't be Fawcett-ed. Luckily, Fawcett had some inspiration. The Bolshoi Ballet, yes, the famous Russian dance troupe, performed in New York City through a cultural exchange with America to lessen tensions. I don't know what we sent them, like, in return that was culturally significant. Maybe Buddy Hackett? But there was Fawcett, watching the ballet, learning about their styles. Gwen Verdon, Fawcett's wife and muse, also worked on Pleasures and Palaces with him and remembered a number that was loosely called the Fuck Up Army, a variation on the army number that Fawcett did in The Conquering Hero. Gwen?

[47:37] Gwen Verdon: The Bolshoi had just appeared in New York for the first time. They did so many tricks that Frank and Bob decided they should come up with something in response. So Bob made all kinds of jokes. One man did a great big jumping split, at which point with sound effects his pants would rip. Another man would do a cartwheel and his hampies would come undone. A man would pull out a knife from his teeth and his false teeth would come out with it. We didn't have enough men, so after various protests, they finally dressed up the girls like men and put mustaches on them. Catherine Doby taught them how to do Kazatskis. The Kazatskis, that's the dance thing where they go low to the ground and they kick their legs, you know, hey, hey, hey, I'm doing it now, but it's not pretty.

So Fawcett could take the traditions and use them in his zany world. The problem is that Lesser and Spiewak were not in that zany world. They were crafting something of substance. For them, they were into the world of romanticism, and one of their great songs that they wrote to show that was a song called Thunder and Lightning that John Paul, sorry, that Potemkin was supposed to sing with Sora while she rode the horse, a road A horse.

[48:58] Robert W. Schneider: You are thunder and lightning coming to ravish my primitive soul. You are thunder and lightning, you are a tempest beyond all control. You are thunder and lightning, heaven and hell with your arms around me tightening. And it is oh so voluptuously frightening that I cannot tell the chill from the warm. You are thunder and lightning, and I love being caught in the storm.

[51:10] Robert W. Schneider: The problem is that the way they did this on stage was the horse was mechanical with a large extension cord behind it, like literally you could see the extension cord on it. And the actor who was playing Potemkin had to flip a switch and then Sura, who was Phyllis Newman, on the horse, would just sort of go up and down while Potemkin walked alongside her because they both couldn't fit on it. They couldn't fit on the horse at the same time. I wonder why Thunder and Lightning didn't work. The show was ready to start rehearsals and in January of 1965, Alfred Marx and High Hazel came over from London after they finished the hit musical Oi Govna, the bobbies are in the fizzle again! Not real, but it sounds like a real British musical, doesn't it?

Rehearsals began in February and it was a pretty harmonious event. Lesser was in good spirits and would throw cigarette packs at the cast and he told them throw them at Fawcett when he was choreographing like a lion with a piece of meat. Lesser would walk around handing candy out to folks. Everyone seems pretty happy. Fawcett felt a little out of his league with the book of the show. At the first rehearsal, as he consistently tripped over the Russian names, he finally got a laugh when he said, you should have Stanislavski direct this, not some Norwegian boy. Funny, yes, and perhaps with a bit of truth underlying it. In Dance World, however, he was excelling, and I wish some of the dances he had created were preserved or at least featured in Fawcett.

In Fawcett's notes on the project, which are at the Library of Congress, he made some fascinating notes about what he wanted the show to look like. Things like Mambo Shoulder Shake, Russian style. Marcel Marceau Walk, Russianized. Russian Dan Daly, eccentric. Is this where I tell you that Dan Daly used to like cleaning people's houses dressed as a French maid? I don't know if this is the time for it. Well, call me, I'll tell you what happened.

[53:00] Robert W. Schneider: Even the beginning of the show was unique in Fawcett's vision. After the overture, the curtain went up and the stage was dark. And in the dark, you could hear far away marching, like soldiers marching. As the marching got closer, suddenly you heard counterpoint noises like claps and snapping. And as the lights slowly came up, there was pretty much the whole cast dressed as soldiers, and then percussion was added in. And as the lights grew brighter and brighter, the soldiers were doing their marching. Yes, but also kick steps. When everything was at full, the orchestra came back in, and suddenly we were in Potemkin's world as his army was returning. What a great way to open a show. Ironically, the first day of rehearsal at the Variety Arts Building on 46th Street, right above where Half a Sixpence was rehearsing, was also the day that the producers were burning the Kelly set, a one-performance flop about another real-life person.

