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[0:01] Ben Rimalower: Broken records. The albums you wouldn't shut up about. Broken records. The musical guests can't live without like Judy, Barbara, Liza, Bette, Betty, Audra, Bernadette. We broadcast this podcast with hopes that someday we might get Patti LuPone.

[0:33] Ben Rimalower: Welcome to Cast Offs with Ben and Daniel on Broadway Podcast Network. I'm Ben Rimalower, and I am virtually here with my lovely co-host, Daniel Nolen.

[0:47] Daniel Nolen: Hey y'all. It's so good to be back here once again. Just Ben and me, and today we are quarantining, streaming our first movie, Jackie's's Back.

[1:01] Ben Rimalower: Jackie's back. That, of course, for the couple of uninitiated people out there who will hopefully get to experience this wonderful thing for the first time in their lucky lives.

[1:14] Daniel Nolen: And I have to admit, I was one of those people.

[1:16] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I didn't know that.

[1:17] Daniel Nolen: I've never seen it.

[1:37] Ben Rimalower: It's a couple of years. It's 1999.

[1:39] Daniel Nolen: Oh, did I say '91? It's '99.

[1:40] Ben Rimalower: '99. But it's a few years ahead of the comeback, and so it was very ahead of its time.

[1:46] Daniel Nolen: And um, it's very that. I mean, it has huge fans. I mean, I'm sure that, um, a lot of, for example, uh, Shangela, um, the winner, uh, or not the winner of RuPaul's Drag Race, finalist and should have been the winner of All Stars. Thank you. Uh, icon Shangela would for sure credit this as being a huge influence on her, um, personally and professionally, and certainly being the reason that she, uh, so gravitated toward Jenifer Lewis and then famously became, you know, her mentee and assistant and collaborator in a million things.

[2:26] Ben Rimalower: And there's no way, if you know Shangela and her work, there's no way to watch this without seeing the similarities between Miss Lewis and Shangela herself.

[2:35] Daniel Nolen: I mean, Jenifer Lewis is, I mean, Shangela, I know her more because I have seen her on Drag Race and perform live. So all the time I'm watching Jackie's's Back, I'm like, oh my god, this is so Shangela. When in reality, it's, you know, Shangela, I'm sure, speaking from Jenifer Lewis. But the two are so similar that it just brought me so much joy.

[2:59] Ben Rimalower: Wow. Um, yeah, I mean, I, you know, it's, I'm late to the Jackie's's Back party in a way. I mean, I'd seen it before I rewatched it now, but I'd really only seen it for the first time maybe like four or five years ago.

[3:13] Daniel Nolen: And I remember when it came out because, um, I would have, I guess if it was in the, you know, '99, maybe my, I don't know what I was watching on Lifetime in those days. The only thing I can think is Golden Girls. But I think there was actually something else then, maybe too, that I watched. But I remember the commercial so well because one of the things that's very noteworthy about Jackie's's Back is the sort of embarrassment of riches of, um, celebrity cameos.

[3:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I mean, I took a picture of my TV screen because it's just so amazing to see, uh, uh, uh, Bette Midler, Liza Minnelli listed just together in the credits for something in one, you know, uh, card. Um, and, um, but I mean, that's, you know, Dolly Parton, Whoopi Goldberg, I mean literally everybody's in the same thing.

[4:03] Daniel Nolen: And um, uh, so anyway, I just remember there being really, um, uh, fabulous, uh, commercial for Jackie's's Back.

[4:12] Ben Rimalower: I miss commercials, those kind of commercials.

[4:15] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, it was a great, it was a great commercial. So I don't know why I didn't watch it. I don't think I knew who Jenifer Lewis was at the time.

[4:23] Ben Rimalower: Um, and the commercial was sort of great because it was kind of like, you know, in the mockumentary style, it seemed like it was these people because they were playing themselves, the Lizas and the Bets and the Dollies, like they were talking Diane Carroll, like they were talking about someone real who was actually making a comeback. And I was like, I don't know who that is, you know.

[4:43] Daniel Nolen: And um, I wonder if it was ahead of its time. I mean, I tend to think of this as being like somehow unsuccessful. Um, and the fact is, I think as far as a Lifetime TV movie goes, it was a huge success. It's just that because it's become so influential, and you hear about it. I mean, even before Drag Race, I remember, uh, my friend Ryan Raftery, um, who's now gone on to be a star, uh, doing these, um, Andy Cohen, the musical, Martha Stewart, the musical, Anna Wintour show, and all these things so fabulous.

[5:16] Ben Rimalower: But yeah, I remember when I first met him, him talking about how influential this was on him and how much he worshipped Jenifer Lewis, and um, we were both sort of lollygagging on the outskirts of like the Marc Shaiman, Scott Whitman kind of like Hairspray, uh, universe.

[5:34] Daniel Nolen: And um, but Ryan very clearly, like, you know, the person he wanted to get to behind those gates was Jenifer Lewis.

[5:41] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god. I love that.

[5:43] Daniel Nolen: So that was when I started to be like, oh, and then I sort of think I became, I realized, oh, she's from everything. I've seen her in all these movies and a million TV shows, you know. I mean, and it's, I just watched Cast Away the other day, and she watched us at the end. I was like, oh my god, it's Jenifer Lewis.

[6:01] Ben Rimalower: Now, have you read her book, The Mother of Black Hollywood or listened to the audiobook?

[6:05] Daniel Nolen: I have not.

[6:06] Ben Rimalower: I have not.

[6:07] Daniel Nolen: It was so great.

[6:08] Ben Rimalower: I read it.

[6:09] Daniel Nolen: I need to listen to it. I wish I need to listen to because I read it, you know, it was so wonderful that I tore it up in like, you know, one evening when it first came out.

[6:18] Ben Rimalower: And um, I need to go back because um, I'm so curious now, like thinking about Jackie's's Back, like, you know, what this thing being produced, really a vehicle for her, tailored made for her. You know, I have so many questions, and like I really wish that she had been a writer on it because I think it might have been better if she had been one of the writers. Not that it's badly written, but I think it probably could have used more of her.

[6:47] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, and it's an interesting um idea. I feel like the 90s was such a rich time for like, uh, star vehicles, you know, like things that were tailored for a particular star. I just recently read that article that was written. I think it was written in the 2000s, but it was, uh, written by Paul Rebnik about his experience writing, uh, Sister Act and originally writing it for Bette Midler, and then with all the changes that were made and all this drama in Hollywood, like eventually Bette bowed out and it went to Whoopi, and you know, in the end, Paul asked that his name not be associated with it because there were so many changes and he felt like it wasn't, um, the way he had envisioned it and all that.

[7:34] Ben Rimalower: But it's such a fascinating um article because it talks about him really trying to craft this story to play to Bette Midler's strengths, and um, you know, uh, uh, uh, so many things on Broadway were like that back in the day as well. But I think something like Jackie's's Back and seeing a star like Jenifer Lewis and something that's so tailor-made for her is something that I miss, you know.

[8:01] Daniel Nolen: And it's funny you bring up the comeback because I was seeing so many similarities, of course, between this movie and The Comeback. And obviously this was first and so ahead of its time. But um, I mean, and by the way, The Comeback years later was still ahead of its time. I mean, still ahead of its time. Didn't get that second season for ten, what was it, ten years or whatever.

[8:21] Ben Rimalower: Exactly, yeah. And but like you're saying, uh, Lisa Kudrow, um, helped, uh, write for that show, and so she really had, um, you know, a real connection to the script as well as.

[8:34] Daniel Nolen: Well, I mean, I think this is such a relic of the 90s, and it's like, you know, and obviously we'll talk in depth about all the 90s, um, 90s in a minute. But one way that it's very pre-The Sopranos. It's very pre-Sex in the City. It feels like a 1990s Lifetime TV movie, you know. Whereas Lisa Kudrow doing The Comeback on HBO was clearly working in a new era of like really highly artistic and, you know, brilliantly produced television.

[9:04] Ben Rimalower: And um, I don't know. I just wanted to enjoy Jackie's's Back because I just kept, I was like living for her and loving watching it, and I just keep getting sucked into this negativity of like critiquing it and like wishing it were like, you know, because Jenifer Lewis is so brilliant and she deserves a vehicle produced, you know, with more money behind it and better writing and production values and all that, and it's like she should have that, and I would like to see that happen. But also too, this does exist, and it was wonderful that it did, you know, because she wasn't a huge star, so it was really cool that she had this vehicle.

