This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:06] David Armstrong: Welcome to another episode of Broadway Nation, the podcast that tells the remarkable story of how immigrant, Jewish, queer, and black artists invented the Broadway musical and how they changed America in the process.

[0:19] David Armstrong: I'm David Armstrong, and my guest today is author BEN WEST, who joins me to talk about his extraordinary new book, which is titled The American Musical: Evolution of an Art Form.

[0:31] David Armstrong: This is a comprehensive history of the American musical theater from its beginnings back in the 19th century through, as Ben terms it, its 20th century maturation, and then on up to the turn of the 21st century.

[0:45] David Armstrong: Along the way, the book sheds new light on a myriad of authors, directors, and craftspeople who worked on Broadway and beyond.

[0:52] David Armstrong: Much like this podcast, the book places a special emphasis on the musical's overlooked female and African American artists.

[1:00] David Armstrong: It also ventures beyond the strict boundaries of Broadway to focus on such outside influences as Minstrelsy, Vaudeville, Nightclubs, and Burlesque, and it explores the dynamic relationship between the American musical and the consciousness of the country that gave it birth.

[1:17] David Armstrong: BEN WEST is a musical theater artist and historian who was the creator of the extensive Timeline Wall exhibits at the Museum of Broadway.

[1:25] David Armstrong: In addition, he's worked in various capacities on Broadway, Off-Broadway, and regionally, and he created and directed the presentation Unsung Carolyn Lee for Lincoln Center's American Songbook Series.

[1:38] David Armstrong: As you may have noticed, this episode of Broadway Nation was released on a Monday rather than the usual Thursday, and to accommodate my teaching schedule at the University of Washington, that's a pattern that will likely continue through the rest of the spring.

[1:52] David Armstrong: And as always, I want to send out my heartfelt thanks to our devoted patron club members whose generous support helps to make this podcast possible, especially our longtime members Roger Clarice and Neil Hoyt.

[2:06] David Armstrong: If you would like to help support the creation of Broadway Nation, I'll have more information at the end of the episode about how you too can become a patron.

[2:14] David Armstrong: And finally, as you may hear, we had a little bit of internet audio issues during this recording, but in the editing process, I've tried to keep those to a minimum.

[2:23] David Armstrong: Now, here we go. Welcome Ben West to Broadway Nation.

[2:27] David Armstrong: It is my great pleasure to have you here today to talk about your new book, The American Musical: Evolution of an Art Form.

[2:34] BEN WEST: Thank you so much for having me. This is a major undertaking.

[2:38] BEN WEST: In fact, you call it a comprehensive history of an American art form.

[2:42] BEN WEST: I know that people will be impressed by what you've done with this book because it is so comprehensive, totally captivating.

[2:48] BEN WEST: And those two things don't always go together at the same time.

[2:52] BEN WEST: I'm thrilled, genuinely thrilled that you feel that way. Thank you so much.

[2:55] David Armstrong: So, what inspired you to take this on? 350 plus pages. You're covering virtually the entire history of not just the Broadway musical, but the American musical theater.

[3:05] BEN WEST: What inspired this? You know, I've always been quite passionate about the American musical, the musical stage.

[3:12] BEN WEST: Early in my career, I had been investigating lesser-known shows, lesser-known artists. I had always had a fairly strong grasp on older shows.

[3:23] BEN WEST: I'll use that term older shows because I'm talking basically mid-20th century. And I thought, oh, okay, I know, you know, I know about the form, as I think I would propose most people in that position do or in this position do.

[3:36] BEN WEST: And yet I didn't really know about the art form. And that's what I started to discover in the work I was doing, because I was gravitating, as I said, toward these lesser-known shows, and I was intrigued by either something about it or the way it was composed.

[3:52] BEN WEST: I don't mean music composed, but put together, assembled. And so I was essentially digging into them, seeing what was working, what was not, what was effective, what was ineffective.

[4:00] BEN WEST: And through doing that is when, at least for myself, I really started to understand the art form and specifically this art of musical storytelling, which I fear is not often discussed, this idea of musical storytelling being an art.

[4:15] BEN WEST: I was deeply interested to uncover its evolution, how it evolved, because that's what I had started to see in the work that I was doing just for myself on these smaller projects.

[4:24] BEN WEST: And that was around 2014, when this sort of, I wouldn't call it an epiphany, but when the activity I had been doing essentially coalesced into this very specific theme, the evolution of the American musical.

[4:34] BEN WEST: I just dove into an incredible amount of research around that and was deeply interested to uncover what actually happened.

[4:42] BEN WEST: Because we have a lot of superficial histories or celebrity histories, I sometimes call them. In many cases, they are historically inaccurate.

[4:50] BEN WEST: For example, one of the big ones is Oklahoma is the first integrated book musical or Show Boat is the first book musical. These are simply not true.

[4:57] BEN WEST: Those are not accurate statements. That's not something that I said, oh, that's the wrong statement at the time. So I was deeply interested to uncover actually what happened.

[5:07] BEN WEST: And I was especially interested in connecting it to the present and the future. As I say in the book, history is not merely facts and figures, it is prospects and possibilities.