We love a parallel. This is from an article from the first day that ran before the opening in Detroit. New York, two days after a musical show named Kelly fell flat on its face after one performance and lost $650,000 in one unmagical performance. A group of brave people met in a shacky old building a block away from the scene of the crime and started spending another half million on another titanic show business gamble. It is to be called Pleasures and Palaces, and is a Frank Lesser and Sam Spiewak effort that will open for the first time anywhere Monday at the Fisher Theatre in Detroit. After a month of tender consideration by critics and audiences at the Fisher, Pleasures and Palaces will open on Broadway to see if there is really no place like home.

[54:43] Robert W. Schneider: Pleasures and Palaces began that day not so long ago with a lone dancer in a black leotard who wandered into 302 and began doing knee bends while regarding herself critically in the wall-to-wall mirror. Within half an hour by 12.30pm there was a mass of young ladies in strange get-ups and young men trying to grow their beards. Alfred Marks, a British import for the lead in Pleasures, wandered in looking very British indeed in a black sports coat with a crest on the heart pocket, red and black regimental tie, and suede shoes. It's my virgin American appearance, he rumbled. Marks has a voice with the resonant rumble of a cement truck. The female lead showed up next, another British star, High Hazel.

Miss Hazel is a tall woman with blonde hair piled to make her taller and wearing something that can only be described as a mink cravat. She was very gay. It's a lovely day, she announced. I'd rather go for a walk. You can always count on my opening day being wonderful when I would rather be holidaying. Then Lesser himself bustled in, a short heavy man with the earnest look of a supermarket manager preparing for the morning's opening. Under his dark suit coat he wore a comfortable green sweater.

[56:03] Robert W. Schneider: So we got to talking to Bob Fosse, the dance director and stager for Pleasures. Fosse looked pretty good for a fellow who had just swallowed a lighted cigarette. He often leads the dance troupe with one in his mouth. It didn't do any harm but it sure tasted terrible, he said. Everyone is a little nervous today, including me. A half a million bucks is a big responsibility. I try not to think about it. Fosse is a key man in the Pleasures production and the month at rehearsal that lay ahead would be difficult. The equity rules require that dancers and singers—you don't call them chorus girls and chorus boys anymore—get a day off each week. But the rule doesn't apply to Fosse. He staggered rehearsals so he would always have a group going.

Next door at the Edison Hotel, 20 seconds away, Fosse had a room for naps and showers. He had his own set of keys to the variety artists so he could go in late at night to brood about new ideas. As it was, the working day ran from 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. with a lunch break. The 35-cent cheese sandwiches at the Take Five lunch counter down the street a couple of doors were very popular.

[57:20] Robert W. Schneider: On the opening day of rehearsals, suddenly the milling about, the chattering settled down. Fawcett had called for the singers to do their dance skit that goes with one of their songs. So rehearsal had begun. The singers leaped energetically through their routine while the regular dancers lurked critically on the edges. There was a general feeling that you can't start off a half-a-million dollar musical without some kind of formality. So producer Alan B. White head-gathered himself together at the head table and announced, Welcome to Russia. We have waited a long time for today and now we are waiting to see what you're going to do with it. Lesser also decided to make an opening statement seeking inspiration in the cracked plaster on the back wall. Um, uh, this is a collaboration. Anyway, you know, we develop a personal amity. If you have problems or need money or something, just let us know.

[58:27] Robert W. Schneider: In the midst of their rehearsal, Lesser suddenly appeared with a look of anguish on his face but it faded quickly into one of mild approval. I was listening to you through the walls and it seemed to me you were all sharps and flats, he said. But it's just a tricky wall. Lesser has been nibbling at the edges of the musical problems on and off for three years. Spiwak has been involved with the story for more than five years. The elaborate scenery has been built. The principles have been sought out over land and sea and gathered together. Half a million dollars have been raised. Is it a hit?