[9:43] Daniel Nolen: Um, all this power behind her. I mean, um, I was thinking it's such a time capsule of like late 90s show business, like everyone who's in it, Rosie, um, uh, Bette, Liza, you know, and Liza, which, you know, right, it was the year after the Leading Ladies concert, Liza looking the exact same as she did when she was on stage singing some people.

[10:09] Ben Rimalower: Well, she probably filmed this, she probably filmed this around that time.

[10:12] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, that's how I knew I was like, oh, this must be late 90s because she is that same, uh, yes, well, we will get to Liza, that deserves its own episode, totally.

[10:22] Ben Rimalower: But um, yeah, it's such, I mean, all the people who are in this were in our houses all the time, you know. I mean, I was obsessed with Bette Midler when I was, you know, a late 90s kid.

[10:32] Daniel Nolen: Sure. Well, this was just all a couple years.

[10:34] Ben Rimalower: The Rosie show.

[10:35] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Exactly, exactly.

[10:37] Ben Rimalower: And so yeah, there's so much to discuss. But um, first off, I have to say, uh, we opened the film with Tim Curry introducing this mockumentary.

[10:48] Daniel Nolen: I immediately laugh because he introduces himself as Edward What's It Saint John, which of course is a joke that we love.

[10:57] Ben Rimalower: And that's another thing. I never, you know, Tim Curry was someone who I kind of, uh, knew about from like Home Alone and what was the other movie he was in that waste? Not Annie.

[11:09] Daniel Nolen: Annie, yeah, that's the other one.

[11:11] Ben Rimalower: Annie and Home Alone. Was Rocky Horror Show not a thing, like when you were in junior high and stuff?

[11:16] Daniel Nolen: No, I mean, I knew some kids who liked it, but like I never watched it until just really a few years ago.

[11:23] Ben Rimalower: I mean, this might blow your, like, Oklahoma mind, your Oklahoma mind. But um, like growing up in LA, like I mean, I knew a couple of like weirdos when I was older who were like serious, like Rocky Horror people. But like when I was 12, like one of the most common 12-year-old birthday parties was that the parents would take like 30 kids to see the Rocky Horror Show.

[11:50] Daniel Nolen: Oh, I love that.

[11:51] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, I cannot even imagine that.

[11:53] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, Oklahoma, I mean, just the cross-dressing of it all alone would have been too much.

[11:57] Ben Rimalower: You know, it's so funny because it was so buried in the um genre of um like horror. It like it's, I mean, obviously where I lived was a lot more liberal and progressive than where you did. But it, you know, we didn't really experience it like as this like super queer thing.

[12:21] Daniel Nolen: I mean, obviously that's part of the genius, is like how it, the queerness like was like planted in us, you know.

[12:26] Ben Rimalower: Yes, exactly. So like I didn't feel watching the Rocky Horror Picture Show the way I would later feel watching, you know, like out gay characters and things and whatever. You know, it was very like in that sort of Adams Family, like they're just weird.

[12:43] Daniel Nolen: It's all just they're just, yeah, Greek show, Halloween, yeah, yeah.

[12:48] Ben Rimalower: And um, but anyway, but I, but I obviously knew Tim Curry from that, and Annie was so major, uh, for me.

[12:57] Daniel Nolen: Um, yeah.

[12:58] Ben Rimalower: I made a bunch of other movies, uh, you know, when I was, because he was a big movie star in the 80s when I was a kid.

[12:58] Daniel Nolen: That's what I was gonna say. I don't think I realized what a star he was, you know, back in the day.

[13:08] Ben Rimalower: And I mean, then he came to Broadway, and I mean he's been on Broadway, I guess, several times, but um, yeah, I just, Tim Curry was never someone I really, that was on my radar.

[13:18] Daniel Nolen: But watching him in this, I mean, not only is he brilliant, but you know, he's top billed right up there with Jennifer.

[13:24] Ben Rimalower: I got so annoyed though watching him last night because like it feels like one of the most wrong notes struck by this piece, if you will.

[13:24] Daniel Nolen: This piece.

[13:34] Daniel Nolen: Um, because like I want it to be like, I mean, it's it I guess it couldn't be because it's from 99 and it's sort of based on like pop culture of like the like 80s and 90s, yeah, which was before this thing kind of kind of existed.

[13:49] Daniel Nolen: But I want it to be somebody more like E! News-ish, you know.

[13:54] Daniel Nolen: Like I want it to be like gay, well, gay or even a woman, but just someone like young and like American and like like a fast talking, like gum chewing, like I want it to be more MTV even, not MTV, but like E!, you know, um, and uh Talk Soup or whatever, you know.

[14:14] Daniel Nolen: Um, and it just feels like the sort of Masterpiece Theatre aspect of him kind of like bugged me.

[14:22] Daniel Nolen: I feel like it like is not helpful to this like task of like telling the story, and um, and also just like hit it's so you know, it's just so it just so ahead of its time that like some of what it's about hadn't even really happened yet, you know.

[14:36] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[14:37] Daniel Nolen: But I just like I wanted um, I don't know.

[14:41] Daniel Nolen: Well, the one of the things that was so weird to me about this, and it's part of what I love about Jenifer Lewis, and um it's part of what uh you would never see in 2020 or like 2010 or even like you know, 2002.

[14:58] Daniel Nolen: But like she's so it's such a like realistic like nuts and bolts of showbiz like story.

[15:06] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[15:06] Daniel Nolen: Like that she lives in this like non-mansion, like in the valley.

[15:11] Daniel Nolen: I mean, that's where I grew up.

[15:12] Daniel Nolen: That is not like the rich neighborhood.

[15:14] Daniel Nolen: It's like very middle class or like slightly upper middle class, you know.

[15:18] Daniel Nolen: And like she um, you know, she needs the money from the gigs, and like, you know, she plays like what is it, like a 1200 seat theater, you know.

[15:29] Daniel Nolen: It's like I feel like, you know, and by the way, she needs the money, but you don't see her like desperate and like borderline homeless.

[15:38] Daniel Nolen: I feel like something nowadays, the person who needs the comeback would be like in dire straits financially.

[15:44] Daniel Nolen: And the level that they supposedly had been living on as a supposed star would be like mansion, Mercedes, servants, you know, not just like entendra, can you press my gown?

[15:57] Daniel Nolen: You know, it's like there's there's something sort of um like humble and like real sized about this because of course, you know, lots of people who work in show business who are famous are not also rich, you know, or even if they're well to do, they're not billionaires or multi, you know, they might be living like on a much more human scale, and you never see that anymore.

[16:20] Ben Rimalower: And it's sort of like in a weird way for me and my like fascination with like money and all that, it's like a little like unsatisfying about this.

[16:28] Daniel Nolen: Um, and I think maybe it's part of the reason that it didn't reach a bigger audience is because like on like a comeback story of like a fallen, like has-been star.

[16:37] Daniel Nolen: I think people are addicted to the like you know, dynasty real housewives kind of like grandiosity.

[16:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[16:46] Daniel Nolen: Well, and sometimes even like real housewives and stuff, um, I mean, you know this better than I because I think you have some sort of connection to them, I'm not sure.

[16:55] Ben Rimalower: But um I uh, you know, sometimes I feel like that element, that side of it is enhanced even more, you know.

[17:03] Daniel Nolen: Sometimes these people aren't that real.

[17:06] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, because we're faking it, you know, as people do in real Hollywood, and part of what's so inspiring and great about Jenifer Lewis is that whether it's in her book or on her YouTube videos or in interviews, or where, you know, when she's one of the things that got me really re-obsessed with Jenifer Lewis a few years ago, and which is why I snatched up her memoir when it came out, is because there was a speech she gave at a um a commencement speech that she gave that went viral on YouTube where she says the elevator to success is broken, take the stairs.

[17:39] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, and uh it's a real everybody should watch this.

[17:42] Ben Rimalower: It's such an inspiring speech, and it's such real talk.

[17:45] Daniel Nolen: And but one of the things that's been very consistent in all of her messaging for years and years that is so refreshing and you never hear, is that she really and it's a lot of stuff in her book.

[17:56] Daniel Nolen: She talks about how important it was for her to buy her house, you know, and she give it's very I mean, it's the kind of shit I'm obsessed with because it's so nuts and bolts and it's so real life.

