This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] David Armstrong: Welcome to another episode of Broadway Nation, the podcast that tells the remarkable story of how immigrant Jewish, queer, and black artists invented the Broadway musical and how they changed America in the process.

[0:24] David Armstrong: I'm David Armstrong, and today I'm excited to share with you the third segment of my conversation with author Ben West regarding his new book, The American Musical: Evolution of an Art Form.

[0:36] David Armstrong: As you will hear, this book is a comprehensive history of the American musical from its origins in the 19th century right up to the turn of the 21st century.

[0:46] David Armstrong: Along the way, Ben West sheds new light on a myriad of shows, authors, directors, and performers, including a host of often overlooked women and African American artists.

[0:57] David Armstrong: If you missed the previous episodes in this series, you may want to go back and catch up on those before listening to this one.

[1:04] David Armstrong: As always, I want to thank all of our patron club members whose generous support helps to make Broadway Nation possible, especially one of our producer level members, Robert Braun.

[1:15] David Armstrong: If you would like to help support the creation of this podcast, I'll have information at the end of the episode about how you too can become a patron.

[1:24] David Armstrong: Here we go.

[1:25] David Armstrong: Welcome back, Ben West to Broadway Nation.

[1:27] Ben West: It's wonderful to have you back to talk more about your brand new book, The American Musical.

[1:32] Ben West: Thank you, thank you.

[1:33] Ben West: Glad to be back.

[1:34] David Armstrong: There's so much to talk about here, as is evidenced by your very robust volume that you've presented.

[1:41] Ben West: And I'm grateful you feel that in a good way.

[1:46] David Armstrong: What was it that inspired you to take on this massive undertaking?

[1:50] Ben West: There were a number of things that inspired me to do this, a number of reasons I wanted to write this particular book, and why I felt compelled to write it, and why, at least from my vantage point, it was necessary.

[2:02] Ben West: For me, I think it all stems from my love of this art form and my passion surrounding the musical stage, my hopes for the art form going forward.

[2:11] Ben West: There is this intrinsic connection, which I think is often lost between past, present, and future.

[2:17] Ben West: Something about which I am deeply passionate is understanding from whence we've come in order to make conscious decisions moving forward.

[2:24] Ben West: History is crucial in that particular respect.

[2:27] Ben West: And we don't really have, at least to my mind, or we haven't had an accurate, comprehensive, documented, objective, practical history that really dissects how this American art form evolved.

[2:40] Ben West: And so what I have attempted to do and hopefully have succeeded in doing is to present an accurate, documented, practical history.

[2:48] Ben West: And as I say in the book, history is not merely facts and figures, it is prospects and possibilities.

[2:53] Ben West: And I'll just add there is an objectivity to it.

[2:56] Ben West: I have endeavored in the way I speak about this history and dissect this history to be deliberate in the words I'm using, meticulous and measured in the language.

[3:05] Ben West: So it's not big statements like Oklahoma is the first integrated musical, which it objectively is not.

[3:10] Ben West: And to the point about objectivity, there is an objectivity to understanding history and the effectiveness and the quality of material, the quality of musical storytelling is not purely a subjective matter.

[3:23] Ben West: And I think that gets lost a lot of times as well.

[3:25] Ben West: There is an objective analysis that can be done.

[3:28] Ben West: There's an objectively critical eye that I think can be trained and learned.

[3:32] Ben West: That's something that I have attempted to train in myself and to learn in myself and to bring to the book because it is in this objectivity that we are able to better ourselves, better our colleagues, better our work at large.

[3:45] Ben West: And we are in a moment in our culture where standards are often questioned and are often discounted.

[3:53] David Armstrong: I thought it was interesting and refreshing to see you hold these shows up to certain standards as to what is quality in terms of creating.

[4:02] David Armstrong: And in fact, I think on a number of occasions throughout the book, you comment on when that quality has been let down, basically, or ignored.

[4:10] Ben West: Yeah, which I'm sure we'll get into today.