[5:17] BEN WEST: I am deeply invested in this particular art form, the American musical, the musical stage. There is so much to be mined in understanding its evolution that I think could enhance the work that is being done today and in the future.

[5:30] BEN WEST: No matter what story someone wants to tell, as I also say in the book, there's no one way to make a musical, there's no limit to the stories one can tell, but there is an art, there is an established art to musical storytelling.

[5:41] BEN WEST: The recognition of that fact has gotten lost, I think, to a large extent. And I know we share this, the fascination with the continuum of the musical.

[5:53] BEN WEST: How it evolved is one long continuum. And I always talk about how this work has been handed down from artist to artist firsthand, like a medieval craft back in the day.

[6:04] BEN WEST: From literally just from one artist to the next, understanding that continuum, which is part of what your book helps us to do, is I think so helpful.

[6:12] BEN WEST: And as you say, for the future generation, you have to understand where it starts in order to reinvent it, I think.

[6:19] David Armstrong: I definitely agree. One has to have a thorough understanding of the art form to make conscious decisions about what one wants to do.

[6:26] BEN WEST: It's fascinating to me. When I was deep in the midst of this work already, I've done lectures and workshops, and I will occasionally ask people, especially young artists, what do they think of in terms of musical theater before, let's say 1970?

[6:40] BEN WEST: What's going on before 1970? And I get, I shouldn't say across the board, but often I will hear there's one story, there's one sound, there's weak women, female sopranos, nothing to do with politics, nothing to do with social issues.

[6:53] BEN WEST: And this is completely false. There are some shows that absolutely will fall into one or more of those categories without a doubt, but to make a blanket statement about what is happening on stage is completely false.

[7:05] BEN WEST: And I think also in what seems to be, with both emerging and established artists of the present, what seems to be a writing off of the shows pre non-1970, roughly, is such a disservice to one's own work because especially if one is an artist, a musical maker, a maker of musicals, the largest takeaway from the middle of the 20th century is not the story or what kind of show it is.

[7:32] BEN WEST: It's not, oh, I like Hammerstein and Rogers or I like Cole Porter. It is how the shows were being crafted and constructed.

[7:39] BEN WEST: Up until that point through up to roughly 1970, there is this concerted effort among a large swath of the community to better musical storytelling.

[7:47] BEN WEST: It is a decades-long process that was, oh wait, okay, we're using popular song or songs of a popular vernacular as part of the story.

[7:56] BEN WEST: So, okay, well, how can the song actually fit into the story? It didn't just happen in the 30s or in 1943, for example.

[8:03] David Armstrong: I know that you did some substantial work. You were a key figure in putting together the Museum of Broadway. How much of that research that you did simultaneously with creating this book? How did the two things relate to one another?

[8:16] BEN WEST: I'll say first, with regard to the museum, what I did for those who don't know, was the timeline walls. So those are 20 walls in the timeline section of the museum that trace the Broadway stage from the 1700s up to present day.

[8:30] BEN WEST: That project came about at the end of 2019, in December, actually, right before I started writing the book, I should say. But I had been working on the research for everything related to the book since 2014.

[8:42] BEN WEST: It was more so that the work I had been doing informed the museum. I would say primarily. There were some additional research that I did specifically related to the museum, which undoubtedly fed my overall knowledge and in some cases fed how I talked about something in the book.

[8:59] BEN WEST: But I would say it was primarily the book research that informed the museum. I will say they are two separate things though.

[9:07] BEN WEST: The subjects are two separate things. For example, the Museum of Broadway is very, per the directive from the two founders, entirely focused on the Broadway stage.

[9:16] BEN WEST: There is obviously a great deal of overlap with the American musical, but it's not a complete overlap, obviously, because the musical it's developed and matures primarily on Broadway, but it's not exclusive to the Broadway stage.

[9:29] BEN WEST: The museum was also a bit more of a higher level. I will say it was more of a facts and figures type of item in terms of what I was doing.

[9:37] BEN WEST: Well, you can't go into the detail that you go to into the book in a timeline that you're reading as you go through a museum, although there's incredible detail there, I have to say.

[9:44] David Armstrong: I've been there a couple of times, and I still feel like I haven't been able to absorb everything you've got on those walls there in the museum.

[9:51] BEN WEST: I am extremely proud of my walls for the museum.

[9:54] BEN WEST: Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm glad that you feel that way. And yes, there's definitely detail, and I attempted to be as comprehensive as possible with regards to the museum as well.

[10:03] BEN WEST: So, for example, in the museum, you have on my walls specifically, there are elements about nightclubs. There's a wall of minstrelsy, there's a wall of vaudeville, but it is at a mostly at a high level.

[10:14] BEN WEST: There's some elements where you get some nuggets, like for example, there's a box on one of the walls about Alma Sanders, a female composer from the teens and twenties, and talking about her life and the strange correlation between a satire of the sexes that she wrote and her own divorce.

[10:29] BEN WEST: There definitely are these great nuggets that people do not know. So it is something for everyone. If you are an avid musical theater fan and have great knowledge.

[10:37] David Armstrong: So even hopefully you found things that you did not.