[18:05] Daniel Nolen: And it's like, you know, she is somebody who for years and years and years was struggling to make a living in show business, but was so talented and so ambitious and so um resourceful and hardworking and you know didn't give up that you know, she kept herself afloat as she started to build her success, you know.

[18:27] Daniel Nolen: And she talks in the book about the ways that she worked hard to make that last and to keep the roof above her head, you know, and even you know, even that great that YouTube series um uh Jenifer Lewis and Shangela, you just see such a real picture of like her life, you know, which is not even though she has this sort of glamorous, like starry mansion, it's presented in this real way that you see a real person lives there, like the garbage has to be taken out, you know.

[18:55] Ben Rimalower: Yeah things break and need to be fixed.

[18:58] Daniel Nolen: Like she's sitting on a couch that she bought, and it's not just like magically replaced next season with something more current, you know.

[19:06] Daniel Nolen: It's like, and I think that's really wonderful about her.

[19:08] Ben Rimalower: So I was trying to like just like soak that in and enjoy that about this because I mean, well, all right, I guess let's just get into it.

[19:16] Daniel Nolen: But like, well, I guess we kind of are.

[19:18] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I just um I took all these notes like in chronological order, but I'm just gonna go.

[19:21] Ben Rimalower: No, but I think that's what you're what you're saying is, and I have to watch that speech, I have not seen it.

[19:26] Daniel Nolen: Well, what you're saying is so spot on.

[19:29] Daniel Nolen: And people like that, I mean, I immediately, of course, think of Joan Rivers.

[19:33] Daniel Nolen: People like that are so inspiring, and it's so fascinating to hear their story and see how they operate.

[19:41] Ben Rimalower: I mean, she's honestly, she's the opposite of the reality television Trump era that we live in, you know, because and not not to I'm not even talking about like Donald Trump president, I'm talking about just like the last you know, 10 years before he was even in office.

[19:56] Ben Rimalower: You know, this idea of like the mortgage crisis and like people on reality shows like going to jail for fraud that they committed because they were trying to present a certain lifestyle, you know, and that's a problem that's so common, you know, for so many of us who aren't famous, you know, just wanting to like have the material stuff on Facebook and Instagram and all that, you know.

[20:18] Daniel Nolen: And Jennifer Lewis is really like someone that is just so real, and the success and the wealth that she has is so uh grounded.

[20:29] Ben Rimalower: So grounded.

[20:30] Daniel Nolen: And and it's be and it's based on her work ethic and her knowing that she has something to offer and um profiting off of that uh you know, the service she provides or whatever.

[20:44] Ben Rimalower: It's like um, like I said, with Joan.

[20:47] Ben Rimalower: I mean, Joan was uh a comedian and a star, but she was also, you know, she had to be a businesswoman and she had to uh buy everything herself because she took the stairs and yeah, um she did everything from casinos to her reality show with Melissa, also in Lifetime to Fashion Police Fashion Police to everyone.

[21:07] Daniel Nolen: I mean I'm sure she would have done our podcast if she was.

[21:10] Ben Rimalower: And the red carpet.

[21:11] Ben Rimalower: I mean, there's no the amount of work that Joan generated and you know, and some of those things were huge successes that's so cool because I can literally see her house from where I'm sitting, you know, her her home, her the building she lived in.

[21:28] Daniel Nolen: Oh, really?

[21:28] Ben Rimalower: Oh I love um and uh it's like um but she also had a lot of flops, you know, and talk shows and all that shit, and like, you know, and even public um financial reckonings, you know, after that.

[21:45] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean all the Johnny Carson stuff, her husband killing himself.

[21:48] Ben Rimalower: And it's like it's but it's very Jackie's and Jackie's's back.

[21:51] Ben Rimalower: You know, she had all total setbacks too you know, that they're they're made comical and um overblown, but it's uh this is truly kind of a stick with it showbiz story.

[22:02] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[22:03] Ben Rimalower: And and it's so I I love that you said that about Joan because it's so true.

[22:06] Ben Rimalower: I mean, that there's so many like people you can think this is like sort of inspired by story-wise.

[22:13] Daniel Nolen: Um you know, and the first one when she when they talk about her first hit back in the day being uh yield.

[22:21] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, it's um it's so stop in the name of love.

[22:25] Ben Rimalower: It's yeah, ridiculous.

[22:26] Daniel Nolen: Although it sounds more like a like a Jackson 5 tune.

[22:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[22:31] Daniel Nolen: And um uh anyway, uh, but oh, the other thing I just kept thinking in terms of like the production values of this when I just kept reminding myself that it's a um Lifetime TV movie from the 90s, um, is that just even the sheer quantity of cameos, this plays almost like a quarantine, like a COVID quarantine like like telephone, you know, and it really feels, I mean, I we've got to find out.

[23:01] Daniel Nolen: I believe that some of these cameos were recorded where the star was working on something else and had an hour to give them.

[23:10] Daniel Nolen: Like I'm convinced that Whoopi's entire role in this was filmed in her trailer for some other project.

[23:17] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, that's so funny.

[23:18] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, well, what movie would that would that have been for her and but like why would the sister Ethel, who's like a poor or like working class registered nurse, why would she have a mahogany wet bar with like three fancy blenders and nothing else behind her?

[23:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[23:38] Daniel Nolen: That is so not a set anybody like designed for this moment, you know.

[23:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[23:45] Daniel Nolen: And I feel like there's a lot that's like that in it.

[23:48] Daniel Nolen: Um, so I I don't know, it made me feel like somebody should write Jenifer Lewis like a sequel, and she should write it, uh, or Shangela.

[23:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and like, and they should just and they could totally film it now, you know.

[24:02] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god, that would be brilliant.

[24:04] Daniel Nolen: I also would love um, because there are a lot of songs in this.

[24:08] Daniel Nolen: I was like, I would love to see uh I don't know if Shangela can sing, but I was like, I would love to see Shangela star in like a musical production.

[24:19] Ben Rimalower: Totally, totally.

[24:21] Ben Rimalower: I mean, um uh Jennifer, of course, has such a sensational voice.

[24:26] Daniel Nolen: I mean, um I mean so good.

[24:29] Ben Rimalower: You can understand why Michael Bennett chose Jennifer Holliday for Dreamgirls instead.

[24:34] Daniel Nolen: Yes, but she was in the workshop, right?

[24:36] Ben Rimalower: But but yeah, but I mean, but short of like that, which is like, you know, up there with like the absolute greatest, you know, vocal performances in history, you know.

[24:46] Ben Rimalower: Um short of that, Jennifer really sings her face off.

[24:50] Daniel Nolen: I mean, when I love when uh well, she makes the same Shirley Bassey joke that we loved so much in her 54 Below show.

[24:58] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, yeah.

[24:59] Daniel Nolen: I was there were so many jokes and moments in this movie that I was like, oh, that's where that came from.

[25:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, or I was like, is this where that came from?

[25:08] Daniel Nolen: Like when she at the beginning when she says I was I was at Tarjay.

[25:12] Ben Rimalower: I was like, is this where Target came from?

[25:14] Daniel Nolen: Or that's a good question.

[25:16] Ben Rimalower: I didn't even notice it.

[25:18] Daniel Nolen: But she um uh but uh the other thing I was gonna say is she but she does have a Shirley Bassey quality to her voice.

[25:25] Daniel Nolen: It's so powerful and steely, almost like Steely, like a like a like a tenor or something, you know.

[25:30] Ben Rimalower: I mean, she I'll tell you, of all the maybe every female singer I've ever heard, she really sings like a man.

[25:39] Daniel Nolen: Like, yeah, she is all chest voice.

[25:41] Ben Rimalower: I mean, except for maybe like Bea Arthur.

[25:44] Ben Rimalower: Like, you know, um, but you know, but Bea.

[25:47] Daniel Nolen: Arthur sings like a man and sings in a man's vocal range.

[25:52] Ben Rimalower: But I mean Jennifer is a powerhouse alto.

[25:55] Daniel Nolen: I mean, she sings gospel too, you know.

[25:57] Ben Rimalower: But it's like vocal power, it's all it's all gravel.

[26:01] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, well, you know, well, or the other example I would say would be like Elaine Stritch, who's pure gravel, especially here.

[26:06] Ben Rimalower: But I mean, Jennifer really, like it's a big ol' belting alto, but it is just chest voice.

[26:14] Daniel Nolen: Um chesty, honey.

