This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Ben Rimalower: Broken records, the albums you wouldn't shut up about.

[0:06] Daniel Nolen: Broken records.

[0:07] Ben Rimalower: The music our guests can't live without like Judy, Barbara, Liza, Bette, Betty, Audra, Bernadette.

[0:14] Daniel Nolen: We broadcast this podcast with hopes that someday we might get Patti LuPone.

[0:25] Ben Rimalower: Broken wreck, broken wreck, broken wreck, broken wreck, broken wreck.

[0:33] Ben Rimalower: Welcome to Ben Rimalower's Broken Records on Broadway World Broadway Podcast Network, and now Broadway on Demand.

[0:40] Ben Rimalower: I'm Ben Rimalower, and I'm here virtually recording this episode with, as usual, the loveliest co-host on God's Green Earth, Daniel Nolen.

[0:52] Daniel Nolen: Thank you.

[0:53] Daniel Nolen: Hey y'all.

[0:54] Daniel Nolen: So happy to be here.

[0:55] Ben Rimalower: We have a very, very, very special guest today.

[0:59] Daniel Nolen: Yes, we do.

[1:00] Ben Rimalower: You all know him from his infamous, notorious Instagram account, @dublin_zoetrope, where he has made minced meat of Glenn Close.

[1:15] Ben Rimalower: And um, his name is Mark, and we think he is so brilliant, and we know you do too, and we are so happy to have him today to corn stream with us.

[1:28] Ben Rimalower: Fuck me, I forgot the name, the amazing HBO documentary about Debbie Reynolds and Carrie Fisher, something something bright lights.

[1:35] Daniel Nolen: It's just called Bright Lights.

[1:36] Ben Rimalower: Bright Lights.

[1:37] Ben Rimalower: Please say hello, Mark.

[1:40] Mark: Well, thank you very much for having me on.

[1:43] Mark: Uh your listeners don't know who I am at all.

[1:46] Daniel Nolen: They are all the fucking fan.

[1:48] Daniel Nolen: Are you crazy?

[1:49] Daniel Nolen: I guarantee you every one of our listeners knows uh Dublin Zoetrope.

[1:53] Mark: Yes, you you have way more followers than we do.

[1:56] Mark: I know, but they're not really real ones.

[1:58] Mark: I mean, they're mostly sort of, you know, teenage girls in the Midwest, I think.

[2:01] Daniel Nolen: And they sort of I don't know if that's the case.

[2:06] Mark: Um, I feel like I feel like your fans are our fans, and then you have other fans who don't like us.

[2:13] Daniel Nolen: Oh, right.

[2:14] Daniel Nolen: That's very true.

[2:15] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[2:15] Mark: Well, I just, you know, thank you for having me on, and I must excuse myself to your guests and say it was a lean week and you had nobody else to ask.

[2:23] Mark: And um, you're you are choice.

[2:28] Daniel Nolen: I cannot even get into this humility from you.

[2:30] Daniel Nolen: I hope that it's I hope that it's false.

[2:33] Daniel Nolen: I hope that deep down inside you know, you know how brilliant and fabulous you are.

[2:37] Mark: Oh, thank you.

[2:38] Mark: Everybody that I know adores you.

[2:40] Daniel Nolen: Um, I'm just so tickled.

[2:42] Daniel Nolen: I feel like we have like a real exclusive here because um I know you said something on Instagram about you know being open to doing interviews and podcasts, but like, have you done any others?

[2:52] Mark: Like, are we the first one?

[2:54] Mark: Well, more or less, because I did do a test one with these two, Fetelgays, in sort of in Hashtag Fetelgays.

[3:03] Mark: Spelled the British way, which is uh it's what is it, F-O-O.

[3:09] Mark: Love.

[3:11] Mark: Well, I did do a test one with them and sort of uh recorded, and they said my accent was too hard for their listeners to understand.

[3:18] Daniel Nolen: What?

[3:19] Daniel Nolen: I don't think that's true.

[3:20] Daniel Nolen: I mean, maybe I think they just didn't like you, and they used the accent as the excuse because your accent is very easy to understand, and I have bad hearing.

[3:29] Mark: Yeah, I was expecting it to be way more intense, but it's just slight.

[3:32] Mark: Yeah, well and more than that, I mean, I didn't want to go on podcasts if people thought I was some hick shouting into a tin can with string.

[3:39] Mark: And really the stuff the sound quality is probably so poor, that's how we what people think I am doing.

[3:44] Mark: But um, you know, you know, I think especially nowadays in COVID times, people are not so hung up on sound quality.

[3:52] Daniel Nolen: I mean, we did our first few episodes like in a recording studio with an engineer, and then, you know, eventually we were just like going over to people's houses with like our $30 Amazon mics, and like and now, you know, we do it on a computer.

[4:06] Daniel Nolen: Some of our guests don't have any kind of a microphone device attached.

[4:10] Daniel Nolen: And it's fine, it's all about the content, you know.

[4:13] Mark: I mean, it's not like a audiophiliac experience.

[4:16] Mark: I know I found you're sort of drawing the ASMR crowd or something, and I was going to let them all down.

[4:22] Daniel Nolen: No, definitely not our crowd.

[4:25] Mark: Oh my god, you're just so smart, you know.

[4:28] Mark: Your references are always just so specific and so rich and so perfect and hilarious and witty, and I mean I'm just honestly I'm still shocked.

[4:38] Mark: And now that I saw you in that little insta video that you posted, um, and now that I'm hearing your voice, I understand that I think you told me you're 24.

[4:47] Mark: Is that right?

[4:48] Mark: Well well, that's not correct, but I'll go with that.

[4:51] Daniel Nolen: Well, or so in your twenties, right?

[4:54] Daniel Nolen: I mean, when I when I first started following you, I was convinced you were like me in my mid sixties, at least.

[5:03] Mark: No, I d I think people sort of either think I'm some sort of you know, 16 year old um tragic gay somewhere, or else I'm some elderly queen sort of whining about Glenn Close.

[5:12] Mark: But uh no, I'm I'm in my twenties, yes.

[5:15] Daniel Nolen: Yes, I assumed the latter.

[5:16] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I really thought you were gonna be like much older.

[5:19] Mark: Yeah.

[5:19] Mark: But I mean, it just speaks to why you are so successful and why you're so brilliant and well loved on Instagram is because you have the tech savvy and kind of the um, you know, you have your finger on the pulse of what's trending and what's popular in like the zeitgeist as like a young person, but then you have this aesthetic and this deep, deep knowledge of um, you know, pop culture, much of it which has to do with you know, older, older movies and films and Hollywood and and But not so old.

[5:51] Mark: I mean, you know, I I'm really turned off.

[5:53] Mark: I mean, just when uh we were waiting for you to join the call, Daniel and I were talking about how he loves Gentlemen Prefer Blondes and he just rewatched it.

[6:00] Mark: And I was saying that I love Marilyn, but I fucking hate those that movie and movies like that.

[6:06] Mark: Most old movies are such a turnoff to me.

[6:09] Mark: It's only like the very, very, very, very, very, you know, cream of the crop, the Sunset Boulevards and the All About Eves that I can really enjoy.

[6:17] Mark: And I I always feel everything that you reference is like right in the sweet spot of everything I love.

[6:25] Daniel Nolen: But you but yet you do talk about like old like uh Hollywood actresses and stuff like that.

[6:31] Daniel Nolen: So I guess my point is you are such a great blend of both worlds, and I think that's why a lot of these Instagays, especially are so drawn to you and your your work.