[59:07] Robert W. Schneider: Or is it a stinker? Monday, we'll know. Then came the gypsy run-through when the show was played for New York friends and colleagues on a bare stage in rehearsal clothes. A test audience before out-of-town audiences. And they liked it. They loved it. They were complimentary, enthusiastic, enchanted. Or so they said, because once it flopped, many people that were there said, I told them it wouldn't work. Then they got to the Fisher Theater in Detroit with a scheduled opening of March 11, 1965. The Fisher Theater, which opened in 1961, was home to pre-Broadway tryouts of Fiddler on the Roof, Hello, Dolly! and Oliver. This would be a good place to get their bearings on Robert Randolph's dazzling sets and Freddie Whittop's opulent costumes. Well, everyone to get their bearings but Albert Marks. Here's a recollection from Gwen Verdon.

[59:55] Gwen Verdon: Alfred had to make an entrance from the top of the staircase. They put so much glow tape down that the people in the balcony could see it. Frank, who was in the balcony for one of the performances, came running down to Michael Sinclair, the stage manager. What's all that glow tape up there for? And Michael, who was very British, said, that's so Mr. Marks won't be nervous before his entrance because he's up in the air and he's afraid of heights. Frank said, but you can see all that tape from the balcony. And Michael said, yes, sir, I know it looks like Kennedy Airport. Frank just loved that. Any anger he might have had dissolved. From that point on, he'd say, let's take it from the Kennedy Airport entrance of Mr. Marks.

Marks was just not a musical comedy clown. Marks was not that, not in this musical at least. Today we ask, how could we not know that? And we have to remember musicals back then didn't workshop for years or have 40 callbacks. You got what you got. You ran, hoped you'd fly, then move on. Could they get around it? Was he that bad? But besides that, the show was okay to open and the buzz was hot. This was the most anticipated musical of the 1964-1965 season. Yes, yes, indeed. This was Pulitzer Prize winning genius Frank Loesser, an innovative visionary Bob Fosse with a Sam Spiewak script. Plus it was going to be opulent, beautiful, and its red poster with a Russian mustache and a Ushanka promised a fun time, one where we could all giggle at those crazy riskies. Now the show opened, and in came the reviews, and they were not looking for glasnost any time soon.

[1:01:38] Robert W. Schneider: Critics' reaction was best summarized by the Detroit News, which simply said, Loesser, Loesser. I am sure petty critics wondered when they could bust out that low-hanging fruit. They also threw out such witticisms as Admiral on the Roof, and A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Imperial Palace, which was Bob Fosse's favorite. Papers across the United States ran news that the show was in trouble, but not hopeless. The show was in trouble, and what happens when a show is in trouble? Well, first it's blaming the design, despite the fact that it always received applause at both the top of Act 1 and Act 2. So if it's not the design, what is it? Some outside perspective would help, and soon the troops were flying to Detroit all with advice.

In came Betty Comden, Adolph Green, Abe Burrows, Cy Fuehrer, and Loesser's wife Jo, who said the show would be saved if they just redid all the orchestrations. Once again, we're debating the ornaments, but there is no tree. The major criticism that could be handled quickly was to remove Marks as Potemkin, and get someone who could carry the show. This is ironic, because Marks actually got really strong reviews. So the calls went out in Detroit. Marks was going to be let go, but who could replace him on such short notice? You need someone vain, glorious, Machiavellian, a scoundrel that everyone loved. Like Jack Cassidy. She loves me, Jack Cassidy. The man who made Cole Porter… oh wait, I'm going to tell you that story for the After Dark show.

Send me $5, I'll tell you the story. With 15 suitcases in tow, Jack Cassidy came to Detroit and assumed the role of Potemkin. And he was good. Very good. The show did feel much more improved, but by this point, the critics had come, and they said they were not going to re-review a show they didn't like, because the problem just wasn't Marks. It was everything. Well, the writing was on the wall. Or on the Kremlin, so we can stay appropriate. The reviews were not good. United Artists pulled out of doing the cast recording, and it was clear this show just wasn't working. In its attempt to be all things, it ended up being none, providing an evening of dull entertainment. Who really cared about John Paul Jones and Catherine II?