[26:16] Ben Rimalower: And um, I'm really obsessed with that last uh way she ends the song, Look at Me, which you get to hear her do in the right near the beginning and then again at the end.

[26:27] Ben Rimalower: Um, where she like she hits that like big note on that rich e vowel and then she's like she's like me I'm not singing it right but she like slides down to three notes like for the end of the chord and it's and it's like because the me is that me and then she gets to open up into the vibrato just adding like an ah but without taking a breath you know yeah she knows how to work it.

[26:55] Daniel Nolen: I mean this I I need an album of this you know yeah me too um I'm surprised this never had a life on the stage I mean because you know it's Marc Shaiman uh who of course but Marc Shaiman I don't think he wrote the music like he collaborated on the lyrics and I think he might have done some of the arrangements we can find out but it it was hard to like like I like had to like freeze like the IMDB stuff is incomplete so I like froze the screen so I could like take a uh screen grab of the um credits as they were rolling so I could read them fast enough you know it says music and lyrics by Marc Shaiman for what for what Jackie's's back oh on IMDB that's his whole credit well it's on his website markshaven.com it says interesting so maybe there's something messed up with how he was billed because on the credits of the movie it doesn't say that it says no credit for music and it says lyrics as a collaboration between um Mark and somebody else and Jenifer Lewis.

[28:02] Ben Rimalower: Oh well.

[28:03] Daniel Nolen: Um Mark's gonna get all pissed if we get it wrong.

[28:06] Ben Rimalower: Wait, do I still have the thing I saved? It says music consultant Jackie's Frost and the uh Jackie's Crossed and then lyrics to musical compositions by Mark Alton Brown, who wrote the script, Jenifer Lewis and Marc Shaiman.

[28:19] Daniel Nolen: Maybe there was another credit for music that I missed that was like on a separate thing.

[28:22] Ben Rimalower: Um anyway. Well, I'm glad to hear that because the Marc Shaiman score, we have a much better shot of getting like a proper uh performance.

[28:28] Daniel Nolen: But that but that also goes back to the fact that it was a lifetime TV movie, and it didn't really come into its own legend until more recent times, you know.

[28:38] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[28:38] Daniel Nolen: Um there was no DVD for years, you know.

[28:41] Ben Rimalower: That was also very recent.

[28:43] Daniel Nolen: So, okay, so uh we're talking about speaking of men and you know, uh playing women that sing like men, I was obsessed. I never I didn't realize this the first time I watched it, but I knew that the actor that plays Kim, her trans um costume designer was so familiar to me.

[29:01] Ben Rimalower: And um can you picture him?

[29:04] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[29:05] Ben Rimalower: He's so distinctive looking and sounding, right?

[29:08] Daniel Nolen: Um that his name is Lauren Freeman, and he um was not the original off Broadway star of the musical Ruthless, but he was the original LA star, and the LA cast is the one that's on the album.

[29:23] Ben Rimalower: Mmm.

[29:24] Daniel Nolen: Um that's why I knew his voice so well. Um and by the way, Ruthless is a great musical. Coincidentally, score by uh music by Marvin Laird, who is Bernadette Peters' musical director all these years, who we were just talking about last week.

[29:36] Ben Rimalower: Oh, right.

[29:37] Daniel Nolen: Um anyway, but uh, and there's a uh con benefit concert they did of Ruthless once with Bernadette as um Judy Denmark slash Ginger Del Marco. Uh uh, the part that Joan Ryan played on the album from the LA cast.

[29:53] Ben Rimalower: But um, so there's videos on YouTube of Bernadette playing that amazing role.

[29:57] Daniel Nolen: Um Soprano Ann Belter. But so anyway, I recognize Lauren Freeman. I was so excited. Um, there is a B. Arthur joke in addition to a um in addition to the Shirley Bassey joke.

[30:14] Ben Rimalower: That cracked me up.

[30:15] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, they really they really name-dropped B. Arthur a lot. I wonder if she was someone they tried to get and she was B was just too busy.

[30:22] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I just thought it was funny too, because it was like Ella, what is it? It's it's Ella Billy Shirley Bassey.

[30:30] Daniel Nolen: Those are the dead dealers.

[30:31] Ben Rimalower: I love that she gets Shirley needs the last name. And then um the people that have stolen from her are Whitney, Aretha, Lil Brandy, and um, uh, who was at the height of her success with Moesha at the time.

[30:44] Daniel Nolen: And like, and I guess this was after um the the Brandy Whitney Cinderella.

[30:49] Ben Rimalower: Brandi Whitney, Brennadette, Cinderella.

[30:51] Daniel Nolen: And um, but then uh she says, um uh and B. Arthur.

[30:57] Ben Rimalower: And I said that was just such a great punchline to me.

[30:59] Daniel Nolen: That like that's not who you think number like four is right, right, right.

[31:04] Ben Rimalower: Um seeing David Hyde Pearce as her pianist, I have to say, first of all, he was adorable.

[31:09] Daniel Nolen: Um, but it really made me wish that she had been one of the Dollys on Broadway.

[31:14] Ben Rimalower: That seems like a I mean, I know she played the part in Seattle like 15 years ago or something, but it seems to me a real like sale that like I mean, I guess was Blackish not big yet when I was.

[31:29] Daniel Nolen: It definitely was maybe.

[31:31] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I'm surprised. I mean, I guess I mean, I don't know. I mean, I was I was saying I'm surprised they didn't offer it to her at least on tour, but maybe they did, who knows?

[31:40] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I'm sure she didn't want to schlump around like that.

[31:43] Ben Rimalower: Um yeah, maybe not. She works hard. Maybe it didn't work out. I mean, she had a TV show.

[31:48] Daniel Nolen: I did watch footage of her doing it in Seattle, and I mean, it was pretty cool.

[31:52] Ben Rimalower: I gotta watch it.

[31:53] Daniel Nolen: I know I got to watch it. Uh, I mean, there's just small, small clips, but how funny are those photos of her um with the stars when they're talking about all her different projects and of all her different headlines and like the one of her with Jackie's Mason.

[32:07] Ben Rimalower: I mean, the sense of humor is just so it's just so um like just crass and hilarious.

[32:16] Daniel Nolen: I mean, like the deadly Afro pick is like ah yeah, but you know I live for all of that.

[32:21] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[32:22] Daniel Nolen: Um speaking of crass and hilarious, um, another guest star I fucking love is um uh Penny Marshall.

[32:29] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god.

[32:30] Daniel Nolen: Serving like straight up like 90s Barbara hair.

[32:35] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[32:35] Daniel Nolen: Um and the thing I love about Penny Marshall is that she the way she talks, it's like she moves her mouth with as little effort as possible. It's like she wants to get every word out, just eking by on like the most minimal amount of physical movement.

[32:54] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I honestly feel like she copied Rosie O'Donnell's impression of her.

[33:00] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, do you remember when they were like in those Kmart commercials?

[33:04] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god.

[33:04] Daniel Nolen: That kind of I live. Live for it. Live.

[33:07] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I feel like the friendship of Rosie O'Donnell and Penny Marshall is the number one duo that I would like.

[33:16] Daniel Nolen: That's the that's the that's the thruple that I want to be the third in.

[33:16] Ben Rimalower: You know what thruple I want to be the third in is Penny Marshall and Carrie Fisher.

[33:24] Daniel Nolen: Oh yeah, that goes to the city.

[33:26] Ben Rimalower: Because they were also BFF.

[33:27] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[33:28] Ben Rimalower: But um, I mean, that's another thing that I feel like, I mean, we still get it nowadays, like these kind of duos, but I mean, not to that level.

[33:36] Daniel Nolen: I mean, where they're literally uh, you know, doing Kmart commercials and um Well, Daniel, here's hoping.

[33:45] Ben Rimalower: I know. If you're listening Kmart, um, I just went to your location in Astor Place the other day looking for some hands, Sani.

[33:51] Daniel Nolen: Did you find any?

[33:53] Ben Rimalower: I did not, unfortunately, but like I said, Rosie, Liza, um, we also get a Kathy Griffin appearance.

[34:00] Daniel Nolen: Which I like her face.

[34:03] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, her old face was.

[34:05] Daniel Nolen: When she was on that sitcom.

[34:06] Ben Rimalower: Suddenly Susan.

[34:08] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, or maybe it had just ended.

[34:10] Ben Rimalower: With Brick with Brooke Shields.