[6:41] Mark: Yeah.

[6:41] Mark: Well, I don't think it's work.

[6:43] Mark: And uh I mean, let's say that there are Riverdale fan accounts that have, you know, 20 times as many followers as I do.

[6:50] Daniel Nolen: But uh But you're not a fan account.

[6:52] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I was actually shocked.

[6:53] Daniel Nolen: There was that great story on you.

[6:55] Mark: Now I can't remember what publication was.

[6:56] Mark: Oh, it was in W magazine.

[6:59] Daniel Nolen: W Magazine, yeah, free and everyone should read it.

[7:03] Mark: Well, I don't because the person makes terrible grammar errors that wrote it.

[7:06] Mark: And I did write.

[7:07] Daniel Nolen: Well, that's 2020.

[7:09] Mark: They all fucking do that nowadays.

[7:10] Mark: And even the New York Times.

[7:12] Mark: Well, first of all, they had me, they spelled Dublin's Ootrope wrong.

[7:16] Mark: And then I had to write them about four times to change it.

[7:18] Mark: I feel like Barbara ringing up um Tim Cook to sort of change her name on the board.

[7:24] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god.

[7:26] Mark: And then of course they changed that, but they left the grammar mistake.

[7:30] Mark: So I don't want to get that person in trouble that wrote it.

[7:32] Daniel Nolen: Well, whatever.

[7:33] Daniel Nolen: It was a good article.

[7:34] Mark: Content, content.

[7:35] Mark: But the thing is that the thing about the article made that it made me realize was of course you're a Glenn Close fan.

[7:42] Mark: And I'm bringing this up not to have some fight about Glenn Close, but to say that it's so wrong to refer to you in any way along the lines of like a fan account, because even with Glenn, whom you love, you're so um merciless to her, you know.

[7:58] Mark: Well, and um I aspire to that.

[8:01] Mark: I mean, you know, I love me some Patty, but I and I I pride myself on being able to laugh at Patty a lot of the time.

[8:08] Mark: But I don't think I'm as free with Patty as you are with Glenn.

[8:13] Daniel Nolen: I know, and I really I mean I'm not sure if Glenn does listen to this podcast, but if she does not, she does not, I guarantee.

[8:21] Mark: I mean, I I feel so guilty.

[8:23] Mark: I mean, that poor woman, because I'm not talking about her at all.

[8:25] Mark: I'm really talking about myself, you know.

[8:28] Mark: And there's just something about Glenn that kind of really strikes me as bitter gay man who couldn't make it in musical theater.

[8:34] Mark: So I sort of I sort of use her as the conduit for all my sort of um bitterness, and I'm really not talking about Glenn Close, who's a wonderful woman, and I love that she has her own Instagram that's just so wholesome and pure.

[8:47] Daniel Nolen: Which is yeah, fabulous.

[8:49] Mark: I know but no, that's I think that's so that's such a good point to make.

[8:53] Mark: Because I mean, you know, like Ben was talking about with Patty.

[8:56] Mark: I mean, I feel like uh, you know, I worship Barbra Streisand so much, but like I also hate her so much because of like the qualities that she possesses that I despise in myself and others.

[9:09] Mark: So, like, I mean, I think that's part of, you know, kind of the way we choose these ladies to worship and and to idolize.

[9:17] Mark: It's like we we love them and we hate them, and and it's because, like you're saying, they're that conduit through which um But it's so rich and layered with you and Glenn because it's like it it you know what you say is accurate, you know, and I I can see that throughout your posts about a bitter gay man who failed in musical theater, you know.

[9:36] Mark: And that's such a perfect lens for Glenn Close because not only does it highlight her as the bitter loser, it also is also fucking triumphant because who can you compare her to in musical theater who has more talent than she does for musical theater, Bernadette Peters, Patti LuPone, etc.

[9:51] Mark: They would all give their left and right tit to be Glenn Close.

[9:57] Mark: You know, I mean, it's like it there's she's still resplendent.

[10:02] Mark: You know, Glenn Close, haha, fuck you, you're no Meryl Streep, but she's number two.

[10:07] Mark: It's like there's something so regal about Glenn Close, despite the like so-called bitterness.

[10:13] Mark: And in a way, as much as you shit on her, you point that out.

[10:17] Mark: Because to even talk about her in the context of musical theater, I mean, she's almost more in common musical theater-wise, with Barbra Streisand and Liza Minnelli and Bette Midler, who were too sick too, they just flew the coop.

[10:29] Mark: You know, musical theater is in their dust.

[10:32] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, and it's also like Glenn is such a huge star and a celeb.

[10:36] Daniel Nolen: It's like, you know, I think people like like Glenn and Barbra and Bette, it's like those people can stand up to this sort of um irreverent scrutiny and and you know behavior because it's not like there's a struggling actress who's trying to make it work.

[10:52] Daniel Nolen: You know, they're actually like they've already, you know, set their legacy in stone and and they can withstand that.

[10:59] Daniel Nolen: Now, Mark, uh correct me if I'm did you start this account after she lost the Oscar, or was am I just getting my timeline mixed up?

[11:11] Mark: Oh no, I started this account I'd say, you know, four or five years ago.

[11:14] Mark: I used to write a blog that was called uh Dublin's Ootrope that nobody read.

[11:19] Mark: It got sort of, you know, 10 hits per year.

[11:21] Mark: And the only people that read it were me, and you know, probably some child somewhere that kept refreshing the page.

[11:27] Mark: But um I uh went on Instagram then and used that name, and I was the great hit of Instagram, whereas the blog never got anywhere.

[11:35] Mark: And you know, so I've been doing it for I'd say easily three or four years, and it's only kind of maybe in the last year since that Oscar thing that really people have followed me, and I'm very grateful to those people that follow me.

[11:46] Mark: And I don't want to ascribe any importance at all to it because it is just sort of hurling abuse at these elderly actresses, but still it is great fun to do.

[11:57] Daniel Nolen: But it's also, I mean, it's not just uh abuse, it's like I mean, one of my favorites, I always think about it.

[12:03] Daniel Nolen: One of my favorite posts you ever did was The Ladies of the Hours trading cards.

[12:11] Dublin_Zoetrope: And it's just like it's just like really, really brilliant. And I mean, there's that one, and then there's there's so many others that I could that I could talk about, but that's always the one I always think about because just the idea of someone thinking of the women of the movie The Hours as trading cards is just like so delicious and something I would buy.

[12:34] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, I do think though The Hours really is the kind of cornerstone for sort of um basic gaze. It's sort of, you know, the gate, well, not the gateway drug, but it's the kind of um, it's the kind of uh, you know, the um uh, it's sort of uh, you know, the patient zero or something, you know, they all know The Hours, and I just thought I'd do it with that rather than you know, with some other. But anyway, I mean people get very sober. People get very uh passionate about The Hours and which one of the women is the best of them, and you know, it's very tiresome. I think I think you know it's quite obvious that Meryl is head and shoulders above the other two because Nicole has that fake nose and Julianne stands there.

So, you know, that's really the uh it's so funny. Um I actually have had this debate at many dinner parties, and most people say Julianne Moore. Julianne is so I think Julianne is so smart because she's always is so earnest. I don't know, she's always so broad, but the films that she does and the performances are earnest. And if you're broad in earnest material, I mean it's a it's a hat trick. I mean, you get away with it. And I do like Julianne, but again, you know, she's not a great favorite. I mean, if oh my god, I can't believe I'm talking about this. I mean, I honestly think I must be high or something. But um No, get it out, get it out. This is the place.

