This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Ben Rimalower: Broken records, the albums you wouldn't shut up about.

[0:06] Daniel Nolen: Broken records.

[0:07] Ben Rimalower: The music our guests can't live without like Judy.

[0:10] Daniel Nolen: Barbara, Liza, Bent, Betty, Audra, Bernadette.

[0:14] Ben Rimalower: We broadcast this podcast with hopes that someday we might get Patty LaPole.

[0:36] Ben Rimalower: I'm Ben Rimalower, and I'm here with my lovely co-host, Daniel Nolen.

[0:39] Daniel Nolen: Hey y'all.

[0:40] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest is the star of the Classic Stage Company's's upcoming revival of Assassins.

[0:45] Ben Rimalower: Four-time Tony nominee Judy Kuhn.

[0:48] Ben Rimalower: We'll be chatting with Judy live from BroadwayCon in front of a live audience.

[0:52] Daniel Nolen: I hope they're a good one.

[0:54] Ben Rimalower: I'm sure they will be.

[0:56] Ben Rimalower: It's Judy Kuhn.

[0:57] Daniel Nolen: She is kind of Broadway's secret weapon.

[1:00] Ben Rimalower: Since her 1985 Broadway debut in The Mystery of Edwin Drood as understudy to both Betty Buckley and Patty Cohen, she's been that elusive soprano who belts.

[1:07] Daniel Nolen: Uh excuse me, she is a belter who sings soprano.

[1:13] Ben Rimalower: Fair.

[1:13] Ben Rimalower: But she's been doing it all. I mean, not only is she a Tony-nominated Cosette who also made an acclaimed Fantine, she's gotten more Tony nominations for roles originated by Barbara Cook.

[1:24] Daniel Nolen: Like She Loves Me.

[1:25] Ben Rimalower: And Elaine Paige.

[1:26] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[1:27] Ben Rimalower: I mean, how's that for versatility?

[1:29] Daniel Nolen: And she can really act. Her fourth and most recent Tony nomination for Fun Home recognized a depth and subtlety rarely seen in musical theater.

[1:38] Ben Rimalower: Oh, so true.

[1:39] Ben Rimalower: Today Judy is coming in to talk about Joni Mitchell's Blue, which is one of my favorite albums of all time.

[1:46] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god.

[1:47] Daniel Nolen: So wait, that's the one with um uh Last Time I Saw Richard.

[1:47] Ben Rimalower: Last Time I Saw Richard is the final track on that album, and River, A Case of You, My Old Man, All I Want.

[2:01] Daniel Nolen: California.

[2:02] Ben Rimalower: California. Um, I would say my favorite, my favorite Joni song and probably my favorite song of all time is A Case of You.

[2:13] Daniel Nolen: You're cool.

[2:20] Ben Rimalower: And so sweet little I think A Case of You and I would still be on my feet.

[2:33] Ben Rimalower: Or I would still be on my feet.

[2:43] Ben Rimalower: Uh of course I love this version she puts on the album, but it's just like Both Sides Now. Hearing her sing it as like a young sprite, and then hearing her sing it on her um standards album, Both Sides Now with the full orchestra is so different.

[3:00] Daniel Nolen: Interesting.

[3:03] Daniel Nolen: I've never heard that version.

[3:05] Ben Rimalower: I remember I have such a visceral memory of hearing that song for the first time because I was um a senior in high school and it coincided with my coming out.

[3:42] Daniel Nolen: So A Case of You.

[3:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. So I can remember driving in my silver PT Cruiser to high school, my senior year, and my mom had bought me the uh Joni Mitchell Standards album, Both Sides Now, because we had seen Emma Thompson listening to it on Love Actually, that movie.

[3:42] Ben Rimalower: Because there's a whole arc about her and you know, Alan Rickman, and she thinks it's jewelry, but it's a CD, and she loves Joni Mitchell.

[3:42] Ben Rimalower: So I was listening to that album a lot, and I can remember hearing A Case of You come on my car speakers on the way to school, and those lines just like hit me like a ton of bricks.

[3:53] Ben Rimalower: You know, you're in my blood like holy wine, you taste so bitter, you taste so sweet. I could drink a case of you and still be on my feet.

[4:03] Ben Rimalower: You're in my blood like holy wine.

[4:09] Ben Rimalower: And you taste so bitter.

[4:14] Ben Rimalower: I love A Case of You.

[4:18] Ben Rimalower: I could drink a case of you, still I'd be on my feet.

[4:26] Ben Rimalower: I'd still be on my feet.

[4:45] Daniel Nolen: So it was like, you know, so that's about him.

[4:48] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, that's how I was I was um that song really spoke to how I was feeling about the entire relationship and the entire, you know, drama surrounding it all.

[5:00] Daniel Nolen: So that was like my gateway, Joni Mitchell, and then I of course got into Blue and Court and Spark and you know, all the other ones, but as has been said before, wise beyond her years.

[5:12] Ben Rimalower: River is also another fabulous track.

[5:15] Daniel Nolen: I wish I had a river so long I would teach my feet to oh I wish I had a river I could skate away on.

[5:15] Ben Rimalower: Baby say goodbye, that's one of her like most famous songs.

[5:15] Daniel Nolen: Yes, and it's been covered a lot, especially on Christmas albums because it's, you know, it's coming on Christmas, they're cutting down trees, putting up reindeer, singing songs of joy and peace, so it's, you know, kind of Christmas adjacent.

[6:06] Ben Rimalower: River and A Case of You were both on Betty Buckley's third album with One Look, and so those are the versions I knew first of those and I really think of them like as Betty Buckley songs.

[6:06] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, the version I heard of Last Time I Saw Richard was Patty LuPone's version, but I still don't think of it as a Patty LuPone song, you know?

[6:19] Ben Rimalower: No one does.

[6:19] Daniel Nolen: Uh yeah, I love when Betty sings those songs.

[6:19] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, um and Judy obviously too. And I once um was interviewing Michelle Lee, um and she was getting ready to do her 54 Below show where she was singing like A Case of You and she said to me, you know, uh what's the lyric um uh you drew a map on the back of a cartoon coaster in the blue TV screen light I drew a map of Canada.

[6:19] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, wait go what comes right before that?

[6:19] Ben Rimalower: Just before our love got lost, she said, I'm as constant as the Northern Star.

[7:03] Daniel Nolen: And I said, constantly in the darkness.

[7:05] Ben Rimalower: Where's that at? If you want me, I'll be in the bar.

[7:08] Daniel Nolen: And I remember her telling me this like Looney Tunes explanation of that. Like she was like, you know, it can be a love song. It means, you know, or it means like, if you want me, I'll be in the bar.

[7:17] Ben Rimalower: She was kind of like, like the song is all like, see ya.

[7:21] Daniel Nolen: I was like, what if I don't think so.

[7:24] Ben Rimalower: Um made me appreciate Patty's version of Last Time I Saw Richard.

[7:24] Daniel Nolen: Oh, and k.d. lang does such a great version of A Case of You.

[7:31] Ben Rimalower: Mmm.

[7:32] Daniel Nolen: You don't like it.

[7:32] Ben Rimalower: I don't like k.d. lang's version of A Case of You, but I love k.d. lang.

[7:37] Daniel Nolen: Don't just should do a different Joni song that you do like.

[7:40] Ben Rimalower: I'm trying to think. Um I can't think of one that I off the top of my head, but I do know I was so excited for her A Case of You, and I think she just m she just kinda changes it up too much.