[10:40] BEN WEST: Absolutely. There's always things like that. And it's so amazing. I'm part of it in doing this research is I'm sure you found the more you research it, the more you realize how much you don't know or how much you discovered that you never knew before.

[10:52] BEN WEST: It was just very exciting. And I'm always asking questions. I'm just deeply curious.

[10:56] BEN WEST: There were even instances where I would be looking for something in particular, perhaps on a newspaper page, and I would then come across an advertisement for something entirely different, which then I was like, oh, that's interesting.

[11:09] BEN WEST: And then I started researching that. And after 10 plus years, I have a good picture of it.

[11:16] David Armstrong: I know exactly what that's like. Those rabbit holes that you get led down and they're fascinating, and sometimes they're really productive, but it's like I'm supposed to be doing this, I'm not supposed to be doing this other thing that suddenly popped up.

[11:27] David Armstrong: You mentioned Alma Sanders, and I think one of the things about this book that is so aligned with this podcast, certainly, is your focus on trying to make sure that women who were very active get acknowledged in a way they don't usually get acknowledged, and black artists get acknowledged for the work that was actually there.

[11:45] David Armstrong: Again, you're talking about some people's perceptions of things which aren't entirely accurate. It's not that women were not involved in the American musical, which is what many people will tell you.

[11:55] BEN WEST: They're actually significant women all the way through your book, but most of the time they get lost in the shuffle.

[12:02] BEN WEST: Indeed, my goal, and hopefully, I was able to achieve that goal, is to present a comprehensive, accurate history.

[12:10] BEN WEST: It aims to really tell the story of this art form that is born on American shores and matures on American shores, thus the American musical. Some people ask me, is this exclusively American? As I say in the book, it's a melting pot of multiple mediums. There are global influences. The thing is that it is really cultivated and matured in America, principally in New York. Thus the American musical. Anyway, women, as you say, were working from the beginning, frankly. And especially in the early 1900s, which is a period I love. I love all the periods for different reasons. But this period in particular, the diversity of activity that's happening, and also the diversity of artists. There are a number of women composing music, writing libretto, writing lyrics, directing, producing.

Claire Cummer is one that does many things and was very successful. It's not just that they did something, that a woman wrote a show and this woman was here, but in many cases, the work they were doing was instrumental in furthering the form in the form's evolution.

[14:25] BEN WEST: Rita Johnson Young in particular and a show called Maytime, which is 1917. This is something, again, in the decades since that period, we're now so far removed from it. This is filed under the heading of quote unquote aberretta. And Maytime is not what one would think when they think operetta. And it was at the time called a play with music, which is very much what it was. Four acts, four different decades. It's over a span of time. I saw somewhere I can't remember, someone was talking about Showboat and said it's the first show that had a female lead character who ages over the course of the show. Which isn't absolutely not true. Maytime is an example of that. I didn't intend to mention that, but I just popped in my head.

This show is literally a play with music. There is a substantial in terms of the amount of it, libretto, and there are songs that are woven into the story. And in fact, this is in one of the chapters in the book, and there is dialogue. I have included dialogue, I've included lyrics from this particular show. This is not a matured work. It's not a substantial work in terms of the depth and three-dimensionality of the characters, but it's a comparatively mature work in terms of the context of the time, and it's pushing toward this idea of really integrating these elements, song dialogue, dance, into a single fluid story. And this one in particular involves a little bit of cynicism. There's discontent in it, there's alcohol.

Again, it's one of those overlooked items, and it is so important if we're actually going to look at how the art form evolved, this art form that we are doing today. And that show was a big hit. Huge, huge hit, and very influential because it was such a big hit.

[16:00] BEN WEST: Yeah, oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So all of the men who we hear about were influenced by Maytime. I mean, I don't know. I'm gonna Well, they couldn't help it be if everyone is influenced by what was a hit. Who's not influenced today by Hamilton? Every writer who will write a musical from now on will have some influence from Hamilton, whether they decide they hate it and want to do the opposite, it's still going to influence what they do. All of these hit shows, especially have impact.

[16:27] David Armstrong: I totally agree that they have impact. I'm just cautious about putting into an artist's mouth what they were influenced by.

[16:31] BEN WEST: Totally. We can't know for sure, but it's certainly, I think, a fair supposition. One of the things that's really interesting about the book is all of the text that you bring forward and include in the book that we've never seen before for so many shows that even for people really immersed in this, are mostly just a title that we've heard of before. And you obviously were able to go back and read these shows, find the original versions or several versions of them, and then you include excerpts from them in the book, which is really fascinating. Talk about that process and just your approach to that.

[17:03] BEN WEST: In terms of the approach, it being the discovery of the shows and then investigating either copyrighted material or if it's published, I looked at published material, but in most or many, I'm not sure, cases, I was looking at either manuscript material or copyright deposits, which was its own exciting adventure. So that came about naturally as I was uncovering the various shows. So you're spending hours in the library finding these shows, first of all, and then reading them all, and then finding discoveries that you then want to share with the readers. One of my favorite examples of what you're talking about, it's his favorite excerpts, is from a show called Jim Jam Gems, which is a completely, completely forgotten show from 1920.