[13:57] Ben Rimalower: Yes. I thought we were talking about Carrie and Debbie today.

[14:00] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yes, well, anyway, well, it's a good two translation. I must say I must tell your listeners that um you sent me a whole ream of different films and uh concerts and things to choose from. And I said, Oh, well, first I said we better do somebody where the two of them are dead, because I thought, you know, it would be so unfair to you know, whoever uh but um because I do feel, you know, Carrie and Debbie's death uh three years or four years ago. I mean, it was, I think for gay people, it was the kind of Michael Jackson moment. I mean, people remember where they were.

[14:34] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah, yeah, yeah. When they heard that uh Carrie cried and then the next night where where Debbie had passed as well. So I was saying when you chose this, um, and honestly, when Daniel even put it on the list, I was very disappointed because um I watched it a couple of times when it first came out. Because I it came out like right after they died, right? Like it came out the Sunday after they died. They they had filmed it for I think Mother's Day or something. It was going to be like a Mother's Day special ones. Right, right. And they said, Oh, we'll shove it out because uh you know what happened. Well, so I watched it a couple of times because I was so obsessed. Uh I've always been obsessed with Carrie because there used to be a TV show on IFC in the nineties, I think, called Dinner for Five.

And it was hosted by John Favreau, and he always had um four different actors, writers, directors. Um, and they would just talk and eat dinner, and it was edited down to, you know, 45 minutes or whatever to go within the commercial breaks. And it was and Carrie was a very regular guest, always smoking. And um I was I'll the impression she made on me then, I mean, obviously she'd been a movie star to me and I'd already been a fan of um Postcards from the Edge, although I don't think I'd read it yet, but um, but just from the movie. But but the impression she made on me actually inspired me later when I w got sober. I I didn't I wasn't worried about not being interesting anymore because I knew that Carrie Fisher sober.

You didn't have to turn into like a sort of earnest basic gay just because you quit drinking and you know, whatever. So Carrie gave me that knowledge. But anyway, so I'd watched the movie like twice, the documentary when it first was on, and then I think I was dating this guy who wanted to see it, and we kept putting it on and either having sex or putting it on and falling asleep. So I watched like the first, you know, half an hour, like 10 times. And so the last fucking thing I wanted to do was re-watch it. I thought. And I have to say that when I turned it back on last night, almost from the first frame, I was just like, oh my god, I love them both so fucking much. This is the greatest thing I've ever seen. I'm so fucking excited to watch this.

[16:47] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, I think you know, I talked about it on so I just called Dublin's Ootrope so like so cold well. But I took like Audra's daughter. I say Audra's daughter if the people don't know who so cold so Coldwell was. But I mean, are they likely are they likely to know Audra, you know, if they don't know, well, I don't know. But anyway, but I uh talked about it a few weeks ago, and every sort of I mean, it's sort of like um I don't know who sent it to me, but they said it was the Grey Gardens of sort of the last 10 years. And I know that's that is a bit of an exaggeration. I mean, it is kind of hyperbole to say that. But I mean it's not it's not uh an outrageous comparison. I think, you know, there's about no. I mean, there are so many similarities, and I think the only difference is, you know, these ladies had much more money and and uh, you know, a social standing and you know, obviously like actual class, but like I mean, we can get into it, but like I mean, Debbie is definitely a little bit of a hoarder, you know, and some of these And so is Carrie, and so is Carrie, but the difference is they have like the resources. I mean, it's kind of like Barbara, you know, right? Um it's like hoarders with resources.

[17:56] Dublin_Zoetrope: I know, but I think you know, I know everyone always talks about Carrie's house that has, you know, sort of the Prozac tiles in the kitchen, but I actually think Debbie's house is sort of really chintzy, and it's you know, the pictures of June Allyson and Anne Blythe on the wall, the Maltese, the Maltese Falcon and the Ruby slippers on the mantlepiece. I mean, it's yeah, it's like the huge eight by ten of Cary Grant. But I mean, the thing is about that with Debbie, like so many like famous old people who have tons of money have like very out-of-date style in their homes. Well, I mean, look at Barbara. I mean, her taste is opposing.

[18:36] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, and Barbara, but Barbara's shit is new. I mean, Barbara buys that next week, you know. But I mean, there's a lot of old, old movie stars and just old rich people who haven't redecorated since the 70s. But it's also, I mean, Debbie is so obsessed with like Hollywood memorabilia. And you know, there's the scene at the auction where it's very hoarders. It's like there's always that moment in the episode of hoarders where the people are having second thoughts and they like decide they don't want to give this up. And that's what happens with Debbie and like the rat pack. It's actually more than hoarders. It's actually more because uh she's clearly holding on to something that is very uh real from her past, you know.

[19:16] Dublin_Zoetrope: Exactly. And I think it's so sad, really. I mean, when you think she sort of bankrupted herself several times over to open this museum that you know never got off the ground, and when you think now that you know that academy museum they want to open, I mean, and I think it's going to be the greatest sort of folly ever. And Debbie has, you know, had been trying to do that since you know, since the MGM auction in the 70s. I mean, I think it is, I know that the son uh Todd does say that, you know, seeing your mother disappointed. I think I think there is some kind of it is kind of sad. I mean, it of course it is funny, sort of thinking of her as this sort of um, you know, like Marlena Dietrich in her Paris apartment being eaten by Alsatians. But you know, there is something very endearing about it as well.

[19:59] Ben Rimalower: Uh on the other hand, I think.

[19:59] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah.

[19:59] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, and and Carrie even says, like, uh, my mother was a fan before she was ever a star.

[20:04] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[20:04] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah. And like when she gets the lifetime achievement award near the end, it's like you can tell that actually means so much to Debbie.

[20:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, as opposed to most huge stars, especially if they were born into fame, it's like, you know, it's just another day for them.

[20:17] Dublin_Zoetrope: But for Debbie, it's like this is she loves show business. She loves being a big thing.

[20:21] Ben Rimalower: Well, and also, as Carrie says, they did not throw awards at her.

[20:25] Dublin_Zoetrope: I know special. Right, yes, yes, yes.

[20:29] Dublin_Zoetrope: But I I want to know, dude, does anyone know? I should have looked it up, but how what was their financial status?

[20:35] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, of both of them, but especially Debbie at the end. I know when ever she died, it said sh because I looked this up, she had um a net worth of like 85 million.

[20:45] Ben Rimalower: Oh, okay.

[20:46] Dublin_Zoetrope: So she was great by the end.

[20:48] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, I know, but I mean, you when you hear about, I mean, have you ever seen the interview of the two of them on Oprah in about 2010, I think, or 2011? Um, where she is showing, you know, the Marilyn Monroe subway dress and uh, you know, Julie Andrews Sound of Music costume and that. And I mean, she practically, you know, she I think she had three auctions altogether to to sell. I mean, this huge collection she had, so it was, I mean, I suppose a nest, I mean, 85 million is a nice nest egg.

[21:15] Daniel Nolen: But um it's but is that Daniel, is that a real number, or is that like from one of those sites that says like celebrity net worth?

[21:21] Dublin_Zoetrope: Oh, they're always so wrong, those net worth sites. I have no idea. I just googled it and that was the answer that came up.

[21:27] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah, it's probably wrong.

[21:28] Dublin_Zoetrope: Um, so she buttons. She probably was a pauper basically, I imagine.

[21:33] Daniel Nolen: Well, she could have been.

