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[0:01] Ben Rimalower: Welcome to Cast Offs with Ben and Daniel. Today’s guest is star of the National Company of Hello, Dolly!, three-time Tony nominee, Carolee Carmello.

[0:52] Daniel Nolen: Yes, God.

[0:54] Ben Rimalower: You're not gonna give me grief for saying that.

[0:56] Daniel Nolen: I'll allow it.

[0:57] Ben Rimalower: Thank y'all. Anyway, Carolee Carmello is like a god with that crazy voice that defies categorization. Is she a soprano? Is she a belter? I don't know.

[1:07] Daniel Nolen: She's a belter.

[1:08] Ben Rimalower: But I mean she's everything.

[1:10] Daniel Nolen: True.

[1:10] Ben Rimalower: Carolee came in to chat about the Godspell movie soundtrack.

[1:14] Daniel Nolen: Seriously.

[1:16] Ben Rimalower: We barely mentioned it. There was just so much to say. And that was before we caught Dolly.

[1:22] Daniel Nolen: That is true. Alright, let's talk about it.

[1:24] Ben Rimalower: Let's go in, honey.

[1:26] Daniel Nolen: Um, let's put our hand in there.

[1:30] Ben Rimalower: Uh before the parade passes by.

[1:32] Daniel Nolen: Um, it only takes a moment.

[1:34] Ben Rimalower: Um, you're looking swell, thank you.

[1:43] Daniel Nolen: We saw Carolee as Dolly Levi in the National Tour in their stop in Hartford, Connecticut, a couple weeks ago.

[1:50] Ben Rimalower: What was the theater name? Do you remember?

[1:51] Daniel Nolen: Don't remember.

[1:52] Ben Rimalower: And I'm not there anymore anyway. Um, it was there on the road for the next year.

[1:57] Daniel Nolen: Um, was the theater crazy?

[1:59] Ben Rimalower: It felt lawless there. Like none of the ushers knew what to do. They were kind of just like going rogue.

[2:04] Daniel Nolen: That's true, they were.

[2:06] Ben Rimalower: They were like, I don't know. Like your seats right down there, and it like wasn't. But you know, in fairness, like ushers just can't win with me.

[2:13] Daniel Nolen: What do you mean?

[2:14] Ben Rimalower: I'm pretty much annoyed no matter what an usher does.

[2:18] Daniel Nolen: Okay.

[2:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. It's like, so I don't even want to like. However, the snack bar, is that what you call it?

[2:25] Daniel Nolen: Concessions.

[2:25] Ben Rimalower: Everything was very cheap at the snack bar, I felt.

[2:28] Daniel Nolen: Well, listen, that's they're saving money on good ushers.

[2:31] Ben Rimalower: That's true. I mean, I feel like who are we? We're starting our review of Carolee Carmello and Hello, Dolly!.

[2:36] Daniel Nolen: We have to start about the ushers.

[2:38] Ben Rimalower: We're taking the whole journey.

[2:39] Daniel Nolen: We're taking the whole journey.

[2:40] Ben Rimalower: Okay, okay, okay. Um, but I feel like when you go to like, you know, the Barrymore Theater in New York, a Coke is like eight dollars.

[2:47] Daniel Nolen: And there it was like four.

[2:49] Ben Rimalower: Which is still I bought nothing at the Barrymore when we saw The Inheritance.

[2:53] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah, same. Not a t-shirt, not a lapel pin, not a Diet Coke, not even a water.

[3:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Although I did take a couple of napkins from the bar, not realizing how cute they were, just because I wanted to wipe my nose with them in case I sneezed during the show.

[3:08] Daniel Nolen: So I had them all crumbled up. Um, I like the tears glistening down my cheeks in case anyone saw me. It's very Judy Garland in that one photo.

[3:16] Ben Rimalower: You know the one.

[3:16] Daniel Nolen: Don't.

[3:17] Ben Rimalower: You know the one. The one with her crying, it's like real close up, shadowy. It's like a famous photograph.

[3:22] Daniel Nolen: Did you draw it?

[3:24] Ben Rimalower: No.

[3:25] Daniel Nolen: I'm picturing your drawing of it.

[3:26] Ben Rimalower: My drawing?

[3:27] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[3:28] Ben Rimalower: Okay. Anyway, back to Carolee.

[3:31] Daniel Nolen: What do you call it?

[3:32] Ben Rimalower: My illustration.

[3:33] Daniel Nolen: Your illustration.

[3:35] Ben Rimalower: Digital illustration.

[3:37] Daniel Nolen: Anywho. So okay, ushers blah blah blah blah.

[3:41] Ben Rimalower: Carolee.

[3:42] Daniel Nolen: The seats were I would say medium comfortable.

[3:45] Ben Rimalower: The seats sucked. I mean, no legs.

[3:47] Daniel Nolen: Well, we had very good seats. But there was a drain in the floor, which was nice.

[3:50] Ben Rimalower: Especially for me with all those bottles of God like that, you know. Um, yeah, so we were good seats though, like fifth row back, maybe orchestra center.

[3:59] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god. Do you realize based on how much time we're talking about this stuff, we're gonna have to talk for like four hours about the show.

[4:05] Ben Rimalower: And I would be happy to do that.

[4:07] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, we could we can have a full episode. Uh do it. Only Dolly.

[4:11] Ben Rimalower: Um anyway, so of course, Dolly's entrance, they don't keep us waiting. They're so generous. Uh Dolly Levi comes out on that train within the first four minutes of the show, puts down that newspaper, Dolly Levi, born Gallagher.

[4:26] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[4:26] Ben Rimalower: The crowd goes wild. And in Hartford, Connecticut, that means about 20 people applauded for Carolee.

[4:32] Daniel Nolen: Well, I mean, it's like it's tricky. I mean, that you know, that's part of why the show is like such a like celebrity vehicle. Because it's like you really like want that effect, you know, and when you have somebody that's like just known for their talent, you know, in theater, they have to earn that.

[4:50] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[4:51] Daniel Nolen: You know, so they get it act two, or even like, you know, 10 minutes later, right? But they don't get, you know, that oh someone like Bette Midler or even Bernadette Peters gets a kind of a star entrance that you can't, there's just no way to make that happen, right?

[5:04] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[5:05] Daniel Nolen: But I wonder what it was like. I mean, I saw Carol Channing do it in 1994.

[5:10] Ben Rimalower: Alright, humble brag. Um, and uh it uh it was spectacular, but obviously, you know, the audience was going to see Carol Channing in Hello, Dolly!. She was a huge, huge star already at that point, and so, well, at least as far as she was associated with that role for so many decades.

[5:24] Daniel Nolen: But I wonder, like in '64, like she was a star, but she was not a top-top flight Broadway star. She had done Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. She had replaced Rosalind Russell in Wonderful Town.

[5:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, who'd be the equivalent of her of that nowadays, like with that career?

[5:39] Daniel Nolen: Well, it's hard to compare nowadays because now everyone is kind of like that.

[5:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[5:43] Daniel Nolen: Like today, like, like now, like Patty and Bernadette don't have that much more than like Carol Channing had. Like the thing is that there really aren't an Ethel Merman or Mary Martin. But I guess if you transpose all that, like to make the equivalent. And I'm thinking like Katrina Lenk or like Jessie Mueller.

[6:02] Ben Rimalower: I feel like she'd be bigger than that. Gentleman Prefer Blondes was a big hit, and it was like her thing. Like, I feel like it would be more like I don't know, it's very hard to compare TV and film is such a big factor.

[6:12] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[6:13] Ben Rimalower: But but anyway, whatever that moment was in 1964 for Carol Channing, you know, the audience wasn't where Daniel and I were on excitement level.

[6:24] Daniel Nolen: But they got there. Because within the first song, It Takes a Woman.

[6:28] Ben Rimalower: Yes, I know.

[6:28] Daniel Nolen: She I put sorry, I put my hand in.

[6:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[6:31] Daniel Nolen: Uh Carolee was just dazzling. I mean, she just has you know, uh such musical comedy oomph. Her voice just pours out with like limitless reserves of like richness.

[6:43] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I didn't know Dolly, like, I didn't know these songs could be sung that way, you know. She makes it her own. Um because even if you listen to um like if you listen, well, Barbara doesn't sing that song in the movie.

[6:55] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[6:56] Ben Rimalower: She replaces it with um uh the also fabulous song Just Like Everything to Me. Um but like, but even the other songs that Barbara does sing, Barbara's voice is so weirdly Barbara that like it's like hard to even compare it to somebody else singing it, you know.

[7:10] Daniel Nolen: And like, um, and like who else is like a real belter that has like recorded that, like Ethel Merman, like a little bit, like although she does she even sing that song?

[7:19] Daniel Nolen: Marilyn May.

[7:20] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, like I don't know, they're old school. You know, Carolee has, even though it's a real musical theater voice, it has a modern quality to it.

[7:27] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[7:28] Ben Rimalower: Yes. So it really is just a really unique and refreshing and like deeply satisfying take on the score.

[7:36] Daniel Nolen: 100% starting right at the top. I mean, that's the thing about Carolee's voice. I mean, I actually saw her, by the way, once in a reading of a biomusical about Merman.

[7:46] Ben Rimalower: Um, where she played Merman, and sang all Merman songs. And it's I even though they're so different, it actually is a of uh an apt analogy because like Merman, I think Carolee has that quality that just like completely even like her voice from absolute top to absolute bottom.

[8:05] Daniel Nolen: Not only that there's not a break, but there at any note you hear Carolee sing, you would think, well, that's dead center of her voice.

[8:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and you know it's Carolee. There's just never any sense of like being anywhere near the limit of the range, right? Or even like the breath.

[8:20] Daniel Nolen: Right, right.

[8:21] Ben Rimalower: And it's all there, like even her speaking voice, the first line, Dolly uh Levi Born Gallagher, you can hear the resonance in that voice.

[8:29] Daniel Nolen: And it pierces through the darkness of the theater.

[8:33] Ben Rimalower: Yes, the darkness in the quick Carolee is the big bang of belters.

[8:38] Daniel Nolen: Yes, 100%. And um, oh anyway, but and she's just so charming and likable, and like you just, I mean, you know, if if there's not that celebrity entrance of a Bette Midler, there's just she immediately is that because you really I mean I think I can say this more than any, I mean, I saw Bette four times, and I saw Bernadette twice, and I saw Donna, and I saw Betty, and as I mentioned, I saw Carol Channing.

[9:07] Ben Rimalower: But I feel like this is the first time I've seen a Dolly who it just seems like the entire company is so like in love with her.

[9:17] Daniel Nolen: Like it's not just a love fest in the audience. I mean, who knows? Maybe like she's actually like secretly a bitch and they all like hate her.

[9:24] Ben Rimalower: But you just know that's not true. I mean, even when we went back into her brag, humble brag, when we went backstage and talked to her after the show, and they did, but like she immediately like took us all on this tour, and like everybody was just so like wanting to like they weren't like, oh, it's the star, like they were all right.

[9:40] Daniel Nolen: Like wanting to talk with her, like talk about their kids, they all clearly just like are just like so into her, you know.

[9:47] Ben Rimalower: And even what what was that one twink was like, oh my god, he was like, I loved it. You guys were applauding so much for Carolee throughout the whole show.

[9:55] Daniel Nolen: So he could like see us and hear us just going wild. I mean, Daniel's like, you know, beating around the bush. Basically, we were like the only two gay people in Hartford except the ones on the stage.