They were not intriguing historical figures. Also, critic Peter Felicia brings up a real good point about Cold War musicals, especially ones that said America good, Russians bad. He asked why write a musical in which the Russian emerges as more successful than the American? Silk Stockings was smart enough to do the reverse. Americans in the 60s couldn't be expected to root for a rogue like Potemkin, however so-called lovable, considering he represented the enemy. Plus, by making Jones a supporting character to Straight and Arrow, you found yourself wanting to see less of the American and more of the Russian. Somewhere, Joseph McCarthy just woke up in a cold sweat. Probably because he woke up with Jerome Robbins up his asshole, saying, DON'T OUT ME!

What makes this even stranger is that this was not an unknown entity. They did this show. They did this story. And it had flopped. Badly. One night, on Broadway, closing on opening night, why did they think, oh, we just need to add more locations and a few songs? No matter how pretty the house, it doesn't work if there is no foundation. Look, Spiewak had his chance with it, and so closing was probably for the best. Loesser, always the realist, knew that financially it would just bleed out. Plus, he still had an amazing reputation to rest on, so he didn't mind closing the show. But Fosse was different. Fosse wanted to be the muscle. And how much muscle can you exert when your show is being closed out of town?

Loesser never had a show closed out of town, so what did Fosse do to him? How bad is Fosse? This is not a great reputation for someone seeking to be a director. Fosse pulled Loesser aside and begged them not to close the show. In fact, Fosse was so sure he'd be able to fix it that he was willing to take the show to Boston with his own money, using his kid's college fund to do so. He would say, so the kid doesn't go to Vassar. That's how much faith he had. Not so much in the show, but in himself. This is a big moment in Fosse's career, and it's one we don't discuss enough. Here he was, faced with a major issue. This wasn't a temperamental actor or a song in Act 2 that's not working. This is a whole show.

But he believed in himself, sure enough, arrogant enough, whatever enough, that he could make it work. When we look at all his innovations, from choreography to editing, a man with less confidence in themselves might not go there. Maybe that's what makes a genius, confidence in oneself. And Loesser? Loesser believed him. Loesser believed that Fosse could save it. Loesser the writer, not Loesser the producer. Loesser the producer knew it was best to walk away, and with Loesser losing half a million dollars, the closing notice was posted for April 10th. Boston would not happen, and the Lunt-Fontanne would never see a marquee that read Pleasures and Palaces. Had it come in, I don't think it would have given shows like Fiddler, Golden Boy, or Do I Hear a Waltz a run for their money.

Maybe out of respect for Loesser, he would have gotten a nomination for best score, knocking out Half a Sixpence, but that would be it. Fosse would never beat out Robbins' work on Fiddler, and Jack Cassidy might have run against himself, because he would have also been nominated for Fade Out and Fade In.

[1:06:45] Robert W. Schneider: If you remember at the beginning, I told you about how this show gave birth to the Fosse dancer, that special tribe of people that understand Fosse's unconventional dance styles, lines, and pictures. And they loved him, and he loved them. Yes, today we know how problematic many of his actions were, even by his own admittance. However, this group loved him. One dancer, Alice Evans, was asked to understudy Catherine, and she was terrified to do so, because she had terrible scars up and down her arms, and Catherine had to be bare-armed. She felt she could not do this. Gently, Fosse brought her out, adjusted the lighting, and said, I don't see any scars, and she ended up understudying Catherine.

So, how does this give birth to Fosse's style, Fosse's pack, Fosse's tribe? Well, there was a number in the show called Tears of Joy, and it was a courtly number, a formal number, and it just laid there, night after night, but Fosse knew he could fix it. So, every day, they would work on adjusting Tears of Joy, pushing it into a more satirical world, and they knew it was going to be a showstopper, except the closing notice was posted before Fosse could finish it. On the day a closing notice is posted, all rehearsals are canceled, because what do you have to be practicing for? But Fosse's dancers loved and cared about him so much, they said, Bob, we're not going to leave rehearsal until this is done, until you finish it.