[8:09] Daniel Nolen: Okay, so A Case of You, you like the original version more than the original.

[8:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, just because hearing it with that voice is so, I mean, because when you hear it in Blue.

[8:09] Daniel Nolen: Because Both Sides Now, don't you prefer the original to the orchestral one?

[8:07] Ben Rimalower: No, I prefer the orchestral one too. Just because I mean hearing Joni sing A Case of You in Blue, it's so like first love, you know, exciting, like, oh, I could drink a case of you, like the buzz I get from drinking a glass of wine, it's exciting, it's thrilling, it's the first drink of the night.

[8:24] Daniel Nolen: But seventeen-year-old.

[8:25] Ben Rimalower: Seventeen-year-old identified more with uh like, you know, sixty-year-old Jane smoking three packs a day.

[8:33] Daniel Nolen: Um, absolutely.

[8:34] Ben Rimalower: That was my that's my inner truth. And you know, hearing it sung like that, it's like um weary, and I could drink a case of you and still be on my feet. It's like I put in the work, I know how to do this, I know how to make this my lifestyle, and it's sad, but it's very, very touching.

[8:53] Daniel Nolen: You know, however many years ago, Bob Dylan won the Nobel Prize for his lyrics, and I feel like Joni especially should win an award like that because she writes lyrics like nobody else.

[9:07] Ben Rimalower: She's lyric-driven.

[9:08] Ben Rimalower: That's the end for Joni. It's like she's always had a weird voice, whether it's high and you know, screechy or deep and smokey and sandpaper-y, it's all about the lyrics.

[9:19] Daniel Nolen: And well, I guess that's why I mean so many humans are drawn to it, because the lyrics are such a um tangible way into the story and songs, and it's why so many theater people and actors and it makes sense that that Judy Kuhn would choose this seminal Joni Mitchell album as something that was seminal for her.

[9:38] Ben Rimalower: As Emma Thompson says, in Love Actually, Joni Mitchell taught your cold English wife how to feel.

[9:45] Daniel Nolen: Judy Kuhn could kind of be like the musical theater answer to Emma Thompson.

[9:49] Ben Rimalower: Ooh, yeah.

[9:50] Daniel Nolen: Although Emma Thompson, although he has done musical theater, right.

[9:53] Ben Rimalower: My favorite thing about Judy Kuhn is that mix.

[9:58] Daniel Nolen: You know, we talk about the um the soprano who belts, blah blah blah. I one of my favorite things she's recorded is on her first album, her Julie Stein album.

[10:06] Ben Rimalower: She sings that old Julie Stein pop song from the old days, Time After Time, not the one, you know, not the Cyndi Lauper song.

[10:06] Daniel Nolen: Time After Time.

[10:15] Ben Rimalower: Exactly. And Judy Kuhn's version of that is my favorite.

[10:19] Ben Rimalower: And it's just like so mellow and rich, and she just keeps giving you like time after time.

[10:27] Daniel Nolen: You'll hear me say that uh.

[10:31] Ben Rimalower: And the way her voice just like bubbles out those notes. It's that it's like the ultimate mix.

[10:37] Daniel Nolen: It's almost like in the vibrato, she it's like she keeps churning up the earth into the sky.

[10:44] Ben Rimalower: Yes, honey.

[10:45] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[10:46] Ben Rimalower: The sky, if the sky is her is uh her soprano head voice, and the earth is like a chest belt voice that makes baby is just baby turning churning churning.

[11:11] Daniel Nolen: You kept my love so young so you hear me say that we love you.

[11:46] Ben Rimalower: And like um, I mean that whole album is so amazing, and like I think about um uh but I and I do feel like you know there's a lot of people that like quote unquote are sopranos who can belt.

[11:59] Daniel Nolen: Sure.

[11:59] Ben Rimalower: But first of all, she's a legitimate actually soprano. Like when you say she sings soprano, I don't just mean she's got a head voice. I mean she loves me, she's hitting that B flat Barbara Cook style Cosette at the end of Heartful of Love. Those are freaking above the staff legitimate operatic style soprano notes, you know.

[12:44] Daniel Nolen: But on top of that, she's a true belter.

[12:47] Ben Rimalower: I mean, when she sings, you know, um Nobody's Side in Chess, like we saw her do in Provincetown.

[12:55] Ben Rimalower: Um, she goes into that uh uh that Chess voice that's so shouty. I mean, it's really like while she is a full and maybe the best mix in history, or it's up there with Streisand or whoever, she also knows how to belt with no mix.

[13:12] Daniel Nolen: I mean, it might be supported and it might be placed correctly, but it is not placed in a way that's holding back.

[13:18] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[13:19] Ben Rimalower: She knows how to get the job done.

[13:21] Daniel Nolen: Yes, she does.

[13:22] Ben Rimalower: Um, did you did you see her in Fun Home?

[13:24] Daniel Nolen: I think that's your gen's June show.

[13:27] Daniel Nolen: I did, and I wish I would have seen it twice because I remember when I saw Fun Home, I don't know, it was one of those nights where I just don't remember it at all. You know, it's like I completely blacked out, I don't remember a thing. It wasn't until I was washing the blood off my hands. No, but I wish I would have seen it again because I, you know, I listened to the cast recording now and I'm like, wait, what was this? What was happening? What was going on? So, I think they are doing a movie, is that correct? They just—oh, I didn't know that. I think Jake Gyllenhaal's announced. I guess he'll play the dad. Well, honestly, I mean I'm sure they'll get like Meryl Streep or somebody, but it's too bad because actually, like I know in a weird universe, like I guess the good thing about getting older is like they might like try to star fuck all the young people.

But like I could see Jake being like, oh, you gotta have Judy Kuhn or Ellen Greene. Can you imagine? Just don't fuck Ellen Greene. How would she sing Days and Days and be like, uh, uh, Days and then do it? I mean she has that crazy like, uh, uh, I'd rather hear her do Ring of Keys.

[14:32] Ben Rimalower: Oh, so yeah, she's got her own version of a mix. I mean I just like to meet like Judy Kuhn, like I mean you're not like really so much of a chess person, huh? I love this sweatshirt by the way. It's like a rhinestone New York Broadway shirt, t-shirt bought from 447. My friends, Maddie and Tom got it for me for my 40th birthday. I'm sure they bought it in a Times Square gift shop on exactly what it is, yeah. But that's why I'm gonna start having all my parties in Times Square, because then we can get you extra. Where would you have a shop like Sardis or would you have it at like, um, I've already turned 40, this is in the past. Well, your next birthday, your next birthday. Carnegie Hall. But uh, but chess, I was gonna say, um, I mean, like for me growing up in like the height of like the pop opera era when those things were still like current, when like, you know, Sunset Boulevard was like Angela Lansbury's next musical. Speaking of Sunset Boulevard, another show I saw Judy Kuhn in. Because she did it in LA as Betty Schaefer and she's on the album.

[15:31] Daniel Nolen: Oh, right, yes. Although I was really bummed because I was watching her in Sunset Boulevard knowing that it was keeping her from She Loves Me, which I'd seen her do at the Roundabout's former Broadway home that's no longer there in the Criterion Center. But then when I went back to see it when it transferred to a commercial run on Broadway, Judy was in Sunset, Diane Frat and Tony had done it, and that by then Diane Frat and Tony was then the one on the cast album. But the good news is there's an amazing YouTube video of Judy doing Vanilla Ice Cream and really good picture and sound quality, and it's as magical as I remember it. Somehow it reminds me of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

[16:54] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it's like it's so amazing for ABBA because their music is so belty and so melodic and soaring, you know. And they really, the score of Chess is so sorry. I mean, some of it is almost has a classical bent to it. Those were big duets that are so like string heavy, you know. I can't imagine a time when I won't care. But here we are too, and it's over me and tell me when we die.