[10:05] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes, we were the butt um, you know, I I and and on stage there was nothing but gay.

[10:11] Daniel Nolen: Nothing but gays and Carolee.

[10:13] Ben Rimalower: Um but uh okay, so before we go back into the rest of Carolee's performance, do we want to say anything about the rest of the company?

[10:20] Daniel Nolen: Um I will say I loved uh Irene Malloy.

[10:24] Ben Rimalower: Irene Malloy, yes.

[10:25] Daniel Nolen: I mean, first of all, that is her name Annalise.

[10:28] Ben Rimalower: Um I look it up.

[10:29] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, look it up. Um, you know, I've always kind of thought of that as a thankless role because it's just like you get the one song and it's kind of just like a filler song, and then and in fairness, part of what was great about Kate Baldwin on Broadway is that with like all the hullabaloo that was going on with like Bette Midler and and on the gays and everything, Kate Baldwin was like no frickin' nonsense.

[10:50] Ben Rimalower: Yes, well, it really worked for the character, but you know, she just sort of like dispensed with the moments and you know, and as thrillingly as she sang Ribbons Down My Back, um uh, or as sexy as she was uh about it, it was very much like beat get beat to beat to beat to beat to beat.

[11:10] Daniel Nolen: And it was actually then surprising when she was moving in uh It Only Takes a Moment in the end.

[11:15] Ben Rimalower: Um but uh but this was a little bit of a different take on it, which I really enjoyed.

[11:20] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, and she acted the fuck out of it. It's like she really did have kind of that feistiness, but she also had a deep um humanity, and you you know, you could see her falling in love with um Cornelius, which you know took some acting because he was obviously a a gay man.

[11:42] Ben Rimalower: But um what are you implying?

[11:44] Daniel Nolen: Well, you know, I mean I'm just saying she if if it were high school, they'd be going to the prom together, you know.

[11:51] Ben Rimalower: That's still my life.

[11:52] Daniel Nolen: Um, but I loved her so much. Like I was thinking I want her to replace Katrina as Bobby in Company.

[11:59] Ben Rimalower: Oh I thought she was so wonderful, and she was just such a good actress and so committed to the journey of Irene.

[12:07] Daniel Nolen: Yes, and uh I'm going to tell you that her name is what is wrong? Why is this like not readily find the ball.

[12:16] Ben Rimalower: I'm so embarrassed.

[12:17] Daniel Nolen: Keep telling.

[12:18] Ben Rimalower: Wasn't it like oh Annalisa Leaming?

[12:20] Daniel Nolen: Annalisa Leaming.

[12:22] Ben Rimalower: Anna Lisa Leaming. What else has she been in?

[12:24] Daniel Nolen: She was in.

[12:25] Ben Rimalower: You're gonna ask me that too.

[12:26] Daniel Nolen: No, you told me what she was in when we were there.

[12:27] Ben Rimalower: Well, I realized I think I saw her in Dolly with Betty Buckley and loved her too.

[12:31] Daniel Nolen: Okay.

[12:32] Ben Rimalower: But the year in the role, she's not somebody that like got bored. I think she just went even deeper.

[12:38] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[12:39] Ben Rimalower: And her singing is gorgeous and thrilling. She actually kind of has a little bit of a quality reminiscent of Florence Lacey, who played the part um in both Carol Channing revivals, the one in 78 and the one in 94.

[12:53] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[12:54] Ben Rimalower: Um but uh I don't know if this is okay to say. She's um, she's I think maybe more beautiful than Florence.

[13:01] Daniel Nolen: Although, in fairness, I didn't see Florence in 78. Like I'm sure, like she was quite a lover. And I will say, uh, this Irene looks like she's very pretty, but in like a very unique way, and she looks like the exact halfway midpoint physically, the exact midpoint between Julie Andrews and Carol Burnett.

[13:20] Daniel Nolen: Yes, she's like they're like lesbian love children.

[13:25] Ben Rimalower: They're not lesbians. Just be it broken records, don't wish to make any statements true or false about sexual dynamics that didn't happen or didn't happen between Carol Burnett and Julie Andrews. Although that could be a wonderful, a wonderful show.

[13:44] Ben Rimalower: Annalisa Leaming in Julie and Carol.

[13:47] Daniel Nolen: Julie Loving Thyselves.

[13:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Um, but anyway, loved Annalisa and the rest of the cast um was really um really good, really good.

[13:56] Daniel Nolen: And oh, and John Bolton was great as um as uh uh what's his name?

[14:02] Ben Rimalower: Horace. Horace, yeah. Um, and all I mean that was like they're everyone like the whole company, especially all the waiters and you know, they have so much to do. They were just so energetic, and even when we went back afterwards, they were all like just so positive.

[14:17] Daniel Nolen: Well, they all seem about 22.

[14:18] Ben Rimalower: I mean they're all 22.

[14:20] Daniel Nolen: Like they see I felt like a like I feel like normally when you see Hello Dolly and like like Cornelius and Barnaby are like about to sing uh the best song in the world. Um put on Sunday clothes and they're talking, and he's like, I'm what is he? I'm 30 or I'm 33, 32. I'm a 32-year-old head, you know, 32 years old, I've gotta get out and see the world.

[14:40] Ben Rimalower: And Barnaby's like, um, uh, he's like, Well, I'm only, what is it, 19?

[14:45] Daniel Nolen: It's not so urgent for me.

[14:46] Ben Rimalower: 17 or 19 years.

[14:47] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, it's like super young.

[14:48] Ben Rimalower: And normally you're like, okay, grandpa, because it's usually like some fucking old queen who's like been playing the part since like the last revival, you know.

[14:55] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[14:56] Ben Rimalower: And this is the first time where like when he said, like, I'm 30 years old, I've got to see the world. You're like, you might be like late 20s. Like, let me see some ID son.

[15:06] Daniel Nolen: And absolutely, like Barnaby was like, I'm like, you know, 14, and you're like, I buy it.

[15:11] Ben Rimalower: Right, right. The whole thing was like Twink City. I mean, I feel like the company is like fresh out of Amda.

[15:18] Daniel Nolen: Like on leave, going back to like finish their like two semester lambda program.

[15:23] Ben Rimalower: 100%.

[15:24] Daniel Nolen: 100%, like doing homework after the show.

[15:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. But really, the show is the best homework I've always said. It's you know, you learn by doing. You learn by experience.

[15:32] Daniel Nolen: Yes. Um so back to our experience.

[15:34] Ben Rimalower: Back to our experience, back to Caroline. Uh you said something about her her her musical comedy chops.

[15:40] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. And something that struck me was how, and not just because of the red hair, but how there was a lot of a Lucille Ball in her performance. It was like very especially during the dinner scene where she sits at that table and just does.

[15:52] Ben Rimalower: Totally.

[15:52] Daniel Nolen: It's funny you say Lucy O'Ball because I just saw her at Encores a couple years ago in I forget what the evening was called. It was like 30 minute, yeah, she did Wildcat.

[16:01] Ben Rimalower: Well, it no, it was Look Me Over.

[16:02] Daniel Nolen: Hey, look me over.

[16:03] Ben Rimalower: That was the name of the evening, because that's her song from Wildcat.

[16:06] Daniel Nolen: Yes. But it was all like it was only like a 35 or 25 minute chunk, and then there was like a Mac and Mabel chunk, and there was a um Sail away, not sail away. Uh was it Silhouette?

[16:16] Ben Rimalower: It was Bibi Newerth playing Elena Stretch part.

[16:18] Daniel Nolen: It had to be Silhaway.

[16:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Uh-huh. Okay. I don't know why I don't remember it being Sail Away.

[16:23] Daniel Nolen: Umless it was uh that it was freaking sail. It wasn't Goldilocks. Um anyway, but uh so yeah.

[16:31] Ben Rimalower: Um moving on with Carolee.

[16:33] Daniel Nolen: Well, during her little that little scene where she's eating at the table, you know, all the little uh you know, oysters or whatever she's eating. Dump dumplings, um dumplin.

[16:43] Ben Rimalower: She so Lucille Ball and so uh Meg Ryan and when Harry met Sally, and I told her that after I was like, the way you know that the food acting you were doing in that moment was this is deep for Daniel. It was so Meg Ryan and when Harry met Sally.

[16:57] Daniel Nolen: No greater compliment. Um okay, so just going back just to like get through like the show piece by piece, because we said like uh I put my hand in there, Rubens at my back. Well, so but let's just say for um uh uh put on your Sunday clothes.

[17:07] Ben Rimalower: Put on your Sunday clothes, no disrespect to any of the other great ladies who played the part.

[17:16] Daniel Nolen: Right. But like, you know, let and you know I believe Bet Midler Hello Dolly was like musical theater magic. I've rarely been so ecstatic. However, Caroline did not need to resort to like adding a comedic Irish jig to avoid some of like the high notes in the boys' key of put on your Sunday clothes.

[17:33] Ben Rimalower: What's the part with that, you know?

[17:35] Daniel Nolen: Oh, you mean as Bet did?

[17:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, like so what what how does how does it go? Like that's Sunday shine is the, you know, that's like such a feel as fine as you look.

[17:44] Daniel Nolen: When you look down. And Caroline just gives you like that you feel as fine as you look.

[17:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That does turn into a little bit of a sort of thing. But they all they all navigated it, you know. Like whether you're it doesn't matter if you're Bette Midler, Bernadette, whatever, you know, it's that song is the boys' song. And like maybe it does modulate for them, but it's still not, it's not a moment about even if it's in their key, those bitches are in their 70s and they've got bigger fish to fry than singing one line in this Fakta group number.

[17:54] Daniel Nolen: You know.

[18:18] Ben Rimalower: That's like, is Jennifer Samart in it? I'm not belting.

[18:20] Daniel Nolen: Right, right. So um, but Caroly's like, if I'm there, I'm belting. If I'm there, honey, the notes there.

[18:28] Ben Rimalower: The note's there. So it was there. And it but anyway, that number is I mean, that has been for me all these times I've seen Hello Dolly. When they slam that big door down, and that ston out there.

[18:40] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. There's a world outside of Yonkers.

[18:43] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it just like it just you can't not be filled with joy and like it's just so exciting and energizing. I mean, it really is it's something I didn't realize about Hello Dolly, all the years that I was like a musical theater lover, obsessing about all these different musicals, and I knew that I loved Jerry Herman, and I would listen to like Jerry's girls and to have like Andrea McGardle and Leslie Uggams belting out these songs of his one after the other, and of course Carol Channing, you know, I was just completely obsessed, and I would listen to the Mac and Mabel album, and you know, that in some ways was my favorite Bernadette, even as much or more than Sunday in the Park with George, you know.

[19:20] Daniel Nolen: And um, and and Mame for Angela.

[19:23] Ben Rimalower: Well, Dear World actually is my favorite Angela album.

[19:26] Daniel Nolen: Absolutely. But Hello Dolly, you know, and I loved Carol Channing. Um, but it's but it wasn't something I was into in that same way of listening to. But when I watch the show, it's such a perfectly crafted musical, and the moments, you know, they just they up the ante of the energy and the joy and like the inevitable.

[19:48] Ben Rimalower: It's so I mean, if you describe the plot of Hello Dolly, I mean like what's the climax it's just an old lady going to a restaurant she hasn't been to in a while.