[21:34] Dublin_Zoetrope: I mean, I really I was really I was wondering it too, because like, for example, um, like when she was playing the Mohegan Sun, I noticed all the empty seats in the house.

[21:42] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah.

[21:42] Dublin_Zoetrope: And I was like, although that was also a very big venue.

[21:46] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yes, and she did have a good crowd, it was just not nearly big enough for what the biggest. But I do know that at one point, I'm not sure when this was, but Debbie was going bankrupt, and that's why she had to sell a lot of these items.

[22:01] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, I mean, it is so sad when you think of so many stars. I mean, Mickey Rooney, for example, died a pauper basically and was, you know, looking for solicitations from the public to sort of uh fund the um but that but that was from an awful abusive wife. I mean, I don't think I think Debbie had good family with her, and and of course supported her own family when Carrie said they didn't deserve it, like the mother, who is such an interesting the grandmother.

[22:23] Dublin_Zoetrope: I mean, you know, yeah in uh in Postcards, I mean played by Mary Wicks. I mean, it's such a good brilliant, yeah.

[22:30] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[22:31] Dublin_Zoetrope: But well, and they interview Debbie Debbie's mom in this yeah documentary, and what is she says something like, I she all her brains are in her ankles or something like that.

[22:40] Ben Rimalower: I was I was like, what does this joke mean?

[22:43] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, I mean, the famous thing is that you know, she wanted to be a gym teacher. It's like you know, it's it's sort of like the legend, it was created with that. It's like Lana Turner walking into Schwab's drugstore. It's that Debbie was all Debbie wanted to be was a gym teacher, and you know, yet she was, you know, all the awful things that happened at MGM instead of you know being a gym teacher, and she would have been happy. And I think Billy Lord said that in an interview.

[23:07] Dublin_Zoetrope: Um to I don't know, Ellen or whoever. That I don't know. I mean, certainly she she was very talented and had her brains and her ankles, or whatever the the grandmother said, but well, uh but she also says um that uh she wishes she had Carrie's voice.

[23:24] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, that's I think such a uh such a such uh interesting uh part of that documentary because it kind of does explain the sort of relationship. Not not explain it, but you know, the fact that uh she wanted to be Carrie, she didn't want to be Debbie or Eddie, and that lovely scene where she sings um Bridge over Troubled Water as a kid.

[23:43] Dublin_Zoetrope: 15. Yeah, and married the man that wrote it and called it Bridge over Debbie's daughter. I mean, that scene is so powerful because Carrie's voice is really spectacular, and it's so unique. And I was thinking like she could have been like a huge singer, like she could have been like that. I was thinking this is very Lucy Arnaz.

[24:07] Dublin_Zoetrope: Um, I mean, I loved watching her, and I was impressed that she was doing that at 15. And she's such a great artist, and she put so much heart and depth into stuff that she did that no doubt had she pursued that, she would have had something to offer that was worthwhile. But I wasn't like, oh La Voce, you know.

[24:26] Dublin_Zoetrope: Oh, I was. I love I thought it was just so unique and like just rich and like the I mean, she was just so open and just like belty and luscious, and then like, and then even to hear her singing later in the show, like whenever she just sings like to Debbie in her like little croony voice. I was like, there's like shades of like Rosemary Clooney here. Like Carrie actually I think had a wood really wonderful voice. Obviously being the daughter of Eddie Fisher it makes sense. But like um speaking of Eddie Fisher's children's talent um let's just can we talk about Todd a little bit well what I love oh no sorry go ahead go go on Mark.

[25:03] Mark: No but I was going to say I love when I think I sort of get serious kind of Joey Luft vibes from Todd. And I sort of yeah I sort of expect him to say you know that he loves Shepherd's pie and the squares at the shapes that aren't squares. But um I love what I I think he became a born again Christian or something or some kind of yes that was my question. I got Jesus vibes from him. I I I trust you guys on that I saw the Bible quote outside the house and I was concocting a theory in my head that that was all Catherine Hickland because everything he talked about he just seemed to me like such a guy's guy and like even the way he talked about show business like if you're born into it and I was like first of all it pissed me off I hate anybody that is born into anything you know but like it seemed to me like he was much more excited about the God of show business of Debbie and Carrie with the Star Wars poster on his wall you know rather than I felt like maybe Jesus was the wife.

[26:02] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah maybe I don't know. I loved when they showed the little uh statue in the in the garden and it said the Fishers and the apostrophe was in the wrong place. It was oh my god obviously Carrie didn't take her red pen to that.

[26:14] Mark: No yeah. Um but yeah, speaking of that, I mean, I've heard these stories about like uh George Lucas or whoever in Star Wars like giving Carrie the scripts and like Carrie actually like punched it up back in the day when she was, you know, like uh twenty or whatever. And and that's something that is so apparent in this film, and we all know it, but just Carrie off the cuff even is just so smart, and she's just constantly just throwing out these one liners that are brilliant. And you know, like her b uh former babysitter says in that one scene, even at two, Carrie was the most interesting person I'd ever met.

[26:54] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah. And that's what I really took away. This viewing was how fucking smart Carrie is. And just those wheels are always turning, and she always is just, you know, giving giving you a one one liner that's so brilliant.

[27:11] Ben Rimalower: Totally. I um also I was thinking um that uh speaking of like with George Lucas, it was a little offensive to me when they I forgot about this, or maybe it didn't hit me the same way when it first came out. But when they were talking about the weight she had to lose for Star War for the new for this, you know, the final Star Wars that she made.

[27:30] Dublin_Zoetrope: 72. Hilarious. Another Carrie fucking brilliant moment. Um uh but like why? Why did she have to fucking lose weight to play sixty something Princess Leia?

[27:44] Mark: Yeah, I mean, that's uh I think that's that's really uh in a good point. You know, it's uh Hollywood and aging actresses and all that. Well, I mean that caused well, not a huge um scandal, but I mean, you know, it was a big thing uh when that Star Wars seventy two came out that it was kind of fat shaving or you know, older woman shaming, whatever the phrase is. And it kind of you just think, I mean, I mean, what's the point? I mean, Meryl would never get that in the month of Sundays.

[28:11] Dublin_Zoetrope: It must be sort of, you know, they think because these Star Wars fans are sort of more sub because I mean, all those recent ones are just totally, I mean, I uh oh, I don't know, I've lost my train of talk completely, sorry.

[28:24] Mark: I don't think that's fair about Meryl. I mean, you know, Meryl works very hard to be thin, and she never Carrie got fat at a certain point, you know. And Carrie carried a lot of weight for a long time. That Merrill, even at her, you know, Meryl has played the game to keep her body, you know, now in her 70s, maybe she's a little bit of a spread, but certainly nothing like Patty, you know. I mean, I I think, you know, Carrie, Carrie got chubby and they wouldn't they wouldn't let her make the movie. And I I and I think Carrie is also some like, you know, as we see in the Star Wars convention scene, Carrie was such a sex symbol back in the day. And all these, you know, guys grew up jerking off to her. And I mean, even me as a kid, like I watched all the Star Wars movies, and as a kid I was so obsessed with Princess Leia and the Legion King.

[29:12] Dublin_Zoetrope: Totally. And um, so I think that's also hard for audiences and Star Wars fans to kind of reconcile with is is the fact that Carrie's older now and she's no longer the sexy Princess Leia that they you know love so much.