[4:15] Ben West: And I will say you are not shy about voicing your opinions in the book, which I also thought was very refreshing and interesting and fascinating.

[4:23] Ben West: I appreciate that.

[4:24] Ben West: And hopefully I will say providing evidence in support of that and aiming to be objective in the analysis of that evidence.

[4:32] Ben West: As I say in the book, there is no one way to make a musical.

[4:35] Ben West: There's no limit to the stories one can tell, but there is an art to musical storytelling, which I describe as a rigorous creative science for a very specific reason.

[4:43] Ben West: There are tools, there are experiments that have been done, there are methods, there's a language to the musical stage.

[4:49] Ben West: And writing off history or misunderstanding it is a disservice to oneself, I think, in terms of the tools that one has to create an effective exceptional musical story and effectively tell that story.

[5:03] David Armstrong: I really like that expression.

[5:05] David Armstrong: A rigorous creative science is really good and something to latch on to in terms of looking at the craft of these shows.

[5:13] David Armstrong: So when last we spoke, we had just gotten to the third part of your book, which is intensification.

[5:19] David Armstrong: And we just arrived at the final section of that part, which is Oscar Hammerstein the second and the musical play.

[5:27] David Armstrong: Of course, this is probably one of the most well known, or at least most talked about, most written about subjects in the American musical.

[5:35] David Armstrong: What do we not know about it?

[5:37] Ben West: Certainly a lot has been written about it, and rightfully so, understandably so.

[5:41] Ben West: It's a major, it being Showboat in particular, is a landmark musical for a number of reasons.

[5:47] Ben West: I think what I have attempted to do is, and this speaks to the point about what do we not know, is to put it in context.

[5:54] Ben West: I think that part is often lost.

[5:56] Ben West: Showboat is not the first book musical.

[5:58] Ben West: Oscar Hammerstein did not pop up out of nowhere.

[6:01] Ben West: And so I think also what's lost in this conversation and not often discussed is his mentor, who was Otto Harbach.

[6:07] Ben West: Harbach and a number of other people, it's not just Harbach and Hammerstein, were deeply interested in further developing and in progressing the American musical form, the legitimate musical stage in America, specifically storytelling in terms of sound construction, which James Montgomery at one time called, I believe I'm quoting this correctly, it's in the book.

[6:27] Ben West: So if I'm wrong, it's in the book.

[6:29] Ben West: But true to life characters, quote unquote real books.

[6:31] Ben West: And Hammerstein, of course, was instrumental and perhaps the most notable name around really maturing that, the idea of sound construction, song, dialogue, dance, seamlessly blended together.

[6:42] Ben West: Showboat is not necessarily seamless, but that idea of seamlessly blending these things together.

[6:47] Ben West: Showboat is there and it comes from something.

[6:49] Ben West: It is not something that happens out of nowhere.

[6:51] Ben West: There are book musicals dating back to the 19th century.

[6:55] Ben West: As we move through and up to this period in the late 20s, there is a propulsion that is happening.

[7:00] Ben West: And Hammerstein really typifies that.

[7:02] Ben West: And Showboat in particular is emblematic of this particular movement.

[7:06] Ben West: The other thing that I discuss in the book, which I think is not, or at least in what I have seen, is not discussed in relation to this movement and Showboat and Hammerstein is the show Rainbow, which is a Hammerstein show that comes out immediately after, or I don't know if immediately, but a year after Showboat.

[7:21] Ben West: If one reads the script to Rainbow and is looking at the mechanics of this particular show, the setting of this particular show, there is not a straight line, so I don't want to misrepresent that.

[7:30] Ben West: But it feels like a precursor to Oklahoma.

[7:34] Ben West: It's folktale-esque, Americana-esque environment in the nature of the show.

[7:39] Ben West: And it aims to be a serious musical comedy or a serious musical play.

[7:45] Ben West: And the movement continues.