[19:55] Daniel Nolen: Which I mean, but like it's so brilliantly constructed to just like inevitably pull you toward that like that release of her coming down those stairs and being celebrated like that, you know.

[20:07] Ben Rimalower: Well, and speaking of Jerry Herman, uh I have this playlist that I listen to in the mornings to kind of get me in the mood to uh, you know, go out in the world before the parade passes by.

[20:18] Daniel Nolen: And the top three songs that are on there are It's Today from MAME, yeah, put on your Sunday clothes from Dolly, and then um uh put a little more mascara on from Lacan.

[20:28] Ben Rimalower: No, but I should add that one.

[20:30] Daniel Nolen: Uh Dear World, um, each tomorrow morning.

[20:32] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I love that.

[20:33] Daniel Nolen: Because there's all you know, it's just like when I first wake up and look in the glass, yeah, pull but pull pull your teeth out of the glass.

[20:42] Ben Rimalower: There's no long lost stuff.

[20:47] Daniel Nolen: I love it so much.

[20:48] Ben Rimalower: Oh, no, but but don't come for Angela's belting on that album because when she sings Kiss Her Now, that is like I don't think Patty could sing that better.

[20:58] Daniel Nolen: Well, and then and even um And of course I don't mind stuff.

[21:02] Ben Rimalower: Oh god.

[21:03] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I don't want to know. But I feel like by the time she recorded Dear World, like I feel like meme, she was still a little bit like I'm not really a singer, like musical theater people, but I'll do my best and bolt it out.

[21:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. But I feel like Dear World, she was like, keep it in B flat, but I'm willing to go up to a C sharp only on the last note and only for the album.

[21:20] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[21:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's not she would never say only for the album. I bet Angie, whatever she did, it was eight shows a week, bitch.

[21:27] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Maybe she's a workhorse.

[21:29] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I was just watching Murder Show last night, and I was like, you know what? She did 24 as a 60, however old she was at the time, she did 24, 26 episode seasons, 12 seasons of murder she wrote, and she wanted to stop because it was a lot of work and she didn't need the money.

[21:48] Daniel Nolen: Um but she was employing so much of her friends and family that she kept doing it after like, you know, whatever season they wanted her to anyway.

[21:56] Ben Rimalower: Do I need to like have a murder she wrote moment?

[21:58] Daniel Nolen: I not really. I mean, I go in and out.

[22:00] Ben Rimalower: I I'd like honestly something. I've seen it like a few times for a few minutes when my grandparents would like watch it, like while I played video games or something.

[22:09] Daniel Nolen: Jessica watching Jessica.

[22:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[22:11] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. I mean, for me, I it as as embarrassed as I am to say this, it's hard for me to follow the plot sometimes just because I like, you know, my attention span. But it is so comforting just seeing Angela on screen, like cooking in her little cabot coke in Japan and like inviting.

[22:28] Ben Rimalower: Is that why Rue is so into it?

[22:30] Daniel Nolen: I don't know. I mean, I feel like Rue's just like such an old lady at heart that he like loves like his mystery stories, you know, because he talks about like loving like Michigan. But no, but like the idea of having it on like for like comfort in the dressing and stuff.

[22:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, same thing cooking or whatever. I mean, that's why I love it, is because she is just such like a like a comforting, grounding energy for me. That I and I love, you know, there's so many wonderful guest stars. I mean, Lorna Left has been in several episodes, um, Mary Wicks with George Lee, which George Hearn.

[23:00] Daniel Nolen: I'm definitely having a Mary Wicks moment right now.

[23:02] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes. So back to Caroline.

[23:04] Daniel Nolen: Back to Caroline. We have to, yeah, we have to wind down.

[23:08] Ben Rimalower: We have to wrap it up. Um, so okay, uh, well, before the parade passes by.

[23:12] Daniel Nolen: Wonderful. Let's talk, yeah, let's talk about before the parade. I mean, I think it's safe to say she's my favorite version of that, right?

[23:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Like, I mean, just she I mean, she really gives it to you.

[23:24] Daniel Nolen: She gives it to you, and it's I mean, I love before her, my favorite was Bernadette, just because I felt Bernadette gave it such pathos.

[23:31] Ben Rimalower: Um I mean, I'll give you that the Bernadette version hurt.

[23:35] Daniel Nolen: No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I loved, I loved Bernadette in the role, and I loved her version of that song. Although I think before I think before Caroline, my favorite was Betty Buckley.

[23:43] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah. It's because Betty had this moment that I had never noticed in the show, which is like, I think it's in the middle of the song.

[23:48] Daniel Nolen: Mm-hmm like during one of the instrumentals. Where she like you see her like decide to start doing the choreography.

[23:56] Ben Rimalower: And Betty, just watching Betty make that decision was so rich and intense and involving and so clear, but also like complicated and nuanced.

[24:10] Daniel Nolen: And I just felt like I was really witness to this like human, like transformative moment that the character had, which like I never would have thought would be in this show. And it just informed her performing the rest of the song.

[24:23] Ben Rimalower: And then and I have to say, I mean, and Betty really belted the fuck out of it too. I mean, I was really thrilled by Betty's voice in that song.

[24:32] Daniel Nolen: Um, so maybe I'll say Carolee's Tide because of that. But but Carolee just kind of gave me like from the beginning. Just like mouth open. Just like a full.

[24:43] Ben Rimalower: I mean, she is a parade.

[24:45] Daniel Nolen: You know, and I just want to march in it.

[24:47] Ben Rimalower: March in it, honey. We're gonna wave that banner high.

[24:51] Daniel Nolen: We've got a goal again. Gotta drive again. Gotta drive again.

[24:54] Ben Rimalower: Is that what it is? Don't want her coming alive again. I've had too much coffee.

[24:59] Daniel Nolen: But uh, and I honestly the same thing with uh so long deary.

[25:04] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yes, which I will say that song has become again, just like you know, the Irene ribbons down my back. That's another song I never really cared about in the recordings, but like seeing these women perform so long dear, it becomes this huge staple of the show for me.

[25:20] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean I feel like that song, once you see the show, you're like, oh, like that's up there with like, you know, a man that got away. Because it's just like, I mean, if there's there's so much going on in Hello Dolly, and like actually she doesn't have that many songs, especially like proper like solos.

[25:37] Ben Rimalower: And that's like her, I guess like 11 o'clock number.

[25:40] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah. And like it's um, yeah, it definitely is like when you just start listening to the album, you wouldn't necessarily like add it to your like number one like show tunes favorite belt list.

[25:51] Ben Rimalower: But you definitely do put it there.

[25:53] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, you know, and I wish I really wish I had a recording of Carolee Lee singing all the time. I wish they would do like, you know, didn't like they did like um an EP.

[26:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, didn't it like Pearl Bailey? Didn't they record a thing for her?

[26:05] Daniel Nolen: I wish they would do an EP with all like um all the dolly singing different songs. Like, you know, it's probably in Bets Getty that that can never happen.

[26:14] Ben Rimalower: True. Betty could sing, I put my hand in.

[26:17] Daniel Nolen: Oh, mixing it up?

[26:18] Ben Rimalower: No, they each have to get all the big things.

[26:20] Daniel Nolen: No, no, no. I want each one of them singing.

[26:25] Ben Rimalower: I will play the same. I will play your Mary Fuck Hill, but I will not, I will not assign one song to one woman and the others not.

[26:34] Daniel Nolen: Okay. Well, on that note, let's talk to Carolee.

[26:41] Ben Rimalower: Broken wreck. Carolee Carmello. We are so fucking excited to have you. Goddess Carolee Carmelo.

[26:49] Daniel Nolen: Oh my goodness. I was telling Daniel it's so weird to have you because I'm such a huge fan of yours.

[26:54] Ben Rimalower: And I feel like you're someone who truly doesn't give a crap about any of that stuff. You know, like about fans or about No, I mean I'm sure you're like loving and grateful to your fans, but like I, you know, just like you and I were talking over email. You're not obsessed with with theater and music and sh individual singers or show tunes, or it's like not, you're not like you don't seem mystified by that whole thing.

[27:16] Daniel Nolen: It doesn't have like a match. Well, and you started out, you went to school for business, is that right?

[27:20] Ben Rimalower: So you never your dream was never to come to Broadway and do theater. Well, now we're telling you how you feel.

[27:27] Carolee Carmello: Correct. Broadway found you, you know, it's like we needed your gift, and so Broadway said, you know, please, please come.

[27:34] Carolee Carmello: Well, it was yeah, it was a weird little transition from college business degree to you know, life in the theater in New York City. Because I like you said, I didn't plan it, and it just sort of happened a little ass backwards because I was doing some community theater stuff during college, and then I got offered this job the summer after I graduated, which was an equity theater, and I was forced to make this decision about whether or not to join Actor's Equity, which for people who don't know, is the union that actors who work in the theater have to join in order to be able to work in really professional settings.

[28:15] Carolee Carmello: So um I remember standing in my mother's living room where I was at the time and talking to this producer, and he was explaining to me what actors' equity was, and I had no idea. Which you know, when I tell people that story who are actors who went to school for it, they're like, oh my god, I worked for five years here cards, they're really pissed off about it. Um sorry. Sorry about it. Sorry about that. Um, but yeah, I was sort of at this crossroads and I realized do I want to pursue this professionally? Because he was explaining to me at the time that if I just wanted to continue doing community theater, which I was doing during college, that I really shouldn't join the union because then you're not allowed to do that kind of amateur theater.

[29:00] Carolee Carmello: Um I was like, what you thought you would do that? Like when you thought about your future as this like businesswoman, you know, not working professionally in the theater. Did you always imagine that you would keep doing community theater?

[29:14] Carolee Carmello: Not really. But you obviously had a love for it that I enjoyed it. For fun, yeah. It was really just like my outlet during school. Did people come to you and say, like, you have a talent, you have a voice that we need on the stage? Like, was that something you were known for as a not really?

[29:34] Carolee Carmello: I mean you were playing leads. I in my cafeteria at my dorm, yes. But I mean, a lot of people were in the ensemble. I suppose that's true. It's all relative, isn't it? Um yeah, and when I was 19, I tried out for my first professional job, which paid me $19 a week doing Maria in the Sound of Music.

[29:56] Carolee Carmello: So then I was like, Oh, I'm making money at this. I'm completely obsessed with your whole like secret closeted soprano past. Like because you played Amalia in She Loves Me, isn't that great?

[30:11] Carolee Carmello: Yeah. I mean wow. I mean, everyone's like, oh, the greatest belter, the greatest belter. But like, I mean, you I guess maybe Judy Kaye is in that category too, but it's so I mean nowadays a lot of these girls do both, but they don't really do the belting in that same. I mean, you give like a real old school belt, earthy, you know, roof shaking belt and played these legitimate soprano roles.

[30:35] Carolee Carmello: Uh yeah, I guess it was it was born out of necessity just to find work. And um I remember auditioning for She Loves Me, and I was gonna be equally happy if I had gotten one of the other parts, you know. So I and and I think the first time I ever was really tested with that soprano thing that you're talking about was when I did I did the first national tour of Les Miz and I was covering Cosette and Fantine, which was a different track.

[31:05] Carolee Carmello: They changed the track a little bit because normally this is the strangest thing. I think it's Cameron Mackintosh calling. They want you.