It's fascinating. I will just say as a side note before I talk about it being fascinating and how intrigued I am by this particular show. Throughout the book, my aim is always to provide an objective analysis to be objectively critical. So there are successful elements or effective elements about certain shows. There are ineffective elements. I have attempted, hopefully I've been successful. I've attempted to remain objective and to really critically analyze the material that we're looking at. There are so many things about Jim Jam Gems I love, with the understanding that it's 1920, it's in this incubatory or primitive era. So the material itself, the writing, the dialogue, the lyrics are largely ephemeral.

They're poor, it's not of a mature quality. And some of the mechanics of the show are poor. Again, given the time period, the musical hasn't matured yet. Understanding that and looking at it in the context of its time, it's fascinating. It's just one of those shows where you see little elements of where things are going in terms of the form. And I'll also add another reason that it's such an interesting and important piece is it was jazz-based. This is a jazz musical in 1920. We often hear about so many misperceptions about Shuffle Along, a black musical from 1921, major black musical, I don't mean to discount it in any way, shape, or form. However, let's speak objectively about that show. Jim Jam Gems is a jazz musical from 1920.

The other very interesting, well, I'll mention a couple interesting points. It uses in the show several recruits from vaudeville, which had a heavy influence on the making of the American musical, the maturation of the American musical, how it operates. Cabaret was an element, again, nightclubs cabaret are big in this period as well and are largely theatrical compared to what we understand now as, for example, 54 Below, Cafe Carlisle, etc. That's not a statement about 54 or Cafe Carlisle, just there is a difference in terms of the nature of cabaret and nightclub. At that time, these were shows. Oh, yes, yes, and costumes and they were the actual large cast, and yeah, exactly. Yeah, oh, complete.

Yes. And several shows, especially in the 20s, several nightclub reviews in the 20s transferred to the legitimate stage. And then you have Billy Rose in the 30s, where it really blurs the line between nightclubs and legit, not just Billy Rose, but he was one of the most prominent figures. So, anyway, there's cabaret in Jim Jam Gems, and the producer of Jim Jam Gems is John Cork, who will be one of the producers of Shuffle Along the next year.

[20:07] BEN WEST: We've jumped ahead into the 20s, which is great, and we'll catch back up with that. One of the things that struck me is when you're writing a book like this, I'm always taken by the fact that among historians who do this, there's almost no agreed upon definitions of the various eras of Broadway. Even if you talk about something like the golden age of Broadway, which is something you hear all the time. You don't actually use that phrase in your book, but you certainly see it in many books, but it's defined differently almost every time. You've ended up dividing your book into seven distinct, as you say, newly defined eras. What was the thinking? How did you arrive at seven eras of the American musical?

[20:48] BEN WEST: It was largely about the activity that was happening and the trends that were happening as they related to storytelling. I grouped the 1800s as one era, and then the first quarter century, which is 1900 through 1924, I call birth of an art form. There's a journey that happens in the first quarter century. This is when vaudeville is at its peak, really. This is when the annual review is at its peak, burlesque, as a circuit institution, not strip burlesque. This is the period of Al Jolson extravaganzas. This is the heyday of the spectacular musical play as brought to us by Charles Dillingham and R. H. Burnside. This is the period of quote unquote American operetta. There are so many different styles and forms happening on the musical stage in America that really represent this particular period.

At the end of this period, we start to pick up momentum toward what we will come to recognize in the mid-century as the American musical. So that's why I did 1900 to 1924. The second half of the 20s, I call intensification, because there is an intensification in terms of songwriting craft, both lyrically, musically, in terms of storytelling, with regard to comedy, with regard to drama, with regard to construction, character. Annual reviews start to disappear, and we start to have a crop of comparatively smaller or what we're called intimate reviews, which become a more sophisticated form, an incredibly influential form of entertainment. This starts to happen in the late 20s. This is the period where we have a huge influx of nightclubs and also black talent.

Yes, Shuffle Along absolutely happened in 21. There was a great deal of activity throughout the first quarter century. I'm not ignoring that at all. I'm just saying as we get into the latter half of the 20s, when we have this resurgence of black entertainment, there's heavy activity, late 20s. So there's really an intensification that is happening. And Showboat is in this particular period. So there is a great deal of activity. Then the two eras, mid-century are basically 31 through 50, 51 through 70. And I define this whole period as convention or maturity. And I don't mean convention in terms of traditional or old-fashioned. I mean convention in terms of the matured art of musical storytelling, the foundation of the American musical that we understand today.

Hamilton, for example, is a musical of convention. It actually references something that I put in the book, this idea that there is newness or freshness growth is not mutually exclusive with convention or maturity. And I think Hamilton is a beautiful example of that idea. It is a musical that is mature in its storytelling and is also fresh and new in the language that it is using to tell that particular story. Anyway, this middle period, I break them into two parts. The first part is about a maturity of craft and construction. This is what we have a lot of sophisticated shows: Kervial, Mark Blitzstein, Hart Rogers, George Abbott, Oscar Hammerstein, and Richard Rogers will unite and deal in folk tales primarily during this particular period.