[7:46] Ben West: And there are people who are actively trying to tell a story as succinctly or as soundly as Oscar Hammerstein is.

[7:54] Ben West: He himself is trying to do that in Rainbow.

[7:56] Ben West: And I'll just mention one other thing about Oscar Hammerstein, which perhaps we may not know.

[8:00] Ben West: And this goes back to something we were talking about with regard to the quote unquote operetta.

[8:04] Ben West: Sometime is another quote unquote operetta by Rita Johnson Young, who we already discussed in relation to May Time.

[8:11] Ben West: Sometime came out in a year after May Time.

[8:13] Ben West: It's artistically unsuccessful work.

[8:15] Ben West: It again points to this idea of a movement and these very adventurous, innovative things that were happening.

[8:21] Ben West: It's an original musical, 1918.

[8:24] Ben West: It opens up on the Broadway stage, it ends with this pantomime sequence, and then the interior action basically alternates between scenes set in the present that are in a dressing room and then flashbacks that are set in reverse chronological order.

[8:37] Ben West: Hello, merrily, we roll along, etc.

[8:39] Ben West: This, of course, predates that.

[8:40] Ben West: The stage manager for this particular piece was Oscar Hammerstein the second.

[8:45] Ben West: This is 1918.

[8:46] Ben West: And it is interesting to think about the failed experiments that have an influence on people that come afterwards.

[8:52] Ben West: We know about that from Sondheim, having worked on Allegro, and we know how influential that was on him, but you're bringing up another case where that may have been a similar kind of experience for Oscar Hammerstein to see these great artists fail at what they were trying to do, and then he then tries to complete it.

[9:12] Ben West: If it is not a literal connection, there is an influence or an atmosphere or some sort of extra external force that is at work to some extent.

[9:22] David Armstrong: Totally.

[9:23] Ben West: So in terms of Showboat, we talked about Hammerstein with Rosemarie, even just prior to that, was doing a lot of the same things, trying to accomplish the same kind of integration as the word we've come down to.

[9:34] Ben West: I don't know how you feel about that word, but it does describe what they're trying to do, meld it all together, make it all of a piece.

[9:41] David Armstrong: Was there something specific about Showboat or the source material that made it achieve this higher level of what they were trying to do than other pieces that were happening in the same period or even with Rainbow?

[9:53] Ben West: I think the subject matter has a lot to do with the commercial success and therefore name recognition, longevity, endurance of the particular property, as in the case of Oklahoma as well, coming during World War II, and Shuffle Along, which we discussed as well to an extent, really encapsulating a moment.

[10:10] Ben West: And I think Showboat encapsulates a lot of activity that is happening at the time, particularly regarding race relations.

[10:16] Ben West: I think the potent and contemporary nature of the material, in addition to the maturity with which it was written.

[10:23] Ben West: So there is a maturity with which it is written and to extend an excellence with which it is written while still showing markings of the time in which it's written.

[10:31] Ben West: But I think what puts it over the edge is the public's connection to the subject matter and the potency of the subject matter and the seriousness with which it has been treated.

[10:40] David Armstrong: And do you think Ferber's novel is it the most substantial work of fiction that's been adapted thus far?

[10:47] Ben West: Well, it depends on what one means by adaptation, because Uncle Tom's Cabin has undergone numerous adaptations, which were hugely influential.

[10:55] Ben West: I know it's an interesting question.

[10:56] Ben West: I feel I would want to do research before answering that.

[10:59] Ben West: If not the most, it's certainly one of the most notable and influential adaptations, certainly.

[11:05] Ben West: I would put Uncle Tom's Cabin up there because that was adapted multiple times.

[11:09] Ben West: I have not seen the material for it, but what I understand is that Rosamond Johnson and Bob Cole were actually working on an operatic adaptation of that prior to Bob Cole's death.

[11:19] Ben West: And there was an adaptation, I believe it was described as an opera.

[11:23] Ben West: I again I haven't seen the material, so I don't know how we would classify it.