[31:17] Carolee Carmello: Wow and rips that phone out of the wall. I'm sorry she's not available. Um so what do you mean the cover was a different track?

[31:26] Carolee Carmello: So when the show opened on Broadway, they had you know the understudy tracks set up. So the um I guess the Fantine cover, who was more of a belter, did not also cover Cosette because those voices are not usually the same person.

[31:41] Carolee Carmello: Yeah. So I remember at the audition them sort of vocalizing me up because I didn't sing anything soprano-y and they were like what about this can you go this high can you go this because Cosette has like a high C at the end of act one or something.

[31:51] Carolee Carmello: Yeah yeah um and I was like oh I know I don't know if I can do that. So had you taken no voice lessons?

[31:58] Carolee Carmello: Yeah I know and I never have sorry but you still but you still had your you I mean in those community theater shows like I don't know the musical director was warming up the cast and you were standing there going like I can do that.

[32:13] Carolee Carmello: I mean you had some sense of your I think uh the sense I had of it was more from like singing along with Julie Andrews you know or singing along to other kind of recordings or shows and I know that's your thing we're gonna talk about recording.

[32:29] Carolee Carmello: So you'd bring up Julie Andrews obviously I mean all of America the whole world grew up with that Sound of Music but when I would watch the Sound of Music I mean I would get to a certain point singing along where I was like no I got it.

[32:41] Carolee Carmello: You just kept going um I I don't know I mean I I don't think I ever was that conscious of it. I was just trying to sound like her and you know I guess that was my voice lesson was listening to her because I never really had anybody teach me what were the other ones uh like that uh that were soprano-y like that well or or either I mean were you listening to Funny Girl also or you know I don't think I was aware of any of that stuff when I was a kid were pop music what were the albums or singers I didn't I don't think I here we go.

[33:16] Carolee Carmello: Sorry, I'm on the wrong podcast. No, I think my exposure to musical theater really was television because back then they would play, you know, the movie of Sound of Music, the movie of Music Man.

[33:30] Carolee Carmello: Musical. The music movie of 1776. Yes, I did. I love that. I love the dark secret surprise.

[33:40] Carolee Carmello: It's coming out. Um okay, sorry. Sound of Music, music fans. 1776 was on TV once a year.

[33:50] Carolee Carmello: Um, West Side Story Movie was on, you know. And and you always wanted to be Maria, not Anita.

[33:57] Carolee Carmello: Um I don't know that I really even identified. No. No. I don't think I identified at that point in my life wanting to do any of it.

[34:07] Carolee Carmello: It just was kind of an interesting different thing on TV. I mean, back then you didn't have YouTube, you didn't have cable channels for YouTube. When it was on, it was on.

[34:17] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, that's it. You just watched it and I was like, this is different. Telling a story. Well, he's 14.

[34:23] Carolee Carmello: Um But so wait, would you sing with both parts in West Side Story?

[34:27] Carolee Carmello: I guess so. Yeah. We had the album of West Side Story movie, which of course is like all Marni Nixon.

[34:35] Carolee Carmello: Not yet. I think she sang Tony too, didn't she?

[34:39] Carolee Carmello: Marni Nixon, R.I.P. Sit the pretty good and not mirror there.

[34:44] Carolee Carmello: Who can that attract the bird be here? Such a pretty face, such a pretty dress, such a pretty smile, such a pity me.

[34:53] Carolee Carmello: I feel stunning. Under like running and dancing for joy for a lot.

[35:01] Carolee Carmello: My pity wonderful. Um yeah, I think I I think I just sang along with everything. Did you have men and women?

[35:12] Carolee Carmello: I have three younger brothers?

[35:14] Carolee Carmello: Ah, the older sister.

[35:15] Carolee Carmello: Okay. Very Maria.

[35:18] Carolee Carmello: That's Fräulein Maria.

[35:19] Carolee Carmello: Yes.

[35:23] Carolee Carmello: Not in this room. The call's coming from inside the house.

[35:27] Carolee Carmello: Okay, so uh were those any other musical movies. What a Judy Garland stuff, like any of those old MGM kind of things.

[35:36] Carolee Carmello: I probably saw some of it in passing, but I don't think not The Wizard of Oz.

[35:41] Carolee Carmello: Oh yeah, yeah. Wizard of Oz, I remember.

[35:44] Carolee Carmello: Um, I remember Lesley Ann Warren in that TV version of Cinderella.

[35:50] Carolee Carmello: Got it. In my own little corner in my own little chair.

[35:58] Carolee Carmello: I can be whatever I want to be. On the wings of my fancy, I can fly anywhere, and the world will open its arms to me.

[36:17] Carolee Carmello: And um, okay, and so the album you want to talk about under gun to her head.

[36:24] Carolee Carmello: Um, I really don't have anything. I was like, it's fine, it's fine, just come, just come.

[36:29] Carolee Carmello: Um but uh you said the Godspell movie soundtrack.

[36:32] Carolee Carmello: Yes, which we love. So yeah, I I before coming here yesterday, I was sort of reminding myself because I wanted to figure out was it really the movie, or was it the off-Broadway soundtrack that I because the movie was like a big bomb.

[36:46] Carolee Carmello: Like some people like Was it? A lot of people didn't even know there was a Godspell movie. I don't remember seeing it until much later.

[36:54] Carolee Carmello: But I think for some reason I just was exposed to that album. And I just remember I had a friend called Kitty. If you're out there, Kitty Makheo.

[37:04] Carolee Carmello: Hi, I'll be from grade school. Um, and we would go in her basement and sing all the parts of the Godspell album.

[37:12] Carolee Carmello: And like jump around her basement and you know, call it. Did you ever wind up doing Godspell?

[37:16] Carolee Carmello: No. How funny. I think I'm too old now.

[37:19] Carolee Carmello: But uh that would have been a fun one to do. Well, all the performers I like are your age, so we'll do a great Godspell.

[37:26] Carolee Carmello: The middle-aged Godspell.

[37:27] Carolee Carmello: Hey, everybody needs God, you know.

[37:29] Carolee Carmello: Everybody needs God. I mean, and that that movie is so weird.

[37:33] Carolee Carmello: It's like um Jacques Brel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris.

[37:38] Carolee Carmello: No. It's also like that where it's like they're singing these songs, but they're kind of just like walking around the city.

[37:45] Carolee Carmello: Is it New York or I think Paris?

[37:48] Carolee Carmello: It's a little it must be Paris, but I think some of it's like filmed in New York too.

[37:53] Carolee Carmello: I mean, it's less, it's even less making sense than Godspell.

[37:57] Carolee Carmello: Um a lot of it reminded me of Hair as well.

[38:00] Carolee Carmello: Uh huh. Like Hair actually like takes place in.

[38:03] Carolee Carmello: I mean, it was actually like and like that weird thing at the end, it's so great where they're on um the top of the world trade center singing beautiful things.

[38:11] Carolee Carmello: Oh yeah, that's it's like so much. You know, uh heartbreaking.

[38:15] Carolee Carmello: It is come sing this week.

[38:30] Carolee Carmello: Oh, and everywhere we go, everywhere we were Um, so what any favorite song in Godspell that you would sing?

[39:13] Carolee Carmello: Uh the the one I have the most clear memory of is um All for the Best, which is that duet that Judas and Jesus is the least vocal song in the show.

[39:26] Carolee Carmello: Like on your list of songs you wish Carolee Carmello would sing in Godspell.

[39:30] Carolee Carmello: Like the like Potter duet for two bottom.

[39:59] Carolee Carmello: Yes, it's all for the all your wrongs will be redressed.

[40:02] Carolee Carmello: Yes, it's all for the You must never be distressed.

[40:05] Carolee Carmello: Yes, it's all for the Someone's got to be oppressed.

[40:09] Carolee Carmello: Yes, it's all for the There was something about that song when I was 10 or 11 or whatever age.

[40:20] Carolee Carmello: It's a great song. It's a great story. I mean, I think I never heard like two melodies put together like that before, and that kind of pattery kind of lyric that tells a story.

[40:31] Carolee Carmello: And that was fascinating to me because I, you know, all I heard on the radio at that time was like Barry Manilow or you know, Carolee King.

[40:39] Carolee Carmello: It wasn't I didn't hear that kind of music. So when I heard that, I was like, oh, this is different.

[40:44] Carolee Carmello: It's funny because that is the least Carolee King song in Godspell. And we're we're also talking to Stephen Schwartz for the side.

[40:51] Carolee Carmello: Yes, I know. And the album that he chose is um Judy Collins Wildflowers, and another one on his list was Laura Nyro.

[40:59] Carolee Carmello: And it's like so much of his songs, especially the ballads, feel very much of that Carolee King, Laurel Canyon era.

[41:16] Carolee Carmello: Oh dear. Three things I pray. To see the Moody. Love the May. So it's funny that if you were turning away from that on the radio listening to Godspell, you would go for the like Irving Berlin style number in the show. Yes. And the performances were so fun. It was also that thing that I had never really been exposed to of like, you know, someone acting a song, you know, and telling a story with a song as opposed to just a fun pop tune that you would hear. I think there was something in me that was really drawn to that.

[42:08] Ben Rimalower: Was that when you were like a little kid? Like before you were even like doing shows in high school or something?

[42:12] Carolee Carmello: Oh yeah, yeah. I didn't do shows in high school.

[42:14] Ben Rimalower: Oh no.

[42:15] Carolee Carmello: But this was like yes. Um this was when I was like fifth grade.

[42:21] Ben Rimalower: And where did you grow up?

[42:22] Carolee Carmello: In Albany, New York.

[42:25] Ben Rimalower: Not too far.

[42:26] Carolee Carmello: No, not too far.

[42:27] Ben Rimalower: So did you come to the city and see shows ever with your family or no?

[42:30] Carolee Carmello: Uh pretty far, isn't it? It's about three hours. You know, the funny thing is my middle school had a trip to New York to see Raisin in the Sun and I missed it. So that was my first chance to see a Broadway show that I was. No, I really was. It was this whole thing. What do I, Carolee Carmello, have to do with Broadway? Forget it. No, it was this comedy of errors. And then in college, I went for the day with some friends, and the first Broadway show I ever saw was when I was in college and saw Ain't Misbehavin', which is a kind of odd exposure to Broadway.

[43:14] Ben Rimalower: Because it's a review.

[43:15] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, and it wasn't anything that I was really sort of emotionally connected to. It didn't have a story. Like I ended up loving shows that had, you know, character-based, you know, stories. And um, I think the first show that really made a huge impact on me was Evita, which I saw later on in college.

[43:35] Ben Rimalower: And did you see Patti LuPone?

[43:38] Carolee Carmello: I don't think I did. You know, I don't even remember because I don't think I knew who anybody was at that point.

[43:44] Ben Rimalower: But you loved the show.

[43:45] Carolee Carmello: I loved it, and I thought this is like cooler than anything I've ever seen on TV or movies or anything. It just really drew me in.

[43:53] Ben Rimalower: Did that motivate you to like go buy the album or anything? Or was it just dorms? And were you like, God, when we do that in the dorms, I should play that part?

[44:03] Carolee Carmello: I don't think I even understood like that that was a possibility. Which I think I probably was a sophomore or something. So I was, you know, 19 or something.

[44:21] Ben Rimalower: Had you seen the movie?

[44:22] Carolee Carmello: Yes. Yeah.

[44:23] Ben Rimalower: So yeah, once again, exposed to it by TV.