[34:11] Daniel Nolen: Um, yeah, that was so surprising to me because when I started watching it, Kathy popped up and I was like, oh, wait, is this like 2000s, 2010s? And then I was like, no, this has to be 90s.

[34:23] Ben Rimalower: And I guess I didn't realize that Kathy was famous back then.

[34:27] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I knew she was on the TV show, but she was like I remember being aware of her stand-up just you know, as just like one of many like stand-up comedians that I guess I saw her a lot on that show.

[34:39] Ben Rimalower: Oh god, what's that show?

[34:40] Daniel Nolen: Um, Whose Line is it anyway with Drew Carey.

[34:43] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, hilarious.

[34:44] Daniel Nolen: Um loved it. Speaking of basic cable.

[34:47] Ben Rimalower: Um also like Coco, like her big um but that's her flop, right?

[34:53] Daniel Nolen: That her the characters.

[34:55] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I'm obsessed with Coco.

[34:56] Daniel Nolen: Coco's revenge.

[34:58] Ben Rimalower: And I knew that song somehow. I feel like maybe when Jennifer was on RuPaul's podcast, maybe she did an impromptu rendition of the colour.

[35:05] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah, I knew to live.

[35:08] Ben Rimalower: I I was so into that. Um, I love when the what's the line they say they um you know how you hear people say you'll never work in this town again with Jackie's, they would say you'll never work in this country again.

[35:21] Daniel Nolen: Um, okay, Liza.

[35:23] Ben Rimalower: Um god. Okay, first of all, did you notice Liza is the only person in the whole thing where they had to do an edit.

[35:34] Daniel Nolen: What do you know?

[35:34] Ben Rimalower: What do you mean?

[35:35] Daniel Nolen: Like all these cameos are like in one shot. And like Liza, there actually is like a cut.

[35:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, like she didn't get it. And and then, and it's also funny because then they have the joke of cutting out on her when she's like, I don't know much about the African ding.

[35:51] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yes, yes, yes. I did I did notice that, but I thought that was just for joke effect.

[35:55] Ben Rimalower: No, I think so, probably. But it is weird how like there was another cut that was like not intentional.

[36:02] Daniel Nolen: I have to say about Liza, sh out of all of these guest cameo uh talking heads, Liza, Liza's acting is like so good.

[36:11] Ben Rimalower: I mean, all of them, you like Dolly and a little bet, you can tell it's kind of like they're just trying, you know, trying to do this.

[36:18] Daniel Nolen: No, they're like, that's like terrible in her class. Reading the words off the teleprompter.

[36:24] Ben Rimalower: It doesn't seem at all like Bette Midler. Except that I mean she looks fabulous.

[36:28] Daniel Nolen: I will do that.

[36:29] Ben Rimalower: She looks fabulous, and she does her little bet expressions, but yeah, bad.

[36:33] Daniel Nolen: But Liza is like a monologue.

[36:36] Ben Rimalower: I mean, Liza's is like heart-wrenching. Like, I feel like I'm not sure.

[36:38] Daniel Nolen: I don't even think I'm not convinced.

[36:40] Ben Rimalower: I don't believe for sure that Liza knew it was a script.

[36:45] Daniel Nolen: Like, I don't think Liza, like Liza might have thought there really was a jack.

[36:49] Ben Rimalower: It really was a Jack. She just like bullshit.

[36:52] Daniel Nolen: She was like, oh yeah.

[36:54] Ben Rimalower: Like it's so much of your, it's so like your story.

[36:56] Daniel Nolen: I was just gonna say.

[36:57] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it's like Liza just as like acting like she is uh just um faking it, you know.

[37:03] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[37:04] Ben Rimalower: Um she just lies.

[37:06] Daniel Nolen: She just anyway.

[37:07] Ben Rimalower: Um, but Liza, I truly felt like it was so nuanced, and like I could really see the wheels turning in her head, like as she was saying all this stuff.

[37:16] Daniel Nolen: I was like, wow, like Liza's really, really believing this.

[37:20] Ben Rimalower: Speaking of acting, though, I just have to say, like, just Jennifer, like it, I think part of the reason I was getting like frustrated, wishing that as good as this is that it were like better, that it were like HBO quality, is because Jennifer is just so good.

[37:37] Daniel Nolen: Like every time they give her any moment to play, there's like 17 layers to it, you know.

[37:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. I mean, she like I feel like she's gonna win an Academy Award someday because she is just as good as it gets.

[37:51] Daniel Nolen: I mean, you know, she's a fabulous singer, you know, and maybe she's not on the Jennifer Holliday level of like star, like once in a generation vocalist, but she's a fucking like restaurant quality singer, you know, yeah, all the way.

[38:07] Ben Rimalower: But as an actor, she is that level of star, you know. Even even if you put aside what a great force she is in Hollywood and what a great um, you know, um talker raconteur and and all that, like just as an actor in a character in a piece, she is, you know, up there with Meryl Streep and um, you know, Viola Davis or whoever.

[38:34] Daniel Nolen: Well, and it's I think something I always think about Jennifer is that she puts specific energy into everything she does, every line she reads, every move she makes, and there's such intention in every choice.

[38:48] Ben Rimalower: And there's such force behind it that it really um, yeah, it just it transcends, you know, it's like they say about Elizabeth Taylor.

[38:57] Daniel Nolen: It's like there's some sort of vibrational frequency that occurs between her and like the lens of the camera.

[39:02] Ben Rimalower: It's funny, it made me think of Patty in a way, because you know, people complain sometimes, like, oh, Patty's so patty and all these different performances.

[39:12] Daniel Nolen: But that's what I love about her.

[39:14] Ben Rimalower: Like, I wish Patty was more of that, you know.

[39:17] Daniel Nolen: Like what I think is wonderful about Jenifer Lewis is that she brings her whole self into the role.

[39:22] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[39:23] Daniel Nolen: And like that's what I'm most into when you just feel like the entire humanity of the actor is like completely absorbed into the character.

[39:33] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[39:33] Daniel Nolen: Um, on the opposite end of the acting spectrum, Isabel Sanford.

[39:38] Ben Rimalower: Do we know who that is?

[39:40] Daniel Nolen: She was Wheezy Jefferson.

[39:42] Ben Rimalower: Mm-hmm.

[39:43] Daniel Nolen: Um, I'm just obsessed with her. She plays the, is it a teacher?

[39:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, that Jennifer, like that won't talk to her.

[39:52] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yes.

[39:53] Ben Rimalower: Because it's mad at her. Um that, um, Mary Wilson, is she in this?

[39:59] Daniel Nolen: Does she?

[40:00] Ben Rimalower: Yes, oh my god, yeah.

[40:01] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[40:02] Ben Rimalower: Which one is, who does she play?

[40:04] Daniel Nolen: She played, um, maybe she was there. Let me look up.

[40:08] Ben Rimalower: Oh, was she one of, was she the grown-up version of one of the singers that she started out with?

[40:14] Daniel Nolen: Uh, Vesta Crotchley.

[40:16] Ben Rimalower: Oh no, no, Isabel Sandford wasn't her.

[40:18] Daniel Nolen: Third grade teacher.

[40:19] Ben Rimalower: Oh, she was the teacher.

[40:20] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah.

[40:20] Ben Rimalower: Isabel Sandford was her playmama.

[40:24] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yes, Mrs.

[40:25] Ben Rimalower: Mrs.

[40:26] Daniel Nolen: Croom's the play mama.

[40:27] Ben Rimalower: Yes, oh my god, I love that part. I have to say though, maybe my favorite performance of any of these people in the whole cast is Loretta Divine as her childhood friend.

[40:36] Daniel Nolen: Fabulous Tate.

[40:37] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god.

[40:39] Daniel Nolen: She is delicious.

[40:40] Ben Rimalower: Delicious.

[40:41] Daniel Nolen: Delicious.

[40:42] Ben Rimalower: Um my god, who else? The other person I love is, um, I mean, true just an embarrassment of riches, like you said. Kathy Najimy as like the weird, like stalker in the cocoa cosplay outfit.

[40:55] Daniel Nolen: It's too much.

[40:56] Ben Rimalower: Too much.

[40:57] Daniel Nolen: Hilarious. Another Kathy Najimy, another like, what was I watching?

[41:01] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I was watching the other day. I was watching Jeffree, and you know, Kathy plays that hilarious.