The second half of this period, which is 51 through 70, I call style and structure because we start to have more complex ways in which the stories are structured. There is an integration of different styles that happen, particularly with regard to musical comedy really maturing in the 50s and 60s, and non-traditional storytelling in this particular period as well, really coming to maturity and thus tapping it off at 70 with Company.

[24:10] BEN WEST: And then 71 through 80 is what I call diminution. There's a falling off of the form almost. We have an influx of pop rock sounds, which become complicated in terms of storytelling, particularly with regard to the lyrics that are often associated with those sounds.

[24:26] BEN WEST: This is also the Wheeler, Sauntine Prince period.

[24:29] BEN WEST: And then the final era I call growing pains or identity crisis. And this is essentially the 80s and 90s, where there's something of a reckoning, or we get to basically a reset by the turn of the 21st century.

[24:41] David Armstrong: And you end the book in 1999, virtually. And talk about that. What was the decision there in terms of that? Where do you end the book about the history of something that's still going on?

[24:51] BEN WEST: At first, when I had begun this process, it was still very close to the turn of the century. One of the features of the book, or the points of the book, or one of the things I'm passionate about is putting shows in context. There is no context to be had discussing something that just happened yesterday because we don't know how that affects something that's going to happen tomorrow. So I was reticent to address the 21st century because we were still in the midst of it. It took 10 years to get to where I am now. So we're a little bit further away, but I still am very comfortable ending with 1999 because everything I've written to that point, to my mind, and I'll argue to my death is not going to change.

That is set in stone. That is what it is. I've tried to be as objective as possible. I've tried to analyze and dissect everything that's happening up to that point, and that's where we are. When we get to the 21st century, there is this feeling that we are now in this state of what I call perpetual existence. So the musical exists. What are we going to do with it? It's not something new. You know, I'm sorry to anyone who thinks they're creating some new art form. It's not new. You may be adding something new to it, but it's not new. It's here, this is what it is. So what are you going to do with it? So that's why I ended it, turn of the 20th century. And I don't mean to suggest that there's no further evolution.

Time inevitably opens possibilities for new stories, for new themes. There are new musical languages, which is something that we're learning. And I think that's one of the things that was grappled with in the final period that I discussed, which is 80s, 90s, is how to effectively tell a stage story using contemporary musical languages. And I think Rent is one of the most effective shows to do that. And Jonathan Larson in his writing spoke a lot about his feelings with regard to contemporary sounds and really sound theatrical storytelling. Hopefully that answers the question. And as you say, it's a book of history. So you're talking about shows that have historic significance. And it's hard to know what shows of last year or the year before will have historic significance. All we can really know is which ones were hits.

[26:50] BEN WEST: I think to a large extent, yeah. I mentioned that not so succinctly as you put it. Early in the, I think the author's note, when I was talking about Brooks Atkinson and how I have respect for him, as a critic, he was occasionally incorrect in his assessments, but he also can't put the shows in a broader historical context because he is writing about it the night after it opens effectively. I do address several 21st century titles, including some that opened metaphorically yesterday. You can't necessarily put them in a broader historical context, but one can address them understanding what's possible with regard to excellence in storytelling.

[27:25] David Armstrong: Absolutely. So what I'd love to do is go back now and talk about each of those eras and have you just share with us what you think are the highlights or give us a little guide of what the reader might expect to discover when they read your book.

[27:39] BEN WEST: Great, yeah, absolutely. Don't go away. Broadway Nation will be back right after this quick break.

[28:06] BEN WEST: As you said, part one is called Inventions, Influences, and Imports, and it starts in the 1800s. We're sort of talking about what came before the musical. These are the precursors or the influences. The precursor, and in some cases, the embryonic form. Because you have, for example, the passing show, which is a review 1894, which is a musical. There is the appearance of the musical form. It's just in this embryonic stage. I mean, I'm often struck by Pirates of Penzance, which seems to me like Gilbert Sullivan wrote a musical 50 years before the form really existed, but somehow they just happened more so than any of their other operettas. Their contemporaries, or even themselves. I don't think HMS Pinafore is a musical, but I feel like Pirates of Penzance has all the things that the musical's going to have. They just happen to sort of fall into it at that time. Which I find fascinating. So I think that's part of what you're talking about. Here is these embryonic or just sort of happy accidents.

[29:07] BEN WEST: Exactly. Accidental musicals.

[29:09] BEN WEST: Accidental musical. That's it. Oh, that's a that's it. That's the memory bank.

[29:14] BEN WEST: Yeah, accidental musicals. That's a fascinating way to put it. But yeah, so there are accidental musicals or embryonic form in this particular period. And not just with, as you mentioned, Gilbert and Sullivan, and there's the early review, some of the early Harry B. Smith shows. By and large, these are not shows that are viable today or would hold up, or these are not shows that we are going to revive and see, but they provide really the basis or the beginnings of what will start to sprout in the early 20th century. It has a heavy influence on the musical stage. I have also tried to paint a more comprehensive portrayal of minstrelsy, because it is a very complicated form, as you know, and it has this really complicated duality of artistic and social effects.