[44:26] Carolee Carmello: I did. I love it. Just checking off the list. We always talk about how there's like two kinds of people on Broadway, like the ones that were obsessed with it and like chased it down, and the ones that were just like, ugh, fine. If you want me so badly.

[44:41] Ben Rimalower: Like you, Mary Testa is another guest we had earlier, and you know, she's very similar. It's like she never really had these big Broadway desires.

[44:49] Carolee Carmello: What did Mary want to do?

[44:51] Ben Rimalower: I don't I don't think we've ever talked about that.

[44:53] Carolee Carmello: Oh she wants to be a rock and roll. The album she chose was um Joe Cocker. Uh fascinating. But um but it also makes sense, you know, uh for someone like of Mary's generation growing up listening to rock and roll and seeing Broadway being so different from that that she wouldn't have been, you know, uh well she and I aren't that different in age, are we? Let me just look this up. How old are you, Mary?

[45:18] Carolee Carmello: I think you're my age, so you know I think she's a few years older, but um but yeah, I there certainly was a lot of uh exposure to rock and roll and pop music when I was a kid, I just for whatever reason didn't grab onto it. But still, Evita was a show that made an impression on you, and it was a more contemporary sound.

[45:39] Ben Rimalower: That's true. Um so you loved doing Oliver playing Nancy.

[45:43] Carolee Carmello: Yes it was fun. I don't think at that point I went oh this is it because I didn't change my major or anything you know it didn't impact my plans for the future except as much as you decided to audition for the next show.

[45:43] Ben Rimalower: Yes that's true it was a good experience it was fun it was it didn't feel like a career sort of opportunity was opening up it just felt like oh this is like joining the yeah you know did you enjoy that process of creating a show with a group of people and you know rehearsals and opening night?

[45:43] Carolee Carmello: I still don't enjoy that process. No I don't I don't like rehearsal I don't like creating I like the performing and I did enjoy that. I did I I thought oh this is fun everybody comes and watches this thing you know and and I get to do it I don't know we did it like four times or whatever that part was fun for me and that still is fun for me to do the actual show but I'm not one of those actors who loves the process.

[46:45] Ben Rimalower: So what about the I mean you've done a bunch of these like high profile replacement gigs going and now of course everybody's freaking out because you're gonna be Dolly Levi but you've done that in Mamma Mia and in Kiss Me, Kate and um I want to say you're in Town 1776 yes a lot of replacements so I mean do you in a way prefer I mean obviously you want to get the plots and the nominations and all that but do do you in some ways prefer that because you don't have to do the whole long drawn out process of creating it and you just come in and take over kind of?

[47:20] Carolee Carmello: I I don't mind it at all because you know, especially in a show that's um that's starting from the ground up, like you're in Town or something. You don't have to go through all the crazy, you know, changing the script every day and figuring out all the where the laughs are, and like someone else has figured that out for you, and you just have to learn it, which is much easier for me.

[47:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[47:46] Carolee Carmello: Um, and not that I don't enjoy working on original stuff because I I do find that interesting, it's just um not what makes me happiest, you know.

[47:57] Ben Rimalower: Have you done any revivals that you originated?

[48:00] Carolee Carmello: I would think I would know the answer to this, but um see. I'm just thinking maybe the best thing for Carolee would be to start out in a revival because the show already works.

[48:13] Ben Rimalower: Right. Exactly. The show is figured out.

[48:16] Carolee Carmello: I mean, nobody loves that. I mean, that's such I mean, what's the thing? It's the punishment for Hitler should be to go on the road with a musical, you know, in development. But some people do love the process of figuring out a show and rehearsing and digging into the character and I I don't, you know, look, tech rehearsals are not fun for anybody, but I think there are some actors who love the the beginning of the process, and then once they get into like you know, the third, fourth, fifth week of a run, they're like, Oh, I'm bored.

[48:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[48:48] Carolee Carmello: Which is the opposite for me. I just I love it. I thought of an example, King and I at Paper Mill Playhouse.

[48:54] Ben Rimalower: Oh, well So was that would you have preferred that somebody else rehearsed that and you replaced? Or it was that good because it was already a show that worked from the case.

[49:02] Carolee Carmello: That was good because it was already a show that we knew, you know, we knew it was maybe you just need to be the revival queen.

[49:08] Ben Rimalower: I'll I'll be happy to do that if you want to set that up for me. I love black. Listen, we could dreamcast you in revivals all day long.

[49:15] Carolee Carmello: All right. Oh, and getting a little old. We only have a couple, maybe we can do a lot of things.

[49:20] Ben Rimalower: I would be very happy to see the name. Um I I one of the tragedies of my life is I didn't see you when you did Bells Are Ringing at Reprise or Reprise out in LA. And I think that company is no longer now. You know, I think it was no longer, and now I think that it's coming back.

[49:37] Carolee Carmello: Oh, that's right. Yeah, they I think they had some issues with their whatever board of directors or something, and they stopped for a few years, but I think they're starting up again. It's it's sort of like the Encore series is in New York, but they do it in LA. And that was so much fun. What a fun part that is.

[49:51] Carolee Carmello: Yeah. Yeah, I I really had a good time with that. But again, it's one of those um things like Encores where you're learning it so fast. And like last summer I did my first Mama Rose in Gypsy in Sacramento. And that was also, you know, one of those parts that everybody kind of wants to get to in their life at some point. And I I'm so glad I got to do it, but it was such a quick, you know, uh process that I barely felt like I knew my lines by the time that week's run was over.

[50:23] Ben Rimalower: So you have like a Goldilocks complex with rehearsals because you don't you don't want it too drawn out, but you don't want it rushed.

[50:30] Carolee Carmello: I don't I don't want to feel uh like I'm not ready when the show opens. You know, I I do want to feel prepared.

[50:37] Ben Rimalower: Well that part obviously also needs so much. I mean, if you've been doing Nancy and Oliver in Sacramento, you might have been, you know, happy with the three.

[50:45] Carolee Carmello: Yes, that's true. That's true. I just remember you posting uh on your Instagram, everyone follow Carolee. Uh you posted clips of rehearsal for uh Gypsy, and I just remember like every morning I would wake up and go to your page and like watch the videos of you singing Rose's Turn or whatever, and it was so thrilling. God, that score. And that that show is just such a perfect, perfect gem of a show. Like there's not one ounce of fat on it. I I was so excited to get to do that finally.

[51:11] Ben Rimalower: What was your favorite song in Gypsy to sing?

[51:15] Carolee Carmello: Probably everything's coming up roses, just because it's so it's so dramatic. And I mean Rose's Turn is dramatic too, in the sense that, you know, there's so much emotion in it. But there's something about having someone to sing to and tell the story to. So at the end of Act One, she's singing to her daughter and Herbie, and you know, Rose's Turn is sort of this soliloquy, but yeah, I think.

[51:43] Ben Rimalower: It's less of a song.

[51:44] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, it's sort of a magic breakdown.

[51:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, right.

[51:51] Carolee Carmello: Right. So I I think the end of Act One was probably my favorite because it just felt so satisfying.

[51:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Well, I'm sure you sing the shit out of that song, out of that whole score.

[52:01] Carolee Carmello: It was fun. I hope I get to do it again someday.

[52:04] Ben Rimalower: I your voice is so uh unique. I mean, it's there's not many voices I think that I would like literally just die to hear you sing a specific song. Even just I I just like want to like satisfy my appetite to like know what you would sound like in that song.

[52:20] Carolee Carmello: It's such a um I remember feeling that way when you went into Kiss Me, Kate. It was like ah like I couldn't get there. I think I might have gone to your first preview.

[52:27] Carolee Carmello: Oh my gosh.

[52:29] Ben Rimalower: Another sort of soprano-y ish.

[52:31] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, totally. I mean, you sort of I mean, it's a combination.

[52:34] Ben Rimalower: It's a combination, yeah.

[52:35] Carolee Carmello: But um, well, especially it was a combination when you did it. I mean, you know, when Kelly O'Hara sings it, you wouldn't call it a combination, but you have all that, you know, that your voice is so um like meaty in those hotels, you know.

[53:15] Carolee Carmello: So in along with you.

[53:47] Ben Rimalower: Well, I know I just was gonna say that people kept asking me, did they change the keys for you? And I guess, you know, Marin and I just have such different sounds that even though we were singing them in the same keys, mine sounded somehow beltier than hers.

[54:03] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, which is funny because actually compared to other sopranos, she kind of has that like thicker, richer sound. I mean, it's why, like in like Passion, you know, I never was happy with the other women playing the part, Melissa Errico, whoever. Like, I I didn't want to just hear some soprano come in. I mean, I worship Rebecca Luker, but I don't really her hearing her in Passion isn't that kind of satisfying, you know, thickness of a sound that that Marin Mazzie had. But um, but with you, it's in a whole other level. I mean, it's literally a belt voice that's just in that range, you know. I guess that I mean, have you in all these years now doing that? Have you ever had to study to protect that? Have you had any vocal trouble ever? I mean, um, not serious vocal trouble. I mean, you know, every once in a while if I got bronchitis or I was you know doing double duty rehearsing one show during the day and doing another show at night, I would like get fried.

[55:00] Carolee Carmello: But no, I've never had like surgery or had to take six months off or anything like that.

[55:05] Daniel Nolen: I mean, do you have any kind of um technique or anything that you use?

[55:09] Carolee Carmello: I mean, when you're doing it's so. Do I have any technique? No.

[55:13] Daniel Nolen: Very stressed of you. Listening to you.

[55:14] Ben Rimalower: Is that true? Is she what did she say in that what's a mix?

[55:18] Carolee Carmello: They were like, How did you develop that mix? And she was like, What's a what's a mix? And they said, they said, How do you sing the way you do? How do you hold the notes so long? And she said, Because I want to. So, you know, you're in good company.

[55:29] Carolee Carmello: No, I guess so. I don't think I ever I didn't obsess watching interviews of Barbra Streisand either.

[55:34] Daniel Nolen: I need to do that.

[55:36] Carolee Carmello: Thank you. Well, what's that thing with a couple of things? I have watched a few YouTube though, now that I'm the research, the research.

[55:44] Ben Rimalower: Well, and did you see um did you see Bette Midler do it?

[55:48] Carolee Carmello: I didn't. I saw Betty Buckley now.

[55:50] Ben Rimalower: So and I've seen clips of of Bette and Bernadette. Did you ever see Carol Channing do it?

[55:55] Carolee Carmello: Uh only online. I never saw it live.

[55:58] Ben Rimalower: Did you ever do were you ever Irene Malloy or anything?

[56:00] Carolee Carmello: No. That would seem like such a national for you.

[56:04] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, too old now.

[56:05] Carolee Carmello: Yeah.

[56:05] Ben Rimalower: Well, listen, depends who's playing Dolly.

[56:08] Carolee Carmello: We could if Barbra Streisand was playing Dolly, exactly.

[56:11] Ben Rimalower: You know, you could be uh Louise if she ever gets back to doing Gypsy.

[56:14] Carolee Carmello: I mean, I guess Irene is a widow, so she could be, yeah.

[56:17] Ben Rimalower: You go.

[56:18] Carolee Carmello: Well, because when Carol Channing did it in 78, Florence Lacey was that the last was um no, the last time it was 94.

[56:24] Ben Rimalower: Oh wow.