[11:26] Ben West: But Will Marion Cook wrote an adaptation of Uncle Tom's Cabin, or at least selections of which were performed at Carnegie Hall.

[11:32] Ben West: So Uncle Tom's Cabin, I think, is a major work.

[11:35] Ben West: And then actually, I would say, I mean, I don't know that it falls into the line of Showboat in terms of its heft or endurance, but there was a series of three adaptations of plays that had been written by James Montgomery in the late teens, which speaks to this point about true to life characters, real books, and Irene is the most notable of those three.

[11:53] Ben West: But the other two were very effective as well.

[11:56] Ben West: One was written by Otto Harbach, just to keep tying the ends together.

[12:00] Ben West: The most scatter shot of the three was called Oh Look.

[12:03] Ben West: And unfortunately, this is one of the nuggets that I had to cut from the book.

[12:06] Ben West: The backstory involving Oh Look, I just think is fantastic. If we don't know the show, people certainly know one of the songs from it, which is I'm Always Chasing Rainbows. And what's the backstory? Well, we'll have something that you can only get on Broadway Nation. I don't remember it exactly, but it was unsuccessful when it opened in New York. Revisions were happening, and then it was basically rewritten for the road. And at that point, I believe that was when the Dolly sisters were added to the cast. Harry Fox was always the star of the show, but it was sort of rejiggered for the road. And then it became this hugely successful piece after it was in New York.

[12:40] David Armstrong: Interesting, interesting. So now take us into part four of your book.

[12:44] Ben West: Convention or maturity, part one, craft and construction. Yes, this is essentially 1930s and 40s. This is one of the two periods that I refer to, as you just mentioned, as a convention or maturity. And again, just to reinforce by convention, I don't mean traditional. I mean the fundamental, the foundational, matured art of musical storytelling. And so there is a lot of activity happening in this period. And one of the other things that I attempt to dispel in this book simply by presenting an accurate history is what I'm often told, this notion that before roughly 1970, everything was one sound, one story, one style, one set of characters, women's sopranos. To that point, there is a great deal of activity happening in the 30s and 40s, and this push toward sound, theatrical, dramaturgical, theatrical construction, a refinement of writing craft in terms of book, music, lyrics, stagecraft as well, sophisticated review is a major component of this particular period.

We start to see there was during what we just discussed, the period we just discussed, there was a surge in black authorship. And that really starts to disappear. There's still an African American presence on the stage, particularly in the way of performers, and especially on the dramatic stage, I will add. This is something else that I had wanted to put in the book, but it just wasn't immediately relevant, and so I needed to eliminate it. But Canada Lee is a figure that fascinates me. What a fascinating figure, fascinating career. Anyone interested in African Americans on the stage, mid-century, he's someone definitely to investigate. Musician, boxer, actor, producer, he wore whiteface for a show in the late 40s. Fascinating figure.

Anyway, so there's a black presence on the stage, mainly performative. We have the Hart and Rogers shows that are done with George Abbott. Abbott becomes a major figure in musical comedy in particular. Pal Joey, the Kurt Weill shows happen during this period. Hammerstein and Rogers, again, adventurous storytelling, non-traditional storytelling, particularly in the Kurt Weill vein with regard to Lady in the Dark, Love Life, a great deal of activity happening during this period. There is, to an extent, a concerted effort among a number of individuals, if not everybody, but a number of individuals in terms of bettering the musical stage. So there is still this propulsion or this movement toward more refined, sound musical storytelling.

And this is why I call this period convention maturity and specifically craft and construction. Because it's not just Hammerstein, it's not just Rogers. There are a number of individuals who are really, in addition to attempting to tell relevant stories, like E.Y. Harburg would be one of those individuals, they are attempting to establish the legitimate musical as this serious-minded art, this medium, this serious medium on the stage.