[41:06] Daniel Nolen: In the Oprah scene where Mary Anlinson Sigourney Weaver.

[41:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[41:10] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[41:11] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[41:12] Daniel Nolen: So good.

[41:13] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god. That movie is, I mean, I understand that Jeffree wasn't successful in terms of like how it functioned as a motion picture. And there were things that were, you know, maybe like very message-y about the play that were fine off-Broadway in the 90s, but didn't translate on the big screen. That said, Paul Rudnick's fabulous comedy for just the best punchlines, maybe ever, for all those crazy characters are so, I mean, it makes you appreciate how brilliant Harriet Harris was in the original Off-Broadway production because the characters in Jeffree that Kathleen and Jimmy played, that, um, Sigourney Weaver played, that, uh, Olympia Dukakis played, that Deborah Monk played, that, um, uh, I've now I'm like forgetting.

There's so many like amazing cameos. They're all, they were all played on that level of good and at that level specific by Harriet Harris. Um, I love her, but, but yeah, they're really astonishing performances, including Kathy Najimy. Um, and, uh, I guess she just wasn't that, um, famous yet that she could still do, you know.

[42:22] Daniel Nolen: Did you know, uh, RuPaul talks about, uh, knowing Kathy way back in the day, like they met at some club, I think in California. He said he would go to this dance club and he would always see Kathy there.

[42:37] Ben Rimalower: And, uh, she would, you know, she's this, uh, straight girl at this gay club, and they would always dance together. And it was before either of them were famous, and, um, they still talk about that and they're still friends, and Kathy's the one who, uh, got Bob the Drag Queen on Drag Race.

[42:55] Daniel Nolen: Oh, because she saw him, she saw him perform on like a cruise or something, and called RuPaul, and I think she might have even had Bob there and like called RuPaul and had Bob talk to Rue on the phone and was like, I found, I found the next winner of your show.

[43:10] Ben Rimalower: When I, um, did Patty Issues at the Adelaide Cabaret Festival, um, one of the headliners was Kathy doing, um, what was then like supposed I guess like an early developmental performance of this one woman show she has that's actually kind of similar to Patty Issues, but it's, um, about her relationship with Bette Midler.

[43:31] Daniel Nolen: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What is it?

[43:34] Ben Rimalower: Is it favorable? What is it about?

[43:36] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean, it's like she, it's her one woman show. By the way, Brian Nash, our friend, friend of the pod, is the musical director and collaborator on it. Um, and it's, uh, her story about growing up, uh, obsessed with Bette Midler and then getting to become a big star and getting to work with Bette Midler.

[43:53] Ben Rimalower: Work with her.

[43:54] Daniel Nolen: Wow, I had no idea.

[43:56] Ben Rimalower: I have to get, you must have been.

[43:59] Daniel Nolen: You will love it. You will love it. It was, I was just telling someone, I, I don't, I've always wondered about their relationship because for some reason I have it in my head that like Bet and Kathy don't get along, and that's totally just made up in my mind.

[44:14] Ben Rimalower: Maybe, maybe it's true. I mean, I don't, I don't recall that being a part of the story that she told, you know.

[44:20] Daniel Nolen: Okay.

[44:20] Ben Rimalower: Um, I, I don't know. I, I guess for some reason, like whenever Bet is talking about Hocus Pocus on Twitter, I feel like she always mentions like Sarah Jessica, but never Kathy.

[44:30] Daniel Nolen: And so for some reason I've created this narrative in my mind wherein Bet and, uh, Kathy just aren't friends or whatever, but that's so fascinating that she had an actual show about her.

[44:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, no, I mean it, I would say it was less about Bet than Patty Issues about Patty, but like not that much less, you know.

[44:52] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[44:52] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, I have to say no, maybe it was even more because like the whatever. It was a lot, it was very Bette Midler focused.

[45:00] Daniel Nolen: Um, that makes me love Kathy even more, knowing that she's also like a fan.

[45:05] Ben Rimalower: You would really be, um, oh, I also speaking of Bet, uh, the character Jackie's's like 1970s like smooth like disco ballad. I, I love, I'm obsessed with all the songs that like they reference from her career that you don't get to fully see. Like when we do our Broadway musical of it, I want all those things fleshed out.

[45:26] Daniel Nolen: Well, my favorite is, um, working my last nerve.

[45:30] Ben Rimalower: How funny, I would have thought your favorite would be Love Goddess because it felt very thighs and whispers to me.

[45:37] Daniel Nolen: Oh, well, I don't even know. Like, I just mean like the title. Like I thought Working on My Last Nerve was like a hilarious title.

[45:42] Ben Rimalower: Um, yeah, it is a great title. But yes, but like Love Goddess, I was like, oh my god, this is like so from Thies and Whispers.

[45:49] Daniel Nolen: Yes, very that, very that.

[45:51] Ben Rimalower: Um, I also love, uh, other guest stars. Uh, oh well, Bruce Valanche makes like a one-time appearance, and then, uh, Julie Hagerty as Pammy Dunbar.

[46:04] Daniel Nolen: I can't read my writing.

[46:05] Ben Rimalower: Pammy Dunbar, hysterical. I'm always happy to see Julie Hagerty. I mean, speaking of, I mean, she's someone I grew up with, I'm sure we all did as iconic in airplane.

[46:14] Daniel Nolen: Airplane.

[46:15] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[46:16] Daniel Nolen: What was she on the other day?

[46:18] Ben Rimalower: The other day, what was she in that I watched recently?

[46:21] Daniel Nolen: Um, oh, um, Marriage Story with, uh, Scar Joe.

[46:28] Ben Rimalower: She was like, totally so good. Happy to see that. Um, I mean, there I wrote down so many just like crazy comedy details from this that are just like when she says it was handmade by orthodox Jews in the Amazon.

[46:42] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, so good.

[46:44] Ben Rimalower: Um, I bet he's getting Liza's Oscar.

[46:47] Daniel Nolen: That's totally the salmon patties from a vending machine.

[46:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, you got sick. Um, she has a voice like chicken fat, like schmaltz.

[46:59] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god though.

[47:00] Ben Rimalower: Um, Patty Austin as the gospel singer was thrilling.

[47:04] Daniel Nolen: Um, do you recognize? Do you know her from stuff?

[47:08] Ben Rimalower: No.

[47:08] Daniel Nolen: She's like, um, she's like a, I guess like an R&B singer like from the 80s. Like she had, she had that song, like that duet with like, is it Michael McDonald? I think.

[47:19] Ben Rimalower: It's like, on my.

[47:22] Daniel Nolen: I always would get annoyed in karaoke in the 90s because I would want to sing the lame big song, and it would be that. Um, there's another one she had that was also really big, but also she was like a jingle singer. Like she's the one that like goes like, bye, man. Do you remember that?

[47:36] Ben Rimalower: Wow. That's a, that's a big credit.

[47:40] Daniel Nolen: Well, it's a bit she's a big star. I mean, it's kind of crazy that she's in this in that role. Um, oh, I also I made a note to ask you when Donna Pescow plays her obsessed fan.

[47:52] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[47:53] Daniel Nolen: Do you know her from anything?

[47:55] Ben Rimalower: No, but which one, which one was she?

[47:58] Daniel Nolen: Was she the bus driver?

[48:00] Ben Rimalower: Um, God, no, I can't remember. I was too busy writing damn notes.

[48:05] Daniel Nolen: Oh, I can't remember which fan she played, but I did love there was that, uh, one who said she was a bus driver, and I love it.

[48:12] Ben Rimalower: I think that's her.

[48:14] Daniel Nolen: So she's like, um, like I guess she had this show in the 70s called Angie, where Doris Roberts played her mother. It was like a sitcom.

[48:22] Ben Rimalower: Love.

[48:24] Daniel Nolen: That was, there was reruns of that when I was growing up, and then in the night when I was growing up in the 80s, we'd watch reruns of Angie from the 70s. But then in the 90s, she was the mom on Out of This World about that girl with like the not out of this world.

[48:38] Ben Rimalower: Is that what I mean? Does that ring a bell for you?

[48:40] Daniel Nolen: Out of this world?

[48:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, out of this world. And like her teenage daughter was mostly the focus, and she had like magic like powers, or she was an alien or something.

[48:50] Daniel Nolen: And Doris Roberts played Angie, played Donna Pescow's mom again.

[48:55] Ben Rimalower: Oh, and I think Donna Pescow is the woman in Saturday Night Fever.