[29:27] Ben Rimalower: Well, even me, I mean, I'm a hundred a Mackenzie six, let me tell you, you know. But I remember when I saw that last Star Wars movie that she was in, being like, oh my god, she looks so great. Oh, I'm so happy she's has long gray hair. I can't believe how much weight she lost. I never thought I'd get to see her so thin again. This is amazing. I mean, why did I fucking care? Why was I invested in Carrie's waist size? But I was, you know.

[29:56] Mark: Yeah. Well, so uh Mark. Mark, do you feel that way? Do you have? I mean, do you do you do you give a shit if you know Glenn Close gets fat or Julianne Moore loses weight or whatever?

[30:08] Mark: Well, I mean, we'd never hear the end of it if it was Julianne, but I don't really uh think about no, I don't mean that. I don't I but I mean that's the thing though. I mean, people praise these, I mean, I think nowadays, I mean, people just don't know what acting is, and they, you know, sort of see Olivia Coleman or somebody like that, and they think because they can cry on demand, it's the greatest performance ever. Um and these kind of transform like Olivia Coleman and the favorite, where she did gain, I think something like, you know, uh 15 pounds or whatever to play this uh I know I that's just the example I have it that came to mind. But no, I I really do not give a a fig about how people look. I mean, I mean, remember Elizabeth Taylor in the 70s? I mean, that was the best Liz, I think.

[30:50] Dublin_Zoetrope: The uh totally for sure.

[30:53] Mark: But anyway. Well, so Mark, I know you said that you have had quite a journey with Carrie because of, as you call it, the yental health aspect of it all, which I love. So do you know about that?

[31:06] Mark: Well, I mean, that's very immature now to say yental health. The other thing I say is depressica lang. And um and it it's so immature, and I'm sure there's probably some people reading that and think, who does this person think they are to say that? Because it I mean I mean, of course, I think Carrie did prove that you do have to have a sense of humor about it and that.

[31:26] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yes.

[31:27] Mark: But at this at the same time, I mean, of course you can't say anything nowadays, but uh still I I really shouldn't call it yental health because I I think I don't know, I probably anti-Semitic or something. But um uh no, I just think Carrie is someone that I mean, I'm not saying that mental illness nowadays is fashionable, but certainly Carrie must have been the first. I mean, that really I mean, I'm sure there are other ones, but uh, you know, Carrie sort of openness from you know what, 30 years ago when postcards came out. It it does it. I mean, you know, I'm sure all of us can really remember a time when she wasn't sort of open about that. And I just think it it is I think it is very heartening.

I mean, I'm sure there is, you know, some kind of element that thinks, oh, well, would she not just keep to herself? But I mean, I do think it does mean a lot to people, and certainly that is why as I said earlier on, when when they did die in in 2016, there was this connection where you know I don't think it would have been otherwise. I mean, I think that is what kind of pushed her beyond as talented and as wonderful as she was.

[32:29] Dublin_Zoetrope: But I you know, I I think um it it really was the the most salient sort of uh connection with the fans uh with Carrie anyway.

[32:38] Mark: Yeah, I mean she wrote a book called Shockaholic and another one called Wishful Drinking. And I mean, even though even though I don't think she was an alcoholic as such, but um it's a good title. But um, you know, it is uh, you know, and I even that's that HBO special she did of wishful drinking. I mean it's yeah, it's um but uh yeah sorry, I completely I'm the most disappointing guest ever.

[33:03] Ben Rimalower: I expect No, you're fabulous.

[33:04] Mark: No, I know. So, you know, it's a wonderful point you make because I I don't think that we have we're it's become so um de rigueur or however you pronounce that, you know, that the idea that people can be open about their substance abuse problems and their mental health stuff. I mean, you just hear it now, it's an excuse that people use anytime they get a DUI or anything, you know. But it actually, as you pointed out, was really groundbreaking for Carrie to take ownership of that. And like you said, for so many decades, the only way, you know, and certainly people, even I mean, I'm 44, to be honest, but um, but even at my age, I still cannot remember a time when that wasn't part of the story around her, you know.

[33:43] Dublin_Zoetrope: But it's interesting um watching this uh documentary because I think, you know, I was 12 or so when Postcards from the Edge came out. And I was I loved the movie right away, and I was very aware that um it was Carrie Fisher's book, and based on Carrie Fisher's book, and that it was about Carrie and Debbie, you know. And I think in my 12-year-old mind, and I have a feeling in a lot of people's minds, there was sort of this idea that Carrie had these problems and now she's cured, and now we move on with Hollywood, you know.

[34:17] Mark: And I think what's became true later in Carrie's openness in interviews and that show that I talked about, Jennifer Five, and of course, all of her subsequent books, and her one woman show on Broadway and on HBO Wishful Drinking, and very much in this documentary is that Carrie struggles, and we know now about the facts of her death. Her struggles were not something that were cured overnight in 1987 or whatever, but that were a persistent problem. And you know, and as you I mean, you said you don't know whether or not she's an alcoholic, and that's a good point to make too, because for me to relate to her as an alcoholic is actually very much a small piece of the pie. Because what you see in this documentary is that on in Carrie's life, if not every single day, then every single month, a very persistent, debilitating problem is that mental uh mental illness that she has.

[35:12] Dublin_Zoetrope: Um, I think even the the addiction side of it, I mean, when you think of like how many kinds of coke she drank and the shopping stuff, it just sort of I mean I I mean I meant strictly sort of alcohol. I mean, I know it was pills and that she liked, but um I do think she definitely was that sort of addictive personality that like she says about her father, and you know, when she says about caring for her father and that he didn't deserve to get that sort of care in the last year of his life, you know, someone has that kind of addictive personality, it does make them irresistible to people, even though they are sort of beleaguered with all these um problems. But um I think that's uh again the the appeal of her.

I mean, everything she did is just so kind of you know, that when she's touring her house, and it's just so when you think kind of like every little item, whether it's the poster that says child of divorce or the um picture of a Prozac, I mean she was buried in a Prozac urn.

[36:08] Mark: Um No, she was. It was like a China uh urn in the shape of a Prozac film. And so good. And that that she just kind of had hanging around the house. I mean, they didn't know what to put her in, and they remembered, oh, this is in the kitchen or something, and I think it was a cookie jar or I don't know, but you know, it it's just kind of uh well, and it's so the anti-Debbie, you know, Debbie's someone who always wanted to be in control, and you know, when they're walking uh into the ceremony at the end, Debbie's like, act like we're just talking, act like everything's fine.

[36:40] Dublin_Zoetrope: I mean, Debbie and you know, she wouldn't let the cameras in that one day when she was feeling bad. I mean, everything was always in its place. And Carrie was the opposite of that and rejected that. And, you know, she wanted a house that was the opposite of the one she grew up in, as she said, we grew up around, we didn't grow up with each other, we grew up around each other like trees. And um, so like Carrie was someone who was just not gonna bullshit, you know, but actually go to the opposite end of the spectrum and actually irreverently and comically address these issues head on, yeah, whether it was in her writing or in her choice of home decor. And um, I mean, there's so much we could talk about Carrie's house, but the one thing I want to mention is at the very beginning when it's taking you on the tour, and in her bathroom, there's a poster hanging of Debbie doing like a shampoo ad.

And not only is it hanging, but it's signed, and there's a message and a signature from Debbie, and it and it's signed mama, and then in parentheses, and then it says Debbie, and then in parentheses it says Reynolds, that is. Which I love, like to her own daughter, Debbie still signs Debbie Reynolds.