[15:24] David Armstrong: And what's interesting is that you take a slightly different tactic than I think most people do. This period, as you said, goes from 1931 to 1950, which smack in the middle of that is Oklahoma. Not that you ignore Oklahoma, but you just include it as part of a continuum as opposed to a major turning point.

[15:43] Ben West: Exactly, which is what it is. There's not really any other way to look at it. To say Oklahoma started everything, which you're not saying, I'm not, I understand. There is a sense that Oklahoma started everything. This is the definitive start of the modern musical. This is the first integrated musical. This is to misunderstand everything that happened before Oklahoma. The way in which Oklahoma was made, the tools that were used, the techniques that were used. Every element, every technique that was used in Oklahoma in the telling of this story is something that has been maturing on the musical stage for at least a decade, in some cases, decades. And this includes ballet, which was integral to a number of different shows prior to Oklahoma.

This doesn't negate the momentousness or the legendary status of Oklahoma, which it retains and is a momentous work. But much like everything that we're discussing, it's not quote unquote the beginning. It's part of something that has been happening. Hammerstein didn't just wake up and decide I'm gonna write a musical. He had been working for two decades. I just think it's interesting to point that out because you're taking a somewhat different tactic than many other books would take or recounting of the history. And of course, Oklahoma does have one thing that sets it aside is it ran twice as long as any show before it. So that put it on the map. That's why it seems like the first, because it was just such an event.

[17:04] David Armstrong: Yes, yeah. The way you describe it as an event, I think is also the reason that the Black Crook is often described as the first American musical, which it was not. I mean, there's not a way to quantify that. So what I've aimed to do and hopefully succeeded at doing is to put all of the shows and to put the evolution of this art form in context. So Showboat, again, is in 1927, which is in the middle of that period that I'm calling intensification. It is not that Showboat started everything either, in the same way that Oklahoma is not quote unquote the beginning.

[17:38] Ben West: Don't go away. Ben and I will be back with more Broadway Nation right after this quick break.

[17:54] ♪ Musical number ♪

[18:51] Ben West: Let's move on into part five. Convention and maturity. So this is a continuation of that theme, but now you're calling it part two style and structure. And this is 1951 to 1970. Again, a big 20-year period. Why is that separate from part four? What is your thinking behind the way you've segmented these?

[19:11] Ben West: One of the reasons it's separate is digestibility, so that we can have a clarity around what is going on. Artistically, there are great differences between the two periods. The form, for example, continues to mature. There is a turn in the style of play that is happening, musical play that is happening. Where we had just come out of a period of folk tales, we are moving toward a period of more sophisticated settings, a more sophisticated style of writing. You even have that to an extent in the Hammerstein Rogers collaborations with The King and I, which has a very different feel and environment than one finds in South Pacific, Oklahoma, Carousel, Allegro, even. The musical comedy becomes a major force during this particular period, which speaks again to this idea of style.

The vaudeville style, burlesque, these elements really converge and blossom in tandem with the mature storytelling techniques that have been developing. And we have shows like Forum, Little Me, Wonderful Town, I address, Top Banana is something that I address, which is not often discussed, but deeply relevant to this journey. And there's really a turning point there in terms of musical comedy with Guys and Dolls, which is 1950. It's in this transition period. Also, we have during this particular period being 50s and 60s, the proliferation, shall we say, or full realization of the director choreographer. This is not the first, just to be clear. We've had it prior to this, but it takes on a new importance in terms of the trajectory of staging and story.

So, particularly in the work of Jerome Robbins, Gower Champion, the staging becomes further integrated into the structure of the storytelling. This is apparent in Gypsy, West Side Story, Hello Dolly, Bye Bye Birdie, et cetera. So this really comes to maturity in this particular period, and we have a transition at the end of this period.

[20:53] David Armstrong: Before we get there, we talked about Guys and Dolls. Of course, that's one of the most famous shows of all time. It's a giant hit in London right now. It's probably coming to Broadway next season. And as you just said, it puts the musical comedy into a new place. We've had musical comedy since day one of the Broadway musical. What does Guys and Dolls do to the musical comedy?