[49:01] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yes, yes.

[49:02] Ben Rimalower: I, I just saw that on her credits.

[49:04] Daniel Nolen: Yes, that's right.

[49:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I should have started with that. It just shows how I'm a child of the 80s and not the 70s.

[49:09] Daniel Nolen: Ha.

[49:10] Ben Rimalower: But I love this fan moment. There's Lori the school bus driver, and then there's Doris, who thinks she's seeing Liza, but she's not.

[49:17] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god, that would be crazy. It felt so much like that bit before Barbara Streisand, the concert where they're interviewing all the fans who have come from like miles around to see Barbara.

[49:26] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[49:27] Daniel Nolen: But Barbara didn't include the final edit where somebody thought she was Liza.

[49:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[49:33] Daniel Nolen: She cut that part.

[49:35] Ben Rimalower: Um, I, uh, oh my god, I can't believe it's taken us this long to say this. This is like the most me slash us, but like mostly me thing that ever happened.

[49:44] Daniel Nolen: Are you talking about the chart of divas?

[49:46] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[49:47] Daniel Nolen: I wrote that down too.

[49:48] Ben Rimalower: The seating chart for divas in heaven.

[49:52] Daniel Nolen: Yes, Anthony. I was like, I made a note of that too. I was like, this is something that we would do on the pod.

[49:57] Ben Rimalower: I mean, this, we actually need to start doing it as a homage to Jackie's's Back, you know, and like literally. Um, like it's basically my diva ranking.

[50:09] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean, it could be, I mean, I guess if it's in heaven, it's all dead divas, but like I feel like it should be like a seating chart of like a dinner party or like, but it wasn't, it wasn't a, but it was God on top, and then there was just levels down, and there was two people at each level.

[50:26] Ben Rimalower: It's so like Dante.

[50:28] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[50:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, that's hilarious. Yeah, we have to figure out something to do with this because I mean, Anthony really nailed it. The other thing I really want to steal from this is the, um, when Antoundra takes over as her manager and she negotiates the time. And they're like, like you have to get out of here in five minutes, make it seven, and we have a deal.

[50:36] Daniel Nolen: So good.

[50:36] Ben Rimalower: I really want to start doing that. Um, I have to say, okay, I love the ending of the way this movie ends so fucking much. Like it, I tend to get like all like feel a certain type of way, certain type of way about like contrived things in plots, you know?

[51:11] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[51:12] Ben Rimalower: And, um, and this movie plays like the kind of movie where you can expect lots of those kind of contrived things to happen. But I think like her winding up doing the concert on like the fire exit at the back of the theater is so organic and such the perfect ending. That's when I really started thinking this could be adapted to be like a real piece because this actually does like have a really powerful, like perfect button to it. And not to mention it's so Sunset Boulevard on that staircase.

[51:42] Daniel Nolen: It's like, yeah, that's so true.

[51:45] Ben Rimalower: I'm just like, I, I like was so happy and satisfied at the end. It's also very The Comeback at the end of season one, you know, where she exits and there's all those people like applauding for her and asking for her autograph, and she feels like a star.

[52:00] Daniel Nolen: Oh, totally, totally.

[52:03] Ben Rimalower: Um, and that's, you know, like we said, it's really a story about Showbiz's like stick with it-ness, which is very, uh, Norma Desmond Sunset Boulevard.

[52:12] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, it's a funny, that's a funny spin on Sunset, but you're right.

[52:15] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I mean, I was thinking several times and this was like, I was like, I want to see Jenifer Lewis as Dolly, obvi, but I also would love to see Jennifer as, uh, Norma Desmond.

[52:25] Daniel Nolen: Totally, totally.

[52:27] Ben Rimalower: Um, then I love, I love at the end when it gives all the, um, uh, the little, you know, so and so is doing this, so and so is doing this, and then it says, Jackie's is currently doing her nails.

[52:41] Daniel Nolen: Well, just the, just the tragedy of show business.

[52:44] Ben Rimalower: But, um, yeah, I mean, I have to say, I'm, I mean, you suggested this, and I'm so grateful because now I have this under my belt in like my diva pop culture library of knowledge, and I feel like I am, I have been changed before.

[53:03] Ben Rimalower: Me too. I mean, I happen to have watched this a couple years ago, but I feel like now I'm really like, I'm like not letting this go, you know.

[53:17] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah.

[53:17] Ben Rimalower: And it's such a good, not lesson, but it's so fascinating because this is something that is so original. You know, this now it's been done so much, but back in the late 90s, the idea of like this mockumentary about a star and then using all of these other huge real stars to fill in the cast and have these cameos, it's something that takes so much creativity and work, but also commitment from all these people, you know. The fact that Dolly Parton, Bette Midler, Liza were all like, sure, we'll do it.

[53:54] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[53:59] Ben Rimalower: And I mean, that's something that I feel like now we're seeing a little bit more of with the quarantine stuff, all these celebrities kind of banding together to do these videos for charity or fundraising. The fact that this was like a Lifetime TV movie, and all of these huge A-list stars kind of banded together to create this like comedic fluff, but ultimately like really fun and inspiring piece was, I don't know, it's just really fascinating to look at from like a research pop culture standpoint.

[54:29] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[54:29] Ben Rimalower: It's so is. I mean, when you have the celebrities doing cameos as themselves, it makes the whole thing seem real. I mean, literally, when I was, you know, 23 and this came out, like I thought it was a true story about someone I'd never heard of, you know.

[54:44] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[54:44] Ben Rimalower: So did Liza.

[54:46] Daniel Nolen: So Liza, she still thinks that.

[54:48] Ben Rimalower: Um, and it's also like, in a way, it's kind of what it's about, you know, the fact that like the celebrities conferring realness upon it, like has so much power and value to us. Um, when in fact the celebrities are on some level they're the least real thing, you know.

[55:11] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, but we, but we, but they're most real to us as an audience or as a fan.

[55:18] Ben Rimalower: And um, and but also there's like this meta level that you're like if Bette Midler and Dolly Parton and Whoopi Goldberg were willing to give their time to the, you know, they didn't get paid two million dollars by Lifetime TV to make this.

[55:32] Daniel Nolen: Exactly.

[55:33] Ben Rimalower: So clearly they think Jenifer Lewis is so fabulous and important that they are on board whatever she's doing, you know.

[55:41] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[55:42] Ben Rimalower: Oh, and we have to mention, I mean, Jennifer obviously was one of the original backup dancers for Bette back in the day. So they obviously had a previous relationship, so Bette loved her.

[55:54] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, talk about how people maintain their relationship with Bette. Obviously, she and Jenifer Lewis, I think it was like in the early 80s, maybe when she was a harlot.

[56:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and I mean, you know, it's no secret that Bette is sometimes a little difficult and a little bit of a diva. So the fact that these two star actresses have maintained a friendship says a lot about their professionalism.

[56:17] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[56:18] Ben Rimalower: But you know, it's also about defined roles. I mean, I think it's like, you know, Bette was already a big star, and Jenifer Lewis was not famous yet. And Jennifer Lewis played a very, you know, she was literally a backup singer, backup dancer to Bette. And so everybody knew what their role was, you know.

[56:37] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, that's a good point.

[56:38] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I think they'll, you know, when something is really defined and the boundaries are really clear, that's when you're less likely to have issues, you know. I mean, some people are just a hot mess and they can't function in any context. But I think like more generally speaking, like it's like the gray areas where people get like friction.

[56:57] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[56:58] Ben Rimalower: Well, um, this was uh very I'm very happy that we dove into this because it really it was a bright spot and it cheered me up in my sadness being home from Fire Island and back in like Manhattan and I know we should tell the listeners we, um, I mean I guess if some of them have watched our live stream, they know, but um we last week we were in Fire Island. We did not, I've had to tell so many people, mostly on the apps, that I did not partake in any of the um tomfoolery that a lot of people.

[57:30] Daniel Nolen: Yes, as we talked about um on the live stream too, you know.

[57:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[57:35] Daniel Nolen: Bears repeating.

[57:35] Ben Rimalower: We're shut up in the house watching Marilyn May and Bernadette Peters on YouTube. And not for nothing, COVID aside, there was no way that you and I would have been at a rave in the meat rack at any other time either. I mean, that is not my thing on, yeah, the healthiest of days, but like anyway, but um, so you know, we had a fabulous time out on the beach and um on Fire Island, and so coming back this past weekend was difficult, but this definitely brought a bright spot to my life that was much needed.