[37:51] Ben Rimalower: Well, that's because you were saying uh Daniel. Uh oh, is that a catchphrase? Reynolds said it. No, she always rang up and said, uh, hello, dude. This is your mother, Debbie. I mean, that was what she was known for.

[38:01] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Back to what you were just saying though, Daniel, about um the you know, Carrie's talking honestly about things versus the Debbie ethos of um ethos of you know, there's putting up the the smiley face for the camera and everything. Those were the two things for me that were actually I literally I mean, I never cry, but I cried watching this uh last night because I cried with Debbie watching when it became a strain for her to to put her best foot forward, you know, and never more than when it wasn't a strain. When she had that difficult interview that she cut short, and then as she walked out with her back to the camera and she did a little bit of a Chaplin bit on her way out, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, I mean it's like it's like what's you know, um both sides now. Um now it's just another show you leave them laughing when you go. You know, and Debbie did that. You know, she exited with style but on her terms. On her terms. And that but it was heartbreaking because you knew exactly how she was feeling and what was going on.

[39:01] Dublin_Zoetrope: And the the the parallel thing for me watching this rather not for me with so much emphasis. The parallel thing for me watching this with with Carrie was um when she was in bed in the middle of a um depressive episode. And and she you know she talked about the two sides of her personality what was it Roy and I forgot Roy and Pam Pam. And she was in a Pam moment and she was and she was lying in bed just with her head on the pillow and describing what you know what that's like and it was so naked and it was with zero pretension. And and even you know this idea of making the character names and all that I mean it you know it's it's a way of understanding things and it's funny as you describe her being irreverent and all that you know her her the way she uses humor to make an audience or a reader or you know a viewer uh really understand the nuance and you know what the experience of her humanity is you know and but in that moment we've already gotten the joke about Roy and Pam and now she's just as Pam and it's it's I mean it's really took my breath away.

And it, but it in a way it's the same thing as Debbie. I mean, that's I guess that's another thing about Grey Gardens, besides all the trappings of uh another way that this is like Grey Gardens, besides all the trappings of the funny eccentric thing about them and living together and you know, being sort of Hollywood being kind of finished with them or the patriarchy or whatever, the same way that it was with the Beals, but but also that way that they are uh so yin and yang and different, and they're but they're really two sides of the same coin, and we just see the the the there's a pain or something inside that's exactly alike.

[40:53] Dublin_Zoetrope: I mean it's truly it's it's a it's a story about how they deal with loss. Like I think, you know, uh you know, Debbie loses her husband, uh Eddie Fisher, and you know, you you see these this footage of her addressing reporters, and she's like just so like everything's okay, like, well, I guess we'll have to blah blah blah. And then um, but then the hoardings, you know, she starts hoarding or whatever. It's like you see her, how she deals with this. I'm so happy you said those together because it's what I was couldn't think of, but I think you answered my question from the beginning of like, what is she holding on to with the hoarding? I mean, yeah, it's like she doesn't that's like her memories, like she's like, these are my boys. And it's sad because of in fact, Hollywood fucked her over. I mean, the person that stole her husband, if you want to, you know, not to really exist on those terms, but literally her husband left her for Elizabeth Taylor.

[41:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, like the queen mother of Hollywood.

[41:48] Dublin_Zoetrope: And and and but that is what Debbie didn't let go of. Yeah, and then you know, Carrie, she lost her father. I mean, and if you really want to get down to it, uh we tell we joke about Carrie's Coca-Cola obsession, but like Eddie Fisher was the spokesperson for Coke back in the day.

[42:03] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, right.

[42:05] Dublin_Zoetrope: And so, like the fact that Carrie is literally like walking around with a can of Coke at all hours all the time, it's like so symbolic, and you know, her addiction and and just her, as she says, I I it would be so cool to get to the end of my personality. It's like she just constantly wants more, and she's she's doing something to uh deal with this loss of her father and and her childhood. What did you guys think about that scene on her father's sickbed?

[42:33] Daniel Nolen: Um I thought it was quite touching, actually. I mean, it was you know, it was uh as she said about her about Debbie's mother and about Eddie. I mean, they didn't deserve that kind of care and attention, but it was sort of making things right at the end of their lives, I suppose. It was sort of, you know, it was, I mean, Carrie always said that um Eddie would rock up to Wishful Drinking and would sort of be cured by show business by applause, and you know, was totally, totally senile at that point and thought everybody was Obama.

[43:04] Dublin_Zoetrope: But um uh it is that kind of I mean it is, you know, I don't know, I don't really want to say the well, it is the family business. I'm sure you know, butchers and uh candlestick makers feel the same way, but as Todd said at the beginning, you know, it does uh gel them, and it is I don't know, I I just found it very interesting. I mean, I I'm sure Eddie Fisher didn't know what was going on, and certainly Carrie straight in about the with a comment about you know, am I more beautiful than Elizabeth Taylor? I mean, you know, it it just shows how people have these kind of uh things that they're utterly fixated on, and you know, will bring them up at any cost.

[43:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and you know, they talk so much about it. Really is in this, I think, is sort of a character that's there, even though she's I mean, exactly. I mean, the scene where you know they're going through Debbie's closet and they find this moo moo from you know that belonged to Elizabeth and the second two.

[44:00] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yes, the other woman.

[44:01] Ben Rimalower: I mean, absolutely, and it's almost like in Rebecca when you know you never see that that's a I mean so exaggerated. But it is, I mean, she is that uh presence that you know, I don't know. I think I don't know whether that was intentional.

[44:15] Dublin_Zoetrope: I mean, I don't think it's so true though, yeah.

[44:18] Ben Rimalower: I don't really get a sense though that the people that made this documentary, I know they were obviously friend, I think friends of Carrie uh Fisher Stevens.

[44:24] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah, Fisher Stevens, yeah.

[44:26] Ben Rimalower: But it it isn't it isn't kind of, you know, um a sort of it's not very Hollywoody, it's not that entertainment, if you know what I mean.

[44:34] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah, yeah.

[44:35] Ben Rimalower: And which it which is, I think what makes it so kind of different from sort of uh I can't really think of a uh Hollywood documentary that would be kind of comparable, but you know, it there's an edge to it. I think that's why we love it so much.

[44:51] Dublin_Zoetrope: And I know whenever it's well it's a people. I mean, when you think did you did you see that film um Tea with the Dames about Maggie Smith and Yes, so good.

[45:00] Ben Rimalower: I mean that that was a DVD extra. It wasn't a documentary at all.

[45:03] Dublin_Zoetrope: I mean, you know, whereas this has that kind of um, you know, I think it's what what makes it interesting really.

[45:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[45:11] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, also, I mean, I think, you know, what I was realizing watching this is in the beginning when I was just like kind of surprised by how immediately thrilled I was to be watching this again when I really thought I was gonna like be annoyed to have to like slog through it, you know.

[45:26] Ben Rimalower: Um I'm not not be only as I said before, because I had watched it when it first came out, which was not that long ago, and it felt like I felt like I collected it, like I digested it. I had no need to watch it again.

[45:39] Dublin_Zoetrope: And and but what I realized, and it was, I was thinking about this in terms of other things Daniel had put on our list of possibilities, whether with you or another Cornstream or the Elaine Stitch documentary and the Joan Rivers documentary.

[45:51] Ben Rimalower: And I had similar feeling about those, that I had already like gotten everything I wanted to get out of watching them.