And so it was very much accurately associated with blackface and these African American characters, grotesque caricatures of African American life. At the same time, though, that is not all it was. That form itself evolved over the 19th century. And in several instances, particularly what we get later in the century, it became less about the African-American element and about independent comedy, independent song that had nothing to do with race. Dance, dance was a heavy component. Barney Fagan was associated with one or more of the George Primrose troops. And then Barney Fagin becomes the principal choreographer of the passing show. In the 20s, he comes back and he's in vaudeville in the 1920s, and he is featured in one of the Eddie Dowling musical comedies. There are many different facets to minstrelcy which I've attempted to address.

[30:46] BEN WEST: And you say, I wrote down that you said minstrelcy marked the definitive beginning of the American musical stage. And that's why it has to be addressed.

[30:55] David Armstrong: And you address it very well because you do explore that duality, which I think is not something that's readily understood.

[31:02] BEN WEST: Yes, definitely not readily understood. There's a fear of discussing it or a hesitation around discussing minstrelsy because of the black face and the black caricatures.

[31:13] BEN WEST: Yeah, it's so understandably loaded with negative connotations. You don't want to feel like you're justifying the negative aspect of it by pointing out the, I won't say positive, but at least neutral aspects of it. I mean, I think even positive is a I would just qualify that by saying artistic. When you talk about popular song, we're going back to minstrelsy. Actually, you know, there are other positive, I would say, effects that came out of it based on the given circumstances of the time. So I think that's the other piece to mention with regard to minstrelcy. A minstrelcy is in terms of timing for anyone who's not aware. Jim Crow is this character, a minstrel character, is created circa 1830, and the formal minstrel show starts to take place in 1843.

So we have already had 200 years of slavery, which is what I mean by given circumstance. Given that circumstance, another effect of minstrelcy, which one would argue is a positive effect, and was argued as a positive effect by African American artists contemporaneously, is that it opened doors for black performers and black writers. It's just such this difficult combination of very negative social effects that to an extent we live with today, and at the same time, vestiges of a positive artistic elements that are in there and percolating and brewing that will really come to fruition and flourish outside of the minstrel line.

[32:31] David Armstrong: And talk about the music a little bit, because one thing you point out in the book is that there are extensive elements of African American music in the minstrel songs, and then later in Koon Songs, again, another challenging even word to say in front of people. It's such a difficult and interesting, and I use the word combustible at some point, combination.

[32:58] BEN WEST: This is literally a turn of the 20th century in terms of ragtime and coon songs. And these songs, especially many of the early minstrel songs, are written by white men, but they're rooted in what they are hearing, performed by black individuals in the country. And this is another one of those progressions in terms of minstrelcy. By the time we get to the turn of the 20th century, there are several minstrel songs in minstrel shows, I should say, that are written by black songwriters.

[33:25] BEN WEST: Down in the tungles lived a made of royal blood, though dusky shade, a marked impression once she made upon a pseudo from Matamoon. And every morning he would be down underneath one bamboo tree, awaiting his love to see and to hear him sing. Bob Cole is one of those individuals who is a major, major force on the musical stage, on the black musical stage.

[34:10] BEN WEST: If you not a young and we not above the same, I'm not the same this very day. And if you allow me, one day there's two, two name as one, under the bamboo tree. So he's one of the individuals, and the idea of ragtime and coon songs has a similar duality in that the lyric for this genre, known as coup songs, is meant for comedy. So it's designed for comedy, and it is rooted in African American stereotypes. So it's chickens, razors, watermelon, stealing, gambling. It is all the African American stereotypes one can think of, coupled with the words coon and the N-word as many times as possible or frequently. And this was comedy. These songs were written by both black and white individuals. They were performed by both black and white individuals.

And they were, at least at first, based on contemporary accounts, enjoyed by both black and white individuals. Obviously, the social effects of the songs started to be seen. There took an extremely negative light, and this is basically the first decade of the 20th century. And therefore the lyric starts to refine itself, and we have a more refined ragtime. The sound remains, and we have a more refined lyric. That's sort of a boiled down, simplistic way of talking about it, but that's generally what happened.

[35:41] David Armstrong: You do a great job of helping us to understand the complexity of it and the nuances of it, and as you said, the combustibility of it, because it has all of these things in it at the same time. So now talk about birth of an art form. This is your 1900 to 1924. It's nearly a quarter of a century period. Talk us through that. What are the significant elements of that period that you focus on?

[36:05] BEN WEST: This is the largest part of the book. And I've tried to be as detailed and comprehensive, particularly in this era, because it really sets the stage for the American musical as we know it. I think the big highlight is the amount of activity that's happening and the diversity of activity and the invention. That's one of the things that's so exciting for me about this period. We must keep in mind that this is a new form.

[36:26] BEN WEST: These individuals are inventing this thing that we now understand as the American musical.

[36:31] BEN WEST: Al Jolson extravaganzas, which I had previously mentioned, which is story-driven extravaganza, frequently confused with review.

[36:37] BEN WEST: And especially today, critics, historians will often dismiss a lot of the Winter Garden product.

[36:42] BEN WEST: This came out of the Winter Garden Theater, sorry, which was a Schubert house, and the Schubert were real people at this time, not a corporation.