[18:12] Daniel Nolen: And what's a good, what's a good, um, besides Nobody's Side, what's another good Judy track? Oh, Someone Else's Story. I mean, that is the definitive, maybe even more than any other song she's ever done. I could be in someone else's story, in someone else's eye, and he could be in my reason to be lonely. I could take my chances better down the line. That's her song, and it was she originated because it wasn't in the original version, so Paige hadn't sung it. And Judy's version remains the gold standard. I mean, don't talk to me about, you know, Sutton or Dina or freaking, you know, whoever. And it's exactly the reasons we're talking though, because it's so effortless and healthy and beautiful and natural and simple and heartfelt, and then like when you least see it coming, she's just like, it just explodes, you know.

[19:23] Ben Rimalower: I think you tweeted something after we saw her in P-Town. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was to the effect of like seeing Judy Kuhn, I'm reminded what good singing is, you know.

[19:36] Daniel Nolen: So true. I mean, I all I feel like I honestly, I mean, you know, people often compare me to Patti LuPone. I mean, unfavorably, but they say that they hear like the Patti LuPone influence in my like attempts to sing, you know? But I, and I know that's true. Like, but like Patti is like the devil on my shoulder, and Bernadette is more like how I cope with my limitations, but, um, which are many. But, uh, but Judy is the angel on my shoulder. Like I feel like the way Judy's vowels are, like, they're just such like a roadmap of like a way to sing that's like in harmony with like nature and like art.

[20:16] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, well, you know, it's like what's that thing like synesthesia when you like hear color and you see stuff. It's like when I hear Judy sing, it's almost like I picture her voice as like a solid object like moving through time and space and like infiltrating my soul. You know, it's like, um, like when Barbra says, oh, it's like butter, it's like that, but it's completely like we don't have a language for it. It's like I'm like when you're talking about like meditation or doing yoga, it's like you connect with like another realm, and like that's what Judy's voice does.

[20:49] Daniel Nolen: I get that. There's something about her breath, it's so expansive. And I think it's maybe what I was trying to say about like in terms of the quote unquote like healthiness about her voice, is that like it's not only that it's expansive breath, but it's expansive breath that just continues. There's something oceanic about Judy's oceanic breathing and, and, and in a song, and um, uh, how are you do you you're like a big Laura Nyro queen, right?

[21:15] Ben Rimalower: Yes, for sure. So I mean, is that like a big deal for you? Like the Judy and Laura Nyro album and everything.

[21:20] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I love that album. I listen to it all the time. Um, it's so funny because I'm such a like a musical theater nerd that I knew the Judy versions of those songs before I had to look at. And the Laura ones.

[21:29] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[21:30] Daniel Nolen: The Laura ones. But like, so I remember always thinking that, oh, like I'm so happy that Judy um made transposed these all up so she could show off her soprano voice. Cause I was, she sings more belter roles now because just that's what's like in vogue in musical theater. And then when I actually listened to Laura Nyro, I was like, oh, Laura Nyro, bitch had a head voice. Like I did not expect her to be so like creamy.

[21:50] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[21:54] Daniel Nolen: Not quite as pleasant as Judy's, and but she used that um to great effect, you know, whether it was on certain tracks like Tom Cat Goodbye, where she really screeches, or you know, Wedding Bell Blues is one of her most famous.

[22:07] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I love his songs so much.

[22:08] Daniel Nolen: Which um, oh god, it's just like ear candy, you know, it's like dun dun. Always clear I look at you and see the passion.

[22:35] Ben Rimalower: I'm a man day. And that's the thing I love about Judy is that she's so smart and so um cool.

[22:53] Daniel Nolen: Cool, yeah. Cool. I mean, the other thing though is like I always like Judy became like a Broadway fixture so immediately. I mean, she went from her debut in The Mystery of Edwin Drood. The next season she did Rags and Um Les Mis in the same season. That's the famous story about her performing both those things at the Tony Awards that thing.

[23:13] Ben Rimalower: Right, yes. And um, but so that was right away. So she didn't um have those years and years of doing like Things and Days. You know, so her summer stock career was extremely short-lived. That said, I do know that she played uh Eliza in My Fair Lady, sure, and Julie in um Carousel.

[23:34] Daniel Nolen: Oh, wonderful.

[23:35] Ben Rimalower: And Maria in West Side Story, and I believe all of like one season of Summer Stock. And I always, I mean, there is an amazing video on YouTube from like a performance at the White House from the 80s of Judy and Larry Kurt, the original Tony in West Side Story singing Tonight. And it's like beautiful as you would imagine.

[23:53] Daniel Nolen: I have to see that.

[23:53] Ben Rimalower: Um, but I always wish that like we'd gotten to like, you know, to see her do that. I mean, we did get She Loves Me, you know, which is major, but um, I wouldn't have minded like Judy Kuhn doing a few more of those kind of things. Um but um, uh, but we did get to have her in Passion. She's done now several productions.

[24:11] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, and those songs are beautiful for her as well.

[24:13] Ben Rimalower: Totally. Although it's funny, I mean, I always would have thought, you know, I have very specific feelings about that one role in Passion, because it was a Marin Mazzie part of Clara. And like Marin's voice is so specific, and there's not many people I would want to hear sing the Marin Mazzie track because it's that rich mixy, like mezzo-y, almost almost belty, sort of Audra McDonald. Um and Judy Kuhn is on a short list of who I would have ever wanted to hear sing Marin's part in Passion. Then when she did it, instead she was Fosca. But of course, I mean she sings Fosca, you know, maybe better than it's ever been sung.

[24:55] Daniel Nolen: Loving you is divine.

[24:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I mean, and I wish I could forget you. I mean, just when she goes into those, you know, like, now I'm seeing love. Minus my Patti LuPone's like, you know, uh, but it just like opens up and um into that like the darker, more chocolatey kind of, you know, yes.

[25:16] Daniel Nolen: I know that I've upset you.

[25:22] Ben Rimalower: I know I've been unkind.

[25:27] Daniel Nolen: I wanted you to vanish from sight, but now I see you in a different light.

[25:37] Ben Rimalower: And though I cannot love you.

[25:43] Daniel Nolen: I wish that I could love you.

[25:49] Ben Rimalower: For nine sing I've ever known.

[25:59] Daniel Nolen: But what she proved in that show was the acting. I mean, that like, you know, she's not just an ingenue. I mean, and um, but anyway, I'm just so obsessed with her and all her albums. I mean, and the Richard Rodgers stuff, Mary Gettle, Mary Rodgers, Adam Gettle, you know.

[26:15] Ben Rimalower: I love it. Well, I can't wait to talk to her.

[26:17] Daniel Nolen: I know. Um, what do you think's gonna be like in front of the audience?

[26:20] Ben Rimalower: Um, I think it'll be great. I think um, like we've never done that. I'm interested to see what age group this audience is, because I feel like our target market is really like all men and women over the age of 60. But you know, I feel like BroadwayCon is such young kids. Um, but maybe not, you know. I just hope they get our references. I mean the good news is it's short. The good news is it's um 30 minutes, and everyone knows Judy Kuhn. Everyone loves Fun Home, everyone's seen um, I mean if anything, everyone knows Pocahontas, the famous, you know, Disney film that she voiced, the singing voice for.