[56:25] Carolee Carmello: But Florence Lacey was Irene Led both times.

[56:28] Ben Rimalower: Um because everybody was the whole thing just transporting.

[56:33] Carolee Carmello: Yes. I mean, she I would say almost I mean, I I don't think her voice has quite the like um uh I think the top of your voice is prettier than hers, and you have to be like Carol Channing or Florence.

[56:48] Ben Rimalower: Your whole voice is prettier than her, I would say maybe in the comedy department, but not vocally.

[56:53] Carolee Carmello: But but Florence Lacey has kind of I would say the closest comparison I would have thought maybe to your voice.

[56:58] Ben Rimalower: I think you have a little more like a.

[57:00] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, she she did and she has that that very kind of just like strong, you know, you just kind of feel like power resonance just is like she's got an amazing voice.

[57:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, she still sounds great.

[57:12] Carolee Carmello: Yeah.

[57:13] Ben Rimalower: What's a what's a mix?

[57:14] Carolee Carmello: What's a mix? Um well, okay. Speaking of uh playing Evita, you played Evita, I know.

[57:20] Daniel Nolen: I think I've even listened to a clip on YouTube, maybe I could do something at some point. Maybe I just maybe I saw a program on eBay. I definitely have had some nerdy like stalking Caroline moment of your Evita.

[57:31] Carolee Carmello: Maybe it was just a visual, but I will I will find it. Jeez, I don't know. I mean, that's so long ago, I can't even imagine that there are videos out there.

[57:39] Daniel Nolen: I mean, there might be somebody, you know, well, there's videos of the Broadway production, so I mean true.

[57:44] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, but I mean, this was at a dinner theater up in Westchester.

[57:47] Daniel Nolen: And I really That's my dream to eat and watch you play Evita.

[57:50] Carolee Carmello: Right, right. That is one of the the most amazing roles.

[57:55] Carolee Carmello: I mean, I was actually the matinee of Evita. It was Paige O'Hara was remember Paige, she was using the Bell.

[58:03] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[58:03] Carolee Carmello: And she did the nighttime, and I didn't have to be in the ensemble at night. I just came in and did two or three, I think three shows a week.

[58:11] Carolee Carmello: That was um, I think Nancy Opel's gig for a while, uh, in the Broadway production also.

[58:15] Ben Rimalower: Oh, Terry Klausner and then um and I think Florence Lacey too at one point.

[58:20] Carolee Carmello: Um speaking of Paige O'Hara your knowledge of musical theater history is cyclopedic.

[58:26] Daniel Nolen: It ends it ends in the year 2000.

[58:29] Carolee Carmello: Does it go?

[58:31] Daniel Nolen: So no dear of enhancing I mean I love Jarvin Hanson. I've actually seen it a few times. Like I mean, I know more than like the average Joe, but I there's huge things I just don't know.

[58:42] Carolee Carmello: Yeah.

[58:43] Daniel Nolen: Um but you're I Well, I'm so impressed. You're I I mean I well, I remember seeing you in Falsettos and um just being like, uh, oh you know what it was? When I saw it on Broadway, I didn't see you. I saw Maureen Moore.

[58:55] Carolee Carmello: Okay.

[58:55] Daniel Nolen: And then when you guys did it in LA um at the dooliver. Right, that was the original company. They had they had like $20 tickets, rush tickets or something. And I was like, I think I was like a junior or senior in high school, and I saw it like five times.

[59:07] Carolee Carmello: And was that Trina?

[59:09] Daniel Nolen: She was Cordelia.

[59:09] Carolee Carmello: You were both.

[59:10] Daniel Nolen: I never got to see her.

[59:11] Carolee Carmello: You did both, right? Cordelia and Trina on the road, yes.

[59:14] Carolee Carmello: But that LA company was the original Broadway company, so I I was playing Cordelia in that.

[59:19] Daniel Nolen: But I just remember thinking like, oh my god, like this is such uh you had so much more of a presence uh as Cordelia. There was something that you brought it I don't know what it I remember so much your laugh as Cordelia.

[59:36] Carolee Carmello: It was like you had a relationship with Mendel, like you would laugh at his jokes, and there was something I feel like I'm gonna cry. It was like it brought the family together in this different way.

[59:47] Daniel Nolen: I mean that was just one way that it was. But it was the in a show that was so much about the f creating family and like chosen family, you just you had these relationships in these ways that you know the material didn't necessarily um require.

[1:00:04] Carolee Carmello: It was like that you Yeah, exactly. It didn't hand it to you, you know.

[1:00:07] Daniel Nolen: And then and then something like in um Unlikely Lovers, just the way that your voice, you know, wrote up on those what what I guess Cordelia sings that was it, the harmony or just the high melody or what you know, but you I just remember you kind of like on the top of it just being really um it was just so emotional because it felt so connected to the the story and the characters.

[1:00:29] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, I mean I I'm still so sad that we didn't record the Broadway company.

[1:00:34] Daniel Nolen: But yeah.

[1:00:35] Carolee Carmello: But yeah, singing Unlikely Lovers Every Night with Michael and Steven and Heather, that was like one of the highlights of my life. It's just so such a beautiful I mean, the vocal arrangement, the sentiment, the you know, that that piece of music is just you know unparalleled.

[1:00:54] Daniel Nolen: Did you know that show before you did it? Like had you seen Falsettoland or anything?

[1:00:57] Carolee Carmello: I had seen it, yeah, but I mean I I didn't know it well. I I just had seen it once and was impressed.

[1:01:04] Carolee Carmello: I had never seen March of the Falsettos, so I didn't really know.

[1:01:07] Daniel Nolen: That's before I think you even were in New York, isn't that right? It's like eighty one.

[1:01:11] Carolee Carmello: It must be. I I moved here in eighty three, so I'm I guess I just missed it.

[1:01:15] Carolee Carmello: And I didn't see the production that they did in Connecticut, which was I think the first time they put it on the colour.

[1:01:20] Daniel Nolen: Oh, it's Gratiella Danielle during it, and that's when Barbara Walsh first played Trinidad.

[1:01:24] Carolee Carmello: Right, right. Um, yeah, I I loved it. I was sad that her trend wasn't recorded.

[1:01:29] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:01:29] Carolee Carmello: Um she was great. But uh wait, how did we get onto falsettos?

[1:01:33] Daniel Nolen: Um, there's definitely some Caroline roles that we need to do.

[1:01:37] Carolee Carmello: I totally get deeper into.

[1:01:39] Daniel Nolen: So I've seen you perform. I think I I saw you at Carnegie Hall in in a concert with Cheyenne Jackson and can't remember who the other people were, but you sang Don't Run My Parade.

[1:01:51] Carolee Carmello: Oh my gosh.

[1:01:52] Daniel Nolen: Fabulous.

[1:01:53] Carolee Carmello: And then I saw you at Joe's pub, I think it was Justin Sayre's The Meeting, and you sang 50%.

[1:01:58] Daniel Nolen: And those two songs.

[1:01:59] Carolee Carmello: I missed that.

[1:02:00] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:02:01] Carolee Carmello: Those two songs were like that. You can do ballroom for another 50 years. You don't have any rush.

[1:02:05] Daniel Nolen: All those thousands of productions of ballroom. If anyone offers you ballroom, you say no, you're busy, you'll do that when you're older.

[1:02:12] Carolee Carmello: Right, right. You don't need you wasting time on ballroom now. There's plenty of time for ballroom.

[1:02:16] Daniel Nolen: No, but those two songs were so because I love those songs, of course.

[1:02:20] Carolee Carmello: Yeah.

[1:02:20] Daniel Nolen: Um, and when I and in both of those instances, you know, whenever I I was sitting in my seat and I could feel where you were going. I was like, okay, this is what the song is. I can't believe this is happening.

[1:02:31] Carolee Carmello: Like Carolee singing these two Belty. Well, I guess 50%'s not super Belty, but it's just such a wonderful song for any actress to sing.

[1:02:38] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:02:39] Carolee Carmello: Uh what other songs are.

[1:02:39] Daniel Nolen: Lyrics.

[1:02:40] Carolee Carmello: The lyrics are so absolutely. What other songs do you like to sing like in cabaret setting or well?

[1:02:46] Carolee Carmello: I don't like to sing in cowboy setting for one.

[1:02:49] Daniel Nolen: This is okay. This is that working that looks weird.

[1:02:51] Carolee Carmello: Are we having an ongoing um we have a lot of people? I've been trying to convince Carolee to do an album.

[1:02:57] Ben Rimalower: Absolutely.

[1:02:58] Carolee Carmello: I was just for an act, right? And she's very resistant to what I'm saying.

[1:03:04] Ben Rimalower: I've been listening to that's mild. I've been listening to a lot of um your stuff, your cast recordings and stuff the last couple days, and I was like, oh, I just wish I had a solo album, Caroline's to listen to right now.

[1:03:14] Carolee Carmello: I'm sorry, everybody. I you know, as as you and I have discussed, Ben, I my big sort of stumbling block is that I feel like most of those albums are just sort of vanity projects, you know.

[1:03:28] Carolee Carmello: I mean, it's it's really just I I don't know. Here's me singing ten songs, and I I don't kind of understand the point of it.

[1:03:37] Daniel Nolen: 1314.

[1:03:40] Carolee Carmello: Um and I have s I have done concert slash cabaret stuff in the past.

[1:03:46] Carolee Carmello: Um if I, you know, I'm in between theater gigs, but I just don't enjoy it as much.

[1:03:51] Daniel Nolen: Have you done it?

[1:03:52] Carolee Carmello: I don't think recently last um last well this past like January, February, I did it like some concerts in California.

[1:04:00] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I was like, what is wrong with me having a lot of things?

[1:04:02] Carolee Carmello: It wasn't here, yeah.

[1:04:03] Daniel Nolen: It wasn't here.

[1:04:04] Carolee Carmello: Um what was it like a symphony kind of deal?

[1:04:06] Carolee Carmello: No, it was just um Phil Reno playing piano and I did a bunch of songs. Don't read on my parade.

[1:04:11] Daniel Nolen: Uh Palm Springs and up in the Sacramento sort of area.

[1:04:17] Carolee Carmello: And did what happened? Somebody just called your agent and you were like, okay, fine, I'll do it.

[1:04:21] Carolee Carmello: Kind of.

[1:04:22] Carolee Carmello: Yeah. I like I don't I don't pursue it because I just don't enjoy it that much. But it it you know, it sometimes is a good filler when I'm looking for work.

[1:04:33] Daniel Nolen: This is new information too.

[1:04:34] Carolee Carmello: Okay, so what was the set list, for example?

[1:04:36] Carolee Carmello: Um, so I did sort of, you know, retrospective on shows that I I sang Nancy from Oliver.

[1:04:44] Carolee Carmello: I sang, you know, As Long as long as he needs me. I sang um uh let's see. I'm trying to go through the list of my see I've blocked it out because I don't enjoy it.

[1:04:57] Daniel Nolen: No, because I don't feel like that I mean I I love parade more than almost anything I've ever done in my life, but I don't think that stuff works in a cabaret kind of setting.

[1:05:07] Carolee Carmello: Um maybe I guess it's a duet is the problem.

[1:05:10] Daniel Nolen: Um yeah, I suppose so.

[1:05:13] Carolee Carmello: That that could work, but uh Phil Reno can sing, can he?

[1:05:18] Daniel Nolen: Actually, I think he did sing that one time with me at some point.