[36:47] BEN WEST: They produced at the Winter Garden three shows annually during the first 10 years of its life.

[36:52] BEN WEST: I found this very interesting because it's something that I think is confusing for many people and even for myself.

[36:56] BEN WEST: The Winter Garden Theater, which we know today is still one of the major Broadway houses, starts in the turn of the century, converted from a stable or something, isn't it?

[37:05] David Armstrong: Like, I believe so, yes.

[37:06] BEN WEST: Yeah, yeah. But unlike other Broadway theaters, this functions almost like a regional theater in that it's going to do three shows for limited runs every season.

[37:15] BEN WEST: I'm not sure that I totally understood that till I read your book that those Jolson shows are mounted for a three-month run, basically.

[37:24] BEN WEST: And then they go out on tour and maybe they'll come back at some point. But basically, there's a system to the Winter Garden and the way the Schuberts decide to use that building.

[37:33] David Armstrong: Correct, yes.

[37:34] BEN WEST: I referred to it as their flagship. The folks at the Schubert Archive would call the Schubert Theater the flagship.

[37:39] BEN WEST: The Schubert Theater is the namesake, undoubtedly, but the Winter Garden is the Schubert brand.

[37:44] BEN WEST: As you just very clearly described it, the design of the Winter Garden, it opened in 1911. And the design was to do three shows a year, and then they would be sent around the country.

[37:54] BEN WEST: I will say at that point, I don't know if they were exclusive Schubert houses or if it was Schubert houses and other houses. I'm not sure.

[38:00] BEN WEST: The Schuberts had a massive network, but nonetheless, they went around the country. They supplied the country's theaters with shows.

[38:06] BEN WEST: Relatedly, I will mention as well, something that's not really discussed and often gets in the way when people talk about long runs and oh, this only ran this long, trying to sort of prop up a certain show by saying this other show only ran X number of performances or X number of months.

[38:21] BEN WEST: When we're talking turn of the 20th century, as we are now, and even up into the 20s to an extent, shows are generally built to tour.

[38:30] BEN WEST: So it's not like you go out of town, you come in New York and you sit as long as possible. That's not how it worked.

[38:35] BEN WEST: There would be a tour, and you would either come to New York and then go on tour or your tour, and then you would be in New York and continue.

[38:42] BEN WEST: And that is the Winter Garden. That was the setup.

[38:44] BEN WEST: So you had Al Jolson was part of a number of the shows before they were built around him.

[38:49] BEN WEST: There are three-part shows. The Winter Garden started. The idea initially, it was gonna be this continental music hall idea.

[38:55] BEN WEST: It was a three-part program. Jolson was part of that initial presentation, and then that would go on tour.

[39:00] BEN WEST: The shows would go on tour. He was part of the other two three-part programs that happened.

[39:04] BEN WEST: I'm trying to remember. And then the fourth show he did, which I mentioned is Honeymoon Express, and this is 1913.

[39:10] BEN WEST: This is the first show in the Winter Garden that has a full story, beginning to end.

[39:14] BEN WEST: Right after that, Jolson's star is on the rise. Schubert signed him to an exclusive contract, and the first show that is built around him is Dancing Around.

[39:22] BEN WEST: What's that sneaky freaky, creepy melody? It just takes me, makes me restless as can be.

[39:30] BEN WEST: It goes through my heart, my head, my feet. I'll give anybody in the house my seat.

[39:36] BEN WEST: I wanna dance, dance, dance, dance, dance till I drop. I don't ever want to stop this raging.

[39:45] BEN WEST: Everybody wag with me. Everybody drag with me.

[39:51] BEN WEST: I've done those tips and skip send creamy hesitations. I could dance till day is dawning.

[39:58] BEN WEST: Then I want to dance all morning. Everybody sway with me.

[40:07] BEN WEST: I don't want to hear any of the grand bragtime music. That's what I understand.

[40:15] BEN WEST: I want everybody in the world to brag with me. And I go into great detail about Dancing Around because it really sets the template for this idea of story-driven extravaganza as orchestrated by orchestrated meaning arranged, composed by Harold Adderich, who was basically the Schubert's in-house writer.

[40:35] BEN WEST: Not a hugely sophisticated wordsmith, but such an incredible early 20th century showman in terms of structure and understanding theatricality and how the show should move and assembling all of the different elements.

[40:49] BEN WEST: Al Jolson's extravaganzas are a major component of this period.

[40:52] BEN WEST: The other thing is you talk about how that building had multiple performance spaces throughout it.

[40:58] BEN WEST: I don't know what's in the rest of the Winter Garden building today. I assume it's offices.

[41:01] David Armstrong: Well, you're referring to specifically, so folks know the nightclubs.

[41:04] BEN WEST: The Schuberts had two nightclubs on the second and third floor of the Winter Garden Theater building.

[41:10] BEN WEST: And the second floor was the main one that had really some of the most notable nightclubs in it. And then the third floor was another nightclub.

[41:17] BEN WEST: It's this entertainment complex there, which is interesting and hugely influential.

[41:21] BEN WEST: Not even the Winter Garden, but also the nightclub spaces for launching Ethel Merman, Ethel Waters before she becomes a major star, Josephine Baker before she becomes a major star, Duke Ellington, a number of people.