[27:23] Ben Rimalower: Alright, then, so I have some Dolly concert kills. DCK submitted from our listeners.

[27:30] Daniel Nolen: Okay, our next submission is from our friend of the pod, Jason Wise. And his three are Shirley Temple, Florence Henderson, and again, Diana Ross.

[27:41] Ben Rimalower: Classic.

[27:42] Daniel Nolen: Shirley, Flo, and Diana. Um, I would see Flo as Dolly. I would see Diana in concert, and I would kill Shirley Temple.

[27:55] Ben Rimalower: I think I would see Diana as Dolly. I would see Florence Henderson in like A Night With. And I'd rather see her as Dolly. And I, of course, would kill Shirley. Sorry, Cheryl.

[28:09] Daniel Nolen: Okay, so next from Sam Durban, Dolly Concert Kill. This is, um, last time he did 80s divas. This time is 90s divas.

[28:19] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[28:20] Daniel Nolen: So we have Celine Dion, Vanessa Williams, and Paula Abdul.

[28:25] Ben Rimalower: Celine, Vanessa, and Paula. Okay. Um, wow. So I mean, my first instinct is to put Vanessa and Dolly because I know she can act. And I just honestly don't know that about Celine and Paula. However, I'm attracted to having Paula and Dolly just because she's such a hot mess. I think it'd be fun. But still, I think I would put Vanessa and Dolly, see Celine in concert, and kill Paula.

[28:58] Daniel Nolen: Okay. I would definitely have to see Celine as Dolly, just because her crazy line readings. And then she'd be like, uh. Uh, it's a little lumpy, but it rings. With the gestures. Um, and then I would see Paula in concert because she is, you know, just so energetic. And then I'd have, sorry, Vanessa, I'd have to kill you.

[29:24] Ben Rimalower: How rude.

[29:25] Daniel Nolen: Okay, and our last submission for the week. Oh god. Is from Friend of the Pod, Matt Gardner. Classic. And his are, this is so Matt. David Byrne, Tom York of Radiohead, and Daniel Nolen.

[29:40] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[29:42] Daniel Nolen: Better be careful. Um, I would definitely have those people see Daniel Nolen as Dolly.

[29:47] Ben Rimalower: Thank you.

[29:48] Daniel Nolen: David Byrne in concert and kill Tom York.

[29:52] Ben Rimalower: I would see myself as Dolly as well.

[29:55] Daniel Nolen: And do every day in my mind.

[29:58] Ben Rimalower: I'm sure you do.

[29:59] Daniel Nolen: And I would see Tom York in concert because seeing Radiohead live at Lollapalooza a couple years ago was magnificent. And I would kill David Byrne.

[30:09] Ben Rimalower: Con. Hey everybody, welcome to Broadway Con 2020. We, um, so you know, we're nearing the end of the, uh, uh, con at the con, end of the con. Is that what you say? End of the con?

[30:27] Daniel Nolen: Sure, end of the con.

[30:29] Ben Rimalower: Is that what, would you say end of the con?

[30:31] Daniel Nolen: End of the con.

[30:31] Ben Rimalower: We're ending the con. This, oh my god, that's pretty good, right? End of the con. Um, so I don't know these guys from freaking Adam, but I absolutely adore them.

[30:40] Daniel Nolen: Um, very kind, thank you.

[30:41] Ben Rimalower: No, no, you have no idea. Somewhere sperm crossed, and we like, you know, from the same place. Um, go ahead and read it as much as you want to.

[30:49] Daniel Nolen: Um, Madeline Kahn. I mean, give me a regular these shirts. So, I mean, come on, look at this. Show it off, show it off.

[30:54] Ben Rimalower: Broadway con. Come on, no, come on, that's amazing. I'm gonna run after them and throw confetti because of this. So, um, Broadway World. This is the shared site, if I'm correct about that, right?

[31:08] Daniel Nolen: First produced.

[31:09] Ben Rimalower: And then the name of it is just so fabulous. Uh, uh, Ben Rimalower's, of course, Broken Records, the albums you wouldn't shut up about. Oh my god, it's just the attitude inherited in that is just gorgeous. It could be all about my mother. You know, because we know from personal we are the people that wouldn't shut up and continue to not shut up.

[31:26] Daniel Nolen: Yes, as I think many of the fans here today at Broadway Con would also be.

[31:31] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, we came out of our mother like, oh, nice room, and we kept talking and talking and talking, singing.

[31:36] Daniel Nolen: And singing.

[31:37] Ben Rimalower: Um, they're gonna introduce their guest who is an absolutely extraordinary individual who I was astounded by during a show that I saw. And I could go on and on, but I won't because I'll let them go ahead and set the stage for this a truly magnificent individual that we were all so fortunate to be graced with. Really astounding. So go ahead, gentlemen.

[31:55] Daniel Nolen: Thank you.

[31:58] Ben Rimalower: Well, I'm Ben Rimalower of the podcast name, and here's my co-host Daniel Nolen.

[32:03] Daniel Nolen: Hey y'all.

[32:03] Ben Rimalower: And um, we are, uh, our podcast, we talked to guests about the album they wouldn't shut up about. And in this case, today we're gonna be talking about the, uh, seminal Joni Mitchell album Blue from 1971. And um, of course, for that, uh, discussing that voice of a generation, we're gonna be talking with, uh, the voice of another generation, which talking about Broadway obsessed fans not shutting up and not stopping singing. I mean, part of the problem in my house was always that I, you know, I wanted to sing like this person, and of course, no one does because it's truly a singular voice, and uh, she's a singular artist as an actress as well, and has been, uh, an inspiration to us for so many years and so many shows, and uh, of course she's got four Tony nominations, and she is Broadway royalty, and we're so honored to have her here today. Please welcome to the stage Judy Kuhn.

[32:58] Judy Kuhn: Yes, thank you.

[33:07] Judy Kuhn: Wow, what nice introductions. I am, yes, thank you. How is it that I was a little kid and I would look at pictures of you on cast albums, and you look exactly the same now, and I'm a little man with a gray beard.

[33:22] Ben Rimalower: Um, you're very kind, and uh, I I I can't, I I look at pictures of myself from when you were probably looking at those pictures, and I think, oh my god, I look so young, and how did I get so old?

[33:37] Daniel Nolen: Well, well, we all get old, whether, whether like Judy, we don't show it or not. And the other thing that doesn't show it is your voice. I mean, it's just, you know, it's so exciting to hear. It was always exciting because it was, uh, uh, is a beautiful operatically trained soprano voice. And that's rare in itself in Broadway, especially in the 80s, you know, except for Cosette in Les Misérables, hello, original Broadway cast made, and you know, Christine in Phantom, uh, not as much the vogue, but also the number one thrilling belt voice of Broadway in the 80s. I mean, Chess is not like a crossover sort of belter. It's a, I mean, it was Elaine Paige's big thing, and, and you are the definitive Florence in Chess.