[45:57] Dublin_Zoetrope: So why would I I wouldn't really be excited to like spend an hour or two having to rewatch it now? But what I realized, and I think it would be true for those also, is because of what you say, Mark, because it has that edge of not being a DVD extra, of actually being like really like a little bit like a I don't know if the right expression is fly on the wall, but you really do feel like you're spending time truly with these people as they truly are, getting really sort of a a taste of them of what they're really like and and of what they're of what makes them tick.

[46:30] Ben Rimalower: And and for and I think it would be the same for me with Elaine and Joan's documentaries, in that um it feels like hanging out with them.

[46:38] Dublin_Zoetrope: And they're these fascinating people whose work was so important.

[46:42] Ben Rimalower: I can say without cleric without confirming, I know I can speak for both of you, that the work of these women is so important to who we have become as people ourselves, and uh as strong black women, and so therefore uh they're always with you.

[46:58] Dublin_Zoetrope: And so to get to go hang out with them in that sense is actually like a treat, as opposed to for oh here's an example you were looking for, Mark. A documentary that's not like that, besides that's entertainment, would be the Carol Channing documentary.

[47:11] Ben Rimalower: Have you seen that?

[47:13] Dublin_Zoetrope: I haven't think I have actually.

[47:15] Ben Rimalower: I'm kind of no, I haven'm ashamed.

[47:16] Dublin_Zoetrope: Have you seen it, Daniel?

[47:18] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[47:19] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[47:19] Dublin_Zoetrope: Do you agree?

[47:20] I mean, it's a good movie, it's a great fun thing to watch, but it's it's definitely like a it's it doesn't get her humanity in the way that the Joan one does, or the or this does, or for you know, whatever.

[47:30] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[47:30] Dublin_Zoetrope: And I I mean, I know uh when Carrie, I think first saw a cut of this, she was kind of taken aback by how intimate it was and then she kind of had to be convinced and she finally, you know, agreed that it was that was how it needed to be. But you know, it shows um it shows them like when she goes over with that souffle, it shows them like digging in with two forks sitting on the step of Debbie's living room.

[47:54] Ben Rimalower: Like it's just no glamour whatsoever.

[47:57] Dublin_Zoetrope: Even though, as Carrie says, Debbie's laying on the floor in a very Debbie movie star way. Um and then it shows you all around the house. I mean, on Debbie's coffee table, which you know I paused on and zoomed in. It's like there's like a holy Bible on top of like some book about Noel Coward with like an ashtray for Carrie with like, you know, a bottle of Listerine or whatever. It's like I mean, I'm sure Debbie like cleaned up or whatever before they came over, but it really is just a glimpse into who they were and um how they lived together. People forget about Debbie's sort of uh religious faith. I mean, she was a Nazarene and you know, grew up in this almost in a sect practically in in Texas or somewhere, I think. And and they forbid people from even go I think they forbade people from going to movies, they forbade everything. So it's kind of she does have that puritanical streak.

[48:46] Dublin_Zoetrope: And it's sort of I often think, you know, she kind of had nearly uh maybe like an enfant terrible sort of innocence. I mean, where she's that scene where she says about um, you know, wanting Carrie to sleep with a gay chorus boy from Irene and that she would supervise it and sort of, you know.

[49:03] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god.

[49:04] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's just it's I'm I don't want to say it's kind of tactless, but it is sort of that kind of uh it's an innocence and it's a a lovely thing, really. I mean it's an innocent you know, still, I mean, she would have been what in her fifties then. I mean, it still just shows that she did have that kind of, you know, that Tammy sort of I mean she sort of became Tammy in a way, didn't she? You know, it was her uh that kind of talk to me about Tammy.

[49:29] Daniel Nolen: I've never seen it, and I'm I now I realize every time I watch this, I'm like, what's the deal with Tammy?

[49:34] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, it was her, it was her one kind of hit as a song. I mean, I don't think I've even ever seen the they made a few of them. I think they made another one with Connie Stevens and another one with or well, I don't know whether they they made a series of Tammy films in the 50s and 60s. But um but it was the hit record uh for for Debbie which annoyed Eddie Fisher seemingly that you know she had a but really though when you think of Debbie's films and you think of sort of singing in the rain and maybe the unthinkable Molly Brown. I mean, what else do you think of? I mean, you think of the the single for Tammy, maybe you think of um I don't know, Charlotte's Webb, maybe I I mean that isn't it?

[50:10] Ben Rimalower: Right, yeah, good.

[50:12] Dublin_Zoetrope: Or I mean Will and Grace. I mean, honestly, like we're all to go, you know. That that that is the thing. I mean, it isn't like Elizabeth or whoever that you have this sort of content, you don't think, you know, National Velvet and then Place in the Sun and uh giant and you don't work your way through. I mean, it is very kind of uh it's funny, Mark, you just made me think of Liza because and I would never have thought about this before because I always think of this sort of tragedy of Liza that she had this sort of like meteoric explosion in Hollywood, and then immediately it was over. And um she really, in a sense, she never worked again, and um she spent the rest of her career touring essentially the same act.

And um, but then it's kind of like Debbie, sort of, except that it was just Debbie was at the era in Hollywood when But the thing about Debbie is though that I think is so interesting, is that you know, when she made those, I don't know, she made like a whatever happened to Baby Jane film with Shelley Winters in the 70s, uh, whatever happened to whatever I can't remember the name of it, but it was one of those uh sort of schlock horror films, and she didn't make another film for 25 years, and yet she was, you know, only a woman in her 40s was finished. When you think of the kind of films Shirley McLean was doing at the same time, yeah, right. Debbie absolutely could have done. And you know, Debbie or Shirley always resented Debbie for getting the role in Molly Brown, which she thought was kind of you know her because it was the only it was the only time Debbie was uh up for an Oscar, actually, was for for that.

[51:32] Mark: And why do you say that Debbie absolutely could have done the films Shirley McLean did? Why are you confident about that?

[51:56] Dublin_Zoetrope: Because she's a great dramatic actress, and people forget that. People think she's I don't know that.

[52:02] Daniel Nolen: Tell me, I didn't know that.

[52:04] Dublin_Zoetrope: Have you never seen um a catered affair? The the uh one with uh Betty Davis and uh I've only seen the sh the the shitty musical with Faith Prince and Leslie Crenter. Yeah, well that's quite a an interest, you know. She plays sort of the um Brooklyn uh Brooklyn daughter who's once the mother wants the big white wedding. I mean, it is a very kind of you know, kitchen sink sort of uh pretends to be Marty sort of film. Really?

[52:29] Ben Rimalower: Oh, oh you made me want to watch it.

[52:32] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, I suppose you well, it's okay, but but I mean she's good in that. Uh and uh certainly, you know, um I don't know, I d I don't think really they kind of knew. I mean, obviously she was the girl next door at MGM and always played that's kind of but it's it just shows how people were so typecast and didn't get a chance to do those more interesting roles. And you know, d Debbie has said that she would have loved to have done Shirley's role in The Turning Point. I mean, she wanted to play herself in postcards from the edge, but Mike Nichols didn't think you know anyone would buy it. Right.

[53:05] Ben Rimalower: Some wonderful remark like that. But uh, you know, it is um and I and I think she was a bit upset at the portrayal that of Shirley that in postcards too, you know, the scene where she um pours the vodka into the blender, and um you know, different things that I think I think people forget that Debbie and Carrie were estranged for something like 15 years in the eighties and nineties. You know, you wouldn't think

[53:27] Daniel Nolen: I didn't know that.