And if it were ever to be used down the line, it would need orchestration, so the dancers, these broke dancers, offered to chip in and pay on their own for the complete orchestrations for this number, as a gift to Fosse. On an empty stage in Detroit, they finished the number, and it was wonderful. How else could they celebrate their fearless leader, the one who loved them, pushed them, helped them? They recreated, from memory, on the spot, a collage of Fosse's other dances, doing things like Steam Heat, Who's Got the Pain, Rich Kid's Rag, Irby Fitch, all showing this genius, their love for his work, the community, the Fosse community, got codified on this show. And it's appropriate that, out of a dark, depressing moment, like a show closing, Fosse found some joy.

In this moment, the muscle shifted. Not in Pleasures and Palaces, but in the industry. Fosse felt invincible and plunged into his next work, a musicalization of Federico Fellini's movie Nights of Cabiria, to star Gwen Verdon and John McMartin, who felt he was Fosse's bad luck charm and that Fosse wouldn't want to use him again after this. Ironically, Fosse told McMartin he felt the same way, that McMartin wouldn't want to work with Fosse again. After Sweet Charity came Pippin, Chicago, Danson, the triple crown of directing in 1973 winning the Oscar, Emmy, and Tony, cinematic masterpieces like Cabaret and All That Jazz. I wonder if Fosse would have continued to create as ferociously as he did if he hadn't had this big knock with Pleasures and Palaces.

He knew he could do it now, he just had to prove it to the industry. Sam Spiewak died a few years later, and Frank Loesser had pre-deceased him, leaving behind a show he was working on, Senior Discretion Himself. You would think that would be the end of Pleasures and Palaces, but some interesting things happened to keep this show alive, albeit slightly. While In Your Eyes was the only song that was published from the show, singers took Loesser's songs and they popped up on various albums. Blue Pair albums released a record of demo songs, with Look to the Lilies on the other side, and individual songs were recorded by various folks. Carol Ventura took on Thunder and Lightning, Truly Loved done by Tommy Steele, Jan Pierce doing To Be Home Again, and Lena Horne and Pearl Bailey performing the title song.

The oddest to me was Bargain Chick, sung by The Four Lads. As time went on, the Loesser estate just denied anyone asking to do the show, but that changed in 2013. Since Pleasures and Palaces, flops were more and more appreciated. Companies like Encores, Muftis, Musicals Tonight, Reprise out in Los Angeles, all searched the vaults to see what they could bring to audiences that might not be as known. Down in Irving, Texas, there is a company called Lyric Stage, and they do musicals, big musicals, and they were able to convince the Loesser estate to not only let them do Pleasures and Palaces, but it would have a cast of 43 and an orchestra of 40. It would be big, big, big. They approved, and in January of 2013, Pleasures and Palaces was seen again down in Irving, Texas.

The local papers asked, is Pleasures and Palaces a real pleasure, or just another walking dead from the Broadway crypt? And they felt it was very close to being an undiscovered gem. But that was it. No major real notice after that, and the only news that this production really got was that the actor playing John Paul Jones admitted in the press that he wouldn't kiss another man because it was against his religion. Okay, a few things, sir. You're in musicals, it's the 21st century, the kiss is a Russian kiss, not a sexual kiss, and last but certainly not least, fuck you. And on that happy note, we end our time in Russia knowing that while the show did not go on, Bob Fosse certainly did. Enjoy that muscle, Bob. You deserved it.

[1:12:06] Robert W. Schneider: Speaking of muscle, it cannot be denied that the greatest muscle in musical theater history was Stephen Sondheim. Everyone wanted to be Stephen Sondheim. Stephen Sondheim was put up on a pedestal, revered, worshipped, idolized. So what happens when the person everybody worships falls a little short? That's going to be our next episode, Stephen Sondheim's musical Bounce. See you then.