[21:12] Ben West: I would say it's not Guys and Dolls alone, but I think what Guys and Dolls typifies is the fusion of style and structure, ultimately. It is a fusion of the mature musical storytelling techniques that have been used primarily in more dramatic works or less body comedy. And it integrates into that vaudeville sensibilities, burlesque sensibilities. There's nightclub, literal nightclub involved in Guys and Dolls. I mean, it's an exceptional, exceptional work. I call it in the book a masterpiece, in the way that it is structured, in its character, its distinct character, in the way that it integrates the elements of story song dance. It is one of the real turning points in this trajectory of modern, mature musical comedy because it is a deeply, deeply mature, deeply, deeply sophisticated show that is built around this raucous low comedy.

[22:02] David Armstrong: And to follow up on that, you mentioned Top Banana, which is actually one of my favorite albums to play. I've always loved that cast album. I've never seen the show, although there is that sort of weird movie.

[22:14] Ben West: Awful movie first, awful movie.

[22:17] David Armstrong: But even there, you get little hints of things. But I was surprised to see Top Banana get the space, the attention that you give it in your book. So talk a little bit about that. Why Top Banana?

[22:29] Ben West: It is with qualifications, a terrific show in the way that it is composed and put together. Perhaps to bring back an old work accidentally, but it is in its composition a delicious piece in that it exists in this world all its own. It involves a comic, a low comic, who has a television variety show. He was formerly in burlesque, and this would be the strip era of burlesque in which he was working. Now he's a television variety star. Played by Phil Silvers, basically playing Milton Berle, a fictionalized version of Milton Berle.

[23:04] David Armstrong: Yes.

[23:05] Ben West: He's the man of the year this week. He's the man makes the sweet. I can tell you song, he's a street, so it's me this week. It was hung on a Catskill pink. Where they broke 10 for once next week. It became such a splash, which okay, never flash, he's the man of the year this week. You'll never find this photograph on my look. This lover you'll discover on the cover of Rick is mentality and the scene. Must be kept genuine and ting. So we kingdom and trim wick and master and tin. He's the man of the year this week.

[23:49] David Armstrong: Yes, that was the perception at the time, or that was what was discussed at the time. The idea or sort of the thrust of the show is that he is possibly gonna lose his sponsor, so he has to find a way to keep his sponsor. And there's a love triangle involved in this, a publicity stunt at a department store. I think there's an elopement.

[24:07] Ben West: I can't remember all of the plot points. It's not very many. It's a rather slender plot upon which are hung these moments of buffoonery and music. Another one of the reasons that I mentioned it is because it is bringing, not exclusively, but it is bringing television to the musical stage, to the legitimate stage. There are television numbers in the show, it opens with a television rehearsal, there are television sequences in the show, and then what I mean about this world of its own, you have moments where, and I outline this in the book as I attempt throughout to give very detailed examples of what is happening. There are moments when someone will say, "Oh, I'm a dancer," and then the other person says, "So dance."

And then you go into this sequence, which is out of that dialogue, but it exists in this television world in essence. So just the way the show was composed, I find to be kind of delicious. It doesn't have the mature mechanics necessarily that we will see in another sort of showbiz idea like "Little Me," for example, or the mechanics of "Guys and Dolls," and there's not the complicated plot that's happening that we see in "Guys and Dolls," or the insane plot that is in "Forum," for example. "Top Banana" is composed, again, meaning arranged, put together, assembled, is such a delicious piece, and the way that it operates in this world, I just find kind of marvelous. And once again, it is bringing this idea of vaudeville comedy, burlesque comedy, low comedy into this modern musical, more mature musical world.