[34:24] Judy Kuhn: Uh, well, thank you. Um, yeah, no, I was classically trained, and I can remember the first time when I got out of college, and I thought, oh, I'm Oberlin Conservatory of Music, which is classical operatic singing, right? Not Broadway Belt. Yes, but I knew I wasn't gonna be a classical singer. I mean, I thought if I'm gonna be a performer, I'm gonna do theater because that's what I loved. And but I was very grateful for the training that I got there. Um, but I remember doing, um, Summerstock before I moved to New York, and this wonderful music director looking at me. We were, he was teaching me something in the basement of the house that we were all staying in, and he looked at me and said, Do you think you could belt that note?

And I said, Well, what do you mean? And I didn't, I had no idea what he meant. Literally. And he, I can't even remember what language he used to explain to me what he meant. But I sort of tried it and he went, Yes, that's it. And I was like, Oh, that's a voice that I've never heard come out of me. And it was sort of an interesting. And then I eventually, when I came to New York and did a lot of different things, I found a teacher who really helped me to understand that I didn't have two voices. Because then I thought, oh, I have two voices. I have my soprano voice and I have my belt voice. And he really helped me understand. No, I have one voice, and I can choose what colors the music demands.

[35:58] Ben Rimalower: Colors of the Wind.

[36:00] Judy Kuhn: And we, uh, speaking of your glorious belt. But one thing Daniel and I were talking about the other day about your voice is how in the, even in the strongest, most just, you know, balls to the wall belt resonances of it, it always sounds so healthy, so supported, like you're just opening the dam and letting something flow.

[36:24] Daniel Nolen: Oceanic was the word that we use.

[36:26] Judy Kuhn: Oceanic, you know, oceanic.

[36:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it does, it's, well, that's a new one on me.

[36:30] Judy Kuhn: Well, you know, speaking of, um, you know, uh, when I, I guess it was your second Tony nomination, uh, uh, for Chess in 1988, someone who was a leading lady on Broadway that season who was not nominated for a Tony. I'm thinking about in comparison Bernadette Peters, who you know, we, you can see the gears shifting, and you know, I mean it's part of what makes it dramatic sometimes, you know. But I think of it as the polar opposite with you, where it's just like it feels like your body is in harmony, you know, and how it's letting it happen. Did you, was that harder to achieve compared to classical singing that's all breath and everything?

[37:08] Judy Kuhn: Well, no, but because I, I mean that's the thing that I think my training has taught me is that it is all the same. And you should, anything that feels like you're muscling is actually not healthy, and you shouldn't be doing that. And you have to find the way to healthy singing. And whatever it is that you're doing, you have to understand it all needs to be supported with breath, and it all needs to be attached to language, and it all, you know, it should never feel or look effortful.

[37:42] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, well, and that's just training.

[37:43] Judy Kuhn: That's the same thing. Everybody should write that down in big letters in their, uh, book. And I think that's one reason why voices stayed healthy, because I have really tried not to sing in a way that, you know, if it feels really hard and like I'm pushing and muscling, then it's not healthy and I should stop.

[38:04] Daniel Nolen: Wait, can you, is there an example maybe of a time when you were like, oh, this could be bad. I need to rethink how I'm approaching this song or this section or whatever.

[38:14] Judy Kuhn: If it's, if it feels that way, I go running up to my voice teacher and say, help.

[38:19] Daniel Nolen: Is it that same person that you, and what, what's their name?

[38:21] Judy Kuhn: His name's Bruce Kolb.

[38:23] Daniel Nolen: Do you still regularly take lessons and vocalize and warm up and stuff like that?

[38:27] Judy Kuhn: I don't, but I actually have the show.

[38:29] Daniel Nolen: It seems like you're healthy should, yeah.

[38:31] Judy Kuhn: Now, so just, yeah, I should, but I get that, you know, when I don't need to be singing all the time, then I tend to get a little lazy.

[38:41] Daniel Nolen: She's gotta take the, uh, compost down to the farmer's market on Saturday, doesn't have time for voice.

[38:47] Judy Kuhn: Isn't that the truth?

[38:48] Ben Rimalower: Judy's a wonderful citizen as well.

[38:50] Judy Kuhn: Yes.

[38:51] Ben Rimalower: I tried to be. Now, so okay, when before you were this, um, Oberlin graduate who somehow didn't even know what the word belting meant. Obviously, I mean we can understand that thinking of Joni Mitchell as an influence on you because she's, I guess, not so rare for the singer-songwriter or Laurel Canyon era, but as a, you know, popular singer, it's weird what more of a soprano type voice she has. I mean, you think of pop singers as being all belters.

[39:18] Judy Kuhn: Well, I, you know, you said in your intro about listening and wanting to sound like that person. Joni Mitchell's was the person that I wanted to sound like.

[39:27] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[39:27] Judy Kuhn: And, uh, that's when I was a teenager and I listened to her obsessively, um, I tried to imitate her, and that's how I found this head voice that ultimately became a more trained soprano voice. Um, because I just wanted to sing those songs.

[39:45] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, just.

[39:45] Judy Kuhn: And in order to do it, I had to sound like her.

[39:50] Daniel Nolen: Now, I mean, I looked you up. I know you were pretty young when Blue came out, and so you won't talk about exactly but how you were certainly young for the, uh, the darkness of the themes of those songs.

[40:03] Judy Kuhn: You know, it's so interesting that you say that because I inspired by this, um, meeting, yeah. I listened to the whole, I just sat down and listened to the whole album from beginning to end yesterday. Something, you know, who does that anymore?

[40:21] Judy Kuhn: It's like you listen to you have playlists and of course in those days, which was the heyday of the singer-songwriter, you know, Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan and Carole King and Laura Nyro, all those amazing artists who were poets who wrote songs. Yeah, um, you would that's what you would do. You'd sit down, you'd listen to the whole thing, and you'd think about the tunes and you'd think about what they were saying, and I did that yesterday, and I thought, wow, I, you know, I listening to it now at this point in my life, I hear and see things in it that of course I couldn't get when I was a teenager, however old I was. Um, and yet I realized instinctually, even though I didn't really understand it all, I understood in this kind of primitive way, all the darkness and the yearnings and the kind of wildness of the things she was talking about.

I mean, Joni Mitchell wrote a lot about being wild and the consequences of that. You know, I mean, I didn't know it at the time, but "Little Green" is about this child that she gave up for adoption. And I didn't know that then, but you listen to it now and you go, wow. And you know, lyrics like, you know, I don't know, "He loved me so naughty made me weak in the knees." You kind of know as a teenager, ooh, that's something that sounds exciting. Don't really know what it means, but you know, it's there was something kind of thrilling about that when you're young. The honesty of it. Yes, so so honest and there's something really raw about it. And her singing is so beautiful. Everything about, I mean, it is one of those recordings that, and I was kind of blown away by this listening to it yesterday.

It's like there isn't a single song on this recording that you would go, oh, I want to skip like that you just routinely skip. Like they don't like that song. Yeah. Every single one is a masterpiece of, you know, musicianship, storytelling, everything. It's really perfect. There isn't a lyric you go, uh, that's not such a and it takes you on the whole journey throughout the whole album. Totally. I mean, it really is just, and that's why I think, you know, when you said what album are you going to choose? I was like, that was the first thing that popped into my head because I just thought it's so brilliant, and it had such meaning for me that I didn't even know. I really didn't understand when I was that age, both as a just a human and as someone who dreamed about being a performer.

[43:18] Ben Rimalower: And so was that what you were thinking when you were listening to that record that, you know, I want to be a Broadway singer or I want to write songs like Joni, or what was your dreaming?