[1:05:22] Carolee Carmello: The first time I ever did a concert with him, he he comes from Ohio and he does like once a year he does a concert in his hometown and he invites a Broadway person to come and sing.

[1:05:32] Carolee Carmello: And so he called me and was like, Can you put together 50 minutes? You know?

[1:05:36] Daniel Nolen: So I was like, uh So we kind of threw together some songs, and I think that was on the list.

[1:05:41] Carolee Carmello: We actually did wait all the wasted time.

[1:05:55] Carolee Carmello: Still to pro the days come by to feel that I don't satisfy and I've never knew anything at all.

[1:06:15] Carolee Carmello: I never knew anything.

[1:06:25] Carolee Carmello: Um yeah, it's just I don't know. Some people love it and and there's something about talking about myself and my own life that is very uncomfortable for me.

[1:06:37] Carolee Carmello: I'm much more happy in in a wig and a costume and a role where I'm telling a story through somebody else's words.

[1:06:46] Daniel Nolen: Did you see um Sharon A. Scott's show um Everyday Everyday Rapture?

[1:06:51] Carolee Carmello: I didn't.

[1:06:52] Daniel Nolen: I wonder what you would think of that kind of uh But it's also sort of autobiographical, right?

[1:06:57] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, but very um because I think when you and I had talked about it, you had said, well, maybe you would be interested in something like Elaine Stritch of Liberty.

[1:07:04] Carolee Carmello: Yes.

[1:07:04] Daniel Nolen: And then I was thinking, you know, but that just now when you said talking about yourself, I was thinking Elaine Stritch of Liberty is still very much talking about yourself.

[1:07:12] Carolee Carmello: It's true.

[1:07:12] Daniel Nolen: Um although I'm finding out more and more how little of it was actually true.

[1:07:16] Carolee Carmello: But it was, you know, it was the version she was presenting.

[1:07:21] Daniel Nolen: Oh, interesting.

[1:07:23] Carolee Carmello: There's a book coming out about her. I just read like a advanced galley of it. It's scary.

[1:07:26] Daniel Nolen: Um but uh but um but Sherry's show was m through more of uh like funhouse mirror.

[1:07:35] Carolee Carmello: I mean, it was based on her life, but it was really um a theatrical feeling.

[1:07:40] Daniel Nolen: It was very theatrical and and and not even, you know, yeah, not just in terms of changing details or whatever, but you know, just this it was so stylized into the this the Mr. Rogers meddley or thing, you know, it was very um creative and uh what's the word inventive.

[1:07:57] Carolee Carmello: And and then her other shows she's done since then, like was Peace of Meat, was that the one at 54 below? Have been r I mean if I'm sure they're based on experiences she'd ha she's had, but they were, you know, essentially fiction.

[1:08:09] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:08:12] Carolee Carmello: I mean, I guess that's the well she has a good partner, Dick Scanlon.

[1:08:16] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[1:08:16] Carolee Carmello: They've got a great relationship. You know, I'm just saying, Carol.

[1:08:20] Ben Rimalower: It did. It's gonna happen someday, but happen sometime.

[1:08:26] Carolee Carmello: Well, with you the good news is your voice shows zero signs of any aging or wearing hair.

[1:08:33] Carolee Carmello: Oh I don't know if that's true, but thank you.

[1:08:35] Daniel Nolen: Is that is that I mean is do you do you feel like oh I I miss I can't sing this note anyway I used to be able to or you know

[1:08:37] Carolee Carmello: Yeah I mean sometimes if someone asks me to sing something that let's say from a show that I did, you know, 20 years ago and I listen to the recording I go, oh wow, I don't know if I can do that anymore.

[1:08:54] Carolee Carmello: You know I I'm I can s I guess I can still hit the notes but it's not as easy as it was, you know like when I was in my twenties. I don't I think it's unavoidable. But I I feel pretty healthy so far and Hello Dolly coming up doesn't scare me too much. You know it's yeah it's not one of those you know if I had to dive into you know a Vita right now I'd probably be a little nervous. But so far I'm hanging in there.

[1:09:20] Ben Rimalower: Well you've got a good 20 years on all those ladies that um have been coming before you in the park. So if they can if they can get through it.

[1:09:28] Carolee Carmello: Yeah there's many ways to approach it. I mean that's the amazing thing I'm learning about Dolly is like just so many different approaches to it yeah vocally and different approaches to it comedically and and it still works. You know the pieces is so sort of secure that you can you can have Pearl Bailey and you can have Bernadette Peters and Donna Murphy and you know all these different I'm now so happy that the tour is going on and that you're going into it because I was so sad when it closed I really had thought as you know as soon as it was Bernadette, I was like, yes, let's do this. I mean, I just wanted I was like, somebody call Kristen Chenoweth. I mean, you know, why that's the fun. I mean, that's the whole reason I love Broadway is for that to happen, you know.

And um, it, you know, I guess Scott Rooted in just, you know, if it wasn't that kind of Bette Midler money, he it wasn't worth his time, you know, or I think it was an expensive show to run. It was hard to make that nut. But but I mean, but you know, it it it didn't seem like he was willing to like try very hard, you know. Like it was like, nope, we're done. And um, and so you know, I kind of thought when they had the first set of dates of the tour, that was gonna be it. I didn't even get my hopes up. And then when Craig Burns texted me, Top Secret, who's going to Hello Dolly, I was like, ah, but I mean, I remember you know, when Bette was announced, you know, like a year before Hello Dolly even opened, people were already, you know, chitter chitter chattering about replacements and tour.

[1:11:00] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, and your name came up so many times.

[1:11:02] Carolee Carmello: I was like, I love Carolee in this role, you know.

[1:11:04] Ben Rimalower: Oh, well, we're all getting our getting true, yeah.

[1:11:09] Daniel Nolen: Well, we we love to play that game, um, which I guess is a good segue for our game.

[1:11:13] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, let's do it.

[1:11:14] Daniel Nolen: So we have a little game that we play on the podcast, which we like.

[1:11:18] Carolee Carmello: Is it a test of my theater number?

[1:11:20] Daniel Nolen: No, no, no, no, no.

[1:11:22] Daniel Nolen: Uh it's much worse. It's called Dolly Concert Kill.

[1:11:27] Carolee Carmello: And you're the first Dolly that we're playing.

[1:11:30] Daniel Nolen: What does that mean?

[1:11:31] Daniel Nolen: So we give you three, you know the game Fuck Mary Kill.

[1:11:33] Carolee Carmello: Yes.

[1:11:34] Daniel Nolen: So it's kind of like that. We give you three performers, and you choose one that you would like to see as Dolly Levi.

[1:11:35] Carolee Carmello: Okay.

[1:11:35] Daniel Nolen: One that you would like to see in concert, and one, unfortunately, who you will give the axe.

[1:11:47] Carolee Carmello: Oh, that's awful.

[1:11:48] Carolee Carmello: Okay, so and these are real people.

[1:11:50] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:11:51] Carolee Carmello: And I'm gonna give the axe.

[1:11:52] Carolee Carmello: You're right, I'm gonna hate it.

[1:11:54] Daniel Nolen: We could do dead people, so she filled out.

[1:11:55] Carolee Carmello: Oh okay.

[1:11:57] Daniel Nolen: Well, we have a remedial version we've created if you're too sensitive.

[1:12:02] Daniel Nolen: We can do Flack Mary Chill.

[1:12:04] Carolee Carmello: No, sorry.

[1:12:05] Carolee Carmello: Dolly concert chill.

[1:12:06] Daniel Nolen: Dolly Concert is like one person you just give a vacation.

[1:12:10] Carolee Carmello: Okay.

[1:12:11] Carolee Carmello: So I think Julie Andrews.

[1:12:13] Carolee Carmello: Yes, for sure.

[1:12:14] Carolee Carmello: Julie Andrews.

[1:12:15] Carolee Carmello: Um and um uh what was the other?

[1:12:18] Carolee Carmello: Uh uh Lesley Ann Warren?

[1:12:21] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, Lesley Ann Warren and Marni Nixon.

[1:12:24] Carolee Carmello: No, not Marni Nixon.

[1:12:26] Carolee Carmello: Um uh Julie Andrews, Lesley Ann Warren, and Barbara Cook.

[1:12:26] Daniel Nolen: Barbara Cook.

[1:12:32] Carolee Carmello: Oh, Barbara!

[1:12:35] Carolee Carmello: Oh, let's see.

[1:12:36] Carolee Carmello: We're in that soprano closet and we got him so excited.

[1:12:39] Carolee Carmello: See, who would I want to see as Dolly Levi?

[1:12:43] Carolee Carmello: Um, say them again.

[1:12:48] Daniel Nolen: Barbara Cook, Lesley Ann Warren.

[1:12:50] Daniel Nolen: Warren and Julie Andrews.

[1:12:51] Carolee Carmello: Julie Andrews would be really strange as Dolly Levi.

[1:12:54] Carolee Carmello: So I think I'm gonna have to put her in one of the other categories.

[1:12:57] Carolee Carmello: Um I kind of want to see the drag queen do Julie Andrews.

[1:13:01] Carolee Carmello: So it's Victor Victoria Dolly.

[1:13:04] Carolee Carmello: Um I guess Lesley Ann Warren, because I think she has a really good sense of comedy.

[1:13:08] Carolee Carmello: So funny.

[1:13:09] Carolee Carmello: So funny.

[1:13:10] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:13:10] Carolee Carmello: Uh so I'd put her as Dolly and in concert Barbara V Ju uh Julie.

[1:13:17] Daniel Nolen: This is the classic, the classic Broadway Soprano debate.

[1:13:21] Carolee Carmello: Wow.

[1:13:22] Carolee Carmello: Um gosh.

[1:13:25] Carolee Carmello: By the way, the rules of the game, you get to choose.

[1:13:27] Carolee Carmello: I mean, you don't have to specify, but it's of your choice when concerts.

[1:13:31] Carolee Carmello: You don't have to worry about uh her vocal surgery.

[1:13:34] Carolee Carmello: It could be uh peak when whatever era of the performer you want.

[1:13:38] Carolee Carmello: Oh my God.

[1:13:38] Carolee Carmello: They're both so good though.

[1:13:41] Carolee Carmello: I mean, the thing about Barbara Cook was she uh her her take on material was so interesting.

[1:13:50] Carolee Carmello: You know what I mean?

[1:13:51] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:13:51] Carolee Carmello: I I feel like Julie Did you see her in concert?

[1:13:55] Carolee Carmello: No, I didn't.

[1:13:56] Carolee Carmello: I mean, I've seen things on TV and on YouTube, but I never saw her live.

[1:14:00] Carolee Carmello: But I think I would pick her in concert.

[1:14:02] Daniel Nolen: Classy choice, classy choice.

[1:14:04] Carolee Carmello: Sorry, Julie.

[1:14:05] Carolee Carmello: Sherry Jules.

[1:14:06] Carolee Carmello: But you know, Julie is one of those people, people uh ask me sometimes, like, is there any person that you like totally fangirled out or or freaked out when you met them?

[1:14:14] Carolee Carmello: And Julie Andrews came to see Finding Neverland.

[1:14:17] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah.

[1:14:18] Carolee Carmello: And she was lovely and came backstage and took pictures with everyone and was just so generous.

[1:14:23] Carolee Carmello: And she was one of like a handful of people in my whole life that I just burst into tears when I started talking about.