There are things to address in the show. For example, some of the score simply is not up to snuff. Some of it is delicious and like fits into this world beautifully. Much of the satire I find to be very sharp, especially in terms of television, in terms of advertising and things like that. "Hey, wait a minute, pal, how do you expect people to buy things they don't want if you don't give them a slogan?" Right. You've gotta have a slogan you can sell. "SEDLL Sell." You gotta have a slogan they can yell. "Why don't the L yell? Come here!" For sodium salicylate, there wasn't a chirp. "But how the public bought it when they changed it to burp." Yes! "If you wanna ring the cat, register bell, get a slogan, that'll sell."

You gotta have a jingle they can sing. Right! "S-I-N-G-E sing a mingle thinking. You gotta have a jingle they can sling." Some reminiscian things. "Now the jingle everybody sang for weeks, you'll agree. Was titled 'My Abdominal Supporter and Me.'" Yes, if you want a catchy little tongue talking thing, get a jingle battle sing. "Hey, Sherry, I just got a great idea for a slogan. Meet Miss Splendo." "That's the first smart thing you said today. I'm glad I thought of it. It's perfect. Meet Miss Blendo. It's got girl, it's got soap, it's got meat, right?" That's one place the score does succeed is reflecting that. Yeah, there's cleverness throughout. I would totally agree. And one can listen to that to an extent on the recording and even in what you have in terms of the libretto.

As I say, it's not a masterpiece, it's not a uniformly excellent work, but it really is a delicious piece, and it is, I think, really held together in the character of the show, meaning the character of the show, not the central character, but the character of the show and the way it sticks to its guns in terms of how it operates. And there's this elaborate mock dream ballet or burlesque dream ballet at the end. It's a show that deserves to be spoken about and to be addressed because it is an important piece in terms of this evolution and representative of what is going on, particularly in this era that we just entered, the 50s and 60s.

[27:39] David Armstrong: Well, I think that's one of the hallmarks of your book that you will find not the typical references to illustrate your points throughout, which I think is quite refreshing.

[27:47] Ben West: Thank you. I appreciate that. You mentioned non-traditional storytelling a little while ago. What exactly do you mean by non-traditional storytelling and trace that up to this point for us a little bit? How does that enter into the Broadway musical or the American musical?

[28:00] Ben West: Sure, sure. My feeling is it enters early on, certainly early on in the 20th century. It really crystallizes or takes on a mature life in the personage of "Company" and the sort of Hal Prince can in the late 60s. By non-traditional storytelling, I mean, and there's not one way of non-traditional storytelling, but essentially we're talking about shows that are perhaps discussing a theme rather than a strict plot. We might see some sort of framing device or overall environmental fixture within which this particular show is being performed, but it's not a more traditionally structured story in which we have cause and event incidents or a chronological plot. I mentioned an early item called "As You Were," which was billed as a fantastic review in 1920 to get back to the idea of review and its importance.

It will have great impact on the construct of non-traditional storytelling. And I would invite one to look at some of the Sondheim works, for example, "Assassins," "Pacific Overtures," "Company" in particular. So the review is incredibly influential across the board and particularly present here. And to that point, there's a show which I discuss early on in the context of review called "The Comic Supplement," which one might argue is an early example of non-traditional storytelling. It is a review, but it has a central family as its core, and you track this family through the everyday incidents of their life over a period of time. "Love Life" is a non-traditional, I would say, "Peggy Ann," which is a Harton Rogers from '26, "Lady in the Dark."

One could make an argument for something like "Three Penny Opera," even "Allegro." There are instances of non-traditional storytelling and very successful ones. "Lady in the Dark," "Three Penny Opera" in particular, prior to the emergence of Prince, prior to the emergence of Sondheim. I would say as a form on the legitimate musical stage, it really starts to crystallize when we reach the Prince Sondheim "Company." And again, other authors might categorize these as concept musicals, a term you particularly don't cotton to. So talk a little bit about that. Why are you, I don't know, reject is too strong a word, but why is this the idea?