[53:29] Dublin_Zoetrope: I didn't know that either. Uh fifth are you sure it was that long? Well, it certainly was a little while where Debbie won or where Carrie definitely wanted to get out of the sh of the shadow of Debbie. I mean, you know, this Debbie in her biography tells wonderful stories of you know when um when Carrie didn't show up to the wedding of Debbie and her third husband, you know, she got A she got Ava Gardner to, you know, locate her in a London hotel where she was sort of you know, passed out on Percadan or whatever. Which I think which I think is a great thing if you can get your mother to, you know, find Ava Gardner and get you out of your uh Can you imagine Ava Gardner does the best interventions in Hollywood.

[54:10] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[54:10] Dublin_Zoetrope: Go to Ava, she's your gal. But Ava was wonderful too. I mean, she confused the um ladies' room for the lift in the writs in Madrid and was sort of banned from life because she you know, she was a terrible alcoholic. But you can't spell Ava without AA.

[54:26] Daniel Nolen: That's right I'm just looking on it we're gonna have material I think really alcoholism is the great uh common threat thread with all these women I mean let's face it I don't think Glenn is an alcoholic but you know it is the uh the base sort of uh thing we go for when we choose these divas to worship well one of them anyway well the large anyway I mean it's you know it it's like you said the addictive personality you know it's that it's that that craving always for more of everything.

[54:26] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah I agree um well I uh I I would always crave more of you Mark I think we'll have to have you back to talk about some other some other thing in the future I know I think this episode has been well I mean you were wonderful but I feel I flopped on it I you know I was I was rambling and I didn't say one coherent thing for the whole hour we were on please rambling is our brand absolutely you're perfectly coherent it's just that fucking accent's so annoying but otherwise you were divine.

[54:26] Dublin_Zoetrope: Oh thank you well this accent is so fake anyway I felt I was you know going to lapse into the harsh tones of my native Dublin when I was asked something I didn't want to ask do it no I'm only joking but um it was great and I hope the sound isn't too bad for your listeners I mean uh they're lucky to get to hear from you at all they would they would crawl belly deep through hell they've been yes they've they've heard much worse that's for sure oh I know well um wait should we play our game with Mark oh yes, we must.

[56:01] Daniel Nolen: Okay, well. Do you know our game, Dolly Concert Kill?

[56:05] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah.

[56:05] Daniel Nolen: Yes, I don't.

[56:06] Dublin_Zoetrope: Okay, so uh I guess I mean we have to do Debbie.

[56:13] Daniel Nolen: Mm-hmm.

[56:13] Dublin_Zoetrope: Shirley. And uh Glenn.

[56:18] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[56:20] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, when I do this game and Shirley comes up, I mean I do say kill her because she'd come back with her past lives.

[56:26] Daniel Nolen: That's right.

[56:27] Dublin_Zoetrope: That's right. Clever. So I don't I don't know. I think Glenn would be so earnest in Hello Dolly. I mean, you'd be waiting for her to find the one laugh in the whole show. Um, I don't know. I mean, I think Debbie kind of was a bit long. I'd like to see Glenn do a concert actually. And Debbie is Dolly and Shirley. I mean, yeah, I agree with that. Interesting, interesting up close and personal.

[56:54] Ben Rimalower: Oh.

[56:56] Daniel Nolen: All right. Um, well, do you have anything? Obviously, we all our listeners worship you and they know where they can find you on Instagram, but are you expanding the brand anytime soon? Are you branching out into other uh platforms?

[57:09] Dublin_Zoetrope: Well, I was going to try and I was sort of half thinking, would I you know, start a podcast? Because it does seem like the next step for sort of tragic accounts like mine, but after doing this interview, I think I'll never do one again. I was so nervous.

[57:23] Ben Rimalower: No, you definitely should do one. That'd be fab.

[57:25] Daniel Nolen: And you could have us on it.

[57:26] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah. Yeah, you could have you could have um Shirley on it. Um you've wet my appetite. I want to read is that blog still up that you wrote before you had the insta?

[57:38] Dublin_Zoetrope: No, thank God it was well, it isn't. I should re- I should um reboot it maybe. I just hate that name though, Dublin Zerotope. It's such an awful name. I don't know why I well, I know where I got it from. But I just Well, I know you and I have had this conversation. I think you should change it to your real name.

[57:55] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I know. Well, what happened was a few weeks ago I did ask sort of every uh prestige gay that follows me, uh, should I change it? And they all said, oh no, keep it, it's your brand. But I wish I asked because they are right. All the prestige gays were right. You should keep as your brand.

[58:11] Ben Rimalower: I say I say change it to your real name. It's it will be much easier and it makes more sense going forward uh if you're wanting to do more.

[58:20] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yeah. But you know, I'll I'll I'll let that's up that's between you and God and Shirley McLean.

[58:25] Daniel Nolen: Oh, tell us, tell us you just said you know where you got the name. Where did you get the name?

[58:31] Dublin_Zoetrope: Oh, I plagiarized it from American Zotrope, as you said at the beginning. You know Sophia Coppola's company. I mean, talk about sort of a still. Talk about a sort of random uh name, but it reminds me of Zoetrim, which is a weight loss supplement in my country. Um I I don't know how many calories you're allowed a day, but it's less than they were getting in the Warsaw ghetto.

[58:54] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god.

[58:55] Dublin_Zoetrope: Wait, so you live in in Dublin.

[58:58] Daniel Nolen: Well, yeah, I mean, I don't like the Dublin either because you know the glentrification. So I wanted to change that. But um anyway, I know I it was a lovely having me on. I'm so surprised. And I I I feel no, but I feel as though I should say, now we'll sing them all and we'll stay all night or something. Because I yeah.

[59:18] Ben Rimalower: Do you do have an encore prepared?

[59:20] Dublin_Zoetrope: No, I did. I I've surrounded by all these notes. I haven't said a thing of them. And the other thing is I thought this was going to be a video. I'm sitting here, sort of dressed lovely, lovely lights. And I thought well, I know, I know we were obviously it will go out as a podcast, but I thought, you know, maybe I would see you as I was we were talking. And I've said none of these notes I have, so I don't know. But I'm very grateful for you to have me on.

[59:44] Daniel Nolen: Was there any I only wrapped it up because I knew you had said you wanted to keep it to 45 minutes, and we were way over that. But do you want tell us everything else you have?

[59:52] Dublin_Zoetrope: Oh no, I mean nothing really. I mean it I think it has all been mentioned. I but it was lovely being on.

[59:59] Ben Rimalower: Thank you so much for joining us.

[1:00:02] Dublin_Zoetrope: Yes.

[1:00:03] Ben Rimalower: Well, thank you, and thank you to all your listeners.

[1:00:06] Daniel Nolen: And um, this is the speech that Glenn had prepared and never gave to one rambling.

[1:00:13] Ben Rimalower: So thank you.

[1:00:15] Daniel Nolen: Thanks for listening to Ben Rimmelauer's broken records on Broadway World. For more episodes, visit Broadway World, iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever podcasts do be.

[1:00:26] Ben Rimalower: And be sure to check out our new twice-weekly live stream video chat. Tuesday, Thursday, April, August.

[1:00:32] Daniel Nolen: This episode was edited by me, Daniel Nolen. Thanks to Emmy winning composer and lyricist Lance Horn for the broken records theme song.

[1:00:39] Ben Rimalower: Follow us both, Ben Remelauer and Daniel Nolen on all y'all's socials. That's Ben Remelauer, B-E-N R I M A L O W E R.

[1:00:49] Daniel Nolen: And that's Nolan with an E, not Nolan with an A. Because Nolan with an A isn't it.