[58:15] Daniel Nolen: And um I will say the other bright spot I've had um the last few days adjusting to being back from Fire Island was that I got HBO Max.

[58:25] Ben Rimalower: Um, I need how is that?

[58:28] Daniel Nolen: I'm so into it. So well, I was a huge fan of the series Search Party. Um, I think we've talked about it, and um, uh John Early and Jeffrey Self, Friends of the Pod are on it. Um and uh but on the so the season three is now produced by HBO Max. It had been on TBS in the past. Um, and I was so excited to watch season three, and so I should watch I binged it the other day. It was so fantastic, and our most recent guest, Cole Scola has a role in the new season too.

[59:01] Ben Rimalower: Really?

[59:01] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, and fabulous. Um, and it's so good. I mean, it's I just this show is so fantastic. And past guest Drew Drogi, Drew Drogie and Sam Pancake, Friend of the Pod, Sam Pancake so good on it.

[59:14] Ben Rimalower: That's so we have to get on the pod.

[59:16] Daniel Nolen: Yes, we do. The scene with Drew and Sam and Jeffrey and John is so freaking hilarious. It is they are all four such geniuses, and they're so complimentary to each other, and it's a really great scene. Um, and anyway, the whole series, everybody should watch Search Party. Um, the other thing I binged on um HBO Max, I didn't even know about this, but there's a three episode docuseries um called Expecting Amy chronicling Amy Schumer's pregnancy.

[59:48] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yes, I have to watch this.

[59:49] Daniel Nolen: It's so enjoyable. And another podcast guest is in it, of course, Bridget Everett. Um actually John Early's in it too. He was um, I guess he performed Amy Schumer's wedding.

[1:00:01] Ben Rimalower: I didn't even know that.

[1:00:01] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I knew that Bridget sang at it, but he's like the officiant. Um, anyway, but it's a great series. I laughed and cried and cheered.

[1:00:11] Ben Rimalower: I have to watch that because I love Amy and Bridget's podcast on Spotify.

[1:00:16] Daniel Nolen: And um, I feel like maybe it was filmed at the same time because a lot of the podcasts, you know, it's like Amy like throwing up on the.

[1:00:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:00:25] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, no, they show a lot of the scenes are uh Amy and Bridget and the other um pod hosts and guests. Yeah, but they filmed it in Amy's apartment, which by the way is the ultimate real estate porn. You know that I'm obsessed right now. My dream, I've decided my dream place to live in New York would be a fabulous apartment on Riverside Drive overlooking the Hudson. Um and uh Amy has like the ultimate, like, you know, ranch house in the sky uh mansion on top of an apartment building penthouse on Riverside Drive, and it's so fun to watch.

[1:00:46] Ben Rimalower: Well, the good news is that people are like rapidly leaving the city, so who knows?

[1:01:06] Daniel Nolen: Maybe it's gonna go to think.

[1:01:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I don't think it'd be my range. Um this morning I watched uh the best movie, I think my favorite movie of 2020.

[1:01:15] Daniel Nolen: What is it?

[1:01:16] Ben Rimalower: Twenty twenty.

[1:01:16] Daniel Nolen: 2020.

[1:01:16] Ben Rimalower: And um, uh on Hulu, that new movie Palm Springs with um, uh my boyfriend, my husband, um, what's his name? Uh uh uh uh I cannot believe I can't think of it. Uh with Saturday Night Live uh star uh Andy Samberg.

[1:01:37] Daniel Nolen: Uh Palm Springs, it's it's kind of like a Groundhog Day-esque spot.

[1:01:42] Ben Rimalower: We're like You're like weirdly all about Palm Springs right now.

[1:01:46] Daniel Nolen: Oh, totally. Like I'm after watching it especially, I'm like trying to find a way to get there. Although I've heard it's like really hot in the summer.

[1:01:54] Ben Rimalower: You don't want to go to Palm Springs, but you although it's very cheap. But you were you were saying last week that you want to go to Palm Springs.

[1:01:59] Daniel Nolen: Yes, because I've never been.

[1:02:01] Ben Rimalower: But you haven't been to lots of places. What made Palm Springs your focus?

[1:02:05] Daniel Nolen: Well, because I love just the style of it all and just the um, I mean that aesthetic is so pleasing to me.

[1:02:13] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I love Palm Springs.

[1:02:14] Daniel Nolen: I like there, but yeah.

[1:02:16] Ben Rimalower: I mean, the art direction in this movie is like, I mean, talk about real estate porn. I mean, the house, the pools, all the decor, the plants, the outfits, the desert. I mean, it's so um, it just captures what I imagine Palm Springs is like so very well. But it's also the movie, it's um, you know, every year there's one movie that really stands out for me above all the rest because of its originality, its heart, it's uh oh my god, I'm gonna watch this tonight.

[1:02:47] Daniel Nolen: Most of the time it's like a smaller budget movie. Like last year for me, that movie was Can You Ever Forgive Me? Um, the year before that, I loved that movie, The Florida Project.

[1:02:56] Ben Rimalower: Um what is that?

[1:02:59] Daniel Nolen: It's fabulous. You have to go see it.

[1:03:00] Ben Rimalower: It's um The Florida Project. It was by the guy who did that movie Tangerine.

[1:03:05] Daniel Nolen: Oh, I love Tangerine.

[1:03:06] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god. I watched that like five times.

[1:03:08] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:03:09] Ben Rimalower: The Florida Project is even better.

[1:03:11] Daniel Nolen: And okay, tonight I'm watching The Florida Project and Palm Springs. I'm so excited.

[1:03:15] Ben Rimalower: Palm Springs is my favorite movie of the year so far. And even though it's been like a weird year, um, it's so nice that we have these really brilliant films being available to us on streaming. And Sandberg is like my new number one crush, by the way.

[1:03:31] Daniel Nolen: He's amazing and so hot.

[1:03:33] Ben Rimalower: Alright. So everybody watch Jackie's's Back. You can find it on YouTube, and it is available in the Roven Records Corn streams playlist. And you should also get HBO Max and watch Expecting Amy and Search Party Season Three or start from the beginning. And you should also watch Palm Springs and fuck me.

[1:03:52] Daniel Nolen: The Florida Project.

[1:03:54] Ben Rimalower: Is that what it's called?

[1:03:54] Daniel Nolen: The Florida Project, yeah.

[1:03:55] Ben Rimalower: Florida Project. Um, and um, we'll be back with tune in to our live stream on Tuesday and Thursday on Broadway Podcast Network YouTube and Broadway World Facebook page.

[1:04:10] Daniel Nolen: Tuesday, Thursday, April, August, time has everything.

[1:04:14] Ben Rimalower: Sorry. Time was everything. Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. I totally buried the lead. I can't believe I didn't tell you this at the top of the pod. I have been recognized now twice on Grindr because of our live stream.

[1:04:29] Daniel Nolen: Shut up.

[1:04:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, people like someone slid into my um, not even my DMs, he just slid in on Grindr uh yesterday and was like, I'll be wearing ribbons down my back this summer. And I was like, oh, good for you. I was like, how did you know a Hello Dolly reference was the way to my heart? And he was like, Oh, I've watched you on Tuesday, Thursday. And I was like, Oh, yes. So, you know, if anything, if anything, the um, the live stream is has maybe getting me a date in the future.

[1:04:59] Daniel Nolen: Alright, so so Daniel's getting laid, and um, I'm not getting laid because I'm I'm not leaving the house. But well, you're going to get laid.

[1:05:05] Ben Rimalower: And I'm planting the seeds, so to speak. So keep keep hope alive for Daniel and tune in on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Alright. Bye, y'all.

[1:05:20] Daniel Nolen: Thanks for listening to Ben Rimalower's Broken Records on Broadway World. For more episodes, visit Broadway World, iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever podcasts do be. And be sure to check out our new twice weekly live stream video chat. Tuesday, Thursday, April, August.

[1:05:36] Ben Rimalower: This episode was edited by me, Daniel Nolen. Thanks to Emmy winning composer and lyricist Lance Horn for the Broken Records theme song. Follow us both, Ben Rimalower and Daniel Nolen on all y'all's socials. That's Ben Rimalower. B-E-N R-I-M-A-L-O-W-E-R. And that's Nolan with an E, not Nolan with an A. Because Nolan with an A is an A.