[30:03] Ben West: Reject is fine, but for me it doesn't, it doesn't have meaning. What is the meaning of it? The sense I get, and I say very clearly, it's my feeling is the term concept musical has been used to alleviate or make excuses for sloppy construction and poor craftsmanship. And so we say, "Oh, well, this is a concept musical, so it doesn't need to make sense, or it doesn't need to have structure, or it doesn't need to." At the end of the day, you are still telling a story, presumably. "Company" is still telling a story. "Pacific Overtures" is still telling a story. "Assassins" is still telling a story, to mention the three shows specifically that we had just mentioned. The success of "Company" is largely in its structure.

The success of "A Chorus Line" is largely in its structure. The success of "Assassins" is largely in its structure. That does not discount the material for any of those shows, the written material, but it is the structure that is allowing this show to effectively tell its story. And my feeling is when we start saying concept musical, the perception I get is that there's a feeling where this is going to be an unusual show that doesn't need structure, it doesn't need to be, it's different, it doesn't need to be coherent or well constructed. And I think that is where a lot of shows fall flat because they don't have structure. And I think that's one of the major things to take away from this period is construction, structure, how the story is actually structured, what are you telling in order to effectively tell that story? And when you look at something like "Company" versus "Follies," structure becomes deeply apparent.

[31:31] David Armstrong: Absolutely. I was going to use the example of "Working" versus "A Chorus Line," which are in essence the same kind of show. They're trying to do the same thing, but "Working," which is a show I actually like a lot of things about and have done that show, and I think there's a lot to it, but it doesn't have the structure, the internal structure that "A Chorus Line" has or that "Company" has, which is what's really making it work. On the surface, it seems to be the same show, but they haven't devoted the same amount of the core of it, the structure of it. So it's interesting. This is a beautiful example of the importance of review. As I say in the book, and I wouldn't necessarily suggest that everyone go out and start using narrative review instead of concept musical, but I'm simply saying if this has to be labeled, if something like "Company" or non-traditional storytelling needs some sort of catchy label, perhaps it should have been narrative review.

Because again, we as we were talking, review is integral to sort of the construction of these particular pieces. And this goes back to the importance of understanding the evolution of this form and understanding review in particular, because it was an exacting form and it required precision, it required specificity, it required the routine in particular must be immaculately structured. The structure of a review is crucial, and the pieces would get rearranged constantly to find the right structure for it.

[32:46] Ben West: Yes. To go back to Howard Deeds, who I adore and revere with regard to review in particular, that's one of the things that set his shows apart in that he was so meticulous in the concept of his shows and in the routine, he spoke of the script of a review being complete as that of a play. That's how he saw his review scripts. And so he would work prior to coming to New York, shifting things around as you just described, so that when his shows hit New York, they were rock solid and they remained exactly as they were throughout the entirety of the run. It was complete. Again, it's structure, it is routine, it is how the show functionally operates, how this story is told. Review doesn't have a story, but how this evening of entertainment in that case is told such that it is complimentary and propulsive.

[33:39] David Armstrong: On the next episode of Broadway Nation, Ben West returns for the final segment of our conversation about his new book, "The American Musical: Evolution of an Art Form." Now here's the information about how you too can become a patron of Broadway Nation. A donation of just $7 a month will not only keep Broadway Nation rolling along, it will also provide you with exclusive access to the complete unedited versions of many of the interviews that you hear on this podcast. And all patrons will receive special shout outs and acknowledgments of your vital support for Broadway Nation. To join, simply go to Broadway Nation Podcast dot supercast. That's Broadway Nation Podcast dot S-U-P-R-C-A-S-T. Or click the link in the show notes to this episode. Broadway Nation is written and produced by me, David Armstrong. Special thanks to Pal's Mox for his help with editing this episode and to the entire team at the Broadway Podcast Network.

[35:06] Ben West: All those photos up on the wall, we'll lie to life. Salmon ways come up in good crazy people, your friends. It's good crazy people, your name friends. And that's what it's all about, isn't it? That's what it's really about, isn't it? That's what it's really about. Really, I'm not never never some company. Here's a nothing.