[43:31] Judy Kuhn: You know, I never thought about writing songs. People have asked me that all the time, whether I write songs. I now actually have a child who writes songs. She's 25 and that's what she wants to do is be a singer-songwriter. And I'm very, I'm always in awe of people who write things. My husband is a writer too. So, but I've never, it's never been my interest. Maybe I should try it, but it just isn't what draws me. I feel like I'm an interpreter.

[44:01] Ben Rimalower: Well, that's an important thing. And you know, I mean, I'm sure if you wrote a song it would probably be exquisite. But like we went to see a, I don't know about a performer the other night who's a wonderful singer-songwriter and he did a lot of covers and his voice is amazing, but there is a specific thing that's the skill of interpreting a song and it doesn't work the same when it's not his own stuff, you know, and I don't think people necessarily give enough credence to what that is.

[44:36] Judy Kuhn: Right, no, that's true. I mean, it is a whole other kind of craft.

[44:41] Ben Rimalower: And is that what you always had wanted to do?

[44:44] Judy Kuhn: Yeah, oh, I mean I've always been interested in storytelling whether it's through a song or through a piece of theater or whatever it is. I just love having stories told to me and I feel like it's a gift to be able to participate in storytelling. And I think it's why I've always been, um, it's funny because I never thought about being on Broadway when I was a kid. I didn't think about, I thought I just thought of when I decided, okay, I'm gonna go to New York and I'm gonna see if I can have a life in the theater, I didn't think about Broadway or off-Broadway or even musicals or non-musicals. I just thought about I want to be a, you know, part of that world that tells stories in that way.

[45:33] Judy Kuhn: And I feel the same way about singing, just, you know, singing songs. And when I was a young soprano at Oberlin, the Oberlin Conservatory, singing Schubert or whatever it was, I didn't think about what sound I wanted to make. I thought about what is the text. I would spend hours in the library translating text, thinking about what the poet meant, why did the composer set that poetry in that way? What did that make, then how did that transform it? And how can then through me and my performing communicate that? And that was what always interested me.

[46:16] Ben Rimalower: Was that something that, you know, it goes against what my assumption would be about a classical training conservatory? Did they encourage you to do that? Or was that just a Judy Kuhn, like, you know?

[46:24] Judy Kuhn: Well, I wound up studying. I had a kind of crazy journey at Oberlin because when I went, I was in the college, not in the conservatory, and I'd switched in my sophomore year, and then I had a teacher I wasn't so happy with, and I don't know where I was such a shy and frightened young person. And I went and I somehow got the courage to go knock on the door of the kind of the teacher that everyone wanted to study with. His name was Richard Miller, he's one of the great voice teachers of all time, I think. And I knocked on his door and I said, I want to study with you. And eventually we went through this process, and he took me into his studio, and I knew I wasn't the best voice in his studio. I mean, there were people who had these huge operatic voices, and I never had that.

But he liked me, I think, because of my interest in language because he always taught with about the connection with language. And I can remember one time we were working on something, and he stopped and he looked at me and he kind of smiled, and he said, "You hear a lot of great voices in this conservatory, don't you?" And I said, "Oh yeah." He said, "But you don't hear a lot of music." And I thought, oh, I think that he means I'm making music right now. He didn't come out and say that, but I felt like that was what he was saying. And I thought, wow, that is true. That's what, you know, I don't know. That's to me what it's about.

[48:09] Ben Rimalower: Totally. I mean, I think about that sometimes, but and I think maybe Broadway it doesn't encourage that enough. I mean, or you know, or just out of necessity, that's not the focus. But it is striking when you hear someone who is a musician as a singer, and there is kind of a difference in what the art can do with that.

[48:31] Judy Kuhn: But I'm curious when you talk about wanting to have come to New York before you got to Oberlin, and you grew up in Maryland, is that right?

[48:39] Judy Kuhn: I grew up in a Washington DC suburb.

[48:42] Ben Rimalower: Ah, okay. And did you come into the city sometimes? What was your understanding of New York?

[48:49] Judy Kuhn: Well, my parents were both born and raised in New York, and my grandparents lived in New York, so we came to New York a lot. And then when I was, how old was I? Ten, eleven, twelve, something. Anyway, we lived in New York for a year because my father had a job up here, and that was the first time they took me to Broadway shows.

[49:15] Ben Rimalower: What did you see?

[49:16] Judy Kuhn: I saw, let's see, what did we see? We saw "Fiddler on the Roof." We saw "Man of La Mancha." We saw "You're a Good Man Charlie Brown." Those are the ones I remember.

[49:31] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. And you wound up recently had a wonderful run of "Fiddler on the Roof" in London. And you did it on Broadway as well.

[49:37] Judy Kuhn: Wonderful Golda. So funny, this Jewish soprano took me until like just the last few years to ever do a production of "Fiddler on the Roof." I never played any of those daughters.

[49:50] Ben Rimalower: I can't believe it. I was literally thinking of asking you which daughter in "Fiddler" did you play?

[49:55] Judy Kuhn: I know. It's like I somehow it managed to miss me every time. And now you've been a two-time Golda.

[50:03] Ben Rimalower: And now I've been a two-time Golda. Is that different doing "Fiddler"?

[50:07] Judy Kuhn: I mean, I know this show is such an international landmark on the show. I think it's one of the most produced shows anywhere in the world. I mean, it's done everywhere.

[50:16] Ben Rimalower: That's right.

[50:19] Judy Kuhn: Apparently it's the most popular show in Japan.

[50:23] Ben Rimalower: Seriously.

[50:24] Judy Kuhn: Well, that I mean, just because it's a show about traditions and cultural traditions and family, and just very, so I think Sheldon Harnick maybe told a story of going over there maybe when they did the first production in Japan, and somebody said to him, a Japanese person said to him, "Do people understand this show in America?"

[50:49] Ben Rimalower: I love it.

[50:50] Judy Kuhn: Well, okay, I know so you didn't do "Fiddler," which I'm just so just shocked to learn. Um, but I remember reading that you had done one summer of Summerstock where you were Maria in "West Side Story," Julie Jordan in "Carousel," and Eliza in "My Fair Lady" all in one.

[51:06] Judy Kuhn: No, I wasn't Eliza in "My Fair Lady."

[51:07] Ben Rimalower: Oh no, what was the third one?

[51:09] Judy Kuhn: Oh my god, I can't even blame you. Where did you find that in the world?

[51:13] Judy Kuhn: I don't think I've been walking around with that factoid for over 20 years, I want you to know.

[51:18] Judy Kuhn: It was probably like a lot of things. So I did two summers of Summerstock at two different places, and I get them mixed up and I can't remember which was which. I did, yes, I did Julie Jordan, I did Maria, I did Tup Tim.

[51:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, different times.

[51:38] Judy Kuhn: And I did, what else did I do? I played Emma Goldman in "Tin Types."

[51:45] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[51:45] Judy Kuhn: That was the song "Jonah Man." That was the song that the music director looked at me and said, "Could you belt that?" And then when I came to New York, and they, you know, and I went around in the open calls and they wanted an up tempo and a ballad, I sang "Jonah Man" as my kind of belt-y song.

[52:05] Ben Rimalower: That's how you got "Mystery of Edwin Drood."

[52:08] Judy Kuhn: It might have been. I mean, that's the other, the other like crazy like soprano belter dichotomy of Judy Kuhn, or one of the others, was that in "Drood," you were not only Patty Cohen's understudy, you were Betty Buckley's understudy.