[41:32] BEN WEST: We talked about this story-driven extravaganza. What are these other forms that are brewing at this time? Talk a little bit about the review.

[41:38] BEN WEST: Oh, sure, review, which is one of my favorite forms, I will say. I am mad for review.

[41:43] BEN WEST: This is, as mentioned, the period dominated by annual reviews. There are independent reviews, absolutely.

[41:50] BEN WEST: Let's not discount them, but it is primarily shows like Ziegfeld Follies or George White Scandals, which are presented annually.

[41:57] BEN WEST: There's a new edition each year. So there's the George White Scandals of 1923 and then 24 and then 25, etc.

[42:04] BEN WEST: Every year they roll out an entirely new show for the most part.

[42:07] David Armstrong: Yes, yes, yeah.

[42:08] BEN WEST: Or virtually every year, to be fair. But yes, it's not just Ziegfeld Follies and George White Scandals, which are certainly two of the most prominent and most recognizable in terms of their names, but there was a series called Hitchy Ku, which was built around Raymond Hitchcock, which introduced a new atmosphere to review.

[42:26] BEN WEST: He was essentially the host of the review. He would talk to the audience before the show. He would deliver monologues.

[42:31] BEN WEST: There was a sort of an intimacy, a sort of a chic quality about it. And Cole Porter writes the score for two of these Hitchy Ku reviews, by the way.

[42:39] BEN WEST: Artists and Models, this is another thing that I found deeply exciting. Artists and Models we think of as the naked review.

[42:45] BEN WEST: This is the show with naked women, literally naked women. Which all of these shows, frankly, had naked women in them.

[42:52] BEN WEST: But not completely nude. Like they are nude nude in Artists and Models, yes.

[42:58] BEN WEST: But there are scantily clad women in most of the annuals, yes. But in Artists and Models, and also in Earl Carroll Vanities, they were nude.

[43:05] BEN WEST: And the Artists and Models show started in 23. There was one in 24, 25, 27, 30.

[43:12] BEN WEST: 1930 was not really an Artists and Models, which I addressed briefly in the book. 1927 was the sort of like hodgepodge thing.

[43:19] BEN WEST: And 23, 24 were just not great shows. They were there. But then there is the anomaly, which is 1925.

[43:27] BEN WEST: And it's incredible to see the reception of this Artists and Models 1925. This is the only Artists and Models that was not coincidentally written and structured by Harold Adderich, who was the Schubert in-house guy, though he didn't do the other Artists and Models.

[43:44] BEN WEST: And this was so well received. The reception is incredible to this particular show.

[43:50] BEN WEST: And I have gone through the script to this particular version of Artists and Models. And the way that it is structured, routine, meaning how each of the elements are placed.

[44:00] BEN WEST: We should mention for folks actually, because we didn't say it, review is a plotless, storyless show that is scripted.

[44:07] BEN WEST: So it is a scripted show, but there's no plot, no story. And most of it has been written specifically for that review.

[44:13] BEN WEST: So original material. It's not vaudeville, it's not acts that have been collected together for the most part.

[44:19] David Armstrong: Correct.

[44:19] BEN WEST: You might end up with a vaudeville act in a review on occasion.

[44:23] BEN WEST: Yeah, yeah. But mostly it's things that have been written specifically for this edition of the show.

[44:28] BEN WEST: With a specific cast. And often with an idea, and we'll get more in that as we move into the later reviews.

[44:35] BEN WEST: Yeah, yeah. But I think even at the beginning, there's an aesthetic that the material has to fit into.

[44:40] David Armstrong: Yes.

[44:41] BEN WEST: And I mean, if we're gonna go to the beginning too, I'll say, and this is one of the things that I discuss in the book related to Ziegfeld Follies in particular.

[44:48] BEN WEST: Review as a distinct form does not gain its very distinct, specific definition, full identity until we're into the 20s.

[44:57] BEN WEST: It starts to in the late teens, as this episodic form that you and I have just described.

[45:02] BEN WEST: When we're talking early review, though, 1907 is the beginning of Ziegfeld Follies, the passing show, which was the Schubert series, starts in, I believe 1912.

[45:11] BEN WEST: These shows offered a pretense of plot. And so it wasn't this straight episodic entertainment that review really becomes when it comes into its own.

[45:20] BEN WEST: There was this idea of like, oh, well, we should suggest that it's gonna be a story, or we should suggest something so that we have an excuse to do these disparate scenes.

[45:29] BEN WEST: And so the first Ziegfeld Follies was Captain Smith and Pocahontas. They come back and they decide, oh, we're gonna go to New York.

[45:35] BEN WEST: And so then they're in New York. There's not really a story, there's not a plot, but you see them now and then popping up in New York, and that's the reason for this episodic entertainment.

[45:44] BEN WEST: And so by the late teens that falls away, and then it's really basically gone by the late 1920s when we start to have this sophisticated form of review.

[46:08] David Armstrong: On the next episode of Broadway Nation, BEN WEST returns for part two of our conversation regarding his brilliant new book, The American Musical Evolution of an Art Form.

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