[1:14:30] Carolee Carmello: That's so sad.

[1:14:31] Carolee Carmello: I can't believe I'm meeting you in this.

[1:14:32] Carolee Carmello: Oh my god.

[1:14:34] Carolee Carmello: And then there's this like group picture of all of us, and I have like tears streaming down my face.

[1:14:39] Carolee Carmello: And some of the younger people in the cast were like, who is she again?

[1:14:42] Daniel Nolen: Oh dead.

[1:14:43] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, well, I mean, there were a lot of kids in that show.

[1:14:46] Ben Rimalower: Oh, little kids.

[1:14:47] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, no, not like the 20 somethings.

[1:14:50] Carolee Carmello: Matt Morrison was like, excuse me.

[1:14:53] Carolee Carmello: I'm sorry, who are you?

[1:14:55] Carolee Carmello: Um, and the other person I totally did that to was um I auditioned for you were talking about Bells are ringing before, and I auditioned for the Broadway revival when it happened.

[1:15:05] Daniel Nolen: Oh, that Tina Landau one?

[1:15:06] Carolee Carmello: Yes.

[1:15:07] Carolee Carmello: Yeah.

[1:15:08] Carolee Carmello: And uh, and when I went in the room, I didn't realize that uh, you know, that the writers were gonna be there, and I was like total I totally Camden Green that the they were there behind the table.

[1:15:21] Carolee Carmello: I mean, they weren't really involved, but they were sitting there and they introduced me to everybody down the line before I sang, and I totally burst into tears.

[1:15:29] Carolee Carmello: I was like, I can't believe it you're here.

[1:15:33] Carolee Carmello: It was embarrassing.

[1:15:34] Daniel Nolen: Why were they such stars to you?

[1:15:36] Carolee Carmello: Be like was it like I think 'cause I had already done the show in LA and I just knew how brilliant it was.

[1:15:42] Carolee Carmello: I just was such a fan of the show, and I just thought it's it the writing was so you know perfect to me that you know they they were rock stars.

[1:15:52] Daniel Nolen: I don't know.

[1:15:53] Carolee Carmello: Oh, I love it.

[1:15:54] Carolee Carmello: See, she purports not to be a musical theater nerd, but she's truth and over.

[1:15:58] Carolee Carmello: But I wouldn't I wasn't when I was young.

[1:16:00] Carolee Carmello: I maybe if I'd been exposed to Comden and Green when I was a teenager, it would have been a different story.

[1:16:05] Carolee Carmello: But I think you know, I didn't know bells are ringing until I Yeah, well, I mean, none of us did, right?

[1:16:11] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, it's like not um although I guess there's a I've never seen it, but there's a movie with Judy Holliday.

[1:16:16] Carolee Carmello: Oh, it's great in the era, is it?

[1:16:18] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, all right.

[1:16:19] Daniel Nolen: We're watching that.

[1:16:19] Carolee Carmello: That might be a good Fire Island film festival.

[1:16:21] Daniel Nolen: Oh yeah, yeah.

[1:16:22] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, no, it's really good.

[1:16:23] Carolee Carmello: It's really good.

[1:16:24] Ben Rimalower: Well, do we do we have I mean we we have Carolee?

[1:16:27] Ben Rimalower: How can we I'm sure there's a million more questions we want to ask her, but we she's she's given us well, so where you have a wonderful social media presence.

[1:16:35] Carolee Carmello: I follow you on Twitter, Instagram.

[1:16:38] Carolee Carmello: One one Ellen Carolee, two in Carmello.

[1:16:41] Ben Rimalower: Thank you.

[1:16:43] Carolee Carmello: Um and then upcoming dates, anything to plug?

[1:16:47] Carolee Carmello: Well, the national tour of Hello Dolly.

[1:16:49] Carolee Carmello: Hello Dolly, so I'm so I'm starting.

[1:16:51] Carolee Carmello: Well, they're out now, but I joined the tour in Kansas City at the end of September.

[1:16:56] Carolee Carmello: Uh and then we'll be in the Midwest for a while.

[1:16:58] Carolee Carmello: I think the farthest west we get is Tucson, and then like down to Naples, Florida, and up to Hartford, Connecticut, and Philadelphia the last year.

[1:17:09] Carolee Carmello: Before my kids were born.

[1:17:11] Carolee Carmello: So yeah, like twenty-five years ago.

[1:17:13] Carolee Carmello: Um, my son is 18.

[1:17:15] Carolee Carmello: My daughter is twenty three.

[1:17:18] Carolee Carmello: Yes, twenty-three.

[1:17:20] Carolee Carmello: Uh and yeah.

[1:17:22] Carolee Carmello: So this'll be a very different experience than the tour I did when I was in my twenties.

[1:17:28] Ben Rimalower: Well, and now what was the last tour?

[1:17:30] Ben Rimalower: Was it chess?

[1:17:30] Carolee Carmello: No.

[1:17:31] Carolee Carmello: Um, I guess falsettos probably.

[1:17:34] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:17:34] Carolee Carmello: Was that that wasn't a big tour, was it?

[1:17:36] Carolee Carmello: It was pretty big.

[1:17:37] Carolee Carmello: Yeah.

[1:17:37] Carolee Carmello: I did two different tours of it with yeah, so I think uh yeah.

[1:17:43] Carolee Carmello: It was like week stops, yeah, around the country.

[1:17:47] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, it was interesting to play that show around the country.

[1:17:50] Carolee Carmello: I'm sure recent tour when it was in LA.

[1:17:54] Carolee Carmello: Um, LA is not so.

[1:17:56] Carolee Carmello: Yeah.

[1:17:56] Ben Rimalower: Well, I think this one only did a few, it was only like six months, maybe or something.

[1:18:00] Carolee Carmello: Um, but I was like, I well, you can answer this.

[1:18:04] Carolee Carmello: Like, what is it like?

[1:18:05] Carolee Carmello: 'Cause even in LA where it was at the um the Amundsen, I was like, oh I I missed the Walter Kerr.

[1:18:12] Carolee Carmello: This is like too big.

[1:18:14] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[1:18:14] Carolee Carmello: Um that works.

[1:18:16] Carolee Carmello: That's an intimate theater compared to some of those roadhouses that they would be in.

[1:18:20] Carolee Carmello: True, yeah.

[1:18:21] Carolee Carmello: It was uh well, we didn't play huge, huge houses, but but it is much harder to play a show like that on the road because the intimacy is so important in that show.

[1:18:32] Carolee Carmello: Um but at the time, you know, when the show had just opened on Broadway and we went to the to the you know, hinterlands to play that show, it was not like I'm sure what you saw in LA.

[1:18:44] Carolee Carmello: I mean the audiences were were kind of shocked.

[1:18:47] Carolee Carmello: I I remember we played Florida, I forget which city it was now, if it was Miami or Fort Lauderdale, but it was, you know, people were walking out.

[1:18:56] Carolee Carmello: And I remember when the when the lights came up on uh you know Wizard and Marvin in bed.

[1:19:03] Carolee Carmello: Um I we heard from the back of the theater, Oi, again with the boys.

[1:19:12] Carolee Carmello: It wasn't always so accepted, but it was important to do, but it was hard.

[1:19:18] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:19:19] Daniel Nolen: Was that um something like working in theater, like as like a straight woman, like coming from like Albany?

[1:19:25] Daniel Nolen: Like, was that were you uh surprised, or you know, did that was that a culture shock for you coming into this like super gay world, like when you were when you were first in the city.

[1:19:38] Carolee Carmello: I don't remember being shocked.

[1:19:40] Carolee Carmello: I mean, I guess community theater probably is pretty gay to be honest.

[1:19:44] Carolee Carmello: Um, I don't remember a lot of exposure, but you know, before I moved to New York, but I but I also don't remember being particularly like you know, thrown by any of it.

[1:19:56] Carolee Carmello: Um I think I enjoyed the the variety of people and you know different backgrounds and different colors and shapes and sexual preferences.

[1:20:06] Carolee Carmello: I think I I think that's what I still love about theater that it just appeals to so many different kinds of people, and there's there's such a feeling of like open arms that that the theater community embraces people who maybe are not so embraced in other parts of the world.

[1:20:25] Ben Rimalower: I think that's still married Dolly Levi right now.

[1:20:27] Carolee Carmello: Does it?

[1:20:28] Carolee Carmello: Totally not acquaintances, friends.

[1:20:31] Daniel Nolen: Exactly.

[1:20:31] Carolee Carmello: You know my lines better than I do.

[1:20:35] Carolee Carmello: You better learn them.

[1:20:36] Carolee Carmello: There's probably a lot of guys in those audiences that know it.

[1:20:38] Carolee Carmello: I'm working hard right now.

[1:20:40] Carolee Carmello: Yes, my my late husband, Ephraim Levi.

[1:20:42] Carolee Carmello: I always uh loved life wherever you found it, right?

[1:20:46] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[1:20:46] Carolee Carmello: Oh my goodness.

[1:20:47] Carolee Carmello: Well, Carolee, we love you.

[1:20:49] Daniel Nolen: We love you, Carolee.

[1:20:50] Carolee Carmello: Oh, I love you guys.

[1:20:51] Carolee Carmello: We're so grateful to you.

[1:20:52] Carolee Carmello: This is so much fun.

[1:20:53] Carolee Carmello: We can't wait to see you in Dallas.

[1:20:55] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[1:20:55] Daniel Nolen: We'll have to do a live, live vlog.

[1:20:58] Carolee Carmello: Right.

[1:20:58] Carolee Carmello: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:21:00] Carolee Carmello: She just sang before the brain doesn't lie.

[1:21:03] Daniel Nolen: We're dying.

[1:21:05] Carolee Carmello: Well, thank you for your for being such, you know, amazing uh encyclopedic brains and for uh just making me feel good about what I've done in my career.

[1:21:17] Carolee Carmello: You guys are lovely.

[1:21:18] Carolee Carmello: I feel good with decades of goosebumps.

[1:21:22] Daniel Nolen: Thank you so much.

[1:21:23] Carolee Carmello: Yay!

[1:21:27] Daniel Nolen: Thanks for listening to Ben Rimalower's Broken Records on Broadway World.

[1:21:31] Daniel Nolen: For more episodes, visit Broadway World's iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever podcasts do be.

[1:21:37] Daniel Nolen: Come back next week as we begin our special Winter in a Summer Town mini season featuring the most fabulous talents from Provincetown and Fire Island.

[1:21:45] Daniel Nolen: First up, Tony Award winner Faith Prince coming in to talk about Liza with a Z.

[1:21:49] Daniel Nolen: And after Faith, we'll be chatting with Pixie Aventura, Barla Gene Merman, Linda Eder, and Miss Richfield 1981.

[1:21:56] Daniel Nolen: This episode was edited by me, Daniel Nolen.

[1:21:58] Daniel Nolen: Thanks to Emmy Winning composer and lyricist Lance Horn for the Broken Records theme song.

[1:22:03] Daniel Nolen: Follow us both, Ben Rimalower and Daniel Nolen on all y'all socials.

[1:22:06] Daniel Nolen: That's Ben Rimalower, B E N R I M A L O W E R.

[1:22:13] Daniel Nolen: And that's Nolan with an E, not Nolan with an A.

[1:22:15] Daniel Nolen: Nolan with an A, isn't it?