[52:21] Judy Kuhn: Yes, I mean yes, and when you know, um, Betty is much taller than me. And so when I went on for her, and I'm a small person, and I put on that suit and the boys wig, I looked 12. And I did not look like a young man at all. And apparently I learned this later that our dear departed George Rose used to say when I went on for Betty, "Oh, there's the Bar Mitzvah boy."

[52:59] Ben Rimalower: Oh, that's hilarious.

[53:01] Judy Kuhn: Well, it was around the time of "Yentl," so you know it would have worked as well.

[53:06] Ben Rimalower: So that was your debut.

[53:08] Judy Kuhn: That was my Broadway debut, yes.

[53:11] Ben Rimalower: And you were going to open calls, but not for very long because you finished school in the early 80s, so, God, I, you're, I, I'm just too old to remember the time.

[53:25] Judy Kuhn: Well, here's the better way to question it.

[53:26] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[53:27] Judy Kuhn: I did, that was maybe the last open call I went to. And I did, it was an open call. I went through several auditions and finally wound up in front of, you know, Wilford Leach and Joe Papp and this whole like, whoa, all these people.

[53:48] Judy Kuhn: And I I guess I I did have my equity card at that point, but maybe oh no, no, I had had it maybe for a year because I'd gone on a national tour.

[53:58] Ben Rimalower: Well, what national tour did you do?

[54:00] Judy Kuhn: The King and I.

[54:01] Ben Rimalower: Wow, oh, with Yul Brynner?

[54:03] Judy Kuhn: Yeah.

[54:04] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god. Wait, so was the chocolate...

[54:07] Judy Kuhn: This is like the bitter end.

[54:09] Ben Rimalower: Wait, so can you tell us? Was the chocolate dressing room, chocolate covered dressing room a true story?

[54:14] Judy Kuhn: You'll get it. Absolutely true.

[54:16] Ben Rimalower: Wow. Oh my god. There was a truck that went ahead that had all his dressing room accoutrement furniture, everything. They had a crew that went ahead to the city ahead, painted the room, knocked down walls if he wanted that, you know, like did the whole thing, and then there was a truck that went ahead and furnished it so that when he arrived the king's quarters were complete.

[54:42] Judy Kuhn: Fabulous.

[54:44] Ben Rimalower: So okay, what was that like for you? Because you're now still very young and you're in this like real like show business, like I mean, on the road, it's not the first revival of The King and I. It's not even the third, or I mean, you know, there's a lot of like reality in that, and it's the opposite of maybe in some ways Joni Mitchell, right? So what were those things like in your you know, did did...

[55:09] Judy Kuhn: Oh god, oh my God. No, yeah, The King and I, it was like this little village, and I I no one paid attention to me. And Mary Beth Peel, who I adore, was Mrs. Anna, and we became friends, and she kind of got that I had something going on. I because I was in the ensemble and I was the Tup Tim understudy. There's another story about how I got this job that relates to the Summerstock Tup Tim.

[55:37] Judy Kuhn: Oh, okay. But um, anyway, and I was just uh uh I was a replacement for five months on the road, and um I never went on. I had I did one put in rehearsal because the woman playing Tup Tim wasn't feeling well or something, and so they gave her the afternoon off, so I did that, but nobody paid any attention to me. And then we did a like a cabaret like thing. It was I was about to leave the show, and there was some, I don't know, someone organized like a talent night in some club in the city we were in, and people got up and sang, and I got up and sang a Joni Mitchell song, probably from the blue album. I can't remember which one it was.

[56:20] Judy Kuhn: And Mary Beth told me later on that Yul Brynner had who she had been sitting with that night turned to her and went, "Now that's a tough Tim." And she said, "Yeah, like that's what I've been telling you. No, you haven't paid any attention to her. Now she's leaving."

[56:36] Ben Rimalower: What a compliment.

[56:38] Judy Kuhn: Well, so I'm curious then because I I you you started that maybe parallel kind of cabaret wing, as far as my awareness of it, with like um the incredible uh Julie Stein album that you recorded in the 90s. But you'd been on Broadway for what, 10 years-ish at that point. Had you been had you done cabaret?

[57:00] Judy Kuhn: I was that's why I was wondering about Joni Mitchell. Was that something that you started to itch to move a little closer into that?

[57:06] Judy Kuhn: No, I never I I was as I said, I was a scared person then, and I didn't like the idea of standing up in front of an audience and just being me.

[57:16] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[57:17] Judy Kuhn: So no, and I never performed that Julie Stein album. Some the producer of that asked me to do a solo album. No one had ever asked me, or it never occurred to me that to do a solo album. And I think it might have even been his idea to do Julie Stein. And I was out in um Los Angeles doing Sunset Boulevard at that time, so I recorded it out there, and um it was thrilling to to make it, and um it was just really fun, but it never occurred to me to get up on stage and perform the songs, and then much later people had were saying to me for a long time, you gotta do a solo show. And I was like, ah, and then um it was right when the Lincoln Center um American songbook series was just starting.

[58:05] Judy Kuhn: Yeah, and then they decided, you know, it used to be kind of songbook concerts with the uh the little orchestra and a whole group of people, and I think I had done one of those, and then they started doing solo evenings in the Kaplan Penthouse before the jazz at Lincoln Center was built, and they asked me if I would do a solo show, and I remember my manager at the time said, "You have to say yes, because you will never do this if you don't have a time and a place that you have to show up and do it."

[58:36] Ben Rimalower: So true.

[58:37] Judy Kuhn: So I said, "Okay," and then all of a sudden I had to do it. And that was the Laura Nyro show.

[58:42] Ben Rimalower: No, no, no, no, no. That was later because that I did at the Jazz at Lincoln Center.

[58:46] Judy Kuhn: Oh, okay. But no, and I did this thing, which actually God, we really I there's a theme. That particular show, which I didn't record, but I wound up doing a lot. Oh, I'm gonna find a recording now that I know it happened. It opened and closed with a Joni Mitchell song.

[59:02] Ben Rimalower: Oh, and what were they? Which one?

[59:04] Judy Kuhn: The first song was "All I Want," and the last one was um what was it? I can't remember. Oh, no, no, no, it didn't close with a with a Joni Mitchell song. There was another one in the middle, uh um "Let the Wind Carry Me."

[59:21] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[59:22] Judy Kuhn: Yeah. And was the whole show in that vibe?

[59:24] Ben Rimalower: No, it was all over the place. I mean, it was there was Joni Mitchell and there was some uh Tom Waits in there, and there was yeah, another one of my songwriting heroes. Um, but there was also Rogers and Hart and Adam Gettle. I mean, there was all there were all different writers. It really was I was um a friend of mine who's sort of helping me at the time said just write make a list of songs you want to sing and I just started making lists and lists and lists and I started seeing like a theme that was sort of about a a per very personal journey for me of kind of coming into my own and having a child and thinking about what was I don't know it just felt like and I can remember at the time my I was trying to explain to my husband my writer husband like I wanted to have an emotional journey and he didn't really understand what I meant and I remember Stephen Holden when that back in the day when the Times actually reviewed those things which they don't anymore really um he said that it felt like a song cycle of a personal journey and I was like yeah that was so I felt like my intention was I succeeded at that and so then it was after that well did did you do "Eli's Coming" before you did the American songbook Laura Nyro concert?

[59:43] Judy Kuhn: Yeah, I did "Eli's Coming" at the Vineyard Theater and and in a way even though I listened to Laura Nyro when I was a kid it was enough it was I it was my awakening to her genius which I don't think I had fully appreciated. It's hard I think for a teenager to understand even though she was a teenager when she wrote "And When I Die" when she was 16 years old. I mean who's thinking about that when they're 16 years old? You know?

[1:01:18] Judy Kuhn: Anyway, um, and then it was actually um John Nakagawa at who was then running the songbook series, who a couple years later came to me and said, "We'd love to have you back, and we'd love for you to do an evening of Laura Nyro."

[1:01:31] Ben Rimalower: Was there like, oh, okay.

[1:01:34] Judy Kuhn: Oh, you've gone gone where the work was, Judy.

[1:01:37] Ben Rimalower: I that's me, yeah. In the in the flow. Um well, that's the the album that you wound up recording is such an incredible collection.

[1:01:45] Judy Kuhn: Oh, thank you.

[1:01:46] Ben Rimalower: And it's so funny because I remember I didn't really know Laura Nyro very well. And I remember thinking, uh I this these songs sound so great in Judy's like soprano, I'm sure they must be so different in the originals. And then I was like, oh no, Laura had some head voice going on.

[1:02:03] Judy Kuhn: Yeah, she did, she had a crazy voice. And I mean, for some people uh I think maybe some people didn't listen to her songs a lot because they couldn't handle her singing. But I mean, you know, people often say, "I don't know, who's Laura Nyro?" Like, you know Laura you you don't know that you know Laura Nyro's songs, but you do, and then you start so read down to "Stone Soul Picnic." You go, "Oh yeah, I know that song."

[1:02:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, you just don't know her singing it, but you know other people singing it.

[1:02:35] Judy Kuhn: Well, and of course "Stony End." Um I mean so many people had hits with her songs.

[1:02:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Was that were those besides people uh well besides Joni, what were the other um like when you were growing up, the artist that you were really into?

[1:02:52] Judy Kuhn: I mean I'm guessing it wasn't Barbara Streisand.

[1:02:55] Judy Kuhn: No, it wasn't, sorry. I was a Jew, I was a little young hippie, you know. So I I and I and as I say, I love those singers, songwriter, poets, you know. But Barbara sat on the back of that pickup truck and she wore the jeans and recorded all their songs. It didn't win you over. And she did record Laura Nyro. Um I listened to uh Neil Young, um, Carole King, Bob Dylan, The Beatles, of course, um, Crosby Stills, Nash and Young, um, you know.

[1:03:31] Ben Rimalower: Was there Broadway stuff that you had connected with material-wise or performer either?

[1:03:37] Judy Kuhn: You know, I didn't really listen to cast albums so much.

[1:03:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:03:42] Judy Kuhn: I I mean, some I more it was more just about loving going to the theater. I just loved and put because to me the theater was about a live thing, about you know, yeah, not a recorded thing so much.

[1:03:57] Ben Rimalower: Well, we love you live and we love you recording. We're almost out of time, but we have a game that we play with all of our guests, which you're gonna hate Judy. I'm sorry. I'm apologizing in advance. Um it's called Dolly Concert Kill.

[1:04:10] Judy Kuhn: I don't even know what that means.

[1:04:12] Ben Rimalower: There's like a game people always play called um Merryfuck Kill, where they get like three people. So we're gonna give you three performers, and there's one that you'll see as Dolly Levi in Hello Dolly. One that you'll see in concert, and we will dumb this down to make it a little more palatable for you. We'll make it Dolly concert chill. So one gets an all-expense paid vacation. You don't have to kill anybody. So wait, one you're gonna see in Dolly.

[1:04:37] Judy Kuhn: Oh, someone, oh, I want to see in Hello Dolly.

[1:04:40] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, so we'll give you three people and you just sort them into the categories.

[1:04:44] Judy Kuhn: Okay.

[1:04:46] Ben Rimalower: Three people, we should do Joni Mitchell.

[1:04:47] Judy Kuhn: Joni Mitchell's for sure.

[1:04:48] Ben Rimalower: Uh Laura Nyro.

[1:04:49] Judy Kuhn: Yeah.

[1:04:50] Ben Rimalower: And then Mary Beth Peel.

[1:04:51] Judy Kuhn: Mary Beth Peel.

[1:04:53] Ben Rimalower: Wait, wait, wait. So I'm sorry, I'm so confused by this. What's the other thing?

[1:04:57] Judy Kuhn: I don't think it's unique response to like putting people in boxes. I'm thinking about who do I want to see play Dolly Levi, and you're saying what?

[1:05:05] Ben Rimalower: So one of those people you have to see play Dolly.

[1:05:07] Judy Kuhn: Yeah.

[1:05:07] Ben Rimalower: One person in concert.

[1:05:09] Judy Kuhn: Oh, I see.

[1:05:10] Ben Rimalower: And then one person.

[1:05:11] Judy Kuhn: And I have to choose from those people.

[1:05:13] Judy Kuhn: Joni Mitchell's, Laura Nyro, and Mary Beth Peel.

[1:05:21] Judy Kuhn: I think maybe I'd like to see Laura Nyro play Dolly.

[1:05:24] Ben Rimalower: Alright. Great.

[1:05:28] Judy Kuhn: And then in concert.

[1:05:30] Ben Rimalower: Mary Beth or uh Joni.

[1:05:33] Judy Kuhn: And you can see that.

[1:05:34] Ben Rimalower: And then what's the third one?

[1:05:35] Judy Kuhn: Third one is the all expenses paid vacation.

[1:05:37] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[1:05:39] Judy Kuhn: With them.

[1:05:40] Ben Rimalower: Sure, yeah.

[1:05:40] Judy Kuhn: With them or what?

[1:05:41] Ben Rimalower: Judy.

[1:05:42] Judy Kuhn: You get to go with it.

[1:05:49] Ben Rimalower: Well, you know, I saw Joni Mitchell in concert, so but I've never seen Mary Beth in concert.

[1:05:53] Judy Kuhn: So there you go.

[1:05:54] Ben Rimalower: Fantastic.

[1:05:55] Judy Kuhn: There we go.

[1:05:55] Ben Rimalower: And Jenny on vacation.

[1:05:56] Judy Kuhn: Joni's going on a trip.

[1:05:57] Ben Rimalower: That's a vacation.

[1:05:58] Judy Kuhn: Yes, she does.

[1:06:00] Ben Rimalower: Judy, you deserve a vacation, but we hope you won't take it too long because we just want to see you do more shows, more concerts, more albums. We love you. Please help us thank Judy Kuhn for joining us today.

[1:06:12] Judy Kuhn: Thank you.

[1:06:12] Ben Rimalower: Thank you for having me.

[1:06:14] Judy Kuhn: Thank you, Judy.

[1:06:21] Daniel Nolen: Thanks for listening to Ben Rimalower's Broken Records on Broadway World. For more episodes, visit Broadway World, iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever podcasts do be. Our new season begins February 10th with Tony Award winner Lena Hall coming in to talk about Guns N' Roses Appetite for Destruction. After Lena, we'll be chatting with Drew Droghi, Alison Frazier, and Nathan Lee Graham. This episode was edited by me, Daniel Nolen. Thanks to Emmy winning composer and lyricist Lance Horn for the Broken Records theme song. Follow us both, Ben Rimalower and Daniel Nolen on all y'all's socials. That's Ben Rimalower. B-E-N R-I-M-A-L-O-W-E-R. And that's Nolan with an E, not Nolan with an A. Because Nolan with an A, isn't it?